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562: #562 Jason Flom with Rafael Madrigal · Wrongful Conviction Podcasts

• 00:00:02 Speaker 1: I've never been in trouble in my life. I didn't even have a parking ticket, you know what I mean. I was brought up like cops are the good guys. 00:00:09 Speaker 2: I didn't know what was going to happen, but I do know that everything was stacked against me. Everything like everything this isn't supposed to happen this way. I'm innocent. I know I'm innocent. 00:00:23 Speaker 3: I know I had nothing to do with this. 00:00:25 Speaker 1: How is this possible? 00:00:28 Speaker 3: I grew up trusting the systems. I grew up believing that every human being should do the right thing. And that's why, even though I knew I was dealing with Coore other people, I wasn't going to break anyone to get me out of prison because I wouldn't live with the fact that I break my way out of my wife's death. 00:00:44 Speaker 2: I'm not innocent, too proven guilty. I'm guilty until I prove my innocence. And that's absolutely what happened to me. 00:00:51 Speaker 3: Our system. 00:00:51 Speaker 4: Since I've been out ten years, it's coming a little ways, but it's still broken. 00:00:56 Speaker 3: I totally little trusting humanity after what's happened to me. 00:01:02 Speaker 1: This is wrongful conviction. 00:01:22 Speaker 5: Welcome back to wrongful conviction with Jason Flamm that's me, And today I have an extraordinary person as my guest, a man named Rafael Madrigal. 00:01:32 Speaker 1: Raphael, welcome to the show. Good and Raphael. 00:01:37 Speaker 5: You know I often say it, I'm going to say to you, I'm happy you're here, but i'm sorry you're here because there's absolutely no excuse for what happened to you. And as a member of as an American and as a human, I apologize to you on behalf of everyone because this this story, it literally makes no sense whatsoever. 00:01:57 Speaker 1: Are you know better than anyone and I and. 00:02:01 Speaker 5: I want to get into all those details because your story has so many things that we see again and again right. It has mistaken eye witness identification. It has an incompetent defense attorney. It has an air tight alibi that anybody in you know, any with any degree of sanity or education or knowledge of justice with nobody could have possibly convicted you based on those factors. But we're going to unravel all of that and find out how you got charged with first degree murder and how you got exonerated as we go along. 00:02:33 Speaker 1: But before we do that, let's go back, like at a. 00:02:36 Speaker 5: Time, machine to when you were a kid. Where where did did you grow up in California? 00:02:40 Speaker 4: Yes? I did. I grew up in Los Angeles. 00:02:43 Speaker 5: So was it a difficult childhood or a happy family life? 00:02:47 Speaker 1: What? 00:02:47 Speaker 5: What can you paint a picture for us to the audience? What what was it like growing up? 00:02:51 Speaker 4: Actually it was a more lifestyle. Yeah, it was in a rough neighborhood, but I mean my early teen years, I mean it was just the bigger neighborhood. Everybody was going on and you know, trying to find themselves. But later on, if we started getting older, then yeah, things started changing. You know. It wasn't rough neighborhood. A lot of gang violence around, and as the nineties started hitting many, I started getting a little bit worse and worse and worse as time went along, you know. But as myself, I mean, I made the best of it. I graduated from high school. I got a job right after high school. College wasn't for me. I tried it for about a year, and I think, you know what, college is going to follow me? So you know, I decided, you know what, I think I read the work and being that I was already going to be a farther at nineteen. Then you know, I knew my responsibility and. 00:03:42 Speaker 5: That's and both of those things you just mentioned are important parts of your story. Right, The fact that you did become a father very young, and we know what this wrongful incarceration took from you. We're going to discuss that. But also the fact that you did start working very young is an important thing as your story goes. Was along because of the fact that in your alibi, what made it so air tight, I mean, I was gonna say bulletproof, you know, is the fact that you were a highly skilled person who was the only person that could operate the machinery at your job, which meant that, you know, there's no way you could have committed this crime fifty miles away when you were the only guy there that knew how to do what you were doing, and the whole factory would have shut down, right, So the whole operation was so But let's get into that by way of this crime, right, because it was I mean, this sounds like it was a hit, right, I mean, this was a this was a shooting. 00:04:40 Speaker 1: Can you can you explain the crime itself? 00:04:42 Speaker 5: Obviously you weren't there, but you're super familiar with there was a guy named Aguilera, right correct. 00:04:46 Speaker 4: The victim his name was ricordagu I mean I ended up seeing him when he came as a fighting court, But other than that, I've never had seen the gentleman. 00:04:54 Speaker 1: You know. 00:04:55 Speaker 4: It wasn't dry by shooting. It was a game that was going on at the time cloth one list. You know, I was forty five miles away from the incident, you know, nowhere near it, and I was still put in a situation where I lost ten years of my life. 00:05:12 Speaker 5: Well how did and and you were senced to twenty five to life, which is I mean unimaginable to think of how that must have you know, just devastated you. But how did your name come up in the first place when you so obviously weren't there and you could prove it. And who was it that first? I know there were witnesses that identified you, but how did they even come to bring your name up? 00:05:37 Speaker 1: Did you ever find out how that happened? 00:05:39 Speaker 4: Or it all started off with the picture that this Los Angeles sheriff had on myself. The picture had took me when I was I had just turned sixteen years old at the time of the crime. I was twenty five already, So they used that picture to show the witnesses and the victim, and they all started with one of the witnesses maid that I resembled the shooter. 00:06:02 Speaker 5: Okay, wait a minute now, first of all, wait, wait, let's go back. Let's go back for a second. So, Raphael, you were sixteen when your picture was taken. 00:06:09 Speaker 4: Great? 00:06:10 Speaker 5: Is it even appropriate for that picture to still even be in the books? Isn't that supposed to be sealed after you turn eighteen? 00:06:16 Speaker 4: I'm not sure. I don't know how exactly that works, or is any law that prohibits them from using the almost a ten year old picture? 00:06:25 Speaker 1: And what was the original? Sorry? 00:06:27 Speaker 5: Interrupted, but why was your picture in the book in the first place? What we what were you picked up for when? And I don't judge anything because I know where you grew up, as a lot of people get picked up for a lot of things, they do the sweeps and everything else. And you know, we've had people talk about how they were almost tricked into having their pictures taken and put into the mug Shot book when they were just barely teenagers. And it's also sort of ridiculous to point out that you were they were using a nine year old can imagine how much your appearance changes from sixteen to twenty five. But yeah, so why was your picture in the book in the first place? 00:07:00 Speaker 4: A picture that I said it was taken when I was sixteen, when they were in front of my house and gang unit ended up swooping by and everybody that was there inside my house. They pulled us home out and they took pictures of us and they went on their way. Never did I imagine in my life that that picture would come in hunt me almost ten years later. 00:07:20 Speaker 5: So, yeah, so you were literally doing nothing, standing around in front of your own house and they took a picture that ended up actually turning your life completely upside down for the most random of reasons. And we'll get into that too. The fact is that we know that there are ways to improve eyewitness identification procedures, including the fact that I'm guessing in your case, like in most cases, they were using six pictures on that page in the Mugshot book. And you know, decades of research have now proven scientifically that the human mind, if you give it that many options, will go towards somebody that sort of resembles a little bit. They'll start you'll start to make up things subconsciously that don't even that aren't real because you see all these different pictures. So by making the simple change of putting one picture per page, we know that the incidents of wrongful identifications go down by around fifty percent. So that's the change that we're trying to get made all over the country and in any case. So so I mean, this is this is an unbelievable thing. So you're now far away, have no idea what's going on somewhere in a police station in these Los Angeles, these witnesses, one of them randomly pickts your photo and then what happens. 00:08:36 Speaker 4: And then from there, I mean, the night marriages started from when the incident happened, I believe the incident took please and from there after the incidet I believe, they showed the pictures, the pictures to the nick to the witnesses, tell me about that to the witnesses, and fifteen days later after the incident, that's when I got picked up. I got picked up on anchel of twentieth. 00:09:00 Speaker 1: July the twenties. 00:09:01 Speaker 5: So paint this picture for us place, So you're July the twenties, where were you. 00:09:05 Speaker 4: July twenty, I had just dropped off my wife at work. I was because she went a little bit earlier than I did. I dropped lass at work, I was heading back home to get ready myself. And when I was driving into I used to live in a Culdsfec at the time. When I was driving in, I noticed that there was a bunch of a shelf deputy patrol cars on the side of the street and they were all putting under gear. And uh, I see them. I said, Oh, they're going to give somebody a rude awakening right now. Little did I know they were going to my house. 00:09:31 Speaker 1: And you. 00:09:32 Speaker 5: I read an article about you in San Francisco magazine where you were talking about how you were literally, I'm going to quote you. You said, I was literally living in the American dream and then I got everything pulled out from under my feet. 00:09:45 Speaker 1: You had two kids at this point, your. 00:09:46 Speaker 5: Wife was pregnant, You had a good job, right, so life was looking pretty pretty damn good. 00:09:53 Speaker 4: Right, Yeah, I mean literally, I had we had just thirty had been a year ago. We had bought on in a house, so I mean, I mean, therefore we were striving for it. The fire own house and retired paint where so I mean we put we put our nesteak together and everything that we have saved up for we eased to move. But little did we know that, I mean, this nightmare was going to start at night of twenty year. 00:10:16 Speaker 5: So you had two boys six and three and a little girl on the way and then you get picked up taken in for questioning. I assume right, and explain it, explain that process. 00:10:27 Speaker 4: Well. The funny point is when I when I see that take the sales patrol course in the coulda sat. I came to the stop sign and they had a picture of me, a blown up picture that they were going to my house with. So when I got to the stop sign, one of the deputies that had the picture, it happened to me he had the pie was looking at the picture at the time when I turned around and I looked at and relactizing to each other, and he drew his weapon on me and he yelled at him trying to get off my map. So yeah, sure enough, they got me off the van, and they said the first one who tell me all, they need to talk to you down the station. So I tell them all of this here because they need to talk to me, and he said, you know what, they'll explain to you a little bit more. Well, from there, they took me to the station. They put me in a vat outside of the station and they left me there for it. I say, m good, four hours So what reason? I'm not sure, but I was here that for four hours. Follows lady put me inside the whole treat and I ask again, who needs to talk to me? What do we need to talk to me about? And they said, oh, you know what, they'll talk to you. They'll talk to you. That whole day went through, nobody came to talk to me. Uh. Finally there was two other inmates in the cell next to me when the detective involved in my case can't talk to them, and I asked them, Hey, who's going to talk to me? And he says, you know what, wait to turn, I'll talk to you in that time. So I told him, I'm looking at you. You're I'm gonna talk to me now. Let me know, I'm going to bail out because I got to go to work. And his words to me where, you know what, I'm gonna give you some advice. Save your money because you're gonna need it. 00:11:57 Speaker 1: Who said that to you one? The need to take you in my case, now you're there. 00:12:02 Speaker 5: First of all, this I'm trying to process this whole idea of sitting for four hours in a van, not knowing what's going on, just like just left there. No, I mean, it's got to be a terrifying thing in and of itself. But okay, So now finally they come and talk to you and they tell you you're being charged with first degree murdered. 00:12:19 Speaker 4: Yeah. No, actually no, they didn't come back to me. It wasn't into my arrangement because I got to rest them on a Thursday morning. I got arranged on Monday morning. The following week. When I went into my arrangement that seem to take they came to talk to me and he asked me but my co defendant, and he asked me, when was the last thing you seen him? 00:12:35 Speaker 1: Right? 00:12:35 Speaker 5: And this is an important point because the co defendant ultimately testifies that you were not involved. 00:12:40 Speaker 6: Right. 00:12:40 Speaker 4: No, he didn't testify to it. What it was was that there was a tape recording from the county jail. Because me and me and my co defendant, I was first enough to tell me who did this? I know I have nothing to do with this. Somebody else was with you, and he just got like very upset because I was questioning them, and I told me, you know what, I'm he'll be here this. I have nothing to do with this. So me and him got into a real big argument and we ended up video to a fight. Two days later, his girlfriend came and visited him in the county jail. Well, when his girlfriend came to visit him, he had a black guy and his girlfriend started question and what's going on with you? What's going on with you? And said jail. So he told us, you know what, I'm gonna tell you the children that's going on. You know what, Ralph has nothing to do with this. He's asking around who was involved. And I told him to stand up his business and he needs to keep this his questions to himself and he shouldn't have nobody else asking about this clime. 00:13:35 Speaker 1: And that was that was that was said. 00:13:38 Speaker 4: That yes, that was O. And originally when the tape recording came to life, they had told my my my attorney that it was me in the in the tamp recording confess to the crime. So, uh, right before a travel he said, we got a tape recording was this confession to the crime. We didn't use it. So when my attorney asked me about this recording, I said, look at Andrew's names. That understand. I said, look at from the day that I hired. I told you I had nothing to do with this. I'm not going to change up on you. I still stand one hundred percent that I have nothing to do with this. So he teld me, Okay, you know what, We're going to ask for an extension and I'm going to listen to the recordings and we'll come back in a month. So a month later, we come back and I asked him what happened to recordings? We doesn't know what. Don't worry about it. There's nothing in that can help you, and there's nothing in there that can hurt you. 00:14:27 Speaker 5: None of that makes any sense. So first of all, let me backtrack. Were you out on bail or you and were you locked up this whole time? 00:14:34 Speaker 4: Well? I was locked up this whole time because originally, when I went for my arrangement, my bill was at thirty thousand. When I went to my arrangement, they raised my bill from thirty kundred dollars to two million. 00:14:44 Speaker 5: Dollars two million, So they didn't want you going anywhere and correct. And this attorney who we know, made a series of mistakes that are literally out This is the only word I can think of to explain. 00:15:04 Speaker 1: The nature the. 00:15:07 Speaker 5: So many of them and so egregious that any law student would have been able to handle this case better than he did. Obviously, this was a quarter pointed attorney. 00:15:15 Speaker 4: I'm assuming No, actually he was a private attorney. 00:15:18 Speaker 5: Wow, So this was a private attorney. I mean, was he Do you have any theory as to what was wrong with him in terms of was why why was he so ill suited for this job? 00:15:34 Speaker 1: Like? 00:15:34 Speaker 5: What was there something going on in his personal life? Was there some did you ever find out? 00:15:40 Speaker 4: No? Actually, you know what when when my family first hired him, I mean he talked a real good story to my family, said, you know what, I'm going to get home and I'm going to prove his innocence. And I mean he just said everything that you'll be said. But as time was going by and postponement of post it's like his whole demeanor just change, like you know, like he just literally gave it up on the kiss. Because of the almost three years that I spent in the county jail fighting this case. One time he came within me. That was when when my family hired him. After that, never again did he come and see me, ask me questions, nothing. It was just I would only see him and would go to court. 00:16:21 Speaker 1: He came to see you one time in three years. In three years, Oh my god. You know, this is so it's so outrageous, and it's amazing too. You know. 00:16:30 Speaker 5: I'm just finishing reading the amazing book by Anthony ray. 00:16:33 Speaker 1: Hinton called The Sun Does Shine. 00:16:36 Speaker 5: How I Found Life and Freedom on Death Row by Anthony ray Hinton with Lara lov Harden, and in it he talks about Brian Stevenson, the legendary attorney who would visit him on death row over fifteen years, like incredible in a remote prison in Alabama, and here it is like one time in three years. I like, I'm you know, I'm so angry at this whole thing. It's like I can't process how that could even be. And then in the meantime he also made like mistakes that are unimaginable in terms of the idea that you had a tape recording. I'm just reflecting on this, right you had a tape recording with the actual perpetrator saying that you his co defendant, wasn't there and and he he couldn't even work with that, Like he couldn't even and he's telling you that the tape recording doesn't matter, and then he doesn't bring it up at court, among other things, right, because I'm not stopping there. I mean the idea that during the trial he was unable to he did well, he wasn't unable. He didn't call your coworker who would have testified and said. 00:17:42 Speaker 1: That it was impossible for you to have. 00:17:44 Speaker 5: Committed this crime since, as I said earlier in the podcast, the whole you were the only guy there that could operate the machinery, and we know that the machinery was operating, and we know that you were You were there, you were clocked in, you were I mean, it's just mine by how you know how this could have transpired the way it did and you lived it. So so I want to get to this so it finally comes to the trial. It took three years to get to trial. 00:18:27 Speaker 4: Yeah, about two and a half years, which. 00:18:29 Speaker 1: Is crazy in itself. 00:18:31 Speaker 5: And meanwhile, your kids are growing up without their father, your wife is in the situation of trying to figure out how to make ends meet, which I know that ultimately she had to move out of the house that your dream house, because I mean, who can raise three kids and work a job, and I mean it's you know, and in the meantime she's left with the task of trying to explain to the kids. I'm sure they're asking, when's daddy coming home? Right, I mean, it's just it's so I mean, it's so much. It's just so much. So you finally come to trial, and by the time you got to trial, now, I mean you've got to be almost a basket case by this point. 00:19:10 Speaker 4: I'm literally just I mean, words wouldn't even baber explain it. And just the worst part about it was that the doubt was there from the beginning year for the prosecution. Keep in mind, I went through Ford justic attorneys. It wasn't intil the fourth one that decided to take you to trial. The first three came in. I mean the first one, mister Dan Baker, which was the top gang prosecutor in Los Angeles County at the time. He came and he told my attorney at the time, you know what, I have an offer for him. My offer for him is twenty five with life. That's the only thing that will offer him, you know. A year later he leaves the case. They bring another prosecutor in from another city and he comes in the same way. You know what. There's no deals, there's no deals. Finally, when he's up, maybe about ten months into the case, he says, you know what, I might have a deal for you. We'll see how that turns out. The following month he was off the case. They bought another gentleman from the city of Compton. He was on the case for a month. He let the case go. They finally brought in This is Ramibors Marie Remiors, which is the one that finally took me to trial, and she's the one that finally convicted me, you know. 00:20:24 Speaker 5: And my team was, yeah, Raf, where you tried, If it's okay if I call you Ralf. Were you tried together with all of ours or separately? 00:20:33 Speaker 4: No? Together? 00:20:36 Speaker 5: But he didn't take the stand, and you had the tape recording. But the lawyer didn't bother to tell anybody about this tape recording where he was admitting that you weren't there. 00:20:45 Speaker 4: Exactly. It's like the stay recording. The prosecution is the one that brought them to light. But at the end, nobody used them. And when we when we got our appeal granted, and we came to the federal courthouse and he asked mister Stein about the tape recording. All he responded was, you know what, I think my secretary listened to them. 00:21:06 Speaker 5: Wow, my secretary listened to them. Doesn't that say at all? 00:21:10 Speaker 1: Right? 00:21:12 Speaker 5: That that is what's so nuts to me is that there that there are people in this less justice system I call it sometimes in justice system that are so cavalier about someone's life, because in your case, it really was your life. I mean, twenty five to life is a life sentence. Let's face it. I mean there's when twenty five to life sentence as a twenty five year old man, you're basically looking at spending the rest of your life behind bars. And this guy had his secretary listen to the recording. Okay, that's I'm just gonna think about this for a second. So when you went to trial, by now, you I mean, I'm assuming you had lost faith in your attorney, had did you consider it firing him, hiring somebody else? 00:21:58 Speaker 4: Well, I really did a system of what you could and can do. It was my first time in being in a position like this. Keep in mind, I have never been arrested soon, I have never been turned before. So I was lost. You know, my only guidance was my attorney. 00:22:14 Speaker 5: Right, and you and you want to have you want to have faith in him at this point, I'm assuming because you need to have faith in somebody or something, and he's your advocate, he's your champion. 00:22:24 Speaker 1: But when you went to trial, did you feel like, how can I say this? 00:22:33 Speaker 5: Did you feel like you were going to be exonerated? I mean, at this point the system had already you know, shown you it's its worst sides. So but but still you knew you were innocent. So what was your like going in to the court room finally after all these years or two and a half years, three years? Did you feel like you were going to be exonerated? Or you were you like, oh, you know they've got me and that's going to be it. 00:22:59 Speaker 7: No, know, I I like, honestly, I never did my faith in the truth. 00:23:05 Speaker 4: I was always under the impression, you know, one sec of the trial, I'm going to. 00:23:08 Speaker 7: Be able to pull my innocent I'm going to prove it. And the trial masted two days deliberations, ris and lot of it in the childhood deliberation was on four days. And they kept on and they kept on coming back. The jury kept on coming back to pursuing my alibi. So the doubt was there from the beginning. There wasn't the doubt just to the jury. 00:23:26 Speaker 3: It was. 00:23:27 Speaker 7: It was there for the beginning, even with the prosecution. 00:23:30 Speaker 1: But here's another thing. 00:23:32 Speaker 5: As I was reading and rereading your story, I was thinking, you're sitting there next to your lawyer. He's not calling your alibi witness. Uh, from the I don't know what the guy's name was. From the factory or was it a factory, or or what was the place that you were working at? 00:23:49 Speaker 1: What was it called? 00:23:51 Speaker 4: It was it was a manufacturing company. 00:23:56 Speaker 5: And what was the name of the guy who never was called that should have been called, that could have act. Actually, you know, absolutely without any doubt, established your your alibi as being factual. 00:24:07 Speaker 4: That was my manager of Bob Howard's. 00:24:09 Speaker 1: Was he in the courtroom, No, he was never in the courtroom. 00:24:14 Speaker 4: Actually he got to the court room and to my understanding, by attorney told him that he was not going to be called to testified, but he did show up. 00:24:22 Speaker 5: Did you at any point say to your attorney, where is Bob Howard? Why isn't he here? Why aren't you calling him to the stand? 00:24:30 Speaker 4: No, I mean I was. 00:24:31 Speaker 6: My head was just just so lost when I kept on just hearing how the prosecution kept on just making me look like this animal, you know. 00:24:43 Speaker 4: And even when the victim himself got up in the standing, they asked him, do you see the person who shot who shot you here today in this court room. The gentleman said, the person who shot me, he's not here. He wasn't lying, He was never lying. He was saying the truth. But what would make that bad was that right after he got understand, was that they put to take to the move, understand, and they asked him to take to the move. Why do you feel a missie Aguilla is saying that the person who shot him is not here? So his comments were, oh, well, he feels he doesn't want to be label to snitch, he doesn't want to be labeled to rap, he doesn't want any repercussions. But it was never that the gentleman was saying the truth the person that shot him was not important. 00:25:30 Speaker 5: I'm again trying to figure. I'm trying to put myself inside the mind of the jury, because even with such even with such a I mean, inadequate is not a strong enough word, but even with such an incompetent, disinterested, even still with that alone, you would think that the jury would go well, okay, I guess that's it, you know. And obviously they thought long and hard before they finally decided what they decided and and sentenced you to to this this terrible uh, this terrible term in prison. So that moment must have been the worst moment of your life. I mean, I can't imagine anything worse. When the jury came back in, did they look at you? Was your family in the courtroom? Can you was it hot? 00:26:18 Speaker 1: Was it cold? Do you remember? Can you paint the picture for us of what that was like? 00:26:25 Speaker 4: And I remember it clearly, like it was yesterday. It was almost days in for the jury, and I was under the impression it was I believe a flighting. They were gonna just bring us back on Monday. The bailiff called called us in from the from the holding tank decision, and when I think they came back with the verdict, three o'clock to me thirty in the afternoon, and I remember my pums were sweating so bad, and I don't know if it was hot and narrow it was cold. I was. I was nervous, you know, And the jury came back and just hearing those words, you know, when we find the defending guilty, it's like if I had the world on my shoulders at the time, the world just came crashing down on me. 00:27:06 Speaker 5: And you can't help thinking, oh, sorry, go ahead, Ralph. 00:27:11 Speaker 4: I mean it was just then turning along fee my family and just everybody breaking down trying because they knew the truth. I mean, nobody better than my family knew the truth. And them hearing the word's guilty as like they just took the air out of their ownness. 00:27:31 Speaker 5: And I can't help thinking that the fact that it was the weekend coming up and the jury didn't want to have to come back or be I don't know if they were sequestered, but that probably played a role inside that room of them saying you know what, maybe there was one or two holdouts and they finally said, you know what, this weekend and Monday, I gotta go to work whatever. 00:27:50 Speaker 1: And so for anybody who's listening. 00:27:52 Speaker 5: I always say, please, if you get called for jury duty, first of all, show up. I know it's annoying, it's difficult, it's in a position on all of our life. 00:28:00 Speaker 1: Show up, serve on a jury. 00:28:03 Speaker 5: Pay attention, and remember that somebody like Raphael is hanging in the balance. His whole life is hanging in the balance. When you're sitting there, and you know, it's all of our duty to our fellow citizens, so orofellow human beings that we give it, you know, all the attention that it deserves, and that we remember that these mistakes happen as often as they do, and you're living proof of it. So you're now convicted a sense to twenty five years to life. The worst thing that could possibly happen, you go to prison. I guess I want to get to the I want to get to the good part, right, the exoneration and what's happening now. But if you can tell us during those see you had been waiting almost three years for the trial, and you were in for another almost seven in a maximum security prison. And was that as bad as everyone is imagining it to be? Was there anything? Was there any bright spot in that whole time you were there. What was the best and the worst aspect of that entire miserable time of seven years. And then again this is in adding because you were in almost ten but the seven years inside prison after you had been tried and convicted, you. 00:29:16 Speaker 4: Know, I could honestly say the best point of those of those ten years was coming across Eric Moltop, which was the attorney who originally contacted the California interspodseet. Mister Moltop was referred to me by my state appointed appeal attorney, Laura Seaffer. And when Laura Seaffer got my case originally after I got sentenced, you know, she was very honest with me. She told me the way it was, the system works. She says, Looking, you got to understand, we're state appointed appeal attorneys. They don't pay us to do extra labors. They just pay us to do push PayPal fore days. You know. But after going through your case, you're not supposed to be here. And I told him, you know what, I know, I'm not supposed to be here. And she went as far as telling them, but you know what, you're gonna have to get a private attorney to be able to help you out. And she referred me to the gentleman Eric moltip out of No Valley, California. And this gentleman from the beginning when he got a hold of my case, he contacted me and within a month a month and a half, I want to say, he wrote me a letter and he explained to me, He goes, look, I read your case already. I don't know what you're doing in prison. You know, we need to get you home. And from there he got the bone rolling. He started investigating. And the first thing that I call him when he came to visit me, I told him, Eric, the only thing I need you to do is because I have never listened to the tape recordings. I asked him, please listen to the tape recording to send being there. It always stood in the back of my mind, there has to be since there. And he goes, okay, you know where I'm gonna listen to him. 00:30:56 Speaker 1: I kid you not. 00:30:57 Speaker 4: Maybe within a month he went back to the prisoners in the game and he asked me, is that you and the tape recordings. I said, look, Errett, I haven't listened to them. I don't know what's in them. So he brought a copy of tape recordings and he played it, and as soon as the first work came out of the tape recording, I told him that's Francisco. I recognized his voice immediately. He says, are you sure? I said, look at them, one hundred percent sure, that's Francisco and Waters on the tape recordings. And that's what just got the ball rolling. We're able to admit the tape recordings back in todment because originally the prosecutions prosecution is the one that you have brought them out to light, but they were never used. So it goes you know what, I got to get this back in there. And sure enough, that was one of the key things that the magistrate in the Federal appeals court asked, why were these tape recorders never used in his defense? 00:31:49 Speaker 5: It's a damn good question. And it was newly discovered evidence at that point as well, which is great. 00:31:54 Speaker 1: So okay, so let's fast forward. 00:31:57 Speaker 5: Now what must have been maybe other than the to your kids or I don't know, but it must have been the happiest. 00:32:02 Speaker 1: Day of your life, which is the day that you were. 00:32:04 Speaker 5: Back in court. How did you get end up getting exonerated? 00:32:07 Speaker 1: Released? 00:32:07 Speaker 5: And must have been like this million pound weight has lifted off your shoulders now, So can you explain that right? 00:32:12 Speaker 4: Well, the flip side is that we first had a file of motion FORVID injury hearing and we got that advent hearing granted. So I was brought from prison back down to Orange County where the evidence your hearing was going to take place. So during that evident you're hearing, we were able to call my attorney who represented me, we put him on a stand, and we were able to bring mister Bob Howards and put him on the stand, so, I mean all the pieces that were missing at the trial. We put him in front of the fell of the courthouse and that's what was able to bring the light. So once we got mister Stein under Stein on the stand and he was able to just literally deny everything that he did and also put mister how I was understanding him, admit you know what he was at work. I'm one hundred percent positlyn to use at work. There's no way he could have been gone. You know. That's what took turn bottom. This was in October. In June of two thousand and nine, my appeal was granted. 00:33:18 Speaker 5: I mean, how did you feel. What were you freed from the courtroom. Explain the whole thing, because this is my favorite part of the show, right, the good part. 00:33:27 Speaker 4: Right. Well, the next day, all that day, I just slep all night. Literally I slipped not one hour of shady. The next morning, I'm thinking, Okay, they're going to come me early in the morning. Then they're gonna walk me out seven o'clock, eight o'clock. Let there, finally winning the Tipitis came the to my cell and said, you know, we'll get your stuff ready. I got to take you down to our which is receiving a release. And he told me, oh, your Turney is supposed to be here to pick you up at eleven o'clock. But if he's not here, we have to that you go those that's the court order. So eleven o'clock came and they walked me to the gate and mister Eric Moltop was there waiting for me. You know, it was it was an unexplainable relief happiness. I don't know if there was just a bunch of emotions going through me. 00:34:18 Speaker 7: You know, my dad just passed away eight months. 00:34:21 Speaker 4: Earlier, so it was it was just a bunch of things going through my mind. You know, how was I going to get back into society? What was I going to do? You know, it's just a minute things going through your mind. I get home, man, there's a bunch of camera that was waiting for me, my family. I mean literally, it was the best day of my life. The only bad plub about it in there My dad wasn't there waiting for me. 00:34:53 Speaker 5: I want to talk about something else that's really important in your case. And I know we don't have a lot of timele left, but you were ultimately fully exonerated, conviction, reverse charges dropped, declared. 00:35:04 Speaker 1: Actually innocent. Is that right? 00:35:06 Speaker 4: That's correct? 00:35:07 Speaker 5: And so it's amazing Ralph, because I've been doing this work for twenty five twenty six years now, and I talk about it all the time, no matter where I am, I'm always talking about it. And I tell these stories about your case, about all these different cases that I know, because it drives me crazy. And the first question everybody asks me is did he get Did the person the man or woman the exgonery? Did they get compensated? So the first thing everybody wants to know. Their eyes get real wide, they say did the guy get? I hope they get and I have to tell them, well, it's not what you think. And you're living proof of that, right because you have gone through almost like another trial. It really it is another trial, just trying to get what's due for you. And in California the compensation statute, and I'm working on getting it fixed. But it's so crazy. Can you explain that a little bit? Because most people think you get out, they send you a check. Hey man, sorry, we've messed up your life, like, uh, you know, let me give you a little way. 00:36:08 Speaker 1: To get started here, you know, But that's not the way it is. 00:36:11 Speaker 4: It's actually the total opposite. I mean California. And it's sadly saying that California, up until recently, their whole exonerate exoneration passive was never there. I mean, the gates open for you, and you know, there's no apology, there's no, like you said, a check waiting for you. There's nothing waiting for you. It's their opening and they just kick you out into the world. You know, I've been out. As a matter of fact, it's been nine years. On Saturday, October of six, it's been my nine year anniversary that I've been home. 00:36:45 Speaker 1: Happy birthday, Happy University. 00:36:48 Speaker 4: Up until now, I haven't seen any type of help from the State of California. I've been to hearings after hearing, and every time we go with it's like on the trail because you have these people on the board who are more into denying you, not the compensation, but the truth, denying you. They keep on denying the truth, you know, for what reason, I don't know. I don't know what holds them back from saying, you know what, a mistake was made here, we have to fix it. But up until this date, nobody, nobody in the state of California has said, you know what we done, these people wrong, we have to fix it. And I'm not the only one. There's several individual Exanna Revees that are here in California where I haven't been compensated. They're in the same situation that I'm in. They've been fighting for their compensation for six, seven, eight, nineteen years. 00:37:43 Speaker 5: No I know, and I've read some of those stories and it's really horrible, including some that have ended up going back to prison just because they haven't been able to support themselves because they're facing the same thing that you're facing, which is that coming out and having to tell their prospective employer that they have a conviction even though it was overturned, and then they're either not getting hired or getting fired from the jobs that they know that they should have. I think as a society, we have to open our hearts and minds, and we have to open our companies. I talked to CEOs and other people in positions of power that run. 00:38:18 Speaker 1: Big companies about this all the time. 00:38:20 Speaker 5: I think there's a lot more openness to this now, to this concept that we need to give people a second chance, innocent or guilty, but particularly if you're innocent, to get back on their feet. 00:38:31 Speaker 1: And yet people like. 00:38:36 Speaker 5: Kenneth Foley is a classic example, right, who was convicted of armed robbery ninety five cents to twenty five years to life and exonerated in two thousand and seven, and then denied compensation and couldn't get a job and ultimately had PTSD and all these other things that ended up with a fifteen year cents for a vehicular manslaughter because he was high on drugs or whatever it was. I mean, it's a tragedy on top of a tragedy. So it's amazing to staydy is willing to pay all this money to keep you locked up, but they're not willing to pay anything to help you when you get out. 00:39:05 Speaker 1: It's so strange. What do you and and Rob? 00:39:10 Speaker 5: It's like to me, it seems like the people sitting on that board their job should be to figure out how to get you this money and how to help you manage it once you do get it. That would be the job of that board. If I was running it, I would say, Okay, let's make sure that not only are you going to get it, but you're going to know how to invest it. We're going to show you how to you know, I mean because a lot of people in your situation coming out and what you were actually successful businessman already, but many people are not and this is their first experience having a lump sum of money. 00:39:38 Speaker 1: So how would you fix this? Because it's crazy. 00:39:41 Speaker 5: You're literally having to prove your innocence again after a judge and a jury and a prosecutor everybody else has decided you're innocent. How would you fix the system? What do you think it should be? 00:39:53 Speaker 4: Well, I think the first thing off the top, it makes no sense to me for you to put a prosecutor on the compensation board. I mean, to me, that's the number one biggest mistake they could do. You know, a prosecutor to me, will always be a prosecutor no matter how you look at it. You know, he's never going to go against other prosecutors who probably convicted you and they know for a fact you were innocent. There is a situation that happened in my in my, in my situation. You know, mister Mike Cromwolls, who was no longer on the board, but I mean this here, Never once did he even take the time to say, you know what, I have an innocent individual here and suddenly, what am I going to do fix this problem? Instead, he was up on that seat being a prosecutor. He questioned me so much in regards to what took place twenty years ago, instead of focusing on, you know, we have an individual years That was the case with him. 00:41:04 Speaker 5: It's important to recognize that there are thirty one states that have compensation statues in nineteen that have none, and even then in some of those states it's only you have to have a DNA proof or you have to have this or that. It's not a streamline system like it should be. I think to me, once you're proven innocent and you're out, there should be there's like in Texas, there should be a very ironically, Texas has the best system. 00:41:26 Speaker 1: You get eighty thousand per year. 00:41:28 Speaker 5: For every year you in you get an annuity, and sort of ironic that Texas, which most people would think would have one of the worst systems, actually has one of the best. 00:41:38 Speaker 1: I know why that is. 00:41:39 Speaker 5: It's thanks to Rodney Ellis, who was a state senator who passed a bill that really changed it, turned it upside down. And we need to do the same thing in California. And there are a lot of you should know, there are a lot of good people working on it, and I'm going to be helping to lead this charge to fix it for you and for everyone else like you, because it's absolutely it's disgusting in my opinion that you are now having to fight. And by the way, not only is it as you said, it's the opposite of what it should be because on top of everything else, you have to make time in your life, which you have enough obligations with three kids, work, struggling everything else, to go and appear in all these different hearings and everything else. It's ridiculous. There should just be a check in the mailbox for you with your name on it that says, hey, good luck, sorry this happened to you, you know, looking forward to seeing you succeed moving forward. Hope this helps something like that, You know what I mean. But man, it's really I think it's so important that you're here and talking about this because that problem has to get fixed, and it has to get fixed at the highest levels, right And I think I'm going to be I'm going to be keeping in touch with you, if it's all right, because I'm going to call on you maybe to have some meetings with some you know, people in positions of power who can who can make these changes, because I believe if if the people that make these decisions are made aware, which is why it's so important that you're here, they're going to want to fix this because it's it's just it just doesn't make any sense. But I just think people aren't really focused on it. So the more attention we can bring, the better it's going to be, obviously for you and everybody else. 00:43:20 Speaker 1: So before before. 00:43:22 Speaker 5: We have to wrap up, I wanted to ask you one more question. There was actually two more questions. One question, how how is your How are your kids doing? 00:43:30 Speaker 4: My kids are doing great, thank god. You know. My oldest Andrew, he's twenty four. He has about one more year, about a year and a half left a Long Beach State to complete the major. My second oldest, he just gotta to accept this letter to Long be State and one to Keelsetate Folish and also so I mean, family wise, I cannot complete one bit. You know. I thank god that I came out, that my wife done such a great job with them in those ten years. She you know, guided them in the right direction. And now these kids are open and they're they're leading a good life. 00:44:11 Speaker 5: It's amazing. That's really an amazing testament to them. And like you said to your wife, because to grow up in that situation without their dad and and to be able to, you know, take that adversity and turn it into they can call it triumph because it sounds like they're they're they're knocking it out of the park. I mean, they're they're doing amazing and that's and it's also it's also a tribute to you. I mean, you obviously have had a tremendously positive influence on them. So you know I wish, I wish you and them all the best and everything that you deserve before we go, and I know you have to run, but I always like to end the show the same way, which is that I like to This is I think everyone's favorite part of the show. When I stopped talking, and I just first of all want to thank you again for being here taking time. I'm out of your schedule to share your story with the audience here on Wronfel Conviction. And now I'm going to turn it over to you just for any last thoughts that you want to share about anything. So the microphone is yours, and thank you again for being here. 00:45:14 Speaker 4: Thank you well. I just want to take the time more than anything to thank my family and my wife, my kids, my mom, my dad who was no longer with me, but I mean all my thanks goes to him because he was one of the ones always in the front right with me fighting for this. I also want to think Justin and all of the California Indusry Project, Eric Moltop. 00:45:38 Speaker 7: Eric Moltop was the. 00:45:39 Speaker 4: Key piece to exonerating me, to getting me home, you know, and lesson, but at least you know, to those prosecutors and to take us out there. You know, if you're hearing me, you know, take the time to investigate your cases. Don't just look for a conviction. It's not right putting people in prison as in that command. You're not only destroying their life, but you're destroying many lives behind their their kids, their families, I mean, their parents. It just takes a toll on society itself. You know, I was one of the lucky ones who it only took ten years to his alrea. But there are gentlemen out there who were concentrated for twenty thirty years. Thirty years later, there's not a life out of here for you. You know, everything has changed. 00:46:30 Speaker 5: I think that's that's a great way to wrap up. I'm glad you brought up the California Innocence Project. I've had Justin on the podcast a couple of times, I think, and he is a huge source of inspiration for me and everybody in the movement. Of course, right now he's marching to Sacramento to deliver to deliver petitions for clemency on behalf of the California twelve. And he really is just a great, great man, And I want to encourage everyone to go to California Innocenceproject dot org. That's California Innocence Project dot org. Get involved, volunteer, donate, hold a fundraiser, do a bake sale, whatever your thing is. There's too many people in the same situation that Raphael was in and we need to go get them out. And uh and I will say to you now again, Raphael, and I'll never stop fighting. There's a there's a ton of good people who care about you and everyone else like you out there, so I know you got to get to work, so I'm not gonna hold you up anymore. But thanks again. I'm looking forward to meeting you in California the next time. And uh and and all my best to you and your family. Likewise, don't forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you get your podcasts. 00:47:54 Speaker 1: It really helps. 00:47:56 Speaker 5: And I'm a proud donor to the Innocence Project and I really hope you'll join me and supporting this very important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocentsproject dot org to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis the music in the show is by three time OSCAR nominated. 00:48:16 Speaker 1: Composer Jay Ralph. 00:48:17 Speaker 5: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number one