Latest / The Wellness Esquire Podcast: Happy, Healthy, Successful Lawyers / The General Counsel Who Missed His Son’s Greatest Play for an Email He Can’t Remember - with Matthew Campobasso

Transcript

The General Counsel Who Missed His Son’s Greatest Play for an Email He Can’t Remember - with Matthew Campobasso · The Wellness Esquire Podcast: Happy, Healthy, Successful Lawyers

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: What a phenomenal conversation with Matt Campabasso.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_01: After reaching the very top of his career, what some lawyers would view as the pinnacle of success, Matt looked around and thought to himself, is this it?
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_01: That thought led him to therapy, journaling, creating a substack, recording a podcast, and now authoring a book called The Case for Letting Go.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_01: Matt and I talk about why it's not enough to build a life and career based on external validation.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: We talk about the work it takes to get to know and value yourself and to know that you're enough even without that lawyer identity.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: We talk about values and priorities showing up for yourself and the people around you, and about getting honest with the people in your life that you might not have shown up for before because you thought your job was more important.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_01: And we talk about what it looks like to be a leader who genuinely cares for his team members as individuals, not just as lawyers who help you get the job done.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: We get into a lot, and I could have kept the conversation going.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_01: For more with Matt, be sure to check out Matt's Substack and podcast, both called The Case for, and of course Matt's new book, The Case for Letting Go, freshly out now, and all linked in the show notes.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: But first, enjoy my conversation with Matt Cambabasso on the Wellness Esquire podcast, and please rate and subscribe.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_01: Nice to meet you.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: I uh, you know, LinkedIn is such a magical place.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_02: It is.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: And when I saw your uh your post the other week, I just thought, oh, you're you're exactly who I need to have on the podcast.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm I'm delighted to be doing this.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I really appreciate uh the connection and being so flexible with my schedule.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_02: It's been a challenging few weeks.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_02: I've got three kids and and they've been sick and you know, work and spring break and all that stuff.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_02: So it's been a little bit of a challenge the last month or so.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_02: So your willingness to be flexible, but also to accommodate the book is been wonderful.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_02: So thank you.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you're welcome.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's uh I feel like I now talk about this on on every episode, like that the flexibility should not be seen as a big deal.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_02: It is though.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_02: That's the world we live in, though, right?
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you're you can change it.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_02: I agree.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_01: And well, and I think you talk about some of these too things too, around like we make things urgent that aren't, and the things that we decide, oh you know, the the things that end up actually stressing us out aren't even the things that really matter.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I guess I've just chosen that, you know, things around scheduling.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just I'm no.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes it matters, but most of the time it really doesn't.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I guess I'm gonna be the one who's just shouting it from the rooftop, saying, like, guys, come on.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I've you know what?
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_02: If if if you're shouting nice things, which this definitely is, I'm all for it.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like even in your emails, um, you were like, hey, no stress, you know, there's there's a sense of even when I was reaching out to be like, hey, I'm so sorry, you know, this there's a guilt that comes along with it, right?
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_02: Because and and you were just immediately like, no, that's it's fine.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_02: Any reason, even if you're just like, not today, which you know, some days I do find myself, you know, whether it's work or something, I'm just like, oh man, I don't have it in me today.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_02: And it was a breath of fresh air for you to not only like react kindly to me being like, hey, I need to move this, but also to like lead with that.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_02: It was very disarming in like the best way.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_01: So well, I'm glad I can be disarming in such a uh simple way.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_01: What do you think?
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, first of all, you were sick or you were getting sick, and yes.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: No, I'm yeah, I think it's the lawyer.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and I get that.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I've uh I I have pushed through um health challenges to a really stupid degree.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_01: And well, I'll just share.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if you've uh I I've shared this one um before, but I don't I I for anyone who hasn't been uh stalking me for a while, you might not know um that when I was in, I have a really complex health history, which is part of what led to the wellness esquire.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um really just I was done being quiet about it because it's part of who I am and it's part of why I'm good at the things that I do.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_01: But when I was in law school, when I was a one L, I didn't have all of my diagnoses yet.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I was in the hospital for a week and it did not go well.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I'd been there for a couple of days, they were driving me on a treatment, I've been misdiagnosed, it was a mess.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_01: And there was a night where I was quite sure I'm dying.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: I remember feeling like I was on fire.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_01: The rescue and revive team came in.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone was terrified.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: I learned later.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_01: I wasn't really tuned in at the time.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_01: And after I didn't die, I stayed up until three in the morning drafting a brief, a draft for, you know, just it wasn't even like a fight, and it was law school.
• 4:54
  unknown: Yeah.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_01: And if I didn't get it done for the next day, I was gonna have to drop the class and take it again.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_01: And that that wasn't my style.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_01: So I just look at it now and I'm like, wow.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't know.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_02: It's hard to see it when you're in it.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_02: When you're in it, it's very challenging to see it because you feel like you're just doing what needs to get done on a day-to-day basis.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_02: None of it feels like that much, but when you step back and you look at the patterns, that is where, you know, and good for you realizing that in law school, whereas it took me 20 years.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't realize it in law school.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, okay.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_02: I thought the story was, and then I set it down and I thought it was.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_01: No, I'm saying that was just like that was an example of the way I showed up for my life, including when I got my sixth concussion in 2018, and I tried to push through it for a month.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_01: And that was also not no, and it was actually it was that concussion that helped me see because I tried to push through it for a month.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: And after a month, it became very clear that that that was the first thing I really hadn't been able to push through.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_01: And so I had an identity crisis.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: Who am if I can't push through absolutely everything, including a very serious head trauma?
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's when I I felt really forced to take a break.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_01: And that's not comfortable.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_02: No, but it is to your point, you almost become conditioned.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah, that if you to your point, if you don't, this is what you do.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_02: This, you know, I already here we are, you know, five minutes into chatting, and I'm already like, oh, I could be talking to myself because I that was how I defined myself for majority of my life, was just like, oh, I'm the one who does hard things, I'm the one who doesn't make excuses, I see a wall, I run through it, you know, injury and and and wellness be damned.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, then I started having kids, you know, and you're just like, oh, well, then I'm gonna take their response, you know, their wellness on me.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_02: And it was always at the sacrifice of myself, but that mode was like intertwined in my DNA.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_02: And so I didn't stop and think, oh, you know what?
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, now in this day and age, and I love that this is the world we live in.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_02: It's not uncommon to hear people talk about like you have to take care of yourself.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_02: Wellness is important, you know, any number of different cliches, you can't pour from an empty glass.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm sure I heard those things, but I was like, oh, those are for other people, not for me.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_02: I don't, I can pour from an empty glass.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, I always say father time is is undefeated.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_02: And over the course of time, whether it's getting older or taking on more responsibility in my professional life or my kids getting older and me having to be, you know, a different type of father to them rather than just changing a diaper, you have to kind of dig down.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_02: And I think for most lawyers, it comes a time where if you're honest with yourself, you realize, like, you know what, I don't have to be everything to everyone.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_02: And it's a hard thing to let yourself feel because it is truly, you know, anybody who's a lawyer who's listening, I think will know this.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_02: Non-lawyers might wonder, what do you mean?
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_02: Like, but I I equate it to almost people who like political divides in our country.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_02: You know, people are like, oh, I'm a Democrat or I'm a Republican.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like, it's who I am at my core.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_02: And so no matter what life throws at me, this is my belief set.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_02: And I found myself feeling that way.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_02: And then I remember thinking, well, wait a minute, if I'm not that person, or if I let myself not be that person, then who am I?
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_02: And that is terrifying.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_02: It really is absolutely terrifying.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_02: But then I think if you sit in it for a bit and you're deliberate and you're like, you know what, this is not sustainable.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um then you start to realize I don't have to be this person.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_02: And I think for me, part of and we can talk about the book whenever you'd like, but for me, a lot of it was what came before the book was just being honest with myself.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_02: And I was in, I'm in, I was in therapy, I see a therapist weekly.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it's one of the best hours I spend of my week.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I think about, you know, 20 years ago, would I have said that out loud?
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_02: No, because you you think people are like, oh, there's a stigma attached to it.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, you know, I have two brothers.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_02: One's a lawyer for IBM, and I remember years ago he was seeing a therapist, and I believe that he still does.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and he got he was very vocal about like mental health awareness month, which I know is is this month.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_02: And he was talking about it on social media, and I reached out to him because I was like, Hey, are you okay?
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_02: And he's like, Yeah, I'm fine.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, Okay, are you sure?
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you're talking about a therapist.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_02: And and he said, you know, if your neck hurts or you get a flu or something, you go to a doctor, you take care of, you know, your muscles and your back and and your skin.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_02: Like, why wouldn't we take care of our emotions?
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_02: And I just remember thinking, whoa, like, you know, and I wasn't where I am now in my journey, but I remember him saying that.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_02: And so, yeah, I mean, I've been in therapy for years, and I think about, you know, I tell people that, and they're like, well, is everything okay?
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_02: And I say to people, you don't have to be in a state of crisis to go to therapy.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, if you're in a state of crisis, go to therapy, right?
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_02: But, you know, it's the people who are like, oh, I'm really struggling, and they go for a month, and then they work through whatever those acute symptoms are, and then they step out of it.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like, you know, I tell people, you should you should find a good therapist, talk to them, build a relationship, build a level of trust, be open and honest about the mistakes you've made, the good you've done, the bad you've done, and just work through it because you can't solve a problem.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_02: And this is this is the lawyer analytical part of my brain.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you can't solve a problem you're not willing to admit that you have.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_02: And not every problem is, you know, a an indictment on who you are as a person.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_02: Some of it is just a product of how you grew up.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_02: And in the book, um, which uh again, we can talk about have you ready?
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, why don't I why don't I stop?
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_02: You you tell me what what we can just I love where this is going.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, well, we we're talking about therapy.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_01: So do you want to start with just sharing what led you?
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: You your brother was already kind of into it at a time when you were like, why are you talking about this?
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_01: You would only talk about it if it was really serious.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_01: So what was there a point, like a moment, or was it a series of moments all struck together?
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_02: I think so.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_02: I I'd say going back about two and a half years ago, I had, so I'm 47 years old, and I have been a lawyer for this is my 20th year practicing.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_02: I've done government prosecution.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_02: I worked at a big law firm, you know, I made partner, I had all the supposed accolades that go with that.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um, really, it's just stress and you know.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then I decided to go in-house and I became an assistant general counsel and then a deputy general counsel, and then a general counsel, and then a chief legal officer.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_02: And about two and a half, three and a half years ago, I was elevated to be the general counsel of my last company, which was a publicly traded business.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_02: And I remember thinking, you know, it was my first general counsel of a public company role ever.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, for non-lawyers, for lawyers, they'll understand the gravity that goes with a role like that.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_02: For non-lawyers, I tell people, you know, you can either be a law firm partner, a Supreme Court justice, a, you know, a public company general counsel.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_02: Those are some of the mountaintops that like lawyers think about when they're young.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_02: And I remember, okay, I had this opportunity, and I won't name names, but there were some people within the company that I think thought that I was, you know, I was 43 at the time, was was a little young to do the job.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_02: And I just remember thinking, okay, for one year, I am going to go a million miles an hour and I'm gonna do this job, and I'm gonna prove to everyone, you know, that I because there was talk about bringing somebody in to teach me, and I was just like, look, I there's not a lot of things I know about myself, but I do know that if I'm given an opportunity and I I will work hard and I will be successful.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_02: So I did that for a year.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_02: And my review happened with our CEO, and he was like, You're killing it.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_02: Like, don't change anything.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know why we thought we needed to bring someone in.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_02: In fact, you could probably teach other people at this company a thing or two about leading, and it was great.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_02: And I remember thinking, you know, this was December uh of 20, I want to say 2023.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_02: And I thought, okay, here I am.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_02: I'm at the mountaintop, you know, I've got three kids, they're healthy, a beautiful home.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_02: Life is all of the things that I was told you needed to be happy, and I have never been more unhappy.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_02: And I just remember thinking, like, okay, well, now what?
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, someone listening might think, oh, midi midlife crisis, or you know, whatever.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_02: And it wasn't that.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_02: I I appreciated the things that I have.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_02: I'm grateful for my kids and my health and my opportunities.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_02: But I started thinking, okay, something is off.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_02: And so part of that reflection um was kind of doubling down and turning my focus not away from my job, but taking back, you know, from that 200%, taking 100% and saying, okay, I need to get back in shape.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_02: I need to reconnect with friends and family, you know, do some reflection about what do I want next in my life.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_02: And part of that was therapy.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_02: And so it wasn't, you know, an addiction and it wasn't some sort of fracture in my life.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_02: It was just, all right, I, you know, I did everything that the world has told me I need to do, and I feel very hollow.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_02: And in the book, I talk about this, you know, just sitting at my three monitors one day, it was like five o'clock, and you know, by all accounts, had put in a good day of work and just thinking, like, is this all there is?
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_02: And and it's not a great feeling, right?
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_02: I felt lost.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_02: I felt, you know, and it was literally a days after the CEO had said, Hey, that thing you've been working for for a year, you did it.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_02: You proved us all wrong.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, I like the underdog role.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_02: I think it gives me a purpose in cases, but I'm not gonna be the underdog my whole life, you know, unless I'm just taking massive swings, and that's exhausting for its own reasons.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_02: And so, yeah, I think I just was like, you know what?
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_02: I read some books, I did some reflecting, and I thought, I've got to work with somebody who, you know, uh this one's beyond my remit.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_02: I can't figure this out on myself.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_02: So I started seeing a therapist, and I'm incredibly lucky.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_02: The the gentleman that I met is who I still see to today.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I, you know, I've heard a lot of horror stories, not horror stories.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_02: I've heard a lot of stories from people who are like, oh, I had to meet with seven therapists before I found somebody that can be like dating.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_02: And I just was like, great, this guy's perfect.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_02: He was very direct with me.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I he wasn't afraid to challenge me, which I needed.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, I just it's been a great, we've had a great relationship.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sure I'll probably see him in some shape or form for the rest of my life.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, that's um so yeah, it's not some Hollywood, you know, existential crisis where I was like, you know, sitting in my office crying or something like that.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_02: It just was, I just was like, you know what, something's off.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_02: And I think acknowledging that there was a problem was the first step.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_02: And then it immediately became, you know, how do I solve this?
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_01: Did you have a sense at that time of what you wanted to feel?
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it sounds like you knew that that what you had what you were experiencing wasn't it, but did you have any sense of what what the goal was?
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_02: I think for me, part of it was that's a great question.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and I don't know that he and I ever got into that.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_02: Because that's such a it's such a fundamental question.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_02: I think it was you know, and I'm gonna keep kind of veering back to the book because I just was like, I need to write this because I think there's probably other people out there.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_02: But going back to law school, let's do this, let's let's take a step back.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_02: So you mentioned law school and your unfortunate hospital stay and all that craziness.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, I I remember my first day of law school, and I talk about this in the book.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_02: The dean of students came in and she said, Hey, welcome to law school.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, in three years, we're going to change the way your brain works, and you're never going to not think like a lawyer again.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_02: And the people that you know are gonna say, Can you just not be a lawyer for a second?
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_02: And if we do our jobs, it's gonna be impossible.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_02: And she didn't say it like in a you know scary way.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_02: It was more like, look, you're gonna start to think about things analytically, you're gonna read case law, you're gonna think about, and I thought, okay, makes sense.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I think that is logical.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then I realized, you know, it it does change the your programming.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I I sometimes I wonder, like, how did I see the world before that?
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_02: Because now when I look at the world, and even I've tried not to, everything that I see is a problem for me to solve.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_02: And that can not be that's not great.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I'm gonna relate to that.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_02: My kids come to me just to tell me about something, and I'm like, here's what we're gonna do.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_02: And I can see him be like, Whoa, my son, especially, he's 16.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_02: He's like, Dad, I don't need uh, you know, a strategy here.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_02: I just wanted to talk to you.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, oh yeah, you're right.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_02: So I've started doing this thing, and I've been doing this for a couple years, where I am very deliberate, and I do this at work too, where I say to my colleagues or my kids, I say, Look, do you want me just to listen?
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_02: Do you want me to give you some advice, or do you want me to get involved?
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_02: And I've realized at least 50% of the time, they just want me to listen.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_02: And that same is true at work.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_02: It's just like, hey, I need to bounce this off someone.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_02: And all I ever previously did was default to, well, I need to get involved.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_02: Here's what we're gonna do.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna deal with this, I'm gonna fix that, I'll send this email, I'll make this phone call.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, it gives you purpose.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_02: You feel like a superhero, you know, and it's not sustainable.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_02: And so that's that's a big part of where I have, to your point, a couple years ago, I kind of realized like I need to prioritize my own well-being in a way that I have been everyone, my colleagues, my my kids, my my partner, my family, my friends.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_02: I have been the savior, you know, and I would tell people, oh, my love language is acts of service.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_02: And I would always have some narrative around it to justify why I was that way.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_02: And then I remember thinking, like, oh, no one takes care of me.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_02: Not that the people didn't care about me.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_02: I don't mean to say it.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_02: It's not, you know, but it was just like, oh, I'm always the one who has to be helping other people.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_02: And it was always at the expense of myself.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think I realized I just needed to kind of let go of that idea and just stop white knuckling life, which I had been doing for at that point, like 18 years, um, because I could start to see the effects it was having on me.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so you just said you needed to let go.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_01: Is that where the name of your podcast substack and book that's coming out?
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, it is.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_02: It it and and it all started at as the book.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_02: I started, I was journaling at the at the suggestion of my therapist, and he would ask me, you know, questions around similar to what you asked, which is like, what are you what's missing, or what are you hoping to attain?
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_02: And it wasn't like I was I wasn't looking for something affirmative.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_02: I think I was thinking about okay, I need to set some things down.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_02: Like I have too much, I'm carrying too much.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_02: And that was in across my life, in in personally and professionally.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_02: And so I started journaling about like letting go.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_02: And this was two, two and a half years ago.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_02: And I was writing down stories from throughout my career where I struggled to let go and reflected on what it would cost me.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_02: And so, for example, the book opens with a story about myself, my me at my daughter's basketball game, and and there's a story in there about my son's football game.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_02: It's basically the same story, but I would be sitting in the stands and I would be at every game physically, but I would be in the stands with my phone, and inevitably I would spend half the game looking down at my phone because I don't know, someone that I worked with sat down at their laptop on a Saturday at 10 a.m.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_02: And I felt this intrinsic need to respond immediately.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_02: Because if I didn't, then they're gonna think I don't care, and I do care, and that's part of my identity.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_02: And so the I'll use my son.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: Story for example.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: I was at his football game in seventh grade and my phone dinged and I looked down.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, you always think, like, oh, I'm just gonna just two minutes, I'll do this.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_02: And all of a sudden, like the crowd erupted, and a dad sitting next to me is like patting me on the back, and I looked up and he's like, Did you see that?
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_02: And I hadn't seen it.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, Yeah, and he's like, That was incredible.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_02: And my son had made an incredible play.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_02: I hadn't seen it, probably the best play that he had made to in his career playing at that point.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_02: And I was mortified.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_02: I was embarrassed because I thought, Oh, if parents, you know, all these other parents are sitting there watching their kids.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_02: And I would tell myself sometimes, well, this is the price I pay for being successful, for being an executive, you know.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I missed the play.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_02: And then after the game, he, you know, he comes off the sideline with his pads and he's so excited, and he's like talking to me about the play.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_02: Did you see the angle?
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm just like, yeah, that was incredible.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I didn't have it in my I've I've since told him, hey, I didn't see that.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_02: And thankfully, he's gone on to play football and made many great plays, of which I have seen.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_02: But I remember thinking when I was journaling, I could not tell you what that email was about if my life depended on it.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_02: And I sacrificed on a Saturday at 10 o'clock, it wasn't like it was Tuesday at three, and I was playing hooky from work.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_02: And so I started journaling about situations like that just to be aware of them.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_02: And as I was writing, and I love writing, I started thinking to myself, you know, there's no way other lawyers don't feel this.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_02: And so I started to turn it into chapters, and then I sent out some chapters to some publishers, and I connected with a great publisher called the Brooklyn Brooklyn Writers Press, and they were like, We love this book, and we love the way you're writing, and it's vulnerable and it's raw, and we think there's a market.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_02: And so I spent about a year writing it, and then as I turned in my transcript, I felt like I kept having more to say, and so I started the Substack, which is called The Case for.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, the book is called The Case for Letting Go, and I actually have a copy of it here because I have to do a final read of it before it publishes next week.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_02: So uh on May 15th.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_02: And so I had more to say.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_02: So I kept writing in the Substack, and that has evolved over the last call it eight months.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_02: And as I was doing that, I started thinking, you know what?
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe other people have things they want to say.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_02: And so I had been on a handful of podcasts through my jobs over the years, and I always really enjoyed it.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_02: And I thought, you know what?
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna start a podcast.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_02: Not because I'm a particularly interesting individual, but I like talking to people and it forces me to listen.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_02: And I just think, you know, starting the podcast and the Substack, and we here we are on your podcast, it's a lot of work.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_02: There's the editing and all that, but I love it.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_02: I love, I've told people, if no one listens to my podcast, I don't care because I do episodes with guests and I learn from them, and I do solo episodes, which I write a script out for, but it forces me to reflect on something that I believe in.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_02: And I've always thought to myself, you know, I've done about 50 episodes that someday maybe my kids might stumble on it, you know, after I'm gone.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_02: And what a cool way to spend some time with their dad and like learn some things about, you know, I think a lot of the things I've talked about on the podcast, I try to communicate to them as a dad, but I'm sure I'm missing some of it.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_02: And so, yeah, the podcast, the Substack, the book, it's just come out of a couple years of incredible, incredibly challenging self-reflection and I think a level of vulnerability that I was not comfortable with previously, but it has been liberating.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's interesting that you framed yourself as well, you're not that interesting of a person, but here you have a podcast anyways.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: And first of all, I'll disagree with you.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_01: I think you are an interesting person.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's interesting that you're you've reached a level of success that a lot of people in our industry don't, they don't get there.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_01: And you've done it really well.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_01: You've done it so well that you're you were on a list recently of, you know, top, what is it, 40 legal innovators.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm gonna want to talk to you about what should people be.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_01: Why do you think you made that list?
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_01: Because there's a lot of lawyers out there, a lot of GCs, a lot more than 40.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_01: You're on the list.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: That's a big deal in this space right now with everything going on with tech and AI.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_01: And you're at that level, and you're saying, I've I've achieved this, what what a lot a lot of us call success, and I'm now gonna be really vulnerable.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think people like it couldn't be I shouldn't say, right?
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_01: I think I think you should, but a lot of I and I won't really agree.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_02: But I think you're you're saying something out loud that I have thought to myself many times, which is okay, I've reached this place in my career.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_02: You know, part of a lawyer's value is people trusting them and feeling like they're rock solid.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_02: But here I am talking about mistakes I've made and my vulnerabilities.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_02: And I've thought, is this counterintuitive to the image that I'm trying to not it's that sounds that sounds like I'm trying to be manipulative.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_02: Uh who you see on LinkedIn or in my podcast, that's who I am.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_02: And I I'm good, there's good in me, there's bad in me.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_02: I get things right, I get things wrong.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_02: And I think we are living in a time, thankfully, that people want that from their leaders.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_02: I think we have a lot of people in executive positions or in leadership roles where people don't really know what they stand for, or you know, people feel like they're being sold a false bill of goods.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_02: I tell people that I work with, hey, I'm, you know, I understand that you might look at my title and think I'm scary or you need to be, you know, on your A game.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_02: Don't like let's just figure this out together.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_02: And I have seen people like take a deep breath or, you know, and be like, oh wow, okay.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_02: And I just think that that's something that we need.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_02: We're all human beings.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_02: And I, in writing this book, I have it's in, it's in the book.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_02: It says, you know, I wish this had been something that was available when I started out as a lawyer because it would have saved me a lot of heartache and a lot of stress.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_02: I teach a I teach a class uh at University of Illinois, Chicago uh law school, and I just taught my first class last September, and I walked in and I basically said, Listen, you know, I asked questions of the students, what how does law school work these days?
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_02: Are they still not teaching you how to be a lawyer, but just you know, theory?
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_02: And everyone nodded.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_02: And I just explained to them repeatedly to the point where they were probably like, Why is this guy a teacher?
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but I kept saying, like, look, I'm telling you guys, I know that it feels like the only thing that matters as you're in law school and you're grinding.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_02: And it's easy for me to say from my cushy job and my, you know, my title, but I'm telling you, like, don't let the destination become the enemy of like the path you're on.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_02: Like, enjoy it.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_02: Enjoy your life.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_02: Don't let your job define you.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_02: And I've often told people, I hope someday, when my obituary is written, that the words lawyer and attorney do not appear in it.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_02: I don't want that to be how I'm defined.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_02: I don't find that as being who I am from a value perspective.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_02: I want people to think he's a good guy, he cared, he lightened people's loads, he learned from his mistakes and things like that.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um but I will tell you, 10 years ago, I would have been like, oh yeah, I want my first line of my obituary to be like partner, executive, and and that stuff just doesn't matter.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_01: So what has your process been?
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_01: I imagine a lot of it's been through journaling and talking to your therapist to go from lawyer is the most important part of my identity to I don't want it to be any part of it at all.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_01: I just want it to be a thing that I did.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I think it's been a big part of it, I think, is is my kids.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_02: I think, you know, uh, and I know not everybody has kids, but for me, it unlocked something that it put a lot of things into perspective.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm not that's not to say that it you can only have that perspective if you have kids.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_02: I know a lot of people who don't have kids who have incredible perspective.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_02: But I think for me, I was so single-minded about, oh, I have this.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_02: And every time I got a job, I thought, oh, this is an opportunity.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_02: I can't, I can't blow this or I can't let this, you know, waste this potential.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_02: And so, you know, maybe it's easy, someone might be listening and say, you know, yeah, it's easier for you, Matt, to say it's not that big of a deal because you've got the job, right?
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_02: You have that career.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_02: And that's not to say that if somebody prioritizes wanting that career and having that be their singular purpose or their primary goal in life, there's nothing wrong with that.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_02: I just think that what I would love people to remember is it shouldn't be the only thing that you are.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_02: It can be important.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_02: It has to be, right?
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_02: Lawyers have a there's a there's a certain level of responsibility that we have to our clients, whether we're in-house lawyers or government lawyers or law firm attorneys, you have to take it seriously because it's a serious job.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_02: But I was not good at kind of keeping a ceiling on just how important it was.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_02: And it got to be the only thing that mattered to me for a long time.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_01: This story that you shared, you have an ex a version with it sounds like a couple of your both you got three kids, right?
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_00: I have three kids, yeah.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_01: What one version with your son with the basketball game, and I think you mentioned another with your daughter where you're sitting there and you weren't paying attention, you were physically present.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_01: What do you think it is about so many lawyers?
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_01: Because it's certainly not you, where we think we've we've really been often explicitly led to believe and just implicitly guided to feel like, well, we we have to be on all the time.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_01: And if we're ever not, even on a weekend or even in the middle of the night, that indicates that we don't care and that we're not good enough and that we will not thrive in this profession.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_01: What's up with that?
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's so unhealthy, and it can actually lead to sustainable productivity.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_02: And it's and I will tell you, I was the person who thought even five years ago, oh, I'm gonna be the exception.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_02: I will sustain this.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_02: I watched people burn out two years in, six years in, ten years in, and I thought, oh, I will, but I was wrong.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_02: It's not sustainable across your career.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_02: Not if you want to have a life that has meaning, because not that you can't find meaning or derive meaning from your work, but lawyers are we're not building something with our hands, you know, we're not building railroads or skyscrapers.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_02: We are helping people navigate complex situations, whether it's a business situation or a personal one.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_02: And those are important things.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I think I have found even friends of mine who know that I don't do a certain type of law, they'll call me and say, hey, I have a huge problem.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_02: Like, and that's it means a great deal to me that they trust me.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_02: But I think more than I don't want to diminish the nature of my relationship with my friends, but I think it's more that they're like, oh, well, you're a lawyer.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I that's the person you go to.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_02: And I think from a societal perspective, whether it's film or television or books, you know, we've created this mythology around lawyers that they are these, you know, it's funny.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_02: I lawyers growing up, I remember hearing lawyer jokes and things and thinking, like, oh, people think lawyers are horrible.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_02: But then I got older and I started watching movies like A Time to Kill or movie, you know, there's things where, or to kill a mockingbird.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_02: And lawyers are these like beacon of like doing what's right and helping people navigate difficult situations.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think for me, at least within the profession, I often view lawyers as a repository for like faith and trust, and and this is someone you turn to when you have a personal situation that you need to navigate.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_02: Once a week, somebody reaches out to me.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_02: It could be like, hey, I didn't get my bonus paid through my job.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_02: What do I do?
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_02: And I'll be like, oh, send me your employment agreement.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_02: Or, oh, you know, my friend got she's having a custody issue with her ex, or hey, I my friend got a DUI, and I'm always trying to help people, but it's like I'm also like, hey, I'm I don't do any of that kind of law, but let me help you meet someone who does, or let me give you a little bit of advice.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think with that, you know, in those situations, you're helping people, so there's kind of a savior complex that gets wrapped up in it, and I think within that you become convinced that you can do anything, and I think then you start to raise the ceiling on what you expect of yourself, and then you never want to let anybody down, and you don't want to fracture that.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_02: And that was that's absolutely been my experience.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_02: I remember thinking my, you know, when I worked in my law firm days, I was one of the associates who build the most hours every year.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_02: I'm one of eventually one of the lawyers at my firm.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_02: Out of 200 lawyers, I would bill like 2300 hours a year.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_02: And the other associates would kind of give me a hard time and say, you know, your reward for for being good is you get to do more work.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_02: And I remember thinking, like, yeah, but that's it's it's a self, it it shows me when people come back to me, it shows me that people trust me.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_02: And that feels good.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_02: You know, there's a there's a feeling of that does fill my cup, or it gives me a sense of worth.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_02: But what I've realized is every January 1st, those billable hours would go back to zero and everything would start over, and I would think, like, okay, we got to do it again.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_02: And it just, it's it's like you're, I think from from a legal perspective or from a lawyer's perspective, looking for that level of self-satisfaction, you're pouring into a cup that doesn't have a bottom.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_02: It's always it's never gonna, you know, you're just like, okay, I has to be steady.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and yeah, I know that's a bit of a deviation from your question, but I think feeling the need to perform and to be successful and to be great, and it's it's a type A thing that I think a lot of lawyers struggle with.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_02: And in my experience, I think it's a big part of why lawyers struggle with addiction and there's a lot of mental health issues in the law.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_02: And um I have been fortunate not to have those struggles.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_02: That's you know one area, but I definitely the stresses and the overwork and the burnout manif you know pr presented themselves in different ways to me.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think that some of this, maybe you know, starting with just for you, um stems from a lot of lawyers, or again, just you feeling like you're not enough on your own.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_01: And so you need all this external validation of like, well, look, I I'm the best, I won all the awards, I'm you know, billing the most you know, hours.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_01: Something from the outside has to say, I'm good enough because I don't know it enough on my own.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_02: Again, and I don't want to speak to every lawyer that practices a law.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure a million.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_02: But for me personally, I thrived on the validation.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_02: And a part of my journey the last couple of years, and this is in the book.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_02: The the book is written.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um, there's 25 exhibits, which are chapters.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_02: Each one opens with kind of a personal anecdote about something that I experienced, and then I talk about the lesson that I extracted, and there's like a toolkit about like, hey, here's how you can reflect as a lawyer, as a professional, to see if this is something maybe you struggle with.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_02: And here's what worked for me, maybe it'll work for you, maybe it won't.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um, the things that I talk about in the book is I will tell you two, two and a half years ago when I started seeing my therapist, I remember thinking what more validation is there?
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I I've I've got this job, I'm successful, you know, my kids love me.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_02: I'm a good dad, I'm involved in the community, I volunteer at the school.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like I it didn't, I was like, okay, but I still feel empty.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_02: And so what I realized, and I talk about this in the book, and it's not all in the book, but this is something I continue to work on, is the validation that we feel the sustainable validation has to come from within.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_02: It has to like you have to.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_02: I have realized I outsourced, I needed the world to tell me who I was, like a hundred percent.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_02: Like because I wasn't doing it to myself.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_02: And when the world got quiet or when something bad would happen at work, which it would, I would be shaken to my core.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_02: I would think, uh-oh, like, you know, and I wouldn't remember the 25 awards or accolades or congratulatory emails.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_02: I would remember that one thing, and I would never, I would feel so low.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_02: And so what I've realized over the last couple years, especially the last year, I've really worked on it is I have to have an internal core foundation that knows who I am and finds value in who I am.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_02: And it's it it you have to go through personally, I had to go through a lot, and that's a lot of the journaling I do.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_02: Like, what are things that I do?
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_02: Little things, not didn't have to be big things, that you know, I have value as a human being.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_02: Because I think as a lawyer, you you're coming out of school, right?
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_02: And it's a formative time for a lot of people.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_02: If people go to law school right after college, I know people go at different times, you're still figuring out who you are in the world.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_02: And when you're in law school, it's all consuming.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_02: And then you start practicing and it's all consuming.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_02: So that's the only signal you're getting, you know.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_02: And and again, it's I have a family, I have friends who love me, who support me.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_02: I don't mean to make it sound like I wasn't getting positive reinforcement for who I am as a human being, but because I was a lawyer, that was the primary validation that I looked for.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_02: And it's it's not gonna last forever, right?
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_02: It'll go quiet eventually.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, even if I you be the the thing that you said you saw about the the you know the innovative lawyers thing, that happened last week.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_02: I'm incredibly honored that I was selected to be on the list.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but the people reaching out to me are like, this is unbelievable.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_02: You were on a billboard in Times Square, and I'm like, not a big deal.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_02: And I actually think that might be the healthiest way that I've ever received that feedback.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_02: Because yeah, I posted about it online.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_02: I'm proud of it.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's a reflection of you know the work I've done in my career.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_02: But also, I'm still me, right?
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_02: And in a month, no one's gonna remember that.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_02: What people are gonna remember is, oh, Matt's a good guy, he's reliable, I can lean on him if I need something, or my kids are gonna be like, oh, when I forget my track shorts at home, my dad's gonna bring him to school mid-morning and skip a meeting if he needs to.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_02: And so that validation that's the kind of the ironic part is the validation continues to come at a pace that I've never really experienced.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it's I've hit a point of critical mass of success in my career, but I can say, in no disrespect to any awards or anything like that, it couldn't mean less to me than it does right now.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_02: And I actually think that might mean I'm at the healthiest point of my life from uh from a validation perspective.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_01: I my uh general view on all of these kinds of awards is they're silly.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_02: I think they've used the word silly, by the way, in text messages the last few days.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_02: And again, no disrespect to the fine folks who's mixed.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_01: I think they're a mix of having value, and sometimes the value isn't just saying, hey, you know what?
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_01: I'm trying to learn how to do this better.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_01: Here's a list of people I can reach out to and and learn from.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_01: Fantastic.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_01: That's great.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_01: I think they're silly in that a lot of the words, I'm not saying this one specifically, but a lot of the words, like they're a game.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's a lot of it's a popularity contest.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's who do you know?
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_01: Who did you maybe pay?
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's there's more going on behind the scenes than most people realize.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not to say we shouldn't have them, it's just to understand their limitations.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I think, you know, you said you're you're uh getting more and more of this kind of external validation than you ever did.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I would have to assume that it's because you don't need it anymore.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_01: And so you're now just showing up more and more as yourself, not worrying about all these kind of, you know, all the maybe the ways that you could uh disappoint someone or disappoint yourself or be, you know, not the leader that you think, you know, everyone's expecting.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_01: And so it they're coming more naturally because people are recognizing that you're not limiting yourself to be in a box anymore.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_02: And I I think there's a degree of my willingness to talk about the success I've had, but also the mistakes I've made that unlocks a level of vulnerability.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_02: And I've had a lot of people say to me, like, oh, I listened to you on this podcast, like, you know, you're very unassuming, like humble guy.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, oh, well, good.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_02: I, you know, I don't see myself from the outside, so I don't know that.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_02: But I guess I I've realized that, you know, I could not get a single award for the rest of my career, and I would be okay.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's not it's none of that's gonna define my level of happiness in my life, not in a meaningful way.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_01: So you've you've done a lot of work, clearly, to get to know yourself at your core and to, I'm gonna say, like yourself on your own without other people's opinions.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_01: What do you like in value?
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: You and love about yourself.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I think it's funny because some of the things that I've kind of stripped down and rediscovered are similar to some of the things that have made me a successful lawyer.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_02: I think I'm I'm reliable.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_02: I think people know that I'm kind.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I I've never really taken myself too seriously.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_02: I I consider my sense of humor probably one of my favorite things about me, and I love to make people laugh.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_02: And so I've realized that, you know, titles and earning power and accolades and awards, those things are again, they're fleeting.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_02: And there's there's a saying, I'm sure you've heard it, which is, you know, people don't remember what you tell them, they remember how you make them feel.
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_02: And I have been someone that people gravitate to, that people return to.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_02: And I have realized over the last year and a half or so that that's probably one of the things about myself that I I don't know why or how.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_02: I just am being who I am authentically.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_02: But I feel like, you know, if I make people feel seen and valued and important, like that's an incredible thing because I again I as a dad, I look at the world through my kids' eyes a lot.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_02: And um I think about my own childhood.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_02: And I had a my mom and dad are incredible, my brothers are great.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_02: I had a great childhood.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_02: I did deal with some bullying, like in fifth, sixth, seventh, and eighth grade.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, it was before like bullying was, I mean, it was a thing, but like it was the 80s.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_02: Like no one really kind of was like, oh, these guys are mean.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_02: But I had a rough few years, and I remember thinking as I got a little older, a little more confident in who I was, you know, I never want to make someone feel like that.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_02: I've realized like the things that are ordinary, you know, the things that aren't they don't give awards for, you know, being kind, being reliable, being authentic, those are the things that I've always been.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_02: And I think they've helped me be successful because I think as a lawyer, you a lot of your ability to be effective with your clients, with a court, with companies is people's trust in you and their willingness to like understand that you're thoughtful.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_02: And so, like I said, some of the things that have made me successful as a lawyer, I think are good qualities to just have as a human being.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_02: And I think peeling away the fact that they helped me be successful and just letting them be valuable on their own has been what's allowed me to really rediscover who I am without, you know, the name tag and the job description.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_01: What was your relationship with stress and anxiety pre-therapy and pre-while?
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, I I don't know that I was ever someone who was like debilitated by it.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_02: I I felt like I could always function, but I also think that I just kind of wouldn't let myself feel it.
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_02: I'd be like, nope, like I can't.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_02: That's a luxury that I don't have.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but what I realized is like you can push it down, but unless you actually work through the root cause, it's not going anywhere.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_02: And so they are very, it's very uncomfortable to allow yourself to be stressed out or to be anxious.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_02: I would find ways to almost harness that as like wind in my sails and be like, okay, well, I'm just gonna take control of this and I'm gonna grip tighter and I'm gonna will this to a certain outcome.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_02: And again, to go back to the book, like it's it's a very simple title.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_02: You know, the case for obviously alludes to the fact that I'm a lawyer, but letting it's just letting go.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_02: It's truly just, you know, letting letting go and realizing that I'm not an ER doctor who's saving lives.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_02: And what I do is important, and important is a relative, it's a scale.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_02: And so what I do is important, I have to show up, I have to be serious about it, but I shouldn't let it cannibalize my own well-being, and not just for myself, which I'm obviously being more mindful and more intentional about taking care of myself, but I've mentioned my kids quite a few times, you know, uh, they didn't get to pick who their dad was, right?
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_02: I they I at a point in my life we made a decision to have kids, and I owe it to them to take care of myself because I want to be here for as long as I can to to raise them, to teach them, to protect them when I can.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_02: And so um, again, just kind of zooming out and allowing myself to realize like this is not that important.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if you've ever, I don't know if you I mean, I'm sure you know who Jerry Seinfeld is, everyone does, but I read this thing once that over his desk that he writes at, he's it's been this way his whole career, he has a picture of the solar system.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_02: And he he and he I saw like an interview with him once, and the interviewer, it was like a video, and the interviewer was like, What is that?
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_02: And he's like, Oh, that's if you look here, that's the earth.
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_02: And he's like, and if you had the strongest microscope in the world, you couldn't see me.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_02: So this just reminds me, I am insignificant, and so I feel like reminding myself, not that I'm insignificant, like I don't matter.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_02: I matter to the people that I matter to, but at the end of the day, the biggest stress in the world, it goes back to like I said about my son's football game.
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_02: If if you had a gun to my head and you were like, or you were like, hey Matt, not to let's let's not take the violent approach.
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_02: Hey Matt, I'll give you a billion dollars if you can tell me who you were writing that email to that day at your son's football game.
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I could make something up, but I will never remember.
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_02: And it's just remembering that so much of what we do from a career perspective, it matters.
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_02: So we got to do our jobs, but we also have to know how to separate that from you know what something mattering.
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_02: Sorry, I'm not doing a very great job of talking about this the way I would like to.
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_02: Things matter in different ways, right?
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_02: Like my job matters because it allows me to pay my bills and support my family and things like that, put food on the table.
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_02: But at the end of the day, I'm on my deathbed, it's not gonna matter.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_01: I I think about all of that more and more.
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_01: And my my sort of uh I have a physical location that I think about, um, or a few actually, that help me with that mindset.
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's like being in Joshua Tree, for example, and those kinds of like Yosemite.
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's just for me being in like enormous physical spaces where the nature is so astounding and just like I'm I'm I'm it's I'm so small.
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'm small in general, but like then you compare me to like the mountains, and it just helps me remember all of the things that I'm stressing about, you know, the the worries, the mistake that I made, did I do this perfectly?
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_01: Probably not.
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_01: Like all of the things that were I it just helps to put everything into perspective.
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_01: And it doesn't mean that the things don't matter at all.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_01: It just means like it's if you've heard people talk about like, you know, will this matter in five minutes, five, you know, five months, five years, that idea?
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_01: Well, probably not.
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_01: And if it does, like it will matter less.
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I feel like this is a good time to ask you about the rubber ball and glass ball theory.
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_01: What is that?
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so it's something that my mom, I want to say like a month ago, a month and a half ago, uh, she sent me.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_02: My mom loves to send me a video.
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_02: She, my mom is like most of the books that you see behind me, not most of them, maybe half of them, she has given me.
• 51:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um, she knows me.
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_02: She's like, hey, I think you might enjoy this.
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_02: And it just always has the ability to unlock something for me that I maybe was grappling with.
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm hoping I hope that I can be that for my kids as they get older.
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_02: But about a month and a half ago, she sent me a video that she saw online.
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_02: It was like a three-minute social media thing.
• 51:59
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not a big social media user.
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_02: I use it to kind of talk about my podcast, but beyond that, I'm not a big, I don't have social media on my phone.
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so she sent me this thing.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I I never have.
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's I think it was more of like a I don't know if this is a good thing.
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_02: Like I have a, you know, a compulsive personality, I think.
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I'm just like having the awareness that like this is probably not good for me has saved me a lot of heartache, I think.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_02: So um, but she sent me this video, and the whole concept to boil it down to its most basic was basically, you know, we all have everybody here is like, oh, I got a lot of balls in the air, I'm spinning plates or whatever.
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_02: But realizing like not every ball is created equally.
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_02: And the there's glass balls that if you drop them, they're gonna break, and that's something you can't get back, um, at least in the same form.
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_02: And then there's rubber balls, and if you drop it, it's gonna bounce.
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_02: And differentiating between, you know, I am someone who has a list on my phone of like a hundred things I want to accomplish in the next two months.
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_02: And if I stop and I'm honest with myself, maybe one or two of those things have to get done.
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_02: And so it's again, it's perspective, right?
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_02: If you look at those through one lens, they're all balls.
• 53:13
  SPEAKER_02: But if you step back and you're like, wait a minute, which ones matter, which ones don't?
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_02: And I think about, you know, sitting down on a Sunday and reading with my daughter for 45 minutes, that's a glass ball.
• 53:24
  SPEAKER_02: You know, if that Sunday passes and I don't take the time to do that, it's gone.
• 53:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, there's another Sunday at some point, but I'm never gonna get that Sunday back.
• 53:31
  SPEAKER_02: And so, you know, oh, I wanna go for a run, or I wanted to watch an interview, or there's a podcast I wanted to listen to.
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_02: Those are rubber balls.
• 53:41
  SPEAKER_02: And so, you know, it's not, you know, we live in a time where everybody likes to take complex things that we as humans have known for thousands of years and and like brand it.
• 53:52
  SPEAKER_02: And so I'm not usually a big person who gets hooked to those things, but the glass ball, rubber ball theory has really kind of planted its flag in me.
• 54:00
  SPEAKER_02: And it allows me to prioritize because I'm someone who's like, if there's a list of 10 things to do, if I look at that list without stopping and thinking about it, all 10 of them are life and death.
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_02: I have to get them done.
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_02: And if I don't, I have failed.
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_02: And what I'm trying to do is give myself a little more grace lately to say, okay, what of these things are glass and I have to get done, and which ones are rubber?
• 54:24
  SPEAKER_02: And it there's a degree of honesty with yourself about that.
• 54:27
  SPEAKER_02: You have to be honest and say, okay, really, what's what here?
• 54:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I think the funny thing is we've all got the glass balls, but I think if we're honest with ourselves, none of us is really as important as we think we are.
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_02: And so I would say probably nine or more, or 99 out of 100 of the balls that we're all juggling every day are rubber.
• 54:45
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think I would tell people just don't be afraid to let them drop occasionally.
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_02: And honestly, if you drop a glass one, you're gonna probably be okay, you know, and and maybe there's a lesson you learn from that one, but um I think we have to give ourselves permission to make mistakes.
• 55:03
  SPEAKER_01: Do you bring that mindset into your into work with your team?
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_01: And how how do you how does that how does that look?
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_01: How how do you guide your team to understand, you know, yeah, we have good, we've got work to do, it's important, it matters, but also you being okay and not burning out and understanding where things stand is also important.
• 55:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, it it presents itself in a few ways, one of which I think is kind of how I lead.
• 55:29
  SPEAKER_02: I think I lead by example.
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_02: Hey guys, it's four o'clock.
• 55:32
  SPEAKER_02: I'm I'm punching out to go watch my daughter run track, or I'm going to take my son to the driving range, or my seven-year-old has a art project I want to help her build.
• 55:42
  SPEAKER_02: I'll be back online later.
• 55:43
  SPEAKER_02: And so it's it's vocalizing to them, showing so it's like almost like modeling.
• 55:47
  SPEAKER_02: And these are adults.
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_02: They can, you know, they but you know, I work with really great.
• 55:52
  SPEAKER_02: I have two lawyers on my team at Zone, um, Shannon Kinsler and Wayne Kim.
• 55:57
  SPEAKER_02: They're unbelievable.
• 55:58
  SPEAKER_02: Like they are brilliant lawyers, incredible people.
• 56:01
  SPEAKER_02: I am so blessed to have them on my team.
• 56:03
  SPEAKER_02: They make my life easier.
• 56:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but they're both hard charging.
• 56:07
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, I have to sometimes be like, I see you on Slack, sign off right now, like jokingly, but I'll be like, go put your phone down, you know.
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_02: And and I just, it's not, I don't do it because I want to tell them how to live their lives, like to each their own.
• 56:23
  SPEAKER_02: But I sometimes want to be direct and overt with them to say, like, you know what?
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_02: I have been there.
• 56:29
  SPEAKER_02: I know the task.
• 56:30
  SPEAKER_02: No, they both have kids that are younger than mine.
• 56:32
  SPEAKER_02: And so I've made some mistakes along the way.
• 56:34
  SPEAKER_02: And I think I've I try to benefit.
• 56:37
  SPEAKER_02: Hey, look, it's okay to set this down or go enjoy yourself.
• 56:40
  SPEAKER_02: You know, one of them might be traveling on a day off, but they're like, I'm gonna have Wi-Fi on the plane, and I'll tell them, like, okay, do me a favor.
• 56:47
  SPEAKER_02: If you have Wi-Fi, use it to watch a movie.
• 56:50
  SPEAKER_02: Like, don't do not work, right?
• 56:52
  SPEAKER_02: Like, nothing that we're doing is if something is literally gonna burn the place to the ground, then we've done something wrong, like months ago.
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, you being online on the plane isn't gonna solve that.
• 57:04
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, with one of them, the introduction to the book uh that I wrote, I had not, you know, it's not published yet, but um, they were having a particularly stressful day, and I could kind of see them white knuckling everything.
• 57:19
  SPEAKER_02: And I sent them the introduction.
• 57:20
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, hey, can you read this?
• 57:22
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I just I think you might get something out of it.
• 57:24
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, they they they they humored me um and they read it, but I think everybody's got to come to those realizations on their own.
• 57:32
  SPEAKER_02: But I really try to show them, you know, listen, I don't expect you to be perfect.
• 57:38
  SPEAKER_02: I don't expect you to be online 24-7.
• 57:41
  SPEAKER_02: We're not saving lives.
• 57:43
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I make it a point to ask about their kids on our Slack channel that we have, we share pictures of our kids and funny stories about the weekends.
• 57:50
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, usually on Fridays and Mondays, we have a whole like, what are you doing this weekend, or what did you do this weekend?
• 57:55
  SPEAKER_02: I just want them to realize like, you know, they could stop working for this company tomorrow, and they would matter just as much to me as friends and as human beings.
• 58:06
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's, you know, a lot of people view lawyers as a means to an end.
• 58:10
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it's it's, you know, commoditizing humans in a way.
• 58:16
  SPEAKER_02: I think our profession has a tendency to do that.
• 58:18
  SPEAKER_02: And so I just, again, I don't know that any of those is like the magic approach that unlocks it, but I think it's just throwing a bunch of stuff against the wall and hopefully at the end of the day they feel like they're allowed to be them their full selves at work.
• 58:31
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 58:32
  SPEAKER_01: Is there anything else about the book or your experience writing it or anything since then um that you'd like to share?
• 58:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I I I hope people check out the book.
• 58:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um, much like my podcast, I if no one reads it, I think I learned some things about myself writing it, and so it was worthwhile in that sense.
• 58:52
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, yeah, I would love to hear from people uh if they check it out.
• 58:57
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I will say anybody who's written a book, my hat's off to you.
• 59:00
  SPEAKER_02: It is, I did not realize how hard.
• 59:02
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, oh, I wrote the manuscript.
• 59:04
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I'm done.
• 59:05
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's like a brief.
• 59:06
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, you might tweak a couple things or add a footnote.
• 59:10
  SPEAKER_02: It was absolutely like torturous at times.
• 59:14
  SPEAKER_02: And and I, the publisher was amazing, but anyone who's written a book or is considering writing a book, um, if you've written one, again, kudos.
• 59:22
  SPEAKER_02: If you're thinking about write one, writing one, write it.
• 59:24
  SPEAKER_02: I I would encourage anybody who thinks they have something to say, even if you don't publish it, like just the self-reflection that goes into writing a book like this has changed my life in ways that I don't think I've realized yet.
• 59:36
  SPEAKER_02: And so um, yeah, I just I hope that if some young law student picks this book up, you know, coming out of school or their mom buys it for them and you know, they put it on their bookshelf, that it makes their life a little bit easier because, you know, there's a lot of lessons in there, lessons I've learned the hard way.
• 59:53
  SPEAKER_02: And so um that's my that's my sincere hope for the book.
• 59:57
  SPEAKER_02: And I appreciate you having me on and giving me an opportunity to talk about it.
• 1:00:00
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 1:00:01
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so thrilled.
• 1:00:02
  SPEAKER_01: I'm thrilled to have you on.
• 1:00:03
  SPEAKER_01: I'm thrilled to know you now.
• 1:00:05
  SPEAKER_01: I'm really excited about your book.
• 1:00:06
  SPEAKER_01: I've been loving the podcast.
• 1:00:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and um thank you.
• 1:00:09
  SPEAKER_01: Really, I'm it's really fun for me to find people like you and to bring everybody together and say, hey, there's there's so many of us having these kinds of conversations.
• 1:00:20
  SPEAKER_01: And whatever kind of insights you're looking for, it's out there.
• 1:00:24
  SPEAKER_01: And we can all live live better, live happier, build the careers that we want.
• 1:00:29
  SPEAKER_01: And now you're you're just this tremendous example of showing up really authentically and sharing the challenges so that other people can learn from your experience.
• 1:00:37
  SPEAKER_01: And it's amazing.
• 1:00:39
  SPEAKER_02: Well, thank you, Ariel.
• 1:00:40
  SPEAKER_02: I really appreciate it.
• 1:00:41
  SPEAKER_02: And honestly, I think I've listened to some episodes of your podcast.
• 1:00:44
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's important that we as a profession are having conversations like this.
• 1:00:49
  SPEAKER_02: I think lawyers were just kind of, you know, assumed, hey, we just got to kind of deal with it.
• 1:00:55
  SPEAKER_02: It's an occupational hazard, and stress is par for the course, and and it is going to be, but it's also okay to talk about it.
• 1:01:02
  SPEAKER_02: And and I think having people out there saying, hey, it's okay to like be stressed or feel like, hey, uh, something's not working for me, I think it it gives people validation and hopefully it unlocks things for people because I do think it's a noble profession, but I think we've gotten the narrative wrong in some ways, uh, collectively.
• 1:01:23
  SPEAKER_02: And so hopefully, with the work that you're doing and maybe this this book, the work that you're doing.
• 1:01:29
  SPEAKER_02: There's some changes that are coming, and it'll be good.
• 1:01:31
  SPEAKER_02: Lawyers, the next generation of lawyers will have it a little bit easier.
• 1:01:33
  SPEAKER_02: That's uh that's my hope.
• 1:01:35
  SPEAKER_01: I I think they will.
• 1:01:37
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much.
• 1:01:38
  SPEAKER_02: All right, thank you.
• 1:01:40
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for listening.
• 1:01:42
  SPEAKER_01: I hope you got a ton of value from this conversation, and that you will check out the links in the description to learn more about the guest and the wellness esquire.
• 1:01:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I hope you take even just one minute to do something for yourself today.
• 1:01:54
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe right now.
• 1:01:55
  SPEAKER_01: Drink more water, say no, call a friend, do something that makes you happy, have a 30 second dance party, find something to make you happy.
• 1:02:03
  SPEAKER_01: Also, be sure to subscribe and send the podcast to a colleague.
• 1:02:07
  SPEAKER_01: And if we're not yet connected on LinkedIn, please fix that.
• 1:02:10
  SPEAKER_01: I'd love to know you.
• 1:02:12
  SPEAKER_01: See you next time.