Latest / WOC and Allies: Business and Career Realtalk with Elaine Lou Cartas / 25. Coaching vs. Therapy: Which One Do You Need? with Dr. Nazanin Moali

Transcript

25. Coaching vs. Therapy: Which One Do You Need? with Dr. Nazanin Moali · WOC and Allies: Business and Career Realtalk with Elaine Lou Cartas

0:00
SPEAKER_01: So with everything going on in the world, uh I don't know about you, but I feel so grateful for all the resources we have, right?
0:10
SPEAKER_01: And two of the big things that thankfully is being more accepted in today's society is coaching and therapy.
0:18
SPEAKER_01: But for some of us, we probably don't even know the difference.
0:22
SPEAKER_01: What is the difference between coaching and therapy?
0:25
SPEAKER_01: Maybe you're so self-aware that you know you're stuck, but which one to go to?
0:33
SPEAKER_01: Or do I need both a coach and therapist?
0:37
SPEAKER_01: And in all transparency and vulnerability, I have both a coach and a therapist.
0:45
SPEAKER_01: And I'm gonna share with all of you.
0:47
SPEAKER_01: As a coach, and in my opinion, my personal experience as a woman of color, first-gen immigrant, as a millennial, I think therapy is more important than coaching.
1:00
SPEAKER_01: And yes, this is a coach that is saying that.
1:04
SPEAKER_01: And we'll go deeper in this episode about why I'm gonna get vulnerable with you, why I'm back in therapy.
1:12
SPEAKER_01: And I also want to share I am not a licensed therapist.
1:16
SPEAKER_01: However, in this episode, I am joined by my friend who is a licensed psychologist and a sex therapist, Dr.
1:25
SPEAKER_01: Nazanin Muali, where we delve deeper between what are the two differences.
1:33
SPEAKER_01: And if you're a service provider, how do you make sure you hold an ethical and safe space for your clients, acknowledging that you're not a therapist?
1:42
SPEAKER_01: All right, let's drop a beat.
2:13
SPEAKER_01: Because our ancestors sacrificed so much so we could have this life of choice.
2:18
SPEAKER_01: Now, grab your coffee, tea, andor boba, and let's call your dreams to create your legacy.
2:28
SPEAKER_01: Hey legacy makers.
2:30
SPEAKER_01: So we're what in almost two years in this pandemic?
2:35
SPEAKER_01: Right and I do not need to list everything that's been happening around the world, and that's outside of our personal life, right?
2:43
SPEAKER_01: Then there's our personal life and professional life, and it's a lot.
2:46
SPEAKER_01: And that is why I have both my own therapists and I have my own coaches.
2:52
SPEAKER_01: And as I've gone through my own healing, I've honestly have been irritated in the coaching world, the online world, where they think they could help heal you in certain things, but that's why you go to a therapist who has been trained in all of this stuff, which is why I have my friend, Dr.
3:11
SPEAKER_01: Naznien Mwali.
3:13
SPEAKER_01: Yes, a real psychologist went through all the trainings and spent all the money on the schooling here to talk about the difference between coaching and therapy.
3:22
SPEAKER_01: And also, fun fact, also helps with your sexual life too.
3:28
SPEAKER_01: So hopefully you have tips on that.
3:30
SPEAKER_01: But this conversation's really geared on understanding the difference between coaching and therapy, identifying which one's important over the other, and why, if you do feel called to, why it's important to seek out a therapist as opposed to coach when you're going through things.
3:44
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, Dr.
3:46
SPEAKER_01: Mwali, can you please share with us like everything you do?
3:50
SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you so much for inviting me, Elaine.
3:52
SPEAKER_00: I was just sharing with you how much I love your podcast.
3:55
SPEAKER_00: You're doing great work.
3:56
SPEAKER_00: And as a woman of color, your content resonates with me.
4:00
SPEAKER_00: I'm a clinical psychologist.
4:02
SPEAKER_00: My sub-specialty is sex therapy.
4:05
SPEAKER_00: And I have a private practice in LA, and I also have a podcast called Sexology.
4:10
SPEAKER_00: And similar to what you mentioned, I've been in therapy most of my life, which I think is a fantastic resource.
4:17
SPEAKER_00: And depending on the projects I'm working on, I've hired coaches.
4:20
SPEAKER_00: So I think definitely both can be a tremendous tool for people.
4:25
SPEAKER_00: It depends on what they're looking for.
4:27
SPEAKER_00: Why did you become a therapist?
4:29
SPEAKER_01: How did you get into and the and why you felt the training was so important for you?
4:35
SPEAKER_00: Well, I grew up with kind of in our family, we have a number of serious mental health challenges.
4:40
SPEAKER_00: I grew up being exposed to kind of like my mom had very deep depression.
4:45
SPEAKER_00: I grew up in Iran, and my mom was a writer.
4:49
SPEAKER_00: And after the Islamic revolution, that's really impacted her identity, her level of being able to do her work.
4:56
SPEAKER_00: So she got very depressed.
4:57
SPEAKER_00: Like I think, like what I remember from the first six, seven years of my life, my mom was very, very depressed.
5:05
SPEAKER_00: And that was very challenging.
5:07
SPEAKER_00: And again, my grandmother, she had an acute OCD, and I think all of those experiences taught me that human suffering worth paying attention to.
5:17
SPEAKER_00: I think like psychological pain can be as yes challenging as other types of challenges.
5:23
SPEAKER_01: I loved what you said.
5:25
SPEAKER_01: Human suffering is worth paying attention to.
5:28
SPEAKER_01: And similar to you, there is a history of mental health in my own family.
5:33
SPEAKER_01: My grandmother was diagnosed with schizophrenia and bipolar, also went through depression because her husband passed away.
5:41
SPEAKER_01: Even but that happened before I was born.
5:45
SPEAKER_01: So even seeing how she was treated, and I unfortunately look at him like, like I wasn't educated on it, right?
5:53
SPEAKER_01: I was a kid.
5:54
SPEAKER_01: And now that and I actually went to get my bachelor's in psychology, like, oh gosh, I wish I was able to be there for her after being educated about this stuff and being more accepted into it.
6:05
SPEAKER_01: Also, I just want to compliment you because doing mental health and being a woman of color, it's not, it's not something that we were taught that you could have a great job in.
6:16
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
6:17
SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for saying that.
6:18
SPEAKER_00: And I think having those experiences of seeing how our kind of parents, grandparents were treated due to something that was outside their control can be very impactful.
6:29
SPEAKER_00: I remember my grandmother, she was very successful entrepreneurial person.
6:33
SPEAKER_00: She had she built her business.
6:36
SPEAKER_00: And while she was struggling with OCD, and when she was checking and rechecking and doing all of those OCD behaviors, people were thinking that's a character flaw.
6:45
SPEAKER_00: There was something wrong with her.
6:46
SPEAKER_00: And they were looking down on her.
6:48
SPEAKER_00: But now reflecting back on that as a woman that's that's within the field, it makes me sad.
6:54
SPEAKER_00: Because again, if that was something that she needed support with, it wasn't something that like she she was broken or was a character flaw.
7:01
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
7:02
SPEAKER_01: So can you tell our listeners who's probably listening to this, right?
7:04
SPEAKER_01: They're like, I know it's wrong with me, right?
7:06
SPEAKER_01: Like, I'm a perfectionist, I'm a control freak.
7:09
SPEAKER_01: This is how I grew up.
7:10
SPEAKER_01: I just, I just need to tell tell myself what I need to do, just I could take care of it.
7:15
SPEAKER_01: I don't need help.
7:16
SPEAKER_01: Just to alleviate it, because I think people beat themselves down.
7:19
SPEAKER_01: And I say that for me.
7:20
SPEAKER_01: This is based off my personal experience.
7:22
SPEAKER_01: Like, God, why can't I just fix this?
7:24
SPEAKER_01: I know what's wrong with me.
7:25
SPEAKER_01: So, why is it helpful to seek out mental health and giving people grace why they can't heal from themselves and the past trauma that wasn't even theirs?
7:37
SPEAKER_00: Such a great and important topic.
7:39
SPEAKER_00: I think first thing is that I tell people like sometimes the kind of like challenging, the unhelpful behavior that you're doing right now, once it was serving you.
7:51
SPEAKER_00: So I think it's important to know that.
7:54
SPEAKER_00: And knowing that back then, for many of my clients, they were doing their best.
7:57
SPEAKER_00: Whatever coping strategy they had, they were doing their best.
8:00
SPEAKER_00: And if you have done your best and things are not working, things are not changing, you're not broken.
8:06
SPEAKER_00: There is an entire field of psychology that's been kind of like years and years of research that develops strategies that can help you to get out of this.
8:15
SPEAKER_00: And again, it's not, didn't develop overnight.
8:18
SPEAKER_00: It's been the kind of result of many years of research.
8:21
SPEAKER_00: So it's just a matter of getting connected with the right resources.
8:25
SPEAKER_00: I believe that recovery for any kind of mental health challenges, it's possible.
8:29
SPEAKER_00: It's just a matter of having access to a right kind of help.
8:32
SPEAKER_01: And why therapy for those that are listening right now?
8:36
SPEAKER_01: Why is that an important thing to look into as opposed to other modalities?
8:40
SPEAKER_01: Because I will be honest, I've done like I've had my spiritual healers and I believe in spirituality.
8:47
SPEAKER_01: I have like my Reiki healers and all of that.
8:49
SPEAKER_01: But I will say the thing that has helped me so much to heal from my past that I'm even going through right now is going through therapy specifically with trauma.
8:58
SPEAKER_01: And I do EMDR therapy, which has just changed the neuropathways because all the trauma occurs in the brain, and knowing you're not responsible for it.
9:08
SPEAKER_01: So, why is it important to have someone who is educated like you?
9:12
SPEAKER_00: Well, Elaine, I think you hit that on the head when you said that.
9:16
SPEAKER_00: Kind of it's a big part of it is rewiring your brain.
9:20
SPEAKER_00: Like that's why when people think about, okay, I went to one session of therapy and didn't work, then it's not about that.
9:25
SPEAKER_00: It's going on this journey of kind of like working with someone that they're using this research-based evidence approach that's been shown that helps with the challenge that you have.
9:36
SPEAKER_00: And learning the tools and strategies part of it, but also processing peace is so important because part of what's struggling, like many people struggle with even with trauma, is the stories that we develop because of our experiences.
9:53
SPEAKER_00: And sometimes we don't even have awareness about that.
9:56
SPEAKER_00: There are stored in our body, kind of like going through this journey, it helps us to identify what are these core beliefs, what are these limiting beliefs.
10:05
SPEAKER_00: And meanwhile, doing this work in front of someone that they have their right skills and training and help you to process these things will help you long term to rewire your brain and changes your internal kind of worldview on things.
10:19
SPEAKER_00: That again, it's more of a longer-term work, but it is very effective if it's the right fit.
10:24
SPEAKER_00: And that's something that I've experienced coming from challenges that I had.
10:28
SPEAKER_00: That therapy has been a wonderful tool for me personally.
10:31
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, what you said earlier, you're saying people have the coping mechanisms, right?
10:36
SPEAKER_01: Like, okay, I feel like this, I need to feel this, right?
10:40
SPEAKER_01: Sad or happy.
10:41
SPEAKER_01: And actually, I find it as a gift.
10:43
SPEAKER_01: And there's nothing wrong when it is a low vibe emotion.
10:48
SPEAKER_01: You know you're there.
10:49
SPEAKER_01: But unfortunately, there's so much toxic positivity.
10:52
SPEAKER_01: Like, okay, how do I feel better?
10:54
SPEAKER_01: Let me go drink, let me do drugs, let me just go do something situational.
10:58
SPEAKER_01: And it's coping, but it's a band-aid.
11:01
SPEAKER_01: And I know we live in such an Amazon prime world where it's like, let me fix it right away.
11:06
SPEAKER_01: Is there a magic pill?
11:08
SPEAKER_01: But it's really processing it.
11:10
SPEAKER_01: And I do not mind sharing my trauma, but even the therapy that I've gone through, it's not reliving, by the way, the memory, it's understanding the memory, like subconsciously.
11:22
SPEAKER_01: And please correct me, you are the expert here.
11:24
SPEAKER_01: So I'm just sharing this as my experience as a patient or client.
11:30
SPEAKER_01: And I identified like at this young age, this memory.
11:35
SPEAKER_01: And it was with another person realizing I wasn't enough.
11:40
SPEAKER_01: That was the phrase I said, I'm not enough.
11:43
SPEAKER_01: And that memory at a young age, at seven years old, resulted in me being a perfectionist, a control freak, attracting codependent relationships.
11:52
SPEAKER_01: And even though I was aware of this, I didn't really like heal, heal.
11:57
SPEAKER_01: And so I said I started really processing the memory.
12:00
SPEAKER_01: And even like being so aware of the trigger points, like, okay, this is coming from here.
12:06
SPEAKER_01: Knowing that you can heal from it, it becomes easier.
12:10
SPEAKER_01: It's interesting because even when I see old friends, like high school friends or college friends, they're like, oh wow, you're not like that crazy woo-girl that that I knew that always party.
12:23
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, it's called therapy.
12:24
SPEAKER_01: That's what happened.
12:26
SPEAKER_01: But anything you wanted to add to that as I shared my experience?
12:30
SPEAKER_00: Well, I think it's very important for people to talk about their experiences of going to therapy and normalizing it.
12:37
SPEAKER_00: Because what people think is when you go to therapy, therapy is for people that are crazy.
12:42
SPEAKER_00: Like if you're a well-adjusted person, you're not going to therapy.
12:45
SPEAKER_00: But hearing your story that you're a successful woman, I'm in the field talking about going to therapy, it can tell people that uh it can be a form of consultation you're going to.
12:55
SPEAKER_00: There's like successful people have consultant.
12:59
SPEAKER_00: And I think the other point that you brought up that was excellent, it's not relieving it.
13:03
SPEAKER_00: That's why I say that actually repeating your trauma with someone that's not skilled can be dangerous, right?
13:11
SPEAKER_00: Like whenever you're leaving that experience with someone that's not skilled, but they don't have that tool, a school, a skill set and tool can make it more painful for you.
13:21
SPEAKER_00: So I'd love that you mentioned that as well.
13:23
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, in all transparency, I'm actually applying to go get my own certification for coaching.
13:30
SPEAKER_01: I've been doing this for five years.
13:31
SPEAKER_01: It's kind of like therapy.
13:32
SPEAKER_01: Therapy is a new field.
13:33
SPEAKER_01: I think that when things started being regulated, it was probably what, 20 years ago.
13:37
SPEAKER_01: So therapy is still fairly brand new.
13:39
SPEAKER_01: And I think in the coaching industry, it's different, it's it's very new, but anyone could call themselves a coach.
13:44
SPEAKER_01: But I've been in spaces where it has not been safe.
13:48
SPEAKER_01: Like, I remember one coach told someone, a peer of mine, like, you've done so much healing, you don't need to keep doing healing, just go for it.
13:57
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, that was just not appropriate.
13:59
SPEAKER_01: And I am not a licensed therapist, but I do know if you are healing, continue focusing on that.
14:07
SPEAKER_01: And only you, you as an individual, can make a decision when you don't need to continue.
14:13
SPEAKER_01: And being okay, kind of like a car, like maintenance, right?
14:16
SPEAKER_01: Changing the oil.
14:17
SPEAKER_01: You do that so often when you need to, and you make that choice, no one else, and there's judgment.
14:23
SPEAKER_01: And for those that don't know the difference, like therapy is really working on everything from the past, right?
14:28
SPEAKER_01: And the blocks that you have.
14:29
SPEAKER_01: And then coaching helps you with your goals in the future.
14:32
SPEAKER_01: But I will say this is why even me as a coach saying this, this is why therapy is even more important.
14:38
SPEAKER_01: If you have so much goals and you're noticing blocks, that's why you need to go to therapy to get that help.
14:43
SPEAKER_01: Anything that you wanted to add to that?
14:45
SPEAKER_00: I think what you mentioned, I I had that experience as well.
14:49
SPEAKER_00: That again, I think there are things with skill-based things, with tools and strategies.
14:54
SPEAKER_00: Coaching can be excellent.
14:55
SPEAKER_00: Uh, one of my uh kind of I did my postdoc in treatments of eating disorders.
15:00
SPEAKER_00: And one of my clients, she told me about this coach that had a podcast and we were talking about weight loss and all of that.
15:07
SPEAKER_00: And the strategy is good, but person came on the call, they talked about they have bulimia and what they need to do.
15:15
SPEAKER_00: And the coach said, Oh, whatever I'm talking about, this apply it, and that's gonna be okay.
15:21
SPEAKER_00: And I was so scared for the person because that way of approach toward food, they it will just make their bulimia worse, the eating disorder cycle worse, and then lead to someone kind of have serious medical conditions.
15:36
SPEAKER_00: So I think that's something for people to think about.
15:38
SPEAKER_00: That as you mentioned, that if I try this approach, if I'm kind of using this strategy, it's not seeing kind of I see things from my past play and or my challenge was more complicated, then that can be a good candidate for coaching.
15:53
SPEAKER_00: And I think the other thing that can be helpful for people is to get the right diagnosis.
15:58
SPEAKER_00: Because psychologists, therapists, they are trained in doing diagnosis.
16:03
SPEAKER_00: And diagnosis is not necessarily about labeling you with something that's wrong.
16:08
SPEAKER_00: It's not all about that, but it gives you some understanding of what is the next phase.
16:14
SPEAKER_00: For example, I had a client, she was a very successful woman, but she had this pattern of spending money recklessly at times.
16:22
SPEAKER_00: And she was like, she was she did so much work around that, but she couldn't understand what's happening to me, that I'm out of the blue, I'm making these huge purchases.
16:31
SPEAKER_00: Then when we worked together, we realized that she had undiagnosed bipolar one.
16:36
SPEAKER_00: And as part of bipolar, you get manic phase.
16:39
SPEAKER_00: And that's part of it, is even physiological.
16:42
SPEAKER_00: So even knowing having that label, getting treatment for that, getting medication for that, that was game changer for someone.
16:49
SPEAKER_00: So it's it's important to know those things.
16:52
SPEAKER_00: And again, but there's someone that like I one of the things that you do in your podcast, I love is like financial literacy, because I think as a woman of color, you might not got those information.
17:03
SPEAKER_00: Maybe have you have the higher education, but I think having those tools and strategies are valuable.
17:08
SPEAKER_00: But perhaps if you have the pattern of things that doesn't it doesn't make sense for you, then kind of like consulting with a therapist can give you a better idea on those things.
17:16
SPEAKER_00: What do you think about that?
17:17
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know what?
17:18
SPEAKER_01: I actually didn't know about coaching.
17:20
SPEAKER_01: I was just kind of hearing about it.
17:22
SPEAKER_01: And I remember connecting with my therapist at the time.
17:25
SPEAKER_01: I was like, hey, have you heard about a coach?
17:28
SPEAKER_01: Because I was like fired two times when I was working with therapists.
17:31
SPEAKER_01: I was like, what is wrong with me?
17:33
SPEAKER_01: And I knew I had some goals.
17:34
SPEAKER_01: And I knew in therapy, it wasn't necessarily like personal professional goals.
17:39
SPEAKER_01: It's going through blocks that's happening.
17:42
SPEAKER_01: And I've just learned a lot of it because I think just as women of color, we uh there's just so much we tell ourselves.
17:48
SPEAKER_01: Like, I should already know this.
17:49
SPEAKER_01: But it really is a lot about educating ourselves as immigrants, first-gen immigrants, where no one in our family has done it before.
17:57
SPEAKER_01: And there's no shame of not knowing, it's about really understanding.
18:02
SPEAKER_01: And for example, I just finished a trauma informed certification.
18:08
SPEAKER_01: And through that, I was like, wow, I didn't realize that there was probably times when I've been coaching my clients that they have not felt safe or learning to ask the right questions.
18:20
SPEAKER_01: So, yes, to educating yourself.
18:23
SPEAKER_01: And actually, that's what I wanted to ask you.
18:25
SPEAKER_01: What advice would you have for people who are not sure, like they they need help, but they're not sure if it's a coach or if it's a therapist, what tips and advice would you have?
18:36
SPEAKER_00: Great, great question.
18:38
SPEAKER_00: So there are a few things that can be helpful.
18:41
SPEAKER_00: One is that if you feel that like there are kind of acute depression and anxiety that gets in the way of you doing life, I encourage you to start with therapy first.
18:52
SPEAKER_00: Because even if someone gives you the best strategies, the best roadmap, if you don't have will to leave, if you don't have that energy, or if you're feeling so anxious, you will not be able to show up for yourself.
19:05
SPEAKER_00: Like that will slow down your progress.
19:08
SPEAKER_00: So I think that that's something to keep in mind.
19:10
SPEAKER_00: But I think I actually encourage people who are feeling more at the kind of stable baseline to start with coaching.
19:18
SPEAKER_00: Like if there's this particular skill that you want to learn, if financial literacy, kind of like entrepreneurial things, things that you want to learn.
19:26
SPEAKER_00: I think coaches who are seasoned and they are kind of like main season, like having good information and system on that way, they can give you what you would need.
19:35
SPEAKER_00: I think that's important.
19:36
SPEAKER_00: And then kind of thinking about if you are on this journey and you notice there are patterns from your past that show up and it gets in the way.
19:46
SPEAKER_00: And recognizing it, it's not going to be helpful for you, it's not haven't been helpful for changing it, then consulting with a therapist can be helpful.
19:55
SPEAKER_00: So sometimes, again, many of the coaches that are excellent their work, including yourself, they can recognize that, okay, this is there's some self-sabotaging behavior that shows up.
20:03
SPEAKER_00: But if you have that recognition and you see that this is not changing, then maybe consulting with a therapist can help you to work at that underlying issues.
20:12
SPEAKER_00: And it couldn't necessarily be either or.
20:15
SPEAKER_00: Like many people that they go to their coaches to get specific skills and strategies and roadmap, and they go to a therapist to work on their unresolved pattern, work on kind of like relational things, worldview.
20:31
SPEAKER_00: So that can actually improve your progress.
20:34
SPEAKER_00: So I think that's one of the kind of distinctions.
20:36
SPEAKER_00: The other thing is that depending on who are you connecting with, right?
20:42
SPEAKER_00: That I think rightness of the fit is really important.
20:45
SPEAKER_00: So if you find a coach that you like, you listen to their podcast, you like them, it's a great place to start, right?
20:52
SPEAKER_00: That I think with therapists, uh but if you don't know anyone that's like have those skills, sometimes therapy can be a safer space if it's life challenges, right?
21:04
SPEAKER_00: And I tell you what, there are coaches that are fantastic, but with therapists, there are more regulation, as you mentioned.
21:11
SPEAKER_00: Like someone who's a licensed therapist in the state, they need to pass certain levels of continuing education.
21:17
SPEAKER_00: Like if there's an issue, you can go to their board.
21:19
SPEAKER_00: Like it's very regulated.
21:21
SPEAKER_00: So there are some baseline requirements, but with coaching, I've seen amazing coaches, and I've seen people that they give harmful advice.
21:30
SPEAKER_00: So I think that could be harder to distinguish.
21:33
SPEAKER_01: Yes, I have seen very harmful behavior in the coaching industry because of that.
21:39
SPEAKER_01: And I know you probably hear the word regulation, like control, but this is coming from being safe and ethical.
21:46
SPEAKER_01: So for those that are coaches, service providers, you have an ethical duty to let your clients know, or even possible leads where they have conversations with you.
21:59
SPEAKER_01: If you are Not a good fit.
22:01
SPEAKER_01: I have, and there's nothing bad or negative about it.
22:05
SPEAKER_01: And Dr.
22:05
SPEAKER_01: Moali, I would love your feedback, but I've done this a couple of times where I have clients, I've noticed there's blocks, right?
22:11
SPEAKER_01: I could consult them in terms of here's some strategy on what you could do in your business.
22:17
SPEAKER_01: But what I notice when that happens and nothing is moving, I know there's a block.
22:22
SPEAKER_01: And I also know that I am not licensed for it.
22:26
SPEAKER_01: And this is what I've said in those situations.
22:29
SPEAKER_01: Like, hey, and tell me if it's safe.
22:31
SPEAKER_01: Please like critique me.
22:34
SPEAKER_01: Hey, let's say the person's name is, I don't know, Kim.
22:37
SPEAKER_01: Hey, Kim, like I know we've talked about you wanting to do this in your business or career.
22:41
SPEAKER_01: Well, at the same time, I am noticing this block.
22:44
SPEAKER_01: And I want the best for you.
22:47
SPEAKER_01: I acknowledge I am not the expert here.
22:50
SPEAKER_01: And I know when I've been in your position, I've sought out a therapist, and that's probably something that you should consider too.
22:57
SPEAKER_01: So that's how I share it.
22:59
SPEAKER_01: But like I said, we have an ethical obligation.
23:01
SPEAKER_01: I have been unfortunately in spaces where people give advice when people are being so vulnerable, sharing trauma.
23:08
SPEAKER_01: Actually, a lot of people don't even want advice.
23:10
SPEAKER_01: They just want to be heard, kind of like a friend.
23:13
SPEAKER_01: And even though you might be a coach or expert in whatever service, you know what makes you a great service provider is acknowledging that you are not the expert at everything.
23:23
SPEAKER_00: Well, Elaine, I agree with you.
23:25
SPEAKER_00: I do that as a therapist as well.
23:26
SPEAKER_00: I think it's just a good practice.
23:28
SPEAKER_00: And as a consumer, that can put people in so much better place, even kind of like wanting to continue working with you.
23:36
SPEAKER_00: So as a psychologist, I had some training in the child psychology.
23:41
SPEAKER_00: But if someone is kind of asking me about doing therapy with a child or asking specifically parenting strategy, general parenting strategy, I refer them out because as a woman, I don't have a child, I that's not my specialty.
23:55
SPEAKER_00: I feel like I wouldn't be able to be the best person to help them.
24:00
SPEAKER_00: Or if they are even as a sex therapist, that I have kind of extensive training in that.
24:04
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes people need specific skills that I haven't learned in graduate school in psychology, but I know they're fantastic sex educators and coaches that they can teach them those skills in a one session or two, right?
24:20
SPEAKER_00: That would be a disservice if people coming to me when they can get the services, the education somewhere from an expert that someone has more extensive training in me.
24:29
SPEAKER_00: So I think it's always a good practice, even as a business owner.
24:32
SPEAKER_00: And I can imagine who might agree that it's like kind of thinking about what is the best for customer.
24:38
SPEAKER_00: Because as a consumer, I've been with coaches that I purchased like very expensive sessions and they claim that you'll do everything and they know everything on the sales call.
24:50
SPEAKER_00: And then when we got into the actual coaching session, it was so disappointing that knowing that it was just a sales pitch and you would never want to buy again from the person.
24:59
SPEAKER_01: You know, I will say this because I had to find a new therapist recently because my old therapist is booked, and the therapist I have now is just such a good fit for what I'm working on.
25:10
SPEAKER_01: What I appreciated when I interviewed eight therapists, as opposed to like in the coaching and online world, and I think it's a lot of like marketing technique, is therapists really came from like, I'm here to serve you.
25:22
SPEAKER_01: Like, I I know if you have six other interviews with therapists, choose what's the best one.
25:26
SPEAKER_01: And what I haven't appreciated, and I think there is a change that's happening.
25:30
SPEAKER_01: And I I used to be like this, by the way, and I've changed my style of when I connect with someone and doing a sales call of like, oh, well, if you don't work with me, I'm gonna give you an early bird bonus.
25:40
SPEAKER_01: Like it's very aggressive, and it's really important, like listen to what someone needs.
25:47
SPEAKER_01: And then if you're not a good fit, refer them.
25:50
SPEAKER_01: It has nothing to do with them being not enough, right?
25:53
SPEAKER_01: Or you not being a good enough.
25:56
SPEAKER_01: It's just ethics.
25:57
SPEAKER_01: And also, I believe in karma, what comes around goes back around.
26:02
SPEAKER_01: And I think it will be helpful for people to understand why I have both a coach and therapist.
26:08
SPEAKER_01: But what Dr.
26:09
SPEAKER_01: Mwali was sharing is I was noticing I was having blocks.
26:12
SPEAKER_01: Like I knew what I had to do in my business to do certain things, but there was blocks.
26:18
SPEAKER_01: And and I also know, I don't know if you've heard this quote, every new level, there's a new devil.
26:22
SPEAKER_01: And so I just got got rid of a lot of programs, simplified my business.
26:27
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, why am I feeling anxious?
26:29
SPEAKER_01: That's like what you're saying.
26:30
SPEAKER_01: I know what I need to do.
26:32
SPEAKER_01: Why am I not doing it?
26:33
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, I know this is not a strategy thing, it's not a mindset thing.
26:37
SPEAKER_01: I was like, I know it is trauma, notes box.
26:40
SPEAKER_01: Let me go get the help I need.
26:42
SPEAKER_01: And with happens, like I had my best month in business for the year, making the revenue.
26:49
SPEAKER_01: And I didn't do it because of my business, but let's be real.
26:53
SPEAKER_01: Do you want to stay anxious the whole time?
26:55
SPEAKER_01: Like, really?
26:55
SPEAKER_01: And even it makes you a better partner, daughter, son, business owner.
27:02
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'm just getting real with all of you guys.
27:04
SPEAKER_01: I remember telling my boyfriend, like, I'm just crying.
27:08
SPEAKER_01: I don't think I'm depressed, I'm just crying.
27:10
SPEAKER_01: I don't know what's wrong, and I need to go back to therapy.
27:14
SPEAKER_01: And I'll be honest, there was that little critical voice of like, you already went to therapy, you healed this.
27:19
SPEAKER_01: Why do you have to go back?
27:20
SPEAKER_01: And and taking that, like, no, I'm doing this for myself.
27:23
SPEAKER_01: But I had a conversation with my brother yesterday, and I was like, oh, I'm funny again.
27:28
SPEAKER_01: I've missed this version of me.
27:31
SPEAKER_01: Like, that's that's it.
27:32
SPEAKER_01: And then I have my coach, but I think, and I'm so grateful in the coaching world too.
27:38
SPEAKER_01: It's it really is changing.
27:39
SPEAKER_01: I feel like there's a cleanse.
27:40
SPEAKER_01: I just want to share how important it is to find someone that does value safety, shares similar values as you.
27:48
SPEAKER_01: Not just the I need to make X amount of money, but they understand and hold space.
27:54
SPEAKER_01: And two, also that the coach is willing to get feedback from you because I I know and I tell my clients I'm not perfect.
28:01
SPEAKER_01: So if I say something, triggers something, please let me know because I am human.
28:06
SPEAKER_01: So would love to get your thoughts on that, Dr.
28:09
SPEAKER_00: Molly.
28:09
SPEAKER_00: Well, I think what you said that completely makes sense.
28:13
SPEAKER_00: And the other piece that it's important for people to keep in mind that I I love being in therapy, but for most people, it doesn't like it's not something yet you have to go for the rest of your life.
28:25
SPEAKER_00: It could be I have high anxiety, I have a coach that I love.
28:29
SPEAKER_00: I can either go through this project with huge anchors on my ankle and not like really kind of dragging myself to every day and doing every project, or I can go to a therapist for a few months and kind of like lighten this anchor and kind of like then I'll be more focused on my business.
28:48
SPEAKER_00: So it's a personal choice, but again, it doesn't mean like you have to, if you your therapy is not your thing that you have to go for years and years.
28:57
SPEAKER_00: It's a personal decision.
28:59
SPEAKER_00: But if you're going in for like different challenges, different seasons with someone that's that is a good fit, that's really, really important.
29:07
SPEAKER_00: I can even improve your progress at work, at your relationship, or all as different aspects of things.
29:14
SPEAKER_00: So I think that is wonderful.
29:15
SPEAKER_00: And I think with therapies also, like I think nobody's perfect, even if you have like the training in doing this, the relationship matters because you might say things and people are feeling a certain way about it and kind of being open to feedback.
29:28
SPEAKER_00: I think that's a very good practice for coaches, for therapists, because again, human relation is where the healing happens.
29:36
SPEAKER_01: Oh, I love that.
29:39
SPEAKER_01: Human relation is where the healing happens.
29:42
SPEAKER_01: And I'm pretty sure you know this book, but a book that has been very difficult to read, but also helps me understand trauma in a cognitive form, is the body keeps score.
29:53
SPEAKER_01: Love that.
29:54
SPEAKER_01: I love the book, but I recommend reading it, but also don't read it quickly because there's a lot of traumatic stories in there, so it will trigger you.
30:03
SPEAKER_01: But it does explain that, you know, we are social human beings.
30:09
SPEAKER_01: So when it comes to healing from trauma, it is working with others.
30:13
SPEAKER_01: It's kind of like, you know, when someone goes through a hard time and they're a really big church person, that's why people find church to be so big, right?
30:22
SPEAKER_01: Or for people that are part of Al Anon that are recovering from alcoholism, that's why being community is so big.
30:30
SPEAKER_01: Community is so important, connecting with others to heal.
30:34
SPEAKER_01: And I think we've seen that especially in the past two years of being in this pandemic, of the like it's summer right now.
30:43
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I know we're doing this podcast interview in Zoom, but everybody just wants to go out and connect with other people.
30:50
SPEAKER_01: It's so important.
30:52
SPEAKER_00: I agree with you.
30:53
SPEAKER_00: And kind of like to kind of add to what even you mentioned that therapy, even there have different modalities.
30:58
SPEAKER_00: Some people say that I don't love talking.
31:01
SPEAKER_00: You can do kind of like art therapy if that's something that helps you.
31:04
SPEAKER_00: There are clinicians that they do art therapy.
31:06
SPEAKER_00: They have like movement therapists that are specialized in that.
31:09
SPEAKER_00: It's so important for the goodness of the fit for psychology.
31:13
SPEAKER_00: Even it shows that, like you were talking about interviewing different therapists.
31:17
SPEAKER_00: And we know that beside kind of having the right information, what makes a huge difference in recovery is goodness of the fit.
31:25
SPEAKER_00: Your therapist can be this ivy leg, very smart person, but if you don't feel comfortable with them, you will not see the result because the relationship is really important.
31:36
SPEAKER_00: So that's why it's important to interview your therapist and find someone that resonates with you.
31:41
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
31:41
SPEAKER_01: And I will even share for me, one of the things I was looking for in the therapist I'm working with now.
31:47
SPEAKER_01: I wanted someone that was a woman of color.
31:50
SPEAKER_01: And then as I was interviewing others, I realized I felt very safe with an older Asian American therapist.
31:57
SPEAKER_01: And I've had different therapists.
31:59
SPEAKER_01: Actually, this is my first woman of color, first Asian American therapist.
32:03
SPEAKER_01: And I realized how much more safer I feel having conversations with her.
32:10
SPEAKER_01: And so if you even notice that it's even a background, then go for it.
32:17
SPEAKER_01: And also, I wanted someone older because I was realizing that I was going through things of okay, I'm in my 30s, there's some blocks here that are different from my 20s, and being a woman at this age, and just like, okay, my eggs are about to like freeze, like even understanding like how you want to settle into life.
32:37
SPEAKER_01: So that's how I decided on my therapist.
32:42
SPEAKER_01: But it could be different for all of you, just like what Dr.
32:46
SPEAKER_01: Wally was sharing.
32:47
SPEAKER_01: And I want to actually get your opinion on this, because this is opinion, right?
32:52
SPEAKER_01: This is not fact.
32:54
SPEAKER_01: But I feel like the reason why coaching has been more accepted or people want to do it as opposed to therapy, I think, is because it doesn't have such like a negative and heavy connotation compared to therapy.
33:08
SPEAKER_01: Like therapy is like a there's something wrong with you, right?
33:11
SPEAKER_01: Coaching is the cool, I have big goals, I'm gonna do it.
33:16
SPEAKER_01: And also there's so much marketing that we see online, right?
33:20
SPEAKER_01: As opposed to therapy.
33:22
SPEAKER_01: Like therapy, I think people think it's like, well, my my problems and trauma is not as big.
33:27
SPEAKER_01: And it's actually not comparing it, just acknowledging that you have a block you want to heal from it.
33:32
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
33:33
SPEAKER_01: I wanted to get your thoughts on that, but that's why I think coaching has been more accepted or wanted as opposed to therapy.
33:41
SPEAKER_01: While, like I said, I am a coach and I am saying this in my podcast episode going to therapy is more important to than coaching.
33:49
SPEAKER_01: I say that because of my own personal experience, but like I said, opinion, not fact.
33:55
SPEAKER_00: Well, I think that that's that's been my experience as well.
33:59
SPEAKER_00: And I think a few things come to mind is that one of my colleagues, I love her, she's so wonderful, she's local in our area, and she said that I'm Iranian American.
34:09
SPEAKER_00: And she said, I get lots of Iranian clients, Iranian American clients, that even language ability is not that good, but they don't want to go to someone from their culture because they've caused the shame about therapy.
34:21
SPEAKER_00: And she said they're coming to her, saying that we're coming to the class.
34:25
SPEAKER_00: Even when they do a family session, they call it a class because of the uh stigma connected to it.
34:32
SPEAKER_00: And I think it's something else with the coaching that's beautiful is that people are more comfortable talking about their personal journey.
34:38
SPEAKER_00: I think one thing that you learn in kind of field of mental health and psychotherapy is in graduate school, they say like minimal self-disclosure.
34:46
SPEAKER_00: I tend to self-disclose more when it's necessary and I find it it's healing for the client.
34:51
SPEAKER_00: But sometimes people need that information from someone else to connect with them.
34:56
SPEAKER_00: Like because coaching doesn't have that limitation away, that people can share their personal stories and people connect with those stories.
35:04
SPEAKER_00: And that can help with building that connection even before seeing the clients.
35:09
SPEAKER_00: For example, if like in traditional psychotherapy, if a if I'm telling the client I'm out of office and they say, Oh, where are you going?
35:18
SPEAKER_00: It's traditional they teach you, say, like, why do why it's right, but also in a coaching, it's like if I'm going to Hawaii with my boyfriend.
35:25
SPEAKER_00: And that's a different level of kind of building connection.
35:28
SPEAKER_00: So I think it's easier, especially when you see a coach that's sincere and they're more comfortable talking about their past to build this stronger rapport.
35:36
SPEAKER_00: So I think that can be helpful.
35:37
SPEAKER_00: And what I noticed about you, Elaine, and I know when I met you in person, I felt that there's a genuineness that comes through.
35:43
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's also makes people more comfortable to connect with you.
35:47
SPEAKER_00: And I think I'm sure that's not the case for all coaches, but it's great that you have that element and people feel comfortable opening up to you.
35:54
SPEAKER_00: Oh, thank you.
35:55
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I was like, I mean, I have a lot of clients.
35:58
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'm a business and career coach, right?
36:00
SPEAKER_01: But they're opening up to me about personal things and holding space.
36:04
SPEAKER_01: So even as a coach, getting the training and education to hold space, hold safe space.
36:12
SPEAKER_01: By the way, one thing I learned is you don't get to say it's safe space, it's your clients that do, as opposed to you, but learning yourself on the tips on how to do that.
36:22
SPEAKER_01: And knowing that when you're holding the space, it doesn't mean that as a coach, I'm not saying as a therapist, as a coach, it's not doesn't mean that the other person wants a solution or advice.
36:33
SPEAKER_01: Sometimes it's just holding space for them.
36:37
SPEAKER_01: It's a little tip for my coaches or service providers if someone's really sharing personal things.
36:41
SPEAKER_01: You could ask the question, how can I be there for you right now?
36:46
SPEAKER_01: Was it helpful for you to share that?
36:48
SPEAKER_01: Do you want to share more?
36:49
SPEAKER_01: Or if you feel inclined to want to give feedback, asking for permission.
36:54
SPEAKER_01: Would it be helpful to ask for feedback?
36:56
SPEAKER_01: Can I share a story, right?
36:57
SPEAKER_01: It's always about the client.
36:59
SPEAKER_01: And if you're just noticing, you know, it's funny.
37:02
SPEAKER_01: I actually tell my clients this.
37:03
SPEAKER_01: Sorry, it just popped in my head.
37:05
SPEAKER_01: I let my clients know my best clients are the ones that have therapists or have gone through therapy.
37:10
SPEAKER_01: So I also find it really great as a coach.
37:12
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, you know what?
37:13
SPEAKER_01: This is a topic you should explore with your therapist to get the most help.
37:18
SPEAKER_01: But I do take it as a compliment when people are able to come to me and hold safe space.
37:23
SPEAKER_01: But you know, this episode is really about understanding the differences between therapy and coaching, which one to go to, or to go to both.
37:36
SPEAKER_01: And my intention is hopefully like alleviating it for you if you do want to do both, or one or the other.
37:44
SPEAKER_01: And if you're curious about one or the other, you can start having conversations.
37:48
SPEAKER_01: I I tell my clients, whether you're looking for a therapist or a coach, start going on dates.
37:53
SPEAKER_01: See who's a good fit.
37:55
SPEAKER_01: And for me, I know who's a good fit, whether it's a coach or a therapist, but it's just like an all-body experience.
38:00
SPEAKER_01: And I start crying, I'm like, that's the one.
38:03
SPEAKER_01: She made me cry.
38:04
SPEAKER_01: I will work with them.
38:06
SPEAKER_01: Dr.
38:06
SPEAKER_01: Bwali, I always like ending episodes on what is one reflective question that you would want folks to have from this?
38:15
SPEAKER_00: And what is one action item?
38:17
SPEAKER_00: Well, I guess my approach is based on acceptance and commitment therapy, which is value-based.
38:22
SPEAKER_00: So I want people to think about what do I want my legacy to be?
38:26
SPEAKER_00: So I want you to, whenever you feel stuck and making decisions, thinking about that.
38:31
SPEAKER_00: Like, what do I want my legacy to be?
38:34
SPEAKER_00: And then using that as a compass of like knowing your legacy and kind of as far as action item, kind of like checking in with yourself every quarter.
38:44
SPEAKER_00: Am I taking actions, like committed small or big action that takes me closer to my legacy?
38:51
SPEAKER_00: Or it does these things that I'm doing this quarter is taking me away from my legacy.
38:55
SPEAKER_00: So I think that's something that I talk about with my clients and it's been helpful for myself.
39:00
SPEAKER_00: You know, my whole messaging is about legacy.
39:03
SPEAKER_01: So I am loving that.
39:06
SPEAKER_01: And also, I know you are licensed here in California.
39:10
SPEAKER_01: So if anyone is interested in working with you, can you share how people can find you and specifically what your modalities are, who you would say is the best clients you work with?
39:21
SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you for that opportunity.
39:23
SPEAKER_00: Yes, my practice is in LA.
39:25
SPEAKER_00: I'm licensed to see people within California.
39:28
SPEAKER_00: If people are in Los Angeles, they want to come in person.
39:30
SPEAKER_00: I do virtual and in-person appointments.
39:33
SPEAKER_00: They can find my private practice information on oasis2care.com.
39:38
SPEAKER_00: I work major mostly with adults.
39:41
SPEAKER_00: I see some teens with eating disorder, but majority of my caseload are adults, especially individuals and couples who are struggling with issues around intimacy and relationship.
39:51
SPEAKER_00: As a sex therapist, that's something that I've been trained to.
39:54
SPEAKER_00: And if people are looking for free resources of kind of like increasing their information about sheets and sexologypodcast.com, it's released every week and can give you the information because sometimes with sexual health, the challenges of people is that they don't have the right information.
40:11
SPEAKER_00: So that is a free resource that people can look into.
40:14
SPEAKER_01: Well, all of you guys need to let me know, but I I'm gonna ask Dr.
40:18
SPEAKER_01: Molly on this episode.
40:19
SPEAKER_01: I think we need you for another episode to talk about intimacy and relationships.
40:24
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I know it's already gonna happen.
40:26
SPEAKER_01: But if you guys really want Dr.
40:27
SPEAKER_01: Molly to come in and advocate, please message me on Instagram or email me and let me know.
40:33
SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for your time and for educating not only my audience but also me on the difference between coaching and therapy and how to distinguish which one you need and the importance of therapy.
40:47
SPEAKER_01: I mean, like I said, I'm a huge advocate for therapy.
40:50
SPEAKER_01: I've gone since I was 18, but like what you said, I don't go there all the time.
40:54
SPEAKER_00: I go there for tune-ups when I need to.
40:56
SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you so much, Elaine, for having me in this show.
40:59
SPEAKER_00: Thank you for being so open and honest about your experience and also advocating for therapy because I know sometimes people feel like therapy and coaches are like coaching are opposite of each other or like colleagues that are kind of looking negatively.
41:13
SPEAKER_00: But I I have the same experience, and I think it's very valuable for people to kind of assess for themselves.
41:19
SPEAKER_00: So thank you for this opportunity.
41:21
SPEAKER_00: I was delighted to be part of this.
41:23
SPEAKER_00: And if people have sex questions, they can send it to you, and then maybe we can do an episode on the sex questions of your listeners.
41:30
SPEAKER_01: Oh, you know what?
41:32
SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna do that.
41:32
SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna set up blasting like, hey, sex questions are gonna have an episode on it.
41:36
SPEAKER_01: Thank you for that brilliant idea.
41:39
SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Dr.
41:40
SPEAKER_01: Molly.
41:40
SPEAKER_01: And I hope all of you find Dr.
41:42
SPEAKER_01: Molly.
41:43
SPEAKER_01: I'll put it in the show notes and make sure to add her on social media.
41:47
SPEAKER_01: Mental health is so important to me, as I shared in this whole episode.
41:54
SPEAKER_01: My grandmother was bipolar and schizophrenia, and I went through my own trauma being a kid.
42:00
SPEAKER_01: And I also want to share the type of therapy that I mentioned before.
42:04
SPEAKER_01: EMDR therapy has changed everything for me.
42:11
SPEAKER_01: Like, I would see old friends from high school, college who would come up to me, like, wait, who are you?
42:17
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, what happened?
42:19
SPEAKER_01: Therapy.
42:20
SPEAKER_01: So if you want more information about therapy, the EMDR therapy that I did, go to ElaineLew.com forward slash EMDR, where there's resources of how you could start looking for a right one.
42:32
SPEAKER_01: And also, this episode's just really meaningful and important because I know how important mental health is from my own personal experience.
42:42
SPEAKER_01: So, legacymaker, if you know one or two people who might benefit from this episode, who hopefully will take action or just need support in figuring out what to do, who feel stuck, please share this episode and send them a personal message of why you think it would benefit them.
43:03
SPEAKER_01: All right, legacy maker.
43:05
SPEAKER_01: I hope you took it all in and reflect on what you need to do for you, and not because someone else is telling you what you should do.
43:16
SPEAKER_01: Remember, you have choice, you have agency on the life you want to create and what support you deserve and need.
43:37
SPEAKER_01: So more women of color and allies can benefit too.
43:42
SPEAKER_01: And if you have one or two friends that would get so much from this particular episode, please share.
43:50
SPEAKER_01: The intention behind the Color Your Dreams podcast was to contribute and give back to our people.
43:57
SPEAKER_01: All right, we'll see you next Thursday for our newest Call Your Dreams episode.
44:02
SPEAKER_01: And don't forget to Colour Your Dreams too.
44:06
SPEAKER_01: Create your legacy.