Latest / Roast the Post Podcast / VP, Enterprise Sales: The Scorpion and the Frog at the River

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VP, Enterprise Sales: The Scorpion and the Frog at the River · Roast the Post Podcast

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, I'm Paul Austin-Menear and this is Roast the Post, the story behind the bullet points.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: Not to like oversell this, but I am super, super, super excited about this job ad.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's interesting.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: We're going to have some bigger picture stuff.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: To talk about with this job ad because it's serious.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: Now, like what I brought it to the table is it they operate this company operates in
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: the technology platform software space for nonprofits and for charities.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_00: So they kind of like pitch themselves as an operating system
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_00: for like donation operations for charities.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_00: And they count some some pretty big Charities and NGOs in their client list, which,
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: folks at home,
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: we're not going to like name this company or any of these big notable clients
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: because we don't name and shame.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's just not a part of what we do on the show.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: But these folks, like they're kind of in the middle of that.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: Kind of giving space, that third sector, NGOs.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I find it really interesting how they're bringing concepts
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: from for-profit enterprise companies and efficiencies,
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_00: it looks like, into that space to help make giving easier and more effective.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: So that's why we're talking about this today.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: I'm really excited.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a little bubbly about it.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: This is interesting.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: I find this fascinating.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: I sit on a board of a pretty well-known national charity.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so they do things like donation drives all the time.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm really interested to learn a little bit more about this too.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: I'm wondering if maybe the charity uses this service or platform.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, likely.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe, maybe.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: So folks, we're going to put a link in the show notes to the full job description, the job ad.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_00: If you want to hit that up, it'll be on the episode page.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_00: Follow along with us if you like.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_00: As usual,
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: we're going to start off with the Roasty profile,
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: just the profile of the company that we're taking a look at here.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_00: The job title is Vice President Enterprise Sales.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: The report to title, we don't know that.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_00: Company size 201 to 500 people.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: The industry that they're in is software development fundraising software.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: What do they do?
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: They're a donation platform helping nonprofits engage more supporters
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_00: and grow revenue by providing easy ways to increase conversion,
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_00: enable modern payment methods,
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: and personalize the giving experience for every donor.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_00: Head office locations in Brooklyn, New York, USA.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_00: The job location is remote anywhere in the U.S.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_00: Geographical operating area is global, and the job type is full-time.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's a permanent gig.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I'm going to read out the About Us section that they put into the job ad.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_00: It gives some pretty good context for what these folks are all about.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: We're a company.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: We're not naming and shaming.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: A global fundraising platform built to make donating to nonprofits fast,
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: seamless, and accessible to all.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: Every month, our technology powers tens of millions of dollars in donations across the globe.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_00: We focus on innovation that directly impacts results,
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_00: faster load times,
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: higher conversion rates, global payment support, and accessibility-first design.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_00: Our platform is trusted by many of the world's leading nonprofits,
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_00: including Client,
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_00: Other clients and a wide range of global NGOs with a 4.9 out of five rating
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: across top software review platforms were recognized not just for our impact,
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: but for the quality of the product that we deliver.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: So that's the background context for this.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I had a really tough time.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: Picking out just a few things that I found really interesting.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_00: The way this job ad is written,
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_00: there are like all job ads, you know, there are several sections, right?
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_00: There's a highlight section.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_00: There's an about us section.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_00: There's an about the role section,
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_00: the key responsibilities section,
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: a skills and qualifications section, a perks and benefits section.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_00: I had a tough time separating out things that in isolation were kind of interesting
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: to talk about.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm going to start with reading out all of the key responsibilities,
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_00: because I think that they all together kind of paint a picture of what this role is.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_00: So key responsibilities.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_00: Full bullet points, of course.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_00: Own enterprise revenue targets and drive approximately $25 million plus
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: in net new annual recurring revenue.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: Lead and mentor a global team of 20 to 40 plus enterprise account executives and sales leaders.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_00: Direct large complex deal cycles across diverse global markets.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: Define and execute the enterprise go to market strategy and account targeting framework.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_00: Build multi-threaded sales approaches to navigate and influence large complex organizations.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: Identify and capture white space within strategic accounts to maximize market share.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: Hire, develop, and retain high level enterprise sales leaders and managers.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_00: Coach teams on sophisticated deal strategy and high level executive engagement.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: Cultivate a culture of accountability, performance rigor, and continuous improvement.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_00: Partner with marketing to refine enterprise and marketing as capitalized.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_00: So they're talking about the team there, the marketing team.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_00: Partner with marketing to refine enterprise positioning and account-based marketing initiatives.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_00: Collaborate with product teams on roadmap alignment regarding payments,
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: compliance, and accessibility.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: Coordinate with customer success to ensure seamless post-sale handoffs and long-term expansion.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_00: Oversee forecasting accuracy, pipeline inspection, and rigorous deal governance.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_00: Drive disciplined execution across long and complex sales cycles.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: Utilize data-driven insights to guide strategic investment and operational decisions.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_00: That is the key responsibilities.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_00: That's a lot.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_00: And it's thick.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_00: There is a lot in there.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why I read the entire thing.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: Because you take all of these together.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_00: And it starts to really tell that story, right?
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_00: So one of the first things that stuck out for me is that this is a serious organization.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: And they know what they're after.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: And everything in here just screams capitalism.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_00: But they're serving the NGO sector, the third sector.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: I find that very interesting.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_00: Did you have any thoughts?
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: I had so many thoughts.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: Like you said, that's thick.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot going on there.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: My thoughts usually go to the people and people operations side of things.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's interesting that we do not know to whom this position reports,
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_01: but we do know that the lead and mentor people A team of 20 to 40 people.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_01: Big team.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_01: That's a huge team.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_01: Again, we don't know who this person reports to.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: And so even if these positions were senior level reporting into this VP
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_01: of enterprise sales, that's still a lot.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_01: 20 to 40 is mind-blowing to me.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: And not only that, but they're also, it says...
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: Hiring and developing and retaining, coaching whole teams.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_01: They also talk about cultivating a culture of accountability.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_01: I do like when responsibilities include some kind of call out to culture.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_01: So it is talking about a responsibility to the culture.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_01: And that depends on how many direct reports you have.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_01: And it's something like nine.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: That's good.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_01: Because you still have your day job to do and you have to manage people.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_01: And if you're going to do it effectively,
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_01: anything more than nine is just going to be a disaster.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_01: So 20 to 40 is, I think you even said 20 to 40 plus people team.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_00: It says 20 to 40 plus.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I've heard that number before, like nine.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_00: So one of my all-time favorite business books,
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_00: because that's the kind of nerd that I am, is a book called High Equip Management.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_00: And it's by one of the original founders of Intel.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: And in the book,
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: he really kind of advocates for treating your week like it's a production schedule.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_00: And he advocates for limiting these points of responsibility.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_00: So he says that at Intel, they did tons and tons and tons of testing and studies.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_00: And they really kind of tried to get into the question and find the answer
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_00: of what is the most that a single leader can kind of...
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_00: How many balls can they keep in the air?
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: And eight was what they found.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_00: And he said, doesn't necessarily mean eight people, means eight things.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_00: So eight programs, eight systems, eight people, or a mix thereof.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I kind of always followed that rule when I was in leadership roles,
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_00: and it seems to work out pretty well.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_00: So like nine, yeah, makes perfect sense to me.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_01: I agree.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_01: And like,
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_01: if you think about it,
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_01: there are now proven studies to validate the fact that having regular one-on-ones
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_01: with your team members is highly effective, like for engagement retention.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_01: So they're talking about,
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_01: you're going to coach these people,
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_01: you're going to hire, you're going to develop them, you're going to retain them.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_01: And part of that is to conduct regular one-on-ones.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_01: It is not possible for this person to have regular one-on-ones with 20 to 40 plus team members.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's just going to happen.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_01: But yet one of the responsibilities is to retain them,
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: which is if it's named, it means it's named for a reason.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_01: It means that there's a retention problem and they want this person to help with that.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_01: So never forget that it's listed for a reason.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_01: And so This person in their capacity to be a people manager and
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: a people leader is not set up for success.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_01: And it's written out for you.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like they're telling you right there that you're not set up for success.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_01: But it also made me think about this,
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: the concept of like accountabilities versus responsibilities,
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_01: because some of the other duties listed are Our duties, yes,
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_01: it says key responsibilities,
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: but there are duties that potentially this person is accountable for,
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_01: but not responsible for.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_01: So they could be then assigning people within their team to take on these other duties.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: At the end of the day,
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: they're accountable for the results,
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_01: but they don't actually have to be the person doing those things.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_01: So that's an important distinguishment when we're looking at responsibilities
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: in Job postings that I think we haven't really talked about too much,
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_01: but this is a situation in which I'm like,
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: oh yeah,
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's because they're setting them up for
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_01: an impossible people management task.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe this is a situation where they're accountable for these things,
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_01: but they might not be the one kind of in the trenches, in the weeds doing that work.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: So I just found it interesting.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_01: Like we just spoke for a really long time about These key responsibilities,
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_01: because it is so, it's a massive undertaking.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_01: And it's really, really surprising to me.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: I would really hope that this position has the authority,
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_00: and you would think that they would,
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: given that it's a vice president level role,
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: like right below the C-suite sort of thing in most organizations.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: I would hope that they have the authority to restructure the business unit.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: And create more direct management points to kind of like disperse that.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: So the VP isn't managing, God, 40 relationships, can you imagine?
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_00: And that's one of the first things that I'd be doing.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_00: I really hope that this person has that authority.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: If they don't, they're poached, like they're dead in the water.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and you made me think of something else too,
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_01: like that sometimes there needs to be a section...
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: In certain job postings,
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_01: especially like at a higher level like this, that's like outcomes, right?
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_01: Like what are the outcomes?
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_01: And then you can kind of tie things in.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_01: So jobs like this,
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: like VP level with these huge responsibilities, I think need a different design.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think a standard, the same template you would use for like a project manager.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think that you can, it's not transferable to me.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's a different...
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_01: Template all together.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I think this is exactly the reason why.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it said the very first bullet point,
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: right, was drive 25 million plus in net new annual recurring revenue.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's an outcome driven thing, right?
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's one of your goals.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: You got to get on that.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_01: Fascinating.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_00: Carrying on, the next couple of things, and this is in skills and qualifications.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: There is less in here that I kind of gravitated towards,
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_00: but there are two bullet points that I want to call it.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_00: The first is proven track record of closing and scaling enterprise deals
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: with 100,000 to 500,000 ACV or more,
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_00: average contract value for the folks at home ACV.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's not apple cider
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_01: vinegar?
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's not apple cider vinegar,
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: but hey,
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: if these folks are getting into the apple cider vinegar game,
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: they're buying $500,000 worth of apple cider vinegar to resell more power to them.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_01: But I think that's
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: non-core to their business.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_01: It sounds like it.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: So this person needs to be able to demonstrate that they're closing big deals,
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_00: like big ticket deals for this industry,
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_00: especially given that this is a payment provider type sort of thing.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: And typically business models for checkouts,
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_00: payment providers, whatever, relies on a percentage of cart.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: So your $500,000 deal might mean that that's only 3% or 4% of
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: the total revenue going through the system.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: The other bullet point that stood out for me was exceptional executive presence and
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: the ability to influence C-level stakeholders.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_00: So that does tell us that there's a C-suite and some sort of governance structure.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_00: I found it interesting that they're saying flat out in here,
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: you need to be able to manipulate your bosses.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's interesting.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_01: That is kind of the call out.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I do like that you pointed out,
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_01: like sometimes even though The reporting structure isn't named.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: There are ways to try to figure out, to piece that story together, like you pointed out.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: So there is a C-suite.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think that's interesting.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that I'm so exhausted by the term executive presence.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's so outdated.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_01: And any of us,
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_01: just take one moment to think about executive presence and what kind
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_01: of image are you conjuring up?
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: And it's going to be like some...
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_01: White.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: Middle-aged white dude in a suit.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_01: And so,
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_01: and I think that an executive presence and professionalism and all those terms need
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_01: a rebrand and a rethink and a redesign because it's just so old fashioned.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: But I get what they're saying.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: I get what they're saying.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_01: This is like,
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_01: we're talking about like a systemic problem,
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: which we sometimes get into in These conversations,
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_01: but for the purpose of this specific job posting, I understand what they're saying.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, you're completely accurate that there's a call out right then and there.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I would call that?
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_00: Instead of executive presence, I would use the phrase organizational gravitas.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I really like that.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: I want that on like a baseball cap or something.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: All right, now I know what I'm getting you for Christmas.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: I think this is what I'm talking about, right?
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not just like, oh,
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: we're going to name it something else, but it's still essentially the same thing.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's not actually.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_01: The way that you describe it actually makes me think of it in a completely different way.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's the impact of words, right?
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: Like words matter.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_00: Even if you're kind of for folks at home,
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: if you're sitting around kind of thinking about your employer brand
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: or your personal brand on your resume,
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_00: choice of words and the narrative that you convey, it doesn't matter.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like it will give someone on the other end a completely different perspective.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: On you or on your organization based on the words that you choose.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: So it bears a little bit of scrutiny and a little bit of thought what you pick.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to carry on.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: Perks and benefits.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm going to read out this entire section, too,
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: because like the key responsibilities section,
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: there's stuff here and it all kind of together paints a bit of
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: a picture independently.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_00: Not so much.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_00: So perks and benefits.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: Bullet points, of course.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: Health, dental,
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: and vision insurance covered at 100% for employees,
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: 80% for employee plus dependents, and 70% for employees plus family.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: FSA and HSA spending account.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: FSA, you don't even know what FSA means.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: HSA is Healthcare Spending Account.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: Do you know FSA?
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: No, I know what FMLA is.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_01: I know what ACV is now.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so we got some acronyms.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: The next bullet point is 20 days of vacation,
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_00: five sick days,
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: 11 company holidays,
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_00: plus an additional one floating holiday,
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_00: 401k plan with company match,
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: 100% company paid short-term disability,
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: long-term disability, basic life insurance, and AD&D.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know what AD&D is.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_01: Accidental death and dismemberment.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: FSA is flexible spending account.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: Interesting.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_00: So maybe that,
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_00: I guess,
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_00: FSAs might cover stuff that isn't technically healthcare,
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: like paramedical, massages, stuff like that.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_00: Paid parental leave, 12 weeks for primary caregivers, six weeks for secondary caregivers.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: Generous home office stipend to support your remote workspace.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_00: Annual professional development stipend to support your growth.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: Workshops, courses, seminars, and brackets.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_00: Feritable giving program and volunteer time off with registered nonprofits.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: That's what they have in perks and benefits.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_00: So like, 8.8 bullet points.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of stuff in there, though.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of effective stuff in there.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_01: I do like the tie back to the culture of the organization and what it is
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_01: that they do by having those paid volunteer days or whatever.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_01: That's nice.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_01: It talks about having like a generous allowance here and a generous allowance there.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't say what it is.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_01: And this is another situation I'm guessing where maybe at a certain level of
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: the organization, the allowances are bigger.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_01: And so they don't necessarily want to name it because it might make other people feel bad.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_01: Because otherwise,
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_01: the reason I'm saying that is because otherwise you should just say how much it is.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_01: Anytime you offer anything like that,
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: it's in your best interest to showcase that,
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_01: to brag a little bit about what it is that you have to offer.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_01: So in this case, they're saying they have it.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: They're not saying how much it is.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_01: And to me,
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_01: that can only mean that they don't want other levels of the organization
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_01: to know how much a VP gets, maybe, or maybe it's just an oversight.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: What do you think about four weeks of vacation for VP level?
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: Four weeks of vacation.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: This is for the US,
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_00: that's pretty good to start with,
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_00: even though it is a senior level position like the statistics
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: that I most recently read on this is that Most U.S. workers might use two, sort of.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_00: They leave a lot of vacation time on the table, and we're not much better in Canada.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: We leave a lot of vacation time on the table.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: So saying four weeks to start?
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's okay.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I wouldn't be, especially in the U.S., I wouldn't be advocating for more.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I wouldn't be going in and saying, I need six weeks or else I'm going to walk.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's unrealistic for the culture of that country.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: Like, it's just not going to line up.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: They probably could have gotten away with a little bit less and left that as
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: a negotiating point if they'd so choose in two.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_00: But they're just kind of putting it on the table, I think.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, I don't think that this person would, considering their responsibilities.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_00: No, they can't take four weeks.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_01: You're not taking four weeks of vacation.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_01: That's interesting.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_01: And also to the reason why we weren't sure about some of these acronyms is
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_01: because we are in
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: Canada and we just don't have the same benefits and terminology
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_01: for things like this.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yep, that's true.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna round, that's pretty much the end of this job ad.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's short and it packed a lot of stuff into it.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_00: It was on point.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna end though reading their inclusivity statement, an accessibility statement.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: We are an equal opportunity employer.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: We celebrate diversity and are committed to creating an inclusive environment for all employees.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: We do not discriminate on the basis of race, color,
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: religion, gender,
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: sexual orientation,
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_00: gender identity,
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: or expression, age,
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: national origin,
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: disability,
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_00: or any other characteristic protected by applicable law in the countries
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: where we operate.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_00: That's their accessibility and inclusion statement.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: Very standard, it sounds like.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: Do they talk about the use of AI or anything like that?
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_00: They do not talk about the use of AI, no.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_01: And they don't talk about if you need accommodations to proceed with the interview process?
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: They do not.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_00: That surprised me a little bit given that accessibility statement.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_00: I was kind of surprised that there was nothing about accommodations in there.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_00: I was also a little bit surprised that they didn't explicitly call out veteran status.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: Because a lot of these statements in the US,
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_00: like they put veteran status up there like front and center.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_00: These folks didn't for some reason.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, interesting.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, veteran status is a common thing in the United States.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_01: But again,
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_01: like there's,
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_01: that's a very like boilerplate accessibility and accommodation statement,
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: but there is no actual like steps that you could take if you required any of
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_01: the support in which they claim to, you know, champion.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_01: So that's, yeah, that's really interesting to me.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: Missing piece for sure.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_00: Missing piece.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: So this brings us,
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_00: Jen, to once again my favorite part of the episode where we're guessing the salary.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: But there's a twist on why I'm particularly excited about
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_00: the salary guessing game this time around.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_00: So what do you think this is worth?
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's a U.S. job.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_00: Salary is in USD.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_00: Senior level position.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: Lots of people management responsibility,
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: significant revenue making and getting responsibility.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_00: What do you think that's worth?
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_01: Again, this is the part that I dislike the most.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm thinking in Canadian dollars, so pardon me for that.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm just going to maybe I can then do the conversion online after the fact.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it sounds like a pretty established organization as well.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_01: At the top of the posting,
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: you had mentioned some names that were not shared
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_01: because they're recognizable names.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_01: So that tells me that there's potentially, yeah, some good partnerships here.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_01: So they're successful, they're doing well.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like we said, the job posting, the responsibilities are thick.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of direct reports, you said all of this.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_01: I'm saying all this because I'm like trying to think about it as I talk it through
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_01: the United States.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know, if I were to guess in Canadian, I'd probably say like maybe 275 to like 325.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_01: You are way
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_01: I'm under?
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_00: In Canadian?
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_00: No, the posted salary range is US $430,000 to $450,000, which works out to $565,85.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_00: Like a Canadian billionaire, basically.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: OTE.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_00: And this is where the twist comes in.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_00: Because OTE does not mean base salary.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_00: OTE is on target earnings.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_00: So they're,
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_00: they're advertising a salary range,
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_00: including all performance bonuses for this role and the team and commissions.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_00: They've bundled it together.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_01: So then what's the base salary?
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_00: No clue.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_00: Hence the twist.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: Whoa, this is interesting.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_01: So they're basically saying that if everything goes right,
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_01: this is what you're going to be earning.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_01: But they're not actually saying if none of this goes right or if only some of this,
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_01: like what is the base salary?
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_01: We don't know what the base salary is.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_00: No clue.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_00: They do not list it.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_00: You could have been.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: You very well could have been for the base salary.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_00: And this...
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: I've never seen this before,
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_00: but through my research,
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_00: it is talked about as quite common in very senior level sales leadership positions
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_00: in organizations that are very oriented around acquiring revenue.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_00: So like it's basically a sales organization thing.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: I think here's where I...
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I don't like the way that it's listed for obvious reasons.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's very dishonest and like you're entering,
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_01: this is like the job posting is the first kind of foray into this relationship
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_01: that you might potentially have with this employer.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: And it starts with like, they're holding all the cards basically.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_01: And you don't even get to know like something as basic as what I would earn in this position.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, But I also think that when we go back to some of the responsibilities and one
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: of their responsibilities is to retain and to coach and
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_01: to mentor this really large team,
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: where do you think that's going to be on their list of priorities when this kind
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_01: of thing is on the table?
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's going to be really, really, really low.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_01: It's going to come after all of the other things.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_01: So then we go back to, well,
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_01: it's no wonder Retention is listed as one of the responsibilities
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_01: because they probably have a retention problem and they have a retention problem
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_01: because this role is focused entirely on sales.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_00: And the way the way that it's written in the particular that part in
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_00: the key responsibilities section,
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_00: it really gives me the sense That this person is going to be personally leading
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_00: the deal flow and the negotiations for the highest ticket accounts.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_00: Like they're not a player coach.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_00: This person is a salesperson who also happens to have
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_00: the other baggage dragging along behind them.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that you're probably right that that is the root of a retention problem
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_00: because like we've talked about on the show before, right?
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_00: If you write something down in a job ad,
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: it's because it's been a notable thing in the organization.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like you don't just manufacture things in job ads and say,
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_00: well, you know, maybe this could happen.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, no, stuff has happened.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_00: We need to prevent it or we need to encourage it.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_00: Let's write about it.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_01: We need someone who looks at that and says, oh, I've done that or I could do that, right?
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_01: You don't put like fast-paced environment for a job posting for a role that is not
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_01: in a fast-paced environment, right?
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's there for a reason.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's telling you a story.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_01: So, okay, that's really interesting.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's...
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_00: And bigger picture,
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_00: this for me was particularly interesting because it is so heavy on the sales,
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_00: sales, sales, capitalism, but they're serving the third sector.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_00: There have to be kind of...
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_00: Ethical conflict, ethical things that happen with people in the organization there.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_00: You can imagine that these folks who are incentivized,
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_00: and it's probably not just this VP,
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_00: there's probably senior sales leaders kind of working with this VP
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_00: who are also incentivized OTE.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: So does that give them incentive to do what is right for their clients?
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_00: And by extension,
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_00: the people who are giving money to their clients,
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: donations,
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_00: or does that incentivize them to close the biggest ticket deals that they can,
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_00: the most frequently that they can?
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_00: The incentive structure here is a bit troubling for me.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_01: I agree.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's probably my least favorite part of the entire posting.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_00: So folks, we're going to go into the intermission.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_00: Jen and I are going to skim through the job ad and come back to the table
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_00: with our scoring and wrap up that advice.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_00: Stay tuned.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_00: All right, folks, we are back.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_00: Both Jen and I have gone through the job ad, and it's time to kind of come to the conclusion.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_00: We've got scores.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_00: We've got some wrap-up comments.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_00: Jen, thinking about the job ad itself, what would you score it out of 10?
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_01: So the job at itself,
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_01: it's not too,
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_01: it's pretty,
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_01: it's pretty average,
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_01: you know, like it's got all the sections and everything that it needs to.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_01: What I liked was that it talks about the organization as most do,
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_01: like about us, but it ties back to the mission and the culture of the organization.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_01: In more subtle ways throughout the job posting.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_01: So for example,
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_01: we talked like one of the perks and benefits charitable giving program
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_01: and paid volunteer time off with registered nonprofits.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that speaks to the culture of the organization.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_01: So it doesn't have to be like, here's who we are culturally.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_01: You can define that and share that story throughout the job posting.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that they did that a couple of times.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I actually really liked that.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I think more companies could benefit from that.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_01: What I didn't like was I think for a senior role like this, the typical template doesn't work.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I mentioned that earlier on.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_01: So you don't want to design a job posting for this VP role the same way you would.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like to me, it's no different in format than it would be for like An operations coordinator.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm not saying that there's less value in being an operations coordinator,
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_01: but I'm saying that the complexity and scope of this role,
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_01: it's just fundamentally greater.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_01: And so it does require a little bit more information,
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_01: like some of the outcomes,
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_01: some of the,
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_01: I don't,
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_01: even some of the KPIs or whatever,
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_01: what your First few weeks,
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_01: months look like,
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_01: like there's just a different way to design a job posting
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_01: for some role this intensive, I guess.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_01: So I didn't like that.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_01: And they didn't name how they would be accessible.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_01: They didn't talk about whether or not they use AI.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's not a requirement in all States and provinces,
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_01: but it's one of those things, again,
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_01: we say time and time again,
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_01: don't wait until you're forced to do it, just start doing it.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_01: If you're using AI,
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_01: say you're using AI,
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_01: explain how it's being used,
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_01: how information is stored,
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_01: because I think we all have the right to know that at this point,
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_01: because it's like everyone's doing it anyway,
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_01: so you might as well be upfront about it.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_01: So long story short, I gave the job posting itself 7.5 out of 10.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_00: How about the role design?
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_00: Thinking about everything that's in there about like the structures,
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_00: the sustainable, what does that look like for you?
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_00: What would you score that part of it?
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that one I gave it a little bit less.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_01: I'm always going to dock points if you don't explain who this role is reporting to
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_01: because you're really not giving the individual a good picture of what to expect
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_01: and like where your authority lies.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_01: You should be able to look at a job posting and understand, oh,
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_01: I understand that I'm going to have this structure,
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_01: which means that I will likely have this type of authority,
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_01: decision making influence, like that kind of thing.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_01: So it's lacking for a bunch of things.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_01: We talked about how it's pretty much going to be impossible for this person to do their job.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_01: And so for those reasons, I gave it a five out of 10.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_01: I think that this is pretty par for the course.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_01: I think this is how a lot of these structures are set up.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not again,
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_01: not about naming and shaming or anything like that,
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_01: but it just isn't going to be done.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's going to be impossible to do this job in a good way.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_01: And they talk about having paid parental leave and vacation.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_01: Well, good luck using any of that because your life is going to be this job.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_01: And so some redesign needs to be done in order to actually make it a sustainable job.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_01: So 5 out of 10 for job design.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there's certainly some question marks in the job ad.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_00: This is going to be one of the episodes where we diverge pretty significantly.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_00: So on the job ad, and it pains me so much to say this because the job ad is quite well written.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_00: I gave it a four.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_00: And the big thing driving that is Is the lack of transparency around the salary.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_01: Like I realized that I didn't even talk about the salary.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_01: I did job design.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_01: That was my thought process for job design versus
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_01: because they put something right better than places who don't put anything.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_01: But for me, my thinking was it lowered it.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I didn't say that.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so sorry.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_01: I'm totally railroading your thoughts.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_01: But that's why it brought down the job design,
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_01: because to me, I attributed that to part of the job design.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_01: So yes, absolutely, that's boo-boo to them.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and in my mind,
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_00: and
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_00: I read that that's common in sales organizations for senior positions,
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_00: listing your compensation out as on-target earnings and just kind
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_00: of bucketing all together.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_00: But it's deeply dishonest.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_00: You know what you're going to pay for a base.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_00: So why not put that in the job ad?
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_00: Because the way that this is structured,
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_00: you might as well say to the person,
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_00: hey, why don't you go sell penny stocks in a boiler room?
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_00: Because that type of pump and dump It was a little bit more honest, right?
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_00: Like this was very dishonest.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_00: I did not like that.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_00: And fundamentally,
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_00: like earnings and salary is going to be one of the things
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_00: that people weigh most seriously,
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_00: especially a sales leader, especially in a senior position.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're telling them like, yeah,
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_00: you might make a half mil, but nothing else, swing and a miss, swing and a miss.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_00: I agree with you too that the job ad tried to take a round or a square peg
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_00: and put it into a round hole.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_00: And it was just,
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_00: it was organized kind of the same as every other job,
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_00: even though this is not every other job.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_00: One thing that I thought was particularly important
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_00: that I found missing here were comments about authority.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_00: Because we both talked about how like, hey,
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_00: the structure of this job and this business unit,
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_00: the 20 to 40 plus thing, that's weird.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_00: That's weird.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_00: I would wanted to have seen something on you have the authority to A, B, or C.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I realized that's not common in job ads,
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_00: but there are vice president level roles that are basically just empty titles,
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_00: Like everybody knows a vice president who is a vice president
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_00: and they're really like a very high level individual contributor.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_00: They're not actually executive leadership.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_00: They're not actually senior leadership in a functional way as it's kind of supposed to be.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I don't think that this job is like that,
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_00: but I would have still liked to see something on authority because of kind of
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_00: that question.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_00: Because one of the first things I'd want to do is I'd want to restructure
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_00: that entire business unit,
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_00: organize it differently,
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_00: not lay people off,
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_00: but organize it differently and change a lot of stuff from what was kind
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_00: of listed out here.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_00: On the job, role design, that part of it, I also kind of gave it a 5 out of 10.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_00: For me, this was, it was deeply flawed.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's this, it was very well written.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's very logical.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_00: Like I get in my mind what they want this person to do.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_00: Generate revenue and create a culture of people who generate revenue.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_00: But there's a lot in here that doesn't quite work.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_00: This is going to be a role that is incredibly challenging.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_00: Mind you, high compensation.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_00: That's probably a part of it.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's going to be incredibly challenging to be successful in this role.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_00: And that's because of the way the job was designed.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's no discussion in here.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_00: And this is where an org, kind of an org chart and a report too.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_00: And a bit of a sense of the structure would be super helpful.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_00: You don't have any of that in this role design.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_00: Like you don't get a sense of that.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_00: It's kind of weird to me.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe that's more of a job ad thing than it is a role design thing.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_00: But I still think this one's going to be a bit of a struggle.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_00: Now there's kind of a third category.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_00: And this isn't something that we talk about in every episode.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_00: But I think that the organizational incentives in this sales unit are deeply, deeply troubling.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_00: The way that this is written,
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_00: it's pretty clear that the incentives are around revenue at all costs.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_00: And the way that this is written,
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_00: it says to me like,
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_00: and if we think about this,
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_00: They want this person to drive $25 million in net new revenue.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_00: And they're willing to pay $450,000, give or take at the high end for that.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_00: That tells me that the operating margins in this company are pretty high.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_00: Because think about like, this is a 201 to 500 person company.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_00: So on top of this VP sales, they've also got all of those other mouths to feed.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_00: That says the operating margins are really, really good.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_00: This is a sales organization.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_00: The incentives are going to get these people driving revenue at all costs.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_00: That ain't good, especially if you're working with NGOs and charity.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_01: I agree.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe we need to have a new category added.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_00: We'll just design like a rubric or a matrix or something where we grade job ads on
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_00: a 20 point scale and it'll take half an hour.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's it.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_01: Just that.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think that we can consider this job ad roasted.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for joining us, everybody.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_00: We will see you next week.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_01: Bye.
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_01: Glad you could spend some time with us on Roast the Post, the story behind the bullet points.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_01: If today's episode helped you make sense of the hiring landscape,
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_01: or at least feel less alone in navigating it, don't forget to subscribe.
• 43:45
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• 43:49
  SPEAKER_01: with your sanity.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_01: We're always looking for interesting job postings to break down.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_01: So if you've got one, whether it's surprisingly good or impressively confusing, send it in.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_01: Listener submissions keep things spicy.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_01: Follow that link in the show notes for more.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks again for listening.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_01: Catch us next time when we take on another posting that definitely has something to say.