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Straumann® ProTalk with Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny (video version) · Straumann® ProTalk

0:00
George Raeber: you're actually known probably to everyone in dentistry that
0:03
is interested in anything digital.
0:05
Can you explain a bit what resources you make available and what does it stand for?
0:10
Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: Of course.
0:10
So ID D'S Institute of Digital Dentistry, and if you don't know, it
0:14
is primarily a free resource, IDD.
0:16
You can go on and you can go into our blog and I think the
0:19
main thing that we do is reviews.
0:21
This is what made us famous, is reviews of digital dentistry products.
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And of course, look, I, IDD has grown from me just writing blogs to now a team of
0:28
10, just on IDD alone, full time Uhhuh.
0:31
Oh, wow.
0:31
Okay.
0:31
Yeah.
0:32
10 people now.
0:40
George Raeber: So welcome to Stroman Pro Talk, the pulse of dentistry.
0:44
We're recording this live from the ideas.
0:46
I'm George Raeber and together with my cohost Florian, we're really pleased
0:50
to actually welcome you Ahad here.
0:53
You must have had a very busy day at IDS, and so we're super pleased to welcome
0:58
you at here at the booth and actually doing this podcast together with us.
1:02
Thank you for having me.
1:03
So you're actually known probably to everyone in dentistry that is
1:08
interested in anything digital.
1:10
You're one of the go-to resources when it comes to talking about interval
1:14
scanners, printers, or software.
1:18
And so it's really exciting to have you with us to dive a
1:21
little bit into those topics.
1:22
And I'm sure our listeners there just wanting to hear what you saw
1:26
at the ideas and what stood out.
1:27
Yeah, we'll come to this in a minute, but first we would like to start with you.
1:32
So maybe Ahad, can you just introduce yourself in one minute?
1:36
Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: Yeah, for sure.
1:37
I'm sure people are sick of hearing it 'cause it's the same
1:40
introduction as the videos.
1:42
But I'm Amad Al Hasni.
1:44
I'm a dentist.
1:45
I'm a full-time private dentist, still full-time.
1:47
I love dentistry.
1:48
I love practicing full time, sir. Still full time.
1:50
I That's, I don't know how you do it.
1:52
Yeah, I dunno.
1:53
Either some days, but it's it's been a fun journey.
1:55
So I work full time in New Zealand and my father's a dentist.
1:59
My brother's a dentist.
2:01
My mother's a dentist.
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And together we have a family business.
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We run and operate about 41 dental chairs.
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Across six locations and we have a digital lab with eight technicians
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or six technicians, I can't remember.
2:14
Yeah, after a hundred staff, after a hundred staff.
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It's just I don't count them anymore, but it's we have a big team
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and I've been involved in digital dentistry for close to a decade now.
2:26
As soon as I graduated, I worked with my father in private practice and he
2:30
had scanners and the rest is history.
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It's been a, it's been an interesting journey.
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George Raeber: Basically from the get go, you were involved in digital
2:38
dentistry or was there any defining moment where you said, okay, now we
2:41
need to switch gears and go from more conventional to fully digital dentistry?
2:46
Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: I think I was very fortunate.
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As soon as I graduated, I went into my father's practice and my father's
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a very big role model for me big time.
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He is a, he is like my hero still to this day.
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And, he had scanners.
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I was lucky.
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I went into a practice that had scanners and he had a plan mecca.
3:02
Actually it was E four D at the time, if you remember those days.
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And they he had that for a few years and we used that.
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And then like many people, you have problems with that product,
3:13
so you look for the next product.
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So we had, eventually, we had three different scanners in the practice.
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And that was like the start of starting point IDD because I started comparing Yes.
3:22
Between them.
3:23
George Raeber: Oh, that's already the starting point of
3:25
your digital dentistry career.
3:27
Now.
3:28
Maybe looking back a bit at your successes, it's quite impressive
3:33
that you have such a big clinic and it's still a family run business.
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You do a, you just mentioned that you are a hundred percent
3:40
as a dentist still working.
3:42
You do a lot of other stuff.
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What's your secret to success?
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How do you keep up with all of those new developments and
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balancing, basically practicing.
3:52
While being at the forefront of the, or the bleeding edge of technology?
3:55
Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: I guess look, honestly, it's hard to balance.
3:57
I don't think we, and no, no one has mastered the balance yet.
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Not perfectly.
4:02
Yeah.
4:02
Look, I really, truly believe, this is a question I get asked a lot because people,
4:06
I. Can't believe why I work so hard.
4:10
I really do believe when you're very passionate about something
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the cliche doesn't feel like work.
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It feels like work.
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You're tired.
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But you have a reason to wake up.
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You are excited every time you wake up.
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And there's, and it's very interesting now dentistry 'cause it's changing so fast.
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And I guess to answer your question, how I do it, I, a good team.
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A very good team.
4:29
How many travel
4:29
Florian Kirsch: days do you have per year?
4:31
Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: You typically, 'cause you're basically
4:32
Florian Kirsch: attending all of the global conferences.
4:34
Yeah, I
4:34
Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: would travel probably two to three months per year.
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So not too bad.
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Not too bad.
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Basically that's my holidays and so it's not the worst places in
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the world, not the bad places.
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Germany, Europe, look, it could be worse.
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Always treated very well.
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I can't complain.
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It's like a very good gig.
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Nice dinners and nice people and, but look, I think having a
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strong team makes a difference.
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And I work with my father, my brother, who can you trust more than your family?
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And so that helps a lot because when I'm traveling and doing this stuff, they're
5:03
in New Zealand taking care of business.
5:06
I have a question, please.
5:07
Florian Kirsch: Sorry, go ahead.
5:08
Go ahead.
5:08
And with all the chairs you have right now in the family business,
5:12
does, every chair has an io?
5:14
Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: No.
5:15
Florian Kirsch: No.
5:16
Do you believe in this?
5:17
Okay.
5:17
In the future, like really every chair will have one
5:21
Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: or is
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Florian Kirsch: it's gonna be, I think it sounds good.
5:22
Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: I think it sounds good, but it's quite inefficient.
5:26
To have one every single chair.
5:28
It sounds nice, but look, I can put a scanner in every single chair.
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I have like over 30 scanners.
5:35
Yeah.
5:35
But usually each practice has one or two or three circulating scanners,
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Florian Kirsch: and it's more an investment reason.
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Or it's it just doesn't make any sense.
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I look from honest right now
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Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: unless I feel like, unless the scanner
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is built into the chair.
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Right now it's a laptop and a cut and you don't, maybe that's
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Florian Kirsch: something we kind invasion idea afterwards
5:55
Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: for allied stuff, if it's built straight into
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the chair, then it makes sense.
5:58
But look, I don't think it needs to be in every single room.
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I think it's normal to have a cart, but, it's a nice, it's a nice dream uhhuh
6:07
for it to be there in every single room.
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If any industry in particular, no.
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And if prices go down,
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George Raeber: Maybe one day it's going to be just part of equipment.
6:15
I just feel
6:15
Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: like one or two scanners in a clinic is plenty.
6:17
Yeah.
6:18
George Raeber: Let's talk maybe a little bit about the
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industry of digital dentistry.
6:22
So it's, when I looked at it, it's quite amazing.
6:24
So you have 10,000 subscribers on YouTube only.
6:27
You mentioned that you also have, let's say, a. Email subscription base of
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60,000 people that you reach out to.
6:34
So as you said in the beginning, I
6:35
Florian Kirsch: actually received sometimes two or three mail from him.
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Or maybe it's double.
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Maybe
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I,
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Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: you have to clean up your database.
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I know.
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I'll find Florian's name in the delete.
6:45
George Raeber: Don't, please don't.
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Please don't.
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What drives you what you try to achieve, because there is so much
6:50
hard blood that goes into it.
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You can feel that.
6:53
What is your goal with Institute of Digital Industry?
6:56
Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: Look the main reason why I started it was that the
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difficulty with finding information.
7:02
I always remember why I started IDD and it was very simple.
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It was a time when I had experience with triage plan Mecca and Cric Bluecam.
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And I sat in a study club of about 50, 60 dentists and a sales rep bought a 3M
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scanner, true vision, now discontinued.
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And he said, this is the best scanner in the world and this is the best.
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This was a yeah.
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Close to 10 years ago.
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And so the whole industry was different.
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And I was sitting there in the room watching people like believe
7:35
this, and I knew it was wrong.
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This was the time where powder used still had to do and and I just felt.
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This is the resource I wanted to have.
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And if no one was gonna build it, I was going to build it.
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Florian Kirsch: No, you were very
7:46
Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: successful
7:47
Florian Kirsch: with that.
7:47
Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: I was.
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Yeah.
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Look right place, right time, right person.
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I feel like it's a classic saying, you just if you work
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hard enough, you get lucky.
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That's true.
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George Raeber: Yeah.
7:57
But you also I think you hit the nail on the head with the information
8:00
that people are lacking because this comparison that you're doing and also
8:04
the details of information that you bring, I think it influences a lot
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of people to, for buying decisions.
8:09
And I believe this is what they also value a lot.
8:12
Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: And I'm like a clinician first.
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I'm not a. Press guy.
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I'm not a, IDD is now like a press machine, but I am a clinician first.
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I'm not a magazine, I'm not a newspaper.
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I'm not an advertising agency.
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And so I feel like this is why clinicians resonate with what I'm doing
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because clinicians like to hear from
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George Raeber: clinicians and it's it's real world expertise.
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It's not just theoretical and it's also
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Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: simple stuff like how does it work?
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Does it work?
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Yeah.
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Not the technicalities and the focal length and all these things.
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It's just how does it work?
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What are the flaws?
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What are the benefits?
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What's the pros, what's the cons?
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And more importantly, what's the cost Exactly.
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'cause in, in a time when I started with digital dentistry, it was
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even hard just to get a price.
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The price even to call the rep and get a price they would avoid and duh,
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nah, are you interested in buying?
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Now it's all transparent.
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Exactly
9:06
Florian Kirsch: how, I have a question.
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So how do you draw the, or do you draw any lines or how does it usually work?
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So companies come to you and said, I would like you to test my new product.
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Or you are actually said, yeah, I saw this new product here, over there.
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Do, are you interested in me testing those?
9:20
Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: I used to be, I used to ask, and now it comes to me.
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So when I first started, obviously, and I'll never forget.
9:30
This is a funny story.
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In 20 we're in IDS.
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So in 2019, why this was the time I released that scanner review that.
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Do you remember the first IDS review of scanners?
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Yeah.
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Came very famous.
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Yeah.
9:41
Yeah.
9:41
This is what started IDD and I'll never forget, it's funny 'cause looking
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through the window here, there's meta.
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I met
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George Raeber: it.
9:47
Yeah.
9:47
Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: And this is how it's.
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Started in 2019.
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I was a nobody.
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And so I went to the minute booth and they just launched and they
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were very cagey and scared of press.
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'cause they were scared as their first product launch.
9:59
Yeah.
9:59
And I asked them not for review.
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I just asked them, can I interview you?
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About your product, and I am not joking.
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I basically got kicked out of the booth, really kicked out as a
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George Raeber: potential customer.
10:12
They still were too scared to talk to you?
10:14
No, they were scared.
10:14
It was
10:15
Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: strange.
10:15
And also it was bizarre.
10:16
They're like what the hell is going on here?
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And I remember they had the.
10:19
I forget his name.
10:20
He's a lovely guy.
10:20
The American guy that really ran metal.
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I remember them.
10:23
Yeah.
10:23
Yeah.
10:23
He's very New York style or something.
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Yes.
10:26
And so he kicked me outta the booth.
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Go away.
10:28
Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: Go away.
10:29
Get the hell outta here.
10:29
What the hell you doing?
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And it's funny, it comes full circle.
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So back then I used to have to ask, but now I think.
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People realize what I'm doing and I've really tried to be credible,
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Uhhuh, it is fully transparent.
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I don't have an agenda.
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I just want to provide value.
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And now that I have the relationship with all the companies, it's much easier.
10:50
Yeah.
10:51
Do you reject products as well?
10:53
No, I wouldn't because
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Florian Kirsch: You're very good in you're very neutral now, so
10:56
you have pros and cons and maybe you receive a product instead.
10:59
Maybe on this product I only see cons.
11:02
Yeah, and I still have to
11:03
Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: find something positive about it.
11:04
Something really difficult to do that I'll be honest, like the thing is,
11:07
these days, most scanners scan, so you can always find a positive and the
11:13
ones that have cons are usually cheap.
11:16
Yeah.
11:16
So the positive is it's economical,
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that's
11:19
Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: how it is.
11:20
But I am very clear when something's wrong because I do
11:23
know, I am aware of the influence.
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Of what I do.
11:27
I hear it a lot, and I don't want to ever lead clinicians astray.
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It's very important to me.
11:32
A, yeah.
11:32
Yeah.
11:33
A cornerstone of what I started this for was to be an objective, trusted source.
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So I don't want to just talk about the good and not the bad.
11:42
Yeah, of course.
11:43
Of course.
11:44
George Raeber: So maybe for those who don't know IDD yet, maybe there
11:47
are not too many but can you explain a bit what resources you make
11:51
available and what does it stand for?
11:53
Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: Of course.
11:54
So I, DD is Institute of Digital Dentistry, and if you don't know,
11:57
please by all means go on the website institute of digital dentistry.com.
12:00
We're going to
12:01
have Thank you.
12:03
Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: I wish, it's a long.
12:05
Domain name, I really wanted to buy IDD, but it's already taken
12:09
and they want 5 million for it.
12:10
But it is primarily a free resource, IDD.
12:13
You can go on and you can go into our blog and we basically are like
12:17
a mixture of press and case reports and clinician reviews and unboxing.
12:23
So in these sort of events, I do a lot of press work where I'm just covering all the
12:26
latest things in a very objective tone.
12:28
It's not, wow, this is so revolutionary.
12:31
It's very objective.
12:32
This is what's out.
12:33
This is what's nice, but this is not nice.
12:36
And I think the main thing that we do is reviews.
12:38
This is what made us famous, is reviews of digital dentistry products.
12:41
And of course, look, I, IDD has grown from me just writing blogs to now a team of 10.
12:46
Just on IDD alone, fulltime.
12:48
Oh, wow, okay.
12:48
Yeah.
12:49
10 people now.
12:50
And so they're pre preparing it.
12:52
So No, I write everything.
12:53
You write everything.
12:54
No.
12:54
The product testings.
12:55
No.
12:55
I do all the testing.
12:56
The 10 people.
12:57
I do I still want to control this maybe a bit.
12:59
This is my dentist side coming out.
13:01
We're such control freaks, but no, the other 10 people
13:04
are things like video editors.
13:06
I have a team of video editors of, 'cause there's a lot of content you guys know?
13:08
Yeah.
13:08
Yeah.
13:09
That's a lot of work.
13:10
That's a lot of work.
13:10
Editing, professional on.
13:12
Yeah, so I have a very high standard.
13:14
And apart from that, we also do training.
13:16
So I do a lot of training in New Zealand, but I know around the world, I see our
13:21
database of around 60,000 people and the vast majority are not in New Zealand.
13:26
I think New Zealand's maybe 1% of our database.
13:29
30 40% is us.
13:31
30% is about Europe.
13:33
So in New Zealand, nobody knows you.
13:34
They know.
13:35
No.
13:35
They know.
13:36
They know.
13:37
But New Zealand is just not like a big market like us.
13:40
So what I also do, how many dentists do we have in New Zealand?
13:42
3,500. Oh.
13:44
So what I also do is a lot of, we have an online training platform as well.
13:47
So there's a lot of resources, but mainly I just.
13:50
Publish free stuff.
13:51
George Raeber: Cool.
13:51
And you have digital dentistry decoded as a new podcast I started.
13:55
So you are already having very nice resources there can you
13:59
tell us a bit more about it?
14:00
How did it actually land?
14:02
Yeah.
14:02
You see an impact
14:04
Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: that's another and the tips that you can
14:05
give, that's another fun project.
14:07
The tip is have interesting.
14:08
People on your podcast.
14:10
It's always fun, when you engage and you can just feel like you
14:13
click with whoever you are.
14:15
With the guests.
14:16
With the guests, it makes all the difference.
14:18
That podcast was interesting to me because I really like industry.
14:21
I really like industry and I have a lot of respect for people.
14:24
Like you and Florian and what you do because you guys are high level people.
14:28
And I think why that podcast started was there's a lot of dentist podcasts
14:33
a lot, and it's usually dentists talking to dentists, Uhhuh, and.
14:38
We get it.
14:38
It's the same KOLs constantly talking to each other, and I
14:41
have respect for these KOLs.
14:42
They're amazing clinicians.
14:44
I was very fortunate in the sense because of IDD and being like
14:48
Switzerland of digital dentistry, I'm friends with everyone.
14:51
I'm connected to every single digital dentistry company.
14:54
On a high level.
14:55
Yes, that's true.
14:56
And I was very lucky.
14:57
And it's a very unique proposition and I have deep conversations with every single
15:01
digital dentistry company and I could feel how inspired I would get talking to you.
15:06
And so I thought, look, why don't we make a podcast and invite these people?
15:10
And funnily enough, you guys are interested.
15:12
Let's have a chat.
15:13
But it's not like a marketing piece.
15:15
Like I challenge you.
15:16
If there's something wrong, I challenge the guest.
15:18
It's just fun.
15:18
There's so much looking forward to your questions yesterday.
15:21
It's only on your podcast.
15:23
We'll get you on, we'll have to get you on for, it's just fun.
15:26
You get run, you get Max Mills from Dense Supply.
15:29
We have to get you and on the podcast as well, or Andreas.
15:32
You get the medic guys and it's fascinating to me because it's an
15:35
insight that clinicians don't see before.
15:38
Exactly.
15:38
You industry guys.
15:39
That's true.
15:40
The clinicians just see you as, I don't know, in the back room, and
15:43
they don't actually realize how high level and smart you are and
15:46
how much you observe the industry.
15:49
And I feel like it's a really interesting perspective.
15:53
On dentistry that, because this is your business and I'm sure you care
15:57
very deeply about what's happening.
15:59
George Raeber: Absolutely.
16:00
Yeah.
16:00
Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: And so it's very interesting to tap into that
16:02
and have a discussion of what you are seeing, not just what the
16:05
clinicians are seeing on the trenches.
16:07
Florian Kirsch: It's true.
16:08
You are maybe the person who has the most holistic view of all the industry
16:12
players at the same time, maybe, I
16:13
Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: guess from a clinician point of view, but I feel like.
16:16
Higher level.
16:16
You guys also have a holistic view.
16:18
You guys have meetings with each other, but in a clinician view
16:21
Yeah I've talked to, I know pretty much the strategy of every company.
16:24
Yeah.
16:25
Yeah.
16:26
That's, we don't have regular discussions with our direct competi, but I'm also,
16:29
look, it's I think I've, the one thing I've done well is have credibility
16:33
in the sense that I've built trust.
16:35
George Raeber: Yes,
16:35
Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: that's huge.
16:35
And it's true.
16:36
It's very hard to build.
16:38
And it's very easy to lose.
16:39
It's easy to lose.
16:39
Yeah.
16:40
And so I'm very careful, when something is told to me.
16:44
It's just between us.
16:46
That's good.
16:47
George Raeber: But it's very interesting to listening to your
16:49
podcast because there is a lot of personalities from the dental field.
16:52
Yeah.
16:52
And you have some regular, you have some regular guests like run where every year
16:56
basically you look into the future, you talk about trends, and he's fun man.
17:00
And he's, and he
17:01
Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: has a lot of data.
17:02
George Raeber: Yeah.
17:03
Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: And people don't realize how much data that.
17:05
Industry has Yes.
17:06
Like ruin sees every single scan from three shape, where
17:09
it's sent, how long it takes.
17:10
This is fascinating.
17:12
George Raeber: This is also what we see when we do market research.
17:14
I think when we then share this also with with the dental community they really
17:17
appreciate, the global view because it's a different story in every country.
17:21
Yeah.
17:21
Yeah, that's, and it's nice.
17:22
It's
17:22
Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: nice, as we've done this podcast and it was purely just fun.
17:25
I just like talking to you guys.
17:26
Yeah.
17:27
I really enjoyed just talking and just having a discussion like friends.
17:30
And we've had nice feedback.
17:32
People enjoy the podcast, they tell me, oh, when I'm driving one.
17:35
How many
17:35
Florian Kirsch: subscribers do you have for the podcast?
17:37
Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: It's a, it's part of the same channel.
17:38
Okay.
17:39
So it's just on, on the YouTube channel.
17:41
So we have around 10,000 subscribers and on our Instagram we have around 20,000.
17:45
But to be honest, the main thing I did wasn't YouTube and Instagram.
17:49
I did mail list.
17:50
Mail list and platform, which is it's, it has its benefits 'cause
17:54
you're not at the mercy of, meta.
17:56
Yeah, exactly.
17:59
George Raeber: Goes an old channel.
18:00
Okay, so maybe let's switch gears a bit and talk about digital dentistry.
18:04
And maybe to start I would be very interested in your view on CAT ai.
18:09
What's currently happening in the field?
18:11
What do you observe?
18:12
Where do you believe is the field, heading to and what's what's at the forefront?
18:18
Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: First, it's no doubt the where dentistry is going.
18:22
There's no doubt in my mind, and I feel like simple things like a implant guide
18:27
or a simple crown design or a splint.
18:30
All of these tasks I. Soon in the future we'll be completely AI driven.
18:35
And it's like Roone says to quote Ro again, he's like here in spirit with us.
18:39
It's inspect incorrect workflow.
18:41
He's, he to he coins this term.
18:44
Yeah.
18:44
And I think this is where it's hitting.
18:45
And it's already really there.
18:46
It's just I still feel like clinicians have hesitancy towards ai.
18:51
And where do you think this coming from?
18:53
Lack of trust in the technology?
18:55
I feel like it's the same cycle that we faced with intra scanners.
18:59
When I used to teach in trial scanners close to 10 years ago, there was
19:04
real lack of trust in it working.
19:06
You would get scoffed at that.
19:07
It's better than impression.
19:09
Yeah.
19:09
Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: And now it's changed and I feel like we'll go through
19:11
the same technological curve with ai.
19:13
But I truly believe that look and it depends lab or chairside.
19:17
It's very interesting when we talk about these topics because lab.
19:20
And chairside, even though technicians and dentists, they're both teeth nerds,
19:26
they're totally different customers.
19:28
They're not even remotely close.
19:30
And so I feel like for lab, many are already employing
19:33
AI by finder and care ai.
19:36
Many are doing it automate, and I feel like it'll take a lot of the load of
19:40
these millennial, these menial tasks.
19:43
And the technicians can focus on things like.
19:46
Because me, dentures for mouth rehabs, things that AI can't do for the
19:50
clinicians, they're still clinicians.
19:52
I think mastering AI in whichever platform is gonna master AI, will
19:57
unlock chairside printing and milli.
20:01
Because right now it's still the number one barrier.
20:04
Absolutely.
20:04
Yeah.
20:05
I have a question.
20:06
It's not hard to print, right?
20:07
It's not hard to print at all.
20:08
It's hard to do.
20:09
The cad.
20:10
Florian Kirsch: You mentioned the impact on labs.
20:12
Yeah.
20:12
So if you put yourself in the shoes of a 30 5-year-old fresh lab owner Yeah.
20:18
Of a dental lab.
20:19
Yeah.
20:20
What would you, what would be your first top two, three priorities?
20:24
Digitize To invest in.
20:25
Digitize a hundred percent.
20:26
And to make sure that as well, the
20:27
Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: next 15, 20 years you're still there.
20:30
I would tell that lab guy if he's just fresh out of.
20:32
Technician school or something.
20:34
Technician school.
20:34
Yeah.
20:35
And most likely in technician school, he learned analog.
20:37
Yeah.
20:38
Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: I'll tell him, go do one month of xca or
20:41
three shape or CAD software.
20:43
You have to learn the asap.
20:45
Don't spend one week doing analog, but
20:49
it's, unless look,
20:50
Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: unless you want to be like layering guy
20:52
and a design lab, which is fine.
20:55
The, I feel like it's shrinking this market, but I feel like
20:58
you have to digitize asap.
21:00
Yeah.
21:01
Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: And the only way you digitize is learn
21:03
the skills and a key skill is cad.
21:06
How do you think the lab market will look like in 10 years from now?
21:10
We already know it's shrinking.
21:12
Technicians are shrinking.
21:13
Yeah.
21:13
Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: As a workforce, which is sad.
21:15
Yeah.
21:15
This is clear.
21:15
It's very sad.
21:17
But I really do think this is where AI will help though, if the
21:20
workforce is shrinking, AI can help make the workforce more efficient.
21:24
George Raeber: But it's also different profile, and if you don't learn the
21:27
digital dentistry in dental school, so it's difficult to also build a
21:33
profession based on that course.
21:34
Of course, when you're getting out course, course when you have to relearn, basically
21:38
what is actual today doesn't help.
21:39
And most universities
21:41
Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: doesn, most universities don't have it.
21:42
Dental digital dentistry curriculum.
21:45
Yeah.
21:45
Most.
21:46
And I think when I graduated, sorry to interrupt you.
21:48
No, go.
21:48
When I graduated, it was just shy of 10 years ago.
21:52
I was still doing amalgam.
21:54
I didn't do composite fillings.
21:55
Wow.
21:56
I didn't even know what a scanner was.
21:59
Was my dad.
21:59
My father always laugh at me because when I left dental school, the first thing
22:02
I asked him was, where's the amalgam?
22:03
Philly is it?
22:05
And he is what the hell are you talking about, son?
22:08
And I told him like, you know about the water and the uhhuh contamination?
22:12
And he was just like, oh, whatever.
22:13
Shut the hell up.
22:15
So you get your degree and then the, I feel like the real learning starts,
22:18
then I teach you the real stuff.
22:19
Yeah.
22:20
Okay.
22:20
Florian Kirsch: It's interesting, when you, we had this question at
22:22
the media event I. Where somebody asked, because we are, we put
22:27
our pillars, education is super important, and she was questioning us.
22:31
You, I see only digital AI and all of these things, so
22:34
do I really need education?
22:36
And obviously our answers, of course you, you need to understand giv, but you
22:40
need to understand the clinical side.
22:41
Of course you need to under soft tissue and all these
22:44
Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: things.
22:44
Of course, simple thing about AI people don't get is that a,
22:46
you still have to run the ai.
22:48
Exactly.
22:49
The AI is not a magical wand.
22:52
It's just like JGBT if you don't know the right prompt.
22:55
And it gives you a response.
22:57
If you don't understand the content, you don't know if
22:58
the content's right or wrong.
22:59
It's
23:00
Florian Kirsch: asking the right
23:00
Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: question.
23:01
You don't know.
23:01
And so you of course have to understand because if you just rely on ai, you
23:05
don't know if the margin is right.
23:06
You don't even know what a margin line is exactly.
23:08
So you have to learn the foundations.
23:10
All AI will do is make us more efficient.
23:12
But what does this
23:13
Florian Kirsch: mean then on the lab side?
23:14
Because on the clinician side, we're always going to have a lot of clinicians
23:17
who will go through university.
23:18
If you have more and more shrinking lab population who really learn this from
23:23
scratch and can really understand it.
23:25
Will AI sooner or later, really take this over or do, what do you see?
23:30
We see a lot of consolidation already happening in the, on the lab side.
23:33
A lot of p investing there.
23:34
Look,
23:35
Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: AI is unlocking things as well.
23:36
This is an interesting thing.
23:37
Like right now we have a few AI big players, three Shape with
23:40
automate Dent Bird at Automata ai.
23:43
They came outta nowhere.
23:44
These Egyptian guys and they made stackable guides.
23:47
Uhhuh.
23:47
Yeah.
23:48
I think, look.
23:50
AI is not going to totally replace everything we do, but I don't believe
23:56
a surgical guide for one implant should be done by a human start to finish.
24:01
If the AI chat GPT can pass the bar exam for law, I think you
24:07
should be able to make a guide.
24:08
They can a guide.
24:09
They can make a guide.
24:10
George Raeber: And I think it's spot on what you're saying.
24:13
There is this term called hallucination of alternative ai and.
24:17
If you don't know your you know how to build a crown and how it
24:21
needs to look like, you will not see whether it's wrong or not.
24:25
Now, what I found very fascinating is that it, it's moves from a
24:28
single crown even to maybe a full arch that AI starts to be building.
24:33
Where do you see, you're in contact with all of those companies,
24:36
Danbert, you mentioned anatomic.
24:38
I. What is the current leading company in terms of cat ai?
24:44
Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: Probably three
24:45
George Raeber: Shape, three shape,
24:46
Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: three shape, three shape In terms of like
24:48
the designs looking very good.
24:50
I would say Three Shape is the leader.
24:51
Dent Bird is close.
24:53
Atomic ai, a lot of them making these AI software Sprint, making a ca, ai.
24:58
The issue is you can make the cat ai, but it's hard to get
25:00
the proposals looking very nice.
25:02
This takes a lot of effort.
25:04
Florian Kirsch: Do you think
25:04
Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: it's efficient?
25:05
Florian Kirsch: What's happening right now in the industry that basically,
25:08
it started with segmentation, et cetera, and now everybody builds
25:13
AI for customized apartments.
25:15
And then the next is crown design, surgical planning.
25:18
All of these companies are there.
25:19
Everybody's investing a lot of money.
25:21
On smaller data sets with reshape having maybe one of the largest, and
25:26
at the end of the day, it's a lot of double and triple and quadruple, I feel.
25:30
I feel like the
25:30
Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: entire industry right now, the dentistry I feel like is a
25:34
genuinely, I think it's a bit of a mess.
25:37
Bit of a mess.
25:38
Okay.
25:38
Big time.
25:39
Yeah.
25:40
I don't think something as niche as dentistry needs 30 scanning products.
25:47
30 different.
25:48
In intro scanners.
25:49
So I think, and 10 different ais and 260 printers.
25:58
It's crazy though.
25:58
It's, I think it's needs to consolidate.
26:01
Florian Kirsch: So you believe that there will be significant
26:03
consolidation as well going through?
26:05
Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: I hope, because my job at IDD is getting very hard.
26:09
There's so many products
26:09
George Raeber: that you need to look at and compare.
26:11
Yeah.
26:11
Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: But look, I think you know what's gonna, I think
26:13
it's gonna drive the consolidation.
26:15
Is the r and d requirements.
26:17
Yes.
26:18
That's gonna drive consolidation because to release a scanning product, let's
26:22
say scanners, it was simple enough to.
26:25
Make a scanner that works.
26:27
Everyone can do it now and Chinese products can do it.
26:29
But for example, with this horizontal scan body wave that elite started.
26:34
It's not so simple to do this.
26:36
Nope.
26:36
And now you're gonna have two types of scanners now.
26:39
The ones that have the RD budget or the.
26:43
Collaborations like with True abutment, that Three Shape did.
26:46
And all of these scanners will have full arch solution.
26:49
And all the others, which don't have the r and d budget to do this, will not have it.
26:54
And now there's a very clear segmentation now in the market, and I feel like this
26:58
is what's gonna drive some consolidation.
27:01
And
27:01
George Raeber: probably it's going to be become much more expensive
27:05
to do incremental improvements.
27:07
So I think it, it has a lot to do also with the size of the
27:10
data that you have available.
27:12
Yeah.
27:12
I mean that free shape is probably leading the pack is not by chance.
27:15
There is, there's a lot of data behind that.
27:17
Huge.
27:18
And for smaller companies, and they were doing it first,
27:19
Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: there's a power in doing something first.
27:21
They're one of the first, like AI crown design, they were doing it
27:24
6, 5, 6 years ago or something.
27:26
George Raeber: I also believe that there could be a lot of drive also for
27:30
innovation if you have competition.
27:32
So I understand that having 30 scanners right now doesn't make sense.
27:36
However, if if there wouldn't have been competition, I think the price
27:40
would still be a hundred percent.
27:41
No.
27:41
I love competition.
27:42
Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: Look, it's been fascinating to watch the industry.
27:45
When I started, there was three scanners.
27:47
Crich plant mecca and trios.
27:50
And and I've been very involved, much like you guys have been
27:53
very involved as well in digital.
27:56
And I have to say it's been fascinating watching it change
27:59
'cause it's changed radically.
28:01
And at a extreme pace.
28:03
But I also feel like we're gonna get to the point where you're gonna
28:06
get some shrinkage of this market.
28:08
Because these booths are not cheap.
28:11
No.
28:12
No, definitely not.
28:13
No.
28:13
And you have some companies, I dunno how they're selling products Exactly.
28:17
But.
28:18
Time will tell.
28:19
This is like any market,
28:20
Florian Kirsch: right?
28:21
At the end of the day, when you look at the scanner market today, the only
28:24
thing what can really sustain high price levels is innovation, right?
28:28
Otherwise prices are going to come down.
28:30
Where do you see the biggest potential still on the, for the pure
28:34
IO companies out there to, we had now this huge wave of scan bodies,
28:39
et cetera, that shining started.
28:41
Now everybody has has to have one many come, you have to have one.
28:45
Is by the way, incredible.
28:46
Yeah.
28:47
But it's branching out, but a little bit more from the pure
28:50
scanning into workflow already.
28:52
No.
28:52
So where do you believe, big innovation do you think is that there will be still
28:56
a lot of hardware and AI innovation that can, where you can be able to sustain
29:01
price levels above 25,000 or something?
29:03
I truly
29:03
Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: believe it's going to be mostly software and
29:07
workflow innovation going forward.
29:09
There's a lot that can be done still with a scanner software.
29:12
I'll give you an example.
29:14
I think it would be amazing for a scanner after you do a crown
29:17
preparation, instantly the AI tells you if you've done sufficient reduction.
29:23
Yeah.
29:24
Why is it doesn't exist or instantly tells you, is the margin clear?
29:28
Yeah.
29:29
There's still room for software improvements that will actually make
29:32
clinical relevance to, to clinician.
29:34
I think the hardware game is starting to slow and it's starting to get a bit.
29:39
Boring.
29:40
Boring.
29:41
Same.
29:41
Yeah,
29:41
George Raeber: same.
29:41
Same.
29:42
Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: Smaller.
29:42
Smaller.
29:43
Wireless, smaller.
29:44
240 grams, 200 smaller.
29:49
Like it's been like this for maybe four years.
29:51
Yeah.
29:51
But the big innovations, I think, with Three Shape a
29:54
Rio, six, this is interesting.
29:55
I think this is a step in the right direction.
29:57
I think it's a big gamble for the company to price it at 28,000.
30:01
This is a big.
30:02
Yes.
30:02
Big move, which we'll have to see if it works out, but I think this is the
30:06
direction I they may branch into where it's, I feel like with all these platforms
30:11
and softwares, dentistry is still, I don't think it's very mature and digital.
30:16
I think it's beyond infancy, but it still needs, it could be much more seamless.
30:21
There's too much apps and opening things and many clicking and doing this.
30:25
Yeah.
30:25
I feel like Trios was the six.
30:27
It is in the right direction because you scan and then a thing opens and
30:31
it has all the different diagnoses.
30:32
And more solutions like this could develop.
30:35
'Cause AI can do a lot for us.
30:36
A scan is a lot of data, but the idea that you're gonna keep, you're gonna get
30:41
to a point where driving prices down, no one's gonna win a scanner is like 2000.
30:46
Now they're not very good, I have to say.
30:49
There's clear differences between the more high end scanner.
30:53
I would say anything mid-tier and higher end, the accuracy seems
30:57
to be in realm with each other.
30:59
The really cheap ones in my testing for full arch implant accuracy, most of
31:05
the market is around 20 to 30 microns.
31:08
Mid tier and higher, let's say over 13,000 and higher.
31:11
When you go to the two to 3000 scanners, they can be as high as
31:15
a hundred microns discrepancy.
31:17
Not all scanners are the same.
31:18
That's, but even this discussion is not being had.
31:21
No one knows.
31:22
It's just many products, a lot of marketing, a lot of brochures.
31:26
That's
31:26
George Raeber: easy to make brochures, but then the measurement actually shows.
31:29
Talking about precision, do you think photogrammetry is
31:32
soon a thing of the past?
31:34
I
31:34
Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: think it's a, I think it was a transitional solution.
31:36
Yeah.
31:37
George Raeber: So precision of IO scanners is sufficient to actually
31:40
do these scan, these horizontal scan
31:41
Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: bodies, in my own testing and I hope to publish
31:44
this paper hopefully this year.
31:45
Yeah.
31:46
I am convinced.
31:48
This is the way forward.
31:49
These horizontal scan bodies like Drew Abutment, I know you guys are developing
31:55
everyone's serious is developing.
31:56
We already have a strong exact solution.
31:59
Yeah.
31:59
But there's
32:00
Florian Kirsch: a
32:00
Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: lot of thinking
32:01
Florian Kirsch: about next generation, the generation after.
32:03
I think
32:03
Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: I think the really smart photogrammetry companies
32:06
pivoting, pick with the iPhone.
32:08
Yeah.
32:09
Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: And I think the ones that are gonna just say, oh, no,
32:12
we're more accurate, it's gonna be hard for them in the next few years.
32:15
So maybe let's talk about printing then,
32:17
George Raeber: so let's talk a little bit about printing before we talk
32:19
Florian Kirsch: a bit more about platform,
32:20
George Raeber: about platforms.
32:21
I'm sure Florian, you're very keen to talk about printing.
32:24
Yeah.
32:24
Obviously.
32:25
Florian Kirsch: First question maybe for you and I think you wrote a nice.
32:28
A nice article already today, but how do you see this partnership
32:32
with Sprint Ray of STR now?
32:34
I think
32:34
Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: it's probably the, it's one of the smartest
32:38
things you guys could have done.
32:40
'cause you picked the restorative printer.
32:42
I speak for a lot of printing companies form labs.
32:45
I see.
32:45
Again I don't change my.
32:48
My speech based on the booth I'm at.
32:50
I don't just go and say on the
32:51
Florian Kirsch: podcast.
32:52
Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: No I am very clear and I, and even the companies,
32:55
I feel like this is why I'm credible because they keep hearing me say
32:57
the same thing even to their face.
32:59
Yeah.
33:00
So to me, there's three top three printers in the marker right now
33:03
is the Sega Sprint Ray form lapse.
33:06
And to me, when someone asks me which one's the best.
33:08
It is very clear.
33:10
A CIGA is the lab printer.
33:11
If you want something open, very precise, very nice.
33:14
But sprint ray dominates chair site.
33:17
Especially with the Midas, it's a precision not precision instrument, but
33:21
it's precisely made for the clinician.
33:23
Florian Kirsch: Exactly.
33:24
And how do you think the whole, like resin r and d is going to evolve?
33:28
So what do you like if you had to make a guess right now, in two years
33:31
from now, or three years from now?
33:33
I'm hoping what can we do?
33:34
I'm
33:35
Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: hoping that.
33:36
The resins improve and they already have improved.
33:39
'cause I've been using their resins since some of their first generation
33:43
kind of onyx, and then they said ceramic crown and now they have ht.
33:48
And you can see improvements.
33:49
I wouldn't say they're groundbreaking, but they are improvements.
33:52
Uhhuh and the sprint rate guys know me quite well now.
33:55
Speaking for them.
33:57
Originally I used to tell them like, I don't like it.
33:59
I used to tell it to them, I don't believe in this.
34:01
Because the resins weren't there.
34:03
The, I wouldn't say the gap is closing towards zirconia and emax
34:07
'cause that gap will never close.
34:09
You're comparing.
34:10
Resin to ceramic.
34:11
Yeah.
34:12
But the gap that is closing is what is acceptable.
34:16
What is good enough?
34:16
What's good enough?
34:17
That's the gap that's closing.
34:18
And when that closes, I think we're gonna have a paradigm shift.
34:21
Just like before EMAX was released, everyone in dentistry did middle.
34:25
Middle crowns, gold crowns, PFM.
34:28
And if you told someone ceramic.
34:31
Like a joke if you say to the posterior ceramic, maybe some expert with really
34:35
nice preps, but no one really did it.
34:37
Mass market.
34:38
And I feel like with resins it's the same thing.
34:40
The material companies, all these material, big industry
34:45
uhhuh are taking note.
34:46
You can see the partnerships that are being announced, ILA.
34:50
3M Health, which is now I can't remember the name so I
34:53
don't know what this name is.
34:54
Name.
34:54
I don't know where this is coming from, right?
34:55
I don't know.
34:55
I don't wanna say something off.
34:57
Bring that down.
34:57
The hall.
34:57
I don't know what this name is.
34:59
Sounds like Lee or something.
35:02
Exactly.
35:03
Creative name.
35:04
But anyway, they're all doing partnerships.
35:07
The issue is that we need to see the results Exactly.
35:10
Final.
35:10
The partnerships are nice.
35:11
The, we need to see something final printed crown.
35:16
Do you think it's possible?
35:17
Yeah.
35:17
A hundred percent.
35:18
It's final.
35:19
Not, it's always will it last forever?
35:21
Nothing lasts forever.
35:22
No.
35:22
An implant doesn't last forever
35:23
George Raeber: and it's digital.
35:24
You can reprint it.
35:24
At which point is
35:24
Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: it good enough for us?
35:25
And that is, depends on every clinician is different.
35:28
What their risk profile and what they're happy to accept.
35:32
If composite crown, 'cause that's what they are right now.
35:34
Resin with some fillet.
35:37
If it can last five years, are you happy?
35:41
If it can last 10 years?
35:43
Right now, I think with Risen Crown's, the main issue is staining.
35:47
And wear.
35:48
That's the main issues because they're not glazed like ceramic.
35:50
Ceramic is like a plate.
35:52
Yeah.
35:52
It's a glassware is what whatever curry food you put on
35:55
it, it still matches its color.
35:57
Yeah.
35:58
Resinous porous and this is a big challenge.
36:01
Exactly.
36:01
The other thing is the color.
36:03
The multilayer.
36:03
But to be honest, for posterior it's not the end of the world
36:07
Exactly.
36:07
Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: But like the staining.
36:09
And the other thing is the wearing down because some reasons are
36:11
wearing down within six months some.
36:13
And the issue now is the industry's too fast.
36:15
Every two, three months we get a new resin uhhuh.
36:17
So I think the dust will settle.
36:19
Eventually,
36:20
George Raeber: but then you will see what survives, what's
36:22
Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: good, what's not.
36:23
But I. Look, I've seen composites that have been placed by clinicians.
36:28
That's like bulk fill.
36:30
That's last five years.
36:31
It's good enough exactly.
36:32
Okay.
36:32
And I think that the interesting thing is the workflow makes it very compelling.
36:39
Like with Midas, I had a case I showed at the booth to crown side by
36:43
side to print two is seven minutes to wash this a minute or two.
36:47
To kios three minutes, two crowns in 10 minutes.
36:49
Florian Kirsch: Yeah.
36:50
No, that's a
36:50
Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: game changer.
36:51
That's starting to feel interesting.
36:52
Yeah.
36:53
Now I want it just to work for the sake of working.
36:56
I want it to work, but this is where it's a bigger picture than will
37:01
printed crowns replace ceramic.
37:04
But it's more than they have to look at the big picture.
37:06
Florian Kirsch: Yeah.
37:07
A, a big foundation of the sprint rate partnership, and I am really interested in
37:11
your perspective on this side is, that we.
37:15
And throughout the whole discussions with Amir and the team and Eric it
37:19
was a lot about the joint vision.
37:21
And we now create, for them it's like they are a hardware manufacturer.
37:25
They have created this and they've created resin.
37:27
Now they have evolved.
37:29
They have their platform.
37:31
But now about they, I think they well realized that, to take the next step into
37:35
the workflow when you want to be in on our side now on the implantology side, and you
37:40
really want to have game changing products potentially customized abutment printed
37:46
in the future, something like this.
37:47
That it needs a lot of a very different industry expertise to help them get there.
37:51
Do you think that can become a bigger trend in the industry when we talk?
37:54
A bit about consolidation and this,
37:56
Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: I definitely think it's gonna go towards solution based.
38:00
Yeah.
38:00
Not feature based things.
38:02
So we need solutions.
38:04
And to have a solution, you need the end-to-end solution.
38:07
So I definitely think companies like Sprint Ray partnering with you is very
38:12
smart because you have a scanner, which was a great acquisition by the way.
38:17
And you will hopefully develop some CAD or work with some CAD or AI
38:22
ca and then you need your output.
38:24
Correct.
38:25
And I feel like more with all the noise that's around us, I feel like
38:29
clinicians don't want to piecemeal.
38:32
Solutions.
38:33
Everything's together.
38:34
George Raeber: This is very common.
38:35
They want
38:35
Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: to go and they go somewhere and this is the portfolio.
38:39
This is what you can do.
38:40
This is how it all talks to each other.
38:42
Florian Kirsch: Yeah.
38:43
It was a, as well, part of the vision when we discussed with Sprint Way, because
38:46
I think it's a, it was a big step for them as well, because they have a very
38:50
successful platform around their printers.
38:52
Now, I'm just saying, I'm sure everyone's asking them, and I'm integrating this
38:55
like natively with access to really drive this and for them as well, it
39:00
was a lot about always, customer first.
39:01
What is the customer experience?
39:03
If I'm there on this platform, then I have to jump and I have to go back, et cetera.
39:07
This is not the seamless, fully integrated workflow.
39:10
And so they really gave up their.
39:12
Platform.
39:12
What?
39:13
For them it's as well, a lot of it's a big of data and, these kind of
39:16
things is that I'm really committing for the sake of the, of our customers
39:21
out there and to really make this as seamless and easy as possible.
39:25
I think that's a huge step and kudos to the team and I really hope that this can
39:29
be as well, something that we'll see more often in the industry now because I think.
39:33
Clinicians are sick and tired of going, jumping from left and right
39:37
and up and down to all of these platforms where nothing sinks.
39:40
No,
39:41
Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: I agree.
39:41
I totally agree and I think that problem is not solved yet.
39:45
No, and it's a big problem
39:48
George Raeber: and it's I think it's also when many ONG parts
39:50
a big possibility to innovate.
39:52
I think this is where, the consultation will come together with utility.
39:55
So where actually we can provide if we make this work quite a utility also to to
40:00
customers and hopefully also then gain the the acceptance to, to use our ecosystem.
40:07
Now I feel that we could talk another hour about this.
40:10
So time is it's too much fun.
40:12
It's yeah, it's running very quickly.
40:14
I'm, this question I, of course have to ask.
40:16
So what stood out for you so far, what you saw at the ideas this year?
40:20
Is there anything that actually popped out where you see, oh, that's I didn't know
40:24
about it and it was really noteworthy.
40:27
Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: See, I. I usually learn about most things before.
40:30
Before that.
40:31
Yes.
40:32
Yeah.
40:32
But I would say, look, there are some things, I think this whole dynamic
40:36
of everyone trying to make a pod or a capsule now is interesting.
40:39
The CIGA release the pod and I think they're fantastic printers.
40:42
So they're really challenging this.
40:44
They're not just gonna let Midas, of course, take over.
40:47
Take over.
40:47
This is very interesting to me, but.
40:50
Look, nothing super crazy.
40:53
I think we've already had those events in the past year.
40:55
I think Midas was one of those events.
40:57
I think was like a big leapfrog.
40:59
No one expected it.
41:00
I think shining elite with this photogrammetry was a big leapfrog.
41:03
This caught the whole industry by surprise.
41:06
I didn't feel like anything was super surprising, but there was
41:09
interesting things like now I think it's this platform era.
41:13
Where you walk around and every company in digital is talking about a platform.
41:20
And now it's gonna see who's going to win?
41:22
Yeah.
41:23
Because we don't need 10 different platforms.
41:26
Florian Kirsch: And it goes back to your first argument at a certain point
41:28
in time, this this platform investment gets so prohibitively expensive.
41:32
Exactly.
41:33
That there needs to be some kind of consolidation sooner or later.
41:36
Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: It's definitely all about platforms now.
41:37
It's look, the usual stuff I'm sure you're sick of hearing.
41:40
AI is everywhere and printing is everywhere.
41:42
We get it.
41:43
It's everywhere.
41:43
It's here.
41:45
I really think it's this platform game that's gonna happen, and I think there's
41:48
a lot of resistance, to be honest.
41:50
I don't think I hear a lot of nice stories by industry about platforms.
41:55
I don't think clinicians at the same level of where the industry think they are.
42:01
Yeah, I think industry make a nice story of why clinicians should move.
42:06
I don't think many clinicians want to move.
42:09
What's the resistance?
42:11
Where's the resistance coming from?
42:12
Why do I need to change?
42:14
Yeah,
42:14
Florian Kirsch: exactly.
42:15
Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: That's always, and a lot of the stories,
42:16
I don't think it's really I don't think it's really understanding.
42:20
Sometimes industry creates a problem to create a solution and
42:26
it makes a really nice story.
42:27
But it's it's really, you need to, you to, for this platform thing to work,
42:32
it needs to be so compelling that you don't have a choice but to be on it.
42:36
And I don't think the compelling things are AI diagnostics and.
42:39
Cloud sharing and collaboration and no, this is not the, this is not the key.
42:45
I don't know what the key is, but I don't think it's, that's the compelling thing.
42:50
I think it has to be so compelling that everyone will
42:52
want to be on it by necessity.
42:54
I.
42:54
Yeah.
42:54
And I think,
42:55
Florian Kirsch: Customers or potential customers will need a lot of assistance
42:59
in the transition now because it entails in many areas a lot of process changes.
43:04
And in the clinic.
43:05
And for them it's and what's the benefit, like after all of this,
43:08
Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: what is the benefit Exactly.
43:09
And then I also have to pay a subscription fee.
43:11
What did I get out of it?
43:12
I got some AI diagnostics and I can share some BCTs on the cloud.
43:16
Uhhuh, that's not enough.
43:18
Florian Kirsch: Yeah, I distinctly remember one of, had one of the reviews
43:20
of our, it was a competitive platform of us and I think your live was
43:25
your last sentence where you're out.
43:26
It's a really amazing platform and I'm really stunned why
43:31
nobody knows about that.
43:32
And I think this really puts it the hits the nail on the head.
43:35
It's it's very d you can build.
43:36
And this is, I think, a bit the industry problem or not problem, but the challenge
43:41
we have is like we you can dream up the most amazing platform and with all
43:46
the bells and whistles and features, et cetera, but if you are not able to
43:50
really, find the right, solution and customer segment who really wants to
43:55
adopt that and who is really, because you will have early adopters, of course, DSOs
43:58
are very course interested, obviously, because scale DSOs of surveillance,
44:03
Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: I think.
44:04
Florian Kirsch: But I think at anti the, of course, I
44:06
Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: think DSOs like platforms because it's a lot of data.
44:10
Yeah, of course.
44:10
And D and DSOs love that stuff.
44:12
But DSOs, I know they're big and they're a big segment in the US and I love DSOs.
44:16
But they're not a mass market.
44:18
No, exactly.
44:19
They are in the states, maybe, but I think mass market I haven't seen a compelling
44:24
argument to go and jump onto a platform.
44:28
And I'm the digital guy.
44:31
George Raeber: So that's another discussion that will take a little
44:33
bit longer, but it's very interesting.
44:35
Another 45 minutes.
44:36
Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: Exactly.
44:37
George Raeber: But this brings us already to close to the end.
44:39
So we would also like to give you the chance to ask
44:42
Florian and myself questions.
44:43
Now you can the questions Yeah, exactly.
44:45
Of course.
44:45
Take the
44:46
gloves off.
44:47
Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: Yeah.
44:47
Yeah.
44:48
Look, I have a question for you guys.
44:49
You guys.
44:50
And I always ask industry about these things.
44:52
It's not just about what I saw and what I think.
44:55
'cause you guys have the finger on the pulse, it's part of your business.
44:59
What did you see?
45:00
What are some things that excite you in this idea?
45:03
What are things that you think are overlooked, maybe will
45:06
be big trends in the future?
45:09
George Raeber: So I would see two things.
45:10
So the first one is digital surgery as a whole topic.
45:14
And with this, from.
45:16
Digital planning to guides, to dynamic navigation, to robotics.
45:20
I, we see this as a continuum and I believe that this is going to be very
45:26
close to becoming so easy to actually use that there will be the question
45:31
from surgeons why should I not?
45:34
Know exactly the the location of my instrument, because the
45:38
setup time is almost nothing.
45:40
Yeah.
45:41
George Raeber: And technically I believe we're really close to that.
45:44
Then it's also the question of adaption.
45:46
But this is something that fascinates us quite a bit because it's it's
45:50
building the it interval, GPS basically of for dentistry that, you guys are
45:55
doing so much precision work and knowing where you are all the time.
46:01
I think that opens up a lot of possibilities to make the work
46:05
easier, more efficient, and maybe also less less mistake prone.
46:09
I feel like there needs a whole culture shift.
46:12
Florian Kirsch: How do you see this as a clinician?
46:13
Let's say you have done a device, but actually this, I like it like
46:16
I following you and recording every single step that you, I don't mind this.
46:19
Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: I still, I personally believe
46:21
it will always be niche.
46:23
Okay.
46:23
Because I feel surgical guides are so good now and so cheap.
46:26
Surgical guides work very well.
46:28
I know you don't have the live feedback, but and surgical guides now are very
46:34
fast to make and they're very cheap to produce and we still don't have
46:39
close to mass mark on surgical guides.
46:42
Maybe it's 10%.
46:43
Yeah, something like that.
46:45
Exactly.
46:45
So
46:46
Florian Kirsch: exactly these internal discussions.
46:47
And so if it's 10%
46:49
Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: on surgical guides and they're very cheap, what's
46:52
a percentage on a $20,000 unit?
46:54
And I feel like it's not so much that the units don't work or something, I
46:56
think it's just a culture that needs to change about implantology and changing
47:00
this mentality that you are an amazing clinician just 'cause you can do a
47:04
freehand anywhere else in the world.
47:08
If I. Had to go get brain surgery and he said, I'm gonna do a free hand.
47:11
I'll be like, what the hell's going on here?
47:12
Yeah.
47:13
George Raeber: Eye surgery.
47:14
Eye surgery.
47:14
There is a lot of these let's say trends that actually go in that direction.
47:17
But I agree with you.
47:18
It's the question is why are guides, for example, not higher penetrated?
47:23
I think it'll also change with, chest that production.
47:25
Yeah.
47:26
'cause there is still an under penetration of, let's say,
47:28
Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: and I also think it's again, I think it's generational.
47:31
Yeah.
47:31
I think the newer generation more techs, more tech accepting these sort of things.
47:35
The other thing I, I think about surgical guides is a lot of people
47:41
got burnt badly in the first generation of surgical guides.
47:44
And that put them off technology.
47:45
They still remember, they say they still remember.
47:47
Yeah.
47:47
It's like people that tried the first generation scan and will never scan again.
47:51
So the first generation of surgical guides were very rough.
47:54
Yeah.
47:54
It was a tough time.
47:56
And you would do it and then the implant's wrong and you're
47:58
like, why am I doing this?
47:59
It's come a long way.
48:01
Florian Kirsch: Yeah.
48:01
No, but we had these discussions about this kind of dynamic navigation
48:05
devices internally as well.
48:07
And then.
48:07
And I think we can share this.
48:08
When we first launched Falcon, it was like really a lot of internal discussions.
48:13
There's something, is that something really exciting for our customers?
48:16
And we had many discussions with GUI at the time.
48:18
Said, ah, I'm not sure if this is, yeah, maybe it's good to test the market.
48:22
And it was surprising when we had the international aesthetic days in Majorca.
48:26
We had I think we had 50 or something like this, and they were gone after one day.
48:29
Yeah.
48:30
Wow.
48:30
George Raeber: So they were all sold out and it was crazy.
48:32
Amazing.
48:32
And since
48:32
Florian Kirsch: then we're like more in the learning mode where we say something
48:36
is there, something is happening.
48:37
'cause these are expensive devices.
48:38
No, it's and Estes were a lot of and look,
48:40
Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: when you use it, it is amazing.
48:41
I've used X Guide.
48:42
I don't think I've used a Falcon, but I've used X Guide.
48:44
I've used Navient.
48:46
It is amazing.
48:47
Yeah.
48:47
At the of the day, it's still too
48:48
George Raeber: clunky in a sense that, it takes a lot of preparation time.
48:50
Ah, yeah.
48:50
If that goes away.
48:51
Exactly.
48:52
This is still the resistance.
48:53
You don't need to, let's say, worry about the trackers and all,
48:55
and the calibration, and then
48:56
Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: every time you change a tool you have to,
48:58
George Raeber: but, technically I believe that we're close to
49:01
breakthroughs on that area.
49:02
So that's why I think it's, and when you
49:03
Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: watch it being done, it feels like this is the future.
49:06
You park assistance.
49:08
Yeah, exactly.
49:09
In the car, would you,
49:10
George Raeber: of course you can park without it Exactly.
49:12
Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: But would you turn it off?
49:13
I can't, man.
49:13
Every time I crash my car, every time I've crashed my car,
49:17
it was reversing every time.
49:18
Okay.
49:18
It's happened four times.
49:19
Florian Kirsch: Do you believe that, sorry I trust a follow up question
49:22
that I had of the top of my mind.
49:24
Do you believe that in the future.
49:27
Like remote monitoring will play a role in our industry, like so Pathology maybe.
49:32
So
49:32
Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: look for orthodontics of course Makes, makes
49:34
Dental Monitor monitoring was the first unicorn dental business.
49:37
Do you remember this news?
49:39
Yeah.
49:39
Dental monitor.
49:40
Yeah.
49:40
So I think, look, I think for orthodontics makes a lot of
49:44
sense for many other things.
49:46
I don't think patients want to hear from us, to be honest.
49:49
Maybe wear or something.
49:51
Yeah.
49:51
But I think there's definitely a, it's an orthodontic thing.
49:55
I can't imagine talli dentistry being just cameras and these sort of things.
50:01
Yeah.
50:01
'cause with dentistry, you still need radiographs.
50:03
You can do a very limited examination without radiographs.
50:06
Yeah.
50:07
Florian Kirsch: Yeah, no, I mean we had a lot of discussion actually with
50:10
dental monitoring about this super genius idea whether it will ever, spill
50:14
over into other parts of dentistry
50:18
Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: possibly.
50:18
But again, it's just we're actually quite limited what we can see with our eyes.
50:22
Yeah,
50:23
Florian Kirsch: that's true.
50:24
That's true.
50:25
George Raeber: Yeah.
50:25
Inal imaging in, in a whole sense, not just optical.
50:28
I think that's also another, very interesting trend to look at.
50:31
With optical coherence tomography or ultrasound.
50:35
Looking into the body without having x-ray.
50:37
Now we have
50:37
Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: MRIs.
50:38
PY didn't supply.
50:39
They'll be
50:40
George Raeber: interesting.
50:40
Very expensive.
50:41
That's MR MRI is a shooting with the big cannon.
50:44
That is a big cannon.
50:45
But anyhow, yeah.
50:45
Maybe it's a canon that's a rocket show.
50:47
Exactly.
50:47
It can be miniaturized as well.
50:49
Sure.
50:50
Alright.
50:50
I think that really brings us to the end of of this very interesting I would say.
50:54
And personal talk with you.
50:56
So thanks a lot for all the insights.
50:58
Thank you.
50:58
Thanks a lot for spending time with us.
50:59
Appreciate your time.
51:00
Yeah.
51:00
Hey, that was
51:01
Dr. Ahmad Al-Hassiny: a great conversation.
51:02
Thank you for having me.
51:02
And it's always an honor to, to speak with industry leaders like
51:05
yourself and it's an honor to be here at the Straumann booth at IDs 2025.
51:09
It's so we make this a regular now.
51:10
No, I hope so.
51:12
We're gonna meet again.
51:13
We're gonna have our own.
51:14
We're gonna have our own trends, not just run.
51:17
Yeah,
51:18
George Raeber: We're gonna have the trends also of implantology.
51:20
So to all the listeners thanks a lot for staying with us.
51:23
I hope this was very informative and interesting and please subscribe and
51:28
if you want to get in contact with us, then use the digital platforms to us.
51:32
So ask questions.
51:33
Whenever we get them, we try to mingle them into our next podcast and stay
51:38
tuned and look forward to the next conversation that we're going to have with
51:42
interesting personalities in dentistry.
51:45
Perfect.
51:45
Thank you.
51:46
Thank you.