Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Body Bags With Joseph Scott Morgan: Mariticide in Ohio - The Case of Dr. Christopher Osborn

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Body Bags With Joseph Scott Morgan: Mariticide in Ohio - The Case of Dr. Christopher Osborn · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:08
Speaker 1: Bodybags with Joseph Scott Morgan. In this old world, there's
0:21
Speaker 1: not too many things that I value more than sleep.
0:25
Speaker 1: It seems like the older I get, the more I
0:27
Speaker 1: like it. That time that you can snuggle down your bed,
0:32
Speaker 1: be warm, comfortable, forget the day that you've left behind,
0:37
Speaker 1: and hopefully waked the next morning and be rested. But
0:45
Speaker 1: for Christopher Osborne, he never woke up and went to
0:51
Speaker 1: bed one night, and maybe, just maybe the last thing
0:56
Speaker 1: that he heard was that hammered on the thirty eight
1:01
Speaker 1: special Revolver in his life ended. Today, we're going to
1:09
Speaker 1: talk about the home set of doctor Christopher Osborne. I'm
1:16
Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is Body Backs with me.
1:25
Speaker 1: Today is Jackie Howard, executive producer of Crime Stories when
1:30
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace, Jackie, I don't know about you, but I
1:34
Speaker 1: sure do like bedtime. I love laying down my bed,
1:38
Speaker 1: pulling the covers up over my head and just drifting
1:41
Speaker 1: off into slumber. But doctor Osborne, he paid price. He
1:46
Speaker 1: paid price for being married to Holly Osborne. I have
1:48
Speaker 1: to say that because she ended his life as he
1:50
Speaker 1: laid there sleeping. This is a case that just kind
1:54
Speaker 1: of boggles the mind, because you have a crime and
1:58
Speaker 1: a perpetrator who said she really doesn't remember a lot
2:01
Speaker 1: of it. In fact, the police became aware of what
2:04
Speaker 1: happened after Holly Osborne called her father to tell him
2:10
Speaker 1: what had happened, and then the father ended up calling
2:14
Speaker 1: nine one one, and during the phone call to nine
2:17
Speaker 1: one one, her dad revealed that she was drunk when
2:21
Speaker 1: she called him. Police get there and Holly Osborne was
2:27
Speaker 1: not in I don't want to say she's not in
2:29
Speaker 1: her faculties because that's not the way to say it,
2:32
Speaker 1: but she is not sober. Police find two guns next
2:38
Speaker 1: to the bed, and there is Joe. There's so many
2:41
Speaker 1: ways that we could go at this case, So let's
2:43
Speaker 1: start with if you were laying in the bed and
2:47
Speaker 1: you were shot, the bed itself is obviously going to
2:51
Speaker 1: be your evidence bonanza because the blood that drains from
2:56
Speaker 1: the body is going to pull on the bed as
3:00
Speaker 1: well as any gunshot residue, any fragments. I mean, plethora,
3:06
Speaker 1: plea plethora. Yeah, you're right, Jackie. Some of the most
3:10
Speaker 1: interesting cases that I've worked comicides have involved beds and bedding.
3:16
Speaker 1: I think one of the cases that really jumps to
3:18
Speaker 1: mind for me actually had a case where a swat
3:21
Speaker 1: team had come into a home and Letty was lying
3:25
Speaker 1: on the bed and she reached for a gun and
3:28
Speaker 1: she was lying on the bed or the door bust open.
3:32
Speaker 1: The problem was this, she was laid on a water bed.
3:35
Speaker 1: They hit her with a fully automatic weapon and there
3:40
Speaker 1: were bullets all over the place, and not just all
3:44
Speaker 1: over the place, they were floating in a pool of
3:48
Speaker 1: water that she was in turn floating in because the
3:51
Speaker 1: bed had been perforated. And in this case you actually
3:54
Speaker 1: have a perforation of the mattress, which from one perspective,
3:58
Speaker 1: is really handy for forensic investigators. And let me kind
4:02
Speaker 1: of tie this back to what happens in the crime
4:05
Speaker 1: lab when we're test firing weapons. I think that people
4:08
Speaker 1: might not know how we capture bullets at the ballistics laboratories,
4:13
Speaker 1: but generally one of two ways. We either fire a
4:18
Speaker 1: test fire weapon into a tank of water and bullet
4:23
Speaker 1: will float down and it's caught in a trade down there.
4:26
Speaker 1: And the beauty of firing into water is that it
4:29
Speaker 1: allows the bullet to remain in kind of a pristine state.
4:32
Speaker 1: It's not passing through some kind of solid object. It's
4:36
Speaker 1: going through a fluid now other places. Actually, when you
4:42
Speaker 1: fire a bullet to test fire, it goes into cotton,
4:45
Speaker 1: and again it's it's not I don't think that it
4:47
Speaker 1: would be as preferable as water. But still the bullet
4:51
Speaker 1: maintains its integrity, if you will, the physical integrity. And
4:56
Speaker 1: in this particular case, one of the rounds actually did
4:59
Speaker 1: pass through osborne into the mattress. So when crime scene
5:03
Speaker 1: investigators were there, you know, kind of digging around is
5:07
Speaker 1: you have to do, because you can see where the
5:09
Speaker 1: hole is in the mattress, they would have to track
5:12
Speaker 1: that round determine what the trajectory is. You know, you
5:15
Speaker 1: place a trajectory rod in the hole first, and you
5:18
Speaker 1: take a photograph of that, or use a simulator in
5:22
Speaker 1: the room like a Pharaoh device. They can shoot lasers
5:25
Speaker 1: in the room and try to recreate kind of a
5:27
Speaker 1: three D environment with this thing. And you would do that,
5:31
Speaker 1: you know, to visualize it, and then you cut down
5:33
Speaker 1: into that mattress and retrieve that spent round and hopefully
5:37
Speaker 1: it will be intact. And you know, the end game
5:39
Speaker 1: here is to try to match that round up with
5:43
Speaker 1: a weapon that it originated from. One of the big
5:47
Speaker 1: problems though, is that the body in a case like
5:50
Speaker 1: this becomes what's referred to as an intermediate target. That
5:53
Speaker 1: means that the body is in between the end of
5:58
Speaker 1: the muzzle and the final resting spot of the projectile,
6:03
Speaker 1: and so as it's passing through the body, the projectile
6:07
Speaker 1: can become deformed, misshapen, that sort of thing, and it
6:10
Speaker 1: can also fragment too. It will not look the same
6:13
Speaker 1: as it does when you're testified in the lab, so
6:15
Speaker 1: it won't be as pristine. But it's better, certainly going
6:19
Speaker 1: into a mattress than it is striking a concrete floor,
6:23
Speaker 1: because you have so much evidence at that point to process.
6:28
Speaker 1: Start from the beginning, Joe, you walk in that room,
6:31
Speaker 1: you see a body on a bed, you see guns,
6:34
Speaker 1: you see blood. Where do you start? Do you start
6:39
Speaker 1: with securing the guns that you find near the scene?
6:43
Speaker 1: Do you check to make sure the victim is alive
6:47
Speaker 1: and need medical help? Where do you actually start? Great question,
6:52
Speaker 1: because the first thing that you do, look, forensics is great.
6:56
Speaker 1: It's fantastic, it really is. But in every single case,
7:01
Speaker 1: the health and safety of the public trump's everything else.
7:05
Speaker 1: Okay here, people, many times cops in particular that the
7:09
Speaker 1: work cases where they've had the firefighters, first responders that
7:13
Speaker 1: will run onto the scene, or the paramedics that will
7:15
Speaker 1: show up, and their quote unquote, according to investigators, they're
7:19
Speaker 1: trampling on evidence in this environment. Okay, well, their goal,
7:24
Speaker 1: and this is important to remember, their goal at that
7:27
Speaker 1: moment in time is not to preserve evidence, is to
7:31
Speaker 1: preserve life, right, And so you have to assess the
7:35
Speaker 1: status at that time would be their patient. Me, I'm
7:40
Speaker 1: a death investigator. I'm going to refer to the individuals
7:43
Speaker 1: as a decedent. Okay, that's not the stage that you're at.
7:47
Speaker 1: At this point, you have to determine the status of
7:49
Speaker 1: the patient. Is it possible that this individual could still
7:53
Speaker 1: be respiring, that they could still have a heartbeat, And
7:56
Speaker 1: they're going to assess them at that moment in time.
7:58
Speaker 1: They'll get out to steaths, they might even hook up
8:01
Speaker 1: an EKG, a portable EKG, and see if there's any
8:04
Speaker 1: evidence of life at all. But in this case, Jackie,
8:08
Speaker 1: and you know, you really mentioned something just a second ago.
8:11
Speaker 1: When Holly Osborne had this awareness that her husband was dead,
8:18
Speaker 1: her first inclination was not to die none eleven. It
8:23
Speaker 1: was to call her daddy. At that point, in time. Now,
8:29
Speaker 1: one of the major problems with it is if you
8:31
Speaker 1: don't get EMTs saddled up and headed in your way
8:36
Speaker 1: in the quickest manner possible, this person's going to die.
8:41
Speaker 1: And so I think that if you look at this
8:44
Speaker 1: from not just let's just don't consider the evidence, let's
8:47
Speaker 1: consider what that implies. Right, that you're aware that your
8:52
Speaker 1: husband has sustained gunshot wounds, like I would assume you
8:56
Speaker 1: would be aware of that, But yeah, you're not calling
9:02
Speaker 1: nine to eleven, And that shows kind of a callousness,
9:04
Speaker 1: doesn't it. I mean, just think about that just for
9:07
Speaker 1: a second. I don't know about everybody else listening, but
9:09
Speaker 1: I gotta tell you, if someone has the idea that
9:13
Speaker 1: I've been shot, I don't want them to call their
9:15
Speaker 1: next of kent. I want them to get on the
9:18
Speaker 1: phone and I want to hear ambulances in the distance.
9:21
Speaker 1: I want to hear the sirens and if I can
9:23
Speaker 1: still see, I want to see those lights flashing outside
9:25
Speaker 1: my window. That's not the case with this. She called
9:28
Speaker 1: her dad. Her dad called police. So when he made
9:32
Speaker 1: that call and the dispatcher sent out the alert to
9:37
Speaker 1: all the appropriate people personnel who would have gotten there first.
9:41
Speaker 1: Who would have been the personnel that nine one one
9:44
Speaker 1: would have informed first, Well, there's gonna be a couple
9:47
Speaker 1: of folks. The way this kind of breaks down is
9:49
Speaker 1: that you you know, I think people think, well, paramedics
9:53
Speaker 1: are going to get there first. Not most of the time.
9:55
Speaker 1: You know, who generally shows up and sometimes they will
9:58
Speaker 1: arrive at the same time. I'm always fascinated by this
10:00
Speaker 1: because when I was a little boy and don't want
10:02
Speaker 1: to be police officer, I'm gonna be a firefighter. I
10:04
Speaker 1: love those trucks. Fire stations generally have paramedics that work
10:09
Speaker 1: there as well. Now they're firefighters, and they will be
10:12
Speaker 1: on a truck that's smaller than a regular fire truck, okay,
10:16
Speaker 1: and they will they're standing by right, they hop in
10:20
Speaker 1: the truck and off they go. Man, I mean they're
10:22
Speaker 1: just blasting. Well. The police might be handling another call,
10:26
Speaker 1: for instance, and they're going to get there as quickly
10:29
Speaker 1: as they can. But the guys in the first responders
10:32
Speaker 1: in those fire trucks, and like I said, it's generally
10:35
Speaker 1: smaller one, they'll roll up at the scene themselves and
10:39
Speaker 1: many times they have to let themselves in. And you know,
10:41
Speaker 1: people often talk about how dangerous it is for police
10:44
Speaker 1: officers to go to domestic calls. Think about an unarmed
10:49
Speaker 1: firefighter first responder showing up and they not most of
10:54
Speaker 1: the time. There are certain jurisdictions, but not most of
10:56
Speaker 1: the time. Firefighters EMTs are not armed, okay, they're not
11:01
Speaker 1: wearing a side arm. So they're going into an environment
11:05
Speaker 1: where there has been gunfire. There's been gun play, okay,
11:08
Speaker 1: and their goal is to try to determine what has
11:12
Speaker 1: happened in this environment and try to save somebody. Just
11:14
Speaker 1: imagine how horrific this is. If you're going into this
11:17
Speaker 1: environment and you're walking in the door, you've got your
11:21
Speaker 1: medical kit with you, maybe you're dragging a stretcher behind you,
11:26
Speaker 1: and you're walking in and it's a person that's bleeding
11:29
Speaker 1: out and guess who's standing there, the perpetrator. And guess
11:34
Speaker 1: what else you mentioned it just a second ago. You've
11:37
Speaker 1: got two weapons in there. You've got two weapons that
11:40
Speaker 1: are in there, and you've got a person obviously that
11:44
Speaker 1: has had a part in the death of this individual.
11:47
Speaker 1: Was to say for these defenseless firefighters at this moment
11:50
Speaker 1: time that they're not at risk too. That's why they're
11:53
Speaker 1: so brave. I mean, they really are. When you begin
11:55
Speaker 1: to think about what their job is to make an
11:58
Speaker 1: assessment on a patient and try to determine if in
12:00
Speaker 1: fact there's any hope whatsoever that they're going to survive,
12:05
Speaker 1: and then it's absolutely terrifying. I've had any number of
12:09
Speaker 1: friends that are first responders that have told me just
12:11
Speaker 1: horror stories where they're having to wrestle with people, they're
12:14
Speaker 1: being threatened. I've had friends that have been shot at.
12:16
Speaker 1: I had a friend of mine that was stabbed. It
12:18
Speaker 1: was a first responder, and it's a tough, tough job.
12:21
Speaker 1: So as the first responders get there, no matter who
12:24
Speaker 1: it is, whether it's a firefighters, whether it's premedics, or
12:28
Speaker 1: whether it is the police, because they have to go
12:31
Speaker 1: in and assess the scene. So basically what you're telling
12:34
Speaker 1: me is is it really no matter who gets there first,
12:37
Speaker 1: your crime scene is going to be damaged in some way.
12:41
Speaker 1: So how do you figure it out? Here's kind of
12:44
Speaker 1: an interesting part to all of this with firefighters, and
12:48
Speaker 1: I note that if there are any in our audience today,
12:51
Speaker 1: they'll they'll understand this. Firefighters many times have to have
12:56
Speaker 1: get this. They have to be fingerprinted and I don't
12:59
Speaker 1: mean like in order to get their job. They will
13:02
Speaker 1: literally be printed in order to eliminate their fingerprints that
13:06
Speaker 1: a scene. Let's say, for instance, they're not wearing gloves
13:09
Speaker 1: when they roll in and they touch something. And also,
13:11
Speaker 1: here's something else that's interesting. What do you have if
13:14
Speaker 1: you have an individual that has sustained multiple gunshot ones
13:18
Speaker 1: where you just don't have defects in the body, You've
13:21
Speaker 1: probably got to copy this amount of blood. And guess
13:23
Speaker 1: what happens with the firefighters when they're trying to make
13:25
Speaker 1: their way to the body. Well, they're gonna step in it.
13:27
Speaker 1: They're gonna step in it, and they don't have an
13:29
Speaker 1: awareness of this. They're trying to get to the person
13:31
Speaker 1: to render age. So when the firefighter actually steps in
13:34
Speaker 1: the blood, they will transfer that bloody bootprint because most
13:39
Speaker 1: of them wear boots like this, these kind of still
13:42
Speaker 1: toad boots that protect their feet and all this stuff,
13:44
Speaker 1: because they go into these really harsh and hostile environments
13:47
Speaker 1: and they're going to transfer that print of that shoeprint
13:51
Speaker 1: to the floor. I've been on scenes many times where
13:55
Speaker 1: we'll ask the firefighters first responders to take their boots
13:59
Speaker 1: off and we'll set them up and we'll take photos
14:01
Speaker 1: of them. We'll demonstrate they've got blood on the souls
14:04
Speaker 1: of them, and you can pick up on the tread
14:06
Speaker 1: patterns and all of that stuff, so that if it
14:08
Speaker 1: comes up later on down the road, you can compare
14:11
Speaker 1: those prints that you see at the scene to prints
14:15
Speaker 1: that are left behind by the bloody boots that they
14:18
Speaker 1: were wearing at the time. And it's a matter of elimination.
14:21
Speaker 1: So from Jump Street, your scene is contaminated. It's contaminated
14:26
Speaker 1: before it actually becomes an official crime scene, and all
14:30
Speaker 1: of that has to be taken into consideration. Here's another
14:34
Speaker 1: fascinating part about first responders. Unlike even the patrol officer
14:40
Speaker 1: that's out there that shows up at the scene and
14:42
Speaker 1: kind of has security and they're in control of everything,
14:45
Speaker 1: guests who are the first eyes on the scene, well,
14:48
Speaker 1: it's going to be the first responder and they'll hear
14:51
Speaker 1: and see things that other people will not hear and see.
14:55
Speaker 1: Can you imagine what it's like to be a first
14:57
Speaker 1: responder and you show up and you've got a spouse
15:01
Speaker 1: that is just talking out of their head, and you
15:03
Speaker 1: know they're saying things like I didn't mean to shoot them,
15:06
Speaker 1: or the gun accidentally went off, or I'd had enough
15:10
Speaker 1: of him, or whatever the case might be. Well, they
15:13
Speaker 1: hear that, they hear that, and guess what, they're not
15:16
Speaker 1: police officers, So they're going to include that in their report,
15:19
Speaker 1: and that report can be subpoenaed and they'll be called
15:22
Speaker 1: to the stand. The firefighter or the mt they can
15:25
Speaker 1: actually hear this loved one or the perpetrator, as the
15:28
Speaker 1: case might be, actually hear them make the statement, and
15:31
Speaker 1: that's going to be committed into evidence. So they play
15:33
Speaker 1: like this really key role in what they see and
15:37
Speaker 1: what they hear when they first roll up at a scene. Okay,
15:40
Speaker 1: so you talked about bloody footprints, but one of the
15:43
Speaker 1: other things that you're gonna see, especially on a bloody
15:46
Speaker 1: crime scene, if they're trying to revive the victim, it's
15:51
Speaker 1: going to disturb your blood patterns. Instead of droplets and
15:55
Speaker 1: spatters and smears, you're gonna have drag marks. You're going
15:58
Speaker 1: to have I don't know, I don't know all the
16:01
Speaker 1: terminology for them, but you're going to have marks that
16:04
Speaker 1: were not there caused by the actual incident. So how
16:10
Speaker 1: do you, as a crime scene investigator tell the difference
16:14
Speaker 1: in something that was caused by your crime and then
16:18
Speaker 1: caused by your first responders when they pulled the body
16:22
Speaker 1: off the bed. Just picture this. Let's say, for instance,
16:25
Speaker 1: you've got an individual that has been shot in the
16:27
Speaker 1: chest okay and around, has punctured their long. Well, what
16:33
Speaker 1: do what do they do? What do first responders do?
16:36
Speaker 1: If they're trying to re establish a heartbeat, they're trying
16:38
Speaker 1: to get them to respire. Well, they're doing chess compressions,
16:41
Speaker 1: aren't they. Well, they they covered the wound. Let's say,
16:45
Speaker 1: for instance, the old term as a sucking chess wound.
16:47
Speaker 1: If you have a wound that penetrates the chess cavity
16:49
Speaker 1: and it goes into the long they'll be taking air
16:52
Speaker 1: into that space, the thoracic region there, and they develop
16:57
Speaker 1: what's called it pneumothorax, which means that the is beginning
17:00
Speaker 1: to collapse. So they'll try to seal that off with
17:03
Speaker 1: plastic and covered up. But then they have to start
17:05
Speaker 1: doing chess compressions. And guess what all I have to
17:08
Speaker 1: do is think back to that image from the crime
17:11
Speaker 1: scene with Travis Alexander where we had bloody aspirt all
17:15
Speaker 1: over the sync where he spit it out after Jodieires
17:18
Speaker 1: had stabbed him. So many times, the same thing kind
17:21
Speaker 1: of happens when you're doing chess compressions. The individual will
17:24
Speaker 1: be spitting up blood. Well, that's bloody aspirt that's coming out,
17:27
Speaker 1: and sometimes that can appear to be like medium velocity
17:30
Speaker 1: blood staining and so it lands all over the place. Well,
17:33
Speaker 1: how do you separate that from something that was generated
17:37
Speaker 1: as a result of an attack. Well, the best way
17:40
Speaker 1: to do it is to speak to the responders what
17:43
Speaker 1: was going on, Why you were doing the chess compressions?
17:46
Speaker 1: Was he spitting up blood? Because that kind of blood,
17:49
Speaker 1: it has a different kind of appearances. It's heavily oxygenated.
17:53
Speaker 1: It will have kind of a frothy appearance to it
17:55
Speaker 1: many times, and you have to try to understand is
17:58
Speaker 1: that the source of that blood? Is it? Because they
18:00
Speaker 1: were doing the chest compressions and then you talked about
18:03
Speaker 1: the movement of the body to try to examine the body,
18:06
Speaker 1: because you know that's that's part of assessment. You're trying
18:09
Speaker 1: to triage somebody a scene or do the initial examination.
18:13
Speaker 1: The EMTs are not thinking, oh my gosh, I gotta
18:15
Speaker 1: leave this body in its pristine state, so that the detectives,
18:19
Speaker 1: if this person dies, can appreciate them in this original position. No,
18:23
Speaker 1: they're not doing that. They're rolling this person over, they're
18:25
Speaker 1: checking them for injuries, they're checking them for signs of life.
18:28
Speaker 1: They're going to manipulate the body. Just think of it.
18:31
Speaker 1: When you go to the doctor. The doctor doesn't have
18:34
Speaker 1: you stay in one static position. They're going to move
18:36
Speaker 1: around you to listen to your your heart sounds and
18:38
Speaker 1: you're you're breathing the on your backside, on between your
18:41
Speaker 1: shoulder blades, and they're going to put the stethoscope over
18:44
Speaker 1: your chest. They'll have you laid down, do all kinds
18:46
Speaker 1: of things. They're going to manipulate you in that circumstance.
18:51
Speaker 1: The individual they're responding to is not unlike that. They
18:55
Speaker 1: are a patient, they're not a deceit. At that moment,
19:16
Speaker 1: I cannot tell you how happy I I got to
19:18
Speaker 1: talk about EMTs. There's some of my favorite people in
19:20
Speaker 1: the world because they are so self sacrificing in their profession.
19:25
Speaker 1: They know they were corbel hours there. They're there for us,
19:28
Speaker 1: night and day, and they certainly showed up on this
19:30
Speaker 1: scene for doctor Osborne. But of course it was to
19:34
Speaker 1: no avail because, as was determined, he was in fact
19:38
Speaker 1: dead at the scene. Doctor Osborne was shot, and we
19:43
Speaker 1: know that he was shot by his wife by the
19:46
Speaker 1: nature of her call to her father and his call
19:49
Speaker 1: to the police. So when police get there, we know
19:55
Speaker 1: that they saw two guns and the defendant had been shot.
20:00
Speaker 1: If he had been shot more than once, do you
20:04
Speaker 1: get now here comes my stupid question of the day.
20:07
Speaker 1: But there's a reason I'm asking it like this, so
20:09
Speaker 1: don't laugh at me. Are you going to see more
20:13
Speaker 1: blood the more times that you're shot or does it
20:16
Speaker 1: depend on where you were shot? We know Christopher Osborne
20:20
Speaker 1: was shot three times in the head, so how much
20:25
Speaker 1: blood there ends up being outside the body? Does it
20:29
Speaker 1: depend on where you were shot or how many times
20:32
Speaker 1: you were shot? Mama said when we were growing up,
20:35
Speaker 1: we don't use word stupid, all right, there are no
20:37
Speaker 1: stupid questions, So you can't any longer and there are
20:41
Speaker 1: no stupid questions. And actually it's a valid question because
20:44
Speaker 1: you know what the forensic mythologists identified as gunshot wound
20:49
Speaker 1: A And I got to be very clear about this.
20:51
Speaker 1: The letter that's assigned to this does not have any
20:55
Speaker 1: bearing on the sequence in which they were fired. Okay,
20:58
Speaker 1: But what the friends of ologist is calling the letter
21:03
Speaker 1: or the number that is assigned in an autopsy report
21:07
Speaker 1: to a gunshot wound or even a stab wound does
21:10
Speaker 1: not imply the sequence. There's no way to know the sequence,
21:14
Speaker 1: but the one that the forensic pathologist is referring to
21:17
Speaker 1: as gunshot wound. A Get this, and this was actually
21:23
Speaker 1: stated on the stand. This round went through his right jaw,
21:30
Speaker 1: his mandible, which is your jawbone on the right aspect,
21:34
Speaker 1: passed in the posterior neck, which means on the back
21:39
Speaker 1: side of the neck, traversed the body and was lodged
21:43
Speaker 1: in the cheek on the left side. So it entered
21:46
Speaker 1: on the right, passed in front of the spine, okay,
21:49
Speaker 1: and clipped what they call the upper cervical spinal area,
21:53
Speaker 1: which is like C one through C four, and then
21:57
Speaker 1: wound up in the soft tissue of the of the jaw.
22:01
Speaker 1: And get this, it didn't clip a single vessel. It
22:06
Speaker 1: was absent any kind of blood. You didn't have blood
22:09
Speaker 1: that was generated from that. And there, you know, to
22:11
Speaker 1: say that it didn't clip any vessel is kind of misleading.
22:14
Speaker 1: But what she said on the stand is that she
22:17
Speaker 1: said specifically, it didn't hit the juggler vein, okay, which
22:21
Speaker 1: we all have heard the juggler vein. You know, of
22:23
Speaker 1: course you've got the crowded that passes through that area.
22:26
Speaker 1: That none of the structures were struck with bullet A.
22:30
Speaker 1: So the volume of blood has a lot to do
22:34
Speaker 1: with where you're struck anatomically, because there are certain areas
22:38
Speaker 1: you can be hit in your body where you're going
22:40
Speaker 1: to bleed less than you would compare to another anatomical location.
22:45
Speaker 1: What's fascinating about this particular case is the fact that
22:48
Speaker 1: it's kind of an amazing little factoid there that this
22:53
Speaker 1: gunshot wound A that they refer to this A, B
22:55
Speaker 1: and C. That gunshot wound A. The forensic pathologist says,
22:59
Speaker 1: it didn't clip any vessel. You factor that in with
23:01
Speaker 1: the idea that the head, you know, the neck through
23:04
Speaker 1: the head is the most vascular area, and what that
23:06
Speaker 1: means is there's more blood vessels that are traveling through
23:10
Speaker 1: that area. Because your brain requires so much oxygenated blood
23:16
Speaker 1: more so than any other area in the body, you're
23:19
Speaker 1: going to have all of these branches of vessels that
23:21
Speaker 1: are running every which way. Through there. Let's say, for instance,
23:25
Speaker 1: you're struck in the temple with a gunshot wound and
23:29
Speaker 1: it passes, say from right to left and winds up,
23:32
Speaker 1: you know, exiting out of your skull. That's going to
23:36
Speaker 1: be a very, very bloody wound. I just I would
23:39
Speaker 1: ask anybody within the sound of my voice that's ever
23:42
Speaker 1: sustained an open head injury. And when I say that,
23:45
Speaker 1: it's not as it doesn't have to be severe. Like
23:48
Speaker 1: you know, your skull is fraction, you have brains visible.
23:51
Speaker 1: I'm just talking about where you split your head open.
23:53
Speaker 1: Have you ever noticed how much you bleed anytime your
23:57
Speaker 1: scalp is insulted at all, as apposed to say a
24:00
Speaker 1: paper cut on your finger, or maybe even if you've
24:03
Speaker 1: cut your wrist in some way, or the back of
24:06
Speaker 1: your arm or skinned up a knee. It just seems
24:09
Speaker 1: as though that you bleach so much coming from your scalp,
24:12
Speaker 1: and of course below that area when you get into
24:14
Speaker 1: the skull. So it is what we refer to as
24:17
Speaker 1: being anatomically depended upon where each one of those rounds
24:21
Speaker 1: it's targeted, particularly when it comes to the head. Okay, Joe,
24:24
Speaker 1: but I got to go back to my original question,
24:26
Speaker 1: because I really want to understand this, and the point
24:29
Speaker 1: I'm getting at by asking it is knowing how blood
24:33
Speaker 1: if the first shot did not kill Christopher Osborne, knowing
24:38
Speaker 1: how the body still pumps blood, would there have been
24:43
Speaker 1: with the second wound just more blood initially or would
24:48
Speaker 1: there been more pressure coming from that first wound that
24:52
Speaker 1: made a hole in the body to the exterior. Would
24:54
Speaker 1: that have seemed seen more blood? You understand what I'm
24:57
Speaker 1: trying to get at. Oh? Yeah, yeah, I do, particularly
25:00
Speaker 1: if you're talking about, let's say, for instance, like a
25:02
Speaker 1: through and through wound. And when I say through and through,
25:05
Speaker 1: I mean that you have an entrance in an exit,
25:07
Speaker 1: an obvious exit. We talked about wound a okay that
25:11
Speaker 1: they identified in the autopsy. The bullet did not completely
25:15
Speaker 1: exit out of that wound. It was sitting right beneath
25:19
Speaker 1: the surface of the skin and Jason to the left jaw. Okay.
25:24
Speaker 1: But if you have a through and through wound, it's
25:26
Speaker 1: just logical you're perforating the body through and through. So
25:31
Speaker 1: the more defects you having the body, the more you're
25:33
Speaker 1: going to bleed. And you know, I have folks ask
25:38
Speaker 1: me and have asked me throughout my career. Here's the
25:42
Speaker 1: one question that's posed me, particularly when I notify families.
25:45
Speaker 1: They always say, did they suffer? That's a relative question, Okay.
25:50
Speaker 1: I think people are asking do they have an awareness
25:53
Speaker 1: that they're dying or you know that they're in throes
25:56
Speaker 1: of death or whatever the case might be. If you
25:59
Speaker 1: were shot in the head, let's say you take around
26:02
Speaker 1: to the brain. Yeah, from a neurological standpoint, you're automatically diminished. Okay,
26:11
Speaker 1: But just because you're shot in certain areas of the
26:13
Speaker 1: brain doesn't mean you die instantaneously. Now, if you're talking
26:16
Speaker 1: about the brainstem is clipped where all of the autonomic
26:20
Speaker 1: stuff is going on, you know, our heart's beating and
26:22
Speaker 1: all that, You're not gonna be dead instantly. Okay. So
26:25
Speaker 1: it's again we're back to this idea of being anatomically dependent.
26:30
Speaker 1: And let's say, for instance, an individual is shot in
26:33
Speaker 1: the head. It's through and through, it goes from say
26:35
Speaker 1: the right temporal area, through the left temporal area and
26:39
Speaker 1: exits the body. But heart's still going to be beating, Okay,
26:43
Speaker 1: still gonna be beating. And if it's still beating, that
26:45
Speaker 1: means that blood is coursing through the system. Now you've
26:49
Speaker 1: compromised the structural integrity of all of the vascular system, okay,
26:54
Speaker 1: the little vascular pathways in the brain, and now you've
26:57
Speaker 1: got these openings that have been blown out. So yeah,
26:59
Speaker 1: there'll be a tremendous amount of blood that comes out.
27:03
Speaker 1: You see people that sustain and there are many of
27:06
Speaker 1: them that sustain intra oral gunshot wounds, which are most
27:09
Speaker 1: of the time self inflicted. You see in the movies
27:11
Speaker 1: people stick guns in people's mouths and threatening postures and
27:14
Speaker 1: all that sort of thing. I don't know of any
27:17
Speaker 1: case I ever worked where that was a homicidal event,
27:19
Speaker 1: but you do have that with suicide, and those are
27:22
Speaker 1: some of the blood is cases that you can possibly work.
27:25
Speaker 1: When it comes to gunshot wound related suicides, there'll be
27:29
Speaker 1: a tremendous amount of blood. And you think, well, you know,
27:33
Speaker 1: if they if they die instantaneously, why is there so
27:36
Speaker 1: much blood at the scene. Well, their heart doesn't just
27:39
Speaker 1: automatically cease beating at that moment in time. Now do
27:43
Speaker 1: they have an awareness that this is going on? I
27:46
Speaker 1: think most neurologists would probably say no, they don't. They've
27:50
Speaker 1: lost consciousness at this point. They don't have an awareness
27:53
Speaker 1: of it. But yet the heart continues to beat because
27:56
Speaker 1: it's it's part of the it's controlled by the autonomic
27:59
Speaker 1: nervous system. So you're still going to be pumping out
28:01
Speaker 1: blood until eventually. Here's another fancy ten dollar word. If
28:06
Speaker 1: Nancy was here, she'd say, just got start to start
28:09
Speaker 1: speaking English at this point. There's a terminus use that
28:12
Speaker 1: we refer to as exsanguination. Exanguination, It's very simple. It
28:17
Speaker 1: just means that you bleed out, You lose a tremendous
28:20
Speaker 1: amount of blood that exsanguinated, and that just means major
28:23
Speaker 1: blood loss at that point in time. But you know,
28:26
Speaker 1: to kind of tied up in a neat bow most
28:29
Speaker 1: of the time when you have head trauma, particularly related
28:33
Speaker 1: to gunfire instances, it's going to be a bloody mess.
28:37
Speaker 1: And it makes it makes interpreting the scene from a
28:42
Speaker 1: blood stained characteristic standpoint the devil. You pay the devil
28:47
Speaker 1: to do it, because not only do you have that
28:49
Speaker 1: dynamic event, say for instance, where an individual is shot
28:53
Speaker 1: and that round passes through the skull and you have
28:57
Speaker 1: high velocity blood staining that goes over every thing, you know,
29:00
Speaker 1: where you get that real fine particulate blood droplets that
29:03
Speaker 1: are all over the place, but yet they lay in
29:06
Speaker 1: that same spot, and they've got this secondary blood flow
29:10
Speaker 1: that kind of covers and obscures that initial blast that
29:13
Speaker 1: takes place. It can be very, very tough to kind
29:17
Speaker 1: of figure things out at that point. Does the state
29:20
Speaker 1: of Christopher Osborne's body at that point a state of
29:24
Speaker 1: complete relaxation sleep? Does that play anything at all into
29:32
Speaker 1: what happened in that the reaction of the body when
29:35
Speaker 1: he shot. I think that it speaks a lot to
29:39
Speaker 1: the perpetrator. It's not like the perpetrator went face to
29:45
Speaker 1: face with doctor Osborne where they're in some kind of
29:49
Speaker 1: dynamic fight. This guy was asleep when the first officer
29:54
Speaker 1: rolled up. Doctor Osborne was laying face. Now, now I'm
29:59
Speaker 1: not a stumach slep for myself, it's just something I
30:01
Speaker 1: don't find comfort in. But let's just say, let's just
30:04
Speaker 1: say for argument's sake, that that's the position he slept in.
30:08
Speaker 1: If you sustain a gunshot wound the head, more than
30:11
Speaker 1: likely you're going to die right where you're shot. Okay,
30:14
Speaker 1: You're going to bleed out in that position. And it
30:18
Speaker 1: says a lot for the and I use this term
30:21
Speaker 1: a lot for the asymmetry in this kind of environment
30:25
Speaker 1: and this kind of violent relationship. What I mean that
30:29
Speaker 1: moment of violence where you have an individual that's dominant,
30:33
Speaker 1: that is standing over him or immediately over him with
30:38
Speaker 1: this weapon and firing into this man's head not once,
30:42
Speaker 1: not twice, but three times. Three times they're going to
30:46
Speaker 1: get the job done. And here's another thing that you
30:49
Speaker 1: can ascertain from the grouping, what we refer to if
30:52
Speaker 1: you were out of a firing range, where you're looking
30:54
Speaker 1: at the grouping of the bullet holes or defects as
30:57
Speaker 1: we refer to them. I've never been a good shot.
31:00
Speaker 1: I was in the Army and I barely qualified as
31:03
Speaker 1: firing guns. I love guns. I love to talk about guns,
31:06
Speaker 1: particularly from a forensic standpoint. I've never been good at
31:09
Speaker 1: firing guns. I come from a family that are really good.
31:12
Speaker 1: To my great shame, I was never a great marksman.
31:15
Speaker 1: But this is what I know. Anytime I had to
31:17
Speaker 1: go to the range to qualify, I know that the
31:20
Speaker 1: closer I got to the target, the tighter my shot
31:23
Speaker 1: group got. So if you're scoring head shots, which this
31:27
Speaker 1: individual scored three head shots on doctor Christopher, that implies
31:31
Speaker 1: to me that either they're a highly skilled marksman or
31:37
Speaker 1: they're in very close proximity to doctor Osma. So what
31:41
Speaker 1: you're telling me is the state of the body, whether
31:45
Speaker 1: in heightened anxiety or full relaxation, changes nothing. When an
31:51
Speaker 1: event likes this happens when you're shocked, the amount of
31:54
Speaker 1: blood that exudes from the body doesn't change the pressure
31:58
Speaker 1: within the side of the body, of out, how fast
32:00
Speaker 1: the blood's going to come out, things like that. Being
32:04
Speaker 1: awake versus being asleep makes no difference. It's not a
32:07
Speaker 1: matter of being awake or being asleep. What matters is
32:11
Speaker 1: is that if you're already in a sleep state and
32:14
Speaker 1: someone shoot you in the head, you're not coming out
32:18
Speaker 1: of that sleep state. As a matter of fact, you're
32:20
Speaker 1: going to drift off into death because the brain has
32:23
Speaker 1: been so damaged at that point in time. Now, if
32:26
Speaker 1: doctor Osborne had been shots for instance, if he'd been
32:29
Speaker 1: shot in his back and a round had passed through
32:32
Speaker 1: his intestines, he would have come to he would have
32:35
Speaker 1: come out of that sleep state. That might not have
32:38
Speaker 1: been for a longng time, but he would have had
32:41
Speaker 1: certainly have had awareness, and you would see him bleeding
32:45
Speaker 1: out rolling around in it. Kind of the best term
32:47
Speaker 1: I've ever been able to kind of use is writhing.
32:51
Speaker 1: We hear that associated with pain, and it is painful.
32:54
Speaker 1: You can imagine being shot in midsection through your bowels,
32:57
Speaker 1: a very painful event, and there would be a pain
33:01
Speaker 1: response at that moment in time. If his brain's not damaged,
33:04
Speaker 1: he has an awareness of what's happened, and certainly he
33:07
Speaker 1: still has his faculties. If you're shot like that and
33:09
Speaker 1: the abdomen or in the back, you have an awareness
33:12
Speaker 1: because you can hear, you can see, you can smell.
33:15
Speaker 1: You imagine waking up, you've heard you've heard a loud
33:18
Speaker 1: report of a weapon, and you've been shot, but you
33:21
Speaker 1: also smell gunpowder that's hanging in the air. You know
33:25
Speaker 1: that burned gunpowder. It gives off a very distinctive odor.
33:28
Speaker 1: So you would have that kind of century awareness to
33:31
Speaker 1: what's going on, and with the bleeding in that circumstance,
33:35
Speaker 1: you'd have them writhing around in it. Lack of movement,
33:38
Speaker 1: though many times, is indicative of a shot that literally
33:42
Speaker 1: takes your lights out to the point where you're not
33:44
Speaker 1: going to move at that point in time, after you've
33:47
Speaker 1: been injured, I've often thought of evidence in terms of
34:12
Speaker 1: whispering and screaming, and essentially what I mean by that
34:16
Speaker 1: is that sometimes it's very gentle your sensitivity to it.
34:20
Speaker 1: You have to have your total awareness of what's going
34:24
Speaker 1: on and pick up on every little subtlety. Other times
34:27
Speaker 1: you look at a circumstance and it is literally the
34:30
Speaker 1: evidence of physical evidence you have there absolutely screams as
34:34
Speaker 1: to what was the nature of the event. In this
34:37
Speaker 1: particular case, I think we've got a lot of evidence
34:40
Speaker 1: at screaming at us, Oh, screaming in day, Joe, you
34:43
Speaker 1: were telling me how close you thought this incident happened,
34:48
Speaker 1: And from what I've learned from you about gunshot residue,
34:51
Speaker 1: you're really not going to get it on you after
34:53
Speaker 1: thirty six inches will During the arguments made by Polly
34:58
Speaker 1: Odsbourne's defense attorney and the fact that she was found
35:01
Speaker 1: with gunshot residue on her, her attorneys were trying to
35:05
Speaker 1: claim that it was possibly transferred to her body by
35:10
Speaker 1: police contact with the gunshot residue. But this was what
35:15
Speaker 1: I found most damning and most interesting about this case.
35:19
Speaker 1: Not only was gunshot residue found on her, Joe was
35:24
Speaker 1: found on her eyebrow. There's two chemical compounds that you
35:28
Speaker 1: fund within a bullet. Okay, let's say live ammunition. I
35:32
Speaker 1: don't like to use the term bullet because it means
35:34
Speaker 1: a lot of different things to people. Bullet can be
35:37
Speaker 1: the totality of the live round. And you've got this
35:40
Speaker 1: lead core projectile, it's going down rain. Some people will
35:42
Speaker 1: call that a bullet. Then they'll look at a fully
35:44
Speaker 1: intact item of live ammunition, they'll call that a bullet.
35:47
Speaker 1: So it's variable. But let's just say with live ammunition,
35:52
Speaker 1: you have two chemical compounds that are at work. You
35:55
Speaker 1: have what's referred to as propellant, and propellant is gunpowder. Okay.
36:01
Speaker 1: Where you have the gunpowder that is actually ignited and
36:06
Speaker 1: it drives that projectile out of the end of the barrel. Okay,
36:10
Speaker 1: So the projectile itself is packed into the casing and
36:15
Speaker 1: the gunpowder sits directly beneath the projectile. Now, how does
36:21
Speaker 1: this start? How does this mechanism start? I've often described
36:24
Speaker 1: it to my students in forensics classes. Just think of
36:28
Speaker 1: it as a rocket ignition. So what do you ignite
36:32
Speaker 1: the propellant with. Well, you have a primer with a
36:37
Speaker 1: piece of ammunition, particularly thirty eight caliber thirty eight special round.
36:41
Speaker 1: You'll have the base of the live round and you'll
36:45
Speaker 1: see what looks like if you ever look at one,
36:47
Speaker 1: turn it on its end and look at it looks
36:50
Speaker 1: like a bull's eye. That little brass area right in
36:53
Speaker 1: the center that's called the primer cap and the primer
36:58
Speaker 1: in there. When the hammer goes forward, it strikes that primer. Well,
37:02
Speaker 1: the primer is a bit more unstable chemically. That means
37:07
Speaker 1: that as soon as it's touched off, it fires off vigorously, okay,
37:13
Speaker 1: and it sends sparks up through these what are called
37:16
Speaker 1: flasholes in the base of the live round, and it
37:20
Speaker 1: ignites the propellant. So you've got several chemical reactions going on.
37:25
Speaker 1: You talked about this gunshot residue, the GSR that's found
37:31
Speaker 1: on Holly Osborne's eyebrows and on her hands. What that
37:36
Speaker 1: means is is that when that primer initiated where's it
37:41
Speaker 1: creates a puff of smoke. You get two puffs of smoke.
37:44
Speaker 1: You get a puff of smoke that comes up out
37:46
Speaker 1: of the rear of the weapon. That's going to be
37:48
Speaker 1: the primer igniting when it strikes, and it gives off
37:53
Speaker 1: this cloud. Just think of I'd like to use talcum powder,
37:57
Speaker 1: And my description is a lot. If you think about
37:58
Speaker 1: talcum powder and you open up the little vents on
38:02
Speaker 1: the top of a bottle of talcum powder and you
38:05
Speaker 1: squeeze it and you get that little puff in the air,
38:07
Speaker 1: it's got to settles. It doesn't just hang in the hair, right.
38:10
Speaker 1: So this gunshot residue is generated from this primer strike, okay,
38:16
Speaker 1: And it's very chemically, it's very specific. So it comes
38:19
Speaker 1: to rest generally on the backs of the hands many times.
38:23
Speaker 1: And if you're standing like in really close or you're
38:26
Speaker 1: holding the weapon in really close proximity to your face,
38:29
Speaker 1: guess what it's going to do. It's going to rain
38:31
Speaker 1: down on your face. So you catch bits of it,
38:34
Speaker 1: for instance, in your eyebrows. It'll come to rest on
38:37
Speaker 1: your skin. I'm actually amazed that they swapped her eyebrows.
38:42
Speaker 1: I find that quite fascinating. But they did, and they
38:45
Speaker 1: were able to detect gunshot residue in these areas. It
38:49
Speaker 1: had actually deposited in these areas. The main components of
38:54
Speaker 1: the gunshot residue are going to be things like lead, antimony, burial,
39:00
Speaker 1: and that that kind of creates this this chemical storm,
39:04
Speaker 1: if you will. You know, years ago before we had
39:08
Speaker 1: scanning electronic microscopes that were widely used, they used to
39:11
Speaker 1: use a very interesting test and it is called a
39:15
Speaker 1: paraffin test. And so if an individual had fired a weapon,
39:18
Speaker 1: what they would do it just imagine this. They would
39:22
Speaker 1: take hot wax, paraffin wax, and you'd have to set
39:24
Speaker 1: your hand in it. Okay, you'd set your hand in it.
39:28
Speaker 1: They take a cast of the suspect's hand. The cast
39:31
Speaker 1: would be removed, and then they would apply was referred
39:34
Speaker 1: to as a reagent to the actual cast, this wax
39:38
Speaker 1: cast of the hand, and you would begin to get
39:41
Speaker 1: these hits, these color hits on there, and it would
39:44
Speaker 1: give you the indication that you had these uh you know,
39:48
Speaker 1: partially burned components that were left behind, and it would
39:51
Speaker 1: it would interact with the chemicals. But it was hit
39:53
Speaker 1: or miss. It just wasn't that accurate. And still some
39:57
Speaker 1: people argue with gunshot ros they're not you know, they'll
40:01
Speaker 1: still doubt the efficacy of it. And that's why the
40:03
Speaker 1: defense attorney raised this suspicion, you know that that the
40:08
Speaker 1: gunshot residue was actually transferred somehow i've heard in this case,
40:13
Speaker 1: I've heard, well, it could have been transferred from the body,
40:15
Speaker 1: because they're not denying that he was shot with this
40:18
Speaker 1: thirty eight caliber pistol, so it was transferred from his body,
40:22
Speaker 1: or that the police had transferred it onto her in
40:26
Speaker 1: handling her, for instance, And that's kind of that's a
40:30
Speaker 1: real reach. I mean, the defense attorney is doing what
40:32
Speaker 1: defense attorneys do. They're attempting to defend this individual, and
40:36
Speaker 1: they'll throw up any kind of seed that will plant
40:38
Speaker 1: reasonable doubt. In this case, of course, it didn't work.
40:41
Speaker 1: Stupid question time again. Are all gunpowders the same? No,
40:47
Speaker 1: they're not. And that's an excellent question. As a matter
40:50
Speaker 1: of fact, you look at you're knocking it out of
40:54
Speaker 1: the park, hanging curveballs. The beauty of it is that
40:57
Speaker 1: you don't even have to do a chemical test on
41:00
Speaker 1: gunpowder to determine if it's different from the other. What's
41:04
Speaker 1: really interesting is that gunpowder depended upon the manufacturer it.
41:10
Speaker 1: You can look at the morphology of it and what
41:12
Speaker 1: that means is the appearance of it under high magnification.
41:15
Speaker 1: You'll have some gunpowder that will be disc shaped. You'll
41:21
Speaker 1: have some of it that will be cone shaped. You'll
41:24
Speaker 1: have some of it that are shaped into little rods,
41:27
Speaker 1: for instance. And it's it's all deepended upon who's manufacturing this.
41:30
Speaker 1: And of course they have the same basic chemical compound,
41:34
Speaker 1: but they are chemically distinct. Okay, deepended upon the manufacturer
41:40
Speaker 1: because these things are you know, their registered, the items
41:44
Speaker 1: that are sold. Okay, there are specific signatures that you
41:48
Speaker 1: can go back and look for. I've always been fascinated
41:50
Speaker 1: by that little item there. From a forensic standpoint, can
41:53
Speaker 1: you tie something back? The key is, though, how deep
41:57
Speaker 1: are the police going to dig? How deep are people
42:00
Speaker 1: at the forensics lab going to dig in to whatever
42:04
Speaker 1: sample they've captured at a scene. Are they going to
42:08
Speaker 1: be compelled enough and enthusiastic enough to go in and
42:11
Speaker 1: examine these things? In this particular case, they were. The
42:15
Speaker 1: other scientific reality here is that not only do we
42:19
Speaker 1: have gunshot residue in this case, but we have what's
42:23
Speaker 1: referred to as a distribution of gunpowder on doctor Osmond's
42:28
Speaker 1: body here. Okay, well, what do you mean distribution like
42:33
Speaker 1: all up and down his body? No, not all up
42:35
Speaker 1: and down his body. But here's the key. When we
42:38
Speaker 1: take a body into the morgue. After we've done all
42:42
Speaker 1: of our primary trace evidence collection on a body, we
42:45
Speaker 1: will clean the body up. Okay, that seems counterintuitive, I know,
42:50
Speaker 1: because you want to see the body. Keep using this
42:53
Speaker 1: term pristine. But you have to be able to appreciate
42:56
Speaker 1: anything that's underneath, say, for instance, the blood that's on
42:59
Speaker 1: the body, any kind of other injuries that might be
43:03
Speaker 1: resting in it it and needs. Let's say they were for instance,
43:05
Speaker 1: not in this case, but if you have a case
43:06
Speaker 1: where somebody was beaten down or pistol whipped and then
43:09
Speaker 1: they were shot. Okay, well, blood that has seeped out
43:13
Speaker 1: of the body could cover up say contusions and that
43:16
Speaker 1: sort of thing. But the thing about the distribution of powder,
43:21
Speaker 1: unburned powder, specifically from a firearms related event, is that
43:26
Speaker 1: it's not going to wash away. Unlike gun shot residue.
43:31
Speaker 1: You have to be very careful with people that you suspect.
43:33
Speaker 1: You cannot allow them to clean themselves up. They have
43:37
Speaker 1: to stay in their current state when the police find them,
43:40
Speaker 1: because you can rinse off gunshot residue. You know, if
43:43
Speaker 1: you scrub hard enough and this sort of thing, you can,
43:46
Speaker 1: you know, kind of get rid of it. I'll return
43:48
Speaker 1: back to the gunshot women in just second. But here's
43:50
Speaker 1: another little interesting part to this, and the detective was
43:54
Speaker 1: actually assets under cross examination, and I found it very interesting.
44:00
Speaker 1: When Ali Osborne was taken into custody, they did not
44:03
Speaker 1: take her clothes from her for testing, So it was
44:06
Speaker 1: kind of a moment in court, I think for the jury.
44:10
Speaker 1: They did do just are testing on the hands and
44:13
Speaker 1: obviously the eyebrows, which still for me is fascinating, but
44:17
Speaker 1: they did not collect her clothing like shirt, that sort
44:20
Speaker 1: of thing. What did I say earlier? You know about
44:22
Speaker 1: my example with the baby powder, that cloud has got
44:26
Speaker 1: to settle somewhere, and it can settle onto her clothing
44:28
Speaker 1: as she's fired the weapon. So it's not just going
44:30
Speaker 1: to be on her hands and maybe the backs of
44:32
Speaker 1: her arms or the palmer aspects of her arms, but
44:35
Speaker 1: it can come to rest on the fabric of the clothing.
44:37
Speaker 1: They didn't collect her clothing, and that could be a
44:39
Speaker 1: problem in some cases. But when you think about the
44:43
Speaker 1: gunshot wound or wounds that doctor Osborne sustained, what the
44:48
Speaker 1: pathologist concluded was that he had stippling patterns all over
44:55
Speaker 1: these wounds. And what that means is that the unburned
44:58
Speaker 1: powder and anything thing else that might come out of
45:01
Speaker 1: the end of that muzzle. It's not just a bullet
45:04
Speaker 1: coming out, and you've got smoke that comes out, You've
45:06
Speaker 1: got flame that shoots out. Sometimes you've got unburned particles
45:10
Speaker 1: of gunpowder that come out. And what happens is is
45:13
Speaker 1: that that literally embeds itself into the tissue. And of course,
45:19
Speaker 1: the further you move back with the end of the muzzle,
45:22
Speaker 1: the broader the distribution of that pattern will be. Okay,
45:27
Speaker 1: And so you can appreciate you can ascertain range of fire. Now,
45:31
Speaker 1: I know that I have said in the past when
45:33
Speaker 1: I said out to thirty six inches. Now let me
45:35
Speaker 1: qualify that because I heard you mentioned that earlier. See,
45:38
Speaker 1: I know you listen, Jackie. I just know you listen.
45:41
Speaker 1: Thirty six inches you might be talking about a high
45:43
Speaker 1: powered weapon, then okay, because you would have a tremendous
45:47
Speaker 1: amount of more force. You'd certainly have more propellant that
45:51
Speaker 1: would be coming out. But when we're talking about handguns,
45:54
Speaker 1: most of the time you're looking about an eighteen inch range. Well,
45:58
Speaker 1: here's what we know. These are intermediate gunshot wounds. And
46:04
Speaker 1: the reason I know that and The reason that the
46:06
Speaker 1: pithologists knew that is because there was a distribution pattern,
46:10
Speaker 1: the spread, if you will, where it had deposited on
46:14
Speaker 1: this poor man's skin as he laid their sleeping That
46:18
Speaker 1: would give you an indication that it wasn't eighteen inches.
46:23
Speaker 1: She moved that muzzle, they believe, anywhere from six to
46:26
Speaker 1: nine inches away from his skin. When she pulled that trigger,
46:31
Speaker 1: she was right on top of him. And here's another
46:34
Speaker 1: fascinating thing when you think about that. That gunshot residue
46:41
Speaker 1: was on her eyebrows. She was very up close in
46:45
Speaker 1: personal when she fired this weaman. I mean she drew,
46:49
Speaker 1: She drew that thing into her face and then she
46:51
Speaker 1: leaned forward over his body. And she didn't just fire
46:54
Speaker 1: once or twice. She fired three times into this man's
46:57
Speaker 1: body that she's married too, and killed him right there
47:00
Speaker 1: in the bed well. In shooting with the thirty eight.
47:03
Speaker 1: Of course, learning that about the sixtensions, the first thing
47:06
Speaker 1: I thought of was how in the world did she
47:08
Speaker 1: keep from giving herself a black eye with from the
47:10
Speaker 1: recoil for one, But you mentioned something a minute ago
47:15
Speaker 1: about the residue on both of her hands. I want
47:18
Speaker 1: to reach a sentence on which you explain it to
47:19
Speaker 1: me that came from the report about this autopsy or
47:24
Speaker 1: about this investigation. I mean both of her hands had
47:28
Speaker 1: the cut off ten particles. They don't go up higher
47:33
Speaker 1: than that. Okay, what does that mean? Ten particles? That
47:36
Speaker 1: means ten points of identification relative to the chemical distribution
47:41
Speaker 1: of those items. All you have to do is find ten.
47:44
Speaker 1: You have to find ten of those. I still don't
47:47
Speaker 1: understand ten particles. Is it like the ridges on your fingerprints? Yeah, exactly.
47:52
Speaker 1: So if you can find ten of those particles that's
47:56
Speaker 1: the cutoff. That means that you have chemically assessed this.
48:00
Speaker 1: Their tolerance here and the court's tolerance because this has
48:03
Speaker 1: passed through the membrane of scientific rigor if you will,
48:07
Speaker 1: you know, those things that we test in court, for instance,
48:10
Speaker 1: are those things that passed through like Daubert hearings, and
48:12
Speaker 1: this sort of thing is an acceptable science. And what
48:15
Speaker 1: they have determined is that ten of these components are
48:19
Speaker 1: found on her. So for them, the court is saying
48:24
Speaker 1: that the court has recognized that that is acceptable, that
48:28
Speaker 1: that is demonstrative of the fact she has gunshot residue
48:32
Speaker 1: on her, and that that is solid enough to stand
48:35
Speaker 1: up in court. That's precisely what it means. Ten particles.
48:39
Speaker 1: Give me an example of what I'm just trying to
48:42
Speaker 1: understand of what a particle would be. I still don't
48:45
Speaker 1: understand what that means. Where you're talking about the breakdown
48:47
Speaker 1: components of the gunpowder residue itself. Yeah, yeah, and it
48:53
Speaker 1: can be the components itself. You can actually find lead
48:57
Speaker 1: that's associated with this. You can find ser it off
49:00
Speaker 1: pieces of brass in there sometimes. So you find a
49:04
Speaker 1: base number of ten of these components present on the
49:08
Speaker 1: individual's hands when you're going to test her, and you
49:11
Speaker 1: know the structure of gunshot residue is not simply lead, antimonium, barium.
49:18
Speaker 1: There are other associated elements that are considered in this.
49:22
Speaker 1: You can have things like calcium, you can have silicone
49:25
Speaker 1: in there, there are any number of other things. And
49:27
Speaker 1: so you find this combination of ten that's enough of
49:30
Speaker 1: a baseline to establish that she did in fact have
49:33
Speaker 1: gunshot residue on her and putting together the evidence against
49:38
Speaker 1: Holly Osbourne, not only was gunshot residue found on her hands,
49:44
Speaker 1: but her DNA was found on the guns because the
49:49
Speaker 1: guns were in her home, and you would imagine that yes,
49:52
Speaker 1: her DNA would be on it. How did it prove
49:56
Speaker 1: that she was the perpetrator? You know, it's one thing
49:59
Speaker 1: if you just up a pistol, say for instance, by
50:03
Speaker 1: the pistol grip, and you transfer your DNA onto that surface.
50:07
Speaker 1: But if your DNA completely envelops the backside of the
50:13
Speaker 1: housing of that weapon and you find, say, for instance,
50:18
Speaker 1: your DNA deposited on the trigger, the trigger housing, or
50:22
Speaker 1: when you went to check to see if it was
50:24
Speaker 1: loaded and you opened up the cylinder. Because this was
50:27
Speaker 1: a revolver, there's a lot of action that goes on
50:29
Speaker 1: with a revolver to kind of maintain it and to
50:31
Speaker 1: see if it's a hot weapon. If you will, you're
50:34
Speaker 1: touching it all over the place. It's one thing just
50:37
Speaker 1: to kind of passively pick it up and move it
50:39
Speaker 1: to another location. But when you've got that much touching
50:42
Speaker 1: going on, it's one more element in this case that
50:45
Speaker 1: puts that weapon in her hand and eventually has that
50:48
Speaker 1: muzzle pointed at the back of doctor Osborne's head. Holly
50:52
Speaker 1: Osborne was convicted of murder in the death of her husband.
50:56
Speaker 1: She has been sentenced to eighteen years to life in prison.
51:03
Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Moore, and this is body bags.