Latest / The Well with Dr. Wendi / The Healer's Burden with Dr. Thema Bryant

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The Healer's Burden with Dr. Thema Bryant · The Well with Dr. Wendi

0:00
SPEAKER_02: Welcome to the Well, a wellness-centered podcast for leaders.
0:04
SPEAKER_02: I'm your host, Dr.
0:05
SPEAKER_02: Wendy Williams.
0:06
SPEAKER_02: I've spent more than two decades working with leaders and studying the relationship between work and wellness and how that shapes and feeds our leadership.
0:14
SPEAKER_02: Wherever you are on your leadership journey and wherever you lead, you will learn something here.
0:20
SPEAKER_02: You are welcome here exactly as you are.
0:24
SPEAKER_02: Welcome to the world.
2:03
SPEAKER_02: If you know her work, you know their credentials.
2:06
SPEAKER_02: She's a trauma psychologist, an author, a teacher whose scholarship on healing and cultural psychology has shaped how a generation of clinicians understands recovery.
2:18
SPEAKER_02: She has spent decades holding space for people in the worst moments of their lives and helping others learn to do the same.
2:25
SPEAKER_02: But that's not why I asked her to join me today.
2:28
SPEAKER_02: I asked her here because Dr.
2:30
SPEAKER_02: Tama has done something most people in her position ever do.
2:35
SPEAKER_02: And that is, or at least do out loud, I should say, and in front of others.
2:38
SPEAKER_02: And that is that she's told the truth about her own healing.
2:41
SPEAKER_02: And not as a case study, but as a person, as a human being.
2:44
SPEAKER_02: She knows from the inside out what it costs to be the resource that everyone reaches for in their time of need and what it takes to recover when your identity is built around being available to everyone else.
2:57
SPEAKER_02: That is the conversation that she and I are going to have.
3:01
SPEAKER_02: And I'm really excited about it.
3:04
SPEAKER_02: Not the polished version of this conversation, but the one where two real people have some real space with each other.
3:11
SPEAKER_02: Now, here's the other thing we do share uh having been or being currently the president of an association that's dedicated to helping other people heal and understand themselves.
3:23
SPEAKER_02: So in terms of in terms of that idea of holding space for others, generally there's also doing that within a larger context.
3:31
SPEAKER_02: And with the field that does that is within the larger context as well.
3:34
SPEAKER_02: And so that feels to be really important to me, particularly as we think about this conversation in the lens of leadership.
3:42
SPEAKER_02: All right.
3:43
SPEAKER_02: So, Dr.
3:44
SPEAKER_02: Tama, I am so grateful that you have made time for me.
3:47
SPEAKER_02: I know you're busy.
3:48
SPEAKER_02: Um, and I want to welcome you to the well.
3:51
SPEAKER_02: Welcome.
3:51
SPEAKER_03: I am so happy to be at the well and just honored to be uh in your presence and excited and inspired about your uh podcast.
4:04
SPEAKER_03: And I wanted to say, and your ministry.
4:06
SPEAKER_03: I'll say all the things that you are cultivating and creating uh for women is beautiful.
4:13
SPEAKER_02: Thank you, thank you.
4:14
SPEAKER_02: I appreciate you uh recognizing the work, right?
4:18
SPEAKER_02: Recognizing the work.
4:20
SPEAKER_02: So we start this podcast off with what I it's it's it's my play on a rapid fire, but it's obviously more calm and relaxed and more centered than that.
4:30
SPEAKER_02: And that is what I like to call the drip.
4:32
SPEAKER_02: So there's a water metaphor here.
4:34
SPEAKER_02: Four quick questions.
4:35
SPEAKER_02: Don't have to think too deeply about it, but you know, nice for folks to be able to get a sense of who you are and connect with you even more.
4:41
SPEAKER_02: So the first one is how do you restore or renew yourself?
4:46
SPEAKER_03: With sisterhood and with dance.
4:49
SPEAKER_03: Uh-huh.
4:50
SPEAKER_03: I knew you were gonna say dance.
4:51
SPEAKER_03: You know, dance is gonna be in there.
4:53
SPEAKER_03: That's my jam.
4:54
SPEAKER_03: That's your jam.
4:56
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so that both both of those really restore me.
4:59
SPEAKER_02: Same.
4:59
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
5:00
SPEAKER_02: What is your favorite act of joy?
5:03
SPEAKER_03: My favorite act of joy since we've already said dance, I'll do something else.
5:08
SPEAKER_03: I will say uh poetry.
5:11
SPEAKER_03: Uh poetry is joyful for me.
5:13
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
5:15
SPEAKER_02: What life practices help you to persist in difficult times?
5:20
SPEAKER_03: I love and appreciate having wise counsel to not be like I have to figure it all out by myself or carry it by myself.
5:32
SPEAKER_03: Uh, I know so many brilliant, soulful sisters and brothers, and I do believe in that iron sharpens iron.
5:40
SPEAKER_03: Uh, so I love and appreciate wise counsel.
5:49
SPEAKER_02: We might circle back.
5:51
SPEAKER_02: Um what are you absolutely loving about life right now?
5:57
SPEAKER_03: I am absolutely loving the rebirth of my love life.
6:03
SPEAKER_03: So in 2018, I went through a divorce, and I am here to say there is life after divorce, there is love after divorce, there's joy after divorce, and I am grateful that that's my testimony.
6:18
SPEAKER_02: Oh, yes, yeah.
6:20
SPEAKER_02: I sell yes, I celebrate it for you.
6:24
SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
6:24
SPEAKER_02: Yes, I love this for you.
6:27
SPEAKER_02: Okay, so now we're gonna get into the questions, yeah.
6:30
SPEAKER_02: Uh, the conversation.
6:31
SPEAKER_02: So you've written about being the person that others people bring their pain to.
6:35
SPEAKER_02: And there's that image in homecoming, and I told you I read your book, I and I and really enjoyed it.
6:40
SPEAKER_02: Um, in homecoming of the child picking up the phone and holding a stranger's crises.
6:46
SPEAKER_02: And, you know, I wondered about and wanted to ask you about as a psychologist, what actually happens to someone who occupies that role for years?
6:55
SPEAKER_02: Uh, the designated receiver, if you will, the person on the receiving end and who's chosen for that.
7:01
SPEAKER_02: When, you know, specifically what happens to them when there's no one or very few people there positioned to actually receive them.
7:09
SPEAKER_02: And again, thinking more broadly within the context of leadership, too.
7:12
SPEAKER_02: Yes, yeah.
7:14
SPEAKER_03: One of the unfortunate things about being a giver, a perpetual giver, is not only do you not get your needs met, but you also can lose sight of the fact that you have needs.
7:30
SPEAKER_03: So self-neglect and self-abandonment, uh, that you can put yourself on hold or put uh what your needs are to the side and continuously prioritize other people.
7:45
SPEAKER_03: Uh, so a negative effect uh is self-abandonment if you're not careful.
7:54
SPEAKER_02: Would you, when we think about, because you and I are both psychologists and both psychologists uh who have led an organization, a pretty large organization, and let me know if it's too personal, but I wonder when you were leading in that role, did you find yourself having to like navigate between the bigness of the role, the level of responsibility that you had for others, as well as you know, the or the whole thing, and attending to yourself, attending to your care?
8:23
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
8:24
SPEAKER_03: Having to be very intentional, and a part of it I feel that was helpful for me is the company you keep.
8:32
SPEAKER_03: Yep.
8:32
SPEAKER_03: And so both my friendships and family support outside of the organizational work um are and were nourishing to me.
8:43
SPEAKER_03: And I will say um I had great joy from people who were on the board with me.
8:49
SPEAKER_03: So even if we're working, we could enjoy each other and uh do things that uh filled our cup even as we were doing the work.
8:59
SPEAKER_03: Um and and I do want to add another layer to that particular role, which some of some other leaders might connect with, okay, is there is an additional urgency because of the time-limited nature of it.
9:15
SPEAKER_03: So you you have a year to get it done.
9:18
SPEAKER_03: And if you don't, whatever you don't get done by December is not gonna get done.
9:23
SPEAKER_03: And so that does add another layer as opposed to if someone is leading something and it's limitless, yeah, you know, then you can pace it a different way.
9:34
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
9:35
SPEAKER_03: Um, so I say that to say uh it was a busy year, but intentionally busier, because I had marks I wanted to hit.
9:48
SPEAKER_02: I'm glad you really you raised that because I do think that this world does have that uniqueness of you know being so large and in one year.
9:54
SPEAKER_02: So it actually caps off some of its potential and also creates a sense of urgency that you may not feel, say, if you have, I don't know, the VP role for a five-year contract or you know, something you know, you're the pastor at, you know, this is just your flock.
10:09
SPEAKER_02: And so you are here for a the time until to be determined.
10:13
SPEAKER_02: It's just a different set of circumstances.
10:16
SPEAKER_02: I also like what you're saying, too, though, about the ways in which the leadership can be crafted in such a way that there's a shared holding with everyone or with others as well, right?
10:28
SPEAKER_02: That it's not just you on your back alone.
10:31
SPEAKER_02: And something I think a lot of folks need to appreciate is that perhaps that never is able to be that.
10:36
SPEAKER_03: Right.
10:37
SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
10:38
SPEAKER_03: It is a wonderful thing uh to be surrounded by knowledgeable people and gifted people and like trusting the team that like I don't have to know everything and I don't have to do everything.
10:53
SPEAKER_03: Uh and that was a beautiful part too.
10:55
SPEAKER_03: When we were like presidential initiatives, and at first the question was kind of like, how are you gonna do all these things?
11:02
SPEAKER_03: Or how is the staff gonna do all these things?
11:04
SPEAKER_03: People are gonna be too much then, and then that reminder, like all of these members we have, we have, you know, over 100,000 psychologists, psychology students who want to be a part of something, who want to do something.
11:19
SPEAKER_03: And so, you know, as you're naming, remembering the team and the breath of not being a lone ranger.
11:26
SPEAKER_02: Correct, correct.
11:28
SPEAKER_02: Hmm.
11:29
SPEAKER_02: Now, when we chatted a little before uh entering this conversation, and I told you that the length, the word healer was going to be associated with this, and you're like, Wendy, what is that?
11:40
SPEAKER_02: Would you stop short?
11:41
SPEAKER_02: And so I wanted to talk about that because I feel like um there's something very important for us to unpack there to make sure that we are all uh referring to and understand, have a shared understanding.
11:51
SPEAKER_02: It's a word that has been used a bit broadly and it has different meaning to different people in different ways and different contexts.
11:57
SPEAKER_02: How would you define the idea of being a healer?
12:00
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
12:02
SPEAKER_03: I would say first, and what is often left off is a person who has done their inner work.
12:10
SPEAKER_03: Because I think we all a lot of people got disqualified text.
12:16
SPEAKER_03: You know, we jump into the other, you know, that external focus.
12:22
SPEAKER_03: Um, but I think honestly, you know, it's a very hard thing to lead where you haven't gone.
12:28
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
12:29
SPEAKER_03: And then we can lead people to some strange places when we are in strange places.
12:34
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
12:35
SPEAKER_02: And sometimes we seek leadership to avoid the leadership of ourselves and to avoid the inner work before you're doing the outer work.
12:42
SPEAKER_02: I find that often.
12:44
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
12:44
SPEAKER_03: It's amazing to me.
12:46
SPEAKER_03: I would say, even people who go through graduate school in psychology or graduate school in social work or ministry.
12:54
SPEAKER_03: And I literally wonder like, did some of us, and I know the answer is yes, sit through those classes and never self-reflect?
13:02
SPEAKER_03: Like it'd be like that, you can't see yourself.
13:06
SPEAKER_03: Like that's amazing.
13:07
SPEAKER_03: You really can't see yourself.
13:09
SPEAKER_03: And so uh, so healers uh take seriously their own healing, yeah.
13:17
SPEAKER_03: That doesn't mean perfection, but it's intentional, it's mindful, it's soulful, it's honest.
13:24
SPEAKER_02: It's honest.
13:25
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
13:25
SPEAKER_02: The ability to be honest with yourself.
13:27
SPEAKER_02: Is that what you would you say?
13:28
SPEAKER_02: That's what it comes down to, telling yourself the truth.
13:31
SPEAKER_03: Right, right.
13:32
SPEAKER_03: And then uh being a healer is another component because it is it is also an intentional work uh to help people, empower people, support people as they are evolving into their best selves.
13:52
SPEAKER_03: And you know, we can do that in many different ways.
13:56
SPEAKER_03: You could be a healer as a caregiver, a healer as a parent.
14:02
SPEAKER_03: Some people are healed by teachers who like freed them up from some false beliefs about their own mind and their own abilities, or can be like a therapist.
14:13
SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
14:13
SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
14:14
SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
14:16
SPEAKER_02: Just thinking about the vulnerability of folks who are coming into relationship with someone who has self-identified or been identified as a healer, um, and and have have what comes with that um and the real harm they can do to somebody.
14:32
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
14:32
SPEAKER_02: Um, when it's unexamined.
14:34
SPEAKER_02: Right.
14:35
SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
14:36
SPEAKER_03: I remember uh I used to uh coordinate the sexual assault response uh office at a university, and when I found out that some of the persons who had held the role before me had done great harm with victim blaming, that you imagine a student comes in who's been sexually assaulted and being asked, why did you let them into your room?
15:05
SPEAKER_03: It's like who in college doesn't have people in and out of your room?
15:10
SPEAKER_03: Like my room does not equal consent.
15:13
SPEAKER_03: And for a mental health professional to not understand that uh is very harmful.
15:19
SPEAKER_03: And so, yes, we can say and do very things.
15:23
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
15:25
SPEAKER_02: Now, for some people, this idea of being a healer is something that has been sort of associated with them their whole lives, whether or not they want that or not.
15:32
SPEAKER_02: Um, and I've seen that happen for folks too.
15:34
SPEAKER_02: Like they have a gift, uh, but we grow into our gifts as well, you know, we become who we're gonna be, whether that be uh, and then there are also those who hold those roles specifically.
15:44
SPEAKER_02: And you strike me as one being a minister, being a psychologist, being someone who is sort of holding those spaces and is teaching the next generation.
15:52
SPEAKER_02: I mean, that's what you're doing even within the university.
15:55
SPEAKER_02: I'm curious how you think about it when uh when when being, you know, or how does being a resource uh stop being something that a person does and starts being something that that they are, like who they are becoming to others.
16:09
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
16:11
SPEAKER_03: I would say when it is not when it's what I do, it can feel performative and feel scripted.
16:22
SPEAKER_03: So it's like when graduate students who are starting to be therapists first are hung up on wanting to know the words, like what do I say?
16:33
SPEAKER_03: And then if I start answering, they want to write it down verbatim, right?
16:37
SPEAKER_02: And it's like that's a perfect example, right?
16:40
SPEAKER_03: It's like scripted.
16:41
SPEAKER_03: I how do I do it?
16:43
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and as opposed to being, yeah, right, and and letting it come through you.
16:50
SPEAKER_03: So I learn the theory, I learn these different interventions, but then like the instrument is me.
16:56
SPEAKER_03: So then I have to like let that come through me, which I know comes with like a trust and a confidence in that, um, which can develop over time, but you know, being a healer is not robotic and it's not manipulative.
17:13
SPEAKER_03: Um yeah.
17:14
SPEAKER_03: I'm sorry to interrupt.
17:15
SPEAKER_03: Oh, go ahead.
17:16
SPEAKER_02: No, it just makes me think about some of the work that we've seen around, you know, social justice and diversity, equity and inclusion and belonging work, the the capture, some have called it elite capture, even on words, on concepts to be able to elevate them for social cachet in certain spaces, that I'm a person who knows about this idea or thing relative to these groups.
17:38
SPEAKER_02: And so doesn't that then signal a virtue of me?
17:40
SPEAKER_02: Um, and so as opposed to the lived embodiment of that.
17:44
SPEAKER_02: And so just sort of seeing that parallel between the healing work and become, you know, becoming someone who is really taking this in as opposed to acting it out, um, and the work around justice, which I would say is justice is healing work too.
17:58
SPEAKER_03: It's a great example because uh my mom would always say, it does matter how you treat people.
18:05
SPEAKER_03: My grandma says that too.
18:06
SPEAKER_02: Or did say that, yeah.
18:08
SPEAKER_02: I've had to say it as a provost to many of a faculty, it matters how you treat people.
18:12
SPEAKER_02: I sometimes thought I was parenting when I was leading.
18:15
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
18:17
SPEAKER_03: Yes, you could know all the theories and all these great names and all, but how do you treat people, right?
18:24
SPEAKER_03: So you're saying you do DEI and you're just mean, right?
18:28
SPEAKER_03: Right?
18:29
SPEAKER_03: Or elitist, or if people don't know like this theorist, then they're not committed to equity.
18:35
SPEAKER_03: Meanwhile, like you don't treat people uh in a welcoming way, no, yeah, uh in an honest way.
18:42
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
18:43
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's such a contradiction, and you know, the harm that it does to folks too, especially um when you appear to look on the outside like someone who is going to treat someone equitably or like you may have shared experiences, this tends to hurt more, I think.
18:59
SPEAKER_03: And I think it's challenging for people when we don't just use the label feminist, right?
19:10
SPEAKER_03: How would I how do I experience you?
19:12
SPEAKER_02: That's correct.
19:13
SPEAKER_02: That's correct.
19:14
SPEAKER_02: Um, okay.
19:17
SPEAKER_02: So on on the well, one of the things that I'm really trying to lift up in this ministry, thank you for naming that, yes, um, is to really hold hold this line.
19:26
SPEAKER_02: And I, you know, it's a distinction I think is really important, something that I feel very drawn and compelled to teach between rest and recovery.
19:35
SPEAKER_02: So rest being the absence of work, but recovery being something different.
19:39
SPEAKER_02: Recovery being like active work to replenish and what has gotten depleted, which I feel is very different.
19:45
SPEAKER_02: I'm witnessing so many folks in in in my practice, in my work, uh, who have a tired that a nap cannot fix.
19:55
SPEAKER_02: Right.
19:55
SPEAKER_02: You know, it's you know, folks call it bone tired, you know, the exhaustion, the depth level of that, and that that is directly linked to um this overwork, this this real depletion.
20:09
SPEAKER_02: You've described some of the quieter signs, and I think that a lot of clients that I work with would and and do, because I do recommend your book, uh, do connect with some of these ideals too, like how they how you can disconnect from yourself.
20:23
SPEAKER_02: So the people pleasing, right?
20:25
SPEAKER_02: The um uh survival mode that keeps you busy, busy, busy, busy, busy, so busy that you don't have to, I don't have time to heal.
20:31
SPEAKER_02: I don't have time to sit and meditate.
20:32
SPEAKER_02: I'm too busy to meditate.
20:33
SPEAKER_02: Meditation takes five minutes and you're just too happy for that.
20:36
SPEAKER_02: Right.
20:37
SPEAKER_02: You have no time to sit still.
20:38
SPEAKER_02: Uh, for someone who's in that pattern, recovery can feel less like relief and more like a threat, you know.
20:45
SPEAKER_02: And I wonder from your work what you would say recovery ask of a person like that.
20:49
SPEAKER_02: What is recovery requiring of someone who's sort of on that treadmill, on that, on that rampage around just doing, doing, doing?
20:57
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
20:58
SPEAKER_03: Uh, recovery requires first an honesty that I'm not fine.
21:05
SPEAKER_03: There's that word again, right?
21:07
SPEAKER_03: Fine.
21:11
SPEAKER_03: And it's like, no, like uh something's missing, right?
21:16
SPEAKER_03: Or as you say, like I'm soul tired, I'm bone tired.
21:21
SPEAKER_03: And and and recovery also requires a willingness for sustained change.
21:29
SPEAKER_03: And often when we're perpetually going like that is habit, is the norm.
21:37
SPEAKER_03: We've been taught that we need to do that to survive, or we need to do that to excel.
21:42
SPEAKER_03: And so there's also an anxiety there.
21:46
SPEAKER_03: If I pause or slow down or set boundaries or do or go to therapy, if I do those things, then I'm gonna somehow be missing something.
21:56
SPEAKER_03: And uh the thing that's we're missing is ourselves.
22:06
SPEAKER_02: That's quite profound.
22:08
SPEAKER_02: Um because you have to value yourself to miss her.
22:17
SPEAKER_02: You know, or him or them.
22:19
SPEAKER_02: You have to value yourself to miss them.
22:22
SPEAKER_02: Underneath all of this, do you think that there's just a lowered self-esteem, or is that just too simple?
22:28
SPEAKER_03: No, I think it is a real sense of unworthiness.
22:33
SPEAKER_03: Right?
22:33
SPEAKER_03: We give time and attention to things we think are worth it.
22:37
SPEAKER_03: So we think other people are worth it and we give it to that.
22:41
SPEAKER_03: We think like a job is worth it, or like the payments that come from the job is worth it, so we give it to that.
22:47
SPEAKER_03: Uh but we, you know, uh have often been treated and made to believe that we are not deserving.
23:00
SPEAKER_03: We chase worthiness instead of uh being worthy already.
23:07
SPEAKER_02: And I think that I, you know, would like to lift up the other side of that too, because I think that people who practice worthiness also irritate folks who do not feel themselves to be worthy.
23:18
SPEAKER_02: Does that make sense?
23:20
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think I'm out.
23:25
SPEAKER_03: Like how dare you?
23:27
SPEAKER_03: How dare you?
23:28
SPEAKER_02: Or that I've been uh I have been forsaking myself.
23:32
SPEAKER_02: I have been sabotaging and abandoning myself.
23:35
SPEAKER_02: Right.
23:36
SPEAKER_02: Um, and that's just what we do.
23:38
SPEAKER_02: So when you stop and you say, actually, no, this is my bedtime, I'm going to bed now.
23:42
SPEAKER_02: Whatever it is is your boundary point where you, you know, um, wherever that person is, where they're carving that space for themselves, where they deem themselves worthy, it I think creates a contrast that can be frustrating to the individual who has allowed things to cross that boundary so much.
23:58
SPEAKER_02: Right.
23:59
SPEAKER_02: That now this becomes perhaps a difficulty, perhaps even in that relationship.
24:04
SPEAKER_02: But even if not just I find you annoying or you're not working like I'm working, or you're lazy, or whatever the case may be.
24:11
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
24:11
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
24:12
SPEAKER_03: It's so hilarious to me.
24:13
SPEAKER_03: I actually had a company reach out to me, I don't know if the CEO or who have human resources, whatever.
24:20
SPEAKER_03: And they wanted me to come and do a workshop for their employees, and they especially wanted me to address this generation that has all these boundaries.
24:31
SPEAKER_02: You're like, I taught them to have those boundaries.
24:34
SPEAKER_02: What do you mean?
24:34
SPEAKER_02: We're not gonna tell them not to have the boundaries.
24:36
SPEAKER_02: I'm like, I I don't think you want me to come.
24:39
SPEAKER_02: I'm the wrong one.
24:40
SPEAKER_02: I'm the wrong one.
24:40
SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna tell them to take longer breaks.
24:42
SPEAKER_02: Right.
24:43
SPEAKER_02: Let's see.
24:44
SPEAKER_03: Oh my goodness.
24:45
SPEAKER_03: They were thoroughly annoyed with them and prepared to pay an expert to tell them to get to work.
24:53
SPEAKER_02: Huh.
24:54
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, the young people are not here for that.
24:56
SPEAKER_02: Right.
24:56
SPEAKER_02: And part of it actually is our fault because we are that generation of psychologists uh and folks who came through and either raised them or told them or their aunties or whatnot, but also taught them or taught the therapists who are working with them to set boundaries.
25:10
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
25:11
SPEAKER_02: Um, and that they're they're that the paycheck is not worth their peace of mind, their health, and their wellness.
25:16
SPEAKER_02: So you are the wrong one.
25:17
SPEAKER_02: Right.
25:18
SPEAKER_02: Actually.
25:23
SPEAKER_02: Um, okay.
25:25
SPEAKER_02: Hey there.
25:26
SPEAKER_02: I hope that you all are enjoying this episode.
25:28
SPEAKER_02: And I also wanted to just take a quick moment to remind you that there are multiple ways for you to engage some of the work that we have happening at the well.
25:36
SPEAKER_02: Yes, we have this wonderful podcast and this community that we're growing a newsletter as well.
25:42
SPEAKER_02: But some people are looking for something a little bit more, some direct work and service with me.
25:47
SPEAKER_02: Uh, that can happen in one-to-one coaching, coaching with your institution or your organization.
25:52
SPEAKER_02: Uh, and so if there are ways in which you'd like to dive a little bit deeper, please feel free to find the link below in our show notes.
25:59
SPEAKER_02: You can click on to book a discovery call and we can talk through a path that's right for you and your organization.
26:05
SPEAKER_02: As always, you are welcome at the well, and we always want you to be well so that you can lead well.
26:10
SPEAKER_02: You don't have to figure out the next step alone.
26:13
SPEAKER_02: We're right here with you, and we will be here together.
26:17
SPEAKER_02: You know, if we think about this too in terms of being a psychologist, is you were trying to recognize and treat exactly the kinds of things that people do carry.
26:25
SPEAKER_02: Um, and you've been candid, I think, pretty more much so that the training doesn't make anyone immune from experiencing the pain or harm that we're trained to support.
26:32
SPEAKER_02: And so, really thinking about the harm that many mental health practitioners or folks who do this work do work with humans, you know.
26:40
SPEAKER_02: Uh, so we open that more broadly, those who are in those helping spaces, physicians, social workers, caseworkers, etc.
26:48
SPEAKER_02: With that awareness that, you know, we're not immune just because we studied it in an academic program.
26:54
SPEAKER_02: Because it now that makes perfect sense.
26:56
SPEAKER_02: What would you say uh lived restoration, uh restoring through life process, going through the experience of being restored has the potential to teach those in clinical training programs?
27:09
SPEAKER_03: How to live, not just how to accomplish.
27:18
SPEAKER_03: We train and prepare people to go for the next thing, whether that is go for tenure or become a supervisor or become a fellow or get into this journal.
27:30
SPEAKER_03: Uh and what people discover often is you can get those things and A, either still feel empty, that it doesn't bring what you thought it would bring, or um to enjoy it, but realize the other aspects of your life have been neglected and undeveloped.
27:54
SPEAKER_03: And so um I I know in some master's programs they will have like a capstone course, which is more about like wellness and living well and that kind of thing.
28:07
SPEAKER_03: I think a lot of our doctoral programs don't, you know, the capstone is go out and achieve dissertation.
28:13
SPEAKER_02: Yes, that's it.
28:15
SPEAKER_02: Did you get a job?
28:16
SPEAKER_03: Right.
28:18
SPEAKER_03: Yes, that's it.
28:19
SPEAKER_03: Check, check, check.
28:21
SPEAKER_02: Yes, yes, yes.
28:23
SPEAKER_02: So having having the capstone, at least, if that is, does exist, having that focus on wellness is one way of remembering that yeah, right.
28:31
SPEAKER_03: And I think uh collectively, the environments we create, you know, because we use the language of self-care and community care, but have not often seen that organizationally.
28:46
SPEAKER_03: And so we often recreate organizations and departments that are like the ones we survived, and we assume that's the only way to do it.
28:56
SPEAKER_02: And that sounds like family systems, doesn't it?
28:58
SPEAKER_02: Right, yeah, yeah, yeah.
29:00
SPEAKER_02: Because you only can create the things that you know unless you take the time to be generative and creative and find something else, right?
29:07
SPEAKER_02: Uh, yeah, yeah.
29:08
SPEAKER_02: And I'm it's my thesis that only through rest and renewal will you even have the space to be creative like that to find something new.
29:16
SPEAKER_02: Yes, yes.
29:17
SPEAKER_02: Um, is there something for that for you on this side of your own healing journey that no amount of expertise would have given you?
29:23
SPEAKER_02: Or do you feel that those things needed to be in tandem in order for you to be who you are and what the message that you're sharing with the world today?
29:31
SPEAKER_03: I would say uh there is the deepening of lessons.
29:38
SPEAKER_03: So instead of like new lessons, that it become you get clarity in in deeper ways, right?
29:45
SPEAKER_03: Like life progresses and as the the shifts happen, uh and a part of it um for me when I talk about homecoming is not living such a divided life or such a censored life, uh, but to incorporate all of the different aspects of me uh when I am fully present, uh that's when I am at my best.
30:15
SPEAKER_03: And so not leaving any parts of myself in the margins.
30:20
SPEAKER_03: So whether that is uh as an artistic person, as a spiritual person, uh as a survivor, uh that uh learning to welcome uh all the aspects of me and what I find is that that frees up other people and gives other people permission to be the fullness of themselves instead of this uh caricature of professionalism or of healer or of whatever uh that is, like a strong one.
31:00
SPEAKER_03: And so to like release the assumptions and the shoulds and and to be and to be free.
31:08
SPEAKER_02: That's liberation.
31:09
SPEAKER_02: To be free, that's liberation.
31:11
SPEAKER_02: You know, we have to spend just a little bit more time here because that is so key in terms of thinking about who feels that they are authorized to actually be themselves, particularly in a leadership role.
31:22
SPEAKER_02: Oftentimes I find that that's when the real mass start to come out, uh, that your authentic self is someone that you kind of feel like it's not allowed to be out here with the rest of the world because you have a new title and you have a new desk plate if people are sit at desk anymore and you know, but you know, truly like a putting on the dawn of this uh of the of this new idea.
31:45
SPEAKER_02: What would you say to those, especially, you know, and I'm thinking I'm gonna speak specifically to folks of color, folks to women, folks uh who do not see themselves as being sort of represented in a more patriarchal or white male dominant ideal of leadership, because that has been and continues to be.
32:01
SPEAKER_02: And we would argue there is a reification of that becoming again a norm that is being pushed.
32:07
SPEAKER_02: Why is it uh why is it important to be authentically you in order to lead?
32:13
SPEAKER_03: Uh clones and masks cannot get us free.
32:22
SPEAKER_03: That's right.
32:23
SPEAKER_03: It cannot.
32:25
SPEAKER_03: And then it becomes what was the point?
32:28
SPEAKER_03: What was the point of you being there if you're going to play a role which is to imitate everyone who did it before you?
32:38
SPEAKER_03: Then, you know, just your face doesn't shift things if what comes out of your mouth and what you do is the exact same.
32:48
SPEAKER_03: So we actually need your experience, your heart, your knowledge, your wisdom, your truth to broaden the conversation for there to actually be uh a growth and a stretching, not just a change of faces.
33:05
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
33:09
SPEAKER_02: I imagine for some folks, and I hope that's not the case.
33:11
SPEAKER_02: So I kind of want to say it now.
33:14
SPEAKER_02: It's not that you're saying then that you can't be a good leader, but that you're just asking for folks to show up with their true voice in that space to lead well.
33:23
SPEAKER_03: Yes, and and that I'm gonna say is actually cross-cultural.
33:27
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
33:28
SPEAKER_03: Like if you are just imitating other people, you are denying the world, your department, your program, uh the benefit of you.
33:41
SPEAKER_02: That's right.
33:41
SPEAKER_03: And uh and it's also uh rooted in a real insecurity that who you are is insufficient.
33:49
SPEAKER_03: So I have to pretend to be like someone else.
33:54
SPEAKER_03: And uh you actually the even now, it's maybe especially now, people are hungry for authenticity.
34:03
SPEAKER_02: This is real, right?
34:05
SPEAKER_03: They this is like a dehydrated world we're living in with regard to authenticity.
34:11
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
34:12
SPEAKER_03: So we need uh and and even if you show up and and have some uh different ideas or different ways of doing it, yes, there will be some people who are like, no, it must always be the same.
34:28
SPEAKER_03: Uh, but there are those who will celebrate change.
34:33
SPEAKER_03: And I do want to say an important lesson also is if you are a change maker, if you are a trailblazer, to learn how to do that with a grace where you still honor, appreciate, recognize the people that came before you.
34:50
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
34:51
SPEAKER_03: Because when people feel discarded or dismissed or or disrespected.
34:57
SPEAKER_03: It's not good.
34:58
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's and that's that's not, you know, we're building on what is, not just trashing what is.
35:07
SPEAKER_02: That is such, you know, when you speak to that, I think a lot about uh uh work with folks in terms of, you know, talking through, so we've been doing this work together.
35:18
SPEAKER_02: How are you going to translate what we've been discussing and working on to those with whom you work too?
35:23
SPEAKER_02: Because you are not, whoever you are, and particularly in leadership, are not going to be able to carry it out on your own.
35:29
SPEAKER_02: And in fact, those who remain and who are still there are probably uh the ones best able to get you from here to there because they know the here.
35:37
SPEAKER_02: You can get them to the here, you know.
35:41
SPEAKER_03: Yes, so true.
35:44
SPEAKER_03: For us to be uh appreciative of like intergenerational work.
35:51
SPEAKER_03: Yes, yes, there's richness there, there's deep richness there.
35:55
SPEAKER_02: Oh, you're making okay.
35:57
SPEAKER_02: We I can feel myself it's possible to go into multiple directions and get very unfocused.
36:02
SPEAKER_02: But one of the things that you mentioned earlier and then that I wanted to lift up to is this notion of the strong one.
36:08
SPEAKER_02: Um, you just said that, and you know, I'm I know that there are a lot of people sort of white knuckling it through trying to be the strong one right now, and it's it's not working because I don't see how it can work for anybody, particularly in this moment.
36:21
SPEAKER_02: Um, your work speaks to that specifically, I think.
36:24
SPEAKER_02: And I'm wondering if in this space, if you could share what you would want that person who sees themselves as the strong one to really understand about what it is costing them to inhabit that role.
36:37
SPEAKER_03: It's important to know the ways in which we co-create that.
36:44
SPEAKER_03: Sometimes we think it's a coincidence of I always have to be the strong one in my family, on my job, at my church, in the community, in the organization.
36:57
SPEAKER_03: And there is a way in which uh we can co-create that by the ways in which we show up, yeah, by our behavior, uh, by our silencing.
37:10
SPEAKER_03: And so uh it can be control issues, yeah, it can be uh trust issues, and to interrogate within ourselves what is it that makes me uncomfortable with other strong people?
37:28
SPEAKER_03: Hey, right?
37:30
SPEAKER_03: Why do I have to be the only one?
37:33
SPEAKER_03: That's like, hey, hey, you just said a thing.
37:42
SPEAKER_02: It's a truth, it's a thing, right?
37:45
SPEAKER_02: Because they're oh my goodness.
37:47
SPEAKER_02: I you know, I was thinking about because you're you know a trauma psychologist, and so I was thinking, I wonder, I wanna should ask her about the trauma thing, but I also hear too this sort of competitive thing going on, too.
37:57
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you know, what is making it difficult for me to be with other people who can hold their own?
38:02
SPEAKER_02: Like iron does sharpen iron, and I do, you know, I was an athlete, so I I like like let's be great together.
38:08
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, let's and push each other, yeah.
38:11
SPEAKER_02: Listen, or on the relay, I actually need you to be fast too.
38:14
SPEAKER_02: Like, let's both keep doing that.
38:16
SPEAKER_02: And so, what's going on for you if you need people to be slower?
38:20
SPEAKER_02: What's going on there?
38:21
SPEAKER_03: Right.
38:22
SPEAKER_03: It's like you're surrounded by mentees and proteges, but like no one who can check you.
38:28
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you don't want nobody to check you, boo.
38:30
SPEAKER_02: I hear you, right?
38:32
SPEAKER_02: No, that's so true.
38:34
SPEAKER_02: That is so true.
38:35
SPEAKER_02: And I wonder if, because you said it's something that uh is co-constructed, right?
38:40
SPEAKER_02: That you're you know, saying then that you are responsible for some of these conditions that are around you.
38:45
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
38:47
SPEAKER_02: So what's going on there?
38:48
SPEAKER_03: You're strong because right.
38:50
SPEAKER_03: Sometimes, sometimes we teach people not to show up for us.
38:55
SPEAKER_02: That's a word.
38:56
SPEAKER_03: We're there for everybody else.
38:58
SPEAKER_03: And when we're going through, we disappear.
39:01
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, right.
39:01
SPEAKER_03: We don't want anybody to see us struggling.
39:04
SPEAKER_02: Fall apart, being our self- you know, cozy insides.
39:07
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
39:08
SPEAKER_03: Right.
39:08
SPEAKER_03: And then we say, no one's ever there for me.
39:11
SPEAKER_03: That's right.
39:12
SPEAKER_03: Like they didn't even know you were going through.
39:14
SPEAKER_03: That's right.
39:14
SPEAKER_03: Well, you won't have such a pattern where they're in shell shock when they see struggle because you've never revealed that you were a human being.
39:23
SPEAKER_02: And there are certain folks who have, because of the experience of social and culturally, sort of set up to sort of hold this stance too, even have pride around it.
39:34
SPEAKER_02: Right.
39:34
SPEAKER_02: Um, uh, I think we're learning the the counter to that.
39:38
SPEAKER_02: But for a long time, being a strong black woman was something that people stood, you know, ten toes down in, yes, you know, buckling at the knees, but still proud of it.
39:48
SPEAKER_03: Even, you know, for girls, right?
39:52
SPEAKER_03: We teach our daughters uh in that same pattern, uh, to be super strong, to be independent, we say hyper-independent, to need nothing from anyone, uh, to be a warrior and never learning breath or rest or unfold uh or or honesty about the things that hurt us.
40:15
SPEAKER_02: That's right.
40:16
SPEAKER_02: That's right, that's right.
40:18
SPEAKER_02: Is there anything that you want to say outside of what I've asked you about that you just feel like this conversation needs this cherry on the top?
40:27
SPEAKER_03: Right.
40:28
SPEAKER_03: I will say, since as a cherry on the top, I will say leaders and especially women leaders are often not cautioned about our love lives.
40:43
SPEAKER_03: That we are taught how to lead, but not how to partner.
40:49
SPEAKER_03: And who we choose to partner with can launch or sabotage your wings.
41:08
SPEAKER_03: Like if anyone is intimidated by you or bothered by uh your goals, your gifts, any of those information.
41:17
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, take it.
41:18
SPEAKER_03: They told you the truth.
41:20
SPEAKER_03: Don't try to talk about it.
41:22
SPEAKER_02: That's information.
41:23
SPEAKER_03: They told you, they told you, and so uh to be uh a leader, you want to not only guard the vision or tend the vision well, but your heart well.
41:38
SPEAKER_02: Yes, yes.
41:40
SPEAKER_02: It's so funny that you, you know, I have um I have a lot of mentees, um, I, you know, and really um the ones that there are contingent of of mentees, and and it's all individual relationships, but they have entrusted me with conversations around their love lives.
42:02
SPEAKER_02: It's very sacred, and I know how vulnerable that is for them.
42:05
SPEAKER_02: And so it has been really interesting to witness them witness me celebrating their love.
42:14
SPEAKER_02: Dr.
42:15
SPEAKER_02: Whitney, I didn't know.
42:15
SPEAKER_02: I was like, oh no, no, no, no, no.
42:17
SPEAKER_02: No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
42:19
SPEAKER_02: You guys get to get some love in this world.
42:22
SPEAKER_02: There is like, you know, it may not be something that you see in my personal life everywhere, because I, you know, keep my things sacred for me.
42:30
SPEAKER_02: That's where they get to be.
42:32
SPEAKER_02: But you must absolutely fill this cup.
42:35
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and there must absolutely be somebody who is loving on you, but legitimately loving on you, legitimate, legitimately loving, filling your cup, legitimately loving on you, you know.
42:43
SPEAKER_02: And so it's such it was it's such a breath of fresh air to be able to do that.
42:48
SPEAKER_02: I'm also the one to say, you know, I don't think that that's gonna work out.
42:51
SPEAKER_02: Because that's what you have that auntie energy, but you know, that I think that I love that you name that.
42:58
SPEAKER_02: I feel for for my own journey in terms of being, you know, in in several roles, but ultimately being entrusted, because I do believe that leadership is about being entrusted by others, uh, with that part that I know is very sensitive, very soft, very intimate, that they're trusting me with uh to name that uh you must absolutely make sure that all your needs are met, and love is a need, love is a requirement.
43:24
SPEAKER_02: You it is okay.
43:26
SPEAKER_02: I want to talk a little bit about some of the research, and I want you to teach it with me.
43:30
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
43:30
SPEAKER_02: So I'm just gonna share some things and we could just chat about what you think about it or not.
43:35
SPEAKER_02: But what feels important to me with this particular project, this ministry, I love that you gave it that.
43:40
SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
43:41
SPEAKER_02: I really do.
43:41
SPEAKER_02: I'm like, thank you.
43:42
SPEAKER_02: That's right, it is is to like also ground it in the science that we have.
43:46
SPEAKER_02: So we have a leadership science, we have a psychological science, and then there are these ways in which the psychology and leadership science meld and really give us some sense of things.
43:56
SPEAKER_02: And then there's just what happens in the world that we are observing in our science today.
44:00
SPEAKER_02: Tells us that.
44:00
SPEAKER_02: So the first piece is really thinking about this notion of loneliness.
44:03
SPEAKER_02: People talk often about leadership, you know, loneliness at the top.
44:07
SPEAKER_02: You've even mentioned it, like you, that you were on the you were the president, but you had a board where you all would have some fun together.
44:15
SPEAKER_02: Um what do you make of this idea that leadership is at the top?
44:19
SPEAKER_02: One of the things that we know is that most um senior leaders are often speaking to the need, the idea that the role is lonely.
44:28
SPEAKER_02: But we also know the most effective teams are in fact working as teams, are in fact, you know, laughing together, having fun together, but also sharing in the benefit and leveraging each other's knowledge, experience, and breadth together.
44:41
SPEAKER_02: Um has that been relevant?
44:42
SPEAKER_02: Has that shown itself to you in your work?
44:44
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
44:45
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
44:46
SPEAKER_03: I think, you know, we and the science shows that like the lone, isolated leader uh is not the most effective and also not the the most well, right?
45:01
SPEAKER_03: Emotionally.
45:02
SPEAKER_03: And so uh to really, and that may be the model people saw, you know, when they were developing, um, where it's like the strong silent type who consults with no one and just decrees from on high.
45:17
SPEAKER_03: Um, but to really look at uh collaboration, to look at uh care, to look at a kind of leader who is not only about extracting labor, but about honoring and building relationships.
45:36
SPEAKER_03: And so leadership can be lonely if you lead that way.
45:42
SPEAKER_03: Uh and I want to say it's not just about being friends with the people who are working within your organization.
45:55
SPEAKER_03: It's important for leaders to have relationship with other leaders, in their group, but outside of their group.
46:02
SPEAKER_03: Yes, yes, for like a reality check.
46:05
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
46:07
SPEAKER_02: Well, you know, one of the things that I find so interesting in that perspective is too the idea of also appreciating that you do hold that leadership role.
46:16
SPEAKER_02: So one of the things that I think can happen for our colleagues who are in leadership is that they're so into getting on and being, you know, having the great teams, and that's wonderful, but there still is a power differential.
46:27
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
46:28
SPEAKER_02: You know, and so the requirement, you have to be aware of that.
46:31
SPEAKER_02: And so, how do you cultivate relationships with your team, particularly if you're the one at the top?
46:37
SPEAKER_02: Like if you're really in the top seat, where folks are, you know, having this space with each other and they do feel that connective tissue with you, right?
46:44
SPEAKER_02: And at the same time, that you're not drawing too much from them because it is uneven what you're by virtue of you being the one to ask it, it's uneven.
46:52
SPEAKER_02: So I really love what you're saying around also where your peer group and are you able to talk with, you know, play in a sandbox with your peers as well, because that can give you a little bit of a reality check instead of you know, folks who may feel compelled to always celebrate you.
47:05
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
47:06
SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
47:07
SPEAKER_03: Such an important point of like, you know, when you have power, understanding that no matter how, you know, trying to pretend it doesn't exist doesn't erase the consequences or the implications of when you ask something.
47:24
SPEAKER_02: Yes, yes, okay.
47:26
SPEAKER_02: Um, one more factoid I think that I'd like to lift up just because um it feels important, you know.
47:33
SPEAKER_02: I wonder how leaders sit in the space.
47:35
SPEAKER_02: One, not everyone who is a leader is calling themselves that.
47:37
SPEAKER_02: I think we need to name that.
47:39
SPEAKER_02: But two, dude, what does it mean to sit in this space of, you know, to actually in uh apply this level of care and replenishment?
47:47
SPEAKER_02: I I wonder, and we see in some of the, you know, work uh that folks think that taking time for rest and restoration is actually seen as a weakness.
47:56
SPEAKER_02: And we know that in fact it's actually the opposite.
47:59
SPEAKER_02: When you think about um uh your work and your role in leadership, what has been supportive of you andor supportive of you supporting others who have been in the leadership seat around making sure that they're getting that replenishment?
48:11
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
48:12
SPEAKER_03: I think it's important for people to see and to know what you are doing that feeds you.
48:23
SPEAKER_03: Because if not, if you just show up kind of on, we'll we'll think like that, that just happens, right?
48:33
SPEAKER_03: It's not random, like you know, when you and I show up with an energy, with a vision, with a PowerPoint, with a whatever, like we have also spent time in the well.
48:43
SPEAKER_02: I have spent time in the well.
48:45
SPEAKER_02: You have to pull me out of the well.
48:52
SPEAKER_02: That's right, that's right, that's right, right.
48:54
SPEAKER_02: But seeing that background work, what's underneath, what yeah, yeah, yeah.
48:59
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
48:59
SPEAKER_03: And and you know, to express gratitude on that, because like, you know, when you're the face of something, you know, people see you, but highlighting the fact that it was a team and the different people that like have made this happen.
49:15
SPEAKER_03: It's possible.
49:16
SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
49:17
SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
49:17
SPEAKER_02: I want to uplift too, you know, we think about governance and you know, employee-employer relationships as well, that you know, oftentimes this becomes something that perhaps needs to be mandated.
49:29
SPEAKER_02: Um, too.
49:30
SPEAKER_02: You know, I've sat on a board where we had to uh require that our CEO uh actually take a sabbatical because she was a founder and she just was overwrought and it just was the case, you know.
49:40
SPEAKER_02: Um the supervisors be on the lookout for that.
49:43
SPEAKER_02: I think what you talk about with regard to extraction, that if you are in the position of requiring or relying on allowing your labor to be extracted, you're not necessarily going to appreciate that you're setting up those same dynamics for your team.
49:55
SPEAKER_02: And so really making sure that we're structuring in this renewal or replenishment space because otherwise folks are just probably not going to ask for it.
50:03
SPEAKER_02: Right.
50:04
SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
50:06
SPEAKER_02: Um we it's time to end, but when we do this, um I want to sort of end with one renewal practice that you believe um that you like or that you think will help others uh to share, just wanting to really increase the library of things that folks feel are possible for them to do.
50:24
SPEAKER_03: Yes, absolutely.
50:25
SPEAKER_02: Is there one that works for you?
50:27
SPEAKER_03: Yes, I will do uh compassion holds.
50:30
SPEAKER_03: And so I do believe embody sovereignty.
50:33
SPEAKER_03: So this is invitational, and you can do it if it aligns with you.
50:38
SPEAKER_03: The first one is one hand on your heart, one hand on your belly, inhaling in through your nose, and exhaling out through your mouth, one hand on your heart, and one hand on your forehead, inhaling in through your nose, exhaling out through your mouth, embrace yourself, might be the first hug of the day, make it a good one.
51:09
SPEAKER_03: Inhaling in through your nose, exhaling out through your mouth, and shake it out, Dr.
51:22
SPEAKER_02: Tama.
51:23
SPEAKER_02: I want to thank you so much for your time with me today.
51:26
SPEAKER_02: Final word from you.
51:29
SPEAKER_03: We are worthy of joy, of rest, of liberation.
51:35
SPEAKER_03: It is not for us to wait for other people to give it to us, but for us to go after it and receive it ourselves.
51:49
SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much for listening.
51:51
SPEAKER_02: I hope this message found you in a good place and left you even better, and with something that you can use in your work this week.
51:59
SPEAKER_02: If you'd like to learn more about the well and the work that we do, please visit drwendywilliams.com.
52:06
SPEAKER_02: W-e-n-d-i, not why, drwendywilliams.com, and also follow me on Instagram, on LinkedIn, at Dr Wendy Williams.
52:15
SPEAKER_02: I'd love to hear from you.
52:16
SPEAKER_02: And please also do like and subscribe to this podcast and share a review.
52:21
SPEAKER_02: If you're finding something of value, please write us a review and also pass on the good work with others.
52:27
SPEAKER_02: Uh, we know that there are many people who are trying to lead well in this time, and we want to make sure to broaden and grow our community, and you are the number one way to help us to do that.
52:36
SPEAKER_02: Welcome to the well, and we'll see you next time.