Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Love behind bars: Women who marry convicted killers

Transcript

Love behind bars: Women who marry convicted killers · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:00
Speaker 1: Guys, what happened to a d C intern Schendrel Levy?
0:05
Speaker 1: She gets her dream internship in d C and immediately
0:10
Speaker 1: allegedly catapults into a sex relationship with the U. S. Congressman.
0:16
Speaker 1: That's allegedly, but what I do know is Chandre Levy
0:22
Speaker 1: was murdered. Why has the only real suspect in the
0:28
Speaker 1: Chandra Levy murder seemingly disappeared? Thursday Night on A and
0:36
Speaker 1: E eleven o'clock Eastern eleven p m. Eastern Grace versus
0:43
Speaker 1: Abrams bombshell, please join us Crime Stories with Nancy Grace
0:54
Speaker 1: on Sirius XM Triumph Channel one thirty two. Love behind Bars.
1:05
Speaker 1: It sounds like a cheesy movie or something that you
1:09
Speaker 1: get on pay per view, but it's real. How do
1:14
Speaker 1: people like the Menendez Brothers, Charles Manson, Scott Peterson, You're
1:20
Speaker 1: in vander Slute, even Jody Arius somehow managed to find
1:25
Speaker 1: a love life behind bars? Even getting married, engaged, uh
1:31
Speaker 1: sending money, Valentine's love letters? You name it? How does
1:37
Speaker 1: it happen? I Meancy Grace, this is Crime Stories. The
1:41
Speaker 1: Love behind Bars phenomena goes on with me. Alexis Torres,
1:46
Speaker 1: Chuck Radar Online dot Com Karen Stark, renowned New York psychologist,
1:51
Speaker 1: forensics expert Karen Smith, and veteran defense attorney Jason Ocean's
1:58
Speaker 1: Alexis Toresta first to you. You investigated Jodi Arias with
2:04
Speaker 1: Radar Online dot Com. Let me just give you a
2:07
Speaker 1: tiny taste of what Jodi Arias has to offer from
2:11
Speaker 1: behind bars. If you're here, my grandparents are sleep. Let's
2:16
Speaker 1: put you in, and my vegrooming to shut him at
2:18
Speaker 1: the door, and we were just hoping you go out
2:21
Speaker 1: of make me sore me seriously think about having sex
2:35
Speaker 1: with every day? Thank God. Good fine member. So, Alexis
2:47
Speaker 1: Toures Chuck, Radar online dot Com investigative reporter. That's just
2:52
Speaker 1: a tidbit of some of Jodi Arias phone calls, her
2:56
Speaker 1: X rated phone calls. That was with her murder victim,
2:59
Speaker 1: Travis Alexander. So apparently she's still luring men even though
3:04
Speaker 1: she's got a life sentence behind bars. What can you
3:06
Speaker 1: tell me, Alexis about Jodi arias love life. Her love
3:11
Speaker 1: life is almost as active behind bars as it was outside.
3:14
Speaker 1: She has scores of men that are writing to her.
3:18
Speaker 1: They're sending her love letters, They are also sending her money.
3:23
Speaker 1: They're putting it in her account, so that she has
3:26
Speaker 1: hundreds and hundreds thousands of dollars in her commissary account.
3:29
Speaker 1: And she goes crazy buying everything that she can in
3:32
Speaker 1: the commissary. And it's because these men think that she
3:35
Speaker 1: is innocent. They think she's going to get out of jail.
3:38
Speaker 1: They propose marriage to her, They send dirty messages. She
3:43
Speaker 1: has even a plan. She was writing with an ex
3:45
Speaker 1: boyfriend and they two of them had a plan for
3:47
Speaker 1: her to have a baby behind bars. White stop, stop,
3:50
Speaker 1: stop stop. I was listening to all of the Jodi
3:54
Speaker 1: Arias X rated phone sex tastes, but then I heard
3:57
Speaker 1: the word baby. What baby? What? Baby? She has this
4:00
Speaker 1: ex boyfriend and he, the two of them came up
4:03
Speaker 1: with some scheme that they would get together, they would
4:06
Speaker 1: have sex contual visit, and that she would get pregnant
4:09
Speaker 1: behind bars. Okay, what can you tell me about Jodi
4:14
Speaker 1: arius jailhouse, love letters and the weird odd reason men
4:22
Speaker 1: are quote love struck by? Jody Arias explained to me this.
4:27
Speaker 1: So she's beautiful people. She has gorgeous hair, she's gorgeous eyes,
4:33
Speaker 1: she is flirty, she's cute, and men are so attracted
4:38
Speaker 1: to her still and they think that she's this helpless
4:41
Speaker 1: little girl that is behind ours that they are going
4:43
Speaker 1: to rescue, like they're gonna be a night and shining
4:45
Speaker 1: armor and they're gonna rescue Jody Arius. Plus she's also
4:48
Speaker 1: like a vixen in the bedroom. Everybody knows from the
4:52
Speaker 1: trial all she there's nothing she won't do in the
4:55
Speaker 1: bedroom and they have acting out their fantasies with her.
4:59
Speaker 1: Take a list and to Jetty, are you speaking of
5:02
Speaker 1: love and sex fantasy? When we took a bath together,
5:06
Speaker 1: that was that was surreal, like honestly, and I think,
5:10
Speaker 1: I mean maybe the candle light and the bubbles all
5:13
Speaker 1: had something to do with it. But you are amazing.
5:18
Speaker 1: You made me seriously, you made me feel like a goddess.
5:21
Speaker 1: Like I wasn't saying you were like worshiping me, but
5:24
Speaker 1: you were. You made me feel like I was the
5:28
Speaker 1: most freaking beautiful woman on the whole planet, right, I
5:33
Speaker 1: I so felt like I was the goddess and so
5:38
Speaker 1: besides from all those warm, fuzzy feelings, but like it was,
5:41
Speaker 1: it was so sexy and it was so hot, and
5:44
Speaker 1: oh gosh, were freak you were hot interesting, arius is
6:00
Speaker 1: love interest one of them. But we know this. Less
6:04
Speaker 1: than twenty four hours after Arias brutally shoots and stabs
6:08
Speaker 1: Travis dead, she was acting quote sexually aggressive and quote
6:15
Speaker 1: acting normal when she shows up at a brand new
6:19
Speaker 1: boyfriend's home in Utah. Now we're not just spinning this.
6:25
Speaker 1: This is testimony, sworn testimony from the witness stand. It
6:30
Speaker 1: was Ryan Burns, then thirty two, then dating areas, and
6:35
Speaker 1: they had met at a conference, a work conference. Arias
6:39
Speaker 1: planned to visit him after weeks of phone calls and
6:43
Speaker 1: texts that were turning into a long distance relationship. And
6:47
Speaker 1: with just hours after murdering, brutally murdering Travis Alexander, she
6:53
Speaker 1: hops literally gets in bed with Burns and hops on
6:58
Speaker 1: top of him, straddling him and kiss him. This is
7:02
Speaker 1: just ours after murdering Travis Alexander. So Karen Start, renowned
7:09
Speaker 1: New York psychologists joining us, How does that mindset play
7:13
Speaker 1: into areas finding love behind bars? Well, it's the that's
7:20
Speaker 1: I don't think that it's the same at all, Nancy.
7:22
Speaker 1: Her finding love behind bars has to do with the
7:25
Speaker 1: people that fall in love with in a situation like this,
7:30
Speaker 1: and most of the time it's someone who has attachment issues.
7:35
Speaker 1: They're not able to have a relationship with somebody who
7:40
Speaker 1: is available to them. It's so much easier for them
7:43
Speaker 1: to have a relationship where there are restrictions, where they
7:47
Speaker 1: know the other person can't go anywhere, so in a way,
7:51
Speaker 1: they're in control and they don't have to have anything
7:54
Speaker 1: that's real. It could be more like a fairy tale.
7:58
Speaker 1: You could turn that other person into any when you want,
8:01
Speaker 1: and it becomes much safer and secure for them. Well,
8:05
Speaker 1: I guess what I'm referring to is to meet her
8:09
Speaker 1: behavior of having stabbed and shot Travis Alexander and leaving
8:14
Speaker 1: his body to rotten shower and then within a couple
8:17
Speaker 1: of hours driving to the next new boyfriend and literally
8:21
Speaker 1: hopping on top of him is a cold and calculated behavior,
8:26
Speaker 1: and I would imagine that type of manipulation is what
8:30
Speaker 1: she's doing behind bars. Alexis torres Chuck exactly. She is
8:35
Speaker 1: able to communicate with people. She has a poisonous pen
8:38
Speaker 1: that she writes to these men with, and she flirts
8:41
Speaker 1: with them, and and she sends she's an artist, and
8:45
Speaker 1: you're sending drawings, and these men are falling for it,
8:49
Speaker 1: and they still still are in love with her and
8:53
Speaker 1: still support her, and she's still manipulating people from behind bars. Well,
8:57
Speaker 1: they're falling for it. Karen Smith, when I'm forensics expert,
9:01
Speaker 1: joining me out of the Florida jurisdiction, Karen Smith, when
9:04
Speaker 1: I say cold and calculated, it's like a black widow,
9:09
Speaker 1: a spider in a web. She kills Travick's Alexander's I
9:12
Speaker 1: recall twenty plus stab wounds and then a gunshot wound
9:16
Speaker 1: to the head, leaves him there when he rejects her.
9:20
Speaker 1: What happened as I recall the testimony, Karen, and you've
9:23
Speaker 1: followed it closely. They had a love slash sex relationship,
9:29
Speaker 1: he broke up, he asked another woman to go on
9:32
Speaker 1: a camcoon trip with him. Arius drives hours across the
9:37
Speaker 1: desert with gas cans full of gas in her car,
9:40
Speaker 1: leaving no trail, which says to me she intended to
9:43
Speaker 1: kill him. Goes in and has a marathon day of
9:46
Speaker 1: sex with Travis Alexander, and then when he refuses to
9:50
Speaker 1: disinvite the new woman on the vacation, she stabs him
9:54
Speaker 1: twenty plus times and shoots him in the head and
9:56
Speaker 1: leaves him crosses the desert again to get hurt to
10:00
Speaker 1: her new boyfriend and literally hops on top of him.
10:04
Speaker 1: When I say cold and calculated, please Karen Smith, you're
10:08
Speaker 1: the forensics expert, describe the Travis Alexander murder, saying I
10:13
Speaker 1: would qualify it as a frenzy nancy. It was very,
10:19
Speaker 1: very bloody. There was impact spatter in a number of locations.
10:24
Speaker 1: Travis Alexander was found slumped in a small shower stall.
10:29
Speaker 1: He had been stabbed somewhere between and twenty nine times.
10:33
Speaker 1: Even the medical examiner couldn't count them all. And then
10:36
Speaker 1: he was shot in the head, probably post mortem as
10:40
Speaker 1: a coup de gras. His jugular vein, his carotid artery,
10:45
Speaker 1: his trachea were all sliced open. In other words, she
10:49
Speaker 1: split his throat from you know, side to side and
10:52
Speaker 1: left him there. It was an extraordinarily bloody scene. There
10:56
Speaker 1: were a lot of forensics that were collected at the scene.
10:59
Speaker 1: And you know, this just goes to show that when
11:02
Speaker 1: you stab somebody to twenty nine times, that's that goes
11:08
Speaker 1: to show somebody's mental state. When they go to this house,
11:12
Speaker 1: she drove across the desert, she goes to the house,
11:14
Speaker 1: she stabs him all of these times and then shoots
11:16
Speaker 1: them in the head. You tell me what somebody's thinking
11:20
Speaker 1: writing love letters to a person like that. I don't know.
11:23
Speaker 1: Listen to testimony at Jodi arias is murder trial regarding
11:27
Speaker 1: her very active love life message you're old. What did
11:36
Speaker 1: that mean to be? There some history behind that? Yes?
11:43
Speaker 1: What's that history? Sometimes he would call me out when
11:46
Speaker 1: we were having six Is that one of those things
11:54
Speaker 1: that made you feel special? Or how did you feel
11:57
Speaker 1: when he would refer to you as lt in bad? Well,
12:03
Speaker 1: he wasn't saying it as an insult, so I just felt.
12:06
Speaker 1: I don't really remember how I felt, but I just
12:08
Speaker 1: knew that that he was enjoying himself. He says he
12:19
Speaker 1: wants to send one down your throat and another on
12:25
Speaker 1: your face. What did that mean to you? Um oral
12:35
Speaker 1: sex and ejaculating in you? Yeah? Yes. He also says
12:52
Speaker 1: you're going to get taken like you have never been
12:54
Speaker 1: taken before. What did that mean to you? M um
13:03
Speaker 1: mm hmm. We're always trying to top ourselves, like go
13:08
Speaker 1: a little bit farther than the last time, And usually
13:11
Speaker 1: he would come up with some creative ideas. So most
13:14
Speaker 1: of the time I was game for it. What's the
13:19
Speaker 1: time you're what? Okay? But how about feeling like you've
13:27
Speaker 1: been raped? But you will enjoyed every delightful moment of it.
13:30
Speaker 1: Did you want to feel like you were raped? No?
13:35
Speaker 1: O mhmm, So you're accurate here. He also says you'll
13:54
Speaker 1: rejoice in being a whore. That sole purpose in life
13:58
Speaker 1: is to be mine, to have animal sex with, and
14:01
Speaker 1: to please me in any way I desire. Was it
14:06
Speaker 1: your ultimate goal of life to be Mr Alexander's for
14:13
Speaker 1: based on what you said before, you were interested in
14:16
Speaker 1: the faun and affectionate feelings you've got from him being
14:21
Speaker 1: happy right certainly not being as for well, I mean,
14:28
Speaker 1: that wasn't like how I would have put it, but
14:31
Speaker 1: that's that's how he put it. Right Joining me right
14:34
Speaker 1: now is renowned defense attorney Jason Oceans. Jason, even knowing
14:40
Speaker 1: what we know about the murder of Travis Alexander, notorious
14:44
Speaker 1: killer Jodi Arius reportedly finds love behind bars, and it's
14:48
Speaker 1: even has even been planning a prison wedding As she
14:52
Speaker 1: serves life behind bars for murdering her boyfriend. She apparently
14:57
Speaker 1: has fallen in love with one of her many admirers
15:00
Speaker 1: and has been planning, according to reports, a fairytale wedding
15:04
Speaker 1: behind bars. She is drowned with messages from men, gets
15:10
Speaker 1: marriage proposals on a weekly basis. She hopes to wed
15:15
Speaker 1: somebody and has said to want family and friends to
15:19
Speaker 1: join at the at the jail for the wedding. And
15:25
Speaker 1: in fact, they do have weddings behind bars about a
15:28
Speaker 1: fifty minute wedding held in the prison cafeteria with cupcakes
15:31
Speaker 1: for a wedding cake. Okay, Jason Oeshans, help me out
15:34
Speaker 1: what man it is, right mind would be interested in
15:37
Speaker 1: marrying Jodi Arius or even exchanging love letters? And is
15:41
Speaker 1: it legal? Jason harm, no foul. Notwithstanding the severity of
15:47
Speaker 1: anyone's prime notoriety for prisoners, both locally and nationally, attracts
15:52
Speaker 1: the the whackpack, if you will. Uh and uh wait
15:57
Speaker 1: what did you just say? It attracts the whack pack,
16:01
Speaker 1: the whack pack. W h A c K pack. That's
16:05
Speaker 1: a that's a group of followers of Howard Stern And uh.
16:09
Speaker 1: It's been commented on that one of the regulars communicates
16:15
Speaker 1: with Jody Areas. So, you know, strange people attract strange.
16:20
Speaker 1: You know, pent House Uh. But by the same token
16:24
Speaker 1: to some degree, Uh, it gives those inside something to do,
16:28
Speaker 1: keeps them occupied and engaging. Perhaps not in uh, you know,
16:33
Speaker 1: other criminality within the prison system, assaults and things of
16:37
Speaker 1: that nature. I don't I don't follow anything from a
16:39
Speaker 1: legal perspective wrong with consensual visits. Uh, it's certainly uh
16:45
Speaker 1: you know, I don't know that it's encouraged. But every
16:48
Speaker 1: every prison, as you know, provides for that. Uh And
16:51
Speaker 1: as you mentioned, wedding ceremonies. So it's strange uh and whacky. Well,
16:57
Speaker 1: the jail has stated Jason ocean Is that they don't
17:00
Speaker 1: know anything about a prison wedding yet. But apparently Jodi
17:06
Speaker 1: Arius has a very active love life and is getting
17:10
Speaker 1: thousands of dollars from these love lorn men Alexis to rest,
17:15
Speaker 1: she investigative reporter with rinar online dot com. How is
17:19
Speaker 1: this happening? Is she still drawing her so called art
17:23
Speaker 1: a sketching over other people's other people's stuff? Um? Is
17:26
Speaker 1: she still doing her art? And I'm more interested in
17:30
Speaker 1: do you think a wedding, a jail house wedding is
17:32
Speaker 1: possible for areas she is still doing her art now
17:36
Speaker 1: she's not allowed to sell it anymore, because then she
17:40
Speaker 1: would have to give the proceeds to Travis's family, and
17:43
Speaker 1: she doesn't want to do that. So she is drawing
17:46
Speaker 1: for people and secretly sending it out. So she could
17:50
Speaker 1: be drawing anything these days. She could draw her own
17:52
Speaker 1: nude body if she wanted to. But why did you
17:55
Speaker 1: have to put that in my head, Alexis for Pete's Like,
17:58
Speaker 1: I was right in the middle of sippings. I'm hot, Dean,
18:00
Speaker 1: you had to talk about areas drawing her own nude body.
18:04
Speaker 1: I mean, really, she is all about sex and that
18:06
Speaker 1: is probably the only thing that she has to still
18:09
Speaker 1: share with people. And because we don't get to see
18:11
Speaker 1: her anymore, she's locked up in this maximum security prison.
18:14
Speaker 1: She still is in the maximum limits. He hasn't earned
18:19
Speaker 1: any good favor, so she hasn't been lowered down any
18:22
Speaker 1: lower behind bars. Arizona is one of the strictest prison
18:25
Speaker 1: systems in the country, and they are not going to
18:30
Speaker 1: allow her to have conjugal visits or get married behind bars. Okay,
18:33
Speaker 1: take a listen to Jodi ariusview. You are serious to yourself.
18:47
Speaker 1: I am hard, right, I'm just sorry. Oh my gosh,
19:06
Speaker 1: that's so debasing it. We are now crossing the country
19:13
Speaker 1: more strange prison marriages. How can people have love lives
19:18
Speaker 1: behind bars, especially when you're convicted of double murder. No,
19:23
Speaker 1: I'm not talking about Jodi Arius. I'm talking now about
19:28
Speaker 1: the Menendez brothers to Alexis Torres Chuck investigative reporter, writer
19:32
Speaker 1: online dot com. I mean, have they been married and
19:35
Speaker 1: divorced and remarried? Do I have that straight repet my
19:39
Speaker 1: getting my murderers mixed up? You're not. It's hard with
19:41
Speaker 1: two brothers. The one Eric got married to a woman,
19:46
Speaker 1: he's still married. But then Lyle got married to a model,
19:50
Speaker 1: got divorced and a model. Now, say you and I
19:54
Speaker 1: may have different terms, different definitions of what a model is.
19:57
Speaker 1: Now their models um that model their hands. There aren't
20:03
Speaker 1: models that you know they're on the front of Vogue.
20:06
Speaker 1: Then there are models that are like standing in the
20:09
Speaker 1: window of sexy Lingerie, enter at your own risk through
20:13
Speaker 1: the back door. So what kind of model are you
20:16
Speaker 1: talking about? Alexis? She did a couple of photo shoots.
20:19
Speaker 1: She she's not Cindy Crawford or Kate Moss. Well, I
20:23
Speaker 1: gotta give her this. I mean, I haven't done any
20:25
Speaker 1: modeling photo shoots. So I'll give her that much. So
20:28
Speaker 1: tell me, let's get off the modeling question and onto
20:30
Speaker 1: the marriage question. So she married Lyle In. They started
20:36
Speaker 1: out as pen pals. They got married, and then they
20:39
Speaker 1: got divorced, and he actually got married again in two
20:42
Speaker 1: thousand three, not even ten years later, he had moved
20:44
Speaker 1: on to another woman and got marry Let's review the
20:47
Speaker 1: facts of the Menendez brothers murders. Lyle and Eric Menendez
20:53
Speaker 1: were convicted of murdering their mother and their father brutally.
21:00
Speaker 1: As the mother and father sat in front of the
21:02
Speaker 1: TV set watching TV and having a bowl of ice cream,
21:06
Speaker 1: they were shot multiple times. The mother tried to get
21:08
Speaker 1: away and they chased her down the hall and continued
21:12
Speaker 1: to shoot her. They were born with silver spoons in
21:15
Speaker 1: their mouths, and they immediately after the shootings went out,
21:21
Speaker 1: bought multiple brand new cars, got a full time tennis
21:26
Speaker 1: coach to help them with their tennis game. One bought
21:29
Speaker 1: a condo. I mean, it just goes on and on
21:32
Speaker 1: and on. Expensive watches and jewelry and their quote, grief,
21:38
Speaker 1: is that the way you recall the evidence? Jason Oceans, Yeah,
21:41
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, the the evidence is clearly spoken
21:43
Speaker 1: for itself. It was a brutal, brutal motor that that
21:48
Speaker 1: silver spoon went them into a jaded perspective. And uh,
21:53
Speaker 1: you know the attraction of those who are you know,
21:59
Speaker 1: in the gneral public attractive to this sickness is mind boggling,
22:04
Speaker 1: but relentlessly seems to go forward. The wacky continue to
22:08
Speaker 1: attract the wacky. Now in their defense, they did they
22:13
Speaker 1: did claim Jason, that the father had molested them. One
22:18
Speaker 1: brother also claimed the other brother molested him. I mean,
22:21
Speaker 1: the molestation charges were made. Long story short, they were
22:28
Speaker 1: convicted of double murder and they have found love behind bars.
22:32
Speaker 1: Your recollections, correct, Jason, So alexis torres Chuck. Who are
22:36
Speaker 1: the women that have fallen for the Menendez brothers? Lyles
22:40
Speaker 1: one that's been married twice. He married Tammy, the former model.
22:45
Speaker 1: They got married, which was not long after his case.
22:49
Speaker 1: This is this is right away, you know, he'd only
22:51
Speaker 1: been in jail a little while, and then they got divorced.
22:56
Speaker 1: So in two thousand and three he married a woman
22:58
Speaker 1: named Rebecca Sneed. She is unfortunately for Lyle, and I
23:03
Speaker 1: don't know if he knew this when they got married,
23:05
Speaker 1: but California does not allow conjugal visits for people who
23:08
Speaker 1: have a life sentence in prison, So they've never been
23:11
Speaker 1: able to consummate their marriage. They don't have children together, um,
23:15
Speaker 1: and it's all. They can visit each other in person,
23:18
Speaker 1: and they can write to each other, but they cannot
23:21
Speaker 1: have sex. I mean, who would want to, Karen Stark,
23:24
Speaker 1: They would want to. They would definitely want to. I mean,
23:26
Speaker 1: what woman in and right mom would want to have
23:29
Speaker 1: sex with a Menandez. Actually, before you answer that question,
23:32
Speaker 1: they're not in their right mind. Lyle Menendez speaking to ABC,
23:38
Speaker 1: he finds he can have a healthy marriage that has
23:41
Speaker 1: built around conversation. Take a listen to Tammy Menendez speaking now,
23:47
Speaker 1: who married Eric Menandez double killer. I didn't set out
23:51
Speaker 1: to have a relationship with Eric, but it's something that happened.
23:56
Speaker 1: And you know, I wrote one letter to him and
24:00
Speaker 1: he wrote back, and I went to visit him in prison.
24:02
Speaker 1: In our relationship developed, and in fact, in one of
24:06
Speaker 1: his letters he had written and said that he had
24:07
Speaker 1: a girlfriend for a couple of years, and I kind
24:10
Speaker 1: of said, it's so sad that he thinks he has
24:12
Speaker 1: a girlfriend. So I understand where the public's view is
24:15
Speaker 1: coming from but um, I do get emotional support from Eric. Um,
24:20
Speaker 1: he's my best friend. You'd be surprised, um, how well
24:24
Speaker 1: you can get to know somebody through letters. He became
24:27
Speaker 1: a really good friend of mine, and then after I
24:30
Speaker 1: met him, things you got more and more intense. That
24:33
Speaker 1: is from NBC's Dateline as they interviewed Tammy Menendez back
24:40
Speaker 1: to Karen Stark, New York psychologist Karen, why would someone
24:45
Speaker 1: want a marriage with Lyle Menindez or Eric Menindez. There
24:51
Speaker 1: are a number of factors, Nancy. If you think about
24:54
Speaker 1: the fact that these brothers became very famous, and even
24:57
Speaker 1: though they were infamous, that appealing to a lot of people.
25:02
Speaker 1: Just that alone. That they're married to someone who is
25:06
Speaker 1: so well known and has been on television, so that's
25:09
Speaker 1: a factor. There's also the factor that they can't have sex,
25:13
Speaker 1: and so if it's somebody who can't be intimate and
25:16
Speaker 1: has attachment issues, this is perfect. They don't ever really
25:20
Speaker 1: have to engage in the physical act. It's also very safe.
25:25
Speaker 1: These women don't have to wonder about whether their husband
25:29
Speaker 1: is cheating on them. Where is he right now? They
25:33
Speaker 1: know exactly where he is and they're safe in terms
25:36
Speaker 1: of not having to be with each other every day,
25:40
Speaker 1: deal with issues that all married couples have to deal with.
25:43
Speaker 1: You know, does the cup to stay in the sink
25:45
Speaker 1: or go in the dishwasher? You know the things that
25:49
Speaker 1: everyone has to deal with living with another person. This
25:53
Speaker 1: is all pretty much perfect in terms of their needs
25:58
Speaker 1: during the visit. There's no just holding hands and you
26:00
Speaker 1: can kiss when you come into the visiting room and
26:02
Speaker 1: when you leave. You know, is she crazy? Is she nuts?
26:06
Speaker 1: You know, I get all that and so um. It
26:09
Speaker 1: has been a very emotional experience. The only one that
26:11
Speaker 1: supports me as my mother and his family is supportive,
26:16
Speaker 1: but other than that, it is very difficult. That is
26:20
Speaker 1: from NBC's Dateline as they interviewed Tammy Menendez. She has
26:29
Speaker 1: married Ary. They've never spent time outside of prison walls,
26:33
Speaker 1: but according to her, that does not limit their love.
26:37
Speaker 1: Karen Stark, let me ask you, what are the benefits
26:43
Speaker 1: of being married to a murderer who is doing life
26:46
Speaker 1: behind bars? Well, if you think of that, at Nancy,
26:49
Speaker 1: she never has to deal with the kinds of things
26:52
Speaker 1: that people normally have to deal within a relationship. So
26:57
Speaker 1: her relationship with Eric can always stay in this best
27:00
Speaker 1: friend mode that she's talking about. It can stay in
27:04
Speaker 1: the early stages when you're first with someone. You're very
27:07
Speaker 1: intoxicated before you actually get down to the business of
27:12
Speaker 1: knowing another person. And it's just a very appealing for
27:18
Speaker 1: some people who can't have normal relationships. This is very
27:22
Speaker 1: appealing and safe. Take a listen to Tammy Menandez speaking
27:27
Speaker 1: now who married Eric Menandez double killer. I'm not a killer.
27:32
Speaker 1: I never was. It's not who I am. But you
27:35
Speaker 1: killed your parents, That's that's true. But I'm not a murderer.
27:39
Speaker 1: It troubles me. But I do know the person that
27:41
Speaker 1: Eric is I and I know his heart, I know
27:44
Speaker 1: his soul, and I do know what happened that night,
27:48
Speaker 1: and I do understand. I believe that with within everybody,
27:53
Speaker 1: um it put in certain certain circumstances, you will, you know,
27:58
Speaker 1: be able to kill somebody. I mean, I do believe
28:00
Speaker 1: that Eric is a very good person. So bottom line,
28:03
Speaker 1: what she's saying is that everybody can be a killer.
28:08
Speaker 1: Karen Smith, take a listen to this nine one one
28:12
Speaker 1: called a night that the Menendez mom and dad we're
28:16
Speaker 1: brutally murdered to Karen Smith forensics expert joining us, Karen,
28:28
Speaker 1: could you describe the murder scene at the Menendez home, Yes,
28:33
Speaker 1: you talk about cold blooded murder. Um. Jose and Kitty
28:38
Speaker 1: Menendez were in their living room. They were relaxing, and
28:42
Speaker 1: the two brothers burst in with a twelve gauge shotgun
28:47
Speaker 1: and Jose was gunned down point blank in the back
28:50
Speaker 1: of his head, making him nearly unrecognizable. Kitty was shot
28:55
Speaker 1: in the leg as she tried to run away. She
28:58
Speaker 1: slipped in her own blood and was gunned down in
29:00
Speaker 1: the arm, chest, in face as she lay helpless on
29:03
Speaker 1: the floor. And something I'd like to point out, these
29:06
Speaker 1: brothers planned the attack. They bought the shotgun in advance
29:09
Speaker 1: with a fake I d but this is a twelve
29:11
Speaker 1: gage shotgun. This isn't a handgun, a revolver. A twelve
29:15
Speaker 1: gage shotgun requires you to rack another round into that
29:20
Speaker 1: shotgun before you can pull the trigger again. So think
29:23
Speaker 1: about that. You fire the gun, you have to rerack it,
29:26
Speaker 1: aim it, fire, rerack it, aim it, and fire. Every
29:30
Speaker 1: single time they pumped around into their own parents. I
29:34
Speaker 1: cannot imagine going into a crime scene more heinous than
29:37
Speaker 1: to Jason notions, veteran defense attorney practicing out of New York,
29:42
Speaker 1: New Jersey and the entire Tri state area. Jason, how,
29:46
Speaker 1: I mean, how could have you ever seen or known
29:50
Speaker 1: of a woman being attracted to somebody already conveyed to
29:54
Speaker 1: behind bars, jailhouse, girl friends and so forth. We've seen them,
29:58
Speaker 1: but normally they were in existence before the murder. Now
30:03
Speaker 1: it's a it's as as Dr Stark, as Karen tells you,
30:07
Speaker 1: is a incredible fascination with the with the disturbed. It's
30:13
Speaker 1: gone on for years. Um, it's a sick phenomenon. I
30:18
Speaker 1: understand the psychology of why people are attracted, but once
30:24
Speaker 1: you've been engaged in such a heinous type of act, uh,
30:28
Speaker 1: it boggles the mind as to why people engage in
30:31
Speaker 1: something like that. Take a listen to this. This is
30:35
Speaker 1: Timmy Menendez talking about her marriage to double kill er
30:39
Speaker 1: Eric Menendez. I never had that before. You realize, with
30:43
Speaker 1: all due respect, that a lot of people think you much.
30:45
Speaker 1: Oh yes, I've heard it before many times. If I
30:48
Speaker 1: just say to you, why, what do you say? UM?
30:51
Speaker 1: My answer to that is I fell in love with
30:53
Speaker 1: him unexpectedly, and it's quite a long journey that sled
30:59
Speaker 1: me to their and now I'm very happy. Have you
31:02
Speaker 1: ever had sex with Eric? No, your marriage has never
31:06
Speaker 1: been consummated. Now when you see Eric that you were
31:10
Speaker 1: allowed to kiss him. We can hog and kiss on
31:12
Speaker 1: the way out and hold hands during the visit, and
31:17
Speaker 1: the holding of the hands during the visage is everything.
31:20
Speaker 1: I can't offer her, most of the things that another
31:24
Speaker 1: husband can in terms of being with her physically and
31:29
Speaker 1: being able to to hold her in that sense. What
31:33
Speaker 1: I can offer her is is unconditional and complete devotion
31:37
Speaker 1: and love. She is everything you are hearing Barbara Walter
31:40
Speaker 1: speaking with Mrs Menandez, and that was Menandez himself on
31:45
Speaker 1: the fund. That's Barbara Walters from ABC. It's beyond anything
31:50
Speaker 1: I can understand. Not the fact that I mean there
31:54
Speaker 1: there are married couples, couples of all sorts all over
31:59
Speaker 1: the world who can't consummate their relationship due to illness,
32:04
Speaker 1: due to UH, someone being paralyzed, due to all sorts
32:09
Speaker 1: of mental or physical issues. There are people separated by distance,
32:15
Speaker 1: thousands of miles apart, that are in love. So cogugal
32:18
Speaker 1: visits are not the be all end all to to
32:21
Speaker 1: true love. To me, the hurdle is getting past the
32:27
Speaker 1: double murders of your mother and father. But the Menendez
32:32
Speaker 1: brothers and Jodi Arius are really the tip of the iceberg.
32:35
Speaker 1: What about Charles Manson? Because I love him, um, and
32:42
Speaker 1: I've somehow, I've got half a brain, Um that I
32:48
Speaker 1: can see that he is the one that knows what's
32:52
Speaker 1: going on. He's the one that that is in the
32:58
Speaker 1: truth whenever nobody else's. And what is it about him
33:06
Speaker 1: compared to other people you've met in your lifetime that
33:08
Speaker 1: makes him so unique and different? Um? Charlie always tells
33:14
Speaker 1: the truth no matter what. There's so many jail house
33:18
Speaker 1: marriages and jailhouse love relationships. I hardly know where to start.
33:23
Speaker 1: But it's like drinking from a fire hydra. There's just
33:25
Speaker 1: too much to take in in a single swallow. Okay,
33:28
Speaker 1: let me go to Charles Manson. I didn't even know
33:31
Speaker 1: he had a love relationship behind bars. Joining me right
33:35
Speaker 1: now is Alan Duke? Alan? Charles Manson had a love
33:39
Speaker 1: life behind bars? Well, yes he did now. Although he
33:43
Speaker 1: was married twice before the Manson murders and his his
33:47
Speaker 1: death sentence, he actually got a marriage license while in prison.
33:52
Speaker 1: More recently, in he got a marriage license with Afton
33:57
Speaker 1: Elaine Burton, and they never actually went through with the ceremony,
34:01
Speaker 1: so they were not legally married. But she was a
34:04
Speaker 1: groupie who moved to the area, knew the prison just
34:08
Speaker 1: to be near him, and would visit him every moment
34:11
Speaker 1: that she could. It turned out that while he said
34:15
Speaker 1: that it wasn't a real love of real relationship, it
34:18
Speaker 1: turned out that she wanted to marry him so she
34:22
Speaker 1: could claim his body after his death and put it
34:25
Speaker 1: in a glass case on display for the world to see.
34:29
Speaker 1: So that's another reason for it behind the bars marriage.
34:33
Speaker 1: The first Mrs Charles Manson was Rosalie Jean Willis, a
34:38
Speaker 1: teenage hospital waitress. They tied the knot back in when
34:44
Speaker 1: Manson was between prison sentences. Okay, that's certainly something to
34:50
Speaker 1: think about. Um, let me think they were married, and
34:56
Speaker 1: then it goes on. Six years later, Manson his cult
35:01
Speaker 1: of groupies the family committed their brutal murders. He ends
35:06
Speaker 1: up behind bars again, this time for the rest of
35:09
Speaker 1: his life. But there were future wives. The woman aft In,
35:14
Speaker 1: Elaine Burton, years old at the time, tells Rolling Stone
35:20
Speaker 1: that she and Manson we're going to get married. She
35:23
Speaker 1: even moved to California to be near him and would
35:26
Speaker 1: regularly visit him for hours and hours and hours. It's
35:31
Speaker 1: so obvious that Charles Manson was real roaded, she tells,
35:34
Speaker 1: seeing and she didn't care what people thought of her.
35:36
Speaker 1: I am Charles Manson's wife, wife. Are you married? The
35:42
Speaker 1: paperwork hasn't gone through yet, but we already consider each
35:46
Speaker 1: other to be a husband and wife. Are you in love? Okay?
35:54
Speaker 1: Why would I marry somebody? People get married for all
35:59
Speaker 1: kinds of different reasons. Why wouldn't people think it crazy?
36:02
Speaker 1: I really don't care. Star says she first discovered Manson
36:07
Speaker 1: at sixteen, drawn to something Manson calls at wa water
36:12
Speaker 1: are there in the water and and live and the
36:16
Speaker 1: RNA and women at stands for air, trees, water and animals.
36:23
Speaker 1: You know that nine hundred redwood tree get cut down
36:25
Speaker 1: every day. Wood trees a thousand years of piece. That's
36:28
Speaker 1: nine hundred thousand years of sunlight you're taking off this planet.
36:32
Speaker 1: The only thing that he's trying to manificate his planting
36:36
Speaker 1: trees and cleaning up there. But after seven years living
36:43
Speaker 1: near Manson's prison, visiting him regularly, Star's main focus has
36:47
Speaker 1: switched to clearing his name. It's just not a true story.
36:51
Speaker 1: It's completely fabricated. Manson has always maintained his innocence and
36:57
Speaker 1: he called Star from prison. But for our interview to
37:01
Speaker 1: stress it again, our all all her water Star is
37:16
Speaker 1: so loyal that when Manson was tossed into solitary confinement,
37:20
Speaker 1: she shaved her head and carved an ex in her forehead.
37:25
Speaker 1: It's a show of support. You're just like when they
37:28
Speaker 1: did it back in v whatever. That was Ted Rowlands
37:32
Speaker 1: on CNN interviewing the alleged Mrs Charles Manson, and of
37:38
Speaker 1: course that was Charles Manson going off on saving the environment.
37:44
Speaker 1: But listen to what happened at the time of the
37:48
Speaker 1: Manson murders. In a scene described by one investigator as
37:52
Speaker 1: reminiscent of a weird religious rite, five persons, including actress
37:56
Speaker 1: Sharon Tate, were found dead at the home of Miss
37:58
Speaker 1: Tape and her husband screamed a reactor, Roman Posky. Miss Tate,
38:02
Speaker 1: who started in Valley of the Dolls, was eight months
38:04
Speaker 1: pregnant and was found in a bikini type nightgown with
38:07
Speaker 1: a rope around. Sounds of Mr La Bianca dying came
38:13
Speaker 1: into the bedroom, horrible guttural sounds. She started calling out
38:19
Speaker 1: to him and yelling for him, and UM, at that moment,
38:28
Speaker 1: for a brief moment, yeah, I realized, you know, these
38:37
Speaker 1: are people that love each other. And then text earned
38:39
Speaker 1: me around and handed me the knife and he said
38:42
Speaker 1: do something because Manson had told him to make sure
38:46
Speaker 1: that all of us got our hands dirty. And UM,
38:53
Speaker 1: I stabbed Mrs la Bianca the lower back about sixteen times,
39:00
Speaker 1: and there was no pity, no mercy. Well were the
39:05
Speaker 1: bodies wound all in one room? No. Two of the
39:08
Speaker 1: bodies were found in the inside the house, one in
39:11
Speaker 1: the vehicle and two on the front lawn. Stephen parents said,
39:16
Speaker 1: please don't kill me, Please don't kill me. I'm on
39:18
Speaker 1: my way out. I won't tell anybody. Just let me live.
39:22
Speaker 1: And Watson shot him four times at point blank range.
39:26
Speaker 1: And that begins the savagery. When the four killers break
39:30
Speaker 1: into the house, they cut through a screen window and
39:34
Speaker 1: sneak in that way. They find wotech for Kowski sleeping
39:38
Speaker 1: on a couch in the living room. Back in the bedrooms,
39:42
Speaker 1: Abigail Folder reading a book in bed, J. C. Bring
39:46
Speaker 1: and Sharon Tate in her bedroom sitting on the bed
39:49
Speaker 1: talking Texas. Watson walked in and he said, I am
39:53
Speaker 1: the devil, and I'm here to do the devil's work.
39:57
Speaker 1: Then Texas, we're going to kill What began to happen
40:01
Speaker 1: as a scuffle started taking place between Tax and J. C.
40:06
Speaker 1: Bren J C. Brin was very protective of Sharon and said, no,
40:12
Speaker 1: you know, she's eight and a half months pregnant. She
40:14
Speaker 1: against it on the floor and Watson then stabbed him,
40:19
Speaker 1: shot him, killing him, and then panneumonium broke loose when
40:25
Speaker 1: there was an attempt to tie everyone up. Eventually, Abigail
40:29
Speaker 1: Folder started to get herself undone and she took off.
40:34
Speaker 1: Abigail Folger, we'll take Frankowski make a break forward out
40:38
Speaker 1: in the lawn. I left and followed her. I ran
40:42
Speaker 1: after her with an upraised knife, and we went out
40:46
Speaker 1: through a back door and I ran her down and
40:50
Speaker 1: I began to stab her. I remember her saying I'm
40:54
Speaker 1: already dead. Abigail Folger ended up getting steps twenty eight times.
41:00
Speaker 1: Watson jumped on Forkowski on the lawn, repeatedly stabbed him
41:04
Speaker 1: and hit him over the head with the gun, but
41:07
Speaker 1: Frikowski ended up getting stabbed fifty one times. Susan Cans
41:13
Speaker 1: stabbed Sharon Tate to death and told her she was
41:15
Speaker 1: going to do it. She talked to the media about
41:18
Speaker 1: killing Sharon Tate. I felt nothing. I felt absolutely nothing
41:22
Speaker 1: for her. Um she begged for her life and for
41:28
Speaker 1: the life of thing. I never told anybody to do
41:31
Speaker 1: anything other than what they wanted to do. So there
41:34
Speaker 1: is proof that even Charles Manson had love behind bars.
41:41
Speaker 1: Let's turn to Yourn Vanderslute. No jail house marriage episode
41:46
Speaker 1: would be complete without that. You're in Vanderslute, as we
41:49
Speaker 1: all know. Murdered Natalie Holloway in Aruba. Natalie Holloway, honor
41:55
Speaker 1: student who goes on a senior school trip and never
41:59
Speaker 1: comes home. She was murdered. He manages to escape free
42:04
Speaker 1: from Aruba when Aruba would not proceed with murder charges
42:07
Speaker 1: and murder another young woman, Stephanie Tassiana Flores. He goes
42:12
Speaker 1: to jail for that murder, a brutal murder where he
42:16
Speaker 1: attacks and kills her their hotel room. His hotel room
42:20
Speaker 1: covered in blood. As she's lying there dead in the floor,
42:24
Speaker 1: he goes and gets coffee in Danish and eats it
42:26
Speaker 1: beside her dead cold body. Well, he goes to jail
42:30
Speaker 1: for that, but behind bars, he manages to get married
42:33
Speaker 1: and not only that, have a baby. What happened? Alan?
42:37
Speaker 1: Do you he married twenty five year old laid Up Figaroa,
42:42
Speaker 1: who was a trainee accountant in Peru, and apparently they
42:46
Speaker 1: were having a relationship behind bars because she ended up
42:50
Speaker 1: getting pregnant and they got married. The baby was born
42:54
Speaker 1: in that baby is named Dues. She named after vendor
43:00
Speaker 1: Slut's grandmother. I'm sure the grandmother would be so proud.
43:04
Speaker 1: We're talking about two time killer yourn Vanderslout becoming a
43:08
Speaker 1: father after his wife gives birth to a baby girl.
43:12
Speaker 1: The baby was born in Lima, named Dushy by his
43:16
Speaker 1: wife after yourn Vanderslut's grandmother. He's serving a twenty eight
43:21
Speaker 1: year prison sentence for killing a business student that he
43:24
Speaker 1: meets in a casino. But my question is how does
43:28
Speaker 1: he find love behind bars? Jason Oceans, I know you
43:35
Speaker 1: recall the Yourn vander Slute case. What can you tell
43:41
Speaker 1: us about the disappearance and death of Natalie Holloway? Jason, Well,
43:46
Speaker 1: the student was Obama was down there on a school
43:52
Speaker 1: trip and was Yourn and some of his friends and
44:00
Speaker 1: body was never discovered, but everything pointed to him. Uh,
44:05
Speaker 1: so it gained national coverage. Uh. And then he escaped
44:11
Speaker 1: and seemingly admitted it at at some point, though he
44:14
Speaker 1: was never prosecuted for it. But and then there was Stephanie,
44:20
Speaker 1: that's right. And then and then you know, meets her
44:22
Speaker 1: in the you know, a hotel, and you know, brutally
44:26
Speaker 1: murdered her. So and convicted, as you said, serving time.
44:30
Speaker 1: And you know what's interesting about that, Jason otions is
44:32
Speaker 1: that reportedly the argument that brought on the murder is
44:38
Speaker 1: she was looking at her iPad or a computer and goes, hey, wait,
44:42
Speaker 1: are you the yourn Vanderslute that is connected to Natalie
44:46
Speaker 1: Holloway and he murders her. Now believe it or not,
44:50
Speaker 1: Jason Oceans, Now, hold on, Jason, you're the veteran defense lawyer.
44:54
Speaker 1: I need a shrink on this. Karen Stark New York's psychologists.
44:58
Speaker 1: According to Joran Vanderslout's wife, she says, vander Slute is
45:03
Speaker 1: quote gentle, sensitive kind and no monster. Help me, Karen, Oh,
45:09
Speaker 1: that's not a surprise. We should know that by now, Nancy.
45:13
Speaker 1: He's a sociopath. He can come up with any personality
45:16
Speaker 1: he desires. And so that's one of the things that
45:21
Speaker 1: happens is women like this fall for the guy and
45:24
Speaker 1: believe that he is really a gentle soul, that he's
45:28
Speaker 1: been either like it just was. The Menendez brothers, you
45:32
Speaker 1: know that there's a reason why this happened to them.
45:36
Speaker 1: They're kind of rescuing these guys and convinced themselves that
45:41
Speaker 1: there's nothing wrong with them. And the men helped because
45:45
Speaker 1: they can come across beautifully and act like they are
45:50
Speaker 1: perfectly fine and loving and woo you and get you
45:55
Speaker 1: very excited about the idea of being with them. You know,
45:59
Speaker 1: we've been taking You'll look at marriage and love that
46:03
Speaker 1: convicted killers find behind bars in a and kind of
46:07
Speaker 1: an odd way, the way you look at a spider
46:10
Speaker 1: in a cage. But let's think about how the victims
46:14
Speaker 1: families feel about this. The friends and family of the
46:19
Speaker 1: Menendez the friends and family of Natalie Holloway and Stephanie
46:24
Speaker 1: Tasciana Flores, and the Tate family and the Bianca families.
46:29
Speaker 1: How do they feel about this? The family of Travis Alexander.
46:35
Speaker 1: The way that even from behind bars, these killers are
46:40
Speaker 1: manipulating the feelings and the lives of others. Nancy Grace
46:46
Speaker 1: Crime Stories signing off goodbye friend,