Latest / The Imperfect Impulse w/Bree O'Connor / S 3 Ep 9: Rocky v. The Room

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S 3 Ep 9: Rocky v. The Room · The Imperfect Impulse w/Bree O'Connor

• 0:05
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Imperfect Impulse with Bree O'Connor.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, I'm your host, Bree O'Connor.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to dive right into it today because I have a small, not-so-confession to make.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: And that is, I love Rocky.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: Ever since I first saw this movie when I was a kid,
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: I've watched it probably a gajillion times,
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: if that's a number I could reach in watching movies.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I wouldn't necessarily put it in my top five films ever,
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: because it's not that kind of movie.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's a bit popcorn-y, but I mean that in the best way.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: If it's on, if it crosses my path, I'm going to watch it.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: If it pops up into my consciousness, I'm going to watch it.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: If I happen to be somewhere where it's on, I'm going to watch it.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: If it shows up in my feed somewhere, I'm going to watch it.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's just such an enjoyable film and Rocky is such an enjoyable character.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: It hits like all the right emotional notes.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: The beats are spot on for a boxing story.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: And boxing stories are, boy, they are a standard trope throughout 20th century media from...
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: Loads of stage plays that looked at some hardscrabble boxers who let themselves get
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_00: the crap beat out of them for cash.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_00: There are a lot of boxer stories and the boxer is such a lovely archetype
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: and I think Rocky does something interesting and very human with that archetype
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: and I love it.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: But what makes this story even better is the meta story behind Rocky.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_00: If you don't know this story already,
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_00: you're probably going to become aware of this story through
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: the upcoming film release, I Play Rocky.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_00: Just to give you a brief overview,
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: what's stunning about it is that there is a parallel between Rocky's chosen battle
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: and chosen struggle and the struggle that Sylvester Stallone went through
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: to get it made.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: The character Rocky and Sylvester Stallone bet on themselves.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: And Stallone had written this picture and Because he wanted a role
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: that not only did he see clearly, but that the role saw him back.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: There's a mirror in between Rocky and Stallone that the two just meld together perfectly.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_00: But here's the thing,
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: is that the studio execs,
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: everyone he went to,
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_00: really loved the script, but they wanted to put a star in there.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: And Stallone doubled down and said, no, you can't have it.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: I play Rocky.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: You know, spoiler, it's in the title of the film.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure you could figure it out if you didn't know already.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_00: We hear all kinds of stories about artists who really make a big bet on themselves
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_00: and who hold tight to their ideals,
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: who don't budge, who set a goal, and then they go out and reach it.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_00: We have a lot of these career origin stories,
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: much like Stallone's,
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_00: where an artist will Will go in and refuse to compromise who and what they are
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: in order to make the art that best reflects them.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_00: Wow!
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: When you think about it,
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: if you have artistic leanings at all,
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_00: I think you understand the pressure to hold tight to your vision when other people
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_00: who have careers, who have money, who have resources...
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_00: How does an artist filter out that kind of noise?
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: In order to stay true to their vision.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_00: That all sounds super noble, right?
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_00: That's how we want to envision ourselves as artists.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: We want to think that our vision is so strong and so true that we can hold tight
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_00: to it and fight for it and that's absolutely marvelous.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: But I've seen artists who have fought for a misguided vision,
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: who have not created the same caliber of work that Stallone did with Rocky.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_00: So what is it that lets an artist know when they have something that is that kind of value?
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_00: certainly if you have execs knocking down your door Offering you more and more
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_00: and more money, well, then you know you're in a position to make demands.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_00: That's a realization you grow to.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_00: You have to get in that first door.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_00: And that first door,
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: if you are not sure of yourself and sure of what you've created
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: or what you could potentially create,
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_00: You could end up giving away this door and that first door because it's
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_00: a stepping stone.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, you learn along the way how much, you know, you have if you hold out.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_00: But too many of us are like, hey, this is a first offer.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_00: I may not get another one.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to grab onto it.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_00: It takes a lot both to have the spine down.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_00: To be able to wait out that first offer,
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_00: but also an incredible amount of self-awareness in order to have faith
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: in what you have.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: And that's the deeper level that I really want to get to today.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: Doubling down just to double down, it's not always the best way to go.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: If you don't have that vision to back it up,
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_00: You also have to have an incredible amount of self-awareness in order to be able
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_00: to choose collaborators.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: It isn't just faith in yourself.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: And you're not the only one there.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_00: And invariably, in every single project, there's going to be moments of self-doubt.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_00: There's going to be snafus.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_00: There's going to be all kinds of things that go wrong because that is...
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: That's kind of how the creative process works.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_00: It rarely goes perfectly.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_00: There's always a something.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_00: There's always a problem you have to solve in a way you couldn't foresee.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: You can't see around all the corners.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_00: So what does it take to know that you are capable of making those assessments?
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_00: That you can trust yourself to make those assessments.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_00: Part of it is not being too precious.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_00: Being able to see that your work can always be improved upon.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: I can't tell you how many times I've heard talks with dramaturgs and directors
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_00: about how Shakespeare's plays, several of them are problems to direct.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_00: That they're not perfection.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_00: And he is held up as one of the greatest dramatists to ever walk the planet.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_00: So if Shakespeare's work isn't perfect, you gotta bet yours isn't either.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_00: But how do you know that you can bet on it?
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_00: Well, number one, your work should never be static.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: Some things feel a little different off the page than when you write it.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_00: You can write it in perfect prose that sounds absolutely wonderful in your head,
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_00: but when you put it in another actor's mouth,
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: it doesn't make the same kind of sense.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't have the same kind of intention.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_00: Hopefully,
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: that actor makes that intention better,
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: can find things in it that even you didn't see, Now that is the sweet spot.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_00: That right there is the magic of collaboration.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_00: When one of your colleagues can take what you've created,
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: run with it,
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_00: add to it, and make it richer and full of way more depth than even you intended.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_00: One of the pitfalls is that if your vision is too rigid and you're striving
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_00: to make it precisely beat by beat,
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_00: moment by moment,
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_00: precisely what you have in your head,
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: you are missing out on the depth that another perspective can add.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I like to think about painters, how
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: They might be able to create a lovely scene that you look at it and you're like,
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_00: hey, that's the picture of a lake.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's beautiful.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_00: I like the trees.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_00: I like, you know, I like everything about it.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's great.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_00: And then they will layer paints over it and all of a sudden things start to come out
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: and they have more perspective and more depth and it's deeper
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_00: and suddenly there's reflections in the lake.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: You can see
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_00: You can see a little wake of a boat that had just gone by that you hadn't seen
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: before because the little whitecaps weren't there.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_00: You can see where little drops may have caused ripples.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: You can see that the forest is much thicker than you thought.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_00: That each addition to the project adds...
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: Depth, texture, reality, and richness.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_00: You don't get that if you're holding on so tightly to exactly what you think that this thing is.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_00: So that takes a lot of self-knowledge and a lot of understanding about Who you are
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_00: as an artist and who your collaborators are and to be able to assess
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: the work outside of your own personal investment.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_00: That's what makes a great piece of work.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: You can double down on a singular vision
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_00: and you can probably make something pretty decent or Absolutely comically awful.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: Let's take The Room as an example.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: There is definite charm to that movie,
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: but it is absolutely lacking in any self-awareness whatsoever.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: If you haven't seen The Room, it's kind of a cult film.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's very earnest.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's very heartfelt.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: But it is comically missing emotional reality.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_00: And is clearly an ego piece for the filmmaker.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, if you've seen... Why can't I think of the name?
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's... Was it The Disaster Artist?
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_00: About the making of the room.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's a little sort of biopic.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: And...
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's not quite a biopic,
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_00: but it's not unlike I Play Rocky in that it's the story of the film and
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_00: the filmmaker.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: And it has an appreciation for the dogged persistence of this filmmaker
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: who now claims that the whole film was ironic and that he,
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: you know, I meant to do that.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's hard to walk away from success no matter how you get it.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't mean to be disparaging because I know what it takes to put your work out there.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: And to have gotten it made and finished in the first place is pretty amazing.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_00: To be having midnight showings across the country for a really dedicated and loving audience.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: Albeit maybe loving it for reasons that don't particularly feel so good.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: And the fact that I'm using it as an example here is,
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: well, it kind of hurts my soul a little bit.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_00: But at the same time, it's so shockingly unaware of itself.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: Can't quite see why,
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: like the famous scene where he's mumbling to himself and he comes up on the roof
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_00: and he's mad and,
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: and I forget what he's mumbling, but he's definitely having an inner moment.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_00: And then all of a sudden snaps out of it and is like, oh, hi, Mark.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: And the moments are not emotionally bridged at all.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_00: Partially because it lacks any awareness of how people actually behave.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: That we don't.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: That we don't just snap out of that moment into like,
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_00: oh I'm ready to change my attitude completely on, you know, just because I saw you.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: Without really any circumstances to sort of back that up.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's why you'll see people,
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: if you, like once again, if you haven't seen the movie I'm surprised.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: But, you know,
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: if you have,
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_00: you definitely know that Ohai Mark really stands out in our imagination
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: because it just hits this moment of unreality for us.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: And it sparks, like, uncomfortable mirth.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: It's just, like, almost painful.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's the...
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: That's the best that could have turned out is that it was so earnest and charming
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_00: in its almost innocence, right?
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_00: It has a certain innocence to it that is sweet in its own way.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: And there's a vulnerability there.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: But even that, like, if there wasn't that vulnerability, it would just be painful, right?
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: Like there wouldn't be anything to latch on to because that film makes no sense at all.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: Be able to understand how to assess your work.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: How to trust your own body instincts to know if there is a level of truthfulness
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_00: that is coming through your work.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_00: And if you don't have that awareness How do you build a team around yourself
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: to make sure that you are dotting all your I's,
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: crossing all your T's, and creating the best work possible?
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that self-awareness,
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_00: the good news is self-awareness is something that you can work on,
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_00: that you can build,
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: and you can build to create a better view of your own blind spots and
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: And even your own strengths so that you can tilt your work to the things
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: that you do really well and have support for the things that you don't do as well.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: That's the joy of communal creation.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: But in order to take those stands,
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_00: you first must know yourself and your work in an almost brutal fashion.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I'm using brutal not as a, boy,
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: you should be super self-critical because it's not about judgment or criticism
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: or dislike or any of those things.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's about taking the emotional component out of it to be able
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: to see more objectively what is in front of you.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_00: So with that said,
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: building your self-awareness and your self-assessment skills are vital so that when
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_00: that moment arises where you have to choose whether or not you are going
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_00: to double down on yourself,
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: bet on yourself, bet on the work, that you're making a good bet.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: I have a self-directed course for assessing your work as a playwriter, screenwriter.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's called Listen to Your Script.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I put it together some months ago and I have decided to retool
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_00: this course.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: So I'll make sure you all know about it when I When I finish it because it is a lot
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: about how to manage self-assessment and I give different ways
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: to use your own body responses to your work to help you hone in on things.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: What's working and what's not and how to navigate rewrites.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: Right now I feel like it's not laid out in a way that is as useful as possible.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: So I am expecting that probably around the holidays I will have
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_00: a new version
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_00: of this course available.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_00: With a few different add-ons that can make the experience a little better for you.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: My work tends to be very intuitive and I really use a lot of my actor experience
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_00: and actor training to help make the experience part,
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: like that body part,
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: Part of your process so that you can go beyond just your intellectual exercise
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: to experience your work in a different way and approach rewrites from
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_00: a more instinctive perspective.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: I'm hoping that when that comes out that you'll give it a shot.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_00: I have the messier version available at eight Very cheap rate.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: The rate is going to go up when I retool it.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, if you want
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: the beta version, you can go to PlayfulSubstance.com and check it out.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: But a better version is coming and will be available soon.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_00: Alright, that is it for me today on The Imperfect Impulse.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: Let's go see I Play Rocky and let's chat about it later.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_00: Looking forward to it.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: We will talk to you next week on The Imperfect Impulse.