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John Kiriakou (2025) - Enhanced Interrogation and CIA Whistleblowing · The Joe Rogan Recap

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  Welcome to the Joe Rogan recap. And welcome listeners.
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  Today we're doing a deep dive that really pulls back the
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  curtain on almost 2 decades of secret history within the CIA.
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  Our source material is centered around the experiences of John
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  Kiriakou, who is a pretty high-ranking counterterrorism
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  officer there. That's right.
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  And this isn't just, you know, an intelligence memoir.
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  It's frankly a chilling look at how unaccountable government
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  power operates. We're basically tracking
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  Kiriakou's path from these intense counterterrorism OPS to
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  that really pivotal moment where he refused to get involved with
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  the CI US torture program. Our mission here is to unpack
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  the frankly incredible personal price he paid for blowing the
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  whistle and what his story tells us about the the systemic nature
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  of what some call the American Deep State.
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  Yeah, We'll synthesize the whole story for you.
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  We'll show that progression, you know, from those targeted
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  operations through the moral dilemma of these enhanced
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  interrogation techniques and then ultimately the, well, the
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  stunning double standard of justice that saw the messenger
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  jailed for exposing the crime itself.
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  OK, so let's set the scene a bit.
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  The world Kiriakou is operating in, it was incredibly intense.
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  He talks about his posting in Athens, Greece.
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  Why was Athens such a a critical spot for US security back then?
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  Oh, the security situation was extreme.
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  I mean, the US was spending more on security in Athens than
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  literally anywhere else in the world at that time, more than
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  Beirut even. Wow.
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  Yeah. Because you had this convergence
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  of threats. You had these dangerous local
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  anti American groups like the revolutionary organization 17 No
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  November. They'd actually assassinated the
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  CIA station chief there before, right.
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  And on top of that, you had active international terrorist
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  groups, Abu Nidal, various Libyan factions.
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  It was a a hotbed. Sounds like a real geopolitical
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  pressure cooker. And that intensity, it just
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  ratcheted up after 911, didn't it?
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  Absolutely. Fast forward to 2002.
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  Pakistan Kiriakou's heading counterterrorism operations
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  right in the middle of this intense manhunt for guys like
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  bin Laden. Abu Zubaydah.
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  Exactly. It was the six week super high
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  stress chase Kiriakou described. You know, bursting into
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  compounds and finding like 1/2 eaten sandwich or a cigarette
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  still burning. Wow, some really close calls.
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  Constantly right on their heels, and this whole effort eventually
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  leads to the capture of Abu Zubaydah.
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  But this is where the story really pivots dramatically.
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  Yeah, he gets back to headquarters May 2002, and the
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  way official state torture gets introduced is just bizarrely
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  casual. He's literally standing in the
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  CIA cafeteria line getting a sandwich, and a senior officer
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  just asks him if he wants to get certified in something called
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  enhanced interrogation techniques.
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  Eits, he'd never even heard the term.
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  And that casualness is key, isn't it?
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  The officer apparently just said we're going to start getting
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  rough with these guys. Kyrie Ku, you know, immediately
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  saw the huge ethical red flags. He went to talk to a very senior
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  colleague looking for advice. What did the colleague tell him?
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  The advice was, well, it was chillingly accurate in
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  hindsight, this peer told him straight up.
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  First of all, let's call a spade a spade.
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  This is a torture program. Right, no mincing words.
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  None. And then came the warning.
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  Somebody's going to be a cowboy. They're going to go overboard.
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  They're going to kill a prisoner.
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  When that happens, somebody's going to go to prison.
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  Do you want to go to prison? And that was it.
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  That was the line in the sand for Kiriakou.
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  He immediately went to the center director, told him he had
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  a profound moral, ethical problem with this program.
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  He believed it was just fundamentally illegal.
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  The professional cost instant and steep.
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  I mean, this guy had just captured who they thought at the
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  time was the number three in al Qaeda.
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  Yeah, a huge success. Huge and he gets passed over for
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  promotion. And the official reason they
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  gave a shocking lack of commitment to counterterrorism.
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  It's unbelievable. And here's the detail that
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  really gets me. Out of 14 people asked to get
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  trained in Eits, Kiriak was the only one who said no.
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  Just one, Just one. He found out pretty quickly his
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  colleagues were calling him the human rights guy behind his
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  back, which in that kind of environment was basically career
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  suicide. So let's dig into why he drew
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  that line. Kiriakou actually detailed the
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  techniques involved. He broke them down.
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  There were, you know, non torturous methods like lapel
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  grab or a belly slap and an intention slap.
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  Intense, sure, but not designed to cause lasting physical harm.
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  But the program quickly moved into what anyone would recognize
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  as torture. Waterboarding the cold cell.
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  Severe sleep deprivation. That cold cell technique it it
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  sounds absolutely medieval. You're saying prisoners were
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  strip naked, chained to an eye bolt in the ceiling so they
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  couldn't even sit or rest? That's right.
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  Couldn't sit, couldn't kneel, couldn't rest.
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  The cells chilled down to 50°F, about 10 Celsius raising, and
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  then every hour they drenched them with ice water.
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  And the crucial, horrifying part about the cold cell Prisoners
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  died from hypothermia using this technique.
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  Died. Initially, there weren't even
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  protocols to stop the deaths. When they finally did introduce
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  some, it included having a doctor present.
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  OK, that sounds slightly better maybe.
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  Well, often only to revive a prisoner if their hearts
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  stopped, like what happened with Abu Zubaydah during
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  waterboarding. Just.
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  And this is a quote so he could be tortured more.
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  The goal wasn't always intelligence.
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  Sometimes it felt like punishment.
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  And the sleep deprivation? Just as brutal.
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  They were authorized to keep prisoners awake for up to 12
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  days. 12 days chained to the ceiling, usually blasted with
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  industrial strength lights. Death metal music cranked up to,
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  you know, volume 11. The idea was if they collapse
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  from exhaustion, the chains would literally risk pulling
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  their arms out of their sockets. It was designed for maximum
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  misery. This just leads to the big
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  question. Did any of this actually work?
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  That's the critical systemic point here.
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  Yeah. The sources really highlight the
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  stark contrast between the CIA's approach with Eits, which
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  largely failed, and the FBI's earlier success.
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  FBI agent Ali Soufan used classic investigative methods,
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  building rapport, offering coffee oranges, letting the
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  prisoner write a letter to his mother.
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  Basic human decency, essentially.
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  Right. And that approach, it worked.
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  It yielded high, really actionable intelligence.
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  It directly led to mapping out Al Qaeda structure, identifying
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  Intar as Khalid Sheikh Mohammed KSM, a major breakthrough.
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  So the humane approach got results.
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  Real intelligence. Exactly.
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  But despite this clear success, the CIA got control back in
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  August 2002. And what did they do?
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  Immediately started torturing Abu Zubaydah.
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  And what happened? He climbed up, went silent.
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  The torture silenced him completely after the FBI's
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  report had gotten him talking. It makes no sense from an
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  intelligence perspective. Well, it seems like the desire
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  for revenge after 911 may be the worst intelligence failure in
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  U.S. history, combined with a huge financial investment just
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  steamrolled everything else. The CIA had already paid the
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  contractor psychologist who designed this program $108
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  million. $108 million. Yeah, so there was this massive
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  financial and, frankly, institutional pressure to use
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  these techniques, even though the FBI had already shown they
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  weren't effective and might even be counterproductive.
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  That institutional momentum, that need to justify the
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  program. That's why Kiriakou speaking out
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  with such a bombshell, wasn't it?
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  Absolutely. He waited, though he didn't go
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  public until December 2007. It was after President Bush went
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  on TV and explicitly denied the CIA was torturing people.
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  Bush said. We do not torture.
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  And Kiriakou knew that was false.
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  He knew it was absolutely false. He felt he had no choice but to
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  correct the record, to expose the lie.
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  So he went to ABC News and he made those three key points.
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  Right. One, the CIA was torturing. 2 it
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  was official U.S. government policy.
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  Three, it was personally approved by the President.
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  Boom, that must have sent shock waves.
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  Instantly, within 24 hours, the CIA filed A CRAMS report against
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  him with the FBI. But here's a twist.
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  The FBI investigated and declined to prosecute.
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  Why? Their reasoning, according to
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  the source, was pretty sound. Torture is a crime, and it's
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  illegal to classify information about a crime specifically to
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  hide it from the American people.
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  OK, so case closed then. Justice prevails.
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  You think so, right? Absolutely not.
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  This is where high level politics and personal vendettas
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  seem to come into play. John Brennan, who apparently had
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  this long running personal and professional beef with Kiriakou?
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  OK, he gets appointed Deputy National Security Advisor, and
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  the sources suggest Brennan use that new clout.
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  He reportedly sent a memo to the new attorney General, Eric
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  Holder, basically demanding Kiriakou be charged with
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  espionage. Espionage for revealing torture.
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  Exactly when Holder's people initially pushed back, Brennan
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  apparently insisted charge him anyway and make him defend
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  himself. Wow, the source material delves
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  into that Brennan Kiriakou history.
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  Yeah, it traces the animosity back years, mentions an incident
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  where Brennan was nearly fired, but apparently used his
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  connections to George Tenet to not only survive it climb the
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  ranks, it suggests this rivalry festered and Kiriakou exposing
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  an illegal program became a target for political and legal
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  payback. And this leads to that
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  terrifying double standard in the justice system.
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  It really does. The source brings up the case of
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  Sharon's Granage. She was ACIA secretary who gave
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  the names of CIA officers and sources to her level who is
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  working for Ghanian Intelligence.
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  And people died because of that. Yes, that information LED
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  directly to executions. Her sentence?
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  Nine months. Nine months for getting people
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  killed and Kiriakou. Kiriakou, for exposing an
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  illegal state sanctioned torture program, faced 45 years in
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  prison. He ultimately served 23 months
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  after a plea deal. That disparity is just
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  staggering. Why did he take a plea deal if
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  the FBI initially declined? Well, his lawyers apparently
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  advised him that getting a fair trial in the Eastern District of
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  Virginia was basically impossible.
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  The jury pool there is heavily skewed with people tied to the
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  intelligence community or military contractors.
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  They told him he didn't have a prayer.
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  So a compromised jury pool forced his hand.
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  Seems that way. And even after the plea, the
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  source suggests the vendetta wasn't over.
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  They tried to deny him minimum security, sent him to a low
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  medium facility instead, allegedly because Brennan told
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  officials to make it as difficult as possible since the
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  sentence was relatively short. This whole ordeal perfectly
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  illustrates what Kiriakou and the sources talk about as the
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  deep state, doesn't it? Exactly.
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  It's defined as this unelected federal bureaucracy, career
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  officials in agencies like the CIAFBI, State Department who
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  outlast presidents. They have their own power
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  structures, their own agendas. And they believe they can just
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  wait out elected officials. They make no secret of it,
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  according to the source, they think they can outweigh any
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  president if a president issues a mandate.
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  They don't like they just slow roll it, drag their feet until
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  that president is gone, preserving their own status quo.
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  And sometimes this power is allegedly used more
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  aggressively, the sources mentioned claims of law
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  enforcement actually setting people up.
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  Yeah, the material brings up several concerning examples
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  where it's alleged law enforcement manufactured
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  criminal cases, possibly to advance careers or agendas.
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  It mentions the Route 82 bridge plot where an informant
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  apparently came up with the whole idea.
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  The Governor Whitmer kidnapping plot where reports claimed most
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  of the so-called conspirators were actually working with the
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  FBI. And the January 6th claims?
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  And claims reported in the source material that hundreds of
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  FBI agents might have been involved as provocateurs during
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  the January 6th events at the Capitol.
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  Now we have to be clear, these are claims reported in the
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  source material regarding potential systemic overreach.
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  We're just reporting what's in the source.
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  Absolutely. Impartial reporting is key.
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  But this kind of darkness, this potential for abuse, it isn't
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  entirely new. There's a history here.
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  Kiriakou brings up MK Ultra. Ah.
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  Yes, the infamous CIA mind control experiment.
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  Right drug experiments dosing unsuspecting American citizens
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  with LSD in these agency safe houses as part of Operation
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  Midnight Climax. Just unbelievable stuff.
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  And we don't even know the full extent, do we?
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  Because most of the documents were destroyed.
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  That's right, only about 20% of the MK Ultra files reportedly
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  survived the destruction order. So much of what they learned or
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  did is lost to history. But let's bring it to the modern
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  day. Something else that stands out
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  is that change to the NDAA, the National Defense Authorization
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  Act, back in 2015. Yeah, that's a really alarming
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  one. That change essentially
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  legalized the US government creating and distributing
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  propaganda aimed at American citizens domestically.
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  How did that even happen? It started, ironically, with a
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  seemingly small technical issue about Radio TV Marty AUS
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  government station broadcasting into Cuba.
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  OK, but instead of just fixing that specific localized
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  broadcast problem, they changed the law broadly.
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  It basically opened the door for the government to produce and
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  spread almost any propaganda it wants right here at home.
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  Which raises a huge question. Who benefits when the lines
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  blur, when you can't necessarily trust if the information we're
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  seeing, even from seemingly official sources, might actually
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  be government propaganda? Exactly.
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  It erodes trust fundamentally. So after everything Kiriyakou
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  went through the prison time, the accusations, was he ever
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  actually vindicated? He was in a major way.
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  The Senate torture report eventually came out, and it
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  verified everything he had said, every key detail.
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  Senator John McCain even publicly stated that the
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  American people wouldn't have known about the torture program
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  without Kiriakou's courage. Vindication on paper then, but
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  what about the personal cost? Did things get better for him?
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  Not really, no. The personal cost continues to
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  this day. He's bankrupt, he lost his
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  government pension due to some bureaucratic maneuvering, and
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  he's effectively unemployable. Unemployable after a career like
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  that. The sources cite rejections from
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  places like McDonald's, Uber, Target, all because he has a
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  felony conviction, the conviction he got for telling
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  the truth about torture. That's just brutal.
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  Is he still fighting? He is.
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  He's fighting for a presidential pardon and he actually has
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  support from across the political spectrum.
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  Figures like John Ratcliffe, Tucker Carlson have backed his
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  case. He also made an interesting
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  point about accountability and foreign influence, highlighting
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  AI Pack the American Israel Public Affairs Committee.
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  What about? AI Pack.
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  He noted they're considered the gold standard of lobbying groups
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  in DC, Incredibly powerful, yet somehow they aren't required to
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  register as a foreign agent with the Justice Department.
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  Kiriakou himself had to register as a foreign agent just for
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  taking a contract with the Chamber of Commerce in Abu
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  Dhabi. It points to a real disparity in
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  how those rules are applied. Yeah, that does seem like a
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  stark contrast. Before we wrap up, there was
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  that anecdote right before he went to prison.
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  Oh yeah. That text message appear someone
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  described as a very close colleague of John Brennan texted
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  Kiriakou don't drop the soap, followed by a laughing emoji
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  just. Incredibly callous.
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  How did he even respond to that? Kiriakou said he took a moment,
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  gathered himself and texted back.
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  I'm on the right side of history and you are not, he said.
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  In that moment, despite everything, he felt this
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  internal peace, knowing he stood for something moral against a
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  powerful lie. Wow.
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  So it's clear from all this that these internal political games,
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  these powerful bureaucracies, they're very focused on self
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  preservation, on infighting right here within the US.
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  What does this mean for you, the listener trying to make sense of
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  the world? Well, if you broaden the lens,
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  look at the geopolitical analysis Kiriakou touched on.
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  He talked about China's long term strategy that they're not
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  primarily trying to win through massive military spending like
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  the US, you know, with its 190 bases scattered globally.
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  Right. So what is their focus?
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  It's internal investing heavily inside China, building hyper
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  speed trains, world class infrastructure, schools,
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  hospitals, strengthening their own society.
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  First building a. Strong unified state from
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  within. Precisely.
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  And then they use their economic power and highly sophisticated
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  digital influence operations. We're talking bots targeted
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  propaganda actively sowing division to destabilize
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  potential rivals, especially the US.
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  They essentially pour fuel on the fires of the arguments that
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  distrust the divisions we already see playing out online
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  and in our politics everyday. So they wait for us to weaken
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  ourselves from the inside. In essence, yeah, they wait for
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  the United States to potentially self destruct under the weight
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  of its own internal conflicts and dysfunction.
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  So given these revelations about unaccountable power, about these
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  internal vendettas like Kiriakou faced, and knowing how external
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  forces exploit our divisions, the final thought we want to
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  leave you with is this. Are we as a society too
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  distracted by these manufactured internal conflicts, by the drama
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  of our own deep state battles, to even recognize the real,
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  patient, long term threat that might just be waiting for us to
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  collapse under our own weight?