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Ghostwriting 101: What Experience and Credentials Do You Need? · The Daily Writer

• 0:05
  SPEAKER_00: Hey friends, welcome back to the Profitable Rider Podcast.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: If you're new here, my name is Kent Sanders.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: I'm an author and a ghostwriter, and this is the show that helps you grow your impact and income as a writer.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_00: A couple of weeks ago, I introduced this new series on ghostwriting.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: And last week we talked about what clients really want in a ghostwriter.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: And if you checked out that episode, you'll remember that I said that ghostwriting is a high trust business.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: In other words, it's not just about the task or the job.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: A huge part of your success comes from your ability to engage with people, to listen, and to build good relationships.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_00: However, that's not all.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: You can be the nicest guy in town, but if you can't do the actual work of writing, then you're not going to have a ghostwriting business for very long.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: A few days ago, I had a plumber come here to the house for a quick repair on one of our toilets.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: Now I enjoy talking to him.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: His name is Frank.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: He is a self-employed plumber.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: He doesn't have a big staff or anything like that.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's just him.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: He goes around doing plumbing work, makes a good living.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: I really like Frank and I enjoy his personality and I enjoy talking with him.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: This is actually the second time he's been here in a month.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_00: That's a long story as to why we've had plumbing issues.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: But anyway, uh Frank's been here a couple times, and the way that I initially found Frank is I just searched on Google, like most people do, for a plumber.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: And if Frank had gotten here and we enjoyed talking and we had a good rapport, but yet he didn't know how to do the actual plumbing work, and he was like, um, I don't know what a shutoff valve is or how to fix it, then that would have been a bad sign.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: So in other words, uh Frank needed to know how to do the actual work, in addition to just being a nice guy and being easy to talk to.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_00: And it's those two things that really create any good business, isn't it?
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: We have to have the people side down, but we also have to have the task side down.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: Now, most ghostwriters don't get business based on Google reviews, so it's not like people are looking us up on Google.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_00: Well, actually, actually, that's not true.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: I did have a client a few uh a couple of months ago.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: I did a very small project for them, and the way they found me was they Googled Business Ghost Rider, oddly enough.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but as a rule, that doesn't really happen.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's not like we get ghostwriting gigs typically based on Google reviews.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_00: We get we get those typically based on referrals and relationships and things like that.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: So assuming that we're good with people and people enjoy talking to us and we're empathetic and we're good listeners and and we do and we're doing the things that I've talked about the last episode or two, what kinds of actual things make us credible to somebody who might hire us?
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_00: Or another way of asking this question is what validates you in your prospective client's mind?
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: And this is a really key question because ultimately that's the only person's opinion that really matters since they're the one hiring you, right?
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_00: Now let's start here uh with something that might seem kind of obvious.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: I've seen a couple of certification or degree programs for ghostwriters, and um I I know that's a thing that's out there.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know a lot about them.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: I know years ago when I was thinking about what kind of a writing business I might want to have, I looked into one or two of those, and I I don't recall really any specifics.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: I think one might have been in California, but I don't remember for sure.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um I would guess those programs do have some value.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I've I went through my friend Nick Pavlitas' ghostwriting training um back in what year was it anyway?
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_00: It was 2019.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_00: I had to stop and think.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so this fall, it will have been five years since I I was actually the very first student to go through his training.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: Uh his training wasn't even ready yet, but I basically was like, Nick, I'm like begging.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: Please let me go through your training uh on ghostwriting because I really want to build a business.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: And he graciously let me go through it.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: And um I'm so grateful that Nick let me do that because uh the stuff wasn't really ready, but I found immense value in it uh anyway.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um so that's how I got started was I went through a uh literal program.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I know there are other similar programs out there as well.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_00: There are certification programs for ghostwriters, degree programs, that kind of thing.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_00: And and I'm sure that all of those do have some values.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_00: I do want to say this, however, clients are concerned about many things, as they should be, but clients never ask me about my certifications or my degrees when we're talking about potentially working together.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I have a Bachelor of Arts degree and two master's degrees, but that's not really what clients care about.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_00: They want to know if I'm experienced, if I can do the work, if I'm easy to work with, and most of all, will I produce a great book for them?
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_00: So the first quote unquote credential, if you want to put it that way, is that the client connects with you on an emotional level.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_00: Now, in practical terms, that means that you're not pushy, that you can listen, that you're pleasant, and you don't you don't talk too much.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and I think that's really, really important uh that you don't dominate the conversation.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_00: That's bad in any sales situation, but particularly with ghostwriting where it you really have to connect emotionally with the client.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: So if you take away nothing else from this episode, I want you to remember this.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_00: The heart of great ghostwriting is listening.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: The heart of great ghostwriting is listening.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_00: And this applies to both the process of talking with prospective clients as well as once you sign somebody, uh you have to listen.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_00: You have to ask good questions.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're going to get good material to work on a book with, uh you have to be a good listener and ask good questions and really be able to key in on the threads of the story somebody is telling and do all the things that good listeners do.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_00: Now, let me be straightforward with you for a second.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_00: I see tons of writing craft books out there on how to write, how to structure your book, how to publish, how to do storytelling, and so forth.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: But I can never recall seeing any resources for writers, or for ghostwriters that matter, on how to be a good listener.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: A prospective client assumes that you know how to write a good book.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_00: That's really the task of the job.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: But can you work with the client in a way that makes them feel good?
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: Do you have the emotional intelligence and the empathy to make them feel valued and affirmed and important?
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_00: And this really gets to the heart of why a lot of great writers don't have great businesses.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_00: They're so obsessed with the craft of writing that they forgot about the craft of actually interacting with humans.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: Who are the very people that they're doing all this work for in the first place?
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: So, in other words, as we talk about what validates you in the mind of your prospective client, yes, degree programs can be helpful, certification programs can be good, things that help you do the work are good.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_00: But the very first thing that validates you in their mind is are you a person who I can trust?
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: Have I emotionally connected with you?
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: Do you seem like you're a person who kind of has their stuff together and is not going to be a person of high drama and that kind of stuff?
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that's important to remember.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: When you think about what is your client looking for, one of the very first things that are going to be important to them is when they talk to you, um, are you a person who can listen, who can ask good questions, and who they can relate to as a human being?
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_00: However, that's not all.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, let me get back to the main question here, which is what kinds of credentials are most important for ghostwriters?
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_00: So we've talked about the emotional component of connecting with somebody, but I do want to give you a few things that I believe can be helpful as you build your ghostwriting business.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_00: So I've already mentioned degrees, courses, certifications, those kind of things.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_00: Now, as I've indicated, most clients don't really care that much about those things.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_00: They're not gonna ask you about what certifications you've been through or what courses you've been through to become a ghostwriter.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_00: They're not going to, those things are not gonna cause somebody to hire you to hire you.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_00: They're not gonna go, oh, you've been through such and such course.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna hire you because of that.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_00: That's not how it works.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_00: However, I do want to say that any training that helps you become a better writer or a better salesperson or a better communicator, that's probably gonna help you to be more excellent in your work, which is going to help you build your business over time, and that's a really important thing.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_00: But I would not put degrees and courses and certifications super high on the list of things.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the second thing that is going to uh give you credibility as a ghostwriter is a track record that shows that you're an established writer.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: This, in my mind, is actually far more important than any sort of a degree or course or certification that you can say that you've been through.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_00: If somebody's going to trust you to write their book or other content, they want to know that you're established as a professional.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_00: They want to see some of your previous work and they want to get a sense of your skills and your personality.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_00: So I would advise you to have some items in place to show that you're established as a writer.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_00: One of those things is a weekly blog.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: I believe that if you're a writer, you should be writing on a weekly basis somewhere, especially if you're in the early stages of building your writing business.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: Now, this could be a website, this could be Substack, it could be a newsletter.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: I encourage you to write something weekly and then share it in multiple places.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_00: Another place that you can show another thing that you can do to show that you're an established writer is to write on social media and be active there.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_00: I think that you need to be active on the platform where your ideal client hangs out.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn, and I'm active variously on those different platforms.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_00: And the cool thing is that you can also repurpose your blog posts and your other material there.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_00: So I mentioned, you know, uh a second ago I mentioned having a weekly blog.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_00: You can take that material and you can repurpose it on social media or on a newsletter or website or Substack or social media or whatever it is, and that's really cool because then you're getting like quadruple duty out of the same material, which is awesome.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_00: And then a third thing that you can do to show that you're an established writer is to have your own book.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I think one of the very best ways to show your skill as a writer is to have a book that you have authored, not just for somebody else, but for yourself.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: What I would recommend that you do is write a short book that solves a specific problem for a specific audience.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_00: And you can actually do this pretty fast.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: And if you haven't yet signed your first ghostwriting client, if you're trying to snag that first client, I would make it your goal to publish your own short book within the next 90 days.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_00: A short book of a hundred pages or less, maybe something like 15,000 words, something like that.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, if you want to be a professional writer, that should be zero problem at all.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you want to get into ghost writing, you're going to be writing a lot more words than that, trust me, in a short amount of time, typically.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: So a 15,000-word book should be no problem at all for you if you aspire to get into ghostwriting.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's going to be good practice and it's going to help build your business.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's going to do a lot of good things for you.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_00: So those are three things that you can do to show that you're an established writer.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: Now, let me share one more thing in terms of credentials that people uh that will help people to know that you are credible as a writer, and that is testimonials or endorsements from previous clients.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's important to have some of these on your website or in a document where prospective clients can read these.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I wouldn't get too stressed about these because it's actually pretty rare that somebody has asked me for testimonials or endorsements from past clients.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: However, in the situations where somebody does ask, I want to have those handy, and so I keep a sheet with some of those on there.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: Uh they're on my website, and you know, it doesn't hurt to put these on social media or several places, including a sheet that you can give to people or uh or your website.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_00: Now, what's actually far more important than testimonials is a warm referral from somebody whom the prospective client trusts.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_00: That's actually more valuable than almost anything else that you can do.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: Because when somebody recommends you to a friend of theirs, uh, particularly if it's somebody that that has hired you, man, that is immensely powerful.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: Because that person can vouch for you and they can say, hey, I've worked with so-and-so, they're great, and I think you're really going to enjoy working with them.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: This is why it's so critical to build your network and to spend time nurturing relationships with people who run in the same circles as your prospective clients.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of the uh a lot of the reason why many people who want to build a ghostwriting business have not built it to the level that they want is not because of writing skill, it's because they simply haven't taken the time to build those really critical relationships with people who can then refer them to the right person.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: So um most of you probably know I used to be a college professor.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: I taught college for many, many years.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but there's a reason why you know I don't spend a lot of time around college professors these days.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_00: It's not because I don't love them, it's because college professors typically don't hang out with business people who hire ghostwriters.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's really that simple.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: I love teachers, I absolutely love teachers.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_00: I was one for a long, long time, and I have a huge heart for people who work in nonprofits and people who are pastors and teachers and those kinds of things.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, however, those those people don't typically hang around business leaders who can afford ghostwriters, and that's no slight on anybody.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: So please don't hear please hear my heart on this.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I'm not trying to slight anybody.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just saying, just as a business strategy, you know, I don't go to college professor meetups.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: I don't I don't spend time around people who do that for a living because they're not typically very connected to the people who I'm looking to hire me as a ghostwriter.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_00: So think about your ideal client.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: Who are you spending time around that knows your ideal client?
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, this is an important thing that I learned from Nick Pavlitas.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, learned a lot of good things from him.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_00: He's a wonderful business leader, a great ghostwriter.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, one of the things that he taught me was to basically hang around people who know others who can refer business to you.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: And it's really, really that simple.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_00: So if you want to grow your ghostwriting business, who are you hanging around with?
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: Are you hanging around with people who are rubbing elbows and spending time with your ideal clients?
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: And if not, what can you do to get on to get in those rooms?
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_00: I'll be honest with you, this is one of the reasons why I've had a podcast for a really long time, is so I can have conversations with many of those people.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: And um having a podcast has been indispensable for my ghostwriting business, even though my podcast is not about ghostwriting per se.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you know, this podcast is for writers and helping writers, it's not for helping people who want to hire ghostwriters.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_00: I've had a lot of people on the show who then have helped me get in touch with uh ideal clients.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, this happened literally, this exact thing happened just a few weeks ago.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, long story short, I had a guest on a couple years ago who I hadn't talked to in a long time, and out of the blue, they called me about a month ago and said, Hey, I was on a plane, and no, I'm not making the story up.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_00: I was on a plane going somewhere, and I got bumped up to first class, and I happened to sit next to this gentleman who's very, very high up in this certain industry, and he's wanting to do a book.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: And uh this gentleman that I'm talking about, he's he doesn't typically do ghostwriting, but he does a lot of work in uh as a literary agent and some other things in that regard.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_00: And so I was the first person that he thought of, and so he connected the guy on the flight with me, and now we're doing a book together that's gonna be pitched to all of the major publishing houses.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_00: I just signed a contract for the book proposal a couple weeks ago.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_00: So that goes to show you the value of networking with people and building relationships.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: I promise you.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: When you take the time and effort to build those relationships, they absolutely pay off.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_00: And but you got to do it in a generous way, in a way that's legitimate, where you're giving and you're just trying to serve people and help people and do good in their life.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, it really, really does pay off.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: I promise you.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, well, I hope that this episode has been helpful to you.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I went off on a few tangents, as I often do in these solo episodes, but as you can tell, I'm really passionate about this.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: I love what I do, and I really also love uh helping writers, and I want to see you be successful.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, good, good night.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: There are so many people out there who need good books written.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: So whether you are wanting to get into ghostwriting or maybe you want to build up your ghostwriting business, or maybe you're doing more freelance article writing, maybe you're a graphic designer, um, maybe you don't have aspirations of doing clan work, but you just want to build up your own business.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: You really, really can't do it.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: I believe in you.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I know what it's like to some to sometimes be in moments in your life where you're really discouraged and you sit back and you go, Man, does anybody like believe in what I'm doing?
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_00: Because let's be honest, you know, we writers are a little bit quirky.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: Uh we're a little different, but that's what makes us so special.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_00: That's what makes us so awesome.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_00: And in those moments where you sit back and go, man, is there anybody in my life who believes in what I'm doing and who who thinks that I'm capable of building a successful business?
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: You can just think of your buddy Kent, uh, because I do believe in you.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_00: I spent a lot of years as a college professor wondering if I would ever be able to do anything beside that.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I I loved I love my students, I love teaching, but I'm gonna be totally honest with you.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: I was really hamstrung for a long, long time by just having a really small salary.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: It really hampers everything when you have a small salary as a college professor.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: You can't fix up your house, you can't drive uh a little bit nicer vehicles that don't break down all the time, uh, you know, sometimes you struggle to make car repairs when you need them because you don't have the money.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um you can't take your family on vacation very often.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's like all those things are a major problem, you know, and um as noble as sometimes we make out certain professions to be, the fact of the matter is that if you're stuck in a job where you have a low salary and you feel hopeless in being stuck, that sucks.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: That's a terrible position to be in.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I was there for a really, really long time.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and it was only because I determined to make my exit out of that situation at some point, and also because I had a wife who believed in me and I had other people who believed in me and poured into my life that I was able to make a transition.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: And now I'm in a position where I get to do this full time, and I'm uh I just feel really blessed and honored that I get to do this and also to help some other writers along the way.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I am excited about next Tuesday's solo episode where I'm gonna be talking about a really powerful shortcut to credibility as a ghostwriter.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: You might be surprised what that is, uh, but when you hear what that shortcut is, I think you're gonna be energized to maybe go out and find some opportunities that are gonna help you to use that specific shortcut.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_00: A couple more things before I wrap up this episode.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_00: The first thing is that uh in the last couple episodes, I've mentioned that I'm considering putting together a ghostwriting course.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I've had several people contact me about that, actually, and I have really appreciated you guys getting in touch and I have appreciated those conversations.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: And if you'd like to give me your thoughts on what you might be looking for in a potential course on ghostwriting, I would love to hear that.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: Just shoot me an email at Kent at the profitable rider.com.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: I'd love to hear your thoughts and set up a quick Zoom or uh phone call, or if you just want to shoot me some thoughts over email, that's great too.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_00: I would seriously love to hear your thoughts on what you might like to see in a course.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: The other thing is I want to give a big thanks to today's sponsor, which is Vellum.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: And you've heard me talk about Vellum before.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: Why?
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_00: Because Vellum is awesome.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_00: The people who make Vellum and my friends at Vellum, they are just the most incredible human beings ever because they make a product that makes your life easier and also happens to create really, really beautiful ebooks in the process.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_00: Vellum is the book formatting software of choice for Mac users who really care about creating ebooks and print books that not just are functional, but that also look really, really good.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, let's be honest.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_00: We all have seen self-published books that uh let's just say they don't look too good.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, I got a book in the mail a couple weeks ago.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_00: I saw this cool book on Amazon.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I'm obviously not going to share the title of the book because I don't want to throw the author under the bus here publicly, but it's it was a book that had a really cool cover.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I got the book from Amazon a couple days later, and I opened it up, and I was sorely disappointed because it looked like it had been formatted in Microsoft Word, and not even formatted well.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like it was it was really, really bad.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm I'm a kind of a forgiving guy, but this was really bad.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought, man, these guys need Vellum yesterday.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't want that to happen to you.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_00: Because if the formatting and the the design of your book stinks, that's going to really detract from the success of your book.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_00: So don't make that mistake.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: You can always work with a designer, of course, and designers are awesome.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: But if that's something that you like to do yourself and maybe save a few bucks in the process, then by all means give Vellum a shot if you're a Mac user.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: The cool thing is that you can download Vellum and play with your book's formatting to your heart's content, and you only have to purchase it when you're ready to publish.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_00: To download Vellum for free and give it a shot, you can go to trivellum.com slash daily.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: That's trivellum.com slash daily.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_00: Give it a try.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_00: I'd love to hear what you think about it.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: Well, hey, my friend, as always, thanks for hanging around with me on this episode.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: Whether you are driving or maybe you're in your home office or you're out for a run or a bike ride or whatever you're doing.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: Hope that you have a safe and productive and really, really amazing day.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: As always, thanks for listening, and I'll see you next time.