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Land Your Dream Remote Job: How to Stand Out & Get Hired · Work It Like A Mum

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, I'm Elizabeth Willis, and I'm obsessed with helping as many women as possible achieve their boldest dreams after kids and helping you to navigate this messy and magical season of life.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a working mum with over 17 years of recruitment experience, and I'm the founder of the Investing in Women Job Board and Community.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: In this show, I'm honoured to be chatting with remarkable women, redefining our working world across all areas of business.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: They'll share their secrets on how they've achieved extraordinary success at their children, the boundaries of balance, the challenges they face, and how they overcome them.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_01: Shy away from the real talk.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_01: We cover it all.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_01: Think of this as coffee with your mate, mixed with an inspiring TikTok, sprinkled with the career advice you wish you really had at school.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: So grab a cup of coffee or a glass of wine.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_01: Make sure you're cozy and get ready to get inspired and chase your oldest dreams or just survive Mondays.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_01: This is the Work It Like a Mum podcast.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: This episode is brought to you by Investing in Women.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_01: Investing in Women is a job board and recruitment agency helping you find your dream part-time or flexible job with the UK's most family-friendly and forward-thinking employers.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_01: Their site can help you find a professional and rewarding job that works for you.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_01: They're proud to partner with the UK's most family-friendly employers across a range of professional industries.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: Ready to find your perfect job?
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_01: Search their website at investinginwomen.co.uk to find your next part-time or flexible job opportunity.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: Now back to the show.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: Hello and welcome to this week's episode of the Work It Like A Mont podcast.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_01: Today I am chatting with the lovely Michelle Colson, who runs a consultancy called Remote Rebellion, which specializes in helping job seekers find a remote work.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: So I know that a lot of um our candidates are particularly interested in remote jobs.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: So Michelle has very kindly come on here and give us some top tips on how you can secure a remote job this year.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you so much, Michelle, for joining us today.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for having me.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: That's all right.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: Have you noticed that there's been an increase in people wanting remote work?
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think it's been an increase since when?
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: Umce COVID.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: Since since COVID, definitely.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: I have noticed since in the last kind of two or three years, the novelty has worn off for some people.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: So there has been a decrease for some.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I think some people have have shied away from going for remote work because they simply think it's not possible because it's so competitive.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: So I I do still think the desire, I don't think I know based on the data, that the desire for flexibility and autonomy is as high as ever.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: But a lot of people just think it's not possible.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: Why do they think it's not possible?
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's hard.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's harder.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: There's loads of data around the the this was in, I think this was the end of 2024.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: The number of roles that are remote or uh advertised as remote on LinkedIn was something like nine percent.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: And that's including a lot of the ones that say they're remote and are not actually remote, which a lot of people have come across.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_00: And 43, 46% of all applications go to that nine percent of remote roles.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_00: That's crazy.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: So it just shows you the supply and demand.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, people want the flexibility.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_00: They might not necessarily want to work remotely five days a week, yeah, but they want the flexibility and the freedom, as you know, with with with with the people that you have in in your company, that that flexibility is so important.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it really is.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um why do you think more employees are reluctant to offer it?
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: Because if there's only 9% of jobs advertised, and a lot of jobs, I mean, I know there's some jobs that can't be remote, you know.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_01: You think of people that work in retail or hospitality, but there are a lot of jobs that could and they're not.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: So why do you think employers are reluctant to offer?
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_00: Fear and ego, honestly.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_00: I I I can I honestly can't think of any that they cite company culture and having it's laziness as well.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_00: So fear, ego, laziness.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: That like it's harder to get everyone together to get you for to communicate remotely because when you can't tap people on the shoulder, it is undoubtedly.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_00: So it's more difficult, especially if you've got time zones to compete with.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I'm I'm my team with we're spread across three different time zones.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_00: I'm usually in Asia, there's people in Europe, there's people in North America and Latam.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's difficult, and there are challenges.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: So it's the laziness.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and and I genuinely think it's those middle managers, they or or even the people, the dinosaurs of the larger companies, they're like, Oh, we want to see our people, we want our glass office, I want to see people where they are, and I want to know where they are so I can see them doing work.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's really old-fashioned.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: What about I think the counter-argument is people that are new to work, like graduates and things like that, they learn through osmosis through watching people, and it's hard to get that if everyone's behind a Zoom.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, 100%.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I used to argue against that and say, no, it's the same for everyone, and I was really on my soapbox about that.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_00: But the longer I've been in this, I would say all of the stuff I learned when I was early on in my career, I wouldn't have learned had I not been, I wouldn't have learned as much as quickly had I been surrounded by the people and listening out.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: If you're curious, like I'm the type of I'm nosy as hell.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm only off the listening to everybody's conversations and I'm not having a you know an air to the ground.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_00: When you're new in in any career, whether you're 21 or you're 51, if you're new in any kind of role, then it really does help to be surrounded, especially when you're in working with other departments.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: But if you're already established in your role, you know what you're doing, and and you don't need as much of the learning curve, I really don't see why that the roles can't be done remote if it's a laptop-based role.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_01: So we know that these roles are competitive.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_01: We know that lots of people want to work remotely.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_01: I often get emails from people that just, you know, they just want remote work, basically.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_01: How, you know, in the sea of applications, how do you stand out really?
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_01: What do you think employers are looking for if they are advertising for remote roles?
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_00: There's no short answer for this, or there's no quick answer in terms of this is what all employers are looking for.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_00: And and this is the difficulty with getting work and recruitment.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: There's no one gold standard, there's no this is the perfect CV, this is the perfect cover letter, this is how you should interview.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's subjective and it's subjective depending on the individual looking at your profile, your application, and also the company, the industry, the size, like there's so many different nuances to to go with this that it's very hard to say.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_00: What I would say is blind applying or cold applying, as you say, without knowing anyone at the company isn't a waste of time.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: However, it isn't enough just to do that anymore.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_00: You need to be out there and contrary to the, you know, like ironically, in a remote world, you need to get out there and you need to meet people.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: You need to be face-to-face, you need to be online meetings, you need to be schmoozing with as many people as possible so that they know you.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: And that they can the next time, like, oh, I need a marketing manager.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, Elizabeth, she's great.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_00: I I met her at that event.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_00: Let me bring her up.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I know that it might be hard to believe for some people when these companies have like eight different interview processes, and you know, it's it makes it out as if they love interviewing people, but most companies don't want to, they don't want to have to go through that process.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's time consuming, it's it's it's it costs a lot of money.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_00: If they can think that person that that person recommended is great, get them in.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: Much easier for them.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_00: So be that person that someone wants to recommend.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: Do you know what?
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_01: I often get asked the question, is is it illegal to basically recruit somebody without advertising a job?
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, no, I don't think it is.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_01: I know so many companies that have done that and do that on a regular basis.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_00: Some companies have to um advertise it internally and externally.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_00: I can't remember the size of the company.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_00: I think they have to do at least post it internally first, or something.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe it's a public sector thing as well.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: I think so.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: But I don't, yeah, and it and it depends again.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_00: So I I work globally, I'm not just in the UK market, so it really does depend.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_01: So obviously, it's like I 100% agree with you, like networking, getting yourself out there.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_01: Or do you say it's just offline networking, online networking, or both.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_00: And it's providing value.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like when you are going into a networking event and you're like, give me a job, have you got a job?
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_00: You know, if they might not say it in so many words, but the the that demeanour can scream sometimes.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_00: I'm here to get a job.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_00: This is what I'll come into here to get.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_00: That's all I'm listening about.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_00: And you become closed off to all the other things that to the learnings that you're getting from these events, to the people actually listening to what they have to say.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_00: People I listened to a podcast with Stephen Butler, and he was saying he gets commented on a lot.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of people go into his DMs and they say, 'I watched' and I got a book signed from him as well, and he really does do this.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_00: He pays attention to you, he listens to you.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: I love his podcast.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_00: He's great, he's really great.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: So even if he doesn't give a damn, he's a very good actor because he comes across as he really does give a damn.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_00: And people watch that and people notice.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_00: People know when you're being fake, people know when they're not when you're not listening to them.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_00: So you might think as you're going through the motions and the people and you're faking it, but people know.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_00: Like people are not too.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_01: So how do you find these events?
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_01: Because that's a thing, you know, that people like, I don't know where to start.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I you know, the thought of doing it, thought of networking is quite daunting to a lot of people, but also like, where do I find these events?
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_01: Where would people start?
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: So there's loads of places.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_00: LinkedIn is one.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_00: Meetup.com, eventbrite.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_00: And then there's also, is it Luma is also a really good place to find these events.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_00: So just by simply using it as a Google search term and saying, or even using Chat GPT, saying, I am uh in search job.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm a marketing manager looking for roles in the social impact space, in the um climate tech space, what are some good events that I can attend?
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: So basically, going in with that, I would advise steering clear.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, job search events can be useful, but they're full of other job seekers.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_00: If you can go to an event that is for a specific technology or a specific like methodology or something, if you're a project manager and you go to a meetup about Agile or Scrum, you're not necessarily gonna meet people there that are just looking for work.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_00: You're gonna meet up with other project managers who might know about roles.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_00: Don't necessarily go in saying, okay, I'm gonna just go for a job.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna go and learn about this particular technology, or I'm gonna I'm I'm gonna meet people from that industry.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_00: So go in with an open mind, not necessarily that with just one goal in mind.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_01: So, what how would you say what advice would you give to someone to be a good networker?
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_01: Because people get really daunted, don't they?
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_01: They don't really a lot of people don't like the thought of networking, they think it sounds a bit icky.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, how do you A settle your nerves and B be a good networker participant?
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_00: Two ears, one mouth.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like that.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: People love to talk about themselves, be that ear.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_00: People love to be listened to.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_00: Be there, listen, be inquisitive.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_00: You don't have to be the loudest person in the room.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_00: You have to people generally don't remember as much about what you say, they they remember how you make them feel.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: So go in.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: I've definitely stolen that from somewhere.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_00: I can't remember where I heard that.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_01: I do have heard that, but I like it as well.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we can give you credit for it.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: Michelle Close a new quote.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: So go in and just and be there and listen.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_00: Listen and learn.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: Be inquisitive.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_00: That would be my number one tip, especially for those people who are who are introverted.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_00: Like I'm an extrovert, I'm quite happy to go into a room and talk to anyone.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_00: So I get that it's a lot easier for me than it is an introvert.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_00: But in a way, introverts are generally better listeners because they don't talk as much.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: So in a way, it's easier for them.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_01: Would you recommend going with like some pre-prepared questions or anything like that?
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_01: Would that settle?
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: No, I'm still questions potentially to the speakers.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_00: So if you are going to a talk around, I'm gonna use Scrum and Agile as an example.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, go in with and never be worried about asking a stupid question.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: If if you're going in and you pre-aphrase, hey, like I'm I'm new to this space, um, so a lot of this has gone over my head if I'm honest.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: People love it when you're humbled, you know.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_00: If you're genuinely being honest of like a lot of this has gone over my head, do I get this right?
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: That XYZ, XYZ, what would you recommend for XYZ?
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: So complimenting as well.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: Again, people love their egos being stroked.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_00: So as long as it's authentic, as long as it's genuine, saying, Hey, Elizabeth, really loved your talk on Agile, the bit that I like the most was XYZ, and then question.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_00: Because they're like, Oh, warm and fuzzy, someone said something nice about me, and they're gonna remember you.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: Would you sorry, Clarian?
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: I was gonna say, always follow up afterwards.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: So it's if you can go and find out who the attendees are and the speakers before you join an event, go and reach out to them beforehand, do a connection request on LinkedIn saying, Hey, uh, name, we're we're gonna be at the event on Friday, really looking forward to hearing you speak, or really looking forward to connecting.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: So you've already preempted, hey, we're we're the same, you know, we're we're on the same page here, and then afterwards, follow up as well.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: So just to say it was great to chat with you, or it was a shame we didn't get to chat at the event.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: What did you think?
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_01: And actually that will settle your nerves as well if you um are a bit nervous about going because you've already got now a connection there.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_01: Would you when would you broach during a networking meeting that you were looking for work?
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: That's a good question.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_00: I wouldn't unless it comes up in conversation.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_00: I would keep it as like keeping it as building the relationship first.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: And there's two sides of this, like for example, in the date, I always compare recruitment and dating.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_00: There's so many similarities.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_00: Most people would say you don't go in on the first date and be like, so do you want kids and marriage?
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like, because I really want kids and marriage.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas you know, with my with my boyfriend at the moment, I said on the first date, hey, what are you looking for?
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: What are your intentions?
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: What are you this?
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_00: So it worked with him.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: Other people would have been like, Whoa, back off, lady.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I don't have a nice first date.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_00: So it really does depend.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_00: But sometimes it can work and you can get right to the point.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: Other times you need to build that relationship up a bit first.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_01: What about online networking?
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: Because people, you know, that's obviously another way to network with people.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_01: What you know, how would people go about online networking?
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: Very much the same.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: I know that sounds crazy, but doing the connection beforehand, speaking at the event, raising your hands where you can do, and I I would almost treat it exactly the same.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, is this like online webinars and things like that?
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, webinars, uh, events, so they often do they'll do um, they'll often do meetups, so it might be like a meet and greet where they do breakout rooms where they say, Hey, here we're gonna talk about now, now we're just gonna go and talk to yourself.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_00: Don't pitch yourself too much.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: People go in here and they're like, I'm Michelle, and I've got this many years of experience with this, and I've done this, and that people don't care, they care about themselves, generally speaking, especially if they don't know you, you're a stranger to them.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: Don't overpitch.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, you're there to get work, but connect with people first, and then you can go into talking about how you can solve their problem, make it about them, don't make it about yourself.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so listen to their pain points.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_01: What about LinkedIn?
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: How does LinkedIn come into this?
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: So LinkedIn's really difficult because everyone goes to LinkedIn because when people think I need a job, they go to LinkedIn.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_00: So people's DMs are flooded with a lot of crap, quite frankly.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of it AI, a lot of it high name, literally high name.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: I've had that you've done so many times.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and there's I've even had that from someone from LinkedIn, you know, that was trying to sell me a LinkedIn thing.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, it's so bad.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_00: So they're sick of it.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: So I would approach when connecting with people on LinkedIn, if you assume no one's gonna respond, then it will really save your mental health.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you go in and you're like, right, I'm gonna I'm gonna message Elizabeth and I'm really excited and she's gonna really want to speak with me.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, she didn't respond to me.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, how disappointing.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: Assume people are busy and that's why there's nothing on you, this is not a personal reflection of you.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_00: You could write the best crafted message ever, and they just simply don't have any interest in responding to you because they don't owe you anything.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: So people don't owe you anything, and just because you spent the time to message them doesn't mean you deserve a response.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: And that's really I don't mean that in a mean way because it's awful when people don't respond, but you don't know what's going on in people's lives, you don't know they've just had a death in the family, you don't know that you know they're dealing with burnout.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: So I would say just if you are not expecting a response, it will really help you.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_00: And think what's gonna make them first of all realize oh, this person didn't write this with AI, they actually bothered to read my profile.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: This is written to me and not to every other generic person.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: So I would say something to you and say, Hey Elizabeth, love your podcast.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's great what you're doing with working mums.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_00: The last article that you wrote on XYZ was really interesting.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_00: Immediately, I've complimented you.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_00: I've told you that I bothered to read your profile.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_00: I used your name, and you're like, okay, let's see what else this person's got to say.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_00: So, in that first connection request, don't ask for something, just tell the person why you're connecting.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: Elizabeth, I'm connecting with you because I feel like we're on the same page about flexible working.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: Let's connect.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_00: You're like, okay, she just doesn't want anything, she just wants to connect.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: And build this is the challenge because for some people, they want you to get right to the point.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_00: So if you message me and said, Hey Michelle, how's your day?
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_00: Like, how was your Christmas?
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: How was this?
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: And you didn't know me, I'm like, get to the point.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_00: What do you want?
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas other people are like, button me up first.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_00: I want you to ask me some questions before you drop the question.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: So again, that's subjective on the person.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: You can't know that, can you?
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: Like, which which camp do you sit in?
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'd rather them be honest.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_01: And you know what else I hate as well?
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_01: This is like um voice notes from people I don't know.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I don't like voice notes from people I do know.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, I mean it's sort of like I've warmed up to what to voice notes from people I do know, but voice notes from people I don't know, and it it's like they like can ramble and they can take three minutes.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, you could have written this and I could have read it in 30 seconds.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: But yet some people would rather that.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_00: So you you you don't know, and you'd sit there overanalysing sometimes to figure out do this does this person want to have a chat first or not?
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: Do they have time?
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: So it's it's a mind filled, it is a lot, it's difficult.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_01: What about using LinkedIn to build a personal like brand?
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think that helps in getting a remote job?
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: 100%.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: 100% because you're more visible, like so.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: If you're going out there and people are seeing you a little bit like what's the first fizzy soft drink you think of when you're sort of coke, everyone does.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_00: Someone said Dr.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: Pepper the other day.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, What?
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: Wrong answer.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um but Coca-Cola, you might not even like the taste of it, you might not even drink it, but it's in your mind, it's imprinted because it's everywhere.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm not telling you to be as annoying as Coca-Cola, but if you are posting on LinkedIn, you're commenting on other people's posts, you have a clear value proposition, and you're like, I'm here, I'm here.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's hard to ignore you.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_00: So subliminally, if someone is looking for someone, you're going to be up there in a higher list than other people.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's like getting on the first two pages on Google.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: You're more present, you're more visible.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: And people can easily see when they drop on your profile, okay, your podcast is for working mums.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like it's like it's simple, and keeping it simple like that, like I offer this for this.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I know that can be difficult when people are multifaceted, they've got lots of different skill sets, they've done, you know, they're they're squiggly career as they call them because they don't fit into a box.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: And that's the challenge as well, because most employers, especially larger ones, for time purposes, they want to fit in for recruitment and time purposes, they want you to fit into a box.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: You are a marketing manager, you are an ops person, you are a salesperson.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: What do you mean you can do all of them?
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_00: I'm confused now.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: How do I figure this out?
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just going to go with person A, who's just been a marketing manager for the last five years, and it's easier for them.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_00: So it is challenging.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: It is challenging.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_01: What about what would you say to people?
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_01: I know we're talking about remote work, and this is obviously another, you know, layer, but these career pivoters, you know, that aren't fitting in the box.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_00: As long as they have clarity on where they sit and what they're looking for, yeah, and have a preference.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: Because if they don't, how is anyone else gonna know?
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm using the dating analogy again.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_00: If you rock up to a date and and you're like, so what it what is it that you're looking for?
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: We're like, oh, I'm looking for something casual, but I'm also wanting to get married next week uh and have children.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: You're like, whoa, this person doesn't know what they want.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: And it's a red flag.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you don't know what you want, then how am I gonna know if you're the right fit or not for this role that they usually have that they're trying to fill?
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: Now, if it's a startup and you know somebody and you can get an introduction and referral, that's when having this multifaceted experience can really play can really lay itself because you can say, Oh, Elizabeth, meet this person I've just I just met last week, he's really great at marketing, sales, and ops, and you're like, that's exactly who I need, get him in.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: And it's easier then because you as a as a solopreneur or a small or a founder of a small business, you you want someone that's going to be able to do lots of different things and that can just figure stuff out.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_00: And if I've referred them, you're more likely to be like, okay, well, she said he's great, so get him in.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: So we know that networking and you know, speaking to people and building relationships is the best way to get, you know, any job period, really, um, particularly remote work.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: What you know, obviously there will still be people that will do cold applications.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: If a job doesn't mention remote or, you know, it's just hybrid and you only want remote, would it still be worth applying and seeing?
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: Think back to your early 20s.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_00: If you're anything like me and you're going on a date and you speak to this person and you're looking for a serious relationship, and you're like, okay, I'm looking for a serious relationship, what are you looking for?
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just looking for something casual.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe I can change his mind, maybe things will be different with me.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_00: How often is that usually the case?
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: And how often can you usually change their mind?
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_00: Or are they actually just looking for that?
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: And they've told you right from the beginning, they're never going to change their mind.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_01: What do you think the direction of travel is regarding remote jobs?
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think we're going to see more or less?
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: I think we're going to see less of it in the larger organizations because of complications of legal and just the the shit show that is the bureaucracy.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_00: We're we are seeing and we're going to continue to see in my prediction that more and more startups, smaller companies, they're realizing all of the benefits that go with remote work and being and especially not just remote, but having access to global talent as well.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_00: So I feel like it's going to go in.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, we're we're we're Microsoft, we're you know, we're Skype, well not Skype anymore, but we're the big companies.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_00: We can afford to pay X, we have more money, but you need to come into the office.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_00: So people are gonna trade off.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_00: Am I gonna go for a higher salary, less flexibility?
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: And that's the that's the trade-off that's gonna come.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's interesting.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_01: I wonder as well, AI.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I guess that AI is gonna make more and more people entrepreneurs, smaller and smaller businesses who are probably, you know, I'm a small employer, but we don't have an office, we have remote staff.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um it was interesting what you said about global talent because there is a global marketplace and in the global sense, UK employees are quite expensive.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: How do you think that, you know, how do we square that as well?
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_01: In what sense?
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like I guess if people aren't, you know, that is always the counter-argument, isn't it, for remote work that, oh well, they could outsource it and you know, your job is more vulnerable.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_01: And actually, potentially it is, if you're competing against somebody in Thailand or the Philippines, I know there's a lot of talent there, and you know, they um their wages are a lot less than the UK, you know.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_01: How do I guess do we make it?
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I suppose we can have our cake and eat it and still be quite competitive in a global market.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_00: This might sound a little bit harsh, um but I don't mince my words.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_00: If you are getting looked over by someone who's not a native English speaker, you need to up your game.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: Interesting, yeah.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_00: If you're getting overlooked, because yes, there's going to be people that will do it cheaper than you, there's always going to be.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: Why are they overlooking you?
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_00: People know they might need to pay more for someone of a higher level.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: Up your game, you're missing something, whether that's like your communication skills, whether that's your value is not being perceived in a certain way, or you need to up your skills on AI.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_00: There's something that you're missing there because you're not just going to be squeezed out of the market because you're wanting too much money, especially when you've got a whole US market that uh, you know, 150k is nothing anymore.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um so yeah, there's the there's something you need to up your game on.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: And obviously, what trainings do you, you know?
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_01: I'm guess it's dependent on role, but is there any, you know, you advising your clients to upskill in AI and things like that?
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_00: But for the majority of the time, I'm actually with the people that come to me, the rebels as I call them, yeah tra retraining in something isn't where they need to focus their energies because they often, more often than not, they have all of the experience, qualifications that they need to get a remote role.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: It just isn't coming across.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_00: So what the reasons they come to me is not to make them better at what they do, because I can't, you know, make them a better project manager, a better developer, or a designer, but it's it's making making it so that they can sell and market themselves in a better way in the remote job market.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_00: That's where my specialism lies.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's not about it's not about making them better at what they do in their role, it's showing them this is how you package yourself, essentially.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, if you break it down to the crux of it, we're all selling ourselves when we're selling a service, selling a product, we're selling a bit of ourselves, whether that's our time, and showing them how to do that.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_00: Not trying to lie about things, but just rather than you know, Coca-Cola is not going to go and say, I am a carbonated drink with loads of sugar and caffeine.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, well, that doesn't sound very appealing.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_00: If you're like, oh, this is the most refreshing cold drink that's you've ever had drank in your life, still the same drink.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_00: You're just packaging it in a different way.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's interesting because I switch a lot of people think, Oh, I don't like sales, I don't like sales.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_01: And actually, I think we all salespeople.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and we have to be now.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, especially Gen Z are bloody good at this, and Gen Z are amazing at saying, I'm the best, look at all these skills, look at all these things I have.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_00: And this is often why ageism is being um it age ageism exists.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not gonna deny that it that it doesn't.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um however, one of the things in the differences in generations is this discomfort in putting ourselves out there and selling and marketing ourselves, whereas Gen Z generally are a lot better at it.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_00: So that I think that's part of the reason for this ageism bias.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, interesting.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_01: So, how do you work with clients then?
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_01: So, if someone's listening to this, they're wanting on a remote job, what services do you offer?
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_00: We offer a service from group coaching, a group coaching program.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_00: So it's all a 16-week program, the Remote Job Academy.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: And in all three programs, we take them from analysis, helping them figure out what it is they actually want to do remotely, what kind of, and even if the people are like, yep, I have a job title, I want to do this, I want to do that.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_00: Getting deeper into what that looks like, like what industries do you want to work for, what size of companies, what um, what type of work do you want to do on a regular basis?
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_00: What do you not want?
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_00: What are your non-negotiables?
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_00: We get really clear on what they want, and then we go into the right, okay, let's build a strategy in order to target those roles and those companies.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_00: None more of the spray and pray, but let's get precise on exactly which ones we're targeting and working on their CVs, cover letters, so the applications, what's needed in applications, you know, my background's in recruitment.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: I was gonna say your background's recruitment, isn't it?
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_01: So you do know what a CV needs to look like in a cover letter, etc.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I've worked across uh global markets as well, so it's not necessarily just the UK market, it's like what do they want from actual remote first companies?
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_00: Because I've worked as a recruiter in remote companies as well.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_00: So showing them the other side of this is how a recruiter actually looks at your CV.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I can be a bit brutal sometimes.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_00: Like I'll get the CV, I'm like, okay, Elizabeth, I don't I don't know you, let's pretend we've never met before.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_00: You're just a name on a screen because that's what you'll be to this other person.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, okay, um, no, I don't know what you do.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_00: Next, and it could be within seconds.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: I've just missed your profile just because it wasn't really easy to see in a few seconds how you aligned.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_00: So showing them how that works, working on CV, the LinkedIn, the networking piece, how to do that in events, how to show up, and then onto the interviewing section, how to actually attract people to you, and then how to answer questions in the right way when they're interviewing.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_00: So it can either be done in a group coaching program, one-to-one, and we even offer VIP do it for you, where you come to me and say, I just I I don't have time to search and apply.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_00: Do do it for me, and I'll show up for the interviews.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_00: So that's that's part of the service as well.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_00: Like that.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_01: That is appealing, isn't it?
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I guess you know, the people that do the actual coaching thing, their learning skills, you know, they'll use that throughout their career.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_00: Especially a lot of people end up going on to doing fractional or freelancing work because the skills they're learning is showing them how to sell their services essentially.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_00: And they can pick up clients that way.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_00: I've got I've got a um a woman who's living in France and she's from the US, and she's a fractional COO and fractional chief of staff.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_00: And now she's got more clients than she can handle, like because she's she knows how to put herself out there and she and that's all from just LinkedIn.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_01: Love that, and networking as well, I guess.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's something, isn't it, that everyone, you know, even if you're not looking for a job, it's worth keeping your network.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_00: And it doesn't have to be icky, it doesn't have to be some like beige buffet with a name tag.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, you could you could go to my friend set up this own event that was for people who wanted to move their dogs over from Singapore to Germany, like really, really niche.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think so.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_00: But that's network, you're you're creating a community.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't have to be I'm going to an event for a job.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_00: It is just like going, putting yourself out there, meeting new people and learning.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, well, where can people contact you, Michelle, and find out a little bit more about your sepsis?
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_00: So my website's remoterebellion.com, and they can contact me on LinkedIn or Instagram.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's all just remote rebellion or Michelle Coulson on LinkedIn and see see what we what we do, what we're about.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_00: I'm also I'm sharing, posting pretty much most days on tips on how to get remote work.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm usually having a bit of a rant about fake remote jobs as well and calling companies out because I don't have time for people that are wasting people's times.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, if they want to have a join in and have a bit of a rant with me, then feel free.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, well, thank you so much for shell for joining us today.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_01: We'll put all your links in the show notes.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for listening to another episode of the Work It Like a Mum podcast.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_01: If you enjoyed this episode, please rate, review, and subscribe.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_01: And don't forget to share the link with a friend.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_01: If you're on LinkedIn, please send me a connection request at Elizabeth Willet and let me know your thoughts on this week's episode.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_01: You can also follow my