Latest / Making Shooters Better / The Mind Behind the Threat: Psychopaths, Stalkers, Violence, and the Myths That Keep Us Vulnerable

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The Mind Behind the Threat: Psychopaths, Stalkers, Violence, and the Myths That Keep Us Vulnerable · Making Shooters Better

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: I remember this from my uh profiling class in my master's program.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_00: 70% of murder is situational.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: That's a that's a huge percentage, meaning you're in a bar, you get pissed off, somebody like hits on your girlfriend, and you you kill them.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: Or now you see all these road rage uh incidents.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: Nobody planned that.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_03: No.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_01: And welcome to Making Shooters Better, brought to you by Laser Ammo.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_01: I'll tell you more about them later.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_01: I'm your host, Terry Vaughan, and today, I know if I had a drum roll I could put in, I would.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_01: We have Dr.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_01: Mary Beth Wilkesjankey back on Making Shooters Better.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_01: And this time, we are stepping into the mind behind the threat.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: Now, for those of you who didn't catch the first interview, I absolutely recommend you go back and listen to it.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_01: But Mary Beth's career has gone from protection, she worked with the Secret Service, into the deeper, darker, and often misunderstood world of forensic psychology.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_01: She studied human behavior from both sides of the danger equation.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_01: That's from people trying to prevent violence, but also the people trying to understand it after the fact.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_01: In this conversation, we're going to be talking about criminal behavior, psychopaths, stalking, domestic violence, fear, lying, body language, and whether violence can truly be predicted.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: It is one hell of a lineup for today.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_01: But underneath all of that is one central question.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: What do dangerous people teach us about human behavior?
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: And how can the rest of us become safer, calmer, and also harder to manipulate?
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: So this is not this is not an episode trying to get your paranoia up.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_01: It's about becoming harder for criminal minds to fool you.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: So Dr.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: Mary Beth, this is the first time I've had a chance to say, welcome back to the podcast.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: This is so fun.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we had so much fun the first time that how could we not do part two?
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: I know.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I felt kind of bad because the first interview was amazing, but I kept wanting to veer off with all these extra questions.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, you must stay focused.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm really pumped about this.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, awesome.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: Me too.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_01: I think most people study either danger, behavior, and the mind.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_01: But you've literally spent your career studying all three.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_01: So what took you from the Secret Service into and then along the path that where you became a forensic psychologist?
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we're gonna, you know, we're gonna jump all over the place today, but you know, in in a lot of ways, I've said to people, oh, I I probably should have gotten my degree in forensic psychology before the Secret Service.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: But the fact is, it wouldn't have mattered the order.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: One really informs the other.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like I think it has to do with birth order, being the fifth kid of seven, and just being an observer that I just became really good at as a natural thing, just understanding behavior.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought everybody was like, like, I'd say, oh my God, you know, don't you think blah, blah, blah, blah.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: And someone's like, how do you know that?
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, well, doesn't everybody?
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it just became innate for me.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: It can be taught and it can be sharpened and it can be um expanded.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: I do think I have a little bit of a natural, which can be a little bit annoying, to be honest, like, because you're constantly looking at what everybody does and why, but it can also be fascinating.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: So when I when I made this decision, Secret Service, then I went to the private sector and I was sitting at a command post in Port au Prince, Haiti, and um making, you know, I just won't even say everything that played into that, but I'm sitting there and going, you know what?
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: I have to get the fuck out of this business.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: I'm too smart.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm gonna, I'm gonna get out of here and go back to grad school.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_00: And so I let them know um I was leaving and it, I came back to the U.S.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_00: I ended up working a job for a year because the program I applied to, which was at the time the only approved accredited course by the APA, it was in New York City at what's called John Jay College of Criminal Justice, John Jay being the first ever Supreme Court judge.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I did not study psychology undergrad.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_00: So I needed more psychology credits.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_00: So I worked a job in Dallas for a year.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I studied, you know, again, this is like your audience has to understand this was the the 90s.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_00: And so we did correspondence courses.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_00: Do you remember those?
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_00: You signed up for a course, you did the assignments, you sent them in by mail to the professor, he would grade them and send them back.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: So it took a while.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_00: And so then, yeah, I eventually got into the program and started that in 1990.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_00: So no, that was when I did all that was 1996, 97.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_00: So that got into the program starting January 98 and finished at the end of 99.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_01: I find that fascinating on a couple of fronts.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_01: First off, my first official training was while I was still in the military, and it was on body language and human behavior and interviewing.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I did it primarily because at the time I was going to be stationed and in London interviewing prospective Royal Marine commandos.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I wanted to be better at it.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_01: So I went and took a course.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_01: But I grew up with a violent father, which meant that my scanning of the environment and people, particularly people, was enhanced, even though I had no idea it had been enhanced.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_01: I had no idea, just like you.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_01: I just thought everybody saw it.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_01: And that first class, they were playing some clips, and I'm going, Well, didn't you see that behavior?
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_01: Now I didn't know what the name of it was.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't know a gestural retreat.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't know, you know, about the blink rate or licking lips and things.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm like, but you didn't see that?
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_01: And everybody else is sitting there going, not really, no.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_01: And no, I'm like, really?
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_01: So it was somewhat of a surprise to find that, you know, turning lemons into lemonade, that that experience growing up, which made me very apprehensive for a good portion of my childhood, actually morphed into something bloody useful.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_01: So the parallels there for me with you kind of discovering by accident, you're like, oh, hold on, this isn't eight.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_01: Like I had training growing up.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: It's absolutely brilliant.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I think there are plenty of us out there, and maybe some people realize it and have used it for their careers, and others just kind of understand people better, regardless of the profession they go in.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_01: And you're also right that it's bloody annoying.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's bloody annoying for everyone around because you're constantly looking.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_01: You're always you can't turn off.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:20
  unknown: Yeah.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_00: You can't.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_00: No, it's true.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I'll be taught.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like, let's say you and I were sitting in a restaurant having lunch.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_00: We'd probably be doing the same thing, but let's say you didn't have it.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like always looking around and I'm like, I'm sorry, I'm not not listening to.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_00: I just have to make sure we're safe.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_01: It absolutely.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_01: I say initially it drove my wife nuts because she's like, you're just not attentive to me when we go out.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, trust me, I'm here.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_01: I'm anchored in the moment.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: However, I'm also scanning this place in case things go sideways or looking for the potential issues.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's just something you can't, you know, switch on or off.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's just kind of buried in there.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_01: So you'd have an anxiety attack if you turned it off.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I sweat profusely.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_01: Occasionally when I have to go out, you know, work or friends, you know, most of my friends will know I gotta I gotta face the door, I've got to see the room, or see the majority of the room.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_01: I can't do it any other way.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_01: But on those occasions when I cannot do that, I start sweating.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: Just having my back to all the shit that's gone on behind me.
• 7:14
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• 8:51
  SPEAKER_01: So what did the Secret Service teach you about human behavior that perhaps psychology later helps you either understand or explain?
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_00: Similar to what you just said a second ago, it kind of gave the the well, it it gave me the exposure to a both investigations and protection, which means a lot of different people, not just the people we were protecting, but the people I was working with.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: And then investigations, obviously, such a wide variety, again, co-investigators, criminals.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: I did a lot of Spanish, I'm at the time and now, but bilingual in Spanish.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_00: And so I did a lot of interviews in the counterfeiting division, counterfeit division because of the Spanish.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: It was always South American countries that were producing the counterfeit.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_00: And then later, when I did my master's in forensic psychology, it kind of gave me the verbiage and the like, you're like, oh, that's what that was?
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_00: He was a psychopath or he was a whatever or whatever.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: So sometimes, like you said, it was just gut intuition, same thing.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but then later I got the like what it what it meant.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_00: That's why I said sometimes it would have been cool to do it ahead of time, but it happened the way it happened for a reason.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_01: Well, a couple of things that I think uh most people when you think of the about the Secret Service, they think about protection, they think about the you know the people that protect the president, etc.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_01: But it's actually, and correct me if I'm wrong, but it's a financial crimes unit first.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's a primary role for them.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_01: That's how it began.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_01: So talk a little bit about that because I don't think a lot of people even know that about the Secret Service.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm thinking it was like, I gotta think of what year it was that we started.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_00: I used to have this all in my brain, but whatever year it was, um, we started, that's why we used to be part of the Department of the Treasury, is because we started out strictly to combat um counterfeit currency.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_00: Because at the time, almost 50% that was in circulation in the country was counterfeit.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_00: That was the Department of Treasury started this unit that after a couple of assassination attempts on presidents, then they expanded their role.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_00: And then the counterfeit also, you know, accessed device fraud because it wasn't just credit card anymore, it was also debit card and all that.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: And then it was check fraud.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_00: So they do what they have all these divisions in that arena, along with all the different arenas of protection, you know, protective intelligence, advanced, like all those divisions as well.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_00: So it really, like you say, most people think we only do protection, but it is investigative.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's just depending on whether you're in a field office doing both or whether you're specifically just assigned to a protectee president, vice president, former president, one of their spouses, one of their kids.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_01: So if you want to get into the protection portion, do you have to kind of you know cut your teeth doing the financial crime stuff first?
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: So, like, okay, go to my experience, Washington field office called WFO, it was the MP epicenter of all protection because that's where the president and the vice president and their families are, and where all the foreign dignitaries, we used to call them foreign digs, all the foreign dignitaries come in on official visits.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: So every day, so much protection.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, in and out of Andrews Air Force Base for the president and vice president.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: And so, like, I don't know how they do it now, but it used to be you'd walk in every morning, you'd go to like your little like sort of like mailbox and you'd say, like, I think, oh God, I can work on my investigations today.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_00: And then I'd go, fuck, and go there and have like three assignments at Andrew's, right?
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: Because you, as a new agent, especially, but they put us into check forgery, which is really just a training area because it's it's hard to resolve, it's hard to prosecute, but it's great for training.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: So you'd you'd have the stack, and like our supervisor would say, Listen, just do your best to do like a status on it, like you made a phone call or you did this, otherwise they'd pile up and whatever.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: So they want you to be able to manage both.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: So you had to do your best to not only do your protection assignments.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_00: Again, you're a WFO every day.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like there might be, oh, the president's going to mass with his family, or, you know, like these last always, you know, you know how it is, the president, vice president, they always do last-minute stuff.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: And so, and sometimes just in DC, which is great, but you know, then you had to figure out how to manage your investigations.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: And it was, it was stressful.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_00: Now, in other, in other uh field offices, probably a lot easier because they didn't have the constant demand for protection.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: Their protection probably would have been a huge presidential or vice presidential event that they traveled for.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_00: So that was like here I am day to day doing my investigations, but now I'm traveling to do protection.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_00: So probably easier to keep up on their investigations.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_01: That's interesting.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_01: I always figured that there was a little bit like because you and I talked before we actually started recording about the FBI and the behavioral analysis unit and the steps necessary to even give you a a chance of getting onto the behavioral analysis analysis unit.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_01: I figured the Secret Service was probably similar.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_01: They'd have a pipeline, you kind of have to go through, you cut your teeth over here, then eventually you can get over there.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_01: But I imagine also anyone that's really driven and wants to go into the protective elements that if they want to, like it's a fast track, or at least it's a uh they're not having to spend years doing investigative work for the financial crimes division before they can get there.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_00: So if you want to be in PPD, Presidential Protection Division, or V PPD, Vice President Vice Presidential Protection Division, you know, as you're moving up, you apply like any other federal agency, you're applying for positions that move you up in rank and, you know, obviously salary.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: And so, yeah, it does get super competitive and you do have to cut your teeth on super thing um certain things.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_00: But honestly, I think in a lot of uh any law enforcement, any anything in the world, it's kind of sometimes who you know, who's polling for you.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, and uh it's interesting because I remember talking to this guy, John, and he was applying to be on a pr protection gig.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it came time in his career that he needed to be on a protection gig.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_00: And he goes, Fuck that.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to be on PPD.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: He goes, that's way too much pressure, too much travel, whatever.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_00: But other people would be like, that's the only thing they wanted, which was a little bit ego driven.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I gotta be honest, I didn't make it that many years, but I I that probably would have been me to say like I did PPD.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_00: I would I admit that right here, that I think ego-driven wise.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: I I I understood what he was saying and he was right.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: But I mean, who doesn't, I mean, for me, who doesn't want to do PPD?
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: Because the experience, the intensity would have been amazing.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: It's funny because I I get that, but for me, the thing that would have appealed to me the most would have been the training necessary to then be able to do the job.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: I would have loved whatever they'd have thrown at me.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like, we're gonna teach you this, we're gonna teach you this.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: And they would have they do a throw a ton at you to be on PPD and VPPD, obviously.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: You're protecting the most threat from a person in the world.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: So especially these days.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, that's fine.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: I would have loved that.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: So what is one of the most dangerous myths you think ordinary people believe about violent offenders?
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: Ooh, what is the dang what is a myth?
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: Well, gosh, because there's so many categories of dangerous offenders, right?
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think everybody thinks okay, a lot of people think that dangerous offenders are psychopaths and they aren't necessarily psychopaths.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: Listen, 70%, I remember this from my uh profiling class in my master's program.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: 70% of murder is situational.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: That's a that's a huge percentage.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_00: Meaning you're in a bar, you get pissed off, somebody like hits on your girlfriend, and you you kill them, or now you see all these road rage uh incidents.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_00: Nobody planned that.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I remember this story of a guy this our teeth our professor taught us um when he was talking about situational.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: It was this old guy, like a grandpa.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: I don't he goes, nobody knows what happened.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: Something triggered he just shot his wife with a shotgun.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_00: And he ended up in prison the rest of his life, but like he was everybody's buddy because he was like this grandpa.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: So like beyond situational, like that's effed up, or you know, I mean, there's so many situationalals, you know, in the heat of the moment, so to speak.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_01: I think one of the things I might add to that is I think having taught personal safety for as long as I have, there was always a sense of misconception that bad guys look a certain way, that they're going to present a certain way.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I I would like there might be there, and we'll get into this later, of course, with the body language, or there may be certain nonverbal signals that correlate to potential right before an attack.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_01: But for the most part, it's Mr.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_01: Smith next door, right?
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: Capable of murder.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: The guy across the street, his wife, capable of murder.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's they come in these ordinary packages.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I think people think, you know, there's some correlation with, well, if you're evil, there must be some sign.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know what that sign is.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_00: But there's a sign that they go that they are bad people.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I think some I do think sometimes people do that because they want to have like clarity and think that they're going to be able to see it because it makes them feel better to have that like definitive.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I I know what they look like.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like you have like you said, it could be the UPS driver.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_00: It could be the ice cream guy that comes around in the summer with the music up and down the neighborhood streets.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's just you.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's it's kind of I you know, it's kind of almost sad that like the bubble gets burst at a certain point if you open your eyes and understand, you know, because it could be anybody and it's like, oh shit, that kind of sucks.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, it does.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I remember a woman coming up at the end of one of my events, and uh she she she approached.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_01: She was one of the few that was not jovial and happy and all that stuff.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I did teach what I taught with as much humor as possible.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: I always believe that people, if you're gonna, you know, soak something up for a few hours, you may as well enjoy the process, right?
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_01: Well, she came up and she wasn't necessarily jovial.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_01: And there was a lot of banter going on between me and the people that had come up at the end of the event.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: But she stepped up and as she got there, she said, these people wouldn't be having half as much fun if they realized how serious the information is they've just learned.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: She said, I was in a you know, bad relationship, et cetera, and it was horrendous.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_01: And then she said, if they knew how serious this was, and uh, and I didn't know what to say to what to say to that, other than I'm glad the information was valuable and you saw that.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: But also you can't you can't crush people's spirits and frighten them into sort of submission to paying attention.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: But it was just an interesting thing.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_01: So if 70% of murders are situational, and then we're sort of the rest maybe fall into that psychopathic category, and uh, you can you sort of you explore that.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_01: Are psych are psychopaths made?
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_01: Are they born?
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_01: Or is that the wrong question?
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I would no, no, it's a great question.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I don't I don't know if I would say the rest of it is, you know, committed by psychopaths, as I think I think, like let's say for example, um my husband, let's say I am in a super abusive relationship, and I just get to that point where I'm gonna go, I'm saying to myself, you know what, when that girl is sleeping tonight, I'm gonna shoot him, stab him, whatever.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: Like that doesn't make me a psychopath.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_00: That just makes me really desperate.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I, but I did plan it, right?
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: So that's not situational.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: That is I had pre-meditation.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: But I love the question of whether psychopaths are born or made, because I do think if we had like a panel of psychologists, be that forensic psychologists or just regular, we some of us might agree, some of us might not.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: But my belief, so we have so in in as a psychologist, um, we have the Bible, you know, the diagnostic and statistical manual.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: And we do not have a diagnosis of psychol of psychopath or sociopath.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, there isn't a diagnosis.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: They use a diagnosis called antisocial personality disorder.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, it's a personality disorder.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_00: It um to me, it's psychopath-light because it's it gives you categories such that you can diagnose.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas psychopath is more nuanced and has a lot more facets that you qualify for.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_00: Listen, a massive percentage of people sitting in prison are psychopaths.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_00: So my belief is that psychopaths are born and sociopaths are made.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I will explain.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: So you have a psychopath born, psyche, psychopath, right?
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_00: The brain from birth, I think, is already different.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_00: No empathy, no remorse.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_00: That would be in the amygdala, the whole emotional center of the brain.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: Sociopath, I believe, again, socio, social society is made.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_00: So, like my best distinction is think about the difference between, say, like uh, think of like a serial killer that you um is super famous that everybody would know.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, maybe, maybe Jeffrey Dahmer.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I do think he was born bad.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, he did have some environmental contributions in the family.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: But then sociopath, okay, think of a gang member.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: A gang member goes along in life.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: They end oftentimes end up joining a gang because it's a sense of belonging.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_00: However, the research shows that a lot of them still have the ability to have empathy and remorse and have love with their family, but really very like just their family are just very close people.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_00: But then the next day they're going out and decapitating somebody, not even you know, they're kind of almost like a separated thing, but they do have these qualities that a psychopath does not.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: So that is my belief.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: And um you can again argue.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if you've learned differently or believe differently, but it's always an interesting discussion.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_01: Always.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the things uh perhaps leaning a little bit in towards that nuance for psychopaths, I've always believed, right or wrong, that psychopaths can and do exist in society and function for the most part fairly well.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_01: There's a I think sometimes there's a correlation between if this individual is a psychopath, it's only a matter of time before they kill someone and I don't think that's true.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_01: I think that psychopaths because of the lack of empathy can often end up in leadership positions, end up in positions of power because the tough decisions that might challenge the rest of us, they're easy.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's clear cut.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's kind of I liken it to Spock off Star Trek, right?
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: The emotion's not there.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_01: These are the facts, I'll make the decision and then we go with it.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas in my mind, sociopaths are the individuals that potentially they're going to have a hard time holding down a job.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_01: They're erratic.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_01: They tend to go off over you know minor things and it's somewhat a little bit more unpredictable.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think that's a fair kind of description?
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: I I think what I like to stress um not only when I'm teaching but when we're having these discussions is every even though psychopath isn't a diagnosis, let's say it is I there's a spectrum.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_00: So you can have like some qualities of a psychopath and you can have my God like poster child central casting psychopath that's like what they put in the movies or like that real life, you know, famous serial killer.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I believe that like you said, there are plenty of psychopaths that are um probably probably some surgeons.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_00: Cause you okay I'm gonna tell you a story and it's it's it might freak some people out because I'm I'm I'm kind of giving some something about me.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: I'm in my master's program, the forensic psychology and I'm taking this assessment course and the professor makes us do it ourselves.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_00: Like he found people that would test us and then do it like super cheap.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: And it was the MMPI, the Minnesota multiphasic personality inventory, the most used personality test out there.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's like 567 questions.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's insane.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_00: But it then those questions then load onto these 10 different diagnoses, these categories.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_00: One of them is called psychopathy which is you know what contributes to being a psychopath.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_00: And my profile spiked on psychopathy and I was like this and the the professor goes like this Yeah Mary Beth of course and I'm like like what do you mean?
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_00: And he goes law enforcement and military always spike on the psychopsopathy scale I'm like okay I'm relieved but why?
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: He said so this is my words but this is I'm interpreting what he said.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_00: You cannot be you cannot show up say at a crime scene and be like like all emotional and reactive and whatever law enforcement military to do your job you're compartmentalizing.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_00: Some of us have lower empathy lower remorse because and and like we pursue what we do well.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_00: So here's the thing it doesn't mean we don't feel it means that we're compartmentalizing in the moment and if we don't find ways to work through that and process it, that's why I think a lot of law enforcement drink, right?
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: They find unhealthy coping mechanisms.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_00: I always say it's okay to drink as long as it's only one of your coping mechanisms, not your only one.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: You've got to find something else.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_00: It's also why some of them cheat.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_00: They're just looking for some diversion to not think about what they've experienced and what they've seen.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: And thankfully now the research is showing that more and more the problem is a lot of it is post-traumatic stress and if you're not processing all of that right because of what you're seeing, but you're still keeping this like facade of yeah, I'm fine and you know um I remember John Douglas who's like probably one of the most famous and wrestler the two guys that started the behavioral science unit, what used to be called the behavioral science unit, one of them did a book I think it was Wrestler and He Who Fights Monsters um talked about like how brutal it was to raise a daughter because of the potent right.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not and he goes, you know, you're getting that the the photos they looked at the cases they worked like you lose all faith in society, in humanity because you realize like you said earlier is it could be anybody.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah I don't I think I kind of expounded on that one a lot.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_00: But I think there's so many facets to psychopathy and being a psychopath or a sociopath that people don't understand because again it's a spectrum and you can have them as a CEO, as a president, as a surgeon, as lots of different people that don't need those qualities to be successful.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_01: So do you think that there's a need by the general public to want to qualify violence by attributing it to some sort of mental illness rather than just saying always okay because how else could someone commit a crime if they aren't mentally ill that's what people want to believe.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: That's what they want to believe.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't think that all people that commit crimes are mentally ill at all.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_01: I don't at all no but it's it's fascinating isn't it that is it because they want a clean answer.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_01: You know there's something about that individual that is different.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: And if something is different then it's I won't say excusable but maybe just understandable.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah because listen then it's not me it's not going to be me doing that.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's not going to be my kid it's not going to be my husband it's not going to be so and so because they aren't mentally ill.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's like oh really?
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 27:36
  unknown: Yeah.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody I mean look at if you look at all of the school shootings, all of the mass shootings, I I don't necessarily think those people okay you might be given able to give them a diagnosis of psychopath, but that that's a personality disorder by the way, not a psychiatric disorder.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if you understand or your audience understands the difference.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_00: I don't give it to me it's a it is so when I used to teach at George Washington University in DC and I would spend a couple days, I think it was two or three of two two days because they were long teaching sessions uh talking about personality disorders.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_00: And so you have psychiatric disorders, you have personality disorders.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_00: So they there are 10 personality disorders and they divide them into three clusters based on their common uh criteria.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_00: And they don't call them symptoms because this is this is the fascinating distinction.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_00: So cluster B personality disorders were always the fan favorite and we would spend a lot of time why it is narcissism, antisocial, which I told you is psychopath like to me, borderline personality disorder and histrionic personality disorder.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_00: I mean it's what we all like really hear about.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: Some of the other ones people don't even know that they exist.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_00: So there was a time and I might be one of those people that still believes this is true, they separated psychiatric disorders from personality disorders because insurance did not cover a diagnosis of personality disorder because they believed them to be not treatable.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_00: You have symptoms when you have a psychiatric disorder depression, anxiety, schizophrenia, bipolar that has symptoms because those are treatable whether that's therapy whether it's medication whether it's a combination of the both blah blah blah personality disorders you have criteria because it's who the person is yes it's cool.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly and so one of and so this is one of the reasons so many people who live with people who are either psychopathic or narcissistic or borderline which are the biggies histrionic but is they don't have in in psychology we would call an observing ego in plain language it's the mirror it's a mirror.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_00: So they don't ever go oh yeah my bad they're always like you you you it is never them and they will gaslight you they will make you think you're crazy they will torture you I mean living with some of these people is very challenging because and people are people are like oh if I just tell them this they'll understand I'm like so I was working with this woman whose ex-husband definitely even though I didn't know him and in theory we aren't supposed to diagnose if we've never treated somebody but I would say from what I knew he was a narcissist.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_00: And she goes okay like he's really just like destroying his relationship with our daughter and I'm gonna write him a letter and I'm like I'm gonna call her Mary I'm like Mary we've kind of been talking about this for a year.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_00: Nothing you do is gonna change you know John.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_00: She's like okay okay you're right I know we've talked about it.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_00: So the next time we talk she's like um I got something to tell you and I'm like she goes I wrote the letter and it's so backfired on me.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_00: He's now not talking to me or our daughter he freaked out he's like fuck you you have been poisoning the well you're the one who fucked up our relationship and goes on and on and on and on.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_00: She thought oh I can I can approach him and be empathic and say listen I really want you to have a great relationship with your daughter but you just kind of like got to look in the mirror.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_00: No, that was a narcissistic injury and he just raged.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: So it's really tough because if you again spectrum right depends on where they are in the spectrum um it is it's constantly you so you're up I worked with another woman who at the time when she realized her mother was a narcissist, she was like this My God Mary Beth, I can't believe I'm 50 years old and I've thought for all of these years that it was me.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_00: So she did I loved her I still love her.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_00: She did so much work.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_00: She listened to podcasts she read books and just really started to understand what had happened and she really has like this much of a relationship with her mother anymore.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_00: Too toxic.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's too yeah exactly what I was going to say too toxic.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah right and you're wasting your life but some people just keep getting into it.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah there's a book for your audience that I think is amazing if you think you've known a narcissist have dated a narcissist are married to one maybe had a parent that was one it's called It's Not You this woman is it's Dr.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_00: Romani Deversila she's Indian she lives in LA she has great YouTube videos to understand like the difference between all these and she wrote this book It's not you and everyone I've recommended it to that has had a narcissist in their life it's been like so eye-opening and it's important to know she doesn't say you need to leave you need to leave she's like there's a whole long chapter on if you choose to stay yeah these are like the techniques you can do to save your sanity.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_00: She's awesome.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_01: That's a great book one I'll probably pick up myself essentially I listened to it amazing.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_00: It really helped me work with some of my clients.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_01: So one of the things that you know tried to teach push or or at least attune people to is that violence very rarely happens in a bubble.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_01: Now that could be a misconception and it could be a bias of mine but do you think that violence is predictable or or are we and by that I mean me and others like me trying to make chaos just feel manageable.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_00: One of the biggest rules of predicting violence or any type of behavior is past behavior is the best predictor of future behavior.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_00: So but it can be tricky because there's got to be a first right so if the person's never you know again could be situational right um so I think that's a huge one.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_00: So let's look at that like well this person has like this really long wrap sheet.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_00: Why are we surprised?
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_00: Oh he's you know he's done this, that whatever and he's such a good person.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, but his rap sheet's like three miles long.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_00: So are you really that naive to think that he was capable or she was capable of doing this.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_00: And we do I'll I'll admit we often just say he because there are certainly are more male violent offenders but um or just offenders period but um predictability is tricky because gosh, you know, I I don't know if you remember the I think it was the the movie Minority Report with Tom Cruise.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah yeah where they predict they pre-predicted yeah and are we getting better?
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_00: I do think we're getting better because when you think about AI and the way it can now bring in millions of data points and go, oh well this person has this brain thing or this person has this person or this person has this record or this whatever they can bring it closer together.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_00: But I don't think any anybody has reached even 90% predictability unless it's so obvious.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah you know um there's been several like you know oh gosh my third wife fell down the stairs and um died right it's uh that show it was a show on Netflix based on a true story I don't remember what it was called the staircase.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_01: Staircase with owl the owl owl capone.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_00: So right so I mean was it a coincidence that his second wife fell down the stairs and I mean anyway.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_00: I know I know and that psychopath is still you know living his life.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_00: So the manipulation was so deep and it was to us obvious at least the way they portrayed it right I didn't see I don't know if you saw the documentary that they showed in the movie in the movie on Netflix they showed the people that were doing the documentary on his life.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_00: I've never seen that but it is out there.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_01: Okay do you remember what I'm talking about?
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah yeah I do because I I don't we've watched so many of those now I don't know if it's the what that one specifically but the this is another thing with humanity isn't we are fascinated by that level of evil as well.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_00: I know I mean all of my students so at GW at George Washington University I started out by teaching abnormal psychology.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_00: I proposed and they allowed me to teach this course that I created called the psychology of crime and violence.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_00: It was so much fucking fun I can't even tell you because I could do what I wanted.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_00: I created it I had no textbook I had uh forensic file episodes I had articles um I started out the class with I I forget which chapter number it is from He Who Fights Monsters and it was called the Vampire Killer and they called him the Vampire Killer because every crime scene they came upon it was like bloody and it was like um blenders of blood yogurt cups of blood and whatever because this guy in his delusional state believed that he needed to drink other people's blood for him to stay alive because he had some soap something issue that he believed he had like again probably a psychotic some type of psychotic disorder.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_00: But sort of innocent he goes they asked him how did you find your clients he goes well or not your clients sorry your victims and he goes oh I would just go to the door and if it was open I figured they were inviting me in.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_00: What isn't that part of the myth with vampires?
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_00: You have to be invited in to go in and drink the blood.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_00: Oh fun no I didn't know that.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_00: I think yeah I okay but so it goes along with right and so then he would kill the anybody so I would make them I would have them read that um chapter first because why?
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_00: I mean it was so disturbing that if you couldn't handle that, please don't stay in my class because I have a massive waiting list of people to get in.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_00: So that was super fun and I forget why I'm telling you this but oh yeah because people's obsession all of my students were like oh my God, Dr.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_00: Jenky I loved those episodes you have us watch or whatever, but I had to watch with my roommate because they were so scary.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_00: Or I needed to watch it during the day because it was so scary.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_00: But all of them said like they were almost embarrassed like I'm obsessed with criminal minds.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_00: I'm obsessed with whatever show I used to have an obsession or I'd say more of an addiction.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_00: I had to watch one forensic file every day.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's like a 30 minute episode and then when they take all the commercials out it's like 20.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_00: So I'd be like maybe cooking dinner or whatever.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_00: But I I just I I I loved learning about the techniques they use.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_00: So that was and you know you we're in the industry so like what's my problem but I think it's that determination for me of broadening my understanding even more so that I I always I joke but I'm serious as I my goal in life is to not become a forensic file.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah it's a bloody good goal but you know what I'm saying?
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_00: But I mean like think about it if you don't understand more and more and more things that can like again nothing's fully predictable like we were talking about but if I can understand signs, symptoms, uh clues, whatever more and more of people that fit those categories that you'd never expect.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_00: Like there was a real estate one a real estate agent one and I was like the person you wouldn't expect, right?
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_01: So all these things that like it just opens your mind up and it makes you more cynical, I'll be honest, but hey, if I stay alive or keep somebody else up alive, I'll keep it it is interesting because I did read and I don't I don't remember what the statistics are, but there was a correlation um between uh how many females tend to watch true crime versus how many males tend to watch it it's much higher that women will watch true crime than men.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_01: Men tend to watch it when their wives are watching it.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_01: So you know they're going to isn't something they would necessarily choose.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_01: I do because I do I look at it through the same lens I think you do which is the more I know, the more I understand right, then perhaps the potential for prediction is higher or recognition.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_01: And so there was I I read the article I don't remember who did it and I don't remember the stats now and it's going to drive me crazy.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_01: But it was definitely more women watched and the the sort of finality summary of this article said one of the reasons why the audience is so much more predominantly female than male is because women are more likely to be uh victims of violent crime they will watch through the lens of if I can spot this I can avoid it in much the same way you just did if I if I can keep me alive or my patients in your case, then you have you know you've done yourself and those people a service.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely absolutely and and listen it makes for great discussion.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_01: Doesn't it?
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_00: I know because you know how did the staircase right his wife dies on the stairs there was an owl involved yeah really that was one of the theories that was one of the theories and because of the types of cut on the weird to this day they don't know because that the one the first wife that they exhumed had the same cuts on her on her scalp.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_00: So see you fascinating yes the same motherfucker still walk on the streets.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_00: I thought he was in prison is he okay so okay maybe because remember there was all these appeals and then he was out and then he was in and then the appeal it was like this many years later I wish I maybe you're right.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe his sitting in prison.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_01: No I don't know now I want to know because I've lost track of it over the years because it's been a while.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah but it was a fascinating case.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_01: Very so when professionals assess dangerousness what are they actually looking for?
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah um again pre uh past behavior right um has the person committed any crimes was he accused he or she sorry again uh of any crimes what are the what are the circumstances again let's look at so when I when I taught again at at George Washington University, one of several of my students, we got into this discussion about God, you know what Dr.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_00: Chinky I got to say and it was like well into half of the course once they realized this what you've taught me is that they're just humans.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_00: Like I always thought they were monsters and so kind of like what you said you realize it could be anybody which is both a relief and scary as hell.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_00: Okay so what they're looking for is is there a mental health record what what's the family of origin like right again sometimes you can't find out all that stuff meaning was there abuse was there sexual abuse um jobs were they able to keep a job you know that's a big thing in FBI profiling.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's like oh it's this you know 40 year old white male uh lived at home on and off couldn't keep a job like all of those sort of patterns that you put together that can again there's not one thing I wish there were, but there are so many elements and I do believe that they're getting better and better.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_00: I mean I think the FBI started it but again with AI and now they could you could just stick it into Claude or ChatGPT or whichever Gemini whatever you use and say what are all the elements of a potential serial killer or a potential bank robber or a potential whatever and they would come up with an amazing profile that would make you think oh God I never thought about that and think I mean I'm just saying I know a lot of people are scared of AI but I think if we focus on at least for now all the positives it's doing for something like that.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_00: And it again could keep you alive, could help you arrest somebody before they commit another murder, another crime, another whatever is amazing.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't think I would say maybe the behavioral analysis unit, because that's what it's called now, um, it went from behavioral sciences unit to behavioral analysis unit.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know why, but um I think they're definitely the forerunners I think I hope they're using AI to help them even get better or anybody, any police department is using that to get better at catching people.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_00: Because like just with medical AI is just helping us stay alive longer.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_00: And so hopefully with that they can keep those people off the street and then keep the communities safer.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_01: I want to just add a little bit of weight to what you said about previous patterns or like behavioral patterns that have gotten the person to a certain point.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_01: There's often a belief with people especially especially when they embark on a relationship with someone whose past behavior has been bad, they think I'll change them male or female doesn't matter I'll change that person for the better.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_00: Why do you think that is I okay have you ever heard the term even Hitler had a dog?
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_00: Okay so what does that mean?
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_00: That means not everybody even Hitler wasn't all bad.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_00: I mean he had a wife maybe maybe she was a fucking psychopath too Ava Braun I don't know but you have some people again some people are just despicable and they aren't likable.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_00: Okay but okay go to do you know who John Wynne Gacy is?
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah okay for your audience um and interesting because he lived about a mile from where I grew up in Chicago.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_00: So um I used to bring everybody that visited by his house once I know I'm morbid.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_00: But he killed I don't know 30 young boys.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_00: He had a construction company and he found boys to work the construction company oftentimes he would recruit them from bus stops like again Like ones that have run away, homeless, et cetera.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_00: Smart man, right?
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_00: So they're typically highly intelligent.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_03: Manipulative.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_00: Very manipulative.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_00: But let me tell you something.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_00: His nickname was Killer Clown, because this same man who was burying, killing these young boys after sexually assaulting them, burying them both in the floorboards and in his walls, okay, he was called the killer clown because he spent a lot of his time dressing up as a clown, going to hospitals to entertain kids.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_00: I think they might have been in a cancer unit or whatever.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_00: And so the cops knew him.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_00: So like when they came to his house, because the neighbors were reporting a smell, he's like, he's like, it's, you know, my bad, it's something, blah, blah, blah.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_00: And they believed him because he was so known in the community as being this good guy.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_00: So that's what I mean is like even Hitler had a dog.
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_00: Not everybody's all bad.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_00: So go back to your question about why do you think somebody would be with somebody they think they can change because they see that good side and they think, oh, if I just if they if I just love them, if they just understand that like there's love and that that relationship or all those relationships in the past, if they weren't me and I can change this person.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_00: That's kind of like I think maybe a simplified version.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_00: There's probably a lot of versions of that.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_00: But, you know, I mean, my husband's like, oh, women always, you know, want to change men.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_00: I go, men want to change women too.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_00: Like, don't stick that on us.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, it's true, but it's but it's both ways.
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_00: Guys think they can change women too.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_00: I we might be worse because we are like more caregiving, more, you know, whatever, more nurturing.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_00: But it's all to say, I think it is two-way.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_00: And here's the truth, Terry.
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes that is true.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_00: The person does just need a, you know, a click, somebody that understands them.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_00: They've never felt love.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_00: They've never felt like they belong.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_00: They never felt that they were good enough for anybody.
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_00: And they found this person, man or woman, depending, um, that just hits like they get to their heart.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_00: So, I mean, it's possible, but I do think sometimes like they're just deluding themselves and they typically end up either miserable or divorced.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_00: Interesting.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_01: So, how often do you think people stay in danger because they're trying to be fair to someone who has past behaviors not been fair to them?
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_01: Because they think their past behavior hasn't been fair.
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_01: What do you mean by that?
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_01: So someone that is staying in a bad relationship and they stay because they feel it would be cruel to leave that individual.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_01: And be it that's not fair to them, like they haven't given them enough of a chance.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_01: Why do you think that you know do you think that that's a reasoning behind perhaps staying longer, or is it more often just a fear of what will happen if they leave?
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_00: I think it depends on like what you would classify the relationship as.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_00: Like, for example, is it a domestic violence situation?
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_00: Meaning even let's say there's not even any physical abuse.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_00: Let's just say it's all emotional and psychological, which sometimes from I worked in that field for a while after I got my um master's in forensic psychology.
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_00: So there's this term called the cycle of violence, right?
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, you build up, um, he then, I'm sorry, but it is mostly men.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_00: Now, can I caveat this?
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_00: Is I just had this discussion the other day with my stepdaughter.
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_00: Men are victims of stalking, men are victims of domestic violence.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, the statistics are far less.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_00: I also believe, and I think this is so important to say, that they underreport because I think for a lot of men, I'm not going to say all, a lot of men would be embarrassed to say that they were in a domestic violence situation, because come on, you're the stronger sex and whatever, right?
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_00: So, because domestic violence isn't just physical abuse, it's financial abuse, it's sexual abuse, it's emotional abuse.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_00: And like, I don't know many people, you're younger than me, but say after say 40 years old that haven't been around people that in public are super abusive to their spouses, that's emotional abuse or psychological abuse, right?
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_00: So um, you have to consider what is the relationship that you're assessing and why are they staying.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're in, if you've been in a domestic violence situation for a decent amount of time, um, you're probably in what's called the cycle of violence.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_00: And it's this, because I worked in this field not that long because it was too, I gotta be honest, it was too frustrating for me.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_00: I like to help people at the time, call it 2000, 2001.
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_00: The stat read it took seven years for a woman to leave an abusive husband.
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I don't know what this, yes, because again, that cycle of violence is you're building up, you're the tension, and then whatever, if it's physical, then that physical abuse happens.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_00: Then and she's pissed, and she'll come to us again at the stalking.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_00: It was called the stalking union.
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_00: We dealt a lot because stalking and domestic violence are very intertwined.
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_00: So they'd come and, like, oh, I want to arrest that motherfucker.
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_00: I want to prosecute him, whatever.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_00: And then she'd come by however much time later, a couple of days, a week, whatever.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to prosecute.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_00: We got back together.
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_00: He loves me, I'm forgiving him.
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_00: He was stressed out, right?
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_00: So you make these excuses because you're then going back to the cycle where then he apologizes, he loves her, whatever.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_00: When it's psychological, it's so much more difficult, I think, to sp to distinctly say this is abusive because he's making you feel crazy.
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's you.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_00: What do you mean?
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I I love you.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_00: Like I you it, it's in your mind, sweetheart.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I don't know what you're saying.
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_00: So it's this whole, but then if you talk to people, people are telling you you need to get out of that relationship because it's abuse or whatever.
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_00: But uh a lot of it is shame, by the way.
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_00: We don't want to admit that I'm in an abusive relationship.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's embarrassing, it's shameful.
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_00: Why then they're gonna say, why did you stay?
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_00: For for many, not all, uh abusive physically.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it takes the child, a child being hit or physically abused for the woman to finally leave.
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's like it's okay if he does it to me.
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but it's not okay if he does it to them.
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, they stay in again, cycle of violence.
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, okay, I'll tell you this story.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_00: I'm working in the stalking unit.
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_00: Again, mostly domestic violence victims come in.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_00: This woman comes in, and I think it's important to say that she's Greek because so when they come in and they were being physically abused, we had to take pictures so that we had that evidence in case it went to uh court.
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_00: And so she used humor to sort of get through it with us.
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_00: She was actually kind of like really cool.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_00: And she goes, Listen, I left my husband before and I went to my parents' house.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_00: And you know what my mom said to me when she opened the door?
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-mm.
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_00: You go back, we don't have divorce in this family.
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_00: Because guess what?
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_00: She was also an abused woman, right?
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_00: So where was this person supposed to go if her own mother and father wouldn't take her in?
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_00: So that that was cultural, right?
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think that's a reason.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_00: Like again, um uh generational.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_00: My mother was abused, my grandmother was abused.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_00: I've talked to a woman recently who the sexual abuse was generational.
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_00: It was just part of who they are.
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_00: Thankfully, she had the education and the wherewithal to go, oh no.
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_00: I stopped letting my I haven't talked to my mother for 15 years once I realized she was grooming my kids.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_00: So, right, but it took her to like real, oh my God, that's wrong.
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_00: But like she didn't know was wrong because she grew up in these generations of sexual abuse.
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_00: Whew.
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_00: Heavy.
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, heavy.
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_01: So do you think because I I've always kind of thought that I expect it does happen that somebody goes from being perfectly normal to being violent.
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_01: It can happen, no doubt.
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_01: But I also I feel that it's probably a sliding scale, boundaries are tested, there's an escalation over a period of time, perhaps they get into that circle of violence and then you know things repeat.
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_01: But during the repeating of that violent encounter, the escalation in violence tends to increase.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_01: So if somebody is experiencing the early signs of somebody of having their boundaries tested, in what form do those tests come?
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_00: Again, depends on the person being tested, meaning, let's say the person's a narcissist.
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_00: There is something, so everyone thinks, oh, um, psychopaths and narcissists are all violent.
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_00: No, they aren't.
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_00: Again, spectrum of where they are on that diagnosis or on that term.
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, there is something when you go to the more extreme side of narcissism called narcissistic rage.
• 52:17
  SPEAKER_00: So what happens is when you have narcissistic injury, like I can think of somebody I worked with who was married to a narcissist and they got divorced.
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but guess what?
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_00: You do not make the decision when you're in that relationship.
• 52:30
  SPEAKER_00: But she did.
• 52:30
  SPEAKER_00: She divorced him.
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_00: You don't say no to a narcissist.
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_00: He raged.
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_00: He dragged her into court for years just to manipulate, to get back at her, to be like, fuck you, you can't do this to me.
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just gonna keep torturing you because you said no to me.
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_00: You ended our relationship.
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_00: You don't do that.
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_00: So he was definitely more extreme, not the most extreme, but definitely more extreme.
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so when you think about that, it really depends on not all abusers are narcissists, certainly.
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_00: So you take somebody who holds down a normal job.
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, okay.
• 53:03
  SPEAKER_00: I I used to do these talks on um violence against women.
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_00: I would talk about uh domestic violence stalking and rape.
• 53:11
  SPEAKER_00: And this woman said, she came up to me after and she said, Um, do you have any books I can read?
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_00: She didn't want anybody to hear.
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_00: She goes, I could never in my town go to get help because my husband, who's abusive to me, is a very well-respected doctor in town and nobody's gonna believe me, right?
• 53:30
  SPEAKER_00: So that's sometimes like, and people think, oh, it just happens in lower, lower socioeconomic status homes.
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_00: Bullshit.
• 53:37
  SPEAKER_00: There is no, I used to, when I was teaching this, I'd be like, okay, what's the profile?
• 53:42
  SPEAKER_00: That was my question to my students.
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_00: What's the profile of a typical um domestic violence um abuser?
• 53:49
  SPEAKER_00: And they'd come up with all the stuff, and then I'd click to the slide and it was blank.
• 53:54
  SPEAKER_00: Because there is no profile.
• 53:55
  SPEAKER_00: They come from every socioeconomic status, every color, every race, every whatever.
• 54:00
  SPEAKER_00: And so, yes, it is happening at the highest levels, it is happening at the lowest levels of SES in our society.
• 54:07
  SPEAKER_00: So it's really hard to say.
• 54:09
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what, how do you know if that person's gonna be an abuser or somebody that commits violence?
• 54:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's everybody.
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_00: There's no profile.
• 54:17
  SPEAKER_00: Sure, there's probably more, like if you pick all the different categories of crime, there'd probably be a little bit more of a specific profile because the more violent you get, there's got to be some elements, right?
• 54:28
  SPEAKER_00: But remember, 70% of some of that of murder, you know, so you can't say is situational.
• 54:34
  SPEAKER_00: So, like I knew this guy who who I didn't know him.
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_00: I knew the guy who knew him, and they freaked out when they found out that this guy they've been reading about doing all these bank robberies was their buddy, and he got super desperate to feed his family and he just needed money.
• 54:47
  SPEAKER_00: This is a college-educated, like working professional who got desperate.
• 54:51
  SPEAKER_00: I know that's not violent, but he did use a weapon, but it's all to say, right, that like what drove him?
• 54:57
  SPEAKER_00: He's he doesn't have mental illness, he had desperation, life.
• 55:00
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 55:01
  SPEAKER_00: Life and yes.
• 55:02
  SPEAKER_00: And so when you think about it again, one of your questions earlier, like, how do you predict violence?
• 55:06
  SPEAKER_00: I, you know, one of those reasons they do when you're working with the government or the military and you have to have a clearance.
• 55:13
  SPEAKER_00: This is why they do redo clearances depending on what level, what job, typically like every five years, because your financial status could change.
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, listen, all of a sudden they got a$500,000 deposit in their bank account.
• 55:27
  SPEAKER_00: Where did that come from?
• 55:28
  SPEAKER_00: Or there's several deposits in their bank account.
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_00: What so were they being paid off for intel?
• 55:33
  SPEAKER_00: Are they spies?
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_00: Like what happened?
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_00: So they do these things for a reason, like what's changed.
• 55:38
  SPEAKER_01: So one of the things you touched on a minute ago was stalking.
• 55:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I'd like to explore that a little more.
• 55:42
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think there are misconceptions behind stalking?
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_01: This is obviously a misconception from anyone that uh hasn't been stalked.
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_01: But if there are misconceptions, what do you think those are?
• 55:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think I think they also think that stalkers only are one profile, you know.
• 55:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um sometimes, yes, like you, it's that manipulative, um, very jealous boyfriend who clearly, like again, they are so good at like that gradual, like they love bomb them and they bring you in and and then like he loves me and he look what he did.
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_00: And then then once he gets you, and again, I'm using man here as the perpetrator, um, he then starts isolating you.
• 56:23
  SPEAKER_00: And then you have less and less friends.
• 56:25
  SPEAKER_00: And because it's uh why aren't you home already?
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_00: You said you were coming home after work.
• 56:29
  SPEAKER_00: Are you fucking Johnny at work?
• 56:30
  SPEAKER_00: Is that why you're still there?
• 56:32
  SPEAKER_00: And then she'll do whatever because no, no, no, honey, I love you.
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_00: Like, no, no, I don't even I can't even talk to Johnny anymore because he used to be my best friend at work, but I can't even do that because he's gonna think that there's an affair.
• 56:42
  SPEAKER_00: So it becomes more and more manipulative, becomes more and more isolated.
• 56:46
  SPEAKER_00: So that would be that situation.
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um sorry, uh what question was I answering answering?
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_00: The misconceptions, potentially.
• 56:58
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 56:58
  SPEAKER_00: But then you have um, I remember it was a New York City judge.
• 57:02
  SPEAKER_00: This was many years ago.
• 57:04
  SPEAKER_00: I think I learned about this in my program, you know, and call it 1999.
• 57:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um a judge who once like the whole thing was over, whatever, he goes, I don't know what happened to me.
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_00: That is not me, but he started stalking this woman who broke up with him.
• 57:19
  SPEAKER_00: And this is like a respected member of society that in a million years would you ever think would be stalking a woman.
• 57:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, you know, and sometimes really great-looking guys, you're like, you can get anybody.
• 57:28
  SPEAKER_00: Why are you stalking that woman?
• 57:30
  SPEAKER_00: Or and there are women that stalk.
• 57:32
  SPEAKER_00: There definitely are women that stalk.
• 57:34
  SPEAKER_00: I think probably a lot more so than we want to say.
• 57:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I don't know if you've ever known like any female friends or whatever, because I have, who, you know, they, and that's more when I was younger.
• 57:45
  SPEAKER_00: And they would be like, Oh, I'm gonna go drive by his house and see if she's there or whatever.
• 57:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I was telling my husband the story recently, and he's like, Really?
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_00: When I was working in the stalking unit, this guy comes in, big built guy, okay?
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_00: And he's like, Oh, he's being stuck.
• 58:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, Oh, please, like, right?
• 58:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yours truly ended up apologizing, you know.
• 58:06
  SPEAKER_00: And it took a lot for him to come to the unit to say he's being stuck again because of his physical appearance.
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_00: And he goes, his ex-girlfriend was, he was dating somebody new.
• 58:15
  SPEAKER_00: His ex-girlfriend was stalking them, and the the straw that broke the camel's back for him, not only the fear of his current girlfriend, but the ex-girlfriend had just approached them.
• 58:24
  SPEAKER_00: This was a Monday on a Friday, or it was Friday or Saturday, it was over the weekend, and tried to hit them with a baseball bet as they were entering his house.
• 58:32
  SPEAKER_00: She was hiding, right?
• 58:33
  SPEAKER_00: So it was like that was the straw, but a lot of other things had happened.
• 58:36
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, again, like there's a the female stalker that just was so enraged, like, you can't be with him, like he's my boyfriend.
• 58:43
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like she might be somebody that everybody thinks is the bomb, but she just disconnect.
• 58:48
  SPEAKER_00: So I think really, once again, not to say it can be anybody, but kind of can.
• 58:53
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like there were two things there the misconception that it can't, it wouldn't be you.
• 58:57
  SPEAKER_01: And in this case, a big guy getting stalked and then totally dodging the bat.
• 59:01
  SPEAKER_01: But also for the individual doing the stalking, there's a I feel like there must be some rationalization inside that individual's head that they're not, it's not a it's not stalking that they're doing, it's checking up.
• 59:15
  SPEAKER_01: It's not that they're harassing that individual, they're showing them their true love or the depth of their love.
• 59:20
  SPEAKER_01: Like there are all these other ways to justify their behavior.
• 59:26
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if I'm looking for a rational reason why you exist.
• 59:29
  SPEAKER_00: So I know there's a few factors, and again, I can't say that I know them all, but some of them are she wants to be with me, she just doesn't know it.
• 59:38
  SPEAKER_00: And if I'm more charming, or if I show her more attention, or if I buy her more gifts, which they often do, they send gifts, but and gifts, G-I-F-T-S, not gifts, you know, whatever.
• 59:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then what can happen, and this can be this up and down thing of then they get pissed off sometimes, sometimes.
• 59:58
  SPEAKER_00: And then it can be, oh, I hate to say this because this can freak people up, but then they'll do things like killing one of your animals and leaving them on the doorstep.
• 1:00:05
  SPEAKER_00: Again, I know all of these things.
• 1:00:07
  SPEAKER_00: They'll write letters to your workplace that they hope besmirch you and like maybe get you fired.
• 1:00:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because guess what?
• 1:00:14
  SPEAKER_00: What happens when typically when you're a victim is there's a lot of shame and embarrassment.
• 1:00:18
  SPEAKER_00: So they don't want to tell anybody.
• 1:00:20
  SPEAKER_00: Where when I've counseled women, mostly women, on this, is you do need to let your co-workers and your bosses know because like you need to let them know what vehicle he's driving.
• 1:00:30
  SPEAKER_00: You need him to let let him know what he looks like so that they can be on the lookout so that they can help you stop it.
• 1:00:36
  SPEAKER_00: The thing is, is what typically a stalking victim will do is they think, because they're so embarrassed, that they can just be nice to them.
• 1:00:43
  SPEAKER_00: They'll get them to stop, blah, blah, blah.
• 1:00:46
  SPEAKER_00: But the problem is the way a stalker can read that and often does is it's attention.
• 1:00:50
  SPEAKER_00: She's staying in here, she really does want to be with me.
• 1:00:53
  SPEAKER_00: I just have to win her over.
• 1:00:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:00:55
  SPEAKER_00: So what you really need to enforce and reinforce and reinforce again with a victim is stop the communication because you're giving him the wrong idea.
• 1:01:05
  SPEAKER_00: You're letting him think that they have a chance.
• 1:01:07
  SPEAKER_00: Because even negative attention is attention.
• 1:01:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, even so there's bad attention.
• 1:01:12
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 1:01:13
  SPEAKER_00: So um, yeah.
• 1:01:15
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, again, could be anybody, both victim and perpetrator.
• 1:01:19
  SPEAKER_01: So d in a case like that, do you think a restraining order is gonna do the job most people think it'll do?
• 1:01:25
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:01:26
  SPEAKER_00: Juicy topic because Yeah.
• 1:01:29
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 1:01:29
  SPEAKER_00: So restraining orders can be miraculous.
• 1:01:36
  SPEAKER_00: I think oftentimes I don't ever want to be always, you know, oftentimes for the victim and makes them feel safe.
• 1:01:44
  SPEAKER_00: Unfortunately, it can incite a perpetrator into violence.
• 1:01:49
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, like really?
• 1:01:50
  SPEAKER_00: You've you've reported me to the law?
• 1:01:53
  SPEAKER_00: There is a it's ages ago.
• 1:01:54
  SPEAKER_00: I don't even remember the name of the movie, but it was based on a true story that they that happened.
• 1:01:59
  SPEAKER_00: It was Brooke Shields was the victim, and she got a restraining order on the day that she was going to get it.
• 1:02:04
  SPEAKER_00: So it was temporary at first, and then there is a time in most cases, depending on the state, everyone has their own laws as to how you know what the criteria are to get a permanent restraining order.
• 1:02:13
  SPEAKER_00: On the day before she was supposed to court, go to court to get that and make it a permanent restraining order.
• 1:02:19
  SPEAKER_00: Her perpetrator filled like a um like a milk truck, like a UPS looking truck, was all white, filled with weapons.
• 1:02:27
  SPEAKER_00: And he walks into the workplace.
• 1:02:29
  SPEAKER_00: She she was she did not get shot, but that's who he was looking for.
• 1:02:33
  SPEAKER_00: He shot a whole, he killed a lot of people to try to get to her.
• 1:02:37
  SPEAKER_00: But like that incited him into violence.
• 1:02:39
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it's super tricky.
• 1:02:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I was doing a talk uh once um in San Diego at a like it was a monthly meeting for the Association of Threat Professionals.
• 1:02:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, like, you have to be really careful.
• 1:02:51
  SPEAKER_00: And this guy raises his hand, and at the time I didn't know who he was or what he did.
• 1:02:55
  SPEAKER_00: And he goes, Well, in my company, we always have them get a restraining order.
• 1:03:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like, like no fail, get it.
• 1:03:02
  SPEAKER_00: I go, well, that's your choice.
• 1:03:04
  SPEAKER_00: But like for me, I just think you have to be cautious and realize that could actually incite.
• 1:03:08
  SPEAKER_00: So he's sort of arguing with me in front of this audience, and they just kind of like let it go, went on.
• 1:03:12
  SPEAKER_00: After so this guy stood up for me, this other guy stood up for me, meaning he was like, Well, yeah, I see what you're saying, Mary Beth, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah.
• 1:03:20
  SPEAKER_00: I found out later that guy, knowing I was former Secret Service, was also former Secret Service, sort of attacking me in front of everybody.
• 1:03:27
  SPEAKER_00: And the other guy worked with him.
• 1:03:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought, oh my God, he risked his job to say, like, I see what you're saying.
• 1:03:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's a good point of view to consider.
• 1:03:33
  SPEAKER_00: Doesn't mean things are going to change, but to consider, you know, whatever.
• 1:03:36
  SPEAKER_00: But it was like sort of interesting that I do think they can be really, really amazing and helpful because then you have the police that you can call like that that can be arrested.
• 1:03:45
  SPEAKER_00: But there are a lot.
• 1:03:47
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, again, go to ChatGPT these days and ask for cases where they incited the perpetrator to be violent.
• 1:03:53
  SPEAKER_00: And it's it's sickening and sad and it sucks because um, you know, stalking is real, violence in stalking is real.
• 1:04:01
  SPEAKER_00: And um, the really frustrating part for the victims and tons and tons and tons of victims.
• 1:04:08
  SPEAKER_00: I've seen podcasts, TV shows, um, interviews.
• 1:04:11
  SPEAKER_00: I've talked to a lot of victims.
• 1:04:13
  SPEAKER_00: The frustrating part is they can only step in when something happens.
• 1:04:17
  SPEAKER_00: You can't really arrest somebody on, oh, you um, I think they were the ones who have been calling me.
• 1:04:24
  SPEAKER_00: I think they're the ones who who killed my cat and left it on my front doorstep.
• 1:04:27
  SPEAKER_00: Unless you have proof, there's only so much the police they can can do.
• 1:04:31
  SPEAKER_00: Number one, number two, and I've heard this a lot, and I think it depends on the police department, is a lot of times they aren't the victims aren't taken seriously.
• 1:04:38
  SPEAKER_00: And that sucks.
• 1:04:39
  SPEAKER_00: Thankfully, in all 50 states, I, you know, I don't know other countries, it's now illegal.
• 1:04:44
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it started out as they would they would prosecute under like harassment.
• 1:04:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but now in all 50 states, California was the first to have stalking law, and they they still to this day have an amazing stalking unit.
• 1:04:57
  SPEAKER_00: They're amazing.
• 1:04:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, they're super well known, so they're consulted throughout the world.
• 1:05:02
  SPEAKER_00: But um, it's just uh getting the police also to take it seriously is a big challenge for victims.
• 1:05:08
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, women have changed their identities, they've moved, they've done extreme stuff, and the guy sometimes still finds I mean I can't even imagine the post-traumatic stress and the hypervigilance because you are constantly looking over your shoulder, sometimes forever.
• 1:05:23
  SPEAKER_00: You know?
• 1:05:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 1:05:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I had a client I was teaching self-defense too.
• 1:05:27
  SPEAKER_01: And in most cases, when I was teaching Morton Boxing, people would come in and say, You want to get fit, they want to do it for the so there was occasionally someone they want to do for self-defense, they want to learn something that seemed like a practical, reality-based way of fighting back.
• 1:05:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I was approached by this woman, maybe early twenties, and she said that uh I I need to learn how to take a guy down.
• 1:05:48
  SPEAKER_01: And she actually said, I need to know how to kill a guy if I had to with my hands, which was way out of left field at the time, somewhat surprising.
• 1:05:57
  SPEAKER_01: And there was an intensity to the question.
• 1:06:00
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:06:00
  SPEAKER_01: This wasn't a a superficial laugh it off moment, like I want to know how to kick a guy's ass, you know, that kind of frivolous nature.
• 1:06:06
  SPEAKER_01: It was very much if I had to, how do I do it?
• 1:06:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I didn't ask too many questions.
• 1:06:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's it felt like the question has been asked.
• 1:06:14
  SPEAKER_01: That was her first step for her as far as being brave enough to s to sort of verbalize that.
• 1:06:19
  SPEAKER_01: I trained her for several months.
• 1:06:20
  SPEAKER_01: Over the course of several months, she began to trust.
• 1:06:23
  SPEAKER_01: We got to a point where she said, I'm gonna tell you why I asked that question in the very beginning.
• 1:06:27
  SPEAKER_01: And she told me about being stalked.
• 1:06:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I immediately couldn't help it, assumed in my mind it was a f it was a former relationship that had gone sour.
• 1:06:36
  SPEAKER_01: He's he's following her, he's stalking, he's doing all this thing.
• 1:06:39
  SPEAKER_01: No, this was a guy who worked in the office building she worked in on the floor below hers.
• 1:06:43
  SPEAKER_01: And during an elevator ride, she had tracked like tracked it back to where she had actually interacted with him.
• 1:06:49
  SPEAKER_01: She said, Good morning.
• 1:06:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, to him, that meant she was interested.
• 1:06:52
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:06:53
  SPEAKER_01: For the next nine months, he would just show up.
• 1:06:56
  SPEAKER_01: There you go to a restaurant with a family.
• 1:06:58
  SPEAKER_01: He's sitting at a table four across.
• 1:07:00
  SPEAKER_01: Now, at first, it's like, look, it's Bob from accounting.
• 1:07:04
  SPEAKER_01: He's over there.
• 1:07:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like, didn't mean anything.
• 1:07:07
  SPEAKER_01: Over a period of time, I can't believe this, right?
• 1:07:09
  SPEAKER_01: Over a period of time, more and more things started to happen.
• 1:07:13
  SPEAKER_01: And ultimately, she started coming home to her apartment and finding things moved.
• 1:07:18
  SPEAKER_01: So she came into her apartment and the cups that were next to the sink or in the sink were now the opposite, right?
• 1:07:25
  SPEAKER_01: And it could be something really stupid, like her coffee cup, which she'd left with a bit of coffee in it, would be clean and on the draining board.
• 1:07:35
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:07:35
  SPEAKER_01: It just reached that point here.
• 1:07:37
  SPEAKER_01: Here is what the final thing for her was, because this happened over a period of months.
• 1:07:43
  SPEAKER_01: There was enough of a gap between each experience and each horrific moment for her to be able to explain it away or talk it up to maybe she's just losing her mind, right?
• 1:07:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 1:07:52
  SPEAKER_01: She um she had a phone call from some friends.
• 1:07:54
  SPEAKER_01: They were all going to go out that evening, and she was doing what you know a lot of women do.
• 1:07:58
  SPEAKER_01: She would pick out her clothes for before the evening and she laid it out on the bed and she had her outfit, and then she goes and gets in the shower.
• 1:08:04
  SPEAKER_01: And she's in the shower, she washes herself, she's doing her thing, she gets rinsed, she opens the shower door, and her clothes are laid out in front of the shower door.
• 1:08:13
  SPEAKER_01: Shut up.
• 1:08:15
  SPEAKER_01: She said it went from I this has all been in my mind to holy shit, someone's been in my house.
• 1:08:23
  SPEAKER_01: And at this point, she she didn't really know if it was Bob, right?
• 1:08:26
  SPEAKER_01: And accounting.
• 1:08:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't know if that's his name, by the way, it's just me making shout out.
• 1:08:30
  SPEAKER_01: But she knew she didn't really know if it was him.
• 1:08:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:08:34
  SPEAKER_01: She by the time she had uh found me and styles learned the fighting, she had she'd reached the point where she'd moved, I think it was three or four times.
• 1:08:41
  SPEAKER_01: And she said, if I ever don't show up, don't try and find me.
• 1:08:44
  SPEAKER_01: It's because my brother has re helped me relocate because I think he's caught up with me again.
• 1:08:48
  SPEAKER_01: It had been going on for years.
• 1:08:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:08:51
  SPEAKER_00: I can't even imagine how tormented she has.
• 1:08:54
  SPEAKER_00: She was, is do you ever get through that?
• 1:08:57
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I don't know.
• 1:08:59
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 1:09:00
  SPEAKER_00: Do you know then did it ever end?
• 1:09:03
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 1:09:04
  SPEAKER_01: I I showed up for one of our sessions and she didn't.
• 1:09:07
  SPEAKER_01: And for the next three sessions, she didn't show up.
• 1:09:09
  SPEAKER_01: But then her brother did, who I had actually kind of gotten close with during this process, and he said, We've relocated her, we think he found her again, and we're off again.
• 1:09:18
  SPEAKER_01: But one of the things he he talked to me about at length was the reception from one police department to another.
• 1:09:25
  SPEAKER_01: It could be night and day.
• 1:09:26
  SPEAKER_01: One department is we got your back if this guy shows up, you know.
• 1:09:30
  SPEAKER_01: And then another one was really like you found a chair out of place in your apartment, you know, like there was Yeah.
• 1:09:36
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 1:09:37
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 1:09:37
  SPEAKER_01: It hit me so hard.
• 1:09:40
  SPEAKER_01: I was so angry over this, right?
• 1:09:42
  SPEAKER_01: I just want to get hold of this guy.
• 1:09:44
  SPEAKER_01: And so did a brother.
• 1:09:45
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, right?
• 1:09:47
  SPEAKER_01: You just I bet the fantasy, yeah.
• 1:09:51
  SPEAKER_00: I just like lock him in a room with the brother, right?
• 1:09:54
  SPEAKER_00: And just leave him alone.
• 1:09:55
  SPEAKER_00: And that whole manipulation of like, I got into your house and I put, you know, I whatever.
• 1:10:00
  SPEAKER_00: So when we were talking about restraining orders, this woman, this case that I knew, uh, she did get a restraining order finally.
• 1:10:07
  SPEAKER_00: And the guy um the day before he killed her, um, put a Starbucks cup in her cup holder with her name on it, letting her know, oh, you're gonna put a restraining order on me, I'll still get to you.
• 1:10:18
  SPEAKER_00: Right in your car, right in your garage, the favorite drink that you want that you love.
• 1:10:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think that's a good thing.
• 1:10:25
  SPEAKER_00: That's I just think this is like it is this is I loved the stalking field because I know that stalking victims want help, but they were so stalking and domestic violence are so intertwined.
• 1:10:35
  SPEAKER_00: And why is that?
• 1:10:35
  SPEAKER_00: Because oftentimes when a woman or a man leaves the relationship, then the person stalks them because they want them back.
• 1:10:42
  SPEAKER_00: And so the problem for me was, and I know people will judge me on this, but that's okay.
• 1:10:46
  SPEAKER_00: I just want to be transparent.
• 1:10:48
  SPEAKER_00: I I did not do well with when especially when I heard the statistic that it took a woman seven years to leave her husband.
• 1:10:55
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, oh no, no, I don't have the patience.
• 1:10:57
  SPEAKER_00: I am a problem solver.
• 1:10:58
  SPEAKER_00: I need to help.
• 1:10:59
  SPEAKER_00: So stalking, great, but it's so intertwined with domestic violence that I just didn't have, I don't know, the personality for it.
• 1:11:06
  SPEAKER_00: I need to help people like that want help, but not that don't necessarily want help.
• 1:11:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but you are also a uh fire plug, right?
• 1:11:15
  SPEAKER_01: You you would not take that shit from anyone.
• 1:11:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so there's also a part of you, I'm sure, that is just like, man, if that shit was happening to me, like you know, it would be you're a doer, right?
• 1:11:27
  SPEAKER_01: You you you went through the secret service, you did the protective detail, you've done all of these things that have sort of empowered you with, and I'm sure it's always been there, but this sense that you fuck with me, my god, it's coming, right?
• 1:11:39
  SPEAKER_01: You've got that.
• 1:11:39
  SPEAKER_02: Fuck around to find out, yeah.
• 1:11:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:11:41
  SPEAKER_01: And it's so hard sometimes, and you know, I've dealt with this myself, to see people that are having to try and navigate this and the way they're navigating it, and a part of me, the you know, the former soldier, is here's how I would deal with this shit, right?
• 1:11:57
  SPEAKER_01: And you just want that clear cut, linear line to this is the problem, here's the fucking solution.
• 1:12:04
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, and then you and but you can't say it.
• 1:12:06
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you can, but it has to be in hushed tones, right?
• 1:12:09
  SPEAKER_01: You you it's difficult to do and have the the patience when you think someone's gonna have to someone's gonna be dealing with this the way that they're dealing with it, yeah, for for that length of time, for seven years.
• 1:12:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:12:21
  SPEAKER_00: And oftentimes at FYI, when a stalker stops, it's because they've found somebody else to put their attention, like a new girlfriend or somebody else like the Bob in accounting, somebody else that smiled at them or said hello.
• 1:12:34
  SPEAKER_00: And you think as the victim, thank God, but poor her, but thank God it's not me anymore.
• 1:12:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:12:39
  SPEAKER_00: You know?
• 1:12:40
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, think about that.
• 1:12:41
  SPEAKER_00: We've relocated her again.
• 1:12:43
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that is just my God, the the torture.
• 1:12:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, it is.
• 1:12:48
  SPEAKER_01: It absolutely is torture.
• 1:12:50
  SPEAKER_01: And it and it's frustrating.
• 1:12:52
  SPEAKER_01: It must be like shouting into the wind when you're trying to convince other people, the people that should or or could protect you or help protect you aren't really listening or aren't taking it seriously.
• 1:13:01
  SPEAKER_01: One of the things I would I would make sure to share with an audience is if you you end up in a situation where you have you've had to go to get the restraining order, or you've wanted to and you need to, understand that that piece of paper could be worth the paper it's written on and nothing more, but at least you've gone through the process and you must understand that that could be the catalyst for the humiliation that triggers an attack or an escalation to the degree that he might want to kill you.
• 1:13:26
  SPEAKER_01: And it is usually unfortunately a he.
• 1:13:28
  SPEAKER_01: And it was funny because I in a lot of my audiences, I'd I have a lot of women that would come to the events, and then there would be guys that would come, and it could be husbands or boyfriends, and invariably, you know, a guy sitting there, you know, looking somewhat smug with himself, thinking it'll never happen to me.
• 1:13:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, one of the things I would point out is when was the last time you went to a dental office or uh get your haircut or something where the establishment, the building itself, is most likely predominantly female, and they would be like, Oh, I go all the time.
• 1:13:59
  SPEAKER_01: When was the last time you thought about the fact that your conversation with someone at the front desk could be the trigger to getting your ass killed because the boyfriend's watching from the parking lot, you never even considered it.
• 1:14:11
  SPEAKER_01: And it was always funny to watch them go, that's never even entered my mind.
• 1:14:16
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 1:14:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:14:19
  SPEAKER_00: No, but really and truly thank you.
• 1:14:20
  SPEAKER_00: Because again, you've given them such a huge eye-opener as to what again to expand their knowledge of could be me and never thought about it because I'm a big bad man.
• 1:14:30
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 1:14:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um and again, I kind of get it, but at the same time, like, wow, you you could have potentially saved lives.
• 1:14:39
  SPEAKER_01: It I know it's some I do remind myself of that sometimes, but it was also very frustrating over the course of teaching this how hard it was sometimes to get people to sit sit down and take it seriously.
• 1:14:49
  SPEAKER_01: Even though I would teach it with you know as much fun and stories and entertainment as possible.
• 1:14:54
  SPEAKER_01: The serious element was there.
• 1:14:56
  SPEAKER_01: But it was always hard.
• 1:14:57
  SPEAKER_01: People, they're like, it won't be me, it's not where I live, it's not gonna be you know somebody I know.
• 1:15:01
  SPEAKER_00: And you're like, Yeah, that's but you remember that that it can't, it's not gonna be me.
• 1:15:06
  SPEAKER_00: That's the denial of so many people that end up being victims.
• 1:15:09
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, agree.
• 1:15:10
  SPEAKER_00: Because I don't know the statistics on this, and I'm not an expert on this, but there are a lot of criminals that say there is a type of person that they victimize, the way they walk, you know, all these different things.
• 1:15:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, wow, like like they they know.
• 1:15:26
  SPEAKER_00: And again, it's not like they have the words for it.
• 1:15:28
  SPEAKER_00: They just look at the person and go, perfect victim, or oh no, no F and way.
• 1:15:32
  SPEAKER_00: That person that person will take me down.
• 1:15:35
  SPEAKER_00: So you open the eyes of more people that maybe stand a little bit more alert, a little bit more cocky, a little bit whatever that could save them from being a victim.
• 1:15:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:15:43
  SPEAKER_01: Like one thing that surprised a lot of people was arm swing as the uh potential um, I say victim, target.
• 1:15:50
  SPEAKER_01: Let's say target.
• 1:15:52
  SPEAKER_01: If your arm swing from shoulder to elbow is pronounced, if there's movement there away from them the trunk of the body, it indicates confidence.
• 1:16:01
  SPEAKER_01: So when people are saying look, you know, look up and scan, absolutely.
• 1:16:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um stride with confidence, absolutely, but add one other facet to that, which is uh an arm swing that is commensurate to the stride length indicates strength of purpose and confidence to the degree that in most cases when those individuals you just referenced were talking about who they're gonna target, that one nonverbal change is often enough in conjunction with scanning, not being damn well on your phone, and a confident stride to put you or take you off the menu or certainly lower the chance.
• 1:16:39
  SPEAKER_00: I gotta start, let's say, my own walking style.
• 1:16:43
  SPEAKER_00: I did live two years in New York.
• 1:16:45
  SPEAKER_00: I was never mugged, and I come home from class sometimes really late because class went to 10 o'clock on certain days, and I did not live in the greatest of neighborhoods, but I kind of think it was a my the confidence, the whatever.
• 1:16:58
  SPEAKER_00: Like, listen, sometimes it's faked, you know, because you're like walking to this neighborhood at 10:30 at night, and you're like, you're you're a white woman that is easy could ease and you have these, and I I I told you I speak Spanish.
• 1:17:08
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes it was in my neighborhood was very Spanish, and these guys would like taunt me, Oh, senorita, you're by yourself tonight, and blah, and I was just like, motherfucker, I just gotta make it home.
• 1:17:17
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:17:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:17:18
  SPEAKER_00: So a lot is just like this fake thing when you get home, you just have this big exhale.
• 1:17:22
  SPEAKER_00: So but I gotta think about now, I gotta have my husband assess my stride to see if I have that little And it is.
• 1:17:28
  SPEAKER_01: And but if you think about it, the okay, what happens to us physiologically when we are startled or nervous?
• 1:17:34
  SPEAKER_01: The tendency is to retract and the tendency is to collapse down and protect the trunk of the upper arms.
• 1:17:38
  SPEAKER_01: So arms that are away slightly, and it doesn't have to you don't.
• 1:17:42
  SPEAKER_01: I don't see why that would be true.
• 1:17:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you don't want to yes, because now you're saying you couldn't possibly, right?
• 1:17:47
  SPEAKER_01: You've got too much swagger.
• 1:17:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's that happy medium.
• 1:17:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm not saying that you know if you just change your arm swing, nothing will ever happen to you because there's there are so many other people.
• 1:17:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:17:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:17:58
  SPEAKER_00: Love that.
• 1:17:58
  SPEAKER_00: That's such so listen, I learn, I always learn so much when we talk.
• 1:18:02
  SPEAKER_01: One of those things that it was always funny to watch people at at the break get up and start striding and get that extra swing.
• 1:18:09
  SPEAKER_01: That looks great.
• 1:18:11
  SPEAKER_01: Love it.
• 1:18:12
  SPEAKER_01: So let's talk not nonverbals for a minute, because this is kind of that last piece from for me at least.
• 1:18:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:18:18
  SPEAKER_01: When you were going through Secret Service training to be did you do the protection, were there specific nonverbals you were looking for?
• 1:18:24
  SPEAKER_01: What in that realm do we need to know as the layman?
• 1:18:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I, you know, I I really enjoy this topic for a few reasons.
• 1:18:31
  SPEAKER_00: One is, you know, first of all, there are a lot of known um people in that realm of nonverbals.
• 1:18:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think Paul Ekman uh was one of the most known.
• 1:18:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I think what is interesting for anybody to learn is it's never just one thing.
• 1:18:49
  SPEAKER_00: In other words, he's crossing his arms, he's lying, or he's being defensive, or he's looking up to his left.
• 1:18:55
  SPEAKER_00: Well, there's so many other considerations, meaning context.
• 1:18:58
  SPEAKER_00: Is it cold in the room?
• 1:18:59
  SPEAKER_00: Is it just the way they do something with their arms because they don't have pockets?
• 1:19:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, is it cultural the eye contact, right?
• 1:19:06
  SPEAKER_00: You know there's a lot of cultures where eye contact, uh-uh, especially between, say, a man and a woman, doesn't happen.
• 1:19:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so taking all those things, like again, the leg cross, like all these different things.
• 1:19:16
  SPEAKER_00: So you really have to look at context.
• 1:19:18
  SPEAKER_00: You have to look at does do you have the baseline for the person?
• 1:19:22
  SPEAKER_00: So this is a change from their baseline.
• 1:19:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, what what is the like what are you interviewing them for?
• 1:19:29
  SPEAKER_00: What are you watching for?
• 1:19:30
  SPEAKER_00: Why are you watching for?
• 1:19:31
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a lot of different it is truly fascinating to study this, but is this person expressing like, okay, for example, they say something like, I got to think of what it is, like genuine smiles, tip like they engage these muscles around the eyes and the mouth.
• 1:19:47
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas like you can have like that fake smile, like can you think about like the psychopathic smile that's like the fake smile, right?
• 1:19:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, anxiety, like if somebody's super anxious, which would be typical, let's say you're totally innocent and you're being interrogated.
• 1:19:59
  SPEAKER_00: Of course they're gonna have muscle tension and they're gonna be like, ugh, like right, like people that have their, you know, their polygraphs, they're so nervous and they could be 1,000% innocent.
• 1:20:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um I'm trying to think of some of the other things that are super things, but like they're, you know, things that are just not true, crossing the arms, looking away, uh touching the nose was a big one.
• 1:20:20
  SPEAKER_00: I remember that.
• 1:20:21
  SPEAKER_00: People are like, oh, I touched his nose.
• 1:20:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, he's lying.
• 1:20:24
  SPEAKER_00: You're like, right?
• 1:20:25
  SPEAKER_00: But you're like, no, again, if you put a lot of cues together or a lot of clue clues, but they're behavior cues, they call them, you know, you gotta know the person's baseline and what's what's different.
• 1:20:36
  SPEAKER_00: You know, cops do this all the time.
• 1:20:37
  SPEAKER_00: And again, sometimes for them it's purely intuition what they're noticing.
• 1:20:40
  SPEAKER_00: Uh cops in it typically um are super intuitive.
• 1:20:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um, that's well, the ones that become detectives, period.
• 1:20:48
  SPEAKER_00: But I gotta tell you a little brag bragging story here.
• 1:20:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, there was a study a thousand years ago, like literally 2000, maybe 2005, so good 20 years ago, that tested all of these categories of people.
• 1:21:02
  SPEAKER_00: Do you know what I'm gonna tell you about?
• 1:21:04
  SPEAKER_00: That are like lie detectors, cops, judges, uh, priests, etc.
• 1:21:08
  SPEAKER_00: And the group of people that was found to be the best lie detectors were Secret Service agents.
• 1:21:13
  SPEAKER_00: And they didn't really know why.
• 1:21:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I just think, I think, well, because one of my professors and my my then my doctorate, we were talking about this.
• 1:21:22
  SPEAKER_00: He goes, Well, why do you think that's true?
• 1:21:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, wow, let me think about that.
• 1:21:26
  SPEAKER_00: My only, and I want to know if you have a theory, my only explanation, or my my one theory, or at least a contributor, was a lot of former, a lot of Secret Service agents are former athletes.
• 1:21:37
  SPEAKER_00: I I was a former, I am a former volleyball player.
• 1:21:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and as say an athlete, at least for me, you need to predict and know your opponents really well to be able to be a good player.
• 1:21:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like for volleyball, you got to see are they gonna are they gonna spike, are they gonna dink?
• 1:21:53
  SPEAKER_00: Are they gonna just, you know, so you're looking, you're reading everything about that person, their eyes, their, you know, body position, whatever.
• 1:22:00
  SPEAKER_00: So you're able, but that was only one theory.
• 1:22:04
  SPEAKER_00: I I don't think they hire people because they don't know what makes a good predictor of violence.
• 1:22:08
  SPEAKER_00: But for some reason, every time the Secret Service agents, like by far, were the better lie detectors.
• 1:22:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought that was kind of weird because I would have thought, well, why not FBI or why not DEA or why not what you know, whatever other agency.
• 1:22:20
  SPEAKER_00: So what do you think?
• 1:22:22
  SPEAKER_00: Because I know you've done classes on this.
• 1:22:24
  SPEAKER_00: What do you think?
• 1:22:24
  SPEAKER_01: I have two theories.
• 1:22:26
  SPEAKER_01: And my my original theory was that Secret Service got the secret classes, right?
• 1:22:31
  SPEAKER_01: They got the training that nobody else got, really.
• 1:22:34
  SPEAKER_01: So I thought their training must be so good, and it probably is, right?
• 1:22:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't want to take anything away from the Secret Service.
• 1:22:41
  SPEAKER_01: But it occurred to me, and this was the cynic in me, that that's possible, absolutely, could be some amazing classes.
• 1:22:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's also possible that if you wanted to put additional pressure on a perp during an interview, what better information could you have out there in the public sphere that says the Secret Service are the best detectors of lying comparative to every other So you're you're justifying and calling complete bullshit.
• 1:23:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's just put out there so that when you're put under the scrutiny of the Secret Service, you're just gonna say, fuck it, they're gonna know I'm lying.
• 1:23:14
  SPEAKER_00: That's a heck of a theory, Terry.
• 1:23:17
  SPEAKER_01: Imagine though, right?
• 1:23:18
  SPEAKER_01: If let's just say the marketing department said we want to put extra pressure on per on people so that when we interview them, we can get to the bottom of the financial crime mysteries quickest.
• 1:23:28
  SPEAKER_01: Well, if you tell that person, listen, out of all of the law enforcement branches, state and federal, doesn't matter, we're the daddies.
• 1:23:36
  SPEAKER_01: When we ask you questions, we already know, right?
• 1:23:38
  SPEAKER_01: The pressure is enough to start pushing an individual to have that stress response, which is invariably what acts as a catalyst for the nonverbal signals.
• 1:23:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's stress, it's not an individual lying.
• 1:23:52
  SPEAKER_01: So as you said earlier, yeah, somebody may have a stress response because they're innocent and they they just they're like nobody believes me, and I'm telling you the truth.
• 1:24:00
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, well, that's a stress response.
• 1:24:02
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't indicate that they're lying, it just indicates that stress is present, and that red flag could be something that we explore.
• 1:24:08
  SPEAKER_01: Now, I know that that's cynical to think that it was a marketing ploy, but you know what?
• 1:24:13
  SPEAKER_01: The fact that they're the results of this test put them so far ahead of everybody else to me felt like really like all of them can outperform everybody else by this percentage point when it comes to lie detection.
• 1:24:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:24:28
  SPEAKER_01: And it's quite possible.
• 1:24:30
  SPEAKER_01: And one thing I'll add to that, I think nonverbals are a great indicator of stress.
• 1:24:34
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think necessarily they're a great indicator of lying.
• 1:24:36
  SPEAKER_01: I think there are too many myths that go along with it, and it's it's too simple to say that person looked up and to the right instead of up to the left, and now they're making stuff up, right?
• 1:24:46
  SPEAKER_01: I I really do.
• 1:24:47
  SPEAKER_01: I think that tracking the eyes is one parcel of a cluster that perhaps might give an indication.
• 1:24:53
  SPEAKER_01: But I think that ultimately the best way to spot uh a lie is through statement analysis and the words that we use.
• 1:25:03
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's a much clearer indicator.
• 1:25:05
  SPEAKER_01: And you also don't need to be watching the person.
• 1:25:07
  SPEAKER_01: You can take that statement, dissect it, you know, down to, well, very small details to figure out where they've where they veered away from factual information and started making things up.
• 1:25:18
  SPEAKER_01: And there are, of course, that's you know, a very long, lengthy discussion.
• 1:25:21
  SPEAKER_01: But I think statement analysis overall tends to be better in terms of its capacity to give you that information.
• 1:25:27
  SPEAKER_01: Are they lying, are they telling the truth?
• 1:25:29
  SPEAKER_01: Versus nonverbals, which tend to be a little bit more towards okay, a sort of stress response.
• 1:25:33
  SPEAKER_01: That's a red flag, but it doesn't necessarily mean dishonesty, unless unless you get it.
• 1:25:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so when you say statement analysis, are you what do you mean by that?
• 1:25:41
  SPEAKER_00: Literally just the words?
• 1:25:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like the can you give an example?
• 1:25:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 1:25:45
  SPEAKER_01: So um there let's take a 911 call, right?
• 1:25:48
  SPEAKER_01: Somebody calls in to say, um, and uh the example I'm thinking of now, and the name escapes me, is a it was a father who called in to say his kid was missing.
• 1:25:58
  SPEAKER_01: And there were uh there were polite, hi sir, how are you?
• 1:26:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I just woke up from a nap.
• 1:26:05
  SPEAKER_01: I need to report, I was sleeping, but I just woke up and my child is missing, right?
• 1:26:10
  SPEAKER_01: And the there's a very relatively small statement from an individual that the language alone couldn't see what he was doing, couldn't see his face, couldn't see anything, right?
• 1:26:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's a 9-1-1 call, it's recorded.
• 1:26:21
  SPEAKER_01: The statement, um, when it was dissected and broken down, gave one red flag after another that what was happening was being fabricated.
• 1:26:33
  SPEAKER_01: There was a sense that uh he was being polite in the very beginning because he knew that this could potentially um either be part of the investigation, or more likely, he thought the person he was talking to was going to be part of the investigation.
• 1:26:45
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 1:26:45
  SPEAKER_01: There's uh there's a misbelief that you're talking to a police officer when you call 911, you're talking to a dispatcher.
• 1:26:51
  SPEAKER_01: So the statement itself, the words that are said, each word is chosen in a fraction of a second.
• 1:26:57
  SPEAKER_01: And so the it's very unnatural speech when somebody has to think about each word.
• 1:27:03
  SPEAKER_01: It becomes robotic.
• 1:27:04
  SPEAKER_01: And so when people are writing, I understand.
• 1:27:07
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:27:08
  SPEAKER_01: But the words themselves individually will give and lend themselves to what is really happening, what's the truth, and the fabrication and the words and stuff that don't match.
• 1:27:19
  SPEAKER_01: So statement analysis has been something that behind the scenes I've been doing studying for years because it fascinates me.
• 1:27:26
  SPEAKER_01: And it fascinates me because it links directly back to the brain and how we think about language.
• 1:27:30
  SPEAKER_01: And navigating around the truth to fabricate language is actually very hard to do.
• 1:27:36
  SPEAKER_00: So is part of your statement analysis.
• 1:27:38
  SPEAKER_00: I remember hearing this as part of one of those um, like what's another element of detecting someone's lying, is when they overexplain.
• 1:27:45
  SPEAKER_00: Can be, yeah.
• 1:27:46
  SPEAKER_01: More details are necessary.
• 1:27:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:27:47
  SPEAKER_01: Often the truth tends to be because it's it's not something you're trying to convince yourself of or the other person, but more likely yourself, when you are saying the truth, it tends to be simplistic, right?
• 1:27:59
  SPEAKER_01: Somebody That is accused of a crime.
• 1:28:02
  SPEAKER_01: We think you killed Brian on Monday night.
• 1:28:05
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't murder fucking Brian on Monday night.
• 1:28:08
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:28:08
  SPEAKER_01: So they may reiterate that, but it tends to be very simplistic language that gets to the heart of the matter.
• 1:28:14
  SPEAKER_01: Let's say somebody denies no, because on Monday night, no, I think I was I was out with my friends and I didn't even get home until one o'clock.
• 1:28:21
  SPEAKER_01: I couldn't have possibly because, and I don't even think, right, we start just rambling off.
• 1:28:26
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:28:26
  SPEAKER_01: Because we want to throw enough chaff chafe in the air to confuse and muddy the waters.
• 1:28:31
  SPEAKER_01: Let that spotlight over here.
• 1:28:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:28:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:28:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:28:35
  SPEAKER_01: Let that motherfucker talk.
• 1:28:36
  SPEAKER_01: Let them go where they want to go.
• 1:28:38
  SPEAKER_01: And when they've when they've talked themselves out, ask the question again and go.
• 1:28:42
  SPEAKER_01: Interesting.
• 1:28:43
  SPEAKER_01: What's the reverse chronology of that?
• 1:28:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's very it's it's still challenging, but it's easier to follow the truth chronologically backwards when it actually happened because it's experiential in experience.
• 1:28:54
  SPEAKER_01: You truly you did it, you lived it.
• 1:28:57
  SPEAKER_01: Here's the truth, I can go backwards.
• 1:28:58
  SPEAKER_01: You'll take some work.
• 1:28:59
  SPEAKER_01: But if you're making shit up, oh the stress, the words, it's all gonna fall into the world.
• 1:29:05
  SPEAKER_01: People are so interesting.
• 1:29:07
  SPEAKER_01: That is right, that is one of the things that I landed on.
• 1:29:10
  SPEAKER_01: People are bloody fascinating at every level.
• 1:29:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, if you if if you're anyone in your audience audience is looking for an interesting career, go into behavioral analysis, you'll love it.
• 1:29:20
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 1:29:21
  SPEAKER_01: Fascinating.
• 1:29:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:29:23
  SPEAKER_01: But but I also think it has a lasting impact on you personally because once you go down the rabbit hole, as you said at the very beginning, impossible to turn off.
• 1:29:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 1:29:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 1:29:34
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:29:35
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for coming back.
• 1:29:36
  SPEAKER_01: I this is I could literally for hours with you and just bounce things around.
• 1:29:42
  SPEAKER_00: Let's do it next time, like at five, so we could be having a cocktail.
• 1:29:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's actually a pretty good idea.
• 1:29:49
  SPEAKER_01: I have no idea how bad I will be at rambling once I get a drink in the world.
• 1:29:52
  SPEAKER_01: That's so funny.
• 1:29:53
  SPEAKER_00: That's what would make it good.
• 1:29:55
  SPEAKER_00: Then we're both more loose and just like throw it out there.
• 1:29:58
  SPEAKER_01: I know.
• 1:29:58
  SPEAKER_01: It's fascinating.
• 1:29:59
  SPEAKER_01: Just an idea.
• 1:30:00
  SPEAKER_01: Great.
• 1:30:00
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so I want people to be able to reach you.
• 1:30:02
  SPEAKER_01: I want them to be able to book you to see.
• 1:30:04
  SPEAKER_01: You've written a book.
• 1:30:04
  SPEAKER_01: You are uh you are an entertaining as well as an incredibly informative thing.
• 1:30:09
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 1:30:10
  SPEAKER_01: So how do they get a hold of you?
• 1:30:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I have a website, uh, drmarybeth.com.
• 1:30:14
  SPEAKER_00: So it's D-R-A-R-Y-B-E-T-H.com.
• 1:30:18
  SPEAKER_00: My book is called you can get on Amazon, look under Mary Beth Wilkesjanky.
• 1:30:22
  SPEAKER_00: I am Mary Beth Janky, but I when I wrote my book, um I wrote it with my maiden name and my married name to honor my parents.
• 1:30:31
  SPEAKER_00: So it's Mary Beth Wilkes Jenky, but it's just called The Protector.
• 1:30:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's a memoir, it's got a long subtitle, but you can look it up that way.
• 1:30:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um I did a TEDx talk called How to Live a Badass Life at Any Age.
• 1:30:42
  SPEAKER_00: So that's like 15 minutes.
• 1:30:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um that can be inspiring and interesting.
• 1:30:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and all that can be found on my webpage too.
• 1:30:49
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah.
• 1:30:51
  SPEAKER_00: Brilliant.
• 1:30:52
  SPEAKER_00: Feel free to contact me.
• 1:30:53
  SPEAKER_00: That is awesome.
• 1:30:54
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 1:30:54
  SPEAKER_01: Your ability to take incredibly heavy topics and just make them understandable or relatable and deeply human is fantastic.
• 1:31:02
  SPEAKER_00: So it's yeah, I mean that's the idea, right?
• 1:31:04
  SPEAKER_00: You you and I are both instructors, uh, you know, a big part of us, and so that's how you reach people.
• 1:31:09
  SPEAKER_00: You can't talk at this level and expect everyone to understand.
• 1:31:12
  SPEAKER_00: So um yeah.
• 1:31:14
  SPEAKER_01: No, and you have to have as much fun as you can, right?
• 1:31:17
  SPEAKER_01: And if you find the topic fascinating, it's much more interesting to see someone like that teach.
• 1:31:22
  SPEAKER_00: So Yeah, and you want to inspire people to be, you know, whatever they want to be and know that it's possible, and there are careers out there in this field.
• 1:31:30
  SPEAKER_00: So contact me if you want to talk.
• 1:31:33
  SPEAKER_01: Fantastic.
• 1:31:33
  unknown: Yeah.
• 1:31:34
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 1:31:34
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 1:31:34
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so glad we had this second conversation.
• 1:31:37
  SPEAKER_01: All right, thanks everyone who tuned into this episode.
• 1:31:39
  SPEAKER_01: As always, don't forget to like, share, and subscribe.
• 1:31:41
  SPEAKER_01: It helps the channel.
• 1:31:42
  SPEAKER_01: We we appreciate your support, and uh, we'll see you in the next one.
• 1:31:46
  SPEAKER_01: Cheers so much.