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Feminists Around the World: An Update on the 4B Movement · Stuff Mom Never Told You

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha, and welcome to Steffone
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: Never Told your production of iHeart Radio.
• 0:18
  Speaker 2: And welcome to another edition of the minist Around the World.
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: I'm just gonna go ahead and let you all see
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: behind the curtains a bit. It's been a rough several
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: days due to some things that has happened in my family,
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: which I'm going to talk about for the Happy Hour.
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: So if y'all stay tuned this week or whenever y'all
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: want to do this, you may understand why. But so
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: with that, I'm kind of cheating on this one, Annie,
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: because I've been kind of in a brain fog. I
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: actually did choose a specific person that I was going
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: to come to, but I've just been, you know, in
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: that level of like chaos emotional state. Also, just like
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: for me, when I get into a specific place where
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: it's sadness and depression and like emergency situations, I go blank.
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: I am the freeze, but it looks like I'm being stoic.
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: So it's like I don't necessarily cry, but I don't
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: emote well. My tone of voice goes down and octave,
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: which has always been funny to me, like why do
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: I do that? And I think you can hear that
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: a little bit now.
• 1:22
  Speaker 3: But with that, I'm.
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: Doing a little cheating with this episode specifically because I
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: wanted it to come back and talk about the four
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: Be movement, which is the South Korean feminist movement that
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: we talked about previously on an episode. In the feminist
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: movement in South Korea, because I've seen a lot of
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: things that's popping up on tiktoget is really like rearing up,
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: especially in the US, about what this movement is and
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: how indicative it is to everyone, all women essentially in
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: all people marginalized communities when it comes to finding the patriarchy,
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: and it's kind of gogotten its own type of legend
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: behind it because as we I think said previously, it's
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: actually a small sect when it comes to what's happening
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: in South Korea. Not a lot of people in South
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: Korea are talking about it, and that's kind of one
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: of the big things that TikTok creators have been talking about.
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: Who are Asian or know a little more about this,
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: they will tell you immediately it's not as big as
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: you think it is.
• 2:19
  Speaker 3: A b there's.
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: A lot of problems within this movement that you have
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: to consider, and I want to take time to talk
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: about that part because we also talked about the declining
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: birth rate, which is like South Korea has the lowest
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: birth rate at this point in time and continues to
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: go lower. And we did talk about the fact that, yes,
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: a part of this is because of the patriarchy and
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: sexism within South Korea, but also another big part of
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: that is because it's unaffordable and unattainable to have children
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: and live a life that is not impoverished essentially, and honestly,
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: like I want to link that to my own conversations
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: about adoption and why adoption even started in South Korea
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: and why it became such a big movement in South Korea,
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: and how all these children were just pretty much exported
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: out because they were a product. But this is that
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: same level of conversation. It never really has helped at all,
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: and then the people who are responsible for child bearing
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: and child bearing are not helped in any way. So
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: that's part of the big reason. But when we talked
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: about the four bing movement, we're talking about you know
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: the four nos, which is no sex, no marriage, no relationships,
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: no child bearing, all of that. So with that, which
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: sounds like a great idea. But one of the conversations
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: that have been happening within TikTok community, within feminist community
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: is the fact that when it comes to the trans
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: community in South Korea, they are not welcomed as in fact,
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: there has been accusations that this depth of radical feminists
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: that have happened within South Korea are pretty much turfs,
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: and that's exactly who they are. There is a group
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: of radical femin is called the Womed, which is like
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: putting women in nomad together who have been accused of
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: a lot of things that I'm not sure exactly everything.
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: Everything is kind of like heresaye for me, because as
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: I was researching Annie, there's not much conversation about turfs
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: within South Korea other than yeah, obviously they're there, like
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: that's kind of it. But there was a conversation about
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: how apparently there has been they will go out fully
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: testing people to make sure they are quote unquote biologically
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: women and we I hate that term. Please don't think
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: that I'm trying to say that. I'm just saying this
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: is what they are measuring in a very turf speak,
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  Speaker 2: that they are born with a vagina essentially and that
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  Speaker 2: they identify as women in that level biologically, and that
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: they will test whether they have an Adam's apple, they
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: have this like birth certificate, like all these things. They
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: go to the extreme to make sure that they are
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: not trans and in that level, accusing them of being infiltrated.
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: So take what like again, take this with like a
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: little bit of what I've been reading and what I've
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: been seen trying to really kind of uncover to the
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: level like take what JK. Rowling wants to do and
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: then times it by five and actually happening in these small,
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: very small sects that have existed in South Korea.
• 5:22
  Speaker 3: And again this is also that same conversation.
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: That they are very very very anti gay when it
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: comes to men, so they do not want anything to
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: do with gay men either and are very like offensive
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: in every way, to the point that one group of
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: feminists were like, hey, this is bad. Stop using these
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: derogatory terms towards gay men. And they're like, now we
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: want to We're going to We're going to keep doing
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: it because they are not one of us, essentially, And
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: this is that conversation we've had repeatedly where history repeats itself,
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: and maybe because when it comes to South Korea because
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: we've seen them as kind of a monolithe of one,
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: one specific group of people that haven't had too much
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: diversity up until recently, and they want more diversity because
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: they want that money, but they don't want to change
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: their own backwards ideas. And again, oh my god, I'm
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: gonna offend so much to the South Korean people and
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: communities and to my Asian peoples. I'm not saying this
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: is everyone. I am not saying that every South Korean
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: person is like this. I'm not saying every Asian person
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: is like this. Obviously I would hope that because as
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: a South Korean person myself, that would be awful.
• 6:35
  Speaker 3: But we can't deny this does exist.
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: So I'm talking about it as a whole in general,
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: as in, like, this is happening there, we have to
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: acknowledge it happening.
• 6:43
  Speaker 3: We can't look at one thing and neglect the other side.
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: Because what it comes down to is the lack of intersectionality,
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: which has been a lesson that we have learned repeatedly,
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: and knowing that this is important for any movement, for
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: any type of equality or equity to happen, intersectionality has
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: to be in this conversation. This is why so many
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: things have failed within our own system in the US.
• 7:07
  Speaker 3: We know this.
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: We know that when we were talking about the rights
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: to vote, women's rights to vote, they did not give
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: about people of color, specifically about black women. And to
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: this day it's still that conversation when it comes to
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: equitability and who gets what and why, there's a hierarchy
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: within feminism and within women's ranking or within those people
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: who are marginalized. So I say that as an overall
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: caveat to know not all South Korean people feel this way,
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: as in fact, the people that I have been looking
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: at or watching or seeing TikTok creators who are South
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: Korean are in the same conversation as I am.
• 7:46
  Speaker 3: I'm in.
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: I feel like I've got a good ranking of people
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: who are like, Okay, great, these are my people. My
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: FYP is working for me. Wonderful in that we think
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: that this conversation to be had, this idealized version of
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: the four P movement, is wonderful in that like, yes,
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: we want to have a call to equality and to
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: build a better system for not only women, but every
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: marginalized person ever, and that this is part of the change.
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: So it's interesting to see and have this conversation about
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: what this looks like because again, like there's that small
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: group of people that came through and was like, yeah, yeah, yeah,
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: we want rights, but we need to start with only us.
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: It's kind of that that's not gonna work for you, boo.
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: It's gonna kill this movement. It's gonna kill it in
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: every way. But if we can do a sustainable level
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: of growth in understanding that, this is a good, great start,
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: but now you need to look at the bigger picture.
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: And that's again that whole like conversation when it comes
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: to movements like the Fourbe movement. For those who are
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: talking about and celebrating it, there's parts of a week. Again,
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: I think it's great to celebrate. I'm like, yes, stick
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: it to the man literally, but but we have to
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: look into what is behind the scenes and yeah, where
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: it's coming from, and what they think it is their
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: change impacting that community. And from what I gather, obviously
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: the birth rates are not great and the Korean government
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: isn't panic I've seen recently.
• 9:40
  Speaker 3: Again my TikTok feed.
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: Is hilarious, but a lot of Korean celebrities specifically men
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: trying to encourage people to have babies, like as a
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: side note, as if like you know, when you have
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: a go like a movie like go Dogs, or like
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: when you like are a fan of something, you just
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: run in there the braves or something like randomly move on.
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: But that's what I'm saying celebrities and have children, Like
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: it's like, wow, they're really desperate in this conversation and
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: trying to get like people to have more and more children.
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: Of course, the bigger conversation about like who is providing
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: what and what is being said, and we talked about
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: this again with the birth rate episode, that they're just
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: putting small band aids and not looking at the bigger picture,
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: which is a fault for both sides.
• 10:30
  Speaker 3: And when I say both sides, for those who.
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: In the government who are like, oh, women are the problem,
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: but you know here you go, let.
• 10:35
  Speaker 3: Me help you with daycare. That's it.
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: As where feminists are like, all right, we're gonna stop
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: having children, We're gonna stop getting with men.
• 10:43
  Speaker 3: And I do know one.
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: Specific founder of this movement or at least like a
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: spokesperson for the movements like just you know, merry women.
• 10:52
  Speaker 3: But it's like, yeah, let's do that.
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: That makes sense again, but they leave out so many
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: more people and so many others, And again knowing that
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: movements like this radical movements like this, and I use
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: the word radical, which it feels like a double edged
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: sword because it's used as a negative in so many
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: ways too. Because when I saw radical feminists, it didn't
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: hit me in my thought process of being like, oh,
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: there turfs, even though that's in the name right in
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: my ideals when it came to South Korea, because feminism
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: was so not new necessarily but becoming kind of growing
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: in the last ten years and has fluctuated much like
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: everywhere else that I was hoping that I don't know,
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: like it didn't include turfs.
• 11:37
  Speaker 3: But I should have known better because.
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: We also know that the queer community in places like
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: South Korea are not widely accepted. It's still taboo. Is
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: still one of those things that you should be a secret.
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: They're not gonna outright like crucify you. I guess it's
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: a better way to say, although I'm not necessarily true
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: that they do. They people get are in violent situations
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: and get a used and are taking advantage by the
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: system because they're queer, but.
• 12:06
  Speaker 3: Knowing that they are just like, shit, no, it's not
• 12:08
  Speaker 3: that bad here.
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: It's kind of the same thing where they say, no, no,
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: there's no racism in South Korea.
• 12:11
  Speaker 3: What are you talking about?
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: What?
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: No, no, no, and then you're like, no, you are
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: appropriating and then essentially just stealing content or stealing things
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: from the black community of the US because you like
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: it so much, but you don't want to give credit
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: and you want to make.
• 12:24
  Speaker 3: Money like you're stealing.
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: But that's you don't think that's racism, which is an
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: odd flex just pretending like it doesn't exist, like yeah, no,
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: it's still it still does you're being racist. Or when
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: you say you don't you don't know about black people,
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: and then you do a really bad stereotypes of what
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: you think because you saw it from a racist film
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: in the US. From the US, it's just so many
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: double edged swords. But just because you pretend like it
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: doesn't exist there, or they don't talk about it as
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: as much as there, that it doesn't exist, then that's
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: a problem. And that's kind of that level of what
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: I've seen within that four Be movement, which again, according
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: to many, many many, is not that big it's again,
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: I think it's growing more popular internationally than it is
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: anywhere else. And you know, and because many of those
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: who understand not to appropriate, they leave the original term
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: as is. Although I want to say, take off your
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: corset was a movement that was essentially like westernized with
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: the whole corsets uh binding women, and that was a
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: movement essentially similar to that burning the bra all those
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: to the flour bee movements.
• 13:40
  Speaker 3: So it's something to remember.
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: But I'm saying all this because I think it's important
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: that we look at every aspect, because if we ignore
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: the bad, then we allow for history to repeat itself
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: where it's like we eat our own essentially, and that's
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: going to be a problem, and I don't want to
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: see that happen. I would love again for equality in
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: itself and equity in itself to come through, but also
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: to remember who we're fighting for, and it's not just
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: us as individuals or our own small community.
• 14:12
  Speaker 3: And I'll say, I say small and very like.
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: You know, our very niche community as opposed to realizing
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: the bigger picture.
• 14:20
  Speaker 3: Once again, Yes, yes.
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: It's important to talk about this stuff.
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: I'll just bring all the bad. I'm like I'm the
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: I am again the sad sack Sam over here. You're
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: welsome And for those of you who may because I
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: think I've gaining a little few more Korean listeners and
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: I'm loving that.
• 14:41
  Speaker 3: Hello, Hi, if you.
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: Want to tell us about if you want to send
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: us some more information, we would love that. Obviously we
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: are very us centered. I was had a hard time
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: finding anything outside of for be movement yay, so we
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: would love to know the ends and outs what you think.
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely well listeners. If you would like to contact
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: us about that, you can. You can email U at
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: Stephanie and mom Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com. You can
• 15:07
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• 15:09
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• 15:12
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• 15:14
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• 15:17
  Speaker 1: our super producer Christina, our executive producer My and our
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: contruder Joey. Thank you and thanks to you for listening
• 15:23
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