Latest / Equine Assisted World with Rupert Isaacson / Autistic Voices in Equine Therapy: Dr. Rebecca Evanko on Female Autism & Wilder Wood | Ep 37

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Autistic Voices in Equine Therapy: Dr. Rebecca Evanko on Female Autism & Wilder Wood | Ep 37 · Equine Assisted World with Rupert Isaacson

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Rupert Isaacson: Welcome to Equine Assisted World.
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I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson, New York Times best selling
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author of The Horse Boy, The Long Ride Home, and The Healing Land.
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Before I jump in with today's guest, I just want to say a huge
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thank you to you, our audience, for helping to make this happen.
0:15
I have a request.
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If you like what we do, please like, subscribe, tell a friend.
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It really helps us get this work done.
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As you might know from my books, I'm an autism dad.
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And over the last 20 years, we've developed several
0:31
equine assisted, neuroscience backed certification programs.
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If you'd like to find out more about them, go to newtrailslearning.
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com.
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So without further ado, let's meet today's guest.
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Welcome back.
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I've got two very interesting people.
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I always have interesting people obviously, but I've
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still especially interesting.
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Dr.
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Rebecca and Dr.
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Mark Avanco, sorry, Evko.
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Thank you.
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Who run Wilder Wood Niche Niche is a bit south of Albuquerque in New Mexico.
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And what makes them I think, a little bit unique in the equine therapy world
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or equine assisted world is that there's very much an emphasis on female autism and
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as an autism dad myself I've definitely been aware over the years that many
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women on the spectrum go under the radar.
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And this can be good, this can be bad, but it is a fact.
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And where it can be good for a while, it can be bad later.
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Or even if people do learn to cope without official supports it
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can just be extremely stressful.
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And I think it's it's very interesting to be looking at a program that
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really holds this front and center.
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So Dr.
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Rebecca, who started this program is on the spectrum herself and is going to tell
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us a little bit about her experience.
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And her husband Mark, who's a physician is also Neurodiverse with a DD.
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So together they make quite a discerning combo.
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For how to approach th this particular set of conditions and how to bring out the
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best in people who might be struggling.
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And they've, they're developing a rather unique protocol, which they will explain.
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So guys, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
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Rebecca, can you tell us a little bit about your background, your childhood,
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what your experience as a girl and a young woman was with autism and why
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it's led you to the work that you do?
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Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
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Yeah.
2:50
Sorry.
2:50
Sorry.
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We've got open-ended questions like that can be quite difficult for me.
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Oh, no
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Rupert Isaacson: doubt.
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Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
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I, I'm gonna let Mark speak for me just a little bit while I process that.
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Okay.
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If you don't mind.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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So
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Dr. Marc Evanko:
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whenever.
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So, Rebecca, as Rupert, you and I had talked a little bit prior to the, the,
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the podcast Rebecca was in Queensland raised by two adults who really
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did not know anything about autism.
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There was not much known about autism, especially in females.
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It was not even known about Asperger's syndrome when she was a, a young child.
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And so much of her experience as a young child was being
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asked, what's wrong with you?
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And, and this has of course, been quite impactful.
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Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
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Well, I didn't want to, I didn't want to do anything.
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I didn't wanna do the social things.
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All I wanted to do was, I was obsessed with horses and I just wanted a horse.
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And of course we lived in the city in, at the time when I was very young, and
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we didn't have, couldn't have a horse.
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And I just, that was, that was my world.
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And in fact, it was so much my world that everyone referred to me as between me
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and my sister, she was the musical one.
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I was the horse one.
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And then I think I was about 11 and my mother got a job up
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in Queensland in the country.
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And you know, I was very excited about this because it country
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meant that I could have a horse.
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And so that was my only interest.
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So we moved up there and I got, I, I got my horses and it was, it was wonderful.
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But my, my parents who had divorced.
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It thought me very strange, very problematic.
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I had no interest in school.
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In fact, I dropped out of school as soon as I legally could at the age of 15.
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And I just wanted to be with my horse.
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And I would do things like go riding my horse at two o'clock
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in the morning outside and wander around the town and on my horse.
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I thought it was a completely natural thing to do.
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It was very, very atmospheric.
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There was lots of mist and, and it was just wonderful
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having, I trusted my horses.
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I had a great relationship with them.
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I just got them.
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And they thought that that was very problematic and why wasn't
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I going to parties and things?
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And anyway they they eventually just walked out on me, left me in this
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little farm that I was on and at 15.
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And initially I thought, I thought it was wonderful.
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You know, I was there on my own.
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I.
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You know, there was some bread in the fridge and whatever, and jam and
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eggs and things from the chickens.
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And I, for a couple of weeks I just lived there.
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And then we got a knock on, I got a knock on the door and it was the
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landlord asking where the rent was.
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And I didn't have any money for rent.
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I didn't have any, any parents to go to.
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I had no idea where they were.
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This seems all very strange to some people, but it seemed quite normal to me.
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And anyway, it was quite traumatic because I got evicted from that
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place and I had to lose my horses and, which was devastating to me.
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So there I was without really with probably a grade nine education,
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you can call it that I didn't really pay much attention to school.
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And sort of had to survive on my own.
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So I got a job at a gas company.
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And I told, I've told Temple Grandin this story too, because it's sort of
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similar to things she'd experienced.
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I got a job at a gas company that provided natural gas to houses, and
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I was stuck out the back organizing these what they call dockets.
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They were gas receipts.
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When the natural gas was delivered, the drivers would bring back these, these,
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these dockets or these receipts, and my job was to organize them and sort
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them into date and customer order.
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And it was considered a terrible job, but I loved it.
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Not only was I sort of on my own, I didn't have to interact or do
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the social stuff with people.
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I could sit there and I, I developed a system to organize all of these
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gas dockets very, very quickly.
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And they were just amazed and, and then started to sort of promote me into jobs.
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I didn't really want to do.
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I didn't want to do customer facing work.
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I wanted to earn enough money so I could get my own place and get a horse.
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That didn't really happen until much later in my life when I realized I'd
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have to go back to school and get an education so I could get a job that
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would actually pay enough money to, to support horses which are very expensive.
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And so, you know, long story short, I went back to school and got my GED equivalent
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and then got a bachelor's degree, and then I got a master's degree and then a PhD.
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And, and then I met my now husband and we decided he had horses.
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And so we decided we would start something up to help autistic people the way
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that my love of horses and my ability to communicate with horses and his
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also could help other autistic people.
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And and so that's how Wildwood came about.
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And for quite a while, we, we offered what we called experiences
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to people to experience some of that interaction between horses and humans.
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And then this realization that kind of dawns on me after the fact as an
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autistic person, I think, well, I, I'd better get some sort of credentials
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to be able to do therapy properly.
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So I went back to school a final time and earned a master's in clinical mental
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health counseling with a focus on rehab and autism and got that credential.
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And so now we're starting our proper equine therapy program based on not
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only what I learned in that program and I learned a lot, but also my
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life and experience as an autistic person and a horse woman and my
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husband's life experience with horses and as a neurodivergent person.
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So I think that's probably it in five minutes
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Rupert Isaacson: with a few, a few a few glaring chasms in the
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narrative to which we must return.
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So the, the.
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Before I go over to you, mark obviously to have one's parents
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disappear like that is unusual.
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A couple of immediate questions come to mind.
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The first one is, did your sister go with them or did she stay with
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you or did she go her own way?
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I dunno if she was younger or older.
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Well
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Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
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she, she was five years older and we never got on and she, she
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didn't come to Queensland when,
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Rupert Isaacson: ah, when I went there.
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So she was okay.
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She was already outta the picture?
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Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
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Yes, I she was
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Rupert Isaacson: spectrum too out of interest?
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Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
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I don't think so.
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She was very much like my mother and my mother and I were like oil and water.
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So I don't think she was, but I haven't spoken to my sister for
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I don't know how long, 35 years.
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Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
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And when you say your parents left, so your parents were
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still together at that point?
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Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
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No, they, they weren't.
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They, they, they were divorced.
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It's very complicated, but I outlined it in my memoir Joy.
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The story is in, in that memoir.
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Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
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But those listeners who are coming to it knew which most people will, and I'm sure
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people will want to look at the book.
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Had you then moved up to Queensland only with your mother?
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Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
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Yes.
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Yes.
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And then my father.
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And was your father in
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Rupert Isaacson: any way involved at that point, or had
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he disappeared from the picture?
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Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
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Well, my father had disappeared quite a few times in my life and
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went to Africa actually Rhodesia.
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Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
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Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
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And did some questionable things there.
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I heard stories, but I don't know.
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He was a very charismatic man.
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I think he was autistic.
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Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
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Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
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And then he sort of appeared back in our life and.
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He ended up, my mother ended up getting him a job also at what
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became the University of Southern Queensland in, in Toowoomba.
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So they were both working at that institution for a while.
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Was your mother an
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Rupert Isaacson: academic?
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Were they, were they academics?
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Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
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Was they were both academics.
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Okay.
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In what field?
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Out
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Rupert Isaacson: of interest,
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Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
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my father was in journalism.
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Mm-hmm.
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And my mother was in theater.
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She was an actress.
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She was actually trained in London at the Old Vic.
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Rupert Isaacson: Oh,
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Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
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yeah.
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So she was an actress and, and very much an actress.
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Very much lived her life as an actress.
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And a very complicated, what some people tell me is a very unusual
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background, but it was normal to me.
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It was a, it was normally abnormal, I suppose.
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This one.
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Sure.
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Rupert Isaacson: When, when, when?
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So when she, when, so they left this house that you were in with horses.
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That's a fairly radical thing to do.
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How, how, and you were in your teens, you, you would think Yes.
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That you, well, well, not, not protective services or some equivalent
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would've gotten involved at that point,
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Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
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or not?
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Not quite.
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Not quite.
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They were living in separate places.
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Mm.
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I lived with my mother for a while and then she said to my
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father, I can't handle her.
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You take her.
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So he took me out on a farm and I lived with him with these horses.
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I see.
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And he was more interested in, in talking to the, the 19-year-old co-eds at the
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university and having relationships with those, with them than he was with me.
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And then my mother got very sick and so she went back, she went back to Sydney to
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get treatment and I stayed with my father.
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And her friends thought I was a bad influence, so they
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wouldn't tell me where she was.
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So I, I, I lost contact with my mother that way and then my mother died and then
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my father just was not there one day.
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So that's the background of,
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Rupert Isaacson: do you know where he went?
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Was there, was there any further story or was that it?
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There was no further contact.
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Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
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I found out about three years later that he went off with some student
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that he then married, even though he wasn't divorced from his fourth wife.
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And then he died.
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So it's,
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Rupert Isaacson: it's the stuff of movies.
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Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
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Yeah, I guess so.
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But
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Rupert Isaacson: the reason I think it's worth, it's worth knowing the
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details is that I know actually quite a few people who have a not
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dissimilar story, and I think it can be.
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Both male and female.
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And I think, you know, it's, it's such a unique experience when somebody
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finds themselves alone at that young age and sort of makes it work.
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And I think, you know, however difficult that is at the time, what of course it
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does is it gives that person incredible resilience and a set of things.
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Well,
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Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
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I, I think, yes, I think so too.
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And I think my, my autism, I didn't know I was autistic.
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I think it actually saved me.
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I never got into drugs or alcohol.
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Mm-hmm.
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I never got into crime.
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I never did any of that.
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It was almost like very matter of fact, okay, well I'm on my own.
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I don't have any education.
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I want to get back into horses.
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I need money.
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I better get a job.
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What can I do?
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Not much I can type, but yeah.
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So I went and got a job and it was just basically that black and white.
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Rupert Isaacson: Was there a point where you were homeless or
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did you, did you manage to Oh,
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Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
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yes.
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Oh yes, yes.
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And how did you
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Rupert Isaacson: survive those, that period?
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Well,
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Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
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you know, there were, there were, there have always been very kind
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people that I've come across in my life who, for whatever reason
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have been willing to help me.
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So sometimes I would stay, there was a, a lady at the corner store who I
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got quite friendly with, and she let me stay at her house for a week or so.
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And then there was some, there was an elderly couple who
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had actually known my mother.
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And I, I ran into them at a shopping center and they asked me
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how I was doing and I said, well, I haven't got anywhere to live.
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And they said, well, you can come and stay with us for a little while.
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So, you know, I had people like that who were willing to help
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me and wonderful professors.
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Who recognized or saw something in me, God knows what, but they saw
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something in me and they encouraged me.
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So they've been wonderful people.
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So even in the midst of all of this horribleness, there have been
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amazing people who have helped me.
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Rupert Isaacson: Well, I think this is, this is a really interesting
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topic because one of the things that I realized when my son was diagnosed
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and we were living actually on quite an isolated ranch in outside of
15:24
Austin, Texas, far from any family, you know, was the importance of tribe.
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And I grew up with a family that where there was a lot of extended.
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Always a lot of extended family cousins and cousins of cousins, and this one once
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removed and that one 12 times removed.
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And, you know, because South African colonial families, which we were,
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even though I was born and raised in London, but there was a lot of back
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and forth to Africa and constant procession of relatives coming through.
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When I had the experience of, you know, oh gosh, now what am I gonna do?
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I've got this, you know, nonverbal kid who's just floating away.
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And there is no tribe.
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Fortunately I had a sort of a buddy relationship with my next door neighbor
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who even though we were massively on other sides of the political
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spectrum from each other we both like to drink whiskey and we both like to
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ride and we both like to go hunting.
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And so we would do that together from time to time.
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He'd pull my leg about being a hippie and I'd pull his leg about being you
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know, whatever names I could come up with for his conservativeness.
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And we actually quite enjoyed that interaction so that when my son
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went through the fence and made a relationship with his horse, instead
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of saying, get off my property, or, sorry, you can't interact with this
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horse because he might fall off and, you know, you might sue me or whatever.
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There was this immediate like, yeah, here's the key to the saddle room.
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And it seems like you had similar relationships with people.
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And I wonder if this is something you talk about in your programs, the importance of
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community, the importance of relationship, the importance of tribe and chosen family,
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you know, even if your blood family isn't, you know, quite meeting requirements.
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Is this something which, 'cause it's there in your story, you, you, you
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emphasize at all in your programs.
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Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
17:21
Oh, yes, yes.
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For autistic women, which is our focus we very much emphasize
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what tribe is a good word the collective of other autistic women.
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We tend to get each other in the same way that autistic people and neurodivergent
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people can connect with horses.
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We tend to understand each other better.
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It's very, very important to find that sense of community and sense of
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belonging, much like it's, it it is for the horses in, in their own horse world.
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Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
17:52
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
17:52
I would
17:52
Rupert Isaacson: agree.
17:53
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
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You know, I think one of the worst things that I can think of, well, apart
17:56
from frank abuse to horses, which is just horrific, is you know, driving
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past and seeing a horse standing on its own without any other horses with it,
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without any other horses to interact with.
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I, I, I think they need each other and I think that.
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People need each other, and particularly autistic people need
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to find each other and connect with each other because we get each other.
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Rupert Isaacson: I would wholeheartedly agree.
18:23
Now there's one last gap in the narrative before I turn to you, mark.
18:27
It's rather a long way geographically from Queensland to New Mexico.
18:32
So, the meeting of Mark and you guys deciding to put this place together,
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obviously there's a backstory there.
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How did you end up in the USA and how did you guys end up meeting?
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Well,
18:47
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
18:47
as briefly as possible one of the ways that I survived
18:50
was when I was quite young.
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I thought it might be quite a good idea to get married.
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I thought it would be a way to, you know, find security.
18:58
And so I got married fairly young.
19:00
It was a dreadful mismatch.
19:03
He was a very good man, but he was into car clubs and barbecues and I wasn't,
19:08
and when I went back to school, we kind of separated and just realized
19:14
it was just hopeless at the time.
19:17
When I got my first it was getting my first degree, the internet was brand new.
19:22
And being a cocky little undergraduate, I had read an article by a professor
19:27
in the US in Texas that I disagreed with, and at the bottom there was an
19:32
email address and I thought, oh, I'm going to write to this person and
19:36
tell him just why I disagreed with his article using this thing called email.
19:41
And so I did, and he wrote back and that started a, a relationship.
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So I ended up flying over to the United States on a student visa.
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I finished my baccalaureate degree here and I married this professor.
19:56
That relationship didn't work out either.
19:59
And I divorced and I ended up I had my PhD so I was doing various work around
20:06
the country and, and not in a relationship convinced that I would never find anybody
20:11
who would be able to put up with me.
20:14
And I was seeing a psychologist at the time and the psychologist suggested,
20:18
well, you know, why don't you just give it one more go at finding someone?
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I said, oh, it's, no, it's no point.
20:24
There's nobody who'll ever put up with me.
20:26
And so, you know, I went onto one of those, I think it was match and
20:31
I put in my details and this picture came up of this very attractive man
20:36
who was standing there with this jaw dropping gorgeous Arabian trachea horse
20:43
and just looking, yeah, yeah, right.
20:46
Just looking into his eyes.
20:47
And I said, any man who looks at a horse like that.
20:51
Is worth talking to.
20:53
Mm-hmm.
20:53
And you know, of course at the time people had told me, well, you know,
20:57
you've got to create these profiles to make people interested in you.
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And, and I, and I was driving a Porsche at the time because, hey, if I couldn't have
21:05
a horse, I could at least have horsepower.
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So I had this picture of me sort of leaning over this Porsche,
21:11
and I used it as my profile.
21:13
And so I contacted this guy.
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He looked, he looked, he looks at this profile and he thinks,
21:20
lady, you've got the wrong guy.
21:24
I don't care if I, I walk through,
21:27
Rupert Isaacson: you could buy for that Porsche.
21:29
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
21:29
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
21:30
You know, so, he sort of didn't, you, he kind of wrote back and
21:34
said, I don't think, maybe, I don't think I'm the right guy for you.
21:38
And, and yeah.
21:40
And, and then, i, you know, I, I didn't really think any
21:43
of, anything of it really.
21:44
I just sort of kept you as my favorite.
21:46
And then you can finish the story.
21:48
Dr. Marc Evanko:
21:48
Well, so in that story I looked at this woman, beautiful woman
21:54
over the Porsche, and I thought exactly what she just mentioned.
21:59
And I said, you know, your high heels are not gonna work here.
22:03
You're we are, it just goes through mud and, and you're gonna be cleaning poop.
22:08
You've got sand in your bed from
22:10
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
22:10
the p
22:11
Dr. Marc Evanko:
22:11
we've got three dogs, large dogs, and they're on the bed
22:14
and they're not getting off.
22:16
And this was my profile because I had been through a divorce and that's what
22:21
brought me to this very property with Sayed and ritzy, Tennessee Walker.
22:28
And I just I could not.
22:31
Fathom that I would be together with someone, but my friends said, why
22:37
don't you just try this after about 10 years of being completely single?
22:42
And I, no.
22:44
So that's when I said, no, no, no, you're not the one for me.
22:51
And then to kind of turn the knife, about two weeks later, I saw her thing
22:58
come up again on Matt and ISI said, am I still your favorite question Mark?
23:04
And sh she emailed back on Matt and said, will you?
23:08
Sure?
23:09
Yes.
23:11
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
23:11
And we sort of started talking from there, and that's how that happened.
23:15
Rupert Isaacson: Cool.
23:18
That's a great story.
23:19
Thank you.
23:19
Mark?
23:21
Yes.
23:21
A DD also neurodivergent.
23:24
Can I have your bio leading up to this point too, because I think it Sure.
23:29
Yeah.
23:29
It, it's, it's, it's unusual and valuable to find a program that's
23:33
run by two neurodivergent people.
23:36
So yeah.
23:37
What's your story, what's your perspective
23:40
Dr. Marc Evanko:
23:40
much in contrast to Rebecca's story in her early life?
23:45
I was raised by two parents who were together for, until
23:51
they both died, essentially.
23:53
And large family or eight siblings.
23:57
Wow.
23:58
And where was that?
23:59
Where,
23:59
Rupert Isaacson: where in the US was, right?
24:00
In
24:00
Dr. Marc Evanko:
24:00
New Mexico?
24:01
Yeah.
24:01
Okay.
24:01
In New Mexico, in Albuquerque.
24:04
And I had a relatively, what I would consider to be a relatively
24:12
stable and quote, normal life.
24:16
Went to school, finished high school.
24:20
Straight to college, straight to medical school almost straight to medical school.
24:25
Did two years of research before that.
24:28
Really never was com never really rode horses until I
24:35
got back from medical school.
24:37
Didn't have the money.
24:39
Did you always want to, had that always been a desire?
24:41
Interestingly enough, no.
24:45
I, I was a camp counselor at one of the ca the A-Y-M-C-A camp close
24:51
by Albuquerque, about 70 miles.
24:54
So it's 80 kilometers away from from Albuquerque.
25:00
And we would take the campers out with the rancher who
25:05
donated his time and his horses.
25:07
And then I'd get to ride with the other counselors through this beautiful meadow.
25:13
It was huge, actually a volcano crater.
25:17
Mm-hmm.
25:18
Up in the Hamus mountains.
25:20
He allowed us to do that.
25:22
But that was, that was really my horse experience.
25:26
My mother rode horses and she did dressage and she actually
25:31
had a a Tennessee walker as well.
25:35
And so it was interesting that when I returned from medical school, I met my
25:44
first wife and she came with a horse.
25:49
And the horse that was born in the stall next to hers is Saeed the
25:54
Trachea Arab that Rebecca mentioned.
25:58
I figured if I was gonna.
26:03
Learn how to ride a horse.
26:04
I wanted to learn how to ride a horse well and not need to do what many
26:10
western riders do around here, which is muscle the horse around, and use
26:17
the bit as a weapon rather than as a, as a kind and gentle way to ask the
26:25
horse to follow you in that dance.
26:29
So I started taking dressage lessons with a green 2-year-old
26:36
horse who was extremely athletic,
26:40
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
26:40
very smart,
26:41
Dr. Marc Evanko:
26:41
and very smart.
26:43
And I'm a green rider on a green horse.
26:46
It's not the best combination.
26:47
Quite a way
26:48
Rupert Isaacson: to learn,
26:48
Dr. Marc Evanko:
26:48
quite a way to learn green.
26:50
Green equals black and blue.
26:51
Yeah, that's, that is right.
26:54
And so we together went through three or four instructors before we met
27:03
James, our, our current James Reman, who is our now Ecol Dete instructor.
27:11
And he took me and sayed up to the fourth level of dressage and
27:19
we're very grateful for that.
27:23
It's interesting though, because one of the things I learned about dressage is
27:28
that it isn't necessarily, especially in the competitive aspects of dressage,
27:36
not necessarily the kindest to the
27:40
Rupert Isaacson: horse.
27:41
Sure.
27:41
Well, anything done competitively becomes a caricature of itself.
27:45
Yeah.
27:45
Dr. Marc Evanko:
27:45
Yes.
27:46
And that's, I, I did not realize that until we started showing.
27:50
And James is like, is this what?
27:53
And he knew at that time that that was really not what he wanted to do.
28:00
He wanted to do classical, true classical dressage, but could not find it.
28:07
Here.
28:08
And when he met and, and, and learned about ate immediately he switched
28:18
and is now a a trainer, one of only a handful in the United States.
28:24
And luckily he is right next door to us here, down in Peralta.
28:31
So that's my horse experience.
28:34
We, I.
28:36
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, let's talk a bit about your a DD and also
28:38
what kind of physician are you and how does that I'm a, I'm a gp.
28:43
Dr. Marc Evanko:
28:43
I, I have done a, a varied amount of activities as a gp.
28:48
It's interesting how times have changed.
28:51
I, early in my career did ER and urgent care and ICU work simply because of
29:01
the way we were able to do things then, and the liability and all
29:06
of those things that have changed.
29:09
So I have a lot of experience in a lot of different areas of medicine
29:13
Rupert Isaacson: do too.
29:15
Dr. Marc Evanko:
29:15
My training as an osteopathic physician here in America actually
29:20
gives me a different view of the.
29:24
Human condition than many allopathic physicians.
29:27
And I, I chose osteopathy over the allopathic profession because I felt it
29:34
was a much more comprehensive way to look at the human condition and, and medicine.
29:40
And so that's, that's why I'm a do and, and not an md.
29:46
Got it.
29:47
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, that brings, I think, quite a holistic perspective.
29:49
Tell us a bit about your a DD.
29:50
When, when did you realize you were a DD?
29:52
How has it impacted your life?
29:54
Do you feel, do you, do you consider it a superpower?
29:56
Do you consider it disorder?
29:57
What, what's your take?
30:00
Dr. Marc Evanko:
30:00
Like any, okay.
30:01
So the first question is how do I, how did I learn that I was a DD?
30:06
Well, A DHD it was actually, I was probably, and from the time I was
30:11
able to remember two, three years old my mother would frequently ask me.
30:19
Tell me, sit down and be still, sit down there and be still.
30:28
And did that become the litany for your life after that?
30:31
That was kind of the litany for my life.
30:34
And I'm, I'm sitting here right now as still as I can be, but my legs are
30:39
going, having to sit on your hands.
30:41
Yeah.
30:41
Yeah.
30:42
And so that was how I learned to do the compensatory skills that I needed
30:51
to calm, actually calm my mind enough that I could take in information and
30:57
be able to, without medications do what I did academically and scholastically
31:06
and, and be able to take things in.
31:09
But please don't ask me.
31:11
To remember something five minutes later, because I won't.
31:17
If you and I are talking and we have would you go get this?
31:22
Okay, I'll do it in just a minute.
31:25
It doesn't get done.
31:27
Mark, take your pills this month.
31:28
Did you take your pills?
31:30
I think I did.
31:31
Here.
31:31
Here's your pill.
31:32
You put 'em out because
31:33
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
31:33
I put 'em out for you.
31:34
Dr. Marc Evanko:
31:34
Right?
31:35
That's the only way it'll happen.
31:36
I mean, I may remember this evening because I walked by the cabinet where, you
31:42
know, the pills are, but the story that I would tell my clients and my patients
31:49
to help them diagnose themselves as a DD is my story about very common in my life.
31:58
I need to rake the leaves out in the yard.
32:01
So I'm on my way to the garage to get the rake, and I pass by the hose that hasn't
32:05
been wound up for three or four days.
32:07
So I start winding the hose up and then I note, I remember that the, the spray thing
32:13
on the end of the hose is not is broken.
32:16
So I need to go to the, the, the Home Depot.
32:19
Home Depot to get another one of those.
32:22
So I'm on my go to Home Depot and I get four other items and I'm on
32:26
my way back and think I didn't get the thing for the hose and, but
32:31
what was I originally going to do?
32:35
You?
32:36
Yeah.
32:37
Yeah.
32:38
And so this is my life.
32:41
I'll put a tool down.
32:43
And
32:47
where did it go?
32:48
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
32:48
Whereas I, in contrast, would have the compensatory strategy
32:51
of using a mole skin to plan.
32:54
Tomorrow I'm going to rake the leaves at nine o'clock.
32:56
So at nine o'clock I go out to rake the leaves.
32:58
Don't you dare disturb me.
33:00
Don't change my plans.
33:01
Don't do anything differently.
33:02
I'm raking leaves from nine to nine 50
33:07
Dr. Marc Evanko:
33:07
and I'm, I'm very good as long as there is someone in practice.
33:13
For instance, my MAs, my front office people would just say,
33:17
doctor, go into room six.
33:19
Okay.
33:21
That I could do and that I could focus on my client, my patient,
33:27
but outside of that room going in the halls and out distraction.
33:32
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
33:32
But I, I'd like to jump in here if I may.
33:34
You talked about compensator strategies, and I think that
33:37
was incredibly important to me.
33:39
My experiences may have been.
33:42
Unusual and disturbing and upsetting, but it taught me a whole lot.
33:46
I had to be, I had to take care of myself because there was nobody else to do it.
33:52
I had to develop strategies to do that.
33:55
And Temple Gran talks about this a lot too.
33:58
She expresses concern about autistic kids not being given enough, you
34:03
know, responsibility to be able to develop these alternative strategies.
34:07
Yeah.
34:08
So I developed very specific ways of doing things that I maintain to this day,
34:14
very complicated executive functioning setups that work for me that I developed
34:20
that people look at and say, oh my God, look at what you do to get this done.
34:24
But it gets things done and it, it taught me that I had to do it.
34:29
So I think that's something also that we, we, you know, emphasize
34:33
if, if a client comes in contact with a horse, if they're afraid.
34:37
They don't really know what to do.
34:38
I'm not gonna stand there and tell them how to do it.
34:41
We will just stand in silence and wait until there is some form of
34:47
communication, something that happens which we can then leverage and
34:52
say, did you notice this happening?
34:55
You can work out how to do this on your own terms.
34:59
And I think that that's a really important phrase for autistic people learning to
35:04
do things, but on your own terms, rather than trying to get to some non-autistic
35:10
ideal you'll never reach anyway.
35:14
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, I, I, I think I'm in agreement there.
35:16
With all our programs, you know, it, it's predicated on something called Follow the
35:20
Child and you could also replace the word child with adult or yourself or whatever.
35:26
But the idea is intrinsic motivation has to be, has to be the way.
35:30
No amount of good boys gold stars.
35:33
Or the other kind of motivation, which is course negative.
35:37
We'll get the job done.
35:38
And it was Temple Grandin actually who schooled me very early, and that's
35:41
the Rupert, you've got to follow the child physically, emotionally, which
35:46
means sensorily and and intellectually through what they're interested in.
35:49
And it made so much sense to me.
35:51
They was like, yep, absolutely.
35:52
Mm-hmm.
35:52
Got it.
35:53
And I just did that.
35:54
And of course, everything that we do flows from there, so I'm, I'm
35:58
right with you there, you know.
35:59
Quickly before we, I want to move on to your programs, but mark, just quickly
36:04
with you, when, when were you, were you diagnosed with a DHD at a certain point?
36:09
And then you mentioned medications, but you also mentioned no medications.
36:13
I presume that as a boy, if you had been a boy now at school, you'd
36:16
have been medicated, like boom.
36:18
Did you then come to be medicated later or did you manage to avoid
36:22
medications or, you know what, no.
36:24
No,
36:24
Dr. Marc Evanko:
36:24
I've, I've never been medicated.
36:26
But the
36:26
Rupert Isaacson: pills you
36:27
Dr. Marc Evanko:
36:27
were referring to are not a DD pills?
36:29
No, no.
36:30
I, oh, no,
36:31
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
36:31
they're not.
36:31
No,
36:32
Dr. Marc Evanko:
36:32
it's interesting.
36:33
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
36:33
He's racked up his body through falling off horses so
36:36
Dr. Marc Evanko:
36:36
well, and motorcycles and, yeah.
36:38
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
36:38
No, no, no, no.
36:39
I'm,
36:40
Dr. Marc Evanko:
36:40
I'm kidding.
36:41
I'm kidding.
36:41
Yeah.
36:42
But so, the answer is I've never been medicated for A DHD.
36:46
Yeah.
36:47
I the, the support that I got and, and just being accepted, interestingly
36:53
enough by family and, and I, I'm sure I had friends in, in school,
37:00
high school who were also, and we, we just kind of were there.
37:08
It's interesting because it, there was much more of a, it is a little weird, but.
37:16
He's okay.
37:16
Yeah.
37:17
He's not hurting anything.
37:19
And instead of this confirmation we have to conform and have this
37:25
child conform to the way things are.
37:30
That is, that seems to be going on a lot more these days.
37:34
So here's the medication.
37:37
Medications can be very effective tools for all kinds of different conditions.
37:44
I mean, I am on high blood pressure pills now that I was got long COVID, I
37:51
was stricken with COVID from the, when I was working at urgent care early on
37:57
in the, in the COVID circumstances.
38:00
I got COVID before there was even testing for it, and ended up in the emergency room
38:05
myself with blood pressures in the, in the two hundreds, over hundreds, whereas
38:13
a week before I was on zero medications, zero except for some ibuprofen.
38:21
Got it.
38:22
So, those are the medications I'm on.
38:26
And when did you get
38:27
Rupert Isaacson: your diagnosis?
38:29
I'm self-diagnosed.
38:30
Okay.
38:32
And similarly, Rebecca, were you self-diagnosed or did
38:34
someone give you a diagnosis?
38:37
If you're in the equine assisted field, or if you're considering
38:39
a career in the equine assisted field, you might want to consider
38:43
taking one of our three neuroscience backed equine assisted programs.
38:48
Horseboy method, now established for 20 years, is the original
38:54
Equine assisted program specifically designed for autism, mentored by and
39:00
developed in conjunction with Dr.
39:03
Temple Grandin and many other neuroscientists.
39:06
We work in the saddle with younger children.
39:10
Helping them create oxytocin in their bodies and neuroplasticity in the brain.
39:16
It works incredibly well.
39:17
It's now in about 40 countries.
39:19
Check it out.
39:21
If you're working without horses, you might want to look at movement
39:25
method, which gets a very, very similar effect, but can also be
39:28
applied in schools, in homes.
39:30
If you're working with families, you can give them really tangible exercises to do
39:35
at home that will create neuroplasticity.
39:38
when they're not with you.
39:40
Finally, we have taquine equine integration.
39:44
If you know anything about our programs, you know that we need a
39:46
really high standard of horsemanship in order to create the oxytocin
39:50
in the body of the person that we're working with, child or adult.
39:55
So, this means we need to train a horse in collection, but this
39:59
also has a really beneficial effect on the horse's well being.
40:03
And it also ends your time conflict, where you're wondering, oh my gosh, how
40:07
am I going to condition my horses and maintain them and give them what they
40:11
need, as well as Serving my clients.
40:14
Takine equine integration aimed at a more adult client base
40:19
absolutely gives you this.
40:20
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
40:20
No, I had a, I had a breakdown.
40:23
I was working as a dean, a college dean, and I, I just reached a point where I
40:29
just couldn't do it anymore and I broke down and was weeping under my desk.
40:36
So.
40:37
I got to see a psychologist, and fortunately this, I lucked out.
40:42
There was a woman psychologist who knew something about autism in women.
40:47
And so I was talking to her and she brought it up and she said,
40:51
you know, Rebecca, I'd like to talk with you about autism.
40:56
And I didn't believe it.
40:59
I said, don't be ridiculous.
41:00
No
41:00
Rupert Isaacson: one else had had suggested that to you before?
41:03
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
41:03
No.
41:03
I was diagnosed as a child with childhood schizophrenia because the psychiatrist,
41:11
they always said something was, there's something wrong with that child.
41:14
That was my mother's constant refrain.
41:16
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
41:16
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
41:16
And the psychiatrist had asked me in the office, I think, I don't
41:20
know, I was about nine or something, you know, do you hear voices?
41:24
And I was very literal.
41:27
And, you know, I said yes, because, you know, of course I heard his
41:31
voice and I heard people speaking.
41:33
There was nothing wrong with my hearing.
41:34
Right.
41:35
And so I was promptly, you know, the kind of, how old
41:37
Rupert Isaacson: were you at that time?
41:39
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
41:39
About nine.
41:40
Yeah.
41:41
And that diagnosis was absolutely incorrect.
41:44
Because I didn't, I didn't hear the types of voices that he was talking.
41:48
I didn't have delusions.
41:49
I didn't have, you know, anything.
41:52
I was very introverted.
41:53
I just wanted to be around horses.
41:55
So they saw that as, as being kind of, you know, not wanting to be around people.
41:59
And but anyway, so, you know, I hadn't, I always knew I was kind of different, but
42:06
when this psychologist talked about it, I, I, I started to learn more about it.
42:12
And then I was rediagnosed when I came to New Mexico.
42:16
Because I wanted some accommodations for my second master's program, right.
42:21
So I was rediagnosed by another psychologist with whom I work now
42:25
actually, and and that so diagnosed twice.
42:28
But yeah,
42:30
Rupert Isaacson: it's interesting the women that,
42:32
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
42:32
go ahead.
42:32
Sorry.
42:32
Go ahead.
42:33
No,
42:33
Rupert Isaacson: you go ahead and then I'll,
42:34
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
42:34
well, the, the women that we have seen as part of this major research project
42:38
to develop this new instrument, that is one of the most common things that
42:43
we hear, this history of misdiagnoses.
42:46
You know, everything ranging from schizophrenia anxiety, depression,
42:51
borderline personality disorder, bipolar disorder, O-C-D-O-C-D,
42:55
or social anxiety disorder.
42:57
All of these disorders, some of them certainly can exist co-occurring with
43:01
autism, but just a history of seeking answers without really getting anywhere.
43:07
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, I, I agree.
43:09
I, I think.
43:10
When it comes to the misdiagnosis and the work that I've done, it definitely
43:14
seems to be a more female thing.
43:17
Almost as if when girls are at school age, it might be changing.
43:23
Now the assumptions of autism tend to go to boys.
43:30
Mm-hmm.
43:30
Unless there's something, you know, it is like super severe, not speaking at all.
43:36
Okay, fine then.
43:37
But if it's, if it's anything mild than that and then yeah, there's, there's
43:41
a lot of flying under the radar or as you say, getting these false diagnoses.
43:44
And one of the things which I often find
43:46
I can understand it, but it's a symptom actually of how
43:51
mentally ill our society is.
43:52
I think in, in general, is the fact that all of these things have
43:55
a d on the end of them disorder.
43:58
You know, I spent so much time in the Kalahari.
44:02
I'm sure that I'm a DD or A DHD but I regard it as something that
44:06
allows me to have parallel careers.
44:08
Live parallel lives.
44:09
Yeah.
44:09
I'm forgetful.
44:10
Yeah.
44:10
I'm absent minded.
44:11
I mean, you know, you could have described me, mark with your thing of, of those
44:16
distractions, but probably, actually I'll get all of those things done.
44:21
Mm-hmm.
44:21
Yes.
44:21
If you look at the end of the month, actually I've got them all done.
44:23
It's just the timeframe might have been a bit strange.
44:26
But that allows me to do things like make a film and write a book and train
44:29
a horse and go travel over there and kind of keep track even, even though
44:33
I lose track in the short term.
44:36
I can kind of keep track.
44:37
And when I was with the sun, with the Bushman in the Kalahari, you know,
44:40
and I was observing a lot of hunting and gathering, I realize, oh, you have
44:43
to be like that because you have to constantly adapt to new circumstances.
44:48
When you are hunting, you know, the wind changes, the, suddenly there's
44:52
elephants over there you know, for a, a bazillion reasons you might have
44:56
to stop on the fly and do something else and have 10 other plans.
45:01
You know, when people joke about, oh, squirrel, it's like, well, yes, yes,
45:05
that squirrel might be your lunch.
45:07
You know, and if you, so if you are walking to see your friend and you
45:10
notice antelope tracks, you're going to, sorry about the visit, but I'm on
45:15
these tracks now because if I can get that antelope, actually I'll feed you.
45:19
And this, this is, so, these things aren't disorders unless one is
45:23
in a society, which where this personality type is not valued.
45:30
Or not understood.
45:31
And then sure.
45:33
It's regarded as a, as a disorder because then there's
45:36
such a narrow economic 'cause.
45:39
It really comes down to economics.
45:40
I think there's just such a narrow economic, participatory field, if
45:44
you like, that anything that isn't, as you say, completely within that
45:48
field, gets labeled a disorder.
45:49
But if it, if these things were all disorders, given that they, people have
45:53
had these since there were people, then we'd be a very inefficient species.
45:57
But we're not, we're the dominant species.
45:59
So presumably there's more to these things than meets the eye.
46:04
But I I, I absolutely agree with you on the female misdiagnosis and the confusion
46:09
and the misery that this can cause.
46:11
And the loss of self-confidence and the loss of ability to swim in the
46:20
world because you're always being told you're using the wrong stroke.
46:24
So with that in mind, go ahead.
46:27
Dr. Marc Evanko:
46:27
Sorry to one of your points and that just, just made one of the metaphors
46:33
that I have come up with is what, what brand of phone do you use?
46:38
I use a Samsung.
46:40
A Samsung.
46:41
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
46:41
Uhhuh an
46:41
Dr. Marc Evanko:
46:41
Android.
46:42
So do we actually, not a Samsung, but well, you've got a Samsung, I
46:46
think there's, there's basically two different operating systems.
46:50
Yes.
46:50
Yeah, yeah.
46:52
Both of them work.
46:55
Yeah.
46:55
Samsung, you can do everything on a Samsung essentially, that you
46:59
can do on an Apple, an iPhone.
47:01
Mm-hmm.
47:02
Nothing wrong with either phone.
47:04
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, exactly.
47:05
Yeah,
47:06
Dr. Marc Evanko:
47:06
that's, that's the metaphor.
47:08
I agree.
47:09
Rupert Isaacson: All right, so here you are.
47:10
You decide, okay.
47:13
You know, Rebecca, you've had this life experience and at what point.
47:17
Do you guys decide?
47:19
Actually, yeah.
47:19
Let's start a, let's start something therapeutic with the fact that we,
47:23
'cause you've both got jobs, you've both got careers at this point.
47:26
You know, you, you've, and you, Rebecca, you've achieved your goal.
47:30
Your, you have a home, you have horses, you have a good relationship.
47:35
So why then go the ex this extra mile and start wilder wood.
47:41
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
47:41
Well, we wanted to find a way to highlight that connection
47:46
that we both believe exists, can exist between horses and humans.
47:51
We wanted to do something to help other people, especially autistic people.
47:57
And so how it all started is I first sought certification through
48:02
a very well-known certifying organization because I thought that
48:07
would be a helpful thing to do.
48:09
And that organization actually had training on autism and the
48:15
therapeutic riding relationship.
48:18
So I started enrolling in that and I was getting more and more frustrated.
48:22
And Mark was noticing that.
48:24
And he said, you know, what's wrong?
48:26
I thought you wanted to do this.
48:27
And I said, well, what they're teaching is not gonna work for autistic people.
48:31
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
48:32
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
48:32
It's just not gonna work.
48:33
It's not gonna work for me and I'm not doing this.
48:36
So there's that black and white autistic thinking.
48:39
I shut it down.
48:41
And you know, so I actually, and I called them and I said, you know, when you were
48:44
designing this program, did, did you get actually any input from autistic people?
48:51
And there was this pause on the phone and they said, oh.
48:55
That would probably have been a good idea.
48:57
And I said, yes, it would have.
48:59
Rupert Isaacson: Well, at least they were honest enough to say that they were
49:00
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
49:00
honest.
49:01
They were very honest.
49:02
And, and then I just said to Mark, look, I don't wanna do this.
49:04
I, I wanna combine everything that we've done, all of our life experiences,
49:09
our horse knowledge and whatever.
49:11
I just wanna do something based on what we do, what we know,
49:16
and, and put put it out there.
49:18
And so that's, that's when it started.
49:19
It started really with a laptop in our living room and deciding to do this.
49:25
And it's grown from there and evolved as any healthy organization does.
49:29
Hmm.
49:30
And and now we're shifting off into this research component and this equine
49:36
EQU therapy and counseling component.
49:38
So it's, it's grown up, up to there.
49:41
Rupert Isaacson: It's great.
49:41
You know, just to your point, I'm gonna ask you to go through your,
49:44
your, your three main, programs here.
49:48
But just quickly before I do, it's very interesting this point about
49:51
not looking to the people that have the condition to advise one about
49:57
how to approach the condition.
50:01
You know, because my background is journalism.
50:02
So like when I, I tried a BA other types of things too observed very
50:08
quickly that they weren't working and then thought, well, okay, fine.
50:12
And it hadn't occurred to me to do anything with horses, despite the
50:14
fact that I'm professional horseman.
50:16
'cause my son's behaviors were so erratic, I thought he wasn't safe around
50:20
sport horses, which is what I was doing.
50:21
And I was probably right actually at that time.
50:23
He wasn't.
50:24
He created his own relationship with the Mayor Betsy, as I, as I spoke,
50:28
you know, and then we followed that and that was a very different path.
50:31
But what I did do when I said, okay, well fine, I.
50:36
I dunno what I, I, I did what the people told me to do, didn't work.
50:39
So now what do I do?
50:40
It was the obvious thing to me to do to reach out to Temple Grand.
50:43
It's like, well there's someone with autism who started nonverbal, like
50:47
my son pooing in her pants, wiping it on the walls just like my son.
50:51
And now she's made it.
50:52
Well that's the obvious person who, like, who else are you
50:55
gonna go to for mentorships?
50:57
So I sat in an office with her and said, how does my son become you?
50:59
And she said, do three things.
51:00
I did 'em and everything went from there.
51:03
But I remember going back to the other therapist and saying, this is what I went
51:06
and did and getting it thrown back at me that I was like some terrible parent.
51:10
And I was like, well, based on what you know, okay, fine.
51:14
Let's just go our separate ways.
51:16
Fast forward 20 years.
51:18
Rowan, my son last year was actually hired as a consultant by a study at
51:23
Manchester Metropolitan University in the UK to consult on how to make equine
51:29
therapies better for autistic people.
51:31
And he was one of our.
51:32
Of a group of autistic consultants, of people who'd, who'd actually had a lot
51:36
of equine therapeutic approaches, and what did they think could work better
51:40
and what could be improved, and which, you know, it's such a rational, insane
51:43
approach, but it's taken 20 years.
51:45
And he now is on another panel for that.
51:48
And he helps me do trainings and he explains to parents and practitioners.
51:52
But of course, as you know, this wasn't around back in the day.
51:55
It was everyone and their opinion.
51:57
And you either were lucky enough to luck into an opinion that held water or like
52:02
most opinions, opinions that that didn't.
52:04
So now you are one of the evidence-based partly through your
52:08
own experience programs out there.
52:11
You've got, it was on your website.
52:13
You've got tism, you've got EQU therapy, and you've got Radiance, a
52:21
research tool with a w on the front.
52:25
Named after a horse that you have that's so a warm blood of the same name.
52:30
Can you just talk us through, A lot of listeners will want to know
52:33
what your programs consist of.
52:35
So can we start with Tism, then go to EQU Therapy and then go to the Radiance?
52:39
Would that be all right?
52:41
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
52:41
We certainly can.
52:42
Jism is kind of an overarching principle.
52:45
There is a connection between there.
52:47
There are certain similarities between autistic people and horses.
52:52
I'll give you one example, parallelism.
52:55
Often you'll see horses out in the field who are communicating quite effectively
52:59
with each other, but they're parallel.
53:02
They're walking parallel, they're interacting on a parallel basis.
53:06
Autistic people tend to do that too.
53:08
We don't need to be, you know, in your face making eye contact talking with you.
53:12
I'm quite happy to sit here parallel to my husband and do my work and not necessarily
53:18
interact and I'm having a great time.
53:20
You know, that's one example of it.
53:22
So it's based on a premise that there are similarities between the
53:26
autistic way of viewing the world and an equine way of viewing the world.
53:31
It started off with that as experiences based on that idea, we
53:37
did not do therapy because I was not credentialed at that time to offer it.
53:42
So it was more of a interaction with horses just.
53:48
Interacting in the way that felt right for the person and the horse.
53:53
So autism as a concept is kind of a principle more so than a program now.
53:59
I am now qualified.
54:01
I have the master's in counseling and I have designed a program
54:06
called Counseling and EQU Therapy.
54:10
It offers both, it offers equine assisted therapy and also counseling
54:15
that can take place without the horse.
54:18
So it's kind of a dual counseling approach, but it is absolutely steep in
54:24
autistic knowledge, autistic preferences, honoring autistic communication,
54:29
honoring equine interaction.
54:31
And so clients can choose to do either the equine counseling, the
54:38
EQU therapy is entirely ground based.
54:42
We incorporate the principles of leisure tape interaction.
54:47
So acknowledging the horse as a partner, recognizing the importance
54:52
of communication, however that takes place not about structured
54:56
rules in terms of this is the way the horse is going to behave, but
55:01
what communication can we engage in?
55:05
What feelings and emotions rise out of that engagement and how can we analyze and
55:09
assess and synthesize those to make sense in a broader context to someone's life?
55:15
That those are the principles of the, of the F1 therapy and also the counseling
55:20
as well specializing in autistic women.
55:24
And because of that, there is a large grief component that is, that is addressed
55:30
because grief is one of the strongest feelings that can be present in a
55:35
late diagnosed autistic woman's life.
55:38
Grief over lost opportunity.
55:40
Grief over spending a lifetime thinking there's something wrong with me.
55:45
Grief in having to constantly mask and camouflage and not be authentic.
55:51
All of that needs to be worked through, particularly after a diagnosis.
55:56
So it's very much a niche counseling base.
56:01
And like most things I do in my life, I like to say slightly north of normal.
56:06
It's unusual.
56:08
A lot of it is based on, you know, as you were talking about what feels
56:12
right in this situation and, you know, yes, learn and listen from
56:17
others and take pieces of it, but put it together in your own unique way.
56:22
That's how you can make a, a, a difference.
56:25
I think that's how you can advance whatever it is that you're doing.
56:30
As far as the radiance is concerned, that's our research arm of what we do.
56:36
And we were very concerned about the standard and quality and
56:40
caliber of assessment instruments to identify autism in women.
56:45
So about four and a half years ago, we decided to change that and you
56:51
know, based on our knowledge and understanding, my PhD unwittingly looked
56:58
at aspects of autistic communication.
57:00
I didn't know it at the time, but it did.
57:03
We came up with the idea to develop not only a new instrument to psychometrically
57:08
assess for autism in women, but develop a new protocol around it as well.
57:15
So we came up with a survey instrument of 150 items of childhood and adulthood,
57:23
and we came initially started with an interview based assessment protocol.
57:28
We quickly realized the interview based was not going to work.
57:32
Rupert Isaacson: Why not?
57:33
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
57:33
'Cause it's an interview is based on spontaneity, it's based on social
57:38
communication, principles of interaction.
57:42
Okay.
57:42
So these are things that autistic women, a
57:44
Rupert Isaacson: written interview.
57:44
This was actually a face-to-face interview.
57:46
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
57:46
Face-to-face interview.
57:47
Yes, it was.
57:48
It was, it was a struggle.
57:49
But this is the way the paradigm is.
57:51
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
57:52
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
57:52
It's based on observation.
57:53
It's based on interview.
57:56
So I went back again to my own background.
57:59
My DA's in English, my masters in rhetoric and composition and literary analysis,
58:04
and my PhD's in cognitive linguistics.
58:08
So I went back to that and I said to Mark, we need to do away with the interview.
58:13
We need to construct, have them construct a narrative and analyze
58:18
that narrative through critical discourse theory to bring out themes
58:22
of what constitutes female autism.
58:26
Build our instrument and our protocol around that.
58:31
So we solicited participants and after four years now we've got over 900
58:40
assessments that we've done with input and narratives from over 900 autistic
58:46
women across the world that have enabled us to identify recurring themes of
58:54
what autism looks like in women, and adjust and create this instrument and
59:01
protocol of assessment that is much more finely nuanced to what's actually
59:07
going on in autistic women's lives.
59:10
We're very excited about it.
59:12
Not many other people have been excited about it because it's a
59:16
huge diversion from the paradigm.
59:19
The so-called gold standard instruments we think are quite problematic.
59:25
Rupert Isaacson: Can you gimme an example of, of what's called what people consider
59:28
at the moment a gold standard instrument,
59:30
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
59:30
the A OS two module four, the A DIR interview based and what and how,
59:35
Rupert Isaacson: and because they're based on face-to-face interviews or
59:38
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
59:38
they're based on neurotypical norms that were standardized on male autistics.
59:43
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
59:44
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
59:44
Also on observation, there's a component of the ADOS two that involves
59:49
storytelling and it's based on an outdated understanding that autistic
59:54
people do not and cannot have empathy.
59:57
Ah, that okay.
59:59
Dr. Marc Evanko:
59:59
Yeah,
1:00:00
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
1:00:00
there was, there has been something out of the University of Newcastle
1:00:04
in the uk called the A CIA interview protocol that we were actually
1:00:09
trained on, and it's a step forward.
1:00:12
It does actually acknowledge some of the things about autistic
1:00:15
people, but it's interview based.
1:00:17
Mm.
1:00:18
And it doesn't have a compendium instrument that has been normed
1:00:23
on autistic women, 900 of them.
1:00:26
So we are very excited about the radiance.
1:00:29
We've just finished phase two which means we're not accepting any
1:00:32
more participants that we figured.
1:00:35
I think 938 getting close to is what we're at right now.
1:00:39
So we're just about to start venturing into clinical trial where we have
1:00:44
with clinicians, and I think we've got about 16, who are interested so far
1:00:49
in actually taking this instrument and protocol into their own practice and,
1:00:53
and using it in the field to assess.
1:00:58
As part of that phase three, we'll get that data back, make
1:01:02
modifications if necessary.
1:01:03
I'd like to think there will be no modifications, but there will be.
1:01:07
And then once that's completed, then that instrument will be ready
1:01:11
to publish and hopefully be used.
1:01:15
So we get to the point where women who think they're autistic, say, I want
1:01:19
a practitioner who uses the Radiance instrument and protocol to assess me.
1:01:24
Rupert Isaacson: So it would effectively be a diagnostic.
1:01:26
It's a diagnostic tool.
1:01:27
It
1:01:28
Dr. Marc Evanko:
1:01:28
absolutely,
1:01:28
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
1:01:29
Yeah.
1:01:29
Dr. Marc Evanko:
1:01:29
Let me just put one point in about the Radiance that really sets it apart from
1:01:33
even the other surveys that are done.
1:01:36
First point is that there's no other survey that was devised by Autistics.
1:01:44
They're, they're all devised by non autistics,
1:01:48
Rupert Isaacson: right.
1:01:49
Dr. Marc Evanko:
1:01:49
The.
1:01:50
One huge problematic part of any of the surveys that we actually use
1:01:57
parallel to the Radiance survey is the Likert Scale where people are
1:02:03
putting themselves to numbers very problematic, a as, almost as problematic
1:02:10
as the the interview in that the, the client gets caught between numbers.
1:02:19
I'm not really a four, but I'm not a three either.
1:02:23
Sometimes I'm a two and sometimes I'm a two.
1:02:25
And depending on the context, I could even be a one on this particular.
1:02:30
And so struggling through those surveys.
1:02:35
Mm.
1:02:35
Which we are delivering actually side by side with the ratings because
1:02:42
they are, quote, the gold standard.
1:02:45
They get to the radiance, which is a true false format of response.
1:02:51
So an an item on the radiance may say I what would be an example I liked?
1:02:58
I only wore one color or did not, did not like a certain color.
1:03:04
Very much.
1:03:06
True or false?
1:03:07
Yes or no?
1:03:08
Well, yes.
1:03:10
I, I mostly wore black when I was in, in, in elementary school.
1:03:14
I just didn't care about picking up any colors or matching.
1:03:17
Didn't like it would be the comment that we got.
1:03:20
That true false is so much more quick to, to come up with the actual response.
1:03:28
Our, we time it and our clients go through a 65 item, non-autistic derived.
1:03:36
Likert scale based survey that the 150 item radiance is done in
1:03:45
approximately half the time because the answer comes so much more quickly.
1:03:52
And the relief that our clients express immediately following the radiance
1:04:00
versus struggling through the non.
1:04:03
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
1:04:03
Yeah, there's, I I think two of the things that comments that we
1:04:07
get that's so heartening to us is we often, very often get women who
1:04:11
say, oh my God, I feel so heard.
1:04:13
I feel so seen.
1:04:15
And we say, well, yes, of course you do, because this has been, this has been
1:04:18
created by, by input from autistic women.
1:04:21
And the other question we get is, doesn't everybody feel like this?
1:04:25
Doesn't everybody answer true to these?
1:04:27
And you know, of course in the, in the scope of our research, we
1:04:30
administer it to non-autistic people.
1:04:33
The answer is no.
1:04:34
No.
1:04:36
It's quite distinct.
1:04:38
The difference between an autistic response to a non-autistic response
1:04:43
and the true falses are weighted.
1:04:45
They're, they're weighted depending on the, the research that we did
1:04:48
based on the responses of non-autistic people and autistic people.
1:04:51
So it's a quite a complicated scoring system.
1:04:54
But it's just fascinating to us that these women think almost uniformly,
1:05:00
doesn't everybody think like this?
1:05:02
And it's a bit like that, that line from Temple Grand.
1:05:04
And when she was in that, in the film that was made about her, the
1:05:07
realization, the same realization.
1:05:10
Doesn't everybody think like me?
1:05:12
Dr. Marc Evanko:
1:05:12
No.
1:05:12
No, they don't.
1:05:13
She was 35 years old.
1:05:15
She said before she understood that not everybody thought this way.
1:05:22
Rupert Isaacson: Mm, yep.
1:05:22
Theory of mind.
1:05:23
Absolutely.
1:05:24
Yes.
1:05:24
Doesn't, doesn't come.
1:05:26
Naturally as one.
1:05:28
No.
1:05:28
No, absolutely.
1:05:29
Mm-hmm.
1:05:30
And I think that's often one of the things that is where people mistake lack.
1:05:35
You know, the mistake about lack of empathy I think is
1:05:39
actually more accurately perhaps impaired theory of mind.
1:05:43
But that doesn't mean lack of empathy.
1:05:46
That just means a different way of expressing empathy.
1:05:49
And yes, I remember, you know, back in our early days with autism, hearing
1:05:53
that kind of lack of empathy thing, thinking I have this very loving
1:05:56
little boy who yes, you know, but who would express it differently?
1:06:03
And definitely we have to help him with theory of mind.
1:06:07
But that's a cognitive thing.
1:06:09
That's not an emotional response.
1:06:13
The emotional response is right there, and it's bang, accurate.
1:06:16
You know, he's not a psychopath.
1:06:18
He's just expresses it differently.
1:06:20
And I've, I remember finding that.
1:06:23
Perplexing that.
1:06:25
And then I say, ah, is this because in fact, a lot of people doing the diagnoses
1:06:31
are in fact and perhaps a lot of these tools were in fact created by Asperger's
1:06:35
men who might have had difficulty themselves with some theory of mind and
1:06:43
might have had a somewhat rigid worldview.
1:06:49
I mean, I'm thinking about people like Lova, you know,
1:06:50
who, who invented, you know?
1:06:52
Oh, must must.
1:06:53
You know, I, I, I had a really interesting interaction years ago.
1:06:57
I was in Houston and we were doing some autism thing or other, and I was
1:07:01
talking about the not great experiences I'd had with a BA and somebody said I
1:07:09
was lo VA's housemate at university.
1:07:14
Oh, wow.
1:07:15
85-year-old guy.
1:07:16
Yeah.
1:07:16
And I was like, what are the odds?
1:07:19
I said, well, tell him.
1:07:20
He said, well, Rupert, he was obviously, obviously Asperger's, and he himself had,
1:07:27
you know, suffered a fair or bit, and then he'd grown into a very big man who
1:07:32
could use himself very forcefully and.
1:07:34
Was just very interested that after the war, this new topic
1:07:37
of autism, and then there was Asperger himself ever in Austria.
1:07:40
And he saw this as an opportunity, but he didn't care from children at all.
1:07:43
You know, it was just a way to make a mark within psychology.
1:07:46
But was he on the spectrum?
1:07:48
Probably.
1:07:48
You know, that's, that's what he said.
1:07:50
And But had he been somewhat brutalized Yes.
1:07:53
And therefore, was that how he was going to approach things?
1:07:57
Sure.
1:07:57
'cause he was a product at the time.
1:07:59
And well, the rest is what we know, but it's, it's interesting that so
1:08:04
of course, you know, being as you know, you know, being autistic doesn't
1:08:06
make one a saint or a sinner, it just makes one what one is autistic.
1:08:09
Yeah.
1:08:09
Yeah.
1:08:09
You know, and but it's, what's clear is that the inability to see nuance, I agree
1:08:17
with you, does seem to be weirdly built into the frameworks of the diagnostic
1:08:22
tools and of most of the therapies.
1:08:24
Mm-hmm.
1:08:25
And.
1:08:25
Given that we're dealing with humans who, as you say, you know, if you
1:08:29
give them, what, what number are you?
1:08:31
They'll say, well, on Tuesday it's one, but you know, by Thursday it has to
1:08:35
be six because of my menstrual cycle.
1:08:38
Or the fact that we've got, you know, a, a, a low atmospheric pressure or
1:08:43
I ended up in this situation with, you know, this authority figure,
1:08:47
which automatically presses my amygdala, so therefore I become a two.
1:08:50
You know, and then you could look at that and say, well, that's anybody, right?
1:08:54
So, yes.
1:08:54
'cause we're all human.
1:08:55
So if we're autistic human or non-autistic human, we're still human.
1:09:00
So I think if the, if, if the aliens were to come down and look at us and go, well,
1:09:04
okay, that one's got a diagnosis and that one doesn't, but, you know, they all
1:09:07
look kind of the same and they kind of, you know, get upset about this and, you
1:09:11
know, not upset about that more or less.
1:09:13
And, you know, it, it shows that they are more nuances and personality types,
1:09:18
I think than, but, but, but we can make too much or too little of them.
1:09:25
But I, but I agree with you.
1:09:26
When it's about actually trying to do a diagnostic tool, then that's
1:09:30
when one has to dive into the nuance and make it a huge thing.
1:09:34
Otherwise, how can it work?
1:09:36
Particularly if it's gonna work across the board.
1:09:37
The, the, the, the question that comes up for me when you're describing
1:09:41
this, of course, is I'm thinking, well, this of course would work
1:09:43
for presumably male autistic people as well as female autistic people.
1:09:48
So the radiance think surely that's something that could
1:09:51
work across the genders.
1:09:52
Or do you think it's specifically female?
1:09:56
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
1:09:56
Well, we started off by including males and in, in the, in the
1:10:01
first phase of the research.
1:10:02
And then we decided we're just gonna focus on females.
1:10:07
So yes, we have used the radiance to assess males, not, not very
1:10:12
many compared to the females.
1:10:14
And I think that as an instrument, yes, it could be used, conceivably be used
1:10:18
it's an adult assessment instrument.
1:10:21
But I, I can say that our focus and our interest is on autistic females.
1:10:27
Yeah.
1:10:27
And as they present.
1:10:29
So yeah.
1:10:30
Rupert Isaacson: Do you think though, perhaps, you know, if we look forward
1:10:32
20 years and let's say Radiance is, you know, it's a thing by then and it's a
1:10:37
diagnostic tool, do you think there's just a natural evolution that then there
1:10:41
would be a radiance for men as well?
1:10:45
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
1:10:45
I, I'd like to see that.
1:10:47
I think that that's probably an, an area that someone else could take on.
1:10:50
Mm-hmm.
1:10:51
You know, at our age, I think we're sort of coming to the end
1:10:54
of our research careers and this that contribute the radiance is
1:10:58
something as our contribution to it.
1:11:00
Mm-hmm.
1:11:01
Yeah, I, I certainly hope that there would be more research that's done that's
1:11:05
based on input from the people who are going to be served by the instrument.
1:11:11
Dr. Marc Evanko:
1:11:11
I, I'd like to throw in a point about this is, is that the
1:11:18
diagnosis of males has largely molded the stereotype.
1:11:25
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
1:11:27
Dr. Marc Evanko:
1:11:27
And so males are generally.
1:11:32
Much more easily diagnosed.
1:11:34
Not that they're more in number necessarily, it's just that they are
1:11:39
looked for much earlier in their lives.
1:11:45
One of the thoughts about that is because females actually are much more easily
1:11:53
mask and learn these nuances, don't know what to do about it, but know how to
1:12:01
mask themselves so that, as you mentioned earlier, they fly under the radar
1:12:06
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
1:12:08
Dr. Marc Evanko:
1:12:08
As until about middle school, seventh, sixth grade, when the social
1:12:16
pressures really start kicking in.
1:12:18
Mm mm-hmm.
1:12:19
And it becomes way more than that female, that girl can handle.
1:12:28
And she comes home.
1:12:29
After having been so smiley and so wonderful at school, and the teachers all
1:12:35
love her and she's extremely smart and comes home and melts down at four o'clock,
1:12:41
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
1:12:41
meltdown
1:12:42
Dr. Marc Evanko:
1:12:42
in the afternoon and can't communicate with her parents and
1:12:46
is throwing things and is having fits over, I can't do this anymore.
1:12:52
That wasn't me at
1:12:53
Rupert Isaacson: all.
1:12:53
Dr. Marc Evanko:
1:12:53
Yeah, no.
1:12:55
Mm-hmm.
1:12:56
Rupert Isaacson: So here's the question.
1:12:56
Yeah, I, I totally, I totally see the logic.
1:12:59
Here's a question, practical question.
1:13:00
So, let's say that same goal in a couple of years goes through a radiance, diag
1:13:07
assessment and gets the diagnosis.
1:13:15
What could, particularly within the American system, what could change?
1:13:23
For her because of that, that would be to her advantage.
1:13:28
Dr. Marc Evanko:
1:13:28
We can testimonials, we, we, we've actually got unsolicited emails back from
1:13:33
our clients, not just at, at the age that you're talking about, but across ages.
1:13:39
Saying, I can't believe how it's changed my,
1:13:43
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
1:13:43
it's changed everything,
1:13:44
Dr. Marc Evanko:
1:13:44
perception of myself and everything around me.
1:13:48
And I am, I am so able to now navigate simply because someone
1:13:57
has heard me the imposter syndrome.
1:14:00
Am I or am I not autistic?
1:14:05
I'm acting this way.
1:14:07
Well, maybe I am a borderline personality.
1:14:11
I've been told that it doesn't, I've looked it up, it doesn't fit well, but.
1:14:18
And then I started, somebody told me, a counselor told me I may be autistic.
1:14:21
So I did my deep dive in autism.
1:14:24
And by gosh, it, that really seems to fix,
1:14:27
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
1:14:27
explain so much.
1:14:28
Dr. Marc Evanko:
1:14:28
And now I can ask for just incandescent light in, you know, I, I know, I know why
1:14:38
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
1:14:38
flu restin like bothers me so much.
1:14:39
I know why I can't spontaneously contribute to these meetings at work.
1:14:44
I know why I prefer to send email than the phone, and I'm okay.
1:14:49
I, I'm okay.
1:14:50
Somebody asked me that question actually.
1:14:52
They once, they said, well, what'd you bother getting a diagnosis for?
1:14:55
You're not gonna be able to access services.
1:14:57
It's not gonna change anything.
1:14:59
You know, you're 49 or whatever it is.
1:15:02
Why'd you do it?
1:15:03
What difference does it make?
1:15:04
And I thought about this question and I said it changed everything.
1:15:09
It changed everything
1:15:11
Rupert Isaacson: that I can absolutely see.
1:15:12
Yeah, no, that, that makes perfect sense to me.
1:15:14
Self-advocacy effectively.
1:15:16
And definitely within our programs, self-advocacy is always
1:15:20
kind of what we're aiming for.
1:15:22
That somebody can say, okay, look, this is me.
1:15:25
This is what I'm gonna need.
1:15:27
But in return, if you can accommodate me here with these environmental
1:15:30
things, these sensory things, et cetera,
1:15:32
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
1:15:32
I can my best, well, not up my best.
1:15:33
Well, not so much self-advocacy as it as it was self-understanding
1:15:38
for the first time in my life.
1:15:40
Mm-hmm.
1:15:40
I could look at myself and say, there's nothing wrong with you
1:15:45
after being told my entire life.
1:15:47
Mm-hmm.
1:15:47
There's something wrong with you.
1:15:49
You don't fit in.
1:15:50
You are the constant.
1:15:51
You are the one who's got the broken relationships.
1:15:53
You are the one who can't keep a job.
1:15:54
You are the one who can't stay at school.
1:15:56
You are a problem.
1:15:57
For the first time, I said to myself, I'm not a problem.
1:16:01
I'm autistic.
1:16:02
I think differently.
1:16:04
It was right.
1:16:04
No life changing.
1:16:05
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.
1:16:06
Get that.
1:16:07
If you're a horse nerd, and if you're on this podcast, I'm guessing you are, then
1:16:12
you've probably also always wondered a little bit about the old master system.
1:16:18
of dressage training.
1:16:19
If you go and check out our Helios Harmony program, we outline there step by step
1:16:28
exactly how to train your horse from the ground to become the dressage horse
1:16:34
of your dreams in a way that absolutely serves the physical, mental and emotional
1:16:40
well being of the horse and the rider.
1:16:43
Intrigued?
1:16:44
Like to know more?
1:16:46
Go to our website, Helios Harmony.
1:16:50
Check out the free introduction course.
1:16:53
Take it from there.
1:16:54
I'm thinking about the girl that you've just described, who, who's
1:16:57
melting down when she gets home from school because school is school.
1:17:01
It's one of the reasons, for example, why we have this program called Movement
1:17:04
Method, which was originally a homeschool program for my son, which is now to my
1:17:09
astonishment, being taken on in schools.
1:17:12
But it was specifically trying to address this let's say that girl that
1:17:18
you just described, she's getting home, she's melting down, so she,
1:17:21
the, the, the relationship with the parents is now compromised, so
1:17:24
that means the home environment is compromised and so on and so on.
1:17:29
She goes through the assessment, she gets the diagnosis, does do things
1:17:37
improve for her because then when she gets home, her parents know.
1:17:43
She needs space.
1:17:44
She needs time to recharge and recover, and therefore the demands that we can
1:17:52
make need to be rethought because she's exhausted by what she's had to the
1:18:00
energy she's had to expend dah, dah, dah.
1:18:03
So therefore things go better at home.
1:18:04
So therefore, you know, I I Is that where or, and she can then go to teachers and
1:18:08
say, or parents go to teachers and say, look, this is what's going on with her.
1:18:12
Can we make certain sensory accommodations?
1:18:16
Can we this, can we that?
1:18:17
And then, yeah.
1:18:20
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
1:18:20
How does it better
1:18:21
Rupert Isaacson: get better for her?
1:18:22
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
1:18:22
Well, it would be better.
1:18:24
More education is needed.
1:18:26
There is a huge amount of misinformation about autism in females.
1:18:29
The program that I have just gone through, the three year program.
1:18:34
Did not mention autism in females once it was mentioned in children,
1:18:39
and the only time it was mentioned in any of the textbooks or discussions
1:18:43
that I had in an adult was in a male with intellectual disability.
1:18:47
So a huge gap.
1:18:49
I think the type of programs that you are offering would go a long
1:18:52
way for that hypothetical girl.
1:18:55
She would not take the radiance.
1:18:57
The radiance is designed for adult women.
1:19:00
Rupert Isaacson: Got it.
1:19:00
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
1:19:00
Now there could be a researcher out there who wants to take the work we've done on
1:19:05
the radiance and create one for girls.
1:19:09
We toyed with the idea.
1:19:10
We were gonna call it the cognac.
1:19:12
We might do it.
1:19:13
I don't know.
1:19:14
All of our research has been self-funded or funded by participants.
1:19:19
We do not get any government grants.
1:19:21
We have not had institutional grants.
1:19:23
No one is much interested in funding research into autistic women,
1:19:28
particularly a, a, a program that is designed to support and enhance them.
1:19:33
Cure, that's another thing.
1:19:35
And now we have RFK who's going down that rabbit hole as well.
1:19:39
So yeah, I think there is a huge opportunity here for the work that you
1:19:44
are doing, for the work that we are doing for other autistic researchers
1:19:49
to run with this and really start to make some inroads into an area
1:19:54
that has been woefully ignored.
1:19:57
Hmm.
1:19:59
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:20:00
Yeah.
1:20:00
I mean, and it's so interesting, isn't it?
1:20:02
I'm, I'm thinking to someone I know who has this ex exact story.
1:20:06
She's now 30 and she is in fact now a researcher in the field.
1:20:10
She had the good fortune to have a pony.
1:20:12
Mm-hmm.
1:20:14
And the pony took up the slack.
1:20:17
But not everybody, of course, is in that position.
1:20:20
And I guess it's just listening to you speak and, and thinking about.
1:20:24
How so many, I think adolescent girls have this experience of being the one
1:20:33
who is bringing emotional upheaval into a family environment, but may or may
1:20:44
not have much choice in that matter.
1:20:47
And therefore, if this were better understood, particularly when it
1:20:53
hits that middle school pain point.
1:20:55
Yes.
1:20:55
You know, how much better could things be?
1:20:57
And I suspect they could be much better.
1:21:00
So I'm also, it's natural for me to imagine in my journalistic
1:21:05
mind, okay, the radiance goes out there and it gets a momentum.
1:21:09
And then it would seem to me almost inevitable that a cohort of
1:21:15
probably female researchers, but possibly also male, might go listen.
1:21:20
Maybe we need this actually much earlier so that we're not picking
1:21:24
up people who are so traumatized by, you know, lives gone wrong that
1:21:30
they have to kind of rethink and rebuild and reframe in middle age.
1:21:36
Do we need to, does it need, does that need to happen?
1:21:38
No, it doesn't.
1:21:38
If we can think more intelligently about this and this is, this
1:21:43
is the, now the other problem.
1:21:44
Remember we started with tribe.
1:21:46
One of things that's also very difficult, and this is a point I'm making often
1:21:49
when I'm working with young autistic adults, is it, while it is true that
1:21:54
neurotypicals must and should meet you more than halfway, you have to meet
1:22:00
them halfway too, because Absolutely.
1:22:01
That's just the world we're in, you know?
1:22:03
And.
1:22:05
Whether that's a should or whether that's a shouldn't, it's and is and mm-hmm.
1:22:09
That's a set of survival skills.
1:22:11
So it's like, you know, for example, I have to speak other languages.
1:22:14
I live in Germany, I have to speak German, I lived in France, I had to speak French.
1:22:18
I'll be going to live in Spain soon.
1:22:19
I have to learn Spanish.
1:22:20
I just will have to, whether I wanted to or not is completely irrelevant.
1:22:24
If I want to be able to get around in America, I have to get a driving license.
1:22:28
Do I wanna drive?
1:22:28
Do I not wanna drive irrelevant?
1:22:30
Gotta have one or, it's very difficult.
1:22:32
But it doesn't mean that I stop being me.
1:22:35
I'm just me with a set of skills.
1:22:38
So, but what's so hard for parents?
1:22:44
I think, and as you say, in families where there is autism, one of
1:22:49
the parents can also be autistic, which can add, you know, variables.
1:22:55
They often have no support.
1:22:59
Right.
1:22:59
Without tribe, it's almost, you know, and I, it's almost impossible.
1:23:04
And I, I had this good fortune to spend all this time with indigenous
1:23:10
people where there is a lot of support.
1:23:13
No one is left unsupported.
1:23:15
Everyone in the community regards anyone else's struggle as something that everyone
1:23:19
else has a partial responsibility for.
1:23:22
Because if one person fails, the whole thing can fold and
1:23:24
everyone gets eaten by hyenas.
1:23:26
That's no good.
1:23:27
So we step in and people might grumble about it, but people
1:23:31
step in and help automatically.
1:23:33
We know that that's just not how things are set up, you know?
1:23:35
So I'm just thinking back to your story, Rebecca, you know, I mean,
1:23:38
your mom, whatever was going on with her was also isolated and alone.
1:23:42
Probably didn't have the skills to cope, you know, might have had some
1:23:46
sort of diagnosis going on herself of something, or rather, who knows?
1:23:49
Had plenty of, so couldn't cope folded.
1:23:53
Off made the wrong decision, but there was no granny, there were no aunts.
1:24:00
There was no greater sisterhood or council of elders or to Yeah, and
1:24:10
Dr. Marc Evanko:
1:24:10
well in, I'm wondering if that's the greater Yeah, go ahead.
1:24:14
The greater society here in modern society in the United States at least, has largely
1:24:23
evolved into a situation like that.
1:24:26
There are pockets within, within this culture where that
1:24:32
is still strongly supported.
1:24:34
That tribe mentality is still but very few.
1:24:37
Yeah, very few.
1:24:39
And so everyone almost has that isolation because there is not that support.
1:24:49
There are the, there are some.
1:24:51
Church communities that maybe do exactly what you were talking about
1:24:56
where everybody bands together and, and maybe there's some grumbling, there are
1:25:00
the elders, there are these somebody who is able to cause that group of
1:25:09
people to be more cohesive and, and more supportive of any one of them.
1:25:17
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
1:25:17
It's cultural too.
1:25:17
You talked about the Kal Kalari, the Australian aboriginal culture.
1:25:21
Yeah.
1:25:21
Dr. Marc Evanko:
1:25:21
Same thing
1:25:22
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
1:25:22
is very, very much about communal responsibility for every member.
1:25:27
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.
1:25:28
Absolutely.
1:25:29
And you know, in, in the 25 years or so, I was living in the USA and particularly
1:25:32
once we got into this work, I noticed that often when we're in Texas, so a a certain
1:25:38
proportion of our, you're in New Mexico of our clientele was always Hispanic.
1:25:42
And they often had better outcomes.
1:25:44
Because there was just more support, there was more familial support.
1:25:48
Yep.
1:25:49
Among the white middle class, very little.
1:25:52
And where that might have not been true 50 years ago, there'd been more family farms
1:25:56
that had been more family businesses.
1:25:57
It just was not the case anymore.
1:25:59
And I, I, when we first started running what we call play dates, we never called
1:26:04
it therapy 'cause we're not therapists.
1:26:06
And by the way, I never even met a kid that wanted therapy.
1:26:08
You know, oh, I'd like some therapy today, my, you know, no, no.
1:26:13
They, they might wanna play or go ride their pony or doesn't mean that
1:26:16
it can't be therapeutic, but yeah.
1:26:18
So we've always called it play dates, you know, and, but I, what, what I noticed
1:26:21
was, of course, I needed the siblings there because I didn't know your kid.
1:26:25
Right.
1:26:25
Your kid doesn't trust me, doesn't know me.
1:26:28
Coming in with an overactive amygdala full of fear.
1:26:31
So if I have the brother and the sister there, they'll give me all sorts of intel.
1:26:35
Like, don't do this, make sure you do that.
1:26:37
She hates this kind of sound or smell.
1:26:40
She loves that, you know, not that dog but that dog, you know, blah, blah, blah.
1:26:44
When it makes the funny noise, it means this, this is amazing.
1:26:47
I need all this into, you know, so it might take me three, four years of
1:26:50
building relationship before I could, you know, learn that about somebody.
1:26:54
So I needed to make things attractive for the siblings.
1:26:57
So, of course, let's say there was a sister generally well riding
1:27:02
lessons, you know, happening for free.
1:27:03
You know, that was generally pretty good.
1:27:05
Maybe the boys didn't care from horses, but he loved soccer
1:27:08
or something, or martial arts.
1:27:10
And I had friends who were semi-pro soccer coaches.
1:27:13
I'd ring that guy up and say, I need you on Tuesday at this play date.
1:27:17
And so then the brother would find that he was getting all this
1:27:21
amazing soccer coaching because.
1:27:24
Siblings autism, not in spite of.
1:27:26
And it changed the dynamic within the family.
1:27:29
And then the parents were coming and suddenly saying, oh my gosh, all
1:27:33
of our kids' needs are being met.
1:27:35
We can actually have time to reach out to each other and swap information.
1:27:39
Because the best information you always get is from other parents.
1:27:42
What worked, what didn't work?
1:27:44
And we realized we'd stumbled into Tribe and I was doing it partly 'cause
1:27:49
I was so isolated from my tribe.
1:27:51
And so I wanted kind of a social life for my kid.
1:27:53
I kind of wanted a bit of a social life for me.
1:27:55
And I was also curious to see if what we were doing would work with other kids.
1:28:00
So I I, I wonder if that's also what you found that you are doing at Wilder Wood.
1:28:04
Do you feel that you've actually also created Tribe there and that
1:28:09
through these protocols that you're doing, you're helping to create wider
1:28:13
tribes, you know, and that wider supports out now away from Wilder Wood.
1:28:19
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
1:28:19
Yeah, absolutely.
1:28:20
And it was almost by default particularly with our research that we've created,
1:28:24
this community of autistic women who are connected now through the Radiance and the
1:28:29
letters and emails that we get outlining the difference that this has made.
1:28:37
We got one last week from someone that we diagnosed two years ago, and you
1:28:42
know, she was saying since getting the diagnosis, she's found others like her and
1:28:46
she's been able to establish an interest.
1:28:48
And she's halfway through a baccalaureate program in psychology and she wants
1:28:52
to go out now and be trained as a therapist to help other autistic women.
1:28:57
So she's found that connection and the thread started with finding
1:29:02
this community or this tribe.
1:29:05
So
1:29:06
Rupert Isaacson: do, do you have plans to set up some sort of, I mean, training
1:29:11
where people can learn to do what you do and then set up effectively Wilder Woods?
1:29:16
All over the place.
1:29:17
Not dissimilar to what we did with horse boy.
1:29:19
There are horse boy places around.
1:29:21
That's something that could happen.
1:29:22
'cause I think there's a need for what you're talking about
1:29:25
quite a, quite strongly.
1:29:26
We
1:29:26
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
1:29:26
certainly, well, I appreciate you saying that.
1:29:29
I think I look at the things that people like you do Rupert,
1:29:33
and I'm just in awe of you.
1:29:35
I think what you do is amazing.
1:29:37
I think you're an in incredible inspiration and what you've done
1:29:41
for your son and with your son and by extension, the autistic and
1:29:45
the A DHD community is incredible.
1:29:49
Rupert Isaacson: I agree.
1:29:50
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
1:29:50
I don't know that I have the energy or the drive to do that.
1:29:57
I think that getting the radiance out there is important.
1:30:01
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
1:30:01
I think
1:30:01
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
1:30:01
training clinicians in how to use it is important.
1:30:05
But I think that offering what I do here and having the opportunity to
1:30:11
talk with other like-minded people.
1:30:14
Is also very important, but multiple Wilder Woods, I'm not sure.
1:30:20
I don't think so.
1:30:20
Well, I wonder if that's something that will happen indirectly.
1:30:22
Rupert Isaacson: It doesn't.
1:30:22
I mean, it doesn't have to happen through like a certification program or something.
1:30:25
But I, I just wonder if that, because surely, you know, when you're going
1:30:29
out there and talking to other women with your condition, you are
1:30:33
probably at some point saying to them, Hey, listen, you need support.
1:30:37
And here are some tips for how to find it, right?
1:30:40
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
1:30:40
Yeah, absolutely.
1:30:41
And I really like the idea of other autistic people going out and creating
1:30:48
other elements or other parts or other components that they've taken from
1:30:52
it, rather than, you know, me and Mark being sort of the, the ones doing it.
1:30:57
I like the idea of it spreading through the community.
1:31:00
Right.
1:31:00
And the community taking responsibility for it.
1:31:04
You know, rather than the more individualistic, oh, this is Mark's
1:31:08
and my program and, you know, we're going to, you know, teach others.
1:31:11
No.
1:31:11
Take what, what you've learned from us.
1:31:14
Reject what you don't like and go out and do something in your part of the community
1:31:19
so we can create and spread this.
1:31:22
Dr. Marc Evanko:
1:31:22
Yeah.
1:31:22
This is an interesting thing that we've also experienced is people,
1:31:27
for instance, we, we put on a a community event in Albuquerque.
1:31:32
It was called Fest last year.
1:31:35
And I saw some stuff on it on your website.
1:31:37
Yeah, it looked great.
1:31:38
Rupert Isaacson: Oh yeah.
1:31:39
Dr. Marc Evanko:
1:31:39
It was, it was great.
1:31:40
And there were some of the, some of the people who made comments on a
1:31:45
Facebook or something like that, that were saying, well, you could have
1:31:48
done this and you could have done that, and why didn't you do this?
1:31:53
Our response to each other in our kitchen or in the was, why don't you do it?
1:32:00
We did this.
1:32:02
You go ahead and do that.
1:32:05
That's your idea.
1:32:06
Go for it.
1:32:07
Because what ends up happening in a lot of these instances is people like you,
1:32:14
Rupert, people like Rebecca are amazing people and are looked at for that drive.
1:32:28
It is, to some degree very, very inspiring to others who somehow don't have the
1:32:39
same intellectual, mental capacities.
1:32:47
Because there is a spectrum of that within humanity and those who are
1:32:55
part of the tribe and yet do not have certain attributes that allow
1:33:06
them to do those things with facility
1:33:16
end up dropping the ball.
1:33:17
It's, it's sort of like if there was in, in religions there is the
1:33:23
guy who is the Buddha who is the enlightened one, or the Christ who is
1:33:28
the enlightened one, and then there's the people who were immediately
1:33:33
around that person and they sort of get it, but not like that person did.
1:33:43
And after about two or three iterations down the road, it becomes like the
1:33:50
whisper game where we're whispering a sentence to someone and that
1:33:56
sentence goes around the circle.
1:33:58
It's not the same sentence by the time it gets back, because
1:34:01
you know what you're doing.
1:34:04
Rebecca knows what she's doing, and you do it very, very well.
1:34:12
And then it slightly gets diluted or changed a little bit and then
1:34:18
it gets changed a little bit more.
1:34:21
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, no, I agree.
1:34:22
That's an organic process, right?
1:34:23
And I, I think, yeah.
1:34:25
You know, this used to keep us up at night.
1:34:27
Years ago.
1:34:28
And then we realized well hold on.
1:34:30
In that case, if this is, if this is keeping us up at night, then
1:34:33
that means we need to simplify what, what, what does what, what's
1:34:36
the simplification of what we do?
1:34:39
Because there's all these different nuances, right?
1:34:41
And we realized that there's just this one thing.
1:34:44
If you're doing it, you'll probably be successful and you could take any of the
1:34:48
tools that we offer and run with them.
1:34:51
And that's why like our programs, they're just, they're just toolkits.
1:34:54
They're just like saying, here's a bunch of tools.
1:34:57
You're probably already doing something pretty awesome.
1:34:59
'cause a lot of people that we train are, you know, already
1:35:01
doing good things, right?
1:35:03
Don't change what you're doing.
1:35:05
Here are just some tools that you might find useful.
1:35:07
You know, the, the one, so there's one thing that allows those tools
1:35:11
to be used, and that's the ethic.
1:35:14
It starts with the autistic person.
1:35:15
It starts with Temple Grandin.
1:35:17
And the advice I got, which we never deviated from, which is follow the child.
1:35:23
Yeah.
1:35:23
That's great.
1:35:24
And so as long as you're doing that.
1:35:25
You know what I mean?
1:35:27
Yeah.
1:35:29
Because, because then it, because then it's not about horses.
1:35:31
If the kid's not into horses, but he's into balloons and bicycles and
1:35:34
Minecraft, I'm all about balloons and bicycles and Minecraft, you know?
1:35:37
Yeah.
1:35:37
There you go.
1:35:38
Then the horse is my therapy so that I can put up balloons and bicycles
1:35:42
and Minecraft, which I don't find interesting, but I can, I can mask and,
1:35:46
you know, pretend to find it interesting to, 'cause I'm interested in that kid.
1:35:49
But then the horse is actually helping me more than the horse is
1:35:52
helping, but it's Follow the child.
1:35:53
Follow the child, follow the child, and it, it, it sounds like
1:35:55
basically that's what a lot of the radiance is coming down to, which is
1:36:00
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
1:36:00
Yes.
1:36:00
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
1:36:02
Absolutely follow, yes, follow the artistic autistic
1:36:05
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
1:36:05
woman.
1:36:05
Right.
1:36:06
Right.
1:36:07
Rupert Isaacson: And then if there is a bit of a process of, as you said,
1:36:10
Chinese whispers down down the line, if, if, if, if you build that in to re
1:36:15
the radiance and it seems that you are.
1:36:18
Then it just becomes a great toolkit that any anyone can use.
1:36:21
And yeah, sure, some people might use it better than others, but, but at
1:36:24
least it's there and at least it's an improvement on the status quo.
1:36:28
You know, and, and that, and you know, you, you've gotta follow yourself as well
1:36:31
Rebecca, so, you know, you always thinking back to yourself as that 15-year-old
1:36:36
girl, would this, could this have improved things if it had been around back then?
1:36:41
The answer is for sure.
1:36:41
Oh God.
1:36:42
Oh, oh God, yes.
1:36:44
Oh God, yes.
1:36:46
You know?
1:36:47
Yeah.
1:36:48
And it's been good for the world that you went through that story because you've
1:36:51
done something really good with it.
1:36:52
But you know, as well as I do that not every girl has the, has
1:36:55
the same outcome that you had.
1:36:57
And we, we don't want every girl to have to go through that.
1:37:01
No.
1:37:02
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
1:37:02
Right?
1:37:02
Rupert Isaacson: No.
1:37:03
So I massively appreciate what you're doing.
1:37:07
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
1:37:07
Likewise, we're pretty much in awe of you and what you continue to accomplish
1:37:12
and have accomplished, and we're just quite, well, I can't speak for Mark,
1:37:16
but I was quite amazed that why does Rupert Isaacson want to talk to me?
1:37:23
We all in
1:37:24
Rupert Isaacson: this field.
1:37:25
And he, you know, 'cause there was a time, you know this, Rebecca, I mean, 10
1:37:29
years ago we were all getting laughed at and you were just playing with ponies.
1:37:33
And my answer to that was, and what's wrong with that?
1:37:37
But then I realized, yeah, then maybe I better go talk to some neuroscientists and
1:37:41
find out actually why that's a good thing.
1:37:43
So that when people said that to me, I could say, okay, so here's
1:37:46
what's going on in the brain when you do this and here's what's going
1:37:48
on in the body and you do this.
1:37:49
And then they go, oh, oh, oh.
1:37:50
And then I could say, so where did you get your degree in neuroscience?
1:37:54
So you, you clearly, you know, and then that changed the thing completely when
1:37:58
they got on board, but we had to be laughed at for years before we got there.
1:38:02
So, no, why do I want to talk to you?
1:38:03
Because you're improving the field guys, and you are, you
1:38:07
are, you're getting the job done.
1:38:10
And I respect that.
1:38:11
And, and I want to, and I want to big you up and I want people to know
1:38:15
about you because we're all gonna be dead someday, and this has to go on.
1:38:24
We can't, we can't be going back to where things were 20, 25 years ago.
1:38:29
No.
1:38:30
Mm-hmm.
1:38:31
So the fact that you guys are advancing the field in this thoughtful way and
1:38:37
devoting your lives and your resources to this is incredibly important.
1:38:42
Of course, I want to talk to you.
1:38:44
Of course.
1:38:44
I Well, thank you.
1:38:46
To know about it's, yeah.
1:38:50
Yeah.
1:38:50
It goes without saying.
1:38:52
By the way, there's an unsung hero in all our programs.
1:38:55
And that is Ileana Lawrence who is my wife, and who is the person who's
1:39:00
responsible for the systematization of these things so that they can be
1:39:05
really taught and really replicated.
1:39:08
And she's super modest and she won't ever come on a podcast and she won't,
1:39:12
you know, but were it not for her?
1:39:13
No, this wouldn't be happening.
1:39:15
So it's not all me by any stretch of the imagination.
1:39:18
I happened to, if I had one good idea, I had one good idea.
1:39:21
And that was, I went to talk to Temple Grandin.
1:39:23
And then my second good idea was I said, yeah, I'm gonna follow that advice.
1:39:27
But I can't say that was through any natural talent.
1:39:31
That was just, that was just common sense.
1:39:32
It's like there's someone who, who has the knowledge go to that person, try it.
1:39:38
Does it work?
1:39:39
Oh, it works.
1:39:40
Keep doing it.
1:39:42
And I think, yeah, we are, we're all in this boat.
1:39:46
We had a breakthrough last year with our programs in Ireland where there's an
1:39:51
amazing man who you need to be aware of called David Doyle, who's an autism dad,
1:39:56
who started amazing work all over Ireland and based around the situation he found
1:40:03
himself in with his daughter 30 years ago.
1:40:07
And he proved at the place that he got going called Li Skint in County Limerick.
1:40:13
Look it up, Liz Kennet.
1:40:15
I'll send you a, a link.
1:40:17
That using movement method with autistic adults who were violent and
1:40:22
who often needed up to four minders, you know, by the time a someone's six
1:40:28
foot four and 250 pounds, and is so frustrated and so boiling over with.
1:40:37
30 years sensory stuff.
1:40:39
And, you know, you know, the, the score that anyway, that with, with
1:40:42
this over five years, they could bring that number of minders down to one.
1:40:45
And that of course saved the government over a million euros per person.
1:40:49
Wow.
1:40:50
And after five years of collecting the data, finally the Minister of Health
1:40:54
and Disability in Ireland, it's amazing they have a minister of disability.
1:40:57
Yeah, really it's incredible, eh when, you know what, the data's good
1:41:02
and they got behind it, this was fif 20, almost 20, between 15 and 20
1:41:08
years into the work we were doing.
1:41:09
And then that begins to have a knock on effect within the eu, eu, which then has
1:41:14
a knock on effect back to the uk, which then has a knock on effect back to the us.
1:41:18
'cause as you know, you're never an authority in your own backyard.
1:41:23
You know, your stuff will be adopted in Germany.
1:41:26
You're right across the usa.
1:41:28
It's just how it goes.
1:41:29
Oh yeah.
1:41:30
Yeah.
1:41:30
And that's the other reason why we all need to be talking and that's why
1:41:33
we need podcasts like this, because we need to be aware of each other.
1:41:36
Because I'm going to be talking.
1:41:38
So we have what's so for listeners, you're gonna be listening to this whenever,
1:41:42
but this happens to be July of 2025.
1:41:45
So in August of 2025, we'll be having what we call our Horse Boy Tribe Day.
1:41:49
We should really call it tribe Days 'cause it's over a long weekend and
1:41:53
we get together internationally.
1:41:55
And this year it's in one of our places in Ireland, a place called Stewart's Care.
1:41:59
Kil Coon, just outside of Dublin.
1:42:01
Well, I'm gonna be talking about your, and I'm gonna be saying go
1:42:05
check that out, because that's what we all rely on each other to do.
1:42:09
We're like, how?
1:42:10
I wouldn't know this.
1:42:10
I didn't found out about you because of our mutual friend.
1:42:13
Lisa Deon.
1:42:14
Lisa.
1:42:14
Lisa.
1:42:15
Dr. Marc Evanko:
1:42:15
Yeah.
1:42:16
Rupert Isaacson: So listeners, if you haven't heard my podcast with
1:42:19
Elisa Deon, who does the Echos Film Festival, so over on my live free, ride
1:42:22
free podcast, go and check her out.
1:42:24
She's an amazing human being with a heart about as big as Oh yeah.
1:42:30
Chicago, where she comes from, and she turned me onto your back
1:42:34
in April, said, Rupert, you've gotta check these people out.
1:42:37
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
1:42:37
Oh, wow.
1:42:38
Yeah.
1:42:38
And
1:42:38
Rupert Isaacson: if Lisa tells me, I take her word for it, you know, so I
1:42:41
looked you all up and I went, oh yeah, no, they're, they're the real deal.
1:42:43
They're doing it.
1:42:44
But without her turning me onto you, I wouldn't have known,
1:42:48
you know, we're been too much,
1:42:51
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
1:42:51
too much
1:42:51
Rupert Isaacson: information out there.
1:42:52
We're
1:42:53
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
1:42:53
back, back to tribe again and tribal communication.
1:42:55
That's
1:42:55
Rupert Isaacson: right.
1:42:57
So, back to putting stuff out in the world, you've also written a book.
1:43:00
Tell us about the book.
1:43:01
Yes.
1:43:03
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
1:43:03
Oh, it's, so, it was, I wrote it at the urging of Mark because my, my attitude
1:43:08
was, well, who wants to know about me?
1:43:10
Nobody's interested in me.
1:43:11
Rupert Isaacson: That was still, that's still your attitude.
1:43:13
That's just my attitude.
1:43:13
Well, the thing is where you're right about that honestly, is
1:43:16
they're not interested in you.
1:43:17
They're interested in your story.
1:43:20
When people read the horse, boy, they're not interested in me.
1:43:22
They're interested in the story.
1:43:23
So you are right in a way, but you do have a very good story.
1:43:26
So tell us the story.
1:43:28
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
1:43:28
Well, it's just basically what I, what I went over earlier today.
1:43:30
It's just the story of what happened to me and that I was basically abandoned.
1:43:35
Gave up on, I had a grade nine education or autistic, no family,
1:43:40
no support, no money, no nothing.
1:43:43
And I kind of, worked my way through it and, you know, ended up going
1:43:47
back to school and getting now four degrees and, and doing what I do.
1:43:51
And it was the, basically that was the story and interwoven
1:43:55
through that, how horses.
1:43:57
And my love of horses and my ability to connect with horses
1:44:03
probably saved me because it was the one constant in my life.
1:44:09
If I didn't have a horse, I was reading about them.
1:44:12
I was thinking about them.
1:44:13
I was, I had them in my heart.
1:44:16
They have been a constant throughout my life, and I'm so incredibly
1:44:21
grateful to this guy beside me for opening up the opportunity where
1:44:25
I can now and have for the past 12 years, lived again with horses.
1:44:30
Dr. Marc Evanko:
1:44:30
This, well, one other thing that I wanna put out four in the context of,
1:44:37
of the, the book, that was an unspoken thing, but something that Rebecca
1:44:42
and I have both talked about is this concept of learned helplessness.
1:44:50
An ironic concept that people.
1:44:57
Whether autistic or not, who have certain things that are accommodated for them,
1:45:07
actually don't learn as well how to do those things because it's easier for them.
1:45:15
Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.
1:45:16
Dr. Marc Evanko:
1:45:16
Rather than going through what Rebecca had to go through, because that was her life.
1:45:22
She did not learn helplessness.
1:45:27
She had to find ways.
1:45:30
Her executive function is very poor, but she had to compensate by having
1:45:38
three different memory devices for moleskin, her diary and a second set
1:45:45
of on the computer of calendaring.
1:45:49
That, that she.
1:45:51
Invented for herself out of necessity if she hadn't learned and
1:46:00
taught herself to do that because there was no one else around.
1:46:06
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
1:46:06
Hmm.
1:46:06
Dr. Marc Evanko:
1:46:06
She would not be here with me today.
1:46:11
And I reinforce this fairly often, this concept of learned helplessness
1:46:18
is intermingling with societies that first world societies that so easy to
1:46:31
get just about anything you desire.
1:46:36
Rupert Isaacson: Things Yes.
1:46:37
I mean that you desire, I mean it's, it's rendering neurotypicals,
1:46:39
helpless that is, that is accurate.
1:46:42
The, the, that is accurate.
1:46:44
The, the assumption that everything.
1:46:46
Is gonna be at your fingertips all the time.
1:46:48
Means that yeah.
1:46:49
Don't
1:46:49
Dr. Marc Evanko:
1:46:49
work.
1:46:50
And you going, yeah, you going to the Kalahari or me going out backpacking
1:46:55
in the, in the mountains of New Mexico or Colorado and getting lost sometimes
1:47:01
on purpose so that I'm challenged.
1:47:08
And you were challenged because the hyenas are out there.
1:47:12
Oh yeah, they are.
1:47:14
And, and that's the metaphor for all of it.
1:47:18
In the first world, the hyenas are the bankers and the, and the businessmen.
1:47:25
And, and they are the ones who are there waiting.
1:47:33
Rupert Isaacson: Get this to take in the hunter gatherer context, which is
1:47:37
the authentic human context, right?
1:47:40
Dr. Marc Evanko:
1:47:40
Mm-hmm.
1:47:41
Rupert Isaacson: The predator is never.
1:47:45
I repeat Never your fellow human.
1:47:49
Hmm.
1:47:49
They don't kill each other.
1:47:52
They don't pray upon each other in those ways.
1:47:54
If that comes in after they're displaced, then society breaks down and then
1:47:59
they do those things to each other.
1:48:01
Dr. Marc Evanko:
1:48:01
Hmm.
1:48:01
But
1:48:02
Rupert Isaacson: when things are going authentically, it's actually, it's
1:48:06
so, human culture is actually in its authentic sense, a culture of conflict.
1:48:10
Resolution not, yes.
1:48:13
Of conflict creation.
1:48:14
Now we live in a society where the only predator is our fellow human.
1:48:21
And that bens us nuts.
1:48:23
Because it is nuts.
1:48:25
And that means that even if you're a neurotypical, it's no holy grail.
1:48:28
You're, you, you're, you're going mad with absolutely that
1:48:31
kind of psychological pain.
1:48:34
'cause you're living in the world that's as it should not be.
1:48:37
And a part of your subconscious is like, this is wrong.
1:48:42
And I think everybody has that voice screaming all the time,
1:48:46
but you might not even know why, because you're so far removed.
1:48:48
It's not your fault.
1:48:50
This learned helplessness thing is so interesting because one
1:48:52
does need to be taught skills.
1:48:55
And it's so interesting in those hunter gatherer context, kids
1:48:58
are given absolutely, absolutely unconditional, unconditional love.
1:49:02
They're always carried on the body.
1:49:04
You're not gonna put 'em down where there's snakes and scorpions.
1:49:06
They're always between two adults at night because if you put them on
1:49:11
the other side of a high highness will come in and they will take
1:49:14
your kid and you will not wake up.
1:49:16
They know how to do that.
1:49:17
So you wouldn't dream of putting them even half a meter away from you.
1:49:21
They'll take your boots if you take your boots off, you know, and it's
1:49:25
also below freezing at night, so you're gonna have the child here and then it
1:49:28
will graduate to a pack of siblings and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
1:49:31
But what's so weird with that level of support is that when they reach about 16.
1:49:38
They can take a spear, go into the bush, dodge all the dangerous stuff,
1:49:44
come back with a meal for everybody.
1:49:46
Two years after that they can go down to Johannesburg in the city and get a job in
1:49:53
the mines, learn to speak eight languages, suddenly learn to be a mechanic.
1:49:57
'cause they've just kind of looked at their powers of observation are
1:49:59
so good from tracking, they can just kind of, oh yeah, yeah, I can do that.
1:50:03
And then they learn to fix trucks and so on, and it happens.
1:50:06
Boom, boom, boom, boom.
1:50:07
So it seems that this total sequence in the early stages
1:50:11
leads to total independence later.
1:50:13
We seem to have it the other way round and that, you know, let the kid cry it out.
1:50:18
You know, make them be tough early.
1:50:21
And of course it just leaves them with great psychological holes.
1:50:24
I mean, I'm, any of us that we then have to fill in with things
1:50:28
like alcohol and whatever.
1:50:29
So it's different type of learned helplessness.
1:50:31
I agree.
1:50:31
And that seems to come down to tribe again.
1:50:33
And would you not agree that because you wouldn't want everyone to have to
1:50:37
go through what Rebecca went through because there'd be a, a wastage
1:50:41
and a casualty and attrition rate there that no, we don't want that.
1:50:45
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
1:50:45
I would not recommend it, no.
1:50:47
Rupert Isaacson: But what if the horses can help us with that?
1:50:51
'cause horses, as you know, well, they're gonna give you that feedback.
1:50:57
Yes.
1:50:57
And you're gonna make mistakes.
1:50:58
And sometimes you get clunked and sometimes you, you're gonna have to modify
1:51:01
your behavior around them 'cause they just are and they're gonna teach you.
1:51:07
So with programs like yours, I think, you know, you can take someone who
1:51:11
might've been in Rebecca's or might be in Rebecca's situation and say, we are
1:51:17
not gonna give you do everything for you.
1:51:21
And it's not learned helplessness, but it is a safe container where you can Right.
1:51:26
Do that.
1:51:27
Dr. Marc Evanko:
1:51:27
Educate.
1:51:28
Yes.
1:51:28
And that's, yeah.
1:51:29
The the youth programs that we've had are basically doing that here is, there's the
1:51:37
horse, here's the rope he has a halter on.
1:51:43
We're gonna let you figure out how to catch him.
1:51:49
Go ahead.
1:51:50
Yeah.
1:51:51
But, but it's not, it's not, it's not Desmond because they'll never catch him.
1:51:59
It's digger who is, is happy to be caught, but he'll walk a little bit away.
1:52:07
And then someone would graduate.
1:52:10
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
1:52:10
To Desmond.
1:52:11
Dr. Marc Evanko:
1:52:11
To Desmond.
1:52:12
Yeah.
1:52:13
So that, so that it is an attainable task, but.
1:52:19
You hand a rope to someone and say, for that has never been around a horse
1:52:26
before and maybe has here, been here one time, adult or child, it doesn't matter.
1:52:36
Here's your rope.
1:52:38
There's the horse.
1:52:39
Yeah.
1:52:43
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:52:43
What are you gonna dig?
1:52:45
And you're gonna learn to help yourself starting here.
1:52:47
And there'll be no, there'll be no punishments.
1:52:48
If you get it wrong, there'll be no negative outcome for you.
1:52:52
Yeah.
1:52:52
Sorry.
1:52:52
Something different.
1:52:52
And if it doesn't work today, we'll figure it out tomorrow.
1:52:55
Dr. Marc Evanko:
1:52:55
Exactly.
1:52:56
Rupert Isaacson: But figure it out.
1:52:57
We will.
1:52:57
Yeah.
1:52:59
No, I, I, I so respect that.
1:53:01
You know, we talked about the book, we didn't hear the title of the book.
1:53:05
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
1:53:05
Oh, it's Joy.
1:53:08
Rupert Isaacson: We like Joy.
1:53:09
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
1:53:09
Joy.
1:53:11
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
1:53:11
Because, because this is the other thing, you know, I love that you have that word
1:53:14
because when, when we're training people.
1:53:17
We're always saying, well, the problem's not autism.
1:53:19
Right?
1:53:20
Because there's lots of successful autistic people and
1:53:22
the problem's, not schizophrenia.
1:53:23
'cause there's actually quite a lot of successful schizophrenic people.
1:53:26
And there's, the problem is the suffering that goes with finding
1:53:30
yourself in the wrong place with these overwhelmed by all this stress.
1:53:35
Mm-hmm.
1:53:35
But, so the problem's actually suffering, not the condition.
1:53:40
'cause these conditions have always been around.
1:53:43
So what is the opposite of suffering?
1:53:44
If we want to, the opposite of suffering is joy.
1:53:47
Joy, yes.
1:53:48
So that's what we, you know, if, if, and again, you know, follow the child
1:53:52
work, I, I'd love that you call it joy, because that's what we have to do.
1:53:58
And if, if, if one gets these life skills, what's the point of them?
1:54:02
The point of them without
1:54:02
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
1:54:02
joy.
1:54:03
Right?
1:54:03
Yeah.
1:54:03
And,
1:54:03
Rupert Isaacson: and to experience joy.
1:54:04
To be able to access joy.
1:54:06
Right.
1:54:06
What do ponies bring into our lives?
1:54:08
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
1:54:08
Oh, absolutely, absolutely joy.
1:54:17
Rupert Isaacson: We are great purveyors of joy.
1:54:19
That's what we do.
1:54:21
That's, you know, we're lucky that we can do that.
1:54:25
So listen guys we've hit the two hour mark.
1:54:28
I'd love to have you guys on again.
1:54:29
Sure.
1:54:30
It's been, I feel I've only scratched the surface.
1:54:34
How do people find out about you?
1:54:35
Give us the web stuff.
1:54:36
How do they find out about Radiance?
1:54:38
How do they find about EQU therapy?
1:54:39
And m where do they get your book?
1:54:43
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
1:54:43
Website is the best place.
1:54:45
Wilder Wood equine
1:54:46
Rupert Isaacson: therapy.org.
1:54:49
Wilder Wood.
1:54:50
Equine therapy.
1:54:51
Word?
1:54:51
Equine?
1:54:53
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
1:54:53
Yes.
1:54:53
Rupert Isaacson: Org.
1:54:54
Org.
1:54:54
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
1:54:54
ORG.
1:54:55
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
1:54:55
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
1:54:55
Mm-hmm.
1:54:58
Rupert Isaacson: And the books on
1:54:59
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
1:54:59
Amazon.
1:55:01
On Amazon, yeah.
1:55:02
Rupert Isaacson: Co,
1:55:03
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
1:55:03
co.
1:55:04
Rupert Isaacson: Thank you Co guys.
1:55:06
Thank you.
1:55:08
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
1:55:08
Thank you so much.
1:55:09
Thank you for the invitation.
1:55:11
We're very
1:55:11
Rupert Isaacson: grateful.
1:55:12
You, very
1:55:12
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
1:55:12
wonderful.
1:55:12
And we feel very privileged to be having had the chance to talk with you today.
1:55:17
Rupert Isaacson: Well, likewise, likewise.
1:55:18
Thank you for making the time, and we will do it again.
1:55:22
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
1:55:22
All
1:55:22
Rupert Isaacson: right.
1:55:23
Take care.
1:55:24
Take care guys.
1:55:24
Thanks a lot.
1:55:25
Dr. Rebecca Evanko:
1:55:25
Bye-bye.
1:55:25
Okay.
1:55:26
Bye-bye.
1:55:26
Byebye.
1:55:26
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1:55:30
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