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Throwback: The Second Declaration of Anahuac! · Tales From Aztlantis

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_02: You must excuse me.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_02: Simple and easy in the number.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_02: But you remember the lesson.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_02: A lesson in honesty.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_02: Honesty to yourself, honesty to others.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_02: That lesson will stand you in good step on your life.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_02: I think we've all learned a good lesson.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_02: I've always heard that honesty is the best policy.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_02: Now I'm catching on to why that's so no, why that's so no, why that's so.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_03: Greetings, dear listeners, and welcome to yet another episode of Tales from Ostlantes.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_03: We are your hosts, Curly Tlapoyawa.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_03: And Ruben Arellano Tlaka Tekat.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_04: The second mandate of Anahuac.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_04: On November 26, 1988, a person by the name of Ramon Tirado delivered the Consigna del Sexto Sol, Segunda Consigna de Anahuac, or the Mandate of the Sixth Sun, Second Mandate of Anahuac, at the Convención de Anahuac, or the Anahuac Convention, which was held in Mexico City.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_04: The convention occurred on the eve of what would become the resurgence of indigenous nations and the 500 years of resistance movement.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_04: In just a few short years, the Western world would gather to celebrate the invasion of the so-called American continents and its supposed discoverer, Cristóforo Colombo, aka Christopher Columbus.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_04: In anticipation of this, indigenous people from the North and South began convening in events like this one to organize contestations to the centennial celebrations to come.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_04: However, despite the name of the convention and the delivery of a speech modeled after the consigna or declaration of Guatemok, which we've covered here before, as we just noted, this was not an indigenous-centered event.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_04: Rather, it was a gathering of political activists who were responding to the political dominance of the pre-PRI, Partido Revolucionario Institucional or the Institutional Revolutionary Party, and the widespread belief that it engaged in electoral fraud as well as concerns over the rise of neoliberal policies.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_04: The Convención de Anahuac lasted several days, during which various speakers delivered speeches and read reports of the working commissions of the group.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_04: It is useful to note here that the Convención de Anahuac was more than a gathering.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_04: It turned into an organized movement within a faction of the newly formed political party, the PRD, Partido de la Revolución Democrática or the Democratic Revolution Party.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_04: As protests against the recent election began to subside, the more radical faction of the PRD, particularly the Asamblea de Barrios or Assembly of Neighborhoods, initiated the Convención de Anahua, which convened not only in the final days of November, but also throughout December of 88 through January of 1989.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_04: Under the Convencion Platform, they were able to bring together individual citizens and social organizations to denounce electoral fraud and demand expanded democratic space in Mexico City.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_04: Initially conceived as a pluralistic forum, the Convencion adopted a flexible structure aimed at addressing the city's most pressing challenges.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_04: These included improvement in city government, ecology and energy, general employment, base salaries and social benefits, and the issue of free commerce.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_04: In general, populist events like these were usually attended by concerned citizens who sought the advancement of social and civil rights for the inhabitants of Mexico City and the nation overall.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_04: But these struggles were not new and unique to the 1980s.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_04: Their roots lay in the post-Mexican revolutionary era, but more specifically, in the protests and upheavals of the late 1960s.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_03: The emergence of a movement.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_03: The 1968 student movement ignited a broader social upheaval.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_03: While primarily composed of students, its core demands focused on expanding civil and political rights and increasing opportunities for public participation.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_03: This movement's enduring significance lies in its impact on citizen engagement in the political realm.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_03: The direct effects included legislative changes in civil, social, and political rights.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_03: For instance, the definition of so-called crimes of social dissolution was revised to foster human rights awareness and support the struggle for political prisoners.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_03: This in turn fueled the social movements of the 1970s and 1980s.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_03: Labor reforms, such as reduced work hours and expanded social security benefits, were partly influenced by the movement's momentum as well.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_03: Indirectly, the movement spurred nationwide calls for university democratization and opposition to emerging privatization trends.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_03: It also catalyzed the unionization of university staff and innovative educational initiatives like self-governance.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_03: Politically, the movement laid the groundwork for subsequent reforms.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_03: Its influence is evident in the rise of social movements and guerrilla groups during the early 1970s, many of which included former student activists.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_03: This era marked the emergence of numerous small-scale social groups empowering citizens to shape civil organizations from the ground up.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_03: While not a revolutionary uprising, this collective action fostered a new civic consciousness and a desire for democratic participation.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_03: Ultimately, the 1968 movement accelerated the demand for political reform, profoundly influencing citizen engagement and shaping the trajectory towards democracy.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_03: During the Echevarría and Lopez Portillo administrations, the movement expanded citizen participation in three distinct phases.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_03: Initially, a predominant strategy of electoral abstention emerged among the radical left, challenging the legitimacy of the government and reflecting widespread public distrust in the electoral process.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_03: This stance was influenced by the brutal repression of 1968 and the subsequent rise of urban guerrilla groups, which created an environment hostile to institutional participation.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_03: While some factions embraced armed struggle, these guerrilla groups ultimately faced isolation, repression, and eventual demise.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_03: Their focus on clandestine operations and terrorist acts alienated them from the broader population and hindered their ability to effect meaningful change.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_03: As the guerrilla movement waned, a shift toward electoral participation began, particularly at the municipal level.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_03: Citizens mobilized around issues of corruption, poor governance, and unmet social needs.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_03: These local struggles fostered a growing awareness of the power of the vote and the potential for influencing public policy through elected office.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_03: However, the competitive nature of local politics also led to divisions within the movement as different groups vied for control of municipal resources.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_03: Eventually, these experiences laid the groundwork for the broader political reforms that would follow.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_03: The third phase of this period was political reform.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_03: The government initiated this process as a strategic response to the growing social unrest and delegitimization it faced since 1968.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_03: By offering electoral concessions, the government aimed to channel leftist dissent within the institutional framework.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_03: If it could direct it, it might be able to control it.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_04: All these demanded a more comprehensive reform that extended beyond elections.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_04: They targeted government authoritarianism and worked to secure genuine civil and political rights.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_04: The political reforms of 1977 legalized some previously outlawed opposition groups, but it fell short of establishing a truly democratic system.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_04: While representing progress, the reform was limited to electoral processes, leaving broader issues of political participation and state structure untouched.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_04: The opposition sought a more substantial transformation, including freedom of association, independent political parties, and a reduction of presidential power.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_04: The government's strategy was twofold, legitimize the regime and control the opposition.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_04: By co-opting elements of the left, the government risked empowering a more critical opposition.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_04: Ultimately, the latter scenario unfolded.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_04: The expanded electoral space without corresponding democratic reforms created a system fraught with tensions.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_04: The 1979 entry of communist deputies into Congress did not quell the broader opposition.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_04: The PAN, the PAN Partido Acción Nacional or National Action Party, gained strength.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_04: Electoral fraud persisted, and the government's attempts to manage the opposition through the electoral process proved increasingly ineffective.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_04: Despite political reforms, the state's grip on civil society remained substantial.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_04: The left's response was complex and adapted to new institutional realities while criticizing their limitations.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_04: This led to a degree of reformism, a blurring of ideological lines, and a shift away from revolutionary rhetoric.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_04: It can be argued that these political parties overemphasized electoral tactics at the expense of grassroots organizing.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_04: While opposition groups undoubtedly evolved from spontaneous to more structured entities, they also fostered diverse forms of participation and challenged the political establishment.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_04: This dynamic altered the nature of class conflict and increased the cumulative impact of social activism on institutions.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_04: Over time, these diverse actions have helped shape the overall political landscape in Mexico, but more importantly for us here, these political upheavals, changes, revolutions, and evolutions have also influenced indigenous activism.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_04: The 1994 uprising of the EZLN, the Ejército Zapatista de Liberación Nacional A.K.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_04: de Zapatistas, is a great example of this anti-neoliberal tradition.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_04: But the reverse is also true.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_04: Indigenous voices have also helped shape the rhetoric and ideologies of modern Mexican politics.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_04: This is clearly the case with the public recitation by Ramón Tirado of the Consigna del Sexto Sol, a speech which he introduces as having first been delivered in February of that year, 1988, at a Velacion ceremony at the Templo Mayor.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_04: In his speech, Tirado makes the case for organizing the government of Mexico City based on the principles of Mexica governance, hence the speech which he borrowed from a council of elders espousing Mexicayot rhetoric.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_04: So he states.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_00: Alegrémonos mexicanos, y ahora que vuelve a amanecer para nosotros, reconstruyamos nuestros Teocaltim, templos, nuestros Calmecame, escuelas de altos estudios, nuestros Tlaxcowan, juegos de pelota, nuestros Telpochcaltin, escuelas para jóvenes, y nuestros Cuicacaltim, casas de cantos, y llenemos las calles y los campos de cantos para restaurar nuestra nación y que desde aquí vuelva a brillar el nuevo sol.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_00: No olvidemos decir a nuestros hijos que el Anáhuac es de ahora en adelante la nación del sexto sol y que a los cuatro vientos habremos de dar a conocer nuestra manera de dialogar y organizarnos, de hacernos sobrios y recios de cuerpo y pensamiento, de ayudarnos los unos a los otros en todos los trabajos y faenas colectivas de cada comunidad y cada barrio.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: Tampoco olviden las generaciones enseñar a sus hijos a cuidar y a defender a la naturaleza, como lo han venido haciendo nuestros mayores que han podido guardar lo comunal hasta hoy en día.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_00: Bien han valido la pena sacrificios y vidas ofrendadas para que se guardara esta costumbre.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_00: Nos mermaron, sí, como la tuza merma la milpa, pero no acabaron con lo principal que es el maíz y la forma de sembrarlo, siguiendo la cuenta de las vueltas en el cielo y en solidaridad.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_00: Seguiremos encendiendo las velas en recuerdo de los que fueron perseguidos y murieron en el sacrificio, y también encenderemos las velas en memoria de todos nuestros jefes: Tenocht, Acamapishli, Huitziliwitli, Chimalpopoca, Iscoatl, Motecusoma y Luicamina, Axayacatl, Tizoc, Ahuizotl, Motecusoma Sokoyotzin, Huitlahuac, Cacama, Tetlepanquetzali, Huautemoxin, Zapata, Jaramillo, y por todos los jefes que han caído por nosotros.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: Mexicanos, nos amanece apenas y muchos trabajos tendremos todavía que pasar, pero ya pasó la hora más negra cuando aletea el zopilote en el silencio más oscuro de la noche de opresión y la vida peligra, y no se sabe ni el rumbo, como nos sucedía hasta hace poco.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_00: Encenderemos también las velas en memoria de toda la generación de jóvenes que cayeron por el pueblo en las fechas recientes antes de esta alba, justo en las vísperas de que se supiera esta buena nueva.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: De hoy en adelante, la Asamblea Comunitaria será la que decida, solo será autoridad quien con su entrega al pueblo se la gane, y a los que les queme la vara de mando que la suelten primero por voluntad propia, sino el pueblo le pedirá que deje su lugar a otro, y si persiste en sus errores, el pueblo y nuestros nuevos jefes de ahí lo quitarán.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_00: De hoy en adelante, los ancianos serán respetados, y ellos, los platoanes, nos orientarán en los pasos difíciles por dar.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: Los consejos de ancianos serán restituidos, y así con el lugar que ocupan la mujer y el niño, porque la mujer toda esta noche de opresión fue la que primero defendió y guardó, y los niños de nuevo serán lo más sagrado.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: De hoy en adelante nos mantendremos hombre con hombre, escudo con escudo, a defender lo nuestro, pero a la luz, abiertamente, mano a mano con todos, para que las flores y los cantos regresen a nosotros andamos con la frente en el alto recebido la luz de la justicia y la unidad con que brilla el sexto.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_04: This will be read by Curly, and it is from the written transcription published in the New Visions of Aslan Journal, nineteen ninety two.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_03: Today, this year, to Flint of nineteen eighty eight, our sun has risen and begins to shine on us again.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_03: During the long night in which it remains.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_03: In Miquelan, we Mexicans resisted for five hundred years, dispersed by necessity.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_03: But since the days of the oldest ancestors, our tradition has been taught so that it is not lost.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_03: Let us rejoice, Mexicans now that dawn is breaking for us again.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_03: Let us rebuild our Teocaltin temples, our Tlachicoan ball courts, our Calmecame schools of study, in our Cuicacaltin, houses of songs, to restore our nation, and that from here the new sun may shine again.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_03: Let us not forget to tell our children that Anawak is from now on the nation of the sixth sun and that to the four winds we will make it known, our way of dialoguing, of organizing ourselves, of becoming sober and strong in body and thought, of helping each other in all the work and collective tasks of each community and each neighborhood.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_03: Let the generations also not forget to teach their children to care for and defend nature, as our elders have been doing, who have been able to preserve what is communal until today, and to those we lost preserving our tradition.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_03: They diminished us, yes, as the gopher diminishes the cornfield, but they did not destroy the main thing, which is the corn and the way of sowing it.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_03: And following the count of the turns in the sky in harmony, we will continue to light candles in memory of those who were persecuted and died in sacrifice, and in memory of all our leaders, the Notch Akama Bijli, we are booka, Mote Mina, Ashayaka, Awitizon, Mote Usoma Shokoyotin, Witilawa, Zapata, Haramiyo, and all who have fallen before us.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_03: It is just dawning and we still have a lot of work to do, but the darkest hour has passed, when the vulture flutters in the darkest silence of the night, when life is in danger and we don't even know where to go, as happened to us recently.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_03: That is why we will also light the candles in memory of the generation of young people who fell for the people in recent days, before dawn, right on the eve of hearing of this good news.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_03: From now on, the community assembly will be decisive.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_03: Only the one who earns their dedication to the people will be given authority, and they who are burned by the staff of governance should let it go of their own accord.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_03: If not, the people will ask them to leave their place to another, and if they persist in their errors, the people and our new leaders will remove them.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_03: From now on, the elders will be respected, and they, the Tlatwanis, will guide us in the difficult steps to take.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_03: The counsels of elders will be restored, and so will the place of the woman and the child, because the woman was the first to guard and defend through this long night, and the children will again be the most sacred.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_03: From now on we will stand shoulder to shoulder, and shield to shield to defend what is ours, but in the light, openly, hand in hand with everyone, so that the flowers and the songs may return to us, and with our heads held high, we can receive the light of unity and justice with which the sixth sun shines onward, Mexicans.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_03: Mexico Tenochtitlan, November 26th, 1988.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_03: That's actually a pretty dope speech.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_04: It is, isn't it?
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, that's yeah, I I really like that it follows.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, it's basically the second half of the so-called declaration of Gwatemuk, right?
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_03: Whereas Gwatemuk was saying, take all these things and hide them, right?
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_03: Our sun has left us, but we know it will shine again.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_03: Our sun has gone to Miklan, and we're gonna have to hide our Teokalis inside of our homes.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_03: We're gonna have to hide our ball courts inside of ourselves, and we're gonna have to keep in secret all of these traditions because we know people are coming to take them away, right?
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_03: And this is like this is a declaration literally of saying, okay, we did that, and now it's time to re-emerge.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_03: You know, our son has emerged from Miklan, and all of these things we're gonna do, but we're gonna do them out in the open, and we're gonna stand side by s I liked that line, stand side by side and shield to shield.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_03: I know, that's a really good line.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and that we're gonna do it all out in the open and we're and we're gonna uh you know reinstitute the the sacredness of our elders and of our women and of our children, and that we're gonna go back to the way that our ancestors had done things.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_03: So it's it's really cool, man.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_03: I actually got chills reading it.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_04: It was pretty badass.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_04: So, I mean, before we continue, because I mean I want to respond to a few things you said, I do want to make a note here that the original audio for this, I happened to find it after I went into this deep dive searching for keyword terms.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_04: I was searching for Convención de Anahuac, I was searching for uh La Segunda Consigna, del Sexto Sol.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, I was putting plugging in a bunch of words through the various search engines, and I don't know how this was like deep into the night.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_04: It was like one or two in the morning.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_04: I was doing this, and I was like half asleep, and I had just happened to find this this uh this clip that was posted in in a database somewhere, and I copied I copied the the link to that, but now the link isn't working, so I don't know if it was because I was using it through some portal that just happened to be open somehow.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_04: But I've tried to go back.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, and the reason I say this is because just in case someone's looking for for the original clip, the original clip, those of you that are old school like we are, might remember that back in the day we had uh cassette recorders that you could take out into the field and like do interviews.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_04: And if you know anything about those cassettes, when you play them back, they're slower than the actual conversation you had.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_04: They sound like slower.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_04: And they degrade over time, and they degrade over time.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_04: And that was the case with this.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_04: I was listening to this, and so there's various cassette tapes that someone recorded of the various speeches that were done that day, and this one happens to be the very first file in that in that series, and it was the very first speech in that one hour long uh recording.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_04: So I lucked out because I just started I hit play and I'm like, oh wow, there it is.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_04: It's like the very first one.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_03: Do you know if this was the the speech that started the whole convention?
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_03: Because it would be apropos.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_04: I think so.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_04: I think this was the first speech that kicked off that convention in November 26th of 1988, which lasted a few days at least, maybe three days, but for sure it was two days.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_04: So I clipped it.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_04: I had to capture the audio in real time because the website didn't allow me to download the file.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_04: And so uh what I did then is I ran it through the the audio processor, I spit up the pitch and the tempo of the speech to make it sound more natural because and and so I tried to balance between making the sound too fast and too slow.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_04: And and so what you heard is what I think it sounded like in in real time.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_04: It could have been a little bit faster, it could have been a little bit slower.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_04: But uh, so I did some minor adjustments, also uh edited out a lot of noise.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_04: If you if you notice from the um the beginning of the clip, there's a lot of like background noise where it looks it sounds like they're moving the recording, the tape recorder uh around a little bit, trying to find the perfect spot to place it, and you hear a lot of bumps and stuff.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_04: And so I tried my best to minimize those in between the pauses.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_04: Other than that, this is the original clip.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_04: But for instance, those of you that followed our podcast since the beginning and you've listened to the episode that we did on the consigna de Guatemal, and how we basically say, look, it's a great message, and you know, we used to subscribe to not that we don't subscribe to it anymore.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_04: The only difference now we would say is that we don't attribute it to Guatemalan himself, like we understand that this was something that is a product of the 20th century that came out of some of these indigenous uh Mexicanist groups from Mexico City.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_04: And if we take these two speeches and place them side by side, they're basically both of the same tradition, right?
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_04: Tirado, I'm not sure if he was connected because I'm uh I tried to find information on Ramon Tirado to see who he was in all this, and I had very little success in finding any information on him.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_04: He might have been someone who not only was uh a political activist, but maybe he was connected to the Tradicion, to the danza in some way, and he happened to be at that velacion, and then maybe asked if he could use that speech for the convention that he was about to participate in.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, that could be the case, you know.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_04: But if you take both of these two speeches, and like you were saying, this sounds like the second half of the first one, right?
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_04: Like if the Tradicion Mechicayot had been honest from the very beginning and had said, Look, we don't know what our ancestors, I mean, we have an idea of what they went through, but we don't really know because we weren't there and their voices weren't recorded at the time.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_04: But we can imagine, for instance, Quatemuk, if he surrendered, because there's also that controversy.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_04: Did he surrender or was he captured on his way to uh uh get reinforced?
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_03: Trying to escape on a boat, yeah.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_04: Right?
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_04: There's that version of events as well.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_04: So which one is it?
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_04: It can't be both.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_04: Either he was trying to get reinforcements or he was surrendering.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_04: Anyway, whichever version of events you accept, but like if the Mechicayot leaders of the middle of the 20th century, people like Luna Cárdenas, people like uh Neva Lopez and um Stanislao Ramirez, who uh supposedly is attributed as being the author of the speech, right?
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_04: Uh if they had just come clean from the very beginning and said, look, we don't know, we have no idea.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_04: But we can imagine our ancestors, maybe Quatemwok, maybe someone else, having delivered such a speech to our people.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe they felt it just didn't carry the same power as like forging this nationalist myth, right?
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_03: Like there's more power in attributing it to no, this is what Quatemwok said, and it was held in secret, and you know, now the word is getting out of this tradition of the speech that he had given.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_03: Like it's much more um sexy, right?
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_04: But they didn't anticipate.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_04: I guess what where I'm going with this is they didn't anticipate someone doing like a response speech to yeah, yeah.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_04: Because now that we have both, it's like, wow, this is pretty cool.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_04: We have the original speech that is attributed to Walt Demog that says we're we have to hide our stuff and keep it in secret and and save it for the future.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_04: And then we have the second half of the speech now telling us, hey, it's time to bring it you know back and recover our place in the world and be proud of who we are and bring back the houses of worship and the schools and all this good stuff.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_04: And I'm like, wow, I don't know.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_04: I don't know what to make of it, man.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_04: I really don't know.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_04: I I think I agree with you that it's a very moving speech.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_04: It's it's equally moving, if not more so, than the one attributed to Gwatema, because we know for a fact that this one had to have been done by someone in the 1980s during that time when the Michikayot movement and the Dansa movement were really gaining steam.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_04: And as I state in the beginning, you know, as they're kind of leading towards that moment where you're gonna have indigenous groups from north and south contesting and resisting and rejecting the celebrations of the Columbus Quincentenary so-called discovery of the Americas, right?
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_04: And so it's leading up to that, even though this is a political moment, there's a sense of that that's taking place with this individual Tirado borrowing that speech, right, from this Velacion that he claims to have attended at the Templo Mayor, which I was curious about, and I asked you too before we started recording.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_04: Like, was the Templo Mayor already open to the public in 1988?
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_04: Um uh or parts of it?
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_04: Were they allowing people to have ceremony and velaciones at the Templo Mayor at that time?
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that sounds what I'm picturing in my mind if you've if you've been to the Templo Mayor, because there's this little plaza that sits between the Catedral and the Templo Mayor.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_03: I'm imagining they would have held it there.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_03: Um because that's where a lot of danzantes congregate to to do danza because that would make sense.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_03: Right between the two.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_03: Um but yeah, as far as it being open to the public, I don't know, because you had the that massive earthquake just like three years prior.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, right, right.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_03: And I don't know what the work that would have gone into or or how badly the Temple Mayor was damaged.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_03: I actually don't know.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_03: That would be something interesting to look into.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_03: But yeah, I imagine that they were in that little plaza between the two buildings.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_04: Well, I mean, that question really piqued my interest, and so I started digging in through my other materials that I have here, and I recalled that in Yolor González Torres's book, Dansa tu palabra, La Danza de los Concheros, published in I believe 2005.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_04: Great so roughly, by the way, about 20 years now, close to it.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it is a it's a wonderful book.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_04: If you're interested and you want to take a deep dive into the history of the Danza Conchera and its various offshoots, uh my article just kind of scratches the surface.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_04: Uh Yolot here, she takes a very deep dive.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_04: And so, uh at least in my copy of the book on page 181, she does reference that in 1988 there was a velation that was that took place.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_04: I'm gonna read it in Spanish and then try to do a quick translation in English.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_04: It says In 1988, in a velation of various jefes, nombromed Capitan Jesus Leon Salgado, actual dirigente of Insignia Zastecas.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_04: Nanita, who she's referencing here, murió in 1993.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_04: The ultima danza de Nanita was the 1 December of 1993, etc.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_04: And so basically what she's what she's saying is that in 1988, Nanita, who used to be the the jefa of Insignia Aztecas, a danzante corporation that goes back all the way to the 1920s, if I'm not mistaken.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_04: And so she is naming her successor in 1988.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_04: I guess she's already, you know, maybe she feels like her health is in decline and she needs to, you know, pick who's gonna take charge of Insignia Stecas when she's gone.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_04: And sure enough, by 1993, she's you know, she's passed away.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_04: And I was trying to see if m if maybe this could be the connection to the Velacion that Ramon Um is referencing, uh, where he got the speech from in 19 because it's it's in 1988, then that's the only date that's given.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_04: There's no month, there's no day, there's no other information given about that Velacion that Nanita where Nanita uh named her successor, but I'd be curious to note if Ramon was part of those uh those conversations that were taking place at that time.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_03: Were you gonna translate that?
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_04: Well, I basically just did a loose translation.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's fascinating.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_03: Um and that's a good point.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_03: I wonder if they were connected.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_03: Because like I said, I would be surprised if this convention of Anahuac didn't have some some representation, some representatives from the at least, you know, if not the MCRCA, then the offshoot groups, like you mentioned.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_03: Because especially considering that Nieva Lopez was very um involved in politics, right?
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_03: Like he wanted to run for president and all of these things.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_04: And you know the the other connection to all to all this is you know there's a reference in in the in the con in the in the speech here, um, where they talk about the young people who have died, who perished, right?
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, they're basically referencing the students who were massacred in 1968 in that speech.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, that's what I gather from it, right?
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's what I got from it too.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_04: Because if if you if you read the the context, right, that we just if you go back and listen to the context uh that that we just presented here before we uh um played the speech, and and you know, if you go back in time and and you look at these various movements, uh a lot of this nationalist rhetoric, a lot of this populist movement, a lot of left-leaning and and and communist-leaning groups that emerged, emerged at that time and during the student movement, right?
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_04: And they were persecuted.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_04: And then also you have the connection of the rejinistas, the story of that young lady who was supposed to have been like an anointed person who had uh lived in Tibet and had met the Dalai Lama, was a learned individual, uh, an enlightened person and who had led students or a movement of some sort during this time as well.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_04: But that whole movement of the refinistas, they're basically uh a movement of mexicanidad, a type of nationalist movement that borrowed ideas from Mexicayot and that borrowed ideas from Dan Santes and sort of came up with their own repackaged version of that.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_03: And I want to look into that story more because I've always thought, like, well, what other ideas do they borrow from?
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_03: Because her story reminds me of like the Ascended Masters, right?
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I wonder if there's a modern version of followers that look at her as like an ascended master and and star children and all that shit.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_03: I wouldn't be surprised.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_03: I'll have to go poke for the show.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_04: Well, maybe we need to have a rejinista on the show.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_04: Hey, any rejinistas out there if you're listening, give us a shout and uh maybe we'll have you on the show.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_03: And you didn't get you didn't get turned off by uh episode two in out of sheer hate.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_03: If you're if you're hate listening to us, I'm sure we have some of those as well.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_04: So so back to the speech.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_04: Um, what else stood out to you in this speech, right?
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, so we talked about the line of the the shoulder to shoulder, shield to shield, and uh about uh honoring the women and the children, uh the the young people who were massacred, and what was the other thing that you you mentioned?
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_04: Just the the sheer fact that it's kind of like the continuation, like the part two.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, they do call it La Segunda Yeah, yeah.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_04: Right?
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_04: La Segunda Segunda Mandata de Anahuac, second mandate of Anawak.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_03: And and we talk about this in in the episode we did on the declaration of Guatemok.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_03: You have that very that suspiciously similar speech from the Chronica Mexicayot.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_04: Which basically is the original source of that one, right?
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's what it feels like when you when you read it, it's like, well, it's basically saying the same thing, you know?
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_03: But what I really liked about this one, let me see if I could find it, is when he he talks about how we've been diminished in the same way that you know, animals diminish the cornfields.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_03: But the corn and our knowledge, the way of sowing the corn remains, right?
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_03: And I don't know, that I just thought that was really cool.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_03: Like, yeah, you you messed with the the earth, but we could still grow in it, you know, and we could still rise from it.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_03: They tried to bury us, Ruben.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I had a feeling you were gonna go there.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_04: I saw it coming.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_03: I saw it coming.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_03: No, but all jokes aside, I really like that line.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_03: I like the idea that yeah, we we we're still gonna grow because you didn't destroy our knowledge of growing.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_03: You know.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_04: So I thought that was cool.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_04: Do you think that in a way this speech reinforces the mythology of the first one?
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_04: Of the the the first mandate?
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_03: I could yeah, I well.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_03: I wonder how many people would read this and even know about the first one.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_03: Although I I guess if you're reading this, you're you probably know.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_04: Well, I mean, you do make a good point.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, the people where it was if if it's true that this was first uh uh delivered at a at a Velacion, then people at the Velacion more than likely some people maybe because not all danzantes were especially at that time were necessarily deep into Mexicayo, right?
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_04: Mexicayo and Dansa have always maintained a separation, but there's a lot of overlap, especially nowadays, but even back then, like the separation was more distinct.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_04: Uh so you might have had some people who knew of the consigna de Cuatemoc.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but the people at the convention of Anahuac who happen to be more political that aren't necessarily connected to the Ansaur or the Tradicion in any way.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_04: Um, do you think those people would have known?
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, because he does introduce it at the beginning, right?
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_04: But he doesn't really provide that background context as to why this is the second.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_04: What happened to the first one?
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_04: Like, you know, I wonder if someone after the fact, you know, went and talked to him.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_04: Hey, I like what you said.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_04: Um, so you say this is the second one, you know.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_04: Maybe uh is there a first one to this?
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_04: I'd like to to hear it, I'd like to know it.
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_04: So you know.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_04: You could have had that kind of interaction taking place, but I think for the most part, and these these conventions, these gatherings, these political uh gatherings were well attended by a lot of people in Mexico at the time.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_04: Um, because I remember as a kid, you know, this is in the 80s, we we used to as a family, we used to visit relatives a lot more back then, and and I do remember um there was always a lot of political activity and a lot of political action taking place.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_04: I remember the the um the the various uh placards that were would be plastered all over the walls and the various uh political slogans that are painted on some walls.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_04: And I remember from back then seeing the the PRD, the Perde, the Partido del Trabajo.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, I would see all that, and it always used to intrigue me because even as a kid in the 80s, like I already knew, like in the American context, you had Republicans and Democrats, right?
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_04: Um I was that kind of kid that paid attention to that sort of stuff.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_04: I was I was nerdy like that.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_04: So um so it would always intrigue me when I would go to Mexico and I would see that they had like it seemed to me like dozens of political parties everywhere you went with different names.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_04: And the family, uh we had uh family members in Mexico who were deeply involved with some of these things, right?
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_04: Through their work, uh contacts and and things like that, or just being local representatives of whatever political faction that they happened to be involved with, and so they would talk about this stuff, and and so I remember like there was always a lot of you know, kind of like what you're seeing now, right, with with um with the conventions for the uh the presidential election that that are currently taking place, but it seemed like in Mexico it was always happening all the time, like no matter the the the year, if whether it was a pr presidential election year or not, every year we went to visit, there always seemed to be a lot of political activity taking place at that time, and it was always a truck with a really shitty speaker driving around the neighborhood like I'm like, god damn, what is that?
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_03: I do remember those two.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_03: So and then I one thing I remember is um you know, you'd have because they would just paint directly on the walls, right?
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_03: The logos of each party, right?
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_03: But then they would have a circle with an X.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_03: An X, yeah.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_03: And I always thought that meant like they were anti Right Because in the United States, yeah, you're crossing them out, but you know, later they're like, no, that means vote for them.
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_03: Vote for them.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, that was also confusing to me at first until I finally figured it out.
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, okay, I see.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_03: So this speech did did Tirado provide any other context of like who he got it from specifically?
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_03: Like, did anybody claim authorship of it?
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_03: And that's it.
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_04: Like, so the the journal, the New Visions of Aslan, doesn't provide any authorship, it just accredits it to having been delivered at the Convención de Anahuac, which is where I got that from.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_04: And so I started looking at Convención de Anahuac, and it led me to the tapes, um, and led me to Tirado, uh, that clip that we just heard.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but besides what he says at the beginning, where he attributes it to having heard it from uh Arabelación and that uh uh you know that that there's a council apparently of elders, um that's it.
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_04: There's no like proper names given of anyone or a group name given.
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_04: And and as I said earlier too, like um looking up Dirado's name, Ramon Tirado, doesn't I mean it produces results, but not anything that is associated with this.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, so I had no success in in tracking down.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_04: But maybe one of our listeners out there might have heard of this before, maybe has uh intimate uh connection to this through family relations that uh could be able to provide us with some insight, and you know, if we ever do uh get some more information about this speech and tirado the convención de Nahuac and its connection to Dansa Mexicayo, if there is any, then we will be sure to let our listeners know.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and tell me the truth, how stoked were you to find the recording for this?
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_04: I was like super excited.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, I was jumping up and down in my seat.
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_04: I'm like, I could not believe I had found the actual recording of the speech.
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_04: Because, you know, as a historian, when you have one source, I mean, that's just one source.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_04: But when you have multiple sources, especially a speech of a written text that you found, I mean, it just reaffirms that that that connection that you have with with with with the sources, and and it just adds more value to what you're trying to say about that, right?
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_03: It literally, I was gonna say it, it feels like finding treasure when you're doing research, when you pull up that one piece and you're like, ho ho shit.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, I can imagine like for you being in the field, right, and and finding an artifact that has been in the ground for thousands of years, and you happen to be the first human to come around and uncover that after so many years.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_03: You're the first person to hold it in your hand.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_03: Hold it in your hand after so long.
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_03: And you could sometimes you see the fingerprints, especially if it's pottery, you know, you'll you'll see fingerprints on the insides of the bowls.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_03: And it's wow.
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_04: Wow, that's amazing.
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_04: And so, as far as this recording goes, I'm not sure if anyone else has used it in research.
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, I would have to dig deeper to see if anyone's actually listened to the tapes um that have been they've only been recently digitized.
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_04: I think they go back to like 2015, so maybe 10 years at this point.
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_04: And so sometimes things will get digitized, but just because they're digitized doesn't mean that they're being accessed.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_04: For instance, well, this isn't a good analogy, but when I was still dissertating, um speaking of Juan Luna Cárdenas, and I think I shared that audio with you at one point.
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_04: Um I was I was at the Benson and I was looking uh for material uh about Luna Cárdenas, and I discovered that he had this is before I found out that he had taught there uh for a semester.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_04: I discovered that not only had he visited Austin, but that he had been interviewed for a show on the Longhorn uh radio network.
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_04: Uh I think the show was called La Honda at the time, uh, and so they discussed uh uh you know things that were relevant to the Mexican-American Chicano community, and they interviewed him because he was there for some some meeting of some sort, and uh he happened to and the reporter happened to be at that same uh meeting and she interviewed him.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_04: Uh but then he also did uh a separate um TV show, local TV show from Austin, if I'm not mistaken.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_04: I had to go back and check my notes, and this was in a I forget what it's called, but it's a kind of tape, it's not a cassette tape.
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_04: Uh this is before beta, it was a weird tape um that had its own playback uh uh device, right?
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_04: And when I asked to borrow it, literally the people in the special collections told me that I was the first person to ever have requested that specific item.
• 51:59
  SPEAKER_04: Ever.
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_04: And when they brought the box, I opened the box, and the tape was like you were saying earlier, had so had been in that box for so long and had deteriorated to the point where the tape was stuck.
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_04: And so what they did is they took it to the to the lab where they handled these sorts of things, and they actually, you know, fixed it and digitized it for me, and then gave me a CD of that audio.
• 52:30
  SPEAKER_04: So sick.
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_04: And so I'm like, whoa! Like not only was I the first one, but I also was like the catalyst to having this thing made accessible to future researchers, which I don't know if anyone else has come back through.
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, I'm probably still the only one who's ever listened to that.
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe somebody listened to that episode of the podcast, and they're like, I want to hear that.
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_04: So this is not the first time that it's kind of like a eureka moment as a historian.
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_04: Like, wow, look at this.
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_04: It's very cool.
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, thanks for asking that.
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_04: I hadn't even considered that, but yeah, that that's very true.
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_03: Well, uh, thank you for bringing this to our attention.
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_03: And remember, folks, the truth is like medicine.
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_03: It doesn't always taste good.
• 53:15
  SPEAKER_03: But it is always good for you.