Latest / Credlin / Credlin | 9 September

Transcript

Credlin | 9 September · Credlin

• 0:07
  Speaker 1: Good evening. Welcome to the program. Here's what's coming up tonight.
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: And exclusive for you this evening, a copy of a
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: letter from Angus Taylor to the Prime Minister outlining the
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: Coalition's non-negotiable lines of the sand on immigration. If Labor's
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: to expect their support in overdue reforms in the Parliament.
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: The federal watchdog called in over allegations of fraud and rorting.
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: This is Labor's $ 7 billion battery scheme. And questions today
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: about just how long Chris Bowen's known all about it.
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: Alarming details in an alleged Avalon Airport hijacking case sits
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: now before the courts. Why have counter-terrorism investigators asked the
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: presiding Supreme Court judge to conceal the identities of the
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: foreign entities linked to the teenage accused? And Liberal Andrew
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: Hastie hits back over claims he was slandered by Pauline
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: Hanson and Barnaby Joyce, as once again the looming trial
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: involving Ben Robert Smith makes the headlines, but Hanson denies
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: this has anything to do with it.
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: Well, I would say that Pauline Hanson and Barnaby Joyce
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: are lying cowards. And I'll say it again, so there's
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: no ambiguity, they are lying cowards.
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: I'll come back to that in a moment with the panel.
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: But first, Labor's new digital duty of care is a
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: masterclass in policy deception. As I exposed last night, it's
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: not about protecting children online. It's about control, not care.
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: And adults are the primary target. Julia Gillard tried to
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: go down this path in 2013, and it was a
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: shocking failure. But having been successful at creating online censorship
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: for those under the age of 16, Anthony Albertese is
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: now going to use this as ruse to do what
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: Gillard failed to do, and that's to control what you
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: consume and to manipulate public debate. For a long time,
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: Labor's waged a war against the Murdoch media, with former
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: PM Kevin Rudd famously even trying to get up a
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: royal commission. Never mind that the Murdoch media, News Corp,
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: which is owns this network, News 24, has been just
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: as tough on the Coalition at times as its opponents.
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: Labor's modus operandi is to destroy those who disagree with
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: its worldview rather than debate them. Already, we've got a
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: federal taxpayer system shelling out some $ 67 million to, quote,
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: protected trusted news services under Labor's Journalism Assistance Fund. And
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: some 184 commercial players, well, they all receive a sling.
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: Not so News Corp or News 24. We don't get
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: a thing. And now here comes this digital duty of
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: care legislation designed to curtail free speech and hand communications
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: minister Annika Wells unfettered powers to act as Australia's information umpire.
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: In a train wreck interview this morning with my colleague
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: Laura Jays, Minister Wells was forced to admit that via regulation, yes,
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: she will determine what content is harmful, with advice from
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: Australia's eSafety Commissioner, Julie Inman Grant.
• 3:23
  Speaker 3: Is there a definition of harm in the legislation?
• 3:28
  Speaker 4: So the test for what would constitute a new serious
• 3:32
  Speaker 4: harm would ultimately be, I guess, made by me on
• 3:38
  Speaker 4: the expert technical advice of the eSafety Commissioner. However, it's
• 3:44
  Speaker 4: a disallowable instrument. So it is the Parliament that ultimately
• 3:47
  Speaker 4: determines whether I've got.
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: That right or wrong.
• 3:50
  Speaker 3: Right, but essentially it's you with advice from the eSafety Commissioner.
• 3:56
  Speaker 5: Do you see... potential problem with that?
• 4:00
  Speaker 4: I think it's a distortion to say that the Digital
• 4:02
  Speaker 4: Duty of Care is about this particular action.
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: Well, it's not a distortion. If you're making the regulations, Minister,
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: you are heavily involved, the government's heavily involved, and that
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: means politics is involved. And that the scope of these
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: regulations too, this is important, they won't even be known
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: at the time that MPs will vote on these bills.
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: That says it all. It's a Trojan horse. designed to
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: be ran through the parliament by Christmas so that the
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: new regime's up and running before the next election. That's
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: because Wells, under questioning, was forced to admit that, yes,
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: her powers as the new digital czar would extend to
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: news sites, thus exposing Labor's end game. Yeah, the duty
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: of care legislation is so broad it could capture more
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: than social media, though.
• 4:53
  Speaker 5: It could capture news websites, no?
• 4:57
  Speaker 6: Well, sorry, yes, it does.
• 4:58
  Speaker 4: The Digital Duty of Care, my apologies, does go to
• 5:03
  Speaker 4: all online services.
• 5:04
  Speaker 5: So that's a problem, isn't it? That's a tricky one.
• 5:07
  Speaker 5: Why is that a problem?
• 5:08
  Speaker 3: Well, because it's news sites and that would amount to censorship,
• 5:11
  Speaker 3: wouldn't it not? Because I'm wondering who then defines harm,
• 5:14
  Speaker 3: because if it's the e-safety commissioner.
• 5:18
  Speaker 5: And then you deciding. It's not about content.
• 5:22
  Speaker 4: It's about identifying risks that, the online services maybe offering
• 5:27
  Speaker 4: their viewers?
• 5:28
  Speaker 5: What risks is a news site offering its viewers? Well,
• 5:30
  Speaker 5: what's the risk?
• 5:33
  Speaker 6: That's right.
• 5:33
  Speaker 5: I'm saying what risks do they need to identify? This
• 5:35
  Speaker 5: is a problem, isn't it, Minister?
• 5:36
  Speaker 3: The complexity of this and the broadness of this legislation
• 5:40
  Speaker 3: could capture news sites, and then who is it up
• 5:43
  Speaker 3: to to say what is harmful and.
• 5:45
  Speaker 5: What is the risk?
• 5:47
  Speaker 4: I don't accept the premise of this argument. It is
• 5:49
  Speaker 4: not captured by the Digital Duty of Care. News websites
• 5:52
  Speaker 4: are not a function and feature of.
• 5:53
  Speaker 5: An online platform. Yes, they are. They're on online platforms.
• 5:59
  Speaker 5: How are they a functional feature?
• 6:00
  Speaker 3: Because if you were turning off the algorithm, that would
• 6:04
  Speaker 3: change how news websites would be seen, would it not?
• 6:08
  Speaker 5: Well, you as a user.
• 6:11
  Speaker 4: would be making a choice about whether you wish to
• 6:12
  Speaker 4: follow the algorithm or whether you wish to follow your
• 6:14
  Speaker 4: following feed, which is your friends and the online creators
• 6:18
  Speaker 4: that you choose to follow. So if you choose to
• 6:20
  Speaker 4: follow News 24 on your following feed, you'd see it.
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: Could it be any more embarrassing than that? I mean,
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: she was all over the shop. She doesn't even know
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: her own policy. I was a chief of staff at
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: one time, two-way communications minister. And my minister was never
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: that ill-prepared to debate legislation as seismic as this. She
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: was caught out well and truly. Labor's true agenda exposed
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: by Laura Jay's. This is not a digital regime aimed
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: at protecting children. This is a way to protect Labor's
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: grip on power. After all, Anthony Albanese can hardly be
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: labelled a liar if Australians are barred from knowing he lied.
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: Can you rule out any changes to negative gearing and
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: capital gains tax?
• 7:06
  Speaker 7: Yes.
• 7:07
  Speaker 6: How hard is it for the 50th time?
• 7:09
  Speaker 7: I believe that when you go to an election and
• 7:14
  Speaker 7: you make commitments, you should stick to them. I told
• 7:17
  Speaker 7: people we wouldn't make changes. The proof's in the pudding, Andrew.
• 7:20
  Speaker 7: If we were going to make changes, then why haven't we?
• 7:24
  Speaker 5: Were those statements promises?
• 7:27
  Speaker 7: They were statements. And we have changed our positions.
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: Voters only know now that you lied because we were
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: allowed to show you all of that. But how long
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: is that going to be allowed if a Labor minister
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: is now going to make the rules? Again, imagine if
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: this regime was in place during the voice referendum. Australians
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: would never have discovered the truth about the Uluru Statement
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: from the Heart and the radical agenda it was, an
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: agenda of treaty and reparations that people like me were
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: able to publicise via documents obtained under FOI. But with, quote,
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: harmful content soon to be defined by government, how long
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: will the free media last in this country? How long
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: will we be able to challenge our governments if government
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: gets to decide what Australians are allowed to know? If
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: this duty of care, this digital duty of care becomes law,
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: the eSafety Commissioner will be free to act on comments
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: she made in 2022 at Davos because Annika Wells was
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: forced to admit That, this woman, this digital commissioner, is
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: at the heart of the regime. And she's already admitted
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: to a willingness to recalibrate your right to free speech.
• 8:45
  Speaker 8: We are finding ourselves in a place where we have
• 8:49
  Speaker 8: increasing polarisation everywhere. And everything feels binary when it doesn't
• 8:54
  Speaker 8: need to be. So I think we're going to have
• 8:56
  Speaker 8: to think about a recalibration of a whole range of
• 8:58
  Speaker 8: human rights that are playing out online, you know, from
• 9:01
  Speaker 8: freedom of speech to the freedom to, you know, to
• 9:04
  Speaker 8: be free from online violence.
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: I mean, what does recalibration of your right to free
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: speech look like? This so-called digital duty of care legislation
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: is designed to change forever how you access information. Even
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: if the initial parameters sound defensible, once in place, they'll
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: be open to abuse and can be changed to deliver
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: a political outcome. This bill is not about protecting Australians.
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: It's about protecting the left. It's about entrenching Labor power.
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: And it's about denying Australians access to a broad range
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: of legitimate information sources so that you can make up
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: your own mind. Now I'll say it again, this is
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: about as nuclear as it gets in the fight for
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: free speech. Let's go to Canberra now for the headlines.
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: Our political reporter, Trudy McIntosh.
• 10:03
  Speaker 9: Liberal MP Andrew Hastie is ramping up his attacks on
• 10:07
  Speaker 9: One Nation.
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: Pauline Hanson and Barnaby Joyce are lying cowards. But when
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: you start calling me a traitor to my own country,
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: then we have a big, big problem.
• 10:15
  Speaker 9: Pointing to this One Nation cartoon is evidence of a
• 10:17
  Speaker 9: smear campaign against him.
• 10:19
  Speaker 5: And it's all my fault because I'm a stupid traitor.
• 10:22
  Speaker 6: Why is everyone calling me a traitor then? Because you
• 10:25
  Speaker 6: are a traitor.
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: I was speaking to Pauline this morning about this.
• 10:28
  Speaker 10: She never called him a traitor.
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: Barnaby Joyce backed her in. They're both on the hook
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: and I brought the receipts. You can see them for yourself.
• 10:35
  Speaker 9: The former SAS captain claims One Nation is targeting him
• 10:38
  Speaker 9: because he gave evidence against VC recipient Ben Robert Smith.
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: It's not just about me. It's about the other veterans.
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: Are they saying the same thing of the other veterans?
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: 20 SAS combat veterans who gave evidence under oath in
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: the federal court, are they also traitors to their country?
• 10:52
  Speaker 9: Mr Joyce cautioning supporters to temper the language.
• 10:56
  Speaker 11: And I dearly hope that nobody is threatening Andrew or
• 11:00
  Speaker 11: his family and certainly not premising on anything.
• 11:02
  Speaker 10: To do with One Nation.
• 11:03
  Speaker 9: A digital detox in the classroom is on the cards
• 11:06
  Speaker 9: as Australian school results slip to the lowest level on record.
• 11:10
  Speaker 9: The latest PISA results for Year 9 students show declines
• 11:13
  Speaker 9: in maths and reading. teachers battling concerns about bad behaviour
• 11:17
  Speaker 9: and digital disruptions.
• 11:19
  Speaker 11: Our kids need to learn digital skills, but I think
• 11:22
  Speaker 11: there is a good argument that we need to.
• 11:24
  Speaker 10: Wind it back a bit.
• 11:25
  Speaker 9: And the Prime Minister led tributes today for renowned biographer
• 11:28
  Speaker 9: Blanche Delpute. The widow of legendary Labor Prime Minister Bob Hawke,
• 11:33
  Speaker 9: Blanche died aged 82 after a battle with cancer.
• 11:37
  Speaker 7: She was so full of joy and it was always
• 11:40
  Speaker 7: a splendid privilege to be in her company. Our hearts
• 11:44
  Speaker 7: right now are with her family and all who loved
• 11:48
  Speaker 7: this much-loved Australian.
• 11:50
  Speaker 9: Trudy McIntosh, News 24, Canberra.
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: All right, One Nation's back in front of Labor as
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: I bring in our Chief Election Analyst, Tom Connell, to
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: get you across the latest detail from the Sky News 24,
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: goodness me, the News 24 Pulse Poll.
• 12:14
  Speaker 12: Peter, another big poll for One Nation, a real surge
• 12:17
  Speaker 12: just within this one survey compared to the last one
• 12:20
  Speaker 12: and also a pretty long-term trend in terms of gains
• 12:23
  Speaker 12: and losses.
• 12:23
  Speaker 6: Let's have a look, though.
• 12:24
  Speaker 12: One Nation up four percentage points, as I said, just
• 12:27
  Speaker 12: in this poll. So it's the biggest lead they've had
• 12:29
  Speaker 12: over Labor, 4% ahead of Labor, which is down, and
• 12:31
  Speaker 12: the biggest ahead of the Coalition, which is down to 18.
• 12:33
  Speaker 6: The gap between.
• 12:35
  Speaker 12: The Coalition and One Nation on the two surveys ago
• 12:37
  Speaker 12: was two percentage points, so it's grown a lot.
• 12:39
  Speaker 6: What about over time? So this is tracking back just
• 12:42
  Speaker 6: since November.
• 12:43
  Speaker 12: One Nation had already surged then, but since then it's
• 12:46
  Speaker 12: up 12% further and it's basically taken that off Labor
• 12:49
  Speaker 12: and Coalition. So where, what sort of voters are deserting
• 12:53
  Speaker 12: the major parties.
• 12:54
  Speaker 6: For One Nation?
• 12:55
  Speaker 12: Let's have a look first of all at the One
• 12:57
  Speaker 12: Nation gains in terms of cohorts. So Millennials are going
• 13:00
  Speaker 12: over in big numbers now, up 15% since November.
• 13:03
  Speaker 6: Outer Metro as well. We know that could well mean seats.
• 13:06
  Speaker 12: 50,000 to 99,000 household income. So lower middle income doubled
• 13:11
  Speaker 12: and up to 38%. Maybe these are Pauline's battlers. Language
• 13:14
  Speaker 12: other than English at home, interestingly enough, has doubled as well,
• 13:17
  Speaker 12: 12 to 24.
• 13:18
  Speaker 6: And those renting.
• 13:19
  Speaker 12: So a lot of people on here basically doing it tough,
• 13:22
  Speaker 12: going to One Nation. In terms of who Labor is losing,
• 13:25
  Speaker 12: New South Wales, the biggest state, the most seats, it's
• 13:27
  Speaker 12: lost a third of its vote.
• 13:29
  Speaker 6: Out of Metro, so people going from Labor to... to
• 13:32
  Speaker 6: One Nation.
• 13:33
  Speaker 12: Income under 50k, so those on low income are deserting
• 13:36
  Speaker 12: Labor as well. And language other than English at home,
• 13:39
  Speaker 12: so again, people going from Labor to One Nation. And finally,
• 13:42
  Speaker 12: owning a house outright, so people looking at slumping house
• 13:45
  Speaker 12: prices over the past couple of months in particular and
• 13:48
  Speaker 12: not too happy.
• 13:49
  Speaker 6: As for the Coalition, they've got a few problems. Older voters,
• 13:52
  Speaker 6: 65 plus.
• 13:53
  Speaker 12: They've had a big haircut there, but also millennials, so
• 13:56
  Speaker 12: younger voters are also deserting them at a rate of 9%.
• 13:59
  Speaker 12: And here's a bad combination, Queensland and provincial, so down
• 14:03
  Speaker 12: by 11 and 14. So think of Queensland, where the
• 14:07
  Speaker 12: National Party holds eight out of those 10 seats in
• 14:10
  Speaker 12: the provincial areas. So basically on these numbers, they would
• 14:13
  Speaker 12: likely all be gone. And finally, the pitch towards blue-collar
• 14:16
  Speaker 12: workers for the Coalition, not working right now, at least
• 14:18
  Speaker 12: when it comes to TAFE educated. They've also deserted the Coalition.
• 14:22
  Speaker 12: in the past 10 months.
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: Plenty of food for thought there. Let's bring in the
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: panel news 24 senior reporter Carolyn Marcus and senior fellow
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: with the Menzies Research Centre, Nick Cater. I'll get to
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: the polling detail in a moment, but I want to
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: go to a fiery exchange just before this program began
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: with Chris Kenny and Pauline Hanson. Launching a furious defence,
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: this is Hanson, over claims from Andrew Hastie that he's
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: been slandered by One Nation. Now, he said today these
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: claims relate to his military service. That's certainly how he's
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: taken them and he wants these claims of him being
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: a traitor in one of the Hanson cartoons removed online.
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: But the One Nation leader, well, she says this has
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: got nothing to do with that. This was about flak
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: he copped from his own supporters after he did a
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: backflip to support Labor's hate speech laws.
• 15:21
  Speaker 13: Actually, it wasn't even over Ben Robert Smith because when
• 15:25
  Speaker 13: he actually told his constituency that he would vote against
• 15:29
  Speaker 13: the Labor Party's hate speech laws and then he did
• 15:34
  Speaker 13: end up voting with it, that's when people on his
• 15:38
  Speaker 13: own page called him a traitor for that because he
• 15:42
  Speaker 13: vowed that he wasn't going to support it and he did.
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: Alright, Nick, your thoughts here?
• 15:48
  Speaker 11: Well, look, we criticise the ABC for its so-called satirical
• 15:52
  Speaker 11: programme about Gina Reinhart and loose language. I think we
• 15:55
  Speaker 11: criticise this cartoon for exactly the same reasons. Even in
• 16:00
  Speaker 11: the context of satire, if you want to call it that,
• 16:03
  Speaker 11: it's pretty tough calling somebody a traitor to their country,
• 16:07
  Speaker 11: particularly when it's somebody who has served their country with
• 16:09
  Speaker 11: great distinction and great bravery. So I really do think
• 16:13
  Speaker 11: that they're out of line here. And I think Pauline
• 16:15
  Speaker 11: Hanson's attempt to sort of shift this debate to some
• 16:18
  Speaker 11: other issue other than Ben Robert Smith, who's a little
• 16:20
  Speaker 11: bit twee. But in the end, I think Andrew Hastie,
• 16:24
  Speaker 11: he's a tough guy. He should roll with the punches
• 16:28
  Speaker 11: because that's politics.
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: What about Pauline Hanson's claim, Nick, that this is part
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: of positioning by Hastie, who, you know, a lot of
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: people say he's been in a bit of a funk
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: this year after that blowback about the change of heart
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: on hate speech laws, and I think impacted too by
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: by criticisms in relation to Ben Robert Smith, that this
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: is now him getting out and about and part of
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: sort of positioning himself for the leadership.
• 16:53
  Speaker 11: Well, I don't know about that. I mean, I think
• 16:55
  Speaker 11: we'd all like to see Andrew Hastie using his considerable
• 16:58
  Speaker 11: brain and intellect and experience to do some more solid
• 17:03
  Speaker 11: policy work, you know, but there's room for that down
• 17:05
  Speaker 11: the track. He's a very good local member, incidentally. He
• 17:08
  Speaker 11: gets a lot of support in that electorate of his.
• 17:11
  Speaker 11: And I think it'd be great, very unfortunate if he
• 17:14
  Speaker 11: had to face a concerted effort from one nation that
• 17:18
  Speaker 11: was built on some kind of feud over Ben Robert Smith.
• 17:22
  Speaker 11: I think it's really very unfortunate if politics comes down
• 17:25
  Speaker 11: to that. But that's the kind of ugly world we're in,
• 17:28
  Speaker 11: I think, Peter.
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: Let's go to that polling that we just played you
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: there with Tom Connell. This is the new 24 poll.
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: Of course, Caroline comes out every fortnight. But then also
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: the admissions of drug use yesterday from the One Nation
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: leader in Victoria, Warren Pickering. Of course, the poll was
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: taken prior to those admissions. But given the demographic splits
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: that Tom went through there about the sort of people
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: who are in now the One Nation base and Will
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: those comments yesterday from Pickering hurt or hinder him and
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: the party's chances in Victoria?
• 18:05
  Speaker 5: I can't see it hurting him.
• 18:07
  Speaker 14: If anything, I think it may even give One Nation
• 18:12
  Speaker 14: a bit of a bump because I think the story
• 18:15
  Speaker 14: is legitimate, what the Australian reported, the claims from his
• 18:19
  Speaker 14: former partner. But the fact that despite denying the allegations
• 18:23
  Speaker 14: entirely to start with, Warren Pickering actually fronted the media
• 18:27
  Speaker 14: and He gave a press conference.
• 18:29
  Speaker 5: He answered questions.
• 18:31
  Speaker 14: He denied possibly some of the worst allegations that he
• 18:34
  Speaker 14: had used the drug ice. He was supported by his
• 18:38
  Speaker 14: daughter and his steps. And I think all of these
• 18:40
  Speaker 14: things actually work in his favour. And I think a
• 18:42
  Speaker 14: lot of One Nation voters and people who are turning
• 18:44
  Speaker 14: to One Nation are thinking, well... we may have skeletons
• 18:48
  Speaker 14: in our own closets. So what if he has done
• 18:50
  Speaker 14: drugs in the past, as long as he's turned his
• 18:52
  Speaker 14: life around and then served the country in the Defence
• 18:57
  Speaker 14: Force and is now running in One Nation? I think
• 19:02
  Speaker 14: that they would cut him a little bit of slack
• 19:04
  Speaker 14: for that. So I don't see it hurting him. It
• 19:06
  Speaker 14: may even help.
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: I thought it was a bit reached to by some
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: in the media and certainly plenty of politicians with the
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: commentary about drug use in their 20s just one week
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: after the New South Wales Labor government announces that they're
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: going to have pill testing at festivals so that kids
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: today can have illicit drugs more safely. And we want
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: to hang a bloke who says he used them 20
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: years ago, but then took it upon himself in his
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: 20s to raise the children of somebody else and then
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: went into the military. But anyway, we'll leave that there.
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: Victorians will be the judge. Hey, Nick, digital duty of care.
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: I say this is nuclear. In relation to free speech,
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: a train wreck interview this morning from the Minister, Annika Wells,
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: wasn't really sure what's in the legislation, forced to admit
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: that actually she'll be the umpire under regulations that are
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: yet to be made, and also tried to deny that
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: youth services would be captured by these rules, and then
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: forced to admit under a bit of pressure that yes,
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: they will.
• 20:06
  Speaker 11: That's right. And look, I may be plagiarising your editorial yesterday, Peter,
• 20:11
  Speaker 11: I don't know, but I think this is Trojan horse legislation,
• 20:13
  Speaker 11: isn't it? I mean, I've got no problem with the
• 20:15
  Speaker 11: idea you can opt out of the algorithm. I mean,
• 20:18
  Speaker 11: the algorithm is a politically neutral thing, as far as
• 20:21
  Speaker 11: I can see, that's just there to put us something
• 20:23
  Speaker 11: in our way that's going to grab our attention. And
• 20:26
  Speaker 11: if we want to opt out of that, well, fair enough.
• 20:28
  Speaker 11: But the real strength of this legislation... is in what
• 20:34
  Speaker 11: it is saying about the power of the minister to
• 20:37
  Speaker 11: decide what is misinformation, disinformation, all under the guise of
• 20:41
  Speaker 11: saving children from harm. I mean, I think it is
• 20:45
  Speaker 11: dangerous legislation. We know how this will be used. We
• 20:48
  Speaker 11: saw it used during COVID, the kind of shutdown of disagreement,
• 20:53
  Speaker 11: which on points of view that turned out to be
• 20:55
  Speaker 11: absolutely right in the end. So it's very dangerous to
• 20:59
  Speaker 11: give ministers these kind of powers And I really hope
• 21:02
  Speaker 11: that Parliament, including the Greens, recognise that this is completely
• 21:07
  Speaker 11: the wrong way for a country like Australia to go.
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: Caroline, I thought of you when I saw these global
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: numbers come out about Australia's place in the world rankings
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: for primary school maths and reading and other things, of course.
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: We'll put them up on the screen. But we're really
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: struggling in Australia in both mathematics and reading. And I
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: looked at Singapore. I knew you grew up in Singapore.
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: We spend billions in this country. What are they doing
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: right in Singapore in the education system that we are
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: not doing right in Australia?
• 21:40
  Speaker 14: Let me start with what they're not doing in Singapore.
• 21:43
  Speaker 14: They're not running schools and having teachers who are completely
• 21:48
  Speaker 14: consumed with activism and pushing far-left progressive causes on their students.
• 21:53
  Speaker 14: They're just concentrating on the basics and They don't care
• 21:57
  Speaker 14: about pronouns there. They don't care about wear it purple
• 22:01
  Speaker 14: day or encouraging students to walk out for climate change
• 22:06
  Speaker 14: or for Palestine. They are focused entirely on giving students
• 22:10
  Speaker 14: the best education they can and the basics, reading, writing, arithmetic.
• 22:15
  Speaker 14: So it is little wonder to me that we see
• 22:17
  Speaker 14: countries like Singapore and other Asian countries topping the international rankings, while,
• 22:22
  Speaker 14: as you showed there, Australians are lagging behind at 16th
• 22:27
  Speaker 14: in mathematics and 12th overall. They've actually fallen in the
• 22:30
  Speaker 14: last few years, despite us throwing so much money at this,
• 22:34
  Speaker 14: more than we ever have in the education system. Something
• 22:37
  Speaker 14: is going terribly wrong, and I've been speaking about it
• 22:39
  Speaker 14: for many years because it is not a new problem.
• 22:43
  Speaker 14: But the Education Minister, Jason Clare, continues to blame things
• 22:48
  Speaker 14: like smartphones and AI, which Asian countries have as well. Newsflash,
• 22:54
  Speaker 14: it's not just a technology problem, it's how the curriculums
• 22:59
  Speaker 14: are formed, how teachers are teaching the material about how
• 23:04
  Speaker 14: they are distracted with these things that they shouldn't be
• 23:08
  Speaker 14: introducing to schoolchildren that I've mentioned at the start. So
• 23:12
  Speaker 14: I think, obviously, we need a complete... a revision of
• 23:17
  Speaker 14: how the school systems work here, because how are our
• 23:20
  Speaker 14: students going to compete in a global economy and against
• 23:25
  Speaker 14: the future superpower that will be China when at this
• 23:29
  Speaker 14: rate they can barely read and do maths, according to
• 23:32
  Speaker 14: these figures?
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a terrible indictment. There you go. You've been
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: the front line of the Singapore education system. I wish
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: more of us had a bit more of that understanding.
• 23:42
  Speaker 6: Thank you.
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: No, I know. You might get an ambassadorial role. Be careful.
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: Thank you to you both. Let's go now to some
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: proceedings out of the chamber today. Boy, it was a
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: showdown between the climate change minister, Chris Bowen, and my
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: next guest, who really put him under some pressure about
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: these reports of alleged fraud and misconduct within the batteries
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: program and when he knew about the allegations.
• 24:09
  Speaker 15: Can the minister guarantee... that all batteries installed under the
• 24:13
  Speaker 15: government's cheaper home batteries program have been installed safely and
• 24:19
  Speaker 15: in compliance with technical requirements.
• 24:22
  Speaker 7: What I can guarantee is that every single cheaper home
• 24:26
  Speaker 7: battery has been installed under the small scale renewable energy scheme,
• 24:29
  Speaker 7: which is one of the world's most rigorous schemes for compliance.
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: The man of the moment there, the shadow minister for
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: energy and the manager of business in the House, opposition
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: business in the House, Dan Tehan. Dan, thank you for
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: your time. G-SIG was under pressure today, a lot of obfuscation.
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: We know the Attorney-General's been called in, as they should.
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: This is a $ 7 billion scheme. This, to me, feels
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: a lot like that notorious pink bat scheme of the
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: Rudd-Gillard era.
• 25:04
  Speaker 15: Absolutely, Peter, and Chris Bowen was there and saw it
• 25:08
  Speaker 15: all unfold and yet he's presiding over exactly the same thing,
• 25:13
  Speaker 15: a scheme which has been rushed out They initially allocated
• 25:17
  Speaker 15: $ 2 billion for it. $ 7 billion has gone out the door.
• 25:22
  Speaker 15: And the clean energy regulator, who's meant to oversee the scheme,
• 25:27
  Speaker 15: the Department of Climate Change ran out of money. So
• 25:30
  Speaker 15: the clean energy regulator, the overseer of the scheme, had
• 25:33
  Speaker 15: to fund it.
• 25:35
  Speaker 6: When they were meant to be regulating it.
• 25:37
  Speaker 15: And now what we've seen is nearly 100 whistleblowers come
• 25:41
  Speaker 15: forward and say there is fraud in the scheme. And
• 25:44
  Speaker 15: there is serious safety concerns with the scheme. And Chris Bowen,
• 25:49
  Speaker 15: of course, completely has his head in the sand and
• 25:52
  Speaker 15: won't even admit there's a problem.
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: What I've seen reported, you know, accusations of mocking up installations,
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: the forging of signatures, unlicensed tradies for cash jobs, leaving
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: customers in the lurch. Added to the fact, and you're
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: right to talk about safety in relation to these batteries,
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: I mean, on the side of someone's home, they're like
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: a bomb. They're lithium battery bombs if they go off.
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: What sort of response beyond the auditor do you want
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: to have into this, Dan?
• 26:27
  Speaker 15: Well, there should be a Senate inquiry and we'll be
• 26:30
  Speaker 15: engaging with the crossbench and the Greens because this goes
• 26:35
  Speaker 15: to the heart of safety of people's homes. And we've
• 26:39
  Speaker 15: already had one instance where someone has had to put
• 26:43
  Speaker 15: a safety blanket around their battery because they weren't warned
• 26:48
  Speaker 15: that if you're in an area where you have frost
• 26:50
  Speaker 15: and then the temperature can go to above 20 degrees,
• 26:53
  Speaker 15: that can cause a meltdown in your battery. All these
• 26:57
  Speaker 15: safety issues haven't been addressed properly. They haven't made sure
• 27:01
  Speaker 15: that everyone has been trained properly. As a matter of fact,
• 27:04
  Speaker 15: we know there are people who are putting the batteries
• 27:07
  Speaker 15: in who haven't got the requisite training. So what we
• 27:11
  Speaker 15: need is we need a Senate inquiry, we need the
• 27:13
  Speaker 15: scheme paused, stopped right now, while there's a proper independent
• 27:19
  Speaker 15: review of the scheme. And Chris Bowen needs to know
• 27:23
  Speaker 15: that he will be held to account if there are
• 27:25
  Speaker 15: serious safety issues and consequences as a result of this scheme,
• 27:29
  Speaker 15: because he has been warned.
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: And will you add to the terms of reference, Dan,
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: some sort of investigation on those concerns from a few
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: months ago, that these batteries have the capability, given their
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: Chinese manufacture, to be potentially turned off and on remotely,
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: you know, by a state actor who perhaps doesn't want
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: to do Australia any favours?
• 27:55
  Speaker 15: Look, all these things need to be investigated because, once again,
• 27:59
  Speaker 15: this is an utter, utter mess at the hands of
• 28:03
  Speaker 15: Chris Bowen. And as you know, Peter, he's been so
• 28:07
  Speaker 15: focused on his so-called presidency and the event planning and
• 28:12
  Speaker 15: the media planning in Fiji and Tuvalu and the fact
• 28:17
  Speaker 15: now that no-one's turning up to that, that's where his
• 28:20
  Speaker 15: priorities have been. Meanwhile, you've got this scheme which isn't
• 28:23
  Speaker 15: being administered properly and the fact that people's power bills
• 28:28
  Speaker 15: continue to go up and up. It's a complete and
• 28:31
  Speaker 15: utter disaster. So we want to make sure that we
• 28:33
  Speaker 15: can hold him to account to.
• 28:35
  Speaker 10: The greatest extent possible.
• 28:37
  Speaker 15: Obviously, as you know, we've got to work with the
• 28:40
  Speaker 15: crossbench in the Senate to get this inquiry up. But
• 28:44
  Speaker 15: given we've had nearly 100 whistleblowers come forward, surely.
• 28:49
  Speaker 10: even.
• 28:49
  Speaker 15: The Greens and the crossbench have to admit that this
• 28:53
  Speaker 15: scheme needs a serious, serious review.
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: Well, you gave it a red hot go in the
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: chamber today. Well done, Dan Tehan. Thank you. After the break,
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: we'll dig into that letter that I've got an exclusive
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: for you from Angus Taylor, the letter to the Prime
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: Minister outlining basically the lines in the sand for the
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: coalition on migration. Welcome back. The UK sanctioning Israel. We'll
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: get to that in a moment. And I've got an
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: eagle eye friend of mine who was a great educator.
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: He has let me know that PISA is about the
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: test scores for 15 year old students, not primary school students.
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: We like to get that right here on Credlin. So
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: make those notes. But now to that breaking news that
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: I flagged at the top of the program. Opposition leader
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: Angus Taylor has tonight written to the Prime Minister ahead
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: of the government's long-awaited release of reforms to Australia's migration system.
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: And more than just a focus on how many people
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: can come under Labor, Taylor says he wants action across
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: a whole lot of fronts, including national security. Outlining what
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: he says are core principles for the coalition, Taylor's told
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: Albanese that unless things change, and change now, the coalition
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: will not vote for any of Labor's looming reforms. Here
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: to tell us more, Shadow Home Affairs Spokesman John O'Donoghue. Senator,
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: thank you. So I've got the letter in front of
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: me and it'll be up online if it's not already
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: with Sky News at News 24. But if I'm reading
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: it right, this says that you will not support, the
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: Coalition will not support any of Labor's soon-to-be-announced migration reforms
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: unless it gets serious about criminals, terrorists, unless it stops
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: legal aid for people who want to appeal visas, unless
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: there is welfare removed from those who have been denied visas.
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: Because if it's all of these things, Jono, this is
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: really taking the fight up to Labor.
• 30:54
  Speaker 16: Well, and Peter, I know you and others on your
• 30:57
  Speaker 16: program have been big advocates for actually getting tough here
• 31:00
  Speaker 16: on what is a broken system. And we're concerned that
• 31:03
  Speaker 16: whatever Labor do would just be window dressing. It's just
• 31:06
  Speaker 16: going to be a way of sort of tinkering around
• 31:08
  Speaker 16: the edges to keep the left flank.
• 31:09
  Speaker 6: Of their caucus happy, not to upset.
• 31:12
  Speaker 16: The groups in the community they like to keep on
• 31:15
  Speaker 16: side and sound like they're talking tough out the other
• 31:17
  Speaker 16: side of their mouth. That's why we thought it was important,
• 31:20
  Speaker 16: knowing that the government will inevitably have to do something
• 31:23
  Speaker 16: if they're serious about their rhetoric on immigration, to clamp
• 31:27
  Speaker 16: down on this broken system.
• 31:28
  Speaker 6: You mentioned a few of those things there.
• 31:30
  Speaker 16: Of course, an important one is when you've got people
• 31:34
  Speaker 16: here on a temporary visa of some sort, be it
• 31:36
  Speaker 16: a student visa or similar, we think that at the
• 31:40
  Speaker 16: end of that visa you should go offshore as a
• 31:43
  Speaker 16: principal to apply for any second or subsequent visa. not
• 31:47
  Speaker 16: do it onshore here and just sort of keep cycling
• 31:50
  Speaker 16: through the system and probably eventually seeking a protection visa
• 31:55
  Speaker 16: or some sort of other bridging visa. These are the
• 31:58
  Speaker 16: sorts of things that are being exploited, all the while taxpayers,
• 32:01
  Speaker 16: your viewers, are paying for them to receive welfare, are
• 32:04
  Speaker 16: paying for them to receive legal aid to challenge these decisions.
• 32:08
  Speaker 16: These are the kinds of things that we think need
• 32:10
  Speaker 16: to be done to bring integrity back to the system,
• 32:13
  Speaker 16: but also to bring down that number, a number that
• 32:16
  Speaker 16: is way.
• 32:16
  Speaker 6: Too high and one we will bring way down under
• 32:18
  Speaker 6: our policies.
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: Well, you used to have to go offshore in the
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: Howard era if you wanted to change your visa type.
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: I'm pleased to see that that's back on the table.
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: I'm pleased to see that people won't get under you,
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: and you certainly won't support it if Labor doesn't propose
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: it themselves. People won't get access to legal aid. I
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: think that's one thing I know that that drives voters,
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: taxpayers up the wall. But let's work through some of
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: the other ones on this list. No support, you say,
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: for migration reforms with Labor unless they make it illegal
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: to repatriate terrorist sympathisers, that terror suspects are stopped from
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: entering Australia and that you want to see established a
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: UK-style safe country list. Now, talk to me about the
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: last one there. How does that work?
• 33:06
  Speaker 6: Well, at the moment, you get people who apply.
• 33:09
  Speaker 16: They've come here, perhaps from the UK, on some form
• 33:14
  Speaker 16: of temporary visa and then seek protection in Australia, claim
• 33:18
  Speaker 16: asylum effectively.
• 33:19
  Speaker 6: I mean, that's a ridiculous proposition.
• 33:21
  Speaker 16: So establishing a list of countries that we determine are
• 33:26
  Speaker 16: safe jurisdictions, people are not routinely subject to persecution or
• 33:31
  Speaker 16: some form of oppression is why would we be entertaining
• 33:36
  Speaker 16: unmeritorious claims for asylum from a country that would otherwise
• 33:40
  Speaker 16: be deemed safe? So we would have a list of
• 33:43
  Speaker 16: countries here. I mean, the UK is one, the US
• 33:45
  Speaker 16: might be another, France or Germany, all of these Western democracies.
• 33:49
  Speaker 6: Of which you do get claims.
• 33:50
  Speaker 16: For asylum or protection claims from people from those countries.
• 33:55
  Speaker 6: I mean, that is a ridiculous proposition. So we think
• 33:57
  Speaker 6: one way of unclogging the ART, unclogging.
• 34:00
  Speaker 16: The minister's desk and actually restoring integrity to a broken
• 34:03
  Speaker 16: migration system is by having a list like that. And
• 34:07
  Speaker 16: that way we can deal with the people genuinely in
• 34:09
  Speaker 16: need instead of these.
• 34:09
  Speaker 6: Clowns who think they could get asylum from the UK.
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: OK. Two others that struck me that I really like
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: the look of. Find and remove the 77,000 unlawful entrants
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: and non-citizens who are in Australia at this point in time. But,
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: of course, as we know, deport the criminals, the criminals
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: that are here that have been told to go that
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: are not allowed to stay in Australia but who refuse
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: to leave. What's always struck me as bizarre, Jono, is
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: people after the challenges in the High Court, after the
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: government had to let them all out of jail, that
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: they haven't come to the opposition and said, what do
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: we do? How can we work together to resolve this?
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: Because either you're going to be in power or we're
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: going to be in power. Someone's going to have to
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: deal with this. How do we work together to bulletproof
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: these laws so that they will not then be lost
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: again in the High Court? But they haven't done that.
• 35:05
  Speaker 16: No, and you make a very good point there, Peter.
• 35:07
  Speaker 16: I mean, a good, strong migration system that protects our sovereignty,
• 35:11
  Speaker 16: protects our borders, keeps bad people out, is in the
• 35:14
  Speaker 16: national interest. This is not a political thing, but sadly, Labor,
• 35:18
  Speaker 16: of course, seem to have walked away from that objective and,
• 35:21
  Speaker 16: as you say, haven't reached out to us. But deporting
• 35:23
  Speaker 16: 77,000 people who have reached the conclusion of their visas,
• 35:27
  Speaker 16: have exhausted their appeal rights, have no reason, and legal reason,
• 35:32
  Speaker 16: that is, to be in this country... They need to go.
• 35:34
  Speaker 16: So we do need to be looking at ways to
• 35:36
  Speaker 16: remove them.
• 35:37
  Speaker 6: From our country. And, of course, deporting criminals.
• 35:40
  Speaker 16: I mean, you mentioned the NZYQ cohort, those people who
• 35:44
  Speaker 16: their own countries don't want them back, so we're stuck
• 35:46
  Speaker 16: with them. We're going to spend $ 4 billion under a
• 35:48
  Speaker 16: secret deal with Nauru to rehouse them over there to
• 35:51
  Speaker 16: get them off.
• 35:52
  Speaker 6: Our island, out of our country.
• 35:55
  Speaker 16: But, you know, we should absolutely be doing everything we
• 35:58
  Speaker 16: can to send people back that do bad things.
• 36:00
  Speaker 6: I mean, the ART, of course.
• 36:03
  Speaker 16: overturned the cancellation of a visa and there are several
• 36:06
  Speaker 16: examples of this, of people who've committed crimes like the
• 36:09
  Speaker 16: bloke who bashed an amputee with his own crutch because
• 36:13
  Speaker 16: they thought he'd have a better chance of being rehabilitated
• 36:17
  Speaker 16: in Australia if we kept him here rather than sending
• 36:19
  Speaker 16: him home. I'm sorry, that's not the kind of person
• 36:22
  Speaker 16: a strong, robust migration system should look after.
• 36:25
  Speaker 6: Those people don't deserve to be here.
• 36:26
  Speaker 16: We should be sending them home and this is where
• 36:28
  Speaker 16: they need to strengthen up a stronger ministerial direction to
• 36:31
  Speaker 16: all of those members of the Administrative Review Tribunal, do
• 36:35
  Speaker 16: not make excuses for bad people like that.
• 36:36
  Speaker 6: Send them home.
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: And of course, if they haven't got taxpayer funded legal support,
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: they won't be shopping themselves all the way to the
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: High Court. Two quick questions. The first one, of the 77,000,
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: I mean, do Labor really know where these people are?
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: I fear that they will have been lost in the system.
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: And then if they want to send them home, they
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: won't know where they are. And just on Nauru, I
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: think it was 400 million or something was the original
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: cost of that program. How many of the government actually
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: sent to Nauru?
• 37:10
  Speaker 16: Well, on the 77,000, no, they don't know where they are.
• 37:13
  Speaker 16: And in fact, at estimates not so long ago, I
• 37:16
  Speaker 16: was able to ask the counterterrorism coordinator from the Department
• 37:19
  Speaker 16: of Home Affairs if they even knew where the ISIS
• 37:21
  Speaker 16: brides were in this country. And the answer was, and
• 37:24
  Speaker 16: that's a much smaller number of people We don't know where.
• 37:26
  Speaker 6: They are right now.
• 37:27
  Speaker 16: So there are grave concerns I have around our government's
• 37:31
  Speaker 16: ability to keep us safe from people who are genuinely
• 37:35
  Speaker 16: a threat, like ISIS sympathisers, but also, of course, not
• 37:39
  Speaker 16: knowing where people who shouldn't be in this country are.
• 37:42
  Speaker 16: And so they do need to put effort and resources
• 37:44
  Speaker 16: into finding them and doing the right thing by the
• 37:46
  Speaker 16: law and removing them on Nauru. This secretive deal of
• 37:50
  Speaker 16: which we cannot get.
• 37:51
  Speaker 17: Detail, $ 4. 3 billion I think is the projected total cost
• 37:56
  Speaker 17: over the life of this deal. I believe there's only
• 38:01
  Speaker 17: somewhere like between three and six people who've actually gone
• 38:04
  Speaker 17: to Nauru. Now, again, these are people who are being
• 38:08
  Speaker 17: rejected by their own country.
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: So $ 1 billion each? $ 1 billion each?
• 38:12
  Speaker 7: Yes.
• 38:16
  Speaker 16: At this point in time, yes, your viewers, the taxpayers
• 38:18
  Speaker 16: who've worked hard and made sacrifices, mortgaged their homes to
• 38:21
  Speaker 16: run their businesses, they're paying that money and, yeah, we
• 38:25
  Speaker 16: can't get that, we can't get any detail on that.
• 38:28
  Speaker 6: So it's a dud deal.
• 38:30
  Speaker 16: And one that, frankly, they should be a bit more
• 38:32
  Speaker 16: upfront with the Australian people about.
• 38:36
  Speaker 6: Shocking.
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: Senator, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. This letter,
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: of course, will be on the website. Please have a look.
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: News 24. After the break, we'll dig a little deeper
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: into that Avalon alleged hijacking case and the AFP. Why
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: are they seeking to cover up who the teenager has
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: been communicating with? Plus tensions in Israel, the UK issuing
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: sanctions against settlements on the West Bank. Welcome back. Coming up,
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: words with Kel. But more now on the move by
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: counter-terrorist investigators who submitted top-secret evidence to the Victorian Supreme
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: Court in the case against alleged Avalon Airport hijacker. Now,
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: the document that's been provided can only be viewed, we're told,
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: by the judge. It hasn't been made available to either
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: party in the proceedings and it effectively calls on the
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: Supreme Court not to reveal the identity of the, quote,
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: foreign entities and a group that the teenager is accused
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: of interacting with.
• 39:40
  Speaker 5: Well, this is interesting.
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: Here to discuss this and more, News 24 defence analyst
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: Peter Jennings.
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: Well.
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: We can speculate, sure, there's a whole lot around this,
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: but why the secrecy? And I tell you what, I'm
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: concerned that we don't even know the nature of this
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: alleged activity in any detail.
• 40:02
  Speaker 10: Well, good evening, Peter. Yes, I'm not happy about the
• 40:04
  Speaker 10: secrecy either.
• 40:05
  Speaker 18: And what I would point to is that over the
• 40:08
  Speaker 18: last decade and a half or so, we're seeing.
• 40:10
  Speaker 10: More and more of this happen.
• 40:12
  Speaker 18: And I think rarely is it the case that these
• 40:15
  Speaker 18: proceedings are improved. or our understanding of the threat that
• 40:18
  Speaker 18: we're having to deal with has improved if we can't
• 40:20
  Speaker 18: even name the source and understand where the inspiration was
• 40:25
  Speaker 18: coming from.
• 40:26
  Speaker 10: So I think it's a retrograde step, Peter.
• 40:30
  Speaker 18: I think we are better off as a society and
• 40:33
  Speaker 18: we're better off in terms of thinking about the counter-terrorism
• 40:36
  Speaker 18: challenge if we can be more open about where the
• 40:39
  Speaker 18: threats are coming from, what the source of the extremist
• 40:44
  Speaker 18: ideology was. the country that was potentially engaging with this youngster.
• 40:50
  Speaker 18: No one benefits by just keeping these things secret.
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: And it wasn't that long ago, of course, that we
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: had the ASIO boss under some pressure. It felt political
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: pressure to me, you know, to drop references to Islamist terrorism,
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: to call it religiously motivated terrorism. you know, cloaking the
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: language so that there's less disclosure, less transparency. And of course,
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: you know, we have events like Bondi and we're too afraid,
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: some of us at least, to call it out.
• 41:22
  Speaker 18: It's the enemy of intellectual clarity, isn't it, Peter? I mean,
• 41:26
  Speaker 18: as I say, it's bad for those people who professionally
• 41:30
  Speaker 18: have to think about the source of the threat, pretending
• 41:33
  Speaker 18: that it's.
• 41:33
  Speaker 10: All the same when clearly it's not.
• 41:36
  Speaker 18: I think this is just a negative step And it
• 41:39
  Speaker 18: does also feel a little bit like it's manipulating Australian
• 41:42
  Speaker 18: public opinion. There are some things that we're just not
• 41:44
  Speaker 18: supposed to know, it would seem. Now, where is that
• 41:47
  Speaker 18: ever going to be a good thing in a democracy?
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: Well, you know, I can't go past the fact on
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: Friday at 25 years on from 9-11 that And already,
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: and I'm looking at the early commemorations in New York
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: and I'm looking at that commentary out of Canada where
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: they're dropping references to Islamist terrorism in connection to what
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: we know was an attack by al-Qaeda. And 25 years on,
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: that's being denied by some in and around officialdom and
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: certainly in the media.
• 42:19
  Speaker 10: It's crazy, Peter.
• 42:20
  Speaker 18: You know, I spent a fair amount of my career
• 42:22
  Speaker 18: post 9-11 trying to understand the sources of the Islamist
• 42:26
  Speaker 18: ideology that we were then fighting against and deploying our
• 42:30
  Speaker 18: military to fight against in the Middle East.
• 42:33
  Speaker 10: Again, I think what we need is clarity, analysis, deeper understanding.
• 42:38
  Speaker 18: not withholding information because somehow that protects us or it
• 42:41
  Speaker 18: keeps us in a little.
• 42:42
  Speaker 10: Bubble of a comfort zone by not knowing things.
• 42:45
  Speaker 18: So I think this is repellent and it really shouldn't
• 42:48
  Speaker 18: be allowed to continue.
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: You've come out of the Defence Department world, so I
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: know you understand all the nuances here. When I spoke
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: to Mike Pizzullo last week, about the nature of the
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: Royal Commission and the Richardson Inquiry. He made it very
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: clear that the Richardson Inquiry did not have the powers
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: of a Royal Commission. So we haven't, in a Royal
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: Commission sense, I heard from very senior people in the AFP.
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: We've had one AFP assistant commissioner before, Virginia Bell, and
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: his evidence was 38 minutes flat. We haven't heard from
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: the AFP commissioner herself, Chrissy Barrett. We haven't heard from
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: the prime minister. We haven't heard from senior ministers. With
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: carriage of portfolios and resources in and around counterterrorism, is
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: that good enough in your view?
• 43:43
  Speaker 10: Absolutely not.
• 43:44
  Speaker 18: I think the most glaring omission was that we now
• 43:47
  Speaker 18: operate in a world where ministers no longer take responsibilities
• 43:51
  Speaker 18: for their portfolio areas and leave it to heads of
• 43:54
  Speaker 18: departments and agencies to carry the heat. But of course,
• 43:57
  Speaker 18: as you know well, Peter, it's government that sets the tone.
• 44:01
  Speaker 18: It's government that allocates the money and makes the priorities.
• 44:05
  Speaker 18: And all of those ministers are getting away with that.
• 44:07
  Speaker 18: The other thing we didn't hear from is people who
• 44:09
  Speaker 18: are specialists in understanding the nature of the ideology that
• 44:13
  Speaker 18: we're dealing with.
• 44:13
  Speaker 10: And I think that is a lost opportunity.
• 44:18
  Speaker 18: Back in January, I worked with a range of senior
• 44:20
  Speaker 18: military police and intelligence officers calling for the Royal Commission
• 44:24
  Speaker 18: and saying that beyond the Bondi massacre itself, which should
• 44:27
  Speaker 18: understand the roots of Islamist extremism, And once again, I
• 44:32
  Speaker 18: fear that out of a sake of comfort and not
• 44:34
  Speaker 18: going into difficult territory, we've lost that opportunity. We'll probably
• 44:38
  Speaker 18: never get it again in a Royal Commission with the
• 44:41
  Speaker 18: powers that it has. And we're going to come out
• 44:44
  Speaker 18: of that, the poorer, Peter, by not really understanding the
• 44:47
  Speaker 18: nature of the threat. As I say, if you can't
• 44:49
  Speaker 18: name the threat and if you don't understand the ideology
• 44:53
  Speaker 18: it operates by, how on earth do you intend to
• 44:55
  Speaker 18: defeat it?
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: Just a quick one, I've got to go, but Israel,
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: the decision out of the UK to apply sort of
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: blanket-wide sanctions. Give me your read on that.
• 45:07
  Speaker 10: Very silly.
• 45:08
  Speaker 18: We're a long way past the time when Britain can
• 45:11
  Speaker 18: determine the outline of countries by drawing red lines on maps.
• 45:16
  Speaker 10: There is no one in.
• 45:17
  Speaker 18: The Palestinian Authority or in Gaza that is in favour
• 45:21
  Speaker 18: of a two-state solution. They want one state, their state,
• 45:24
  Speaker 18: and Israel destroyed. And continuing to look for new ways
• 45:29
  Speaker 18: to punish Israel is not going to bring about peace
• 45:32
  Speaker 18: in the Middle East. So I thought it was very
• 45:35
  Speaker 18: silly that the British and a number of European countries
• 45:37
  Speaker 18: have done this. What would be wrong as Israel is
• 45:40
  Speaker 18: a couple of months out from an election of engaging
• 45:43
  Speaker 18: with them and trying to have some discussions about how
• 45:46
  Speaker 18: to deal with this situation rather than just more performative
• 45:49
  Speaker 18: theatre of seeking to punish Israel at every opportunity?
• 45:53
  Speaker 10: It makes no sense to me.
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: I think the election, Peter, might have been the motivation.
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: I'll leave it there. Thank you. After the break, Kel Richards.
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: Let's bring him in. It's Wednesday, Kel Richards. Kel, a
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: bit of an unusual one. This is a bit of
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: a geography bend, not so much a literary one, but
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: there is a word involved here. The UN's just decided
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: to move on the map, the map we know of
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: the world, the familiar map. It's called the Mercator map.
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: I hope I've pronounced that one right. But take us
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: through why it's become so controversial.
• 46:32
  Speaker 19: Well, the one that we know, we actually would normally
• 46:34
  Speaker 19: say Mercator projection. The Mercator projection was drawn up by
• 46:37
  Speaker 19: a Dutch-Flemish cartographer named Gerardus Mercator in 1569. The new one,
• 46:43
  Speaker 19: which is being called the Equal Earth Projection, was drawn
• 46:46
  Speaker 19: up by an American cartographer, Tom Patterson, in 2018. And
• 46:50
  Speaker 19: he said he was trying to decolonize the map. Now,
• 46:53
  Speaker 19: the whole concept is rubbish because it is physically impossible
• 46:57
  Speaker 19: to accurately represent the surface of a sphere on a
• 47:01
  Speaker 19: flat sheet of paper. There will always be a distortion.
• 47:04
  Speaker 19: The old map had distortions. His map just has a
• 47:06
  Speaker 19: different set of distortions. and decolonising is a nonsense idea,
• 47:10
  Speaker 19: but for the United Nations to buy into this and say,
• 47:13
  Speaker 19: we think the new one is better than the old one,
• 47:16
  Speaker 19: is nonsense. It's not up to the United Nations to
• 47:19
  Speaker 19: make a ruling on the science of cartography. That's up
• 47:21
  Speaker 19: to the world community of cartographers, and there is no
• 47:24
  Speaker 19: evidence that the cartographers of the world are rushing to
• 47:27
  Speaker 19: line up behind Tom Patterson. So it's just a... Sorry, Peter.
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: Sorry, I'm just madly gesticulating at the production team in
• 47:37
  Speaker 1: Sydney going, where's the copy of the map on the screen?
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: Because what struck me was how big in the new map...
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: Africa is.
• 47:45
  Speaker 6: Yes, he did that.
• 47:46
  Speaker 19: He said he was decolonising it because on the Mercator projection,
• 47:49
  Speaker 19: the map was shrunk by the colonial powers. But Mercator
• 47:53
  Speaker 19: drew it up in 1569. There were no European colonies
• 47:57
  Speaker 19: in Africa in 1569. It's all a work of imagination.
• 48:01
  Speaker 19: So the thing is a load of old rope from
• 48:03
  Speaker 19: beginning to end.
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: Have we got time for one more?
• 48:07
  Speaker 9: Yes.
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: You go for it. You choose which one. Okay.
• 48:12
  Speaker 19: I heard it on the grapevine. When I first heard this,
• 48:15
  Speaker 19: I thought it might mean because vines are similar to
• 48:17
  Speaker 19: telephone wires, but it's not. It's too early for that.
• 48:20
  Speaker 19: It goes back to 1855, and it always meant, as
• 48:23
  Speaker 19: it means now, a secure, informal way of conveying information.
• 48:28
  Speaker 19: It was connected to freeing slaves, runaway slaves from the South,
• 48:32
  Speaker 19: helping them escape to the northern states.
• 48:34
  Speaker 7: Ah.
• 48:35
  Speaker 19: Just six years before the outbreak of the Civil War.
• 48:37
  Speaker 19: That's what it was, an informal way of getting information
• 48:40
  Speaker 19: to help the slaves escape.
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: There you go. That's often a song sung by blues
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: singers as well. Thank you, Kel. Great to have your company.
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: Good to get a bit of geography in. That's it
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: for me. See you tomorrow. Here's the Bolt Report.