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A secret, a revelation and a life forever changed for cop turned alleged victim · The Morning Edition

• 0:04
  S1: As a police officer who investigated sex crimes, Graham was
• 0:09
  S1: accustomed to helping victims on what might be the worst
• 0:12
  S1: day of their life. He found meaning in tracking down
• 0:16
  S1: the criminals who had hurt them. But then came the
• 0:19
  S1: day when he realized that he, too, was an alleged victim.
• 0:28
  S1: I'm Samantha Cylindromorphus, and you're listening to The Morning Edition
• 0:31
  S1: from The Age and the Sydney Morning Herald. Today, former
• 0:37
  S1: detective Graham Simpson differ on what happened when he decided
• 0:41
  S1: to report his alleged abuse to police, and what it
• 0:45
  S1: was like to experience the justice system from the other side.
• 0:50
  S1: It's May the 25th. Graham, welcome to the podcast.
• 0:57
  S2: Thank you so much.
• 0:58
  S3: So, Graham, you were a police officer for 27 years
• 1:01
  S3: with Victoria Police. Can you just tell us, I guess,
• 1:03
  S3: about some of your biggest and perhaps most memorable cases
• 1:07
  S3: and why you love the job so much?
• 1:10
  S2: Yeah. Look, that 27 years is something that is now
• 1:13
  S2: part of me. It's who I am. And I had
• 1:15
  S2: an absolute blast for the whole time. A lot of fun.
• 1:18
  S2: So I worked through uniform all the way into Detective World.
• 1:22
  S2: And then the pinnacle for me was getting into the
• 1:24
  S2: major crime squads and worked at homicide, worked armed robbery,
• 1:27
  S2: worked sex crimes, um, drug units, everything. And I just
• 1:31
  S2: wanted to mix myself around all those different crime themes and,
• 1:34
  S2: and had a great time doing it. Worked on some
• 1:37
  S2: of the most serious cases. I think that this state
• 1:39
  S2: and country's seen, um, and had to, to solve. Um,
• 1:44
  S2: it was real cops and robbers stuff. So I've thrived on,
• 1:47
  S2: on that for, for me, I think it was the
• 1:49
  S2: vulnerability of life and you know, how much impact it
• 1:53
  S2: was to the families that you saw them grieving at
• 1:56
  S2: their worst And our job, the most important job is
• 1:59
  S2: to represent the victim or represent the deceased. That could
• 2:02
  S2: no longer obviously, um, find answers for themselves, but finances
• 2:06
  S2: for the family. So a really emotional job, high pressure. Um,
• 2:10
  S2: but finding answers for the family is very rewarding to
• 2:13
  S2: either find out the why behind how someone was murdered. But,
• 2:17
  S2: but also the who, but then eventually moved up to
• 2:20
  S2: the country to try and slow down a bit was
• 2:22
  S2: the plan didn't happen. Um, and the north east of
• 2:25
  S2: Victoria certainly didn't disappoint. It kept us busy. And um,
• 2:28
  S2: I just love the whole the whole journey of policing,
• 2:31
  S2: but eventually had to look after my own wellbeing. And
• 2:34
  S2: enough was enough after 27 years and and stepped away.
• 2:37
  S3: And now I want to ask you to take us
• 2:38
  S3: to a moment this was so pivotal for you. It
• 2:41
  S3: was back in 2012. You're sitting at the back of
• 2:43
  S3: a classroom at the police academy as part of training
• 2:46
  S3: to become a specialist in sexual offending. So take us
• 2:49
  S3: back to that moment. What happened?
• 2:51
  S2: Yeah, that's, um, quite a pivotal moment in my life. Um,
• 2:54
  S2: it really turned everything on its head. So yeah, sitting
• 2:57
  S2: in the classroom is just say there was a lecture
• 2:58
  S2: from one of the experts in relation to grooming behaviors. Uh,
• 3:02
  S2: Patrick Tidmarsh, a well, world renowned expert in grooming behaviors.
• 3:06
  S2: And he was lecturing to us around what are the signs,
• 3:09
  S2: what happens and what are the traditional, I guess, methodologies
• 3:12
  S2: of the predators. And, um, he was talking about a
• 3:15
  S2: particular case and particular methodology of offenders going hands on
• 3:20
  S2: with their victims and tickling. So an excuse to go
• 3:23
  S2: hands on with a victim. And it just hit me.
• 3:26
  S2: It took me back to my own childhood and being
• 3:29
  S2: offended against. And it just reconnected that memory. And look,
• 3:34
  S2: I was I was in shock. I, you know, I
• 3:37
  S2: remember thinking, everyone in this room is going to see
• 3:41
  S2: my reaction to this and they're going to pick it.
• 3:43
  S3: So because what was going on in your mind, where
• 3:45
  S3: did you go?
• 3:46
  S2: I went straight back to time and place. I was
• 3:49
  S2: that 14 year old kid being offended against in his
• 3:52
  S2: lounge room. That's that's how impactful it was. It took
• 3:55
  S2: me straight back.
• 3:56
  S3: And if you're happy to say what happened in that
• 3:58
  S3: lounge room, what happened to you?
• 3:59
  S2: Yeah. So I'd been there to go and visit some friends.
• 4:02
  S2: I knew his some of his family and went around
• 4:05
  S2: to see them. They weren't home and it was just
• 4:08
  S2: him and I. And then before leaving, I don't know
• 4:10
  S2: exactly the details, but eventually I was on the ground
• 4:13
  S2: being tickled and. And then he abused me by putting
• 4:16
  S2: his hands down my pants and. And started touching me
• 4:19
  S2: and I tried to fend back, tried to stop. But,
• 4:22
  S2: you know, 14 year old boy versus a grown man
• 4:24
  S2: is quite a bigger man. Just couldn't couldn't stop it.
• 4:27
  S2: So thankfully, it ended on its own. There was nothing
• 4:30
  S2: I could do. And I left and I never went back.
• 4:35
  S3: And so you mentioned this was in a home of
• 4:37
  S3: people you knew. So who was this man who was
• 4:39
  S3: doing this to you?
• 4:40
  S2: Uh, he was he was associated to me through school.
• 4:44
  S2: So one of my teachers at school, um, but he'd
• 4:47
  S2: through sport and my extracurricular activities, there was Those connections
• 4:51
  S2: there and almost daily connections there. But he groomed my
• 4:56
  S2: parents for trust, groomed me for trust and everyone around
• 5:00
  S2: the school and everyone. So there was a fair bit
• 5:02
  S2: of rumors around at the time, though he was a
• 5:04
  S2: bit suss. Um, and I guess that's what's one of
• 5:07
  S2: the hardest things to, to try and get my head
• 5:09
  S2: around now as an adult is where were the adults
• 5:12
  S2: in all this? But it was different back then, right?
• 5:14
  S2: It was no one wanted to accuse anyone of, of
• 5:16
  S2: being a paedophile. Yeah. Um, so it was a bit different.
• 5:19
  S2: But look, I then had to very quickly because it
• 5:22
  S2: happened a couple of times, not just that one time.
• 5:25
  S2: And I had to very quickly take action to protect myself.
• 5:28
  S2: So that was in the end, giving up a sport
• 5:31
  S2: that I loved.
• 5:32
  S3: And so tell me, you mentioned just before, you know,
• 5:34
  S3: when this is all coming rushing back to you in
• 5:36
  S3: this training session in 2012, you sort of came to
• 5:40
  S3: and thought, oh my God, everyone's going to see my reaction.
• 5:42
  S3: So what else were you thinking in that moment?
• 5:45
  S2: Yeah. Um, I was just thinking of how just the
• 5:47
  S2: how is this been locked away for so long. Um,
• 5:51
  S2: I've had to do a lot of work, both in
• 5:53
  S2: therapy and with counselors to try and understand. You know,
• 5:56
  S2: I'm a I'm an educated man. I wouldn't say I'm
• 5:59
  S2: a highly intelligent man, but how is someone who's a
• 6:02
  S2: professional and a detective in this world have a memory
• 6:06
  S2: that had just been lost and understanding that. So the
• 6:10
  S2: terminology of this tickling was what reconnected that memory for me.
• 6:13
  S2: And that reconnection just brought it all back. And then
• 6:17
  S2: it was just everything that come with it, you know,
• 6:20
  S2: why me? Um, how what? You know, a bit of shame,
• 6:24
  S2: a lot of shame. Not a bit of shame, a
• 6:25
  S2: lot of shame, a lot of guilt, um, around it.
• 6:28
  S2: And just how did I keep this secret? And then,
• 6:31
  S2: you know, the trauma that comes with that.
• 6:32
  S3: So yeah. And guilt. Why guilt and why shame?
• 6:36
  S2: That's a hard one. I think just as a, as
• 6:38
  S2: a man, it's, it's how did this happen to me?
• 6:41
  S2: You know, we're meant to be strong. We're meant to.
• 6:43
  S2: You know, those things don't happen to us. We're protectors. Right.
• 6:46
  S2: So you've let that happen to yourself. Um, so a
• 6:50
  S2: bit of shame in that. And then what does that
• 6:52
  S2: then mean for me and my family? Um, do I
• 6:54
  S2: tell them, do I not? Do I tell anyone? Yeah.
• 6:57
  S2: That's what was going through my mind back then was
• 6:59
  S2: just that initial shock. And then. Right. Well, what do
• 7:01
  S2: I do with this now? What does this mean for me? Um,
• 7:04
  S2: so a lot to unpack. And as the months went on,
• 7:06
  S2: you know, then falling into alcohol to try and forget again,
• 7:11
  S2: I just wanted to go back to not remembering because
• 7:13
  S2: life was good.
• 7:14
  S3: How low did things get in that time when you
• 7:16
  S3: were just trying to forget and grappling with these memories?
• 7:19
  S3: Like what was was there a particular point that was
• 7:21
  S3: just the lowest?
• 7:22
  S2: Uh, one particular point I think I was in because
• 7:25
  S2: I went back to work after that course as the
• 7:27
  S2: officer in charge of that sex offence child abuse unit,
• 7:30
  S2: and then just managing the day to day work that
• 7:34
  S2: you read and you see and you hear. And I
• 7:36
  S2: remember sitting in my office and was reading across one
• 7:38
  S2: of the cases, and it was the same sort of
• 7:40
  S2: offending that happened to me and that that was rock bottom.
• 7:42
  S2: That was, you know, I lost it. I had a
• 7:45
  S2: breakdown in my office crying. One of my senior detectives
• 7:49
  S2: walked past and was like, are you alright? Boss? I'm like, nah,
• 7:52
  S2: I'm not good. Just give me a minute. I'm not good.
• 7:54
  S2: And that was the moment I went, I've got to
• 7:56
  S2: pick up the phone and get some help because I
• 7:58
  S2: was throwing myself into work. I was ignoring it all,
• 8:00
  S2: trying to put it away, drinking, taking risks, you know,
• 8:04
  S2: both professionally and great occupation to begin to take risks. Right?
• 8:07
  S2: So yeah, you know, um, executing search warrants or arresting
• 8:11
  S2: people and always putting myself in front of that danger,
• 8:14
  S2: almost daring the world to hurt me because it would
• 8:17
  S2: have been easier to go off work from an injury than, say,
• 8:20
  S2: I'm not coping with this trauma.
• 8:22
  S3: And I really want to ask you about that because
• 8:24
  S3: some people might be listening and thinking, okay, you're a
• 8:26
  S3: police officer. I think you were a senior detective sergeant
• 8:28
  S3: at this point. And you, of course, had been on
• 8:31
  S3: the opposite side, dealing with cases like this where people
• 8:33
  S3: had been victims of these sorts of crimes. So some
• 8:36
  S3: people might think, oh, you know, might your instinct not
• 8:38
  S3: be to, okay, report this?
• 8:41
  S2: Yeah, yeah. Great question. Right. And I struggle with that
• 8:44
  S2: for a long time. Um, I know the numbers aren't great.
• 8:48
  S2: I know the stats to, to those that actually have
• 8:50
  S2: the courage to report and tell police to then actually
• 8:53
  S2: want to confront the offender and try and take it
• 8:56
  S2: to court. Like I know those numbers aren't great. It's,
• 8:59
  S2: it's actually quite shocking. Um, I think to tell your
• 9:02
  S2: story to, to anyone, but then to tell it to police, um,
• 9:05
  S2: it's something I've taken for granted for so long. Right. So,
• 9:09
  S2: you know, whether it was a sex offence or a
• 9:11
  S2: victim of a crime against yourself. Um, I guess I
• 9:15
  S2: underestimated that until I was on that other side and
• 9:17
  S2: then thought, I really need to probably do something about
• 9:20
  S2: this for my own well-being and to hold this guy accountable.
• 9:23
  S3: And then you did, right? You did something that you
• 9:25
  S3: had previously asked countless victims to do, which is you
• 9:28
  S3: reported it to colleagues of yours in the New South
• 9:30
  S3: Wales Police Force. So I wanted to ask you, what
• 9:32
  S3: was it like to walk into that police station to
• 9:35
  S3: sit in that interview room?
• 9:36
  S2: Oh, God. It was, uh, that's something that will stay
• 9:38
  S2: with me forever. Was walking into the police station as
• 9:41
  S2: the victim. A station I'd been in countless times before. Um,
• 9:46
  S2: but to go in and to sit into that interview
• 9:48
  S2: room and be on the other side of the table
• 9:49
  S2: for a change, not typing the statement, having it taken
• 9:53
  S2: for me and going into all those intimate details, um,
• 9:57
  S2: you know, having to have breaks and it was part
• 9:59
  S2: of it was clinical. I just went into that mode
• 10:02
  S2: and I give the example of putting on a mask of,
• 10:06
  S2: and I guess victims do that. We have to, to,
• 10:09
  S2: I guess, um, self protect. But overwhelmingly I remember after,
• 10:14
  S2: I think like 7 or 8 page statement and multiple sittings,
• 10:18
  S2: walking out of the police station in Albury, because it
• 10:21
  S2: was a regional town that I went to, the weight
• 10:24
  S2: that was lifted by telling that to someone else and
• 10:27
  S2: that sharing that trauma or sharing that that's with the police.
• 10:30
  S2: Now they can deal with it and put the trust
• 10:32
  S2: in them to do it. And that overwhelming feeling of
• 10:34
  S2: not having to carry some own anymore was so empowering
• 10:38
  S2: and literally a weight lifted off my shoulders. So that
• 10:41
  S2: was a real moment for me to go, okay, this
• 10:43
  S2: is a good step.
• 10:44
  S3: But then I think comes what? Well, I imagine might
• 10:47
  S3: be a hard moment, but I want you to tell us,
• 10:48
  S3: because you did something that police officers often ask victims
• 10:51
  S3: of sexual offenses to do, which is to call the
• 10:53
  S3: suspected perpetrator in the hopes of eliciting a confession and
• 10:57
  S3: tape that phone call. Right. Because. So you've got some
• 10:59
  S3: sort of evidence because, of course, in with these sorts
• 11:02
  S3: of crimes, there's often no witnesses. So you did you
• 11:05
  S3: called your former teacher. So what was that like?
• 11:08
  S2: Yeah. Oh, that was one of the hardest things I
• 11:10
  S2: think I've ever done. Um, and did a lot of work.
• 11:13
  S2: So the gentleman I mentioned before, Patrick Tidmarsh, I'd spoken
• 11:16
  S2: with him around. How do I frame this conversation? I
• 11:19
  S2: want to, I want to get this right. This is
• 11:20
  S2: so important. And knowing there's likely going to be other
• 11:24
  S2: victims that come forward. If we can get something that
• 11:27
  S2: is really good evidence, then we might save everyone from
• 11:29
  S2: going through a trial because he may have to obviously
• 11:32
  S2: overwhelming evidence. So I worked with Patrick on how to
• 11:35
  S2: frame that question, but I remember the police coming to
• 11:38
  S2: my place the day of. You know, we we'd planned
• 11:42
  S2: we were going to call on a particular day that
• 11:44
  S2: night before. No sleep whatsoever. Just the anxiety and stress.
• 11:49
  S2: And then the challenge with that, you know, the push
• 11:51
  S2: pull of, jeez, I've asked so many people to do
• 11:54
  S2: this and here I am now about to do it myself. Um,
• 11:59
  S2: the anxiety was overwhelming. I was really not in a
• 12:02
  S2: great place, but it was determined that I wanted to
• 12:04
  S2: do it and do it. And we did it and
• 12:07
  S2: we did well. But just that, that moment of, um,
• 12:12
  S2: anxiousness of the call and probably, you know, not knowing
• 12:15
  S2: where it was going to go or how the conversation
• 12:17
  S2: was going to going to turn. Um, but it was
• 12:20
  S2: taking me right back and I had to do it
• 12:21
  S2: for the 14 year old version of me. I think
• 12:23
  S2: the biggest fear for me was if he just blatantly
• 12:26
  S2: denied everything and I guess accused you of making it
• 12:30
  S2: up or, you know, calling you crazy or something like
• 12:33
  S2: that because it's trying to validate or your own memory
• 12:36
  S2: and your own experience, because I hadn't told anyone before.
• 12:40
  S2: And that's part of that shame and guilt of, you
• 12:43
  S2: know what if he just says, you're an absolute idiot,
• 12:45
  S2: this never happened and hangs up.
• 12:46
  S3: And so what actually happened?
• 12:48
  S2: Well, the conversation started out quite friendly, which was surprising.
• 12:51
  S2: I think it was quite oh, you know, haven't heard
• 12:52
  S2: from you in a while, which had been a long time.
• 12:55
  S2: And I had to really quickly take control of that conversation,
• 12:57
  S2: which was the psychology behind it of this conversation is
• 13:00
  S2: not going to go the way you think it is.
• 13:02
  S2: I need to talk about and had to go directly
• 13:05
  S2: to the offending and what happened. So in my mind,
• 13:08
  S2: I know this is likely going to be played before
• 13:10
  S2: a jury. So I had to be very clinical around.
• 13:13
  S2: We need to talk about what you did, but putting
• 13:15
  S2: your hands down my pants and offending against me.
• 13:18
  S3: Yeah.
• 13:19
  S2: And it was silence. And then I had to own
• 13:22
  S2: the silence by letting him speak first. So that felt
• 13:26
  S2: like an eternity. But I think it was only a
• 13:28
  S2: matter of seconds. And in the end, you could just
• 13:31
  S2: feel the oxygen of that conversation just leak. It was
• 13:33
  S2: gone and he was in shock of being confronted by this.
• 13:36
  S3: And what did he say?
• 13:38
  S2: No denials, that's for sure. So, um, he said, um,
• 13:41
  S2: eventually there's a few, few calls, but eventually he finally
• 13:44
  S2: got to the point of I can't remember doing that
• 13:46
  S2: to you, but if I did do that to you,
• 13:48
  S2: then I'm sorry. So that was a real moment that
• 13:52
  S2: that got me that got me. After I hung up,
• 13:54
  S2: I lost it, started crying and broke down and, you know, um.
• 13:58
  S3: And why, what were you thinking in that moment? What
• 14:00
  S3: was so upsetting?
• 14:02
  S2: I think finally, finally an acknowledgement of that he'd done
• 14:05
  S2: this in my mind. I'm like, well, that's, that's almost
• 14:07
  S2: as good as a, you know, an apology. If I
• 14:10
  S2: did that, he just wasn't ready to admit about what
• 14:13
  S2: he'd done. So it was real. It was a validation
• 14:15
  S2: for me. And I thought, you know, this, this is
• 14:18
  S2: hopefully going to be good enough for the police to
• 14:20
  S2: be able to prosecute and put him before a court
• 14:23
  S2: and let let a judge, a jury decide.
• 14:32
  S3: We'll be right back. After this, there's a very long
• 14:38
  S3: court process which began. I'm just going to pause here
• 14:40
  S3: while I tell listeners what happened, because this man, this
• 14:43
  S3: former teacher, he was jailed in March for abusing four
• 14:46
  S3: other boys, yet he was found not guilty in your
• 14:49
  S3: case in December last year in a judge only trial.
• 14:52
  S3: So there was no jury. So first off, what was
• 14:54
  S3: it like experiencing the justice system as a victim? Because
• 14:57
  S3: of course, this is the system that you had relied
• 15:00
  S3: on to uphold the law for your whole career.
• 15:03
  S2: Yeah, probably a big shout out to everyone I've asked
• 15:06
  S2: to go through it. You know, it's it's not great.
• 15:09
  S2: It was it was a real roller coaster in four years. Like,
• 15:12
  S2: it's just, it's really a process that's got to change.
• 15:17
  S2: It's got to get better. I think, you know, the
• 15:20
  S2: people that are in the power to be able to
• 15:21
  S2: make change have really got to look at that for
• 15:23
  S2: four years. And look, the the system is there for
• 15:27
  S2: people to try and abuse as well. So every time
• 15:30
  S2: there was a delay, every time there was another adjournment or,
• 15:33
  S2: you know, it was just revictimizing you all over again.
• 15:36
  S2: And I just, I just remember thinking for years, like,
• 15:38
  S2: how much longer? And there was times I wanted to
• 15:40
  S2: give up. I was like, this is too much. This
• 15:43
  S2: is just, you know what? You get on with your life.
• 15:45
  S2: You know, this is just going to end up in
• 15:47
  S2: more pain, more trauma. I know the numbers aren't great
• 15:50
  S2: to even get into a courtroom, let alone get a
• 15:51
  S2: guilty verdict. So I thought, why? Why do this to yourself?
• 15:55
  S2: But then eventually talk to some close, close friends around.
• 15:58
  S2: Now let's push on. Let's hold him accountable. And if
• 16:02
  S2: he has his day in court, then then I'll be happy.
• 16:05
  S3: And so how did this affect your family and your job?
• 16:08
  S2: Yeah. My job, um, affected it greatly because I didn't
• 16:13
  S2: make the decision to come forward and tell police until
• 16:16
  S2: after I'd left the job myself, until I'd resigned from
• 16:19
  S2: Victoria Police.
• 16:20
  S3: And was that intentional? Like, do you think you wouldn't
• 16:22
  S3: have disclosed it had you still been a cop?
• 16:24
  S2: Oh great question. I never thought about that. Um, it
• 16:28
  S2: didn't play part of my decision making whether I was
• 16:30
  S2: in or out. I think it just felt the timing
• 16:32
  S2: was right. Once I left the organization, I thought, right,
• 16:35
  S2: maybe this is the right time for me to confront
• 16:38
  S2: this and deal with it and probably hold him accountable. Um,
• 16:42
  S2: I don't know how I would have dealt with it
• 16:44
  S2: being within the system. It probably would have really, really
• 16:48
  S2: reframed my thinking. And it already has reframed my thinking
• 16:51
  S2: about the whole justice system. Um, I don't feel there
• 16:54
  S2: was much in it at all. Much justice, I mean,
• 16:56
  S2: at all. It was all in favor of him. It
• 16:59
  S2: was all in favor of the accused, the trauma of
• 17:02
  S2: delay after delay, um, having to retell everything and just
• 17:06
  S2: the system just let let me down is let probably many,
• 17:09
  S2: many people down just in delay alone. Um, I think
• 17:12
  S2: the saying goes justice delayed is justice denied. And in
• 17:17
  S2: my case so much and I know the system. So
• 17:19
  S2: I was like, I get it. I understand the adjournments
• 17:21
  S2: and whatever, and you just got to roll with it.
• 17:23
  S2: But just that impact on you personally and, and those
• 17:25
  S2: close to me, because I didn't I didn't tell my family.
• 17:29
  S2: I didn't want to burden them with that weight. We
• 17:32
  S2: had enough going on in our family at the time
• 17:34
  S2: that I didn't want to burden my parents, and I'd
• 17:35
  S2: never told my parents, and I didn't tell them what
• 17:38
  S2: happened until we ended up, um, post-trial.
• 17:41
  S3: And so what was that like to tell them? And
• 17:43
  S3: what was it like to hold that all those years
• 17:46
  S3: not telling them?
• 17:48
  S2: Yeah, it was, it was a tough one. It was
• 17:49
  S2: the challenge of do I, don't I, what do I
• 17:53
  S2: stand to gain by telling them? Um, what do I,
• 17:57
  S2: I didn't want to burden them like they're in their
• 17:59
  S2: 80s and you know, they can't change what happened. But
• 18:02
  S2: I just didn't want to add extra stress to them.
• 18:04
  S2: We'd we'd lost my older brother had passed away unexpectedly
• 18:07
  S2: around this time. And I thought, well, I just don't
• 18:09
  S2: want to burden them with more grief and more trauma.
• 18:12
  S2: Their own. I'll tell them when we have to, which
• 18:15
  S2: would be in the lead up to the actual court case.
• 18:17
  S2: And because there'd been a number of false starts with
• 18:19
  S2: the trial, I thought, let's just wait until we know
• 18:22
  S2: it's going to go. Then I'll tell them, because if
• 18:25
  S2: you know it's the local media were reporting on this case.
• 18:28
  S2: So my dad would ring me up every now and
• 18:30
  S2: again and go, hey, have you seen the paper about
• 18:32
  S2: old mate? And I'm like, well, dad, you just haven't
• 18:35
  S2: picked up on it, you poor, poor guy. You haven't
• 18:37
  S2: put two and two together.
• 18:38
  S3: And do you wish that he'd had on his own or.
• 18:40
  S2: Um, yes and no. I think, um I'm glad they
• 18:44
  S2: didn't in the end because, you know, I think it
• 18:46
  S2: just would have been too much for them. Yeah. Um,
• 18:49
  S2: whether that was a conscious or an unconscious decision from
• 18:52
  S2: them not to put it together. Um I don't know but,
• 18:55
  S2: but eventually, you know, I went, I went to Mum
• 18:57
  S2: and Dad's house and sat him down at home and
• 19:00
  S2: I rocked up unannounced to, to, to their place. Um,
• 19:04
  S2: and I think they knew by the look on my face,
• 19:06
  S2: you know, what's, what's all this about and, and told
• 19:08
  S2: them and said, um, the charges that you've been reading
• 19:11
  S2: in the paper, I'm one of one of them that
• 19:13
  S2: have come forward and they were just in shock. Yeah.
• 19:17
  S2: Quite upsetting, I think, for, for them to, to know
• 19:20
  S2: and as a parent now myself, um, so my youngest boy,
• 19:23
  S2: he's the same age now as I was when I
• 19:25
  S2: was offended against. So there was all that to, to,
• 19:28
  S2: to deal with as well.
• 19:29
  S3: So what was that like speaking to your children about it?
• 19:32
  S3: Because I know as a parent, when I hear that,
• 19:34
  S3: I think I mean, that's everyone's most parents. It's up
• 19:36
  S3: there with their worst fears, right? So how is it
• 19:39
  S3: like that to process that as a parent and speak
• 19:41
  S3: to your children about that?
• 19:42
  S2: Yeah. Um, look, they, they, they're amazing. I don't know
• 19:46
  S2: what I expected that that to be, but they were,
• 19:49
  S2: you know, my daughters just hugged me and my son
• 19:52
  S2: and I'm going to get emotional. Um, sorry. Yeah. Asked
• 20:00
  S2: her to tell my son and and and for him
• 20:03
  S2: to look at me like that happened to you at
• 20:04
  S2: this age. That was that was hard. But they were
• 20:08
  S2: so supportive and well done, dad, for doing this. And, um, yeah,
• 20:13
  S2: the older kids wanted to probably do to take things
• 20:16
  S2: into her own hands. Like, no, we're good. We got this. Um, yeah,
• 20:20
  S2: but that's that roller coaster of it all, isn't it?
• 20:22
  S2: So telling them was probably one of the hardest things
• 20:24
  S2: to see them. Um, you know, see, see them or
• 20:28
  S2: have them see you like this. So yeah. Um, but
• 20:31
  S2: have to reassure them that I'm okay. I've got good
• 20:35
  S2: support and I'm telling you because you need to, you
• 20:37
  S2: need to know about this. And this is what I'm
• 20:39
  S2: going through because you have to go away for court
• 20:42
  S2: and be away and just probably telling them that, you know,
• 20:46
  S2: my mind's a bit vacant at the moment and I'm
• 20:49
  S2: off because they can sense it. You know, kids can't.
• 20:51
  S2: They can see when.
• 20:52
  S3: Dad's.
• 20:53
  S2: Not well and their natural reaction is sometimes, what am
• 20:56
  S2: I doing to upset dad? And letting them know this
• 20:59
  S2: is this has got nothing to do with you. This
• 21:01
  S2: is all me. But I'm good. I've got really good help.
• 21:03
  S2: So they're amazing. They're really good. And you know, at
• 21:06
  S2: 14 and 16 and in early 20s, they're old enough
• 21:10
  S2: to understand and old enough to have that. And we're
• 21:13
  S2: able to have some conversations about their own safety and
• 21:16
  S2: their own, um, journey through life in.
• 21:18
  S3: This.
• 21:19
  S2: Stage. So yeah.
• 21:20
  S3: And of course, this was such a grueling process for
• 21:23
  S3: you because my understanding of the case is that the
• 21:25
  S3: judge wasn't satisfied beyond reasonable doubt that you were a
• 21:28
  S3: reliable witness. So this must have been, I imagine, an
• 21:32
  S3: agonizing process. The judge drew on something that had happened
• 21:35
  S3: previously where you'd given evidence for the accused a decade earlier.
• 21:38
  S3: So can you just tell us about that a little bit?
• 21:40
  S2: Yeah. So that was ended up being probably 20 years earlier. Um,
• 21:47
  S2: there was other matters before the courts of similar nature.
• 21:49
  S2: And through my connections of his family, I'd been asked to,
• 21:53
  S2: to make a statement of, did anything happen to you?
• 21:56
  S2: And I made a statement, said, no, nothing happened to me.
• 21:59
  S2: Everything was disconnected. Um, which has been been probably the
• 22:03
  S2: biggest thing for me to try and deal with. Like how,
• 22:05
  S2: how did you disconnect this memory? And I'd put it
• 22:08
  S2: somewhere that just didn't want to know. So that stage, yeah,
• 22:11
  S2: 20 odd years ago had had given evidence under oath
• 22:14
  S2: that nothing happened to me.
• 22:15
  S3: And do you think you just hadn't perhaps come to
• 22:17
  S3: terms with what had happened to you, or perhaps you
• 22:19
  S3: just didn't recognize it as abuse yet. Or was it
• 22:22
  S3: something else entirely?
• 22:23
  S2: No, I think yeah, I think it had just been
• 22:26
  S2: put somewhere so far away that I had moved on
• 22:30
  S2: from my life with it. And I think what has
• 22:33
  S2: been described me now is the memory had been disconnected.
• 22:36
  S2: And then once it had been reconnected and now it's
• 22:39
  S2: it's there as if it happened, you know, last week. Um,
• 22:43
  S2: but that was one of my biggest fear coming forward.
• 22:45
  S2: And I go, well, I can't change what happened in
• 22:47
  S2: the past and I can't change that outcome, but I
• 22:50
  S2: can change what I do from here. So let's tell
• 22:52
  S2: the story and tell the court exactly what happened. And
• 22:56
  S2: you know, I know what happened, you know what happened.
• 22:59
  S2: And to have a judge or a decision that came
• 23:01
  S2: back not guilty, that's just the system. That doesn't mean
• 23:05
  S2: it didn't happen for me. It did happen. And, um,
• 23:08
  S2: it's just it's just the way that it goes.
• 23:09
  S3: And so how do you come away from that court
• 23:11
  S3: process then? How do you feel about it, especially now
• 23:13
  S3: that he has been found guilty of such similar offences
• 23:17
  S3: against other students from the same school.
• 23:20
  S2: My first reaction when I found out that he was
• 23:22
  S2: guilty of some matters, because I'd been made aware that
• 23:25
  S2: he'd been found guilty of some matters before my trial
• 23:27
  S2: actually took place. I thank God he's been found guilty
• 23:30
  S2: of something. Um, and then whether mine got up or not,
• 23:34
  S2: at least he's going to be found guilty of something.
• 23:35
  S2: And for all of us as victims. I can't speak
• 23:38
  S2: on behalf of any of the others, so I actually
• 23:40
  S2: don't know who they are. Um, I never met some
• 23:43
  S2: of these other people. I didn't know their names, um,
• 23:45
  S2: but to, to, I guess have a connection through being
• 23:48
  S2: a victim from this grub, um, validated somewhat that, you know,
• 23:54
  S2: we all, we all know his secret is out. He
• 23:56
  S2: is now a convicted paedophile and he has to live
• 24:00
  S2: with that. And we all now know what happened. You know,
• 24:02
  S2: these predators work in silence and everyone not saying anything.
• 24:05
  S2: And now his dirty secret is out for everyone to see.
• 24:09
  S2: He's convicted. So whether it's against me or or others,
• 24:12
  S2: I didn't particularly worry too much about that. He was
• 24:14
  S2: convicted of something and his dirty secret's out.
• 24:17
  S3: Which really brings us, I guess, to the present moment
• 24:19
  S3: or the last few years, because many people who are
• 24:23
  S3: listening to this, watching this, they might recognize you because
• 24:26
  S3: after you left the police force, you were on a
• 24:28
  S3: reality TV show called hunted. So you've got a public profile.
• 24:32
  S3: Why did you decide to tell this story of what's
• 24:34
  S3: happened to you? And I guess, how hard is it
• 24:36
  S3: for you to do it? And why? Why why put
• 24:39
  S3: yourself through it?
• 24:40
  S2: Yeah. Um, for me, I, I find it's, I just
• 24:43
  S2: think there's so much great work being done in this
• 24:46
  S2: space around gender based violence and domestic violence. You know,
• 24:49
  S2: there's enough one in, I think it's now one woman
• 24:52
  S2: every 8 or 7 and a half days now is
• 24:54
  S2: murdered at the hands of a man. And that's got
• 24:57
  S2: to change. And there's not enough men standing up to say,
• 24:59
  S2: we've had enough of that, but also not enough men
• 25:02
  S2: coming forward and, um, normalizing this conversation because these predators
• 25:08
  S2: work in the shadows. They they thrive on silence. And
• 25:11
  S2: if we can have a conversation. And yeah, you're right,
• 25:13
  S2: as a d-grade celebrity, um, it's, uh, it wasn't something
• 25:18
  S2: I deliberately chose to do, but when I went, okay,
• 25:21
  S2: there's a bit of a profile here. Maybe I can
• 25:22
  S2: use that to actually tell my story. And there's so
• 25:25
  S2: many people out there that may have experienced a similar thing. Yeah. Um,
• 25:29
  S2: you know, 1 in 5 boys, uh, at some point
• 25:32
  S2: sexually assaulted. And that number is just horrific. 1 in
• 25:35
  S2: 3 women. That's just as horrific. So for me, my
• 25:38
  S2: purpose is to tell my story, be vulnerable, to tell it,
• 25:41
  S2: tell the whole lot, be vulnerable about it, and go,
• 25:44
  S2: I've there is help out there. I try to do
• 25:47
  S2: it on my own for so long. Doesn't work. It
• 25:49
  S2: doesn't work. Yeah. You won't find the answer in the bottle.
• 25:53
  S2: You won't find the answer of not talking about it.
• 25:55
  S2: There's great help. Doesn't mean you have to go and
• 25:57
  S2: report to the authorities. You don't have to. You can
• 26:00
  S2: still go and tell the counselor. Get help. Um. It's
• 26:03
  S2: the best thing I ever did, I this version of
• 26:05
  S2: me now is so much better than the one that
• 26:07
  S2: held the secret.
• 26:12
  S3: Well, it is such a privilege to hear your story,
• 26:15
  S3: and I'm so thankful because I think it's such a
• 26:18
  S3: powerful thing for anyone to see people being vulnerable and
• 26:21
  S3: telling the stories. But like you say, especially men and
• 26:24
  S3: boys who are so often told not to be vulnerable.
• 26:27
  S3: So thank you so much, Graham, for your time.
• 26:29
  S2: Thank you.
• 26:33
  S3: And just a note, we mentioned in this interview that
• 26:35
  S3: the alleged perpetrator was jailed for separate offences against other students.
• 26:40
  S3: He has since lodged an intention to appeal his case
• 26:43
  S3: on a date yet to be determined. Today's episode was
• 26:49
  S3: produced by Josh towers. Our executive producer is Tammy Mills,
• 26:53
  S3: and our podcasts are overseen by Lisa Muxworthy and Tom McKendrick.
• 26:58
  S3: If you like our show, follow the Morning Edition and
• 27:01
  S3: leave a review for us on Apple or Spotify.