Latest / Wellness, Actually with Emily Oster & Perry Wilson, MD / Parenting Through Divorce: The ultimate "no option C"

Transcript

Parenting Through Divorce: The ultimate "no option C" · Wellness, Actually with Emily Oster & Perry Wilson, MD

0:00
Speaker 1: This is parent data. I'm Emily Oster. Divorce is among
0:08
Speaker 1: the hardest questions parents ask me.
0:12
Speaker 2: When people are thinking about splitting up with their spouse,
0:14
Speaker 2: particularly when they have children. It can feel like there
0:18
Speaker 2: are no good options. When you got married and you
0:22
Speaker 2: had kids, you didn't imagine this happening, and yet sometimes
0:28
Speaker 2: it isn't working. I've talked before in my newsletters and
0:33
Speaker 2: my books about the idea of there being no secret
0:35
Speaker 2: option C. Sometimes when we face a hard choice, option
0:41
Speaker 2: A doesn't seem good. Option B also doesn't seem good,
0:45
Speaker 2: and we wait around in the hopes that secret option
0:48
Speaker 2: C will arrive. But often there's no secret option C,
0:52
Speaker 2: and you.
0:53
Speaker 1: Have to move forward with A or B.
0:56
Speaker 2: Divorce can feel like the ultimate example of this. Saying
1:00
Speaker 2: may feel impossible, Leaving may also feel impossible, and yet
1:05
Speaker 2: you have to choose one of them. When I get
1:09
Speaker 2: questions like this, really hard, complicated, nuanced questions with no
1:15
Speaker 2: good answers, the person I always want to talk about them.
1:19
Speaker 1: With is Miranda Featherstone. Miranda is a social worker and
1:23
Speaker 1: a writer, and she.
1:25
Speaker 2: Is one of the most thoughtful people that I know.
1:28
Speaker 2: So I asked her to come on the podcast here
1:31
Speaker 2: and talk with me about divorce, talk about how to
1:34
Speaker 2: think about the impacts on kids, what the data says,
1:37
Speaker 2: and how she talks about this.
1:40
Speaker 1: In her practice.
1:42
Speaker 2: There are no answers here, but maybe in the course
1:44
Speaker 2: of our talk we can make these two impossible feeling
1:47
Speaker 2: options feel a little less impossible. After the break my
1:53
Speaker 2: conversation with Miranda Featherstone.
2:05
Speaker 1: So, Miranda, it's great to have you. Do you want
2:08
Speaker 1: to introduce yourself? Sure?
2:10
Speaker 3: So I'm a social worker and a writer and I
2:14
Speaker 3: live and work in Rhode Island, and most of my work,
2:18
Speaker 3: my social work has been with parents and children of
2:23
Speaker 3: all ages, and my writing is about related things parenting, grief, loss,
2:31
Speaker 3: stuff like that.
2:32
Speaker 1: Sex, sex. And you and I are friends, and you
2:35
Speaker 1: have written for parent Data about sex.
2:38
Speaker 2: That's a good topic. It's not today's topic. So today
2:41
Speaker 2: we're going to talk about divorce.
2:44
Speaker 1: Yes, So I want to sort.
2:46
Speaker 2: Of open with a question that I think we probably
2:49
Speaker 2: both get a lot, and I certainly I get a lot,
2:52
Speaker 2: which is some form of my marriage is on the rocks.
2:55
Speaker 2: Is it better for my kids to stick it out
2:57
Speaker 2: or should we split up? And before we get into
3:01
Speaker 2: talking about that, I think it's a couple of things
3:02
Speaker 2: we both wanted to say upfront. So the first is
3:06
Speaker 2: that for people who are in abusive relationships, this is
3:10
Speaker 2: a very different conversation and one where absolutely protecting yourself
3:16
Speaker 2: is the first thing, and we're going to put some
3:18
Speaker 2: resources in the show notes if those circumstances apply to you.
3:21
Speaker 2: And the second is that almost everything we're going to
3:23
Speaker 2: talk about today is very personal and specific, and so
3:26
Speaker 2: while we're going to talk in general about some of
3:28
Speaker 2: the considerations that might come up, there are no answers
3:31
Speaker 2: here about you know, yes you should leave or yes
3:33
Speaker 2: you should stay, And that's not something that we could
3:36
Speaker 2: answer for any individual other than ourselves. And the final
3:41
Speaker 2: thing I want to say is that you and I
3:42
Speaker 2: they are both married, and so we don't come at
3:45
Speaker 2: this with personal divorce experience. Yes, all right, So when
3:49
Speaker 2: people ask me the question about whether they should stay
3:53
Speaker 2: or go, they often come with data. So they or
3:57
Speaker 2: they ask the question about data, what does the data
3:59
Speaker 2: say about divorce and kids? And the reality is what
4:01
Speaker 2: the data says is sometimes very scary. So I'm actually
4:04
Speaker 2: going to read a quote from a paper from a
4:07
Speaker 2: meta analysis.
4:08
Speaker 1: So here's the quote.
4:10
Speaker 2: Early in the decade, a motto and Keith nineteen ninety
4:13
Speaker 2: one that's a citation published a meta analysis of ninety
4:16
Speaker 2: two studies that compare the well being of children whose
4:19
Speaker 2: parents had divorced with that of children whose parents were
4:21
Speaker 2: married to each other. Their meta analysis showed that children
4:24
Speaker 2: from divorced families scored significantly lower on a variety of outcomes,
4:29
Speaker 2: including academic achievement, conduct, psychological adjustment, self concept, and social competence.
4:35
Speaker 2: The paper goes on to say that it also has
4:38
Speaker 2: long term impacts on children's health. Now, these data are
4:43
Speaker 2: flawed in some important ways. One is that there's a
4:46
Speaker 2: basic correlation versus causality issue. Families with divorced parents tend
4:50
Speaker 2: to be different. There's also this important conceptual issue that
4:54
Speaker 2: I think we can talk about, which is that these
4:56
Speaker 2: studies are comparing children of divorced parents to children of
4:59
Speaker 2: married parents, at least some of whom are probably happy.
5:02
Speaker 2: That actually isn't really the question that people are asking
5:05
Speaker 2: if they're contemplating divorce. So I think the place to
5:08
Speaker 2: start with this is, assuming that your marriage is unhappy,
5:12
Speaker 2: is it better to split up or stay together for
5:14
Speaker 2: the kids. And that's a place where we don't really
5:15
Speaker 2: have very good data So that's very long wind up,
5:20
Speaker 2: and I want to start with asking you this question.
5:23
Speaker 2: So let's say somebody comes to you in your counseling
5:26
Speaker 2: social work role. They say that they're considering divorce. They're
5:29
Speaker 2: asking whether it's bad for the kids. Just what do
5:32
Speaker 2: you tell them?
5:33
Speaker 3: So I do think that there are some questions that
5:38
Speaker 3: can be clarifying if they're contemplating divorce, the wondering if
5:44
Speaker 3: it's a choice that makes sense for them and their family.
5:48
Speaker 3: And I think, you know, thinking about how old their
5:51
Speaker 3: kids are is a really important question, both when you
5:55
Speaker 3: think about what the impact of the divorce will be
5:58
Speaker 3: on those kids. Know that's all kids of all ages
6:03
Speaker 3: will be impacted in different ways. But I think it's
6:06
Speaker 3: also really important to think about, like what stage of
6:11
Speaker 3: parenting are you in right now, Like is parenting likely
6:15
Speaker 3: to get easier? I think we know from data and
6:20
Speaker 3: from people's reported experience that having young children is really tough.
6:25
Speaker 3: It's really tough on a marriage. Often there's an adjustment period.
6:29
Speaker 2: So verrital happiness goes down like dramatically in the first
6:33
Speaker 2: year of a kid's life, and then it sort of
6:35
Speaker 2: like recovers by the time you have grandchildren, although it
6:38
Speaker 2: does recover more, does recover more quickly than that, but
6:41
Speaker 2: that first year is it's often a low. And even
6:44
Speaker 2: that like first few years, I think it shows in
6:47
Speaker 2: the data as like a real low for people's marital satisfaction.
6:51
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think like folks with school's age children
6:53
Speaker 3: tend to report being happier right than folks with like
6:57
Speaker 3: infant preschool type age. And it's it's really hard to
7:01
Speaker 3: learn how to co parent for many people, and how
7:04
Speaker 3: to have kids and make those sacrifices and make them,
7:08
Speaker 3: you know, with somebody else. So the experience of parenting
7:12
Speaker 3: does often get easier, and I think that that's an
7:14
Speaker 3: important consideration. And you know, I think that also it
7:18
Speaker 3: goes hand in hand like divorce is quite hard on
7:20
Speaker 3: young kids. It can be quite hard on lots of kids,
7:23
Speaker 3: but young kids in particular, they often lack like an
7:27
Speaker 3: understanding of what's happening if parents are divorcing and why
7:30
Speaker 3: it's happening, and they just sort of are there for
7:33
Speaker 3: the emotional fallout, and that can be quite tough.
7:36
Speaker 2: So let's I want to dive into that a little
7:38
Speaker 2: bit because I think you know, one one frame on
7:43
Speaker 2: that you could have as well. If your kids are
7:44
Speaker 2: a little you know, it could get better, so you
7:47
Speaker 2: should keep trying. Of course, that can veer into like
7:51
Speaker 2: just try harder, which is not going to work for
7:55
Speaker 2: for everybody. So I mean, how do you think about
7:57
Speaker 2: that balance? Like, how do I know if this is
8:01
Speaker 2: it's the first year and it's really hard, or is
8:03
Speaker 2: it you know, actually this is not going to work
8:05
Speaker 2: any time?
8:07
Speaker 3: Well, I think there's a number of things to think
8:08
Speaker 3: about there. I mean I think, like, you know, has
8:12
Speaker 3: counseling been tried? If if both parties aren't amenable to counseling,
8:18
Speaker 3: is there a way to sort of strongly encourage the
8:23
Speaker 3: reluctant party to consider it. And I think it's really
8:29
Speaker 3: important to think about what's the mood in your house,
8:33
Speaker 3: Like what's because the marriage is often kind of setting
8:37
Speaker 3: the tone or the temperature of a family or a household, right,
8:41
Speaker 3: And so is the state of your marriage impacting the
8:44
Speaker 3: mood of your family and is that mood impacting your kid?
8:50
Speaker 3: And if it is in negative ways, that's something to
8:54
Speaker 3: take seriously. I think it's not just about there's there's
8:59
Speaker 3: a lot of like sort of conversation around divorce about
9:03
Speaker 3: like oh, you know, adults prizing their own happiness over kids.
9:07
Speaker 3: And that's obviously very reductive because kids respond to the
9:12
Speaker 3: moods and the happiness levels of their grown ups and
9:17
Speaker 3: the people caring for them. So I think that's something
9:20
Speaker 3: to take really seriously and to think about. I think
9:25
Speaker 3: sort of with the counseling question, is is there a
9:27
Speaker 3: plausible path forward for adult happiness within the current household
9:33
Speaker 3: arrangement or does counseling feel like it would be like
9:37
Speaker 3: a box to be ticked? And sometimes it's hard to know.
9:40
Speaker 3: You know, good therapists, good couples therapists can be really
9:44
Speaker 3: really wonderful and can really help people resolve problems that
9:48
Speaker 3: feel intractable, you know, like they're they're skilled professionals, many
9:52
Speaker 3: of them, and they've seen a lot, and things that
9:56
Speaker 3: feel like insurmountable problems are often things that they can
10:00
Speaker 3: actually help folks address.
10:03
Speaker 2: I want to stay for a minute on this sort
10:05
Speaker 2: of your own relationship part of this, because I think
10:08
Speaker 2: when we talk about, you know, should I stay for
10:11
Speaker 2: the kids or not, it actually is often framed as like, well,
10:14
Speaker 2: I've decided that this relationship isn't working, and some of
10:16
Speaker 2: what I hear coming from you is well, like, maybe
10:21
Speaker 2: that's the first thing to ask. And of course there
10:24
Speaker 2: are circumstances in which is absolutely not a relationship you
10:26
Speaker 2: want to stay in, but that there are actions that
10:29
Speaker 2: one can take, and so therapy comes up in that.
10:32
Speaker 2: But I think the other piece of this that we've
10:34
Speaker 2: talked a little bit about is, you know, are there
10:37
Speaker 2: things that are going on that are going to lead
10:40
Speaker 2: to these same kinds of issues in any relationship that
10:43
Speaker 2: one has. There's a sort of the grass is greener
10:45
Speaker 2: on the other side piece of this, which even if
10:47
Speaker 2: you're going to split up, maybe is worth understanding before
10:51
Speaker 2: you sort of make that decision to try to move on.
10:55
Speaker 3: Yeah, one thing that I've heard from couples therapists, from
10:58
Speaker 3: many couples therapists, is that many seconds marriages or partnerships,
11:02
Speaker 3: it's enough to be a marriage. They fail for similar
11:05
Speaker 3: reasons to the first marriage, because you know, everybody brings
11:10
Speaker 3: their stuff with them wherever they go, and so without
11:16
Speaker 3: a really comprehensive understanding of what has led to the
11:19
Speaker 3: demise of the current relationship, it's not necessarily so realistic
11:25
Speaker 3: to imagine that a new relationship is going to be
11:28
Speaker 3: like really satisfying. Not to say that it won't be
11:31
Speaker 3: and that there are some folks that are just like
11:32
Speaker 3: really ill matched, but I think it is a really
11:37
Speaker 3: responsible action if you're thinking about, you know, doing this
11:40
Speaker 3: for your own happiness and their kids involved, and you
11:44
Speaker 3: know you want to sort of think about their long
11:47
Speaker 3: term stability and happiness and what their household will look
11:51
Speaker 3: like and what your you know, what your own happiness
11:54
Speaker 3: might look like too. Is to really take stock of
11:57
Speaker 3: what has caused the problems and the current relationship and
12:01
Speaker 3: most often you know, it's two sided. And having a
12:04
Speaker 3: really solid understanding of the things that you brought to
12:07
Speaker 3: this relationship that perhaps contributed to some of its talent
12:11
Speaker 3: is I think really important sort of work to do.
12:15
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is piece one, which is you know, somebody
12:18
Speaker 2: comes and they say, you know, I'm thinking about a divorce.
12:20
Speaker 1: Should I say for the kids?
12:21
Speaker 2: The first question is, really, you know, can you understand
12:24
Speaker 2: better what is going on in the marriage? Is there
12:27
Speaker 2: a way forward here? Is this a moment or is
12:30
Speaker 2: this a time that is going to get better?
12:31
Speaker 1: Is there?
12:32
Speaker 2: And of course in the end the answer is like
12:34
Speaker 2: go to therapy if you haven't. Yes, Sometimes the resistance
12:39
Speaker 2: to therapy is like, well, what are they going to
12:41
Speaker 2: tell me that I don't know? And I take your
12:43
Speaker 2: point very clearly, they well, I don't know, but this
12:45
Speaker 2: person is a professional.
12:47
Speaker 3: Yes, and don't be afraid to try more than one person.
12:50
Speaker 3: I think that some of my favorite data about the
12:53
Speaker 3: success of therapy is about people getting insights and feeling
12:58
Speaker 3: that they've gotten a lot of sport from the therapy
13:00
Speaker 3: and a lot of insights and you know, solutions to
13:03
Speaker 3: their problems is really dependent on just like the relationship
13:06
Speaker 3: between you and the therapist, whether or not it feels helpful.
13:11
Speaker 2: So then there's a second piece of this, which is,
13:14
Speaker 2: let's say, you know, we have been to therapy, We've
13:17
Speaker 2: done this like the marriage from a marriage standpoint is over,
13:22
Speaker 2: We've understood all of our stuff.
13:23
Speaker 3: You know.
13:24
Speaker 2: It is like, this is not the relationship for the
13:27
Speaker 2: long term. And then the question is, okay, should I
13:31
Speaker 2: stay should we stay together for the kids? For whatever
13:35
Speaker 2: is some you know, and often people will think about this,
13:37
Speaker 2: you know, for some period of time, maybe not forever,
13:41
Speaker 2: but like you know, for the duration of our kids
13:43
Speaker 2: school age or whatever it is. And for me, I
13:47
Speaker 2: think the frame I would give on this is I
13:50
Speaker 2: talk a lot about deliberate decision making and the idea
13:54
Speaker 2: of you know, framing a question and then kind of
13:56
Speaker 2: evaluating the options really clearly. And so we have kind
13:59
Speaker 2: of options, and you know, we stay in the household
14:02
Speaker 2: together in this marriage that's not really working versus you know,
14:06
Speaker 2: we live in two different households, and within those you
14:09
Speaker 2: could ask kind of what's the best possible set up,
14:13
Speaker 2: and you know, is the best possible divorce set up
14:16
Speaker 2: for your kids, like better than the achievable set up
14:19
Speaker 2: inside the household, sort of taking into account that if
14:23
Speaker 2: you're living together, you will be unhappy. If you're living apart,
14:26
Speaker 2: maybe they will be unhappiness. And so thinking about that,
14:29
Speaker 2: what are the things I want to be that I
14:31
Speaker 2: want to have in my mind? Thinking about how my
14:34
Speaker 2: kids are going to interact with or feel about having
14:36
Speaker 2: these sort of multiple lives, and how can I make
14:39
Speaker 2: that as good as possible if we're going to go
14:41
Speaker 2: that direction.
14:42
Speaker 3: Yeah, So I think a really important question to ask
14:45
Speaker 3: is like, what would your kids experience be of being
14:48
Speaker 3: parented in two different households, And what do you think
14:54
Speaker 3: maybe those two different households will look like? And most importantly,
14:59
Speaker 3: can you you both can both parents maintain some threads
15:03
Speaker 3: of continuity for them for your kids. Is that plausible?
15:09
Speaker 3: And I think one of the things that winds up
15:12
Speaker 3: being really really hard for children whose parents divorce is
15:17
Speaker 3: that they wind up living into entirely separate worlds. Right
15:24
Speaker 3: Like these two people have decided to part ways for
15:27
Speaker 3: presumably lots of good reasons. There are a number of
15:31
Speaker 3: differences between these two grown ups, and the world's kind
15:34
Speaker 3: of pull apart, right like in a marriage, and a
15:38
Speaker 3: marriage that that's working, adults are sort of pulling each
15:42
Speaker 3: other closer towards the middle. Like right, one person might
15:45
Speaker 3: be like very strict about you know, dessert or bedtime,
15:48
Speaker 3: and another the other parent might kind of soften that
15:51
Speaker 3: a little bit or be a counter to that, and
15:54
Speaker 3: there's a sort of like happy ish in many cases
15:58
Speaker 3: medium that's achieved, like each parent can kind of soften
16:01
Speaker 3: the other, pull them toward each other. There's this like
16:05
Speaker 3: countering towards inclinations, but that falls apart when there's a separation.
16:10
Speaker 3: People sort of go flying in opposite directions. So it
16:14
Speaker 3: might be it might be around any number of things.
16:16
Speaker 3: The things that I see most frequently are like, you know,
16:20
Speaker 3: attitudes towards food or sweets or like you know, healthy
16:24
Speaker 3: quote unquote healthy or unhealthy food, or schedules or rules
16:28
Speaker 3: about like TV and video games and so these so
16:32
Speaker 3: kids wind up living in these households that have really
16:37
Speaker 3: radically different approaches to like the day to day minutia
16:41
Speaker 3: of a kid's life, like bedtime or whatever. Like that's
16:45
Speaker 3: that's a pretty significant thing for a kid, and that
16:49
Speaker 3: can be really really hard for kids to sort of
16:53
Speaker 3: code switch between these two really different household cultures. Keep
16:57
Speaker 3: in my most kids are also going to school, so
16:59
Speaker 3: that's like another culture that they're having to kind of
17:03
Speaker 3: become fluent in, and it can be really really tricky
17:08
Speaker 3: for them to sort of bridge that gap by themselves. Yeah,
17:13
Speaker 3: I think that's something that folks don't always anticipate, but
17:17
Speaker 3: it's something that I see as often like pretty tricky
17:21
Speaker 3: for our kids to namaking.
17:22
Speaker 2: I mean, I think what's interesting there is the thing
17:25
Speaker 2: you sort of in some ways, those disagreements are things
17:28
Speaker 2: we have inside a marriage too, Right, Sure, like somebody
17:33
Speaker 2: cares more about bed time than someone else, or somebody
17:35
Speaker 2: cares more about TV or sweets or whatever it is
17:37
Speaker 2: for the other person. But when you're doing it inside
17:40
Speaker 2: the marriage, you kind of you sort of have to
17:42
Speaker 2: do the same thing, or at least you have to
17:44
Speaker 2: kind of come together more frequently to interact with this
17:47
Speaker 2: in the splitting into the households, unless you're very explicit
17:51
Speaker 2: about those all of those things, there is this inevitability
17:56
Speaker 2: in some ways that that you're you're going to pull
17:59
Speaker 2: into your set up references which are maybe different from
18:01
Speaker 2: your partners.
18:03
Speaker 3: Yeah, and some of that I think is unavoidable, and
18:06
Speaker 3: I think some of it can be can be mitigated,
18:10
Speaker 3: and it is worse mitigated by agree.
18:12
Speaker 2: So I mean in terms of that mitigation, like by
18:14
Speaker 2: agreeing upfront what our rules are or you know, this
18:17
Speaker 2: should be part of a parenting agreement.
18:20
Speaker 3: Sure, Yeah, like that bedtime as part of the parenting agreement,
18:24
Speaker 3: and that like you know, figuring out ways that feel
18:29
Speaker 3: comfortable to each parent to have rules about you know,
18:35
Speaker 3: food or video games, and not that they will necessarily
18:38
Speaker 3: be the same, but that schedules remain reasonably consistent in
18:43
Speaker 3: each household, and that it's just not there's not a
18:46
Speaker 3: sense of things being radically radically different from a kid
18:50
Speaker 3: going from one planet to another planet, like planet video
18:55
Speaker 3: games and ice cream to planet do your your mind facts.
19:00
Speaker 2: One way to frame the things that you might want
19:03
Speaker 2: to sort of agree on upfront is that the dynamic
19:06
Speaker 2: that I think is quite hard for many people is
19:09
Speaker 2: when there's a fun parent and there's a non you know,
19:12
Speaker 2: and so kind of you're you're tempted to be the
19:15
Speaker 2: fun parent, and there are some of these things like
19:17
Speaker 2: bedtime or sweets, which you know, of course, kids have
19:20
Speaker 2: a particular often have a particular view about which thing
19:23
Speaker 2: they prefer, and attempting to have some more hard and
19:27
Speaker 2: fast rules so at least we're sort of both kind
19:29
Speaker 2: of un fun.
19:30
Speaker 1: In the same ways. Could mitigate some of sort of
19:33
Speaker 1: those instincts.
19:34
Speaker 3: I think giving them a sense that you are familiar
19:39
Speaker 3: with their other world, with the world of the other parent,
19:43
Speaker 3: that it is a world that you understand, is really
19:46
Speaker 3: valuable for them, because I think one of the things
19:49
Speaker 3: that adult you know, many many adult children of divorce
19:53
Speaker 3: report that, you know, it was great that their parents
19:56
Speaker 3: got divorced because they thought less or you know, they
19:59
Speaker 3: got to see their parents sort of become happier and
20:02
Speaker 3: self actualized or whatever. That's that's certainly something that people say.
20:05
Speaker 3: But one of the things that adult children of divorce
20:08
Speaker 3: report is being really hard is the sense that they
20:12
Speaker 3: alone or like maybe they and their sibling are the
20:15
Speaker 3: person who knows the ins and outs of their life.
20:18
Speaker 3: Like that, there's like that they were sort of tasked
20:21
Speaker 3: with navigating two worlds and those worlds were unknown by
20:25
Speaker 3: the adults in their life, right, like that their mother
20:28
Speaker 3: had no idea what their dad's world consisted of, she
20:32
Speaker 3: didn't speak that language, she wasn't familiar with its norms.
20:35
Speaker 3: And so they are sort of like these like you know,
20:39
Speaker 3: lone sailors, like on this sea, like moving from one
20:43
Speaker 3: place to another, and that's hard, Like that's that's a
20:48
Speaker 3: very difficult burden for a kid to carry. Like kids
20:51
Speaker 3: want to be seen, They want to be known and
20:53
Speaker 3: understood and have a sense that their adults are looking
20:57
Speaker 3: out for them and sort of are familiar with their challenges.
21:01
Speaker 3: Are even teenagers want that even if they like pretend to.
21:04
Speaker 2: I'll tell you that they hate you, they really want
21:06
Speaker 2: you to They really want you to know everything about
21:07
Speaker 2: their lives, even though what's coming out of their mouth
21:09
Speaker 2: is they want to tell you not.
21:10
Speaker 3: Exactly yes, And so that's really tricky to have them
21:15
Speaker 3: sort of navigating those waters on their own, and the
21:18
Speaker 3: sort of pulling apart of two household cultures is I
21:22
Speaker 3: think a big piece of that. So doing what you
21:24
Speaker 3: can to mitigate that, you know, and for some folks
21:27
Speaker 3: that does mean like spending time together, like with their
21:29
Speaker 3: ex and their kid, and like that's like hard, but
21:34
Speaker 3: that stuff is really really worth doing, and I think
21:37
Speaker 3: does go quite a long way towards like a kid
21:40
Speaker 3: feeling that they are that sort of lone sailor dark
21:44
Speaker 3: lid ocean, like that's not what we want.
21:49
Speaker 2: But but then of course there's sort of you say,
21:52
Speaker 2: you spend time with your ex, But then there's there's
21:54
Speaker 2: the more extreme form of that, which is you could say, look,
21:57
Speaker 2: you should stay, like you should try to work it
21:59
Speaker 2: out and interested in going back to what you said
22:01
Speaker 2: about sort of what adult children say is better.
22:04
Speaker 1: And it sounds like some of that or like a
22:07
Speaker 1: lot of that.
22:07
Speaker 2: I think this shows up in the data is saying
22:09
Speaker 2: you know, my parents were fighting a lot and it
22:11
Speaker 2: was better to not have that, or they were clearly
22:13
Speaker 2: unhappy and it was better to be away from that.
22:16
Speaker 2: So one question I think people could ask is, you know,
22:20
Speaker 2: should I should I stay?
22:22
Speaker 1: If I'm going to stay. What is the atmosphere?
22:24
Speaker 4: You know?
22:24
Speaker 2: Are we fighting a lot? Is it just that, you know,
22:26
Speaker 2: is it that I don't feel fulfilled with this person?
22:28
Speaker 2: And like this relationship isn't working but I like them? Okay,
22:32
Speaker 2: Like we're not fighting a lot, We're just not really
22:35
Speaker 2: in love anymore. Or is it that actively in the
22:37
Speaker 2: household the kids are noticing that things are not going well,
22:42
Speaker 2: in which case, maybe that's not something we want our
22:44
Speaker 2: kids to be around.
22:45
Speaker 1: Because what are we teaching our kids, right?
22:47
Speaker 3: Because what are we teaching our kids about relationships? And
22:50
Speaker 3: what are we teaching our kids about love? And what
22:53
Speaker 3: are we teaching them about conflict? Like I think those
22:55
Speaker 3: are really important questions to ask, Like what are your
22:58
Speaker 3: kids learning about relationships and conflict as they watch you
23:04
Speaker 3: and your partner? And if they're learning that, you know,
23:07
Speaker 3: relationships are not the stuff of like sort of Hollywood
23:12
Speaker 3: romance movies, like that's an okay lesson to learn perhaps,
23:17
Speaker 3: But if they're learning that people who disagree with one
23:21
Speaker 3: another are unkind to one another and make each other miserable,
23:26
Speaker 3: this maybe not, that's like a harder lesson for them
23:28
Speaker 3: to come away with. As they like enter into their
23:32
Speaker 3: own having of relationships.
23:34
Speaker 2: So one question I think many people think about it
23:37
Speaker 2: is how much about my divorce should I share with
23:40
Speaker 2: my kids? So this especially comes up if your kids
23:43
Speaker 2: are a little older. You know, should I explain to
23:46
Speaker 2: them why we're not getting along or why this didn't
23:49
Speaker 2: work or what we tried, and or is that actually
23:53
Speaker 2: making it worse or not something they need to be
23:56
Speaker 2: engaging with.
23:58
Speaker 3: I think that's yeah, that's a good question. It's a
23:59
Speaker 3: very dependent on the age of the children how much
24:03
Speaker 3: you would share. There's sort of like a trope in
24:07
Speaker 3: kid mental health, which is like divorces a grown up
24:10
Speaker 3: problem and you don't really need to know that much
24:13
Speaker 3: about it, And that's useful to some extent, but it's
24:16
Speaker 3: also a little bit unrealistic. I mean, you know, it's divorces,
24:22
Speaker 3: a grown up problem that affects children, and they see
24:26
Speaker 3: quite a bit of the problem themselves up close often,
24:30
Speaker 3: So I think I think it's worth naming what kids
24:34
Speaker 3: have experienced and giving them language for what they have
24:38
Speaker 3: seen of the partnership, and that I think is almost
24:43
Speaker 3: always worthwhile. Right like that, you know, Mommy and I
24:47
Speaker 3: make each other really angry. We have a hard time
24:50
Speaker 3: using kind words with each other, and you know, that's
24:53
Speaker 3: part of why this is happening, right, And like sort
24:56
Speaker 3: of naming what they have witnessed. I don't think you
24:59
Speaker 3: can really ever go wrong there, because they'll be trying
25:02
Speaker 3: to make sense of what they've witnessed in their own
25:05
Speaker 3: often like suggest so giving them language for that is
25:14
Speaker 3: pretty much always valuable. I think describing or explaining things
25:19
Speaker 3: that they have not seen is tempting, but I think
25:23
Speaker 3: we do. We are pretty clear that, you know, speaking
25:27
Speaker 3: ill about your ex is pretty bad for kids, and
25:33
Speaker 3: so I think being mindful of that and certainly like
25:38
Speaker 3: thinking like if you do feel moved to share something
25:41
Speaker 3: with your kids about why a separation or a divorce
25:44
Speaker 3: is happening, that it should not be centered around like,
25:48
Speaker 3: you know, because your mom is like like a terrible
25:52
Speaker 3: person who has on realistic expectations of everyone around her
25:56
Speaker 3: and as an architect of her own misery. You know,
25:59
Speaker 3: like that would it would not be helpful under any circumstances.
26:05
Speaker 3: I think, you know, if you have teenagers and along
26:09
Speaker 3: the way, you sometimes want to sort of share with
26:11
Speaker 3: them some of the things perhaps that you brought to
26:14
Speaker 3: a relationship that made it hard for it to work
26:18
Speaker 3: in sort of small doses and in developmentally appropriate doses.
26:22
Speaker 3: You know, you're not like sharing inappropriate things that will
26:26
Speaker 3: make them really uncomfortable. You're not asking them to sort
26:29
Speaker 3: of care for you or respond to you in a
26:32
Speaker 3: way that is like, you know, where they would feel
26:34
Speaker 3: worried about you or feel like they needed to take
26:38
Speaker 3: care of you in some way. I think that that
26:41
Speaker 3: can be honest and valuable and fine with older children.
26:46
Speaker 3: It's certainly a conversation to have in thoughtful ways with
26:49
Speaker 3: adult children, but I would be pretty careful about what's
26:55
Speaker 3: shared that isn't like what they've sort of directly seen.
27:00
Speaker 2: I think the general principle from what you're saying is
27:03
Speaker 2: that it may be reasonable to share if you think
27:06
Speaker 2: that sharing would help your kid, rather than if you
27:09
Speaker 2: think sharing would make you feel better. And that's a
27:13
Speaker 2: common thing I think, and much of what we've talked about,
27:15
Speaker 2: which is just prioritizing what they need rather than prioritizing
27:20
Speaker 2: what you need in that moment.
27:22
Speaker 3: Yes, And I think like, and it's you know, we've
27:24
Speaker 3: talked about grief and like being honest with kids about
27:29
Speaker 3: you know, like I'm crying because like Grandma died, and
27:33
Speaker 3: that's like I think, you know, to some to that
27:35
Speaker 3: sort of emotional honesty is valuable. But I do think
27:39
Speaker 3: as much as possible, sort of being a little bit
27:42
Speaker 3: more open to like what this experience is for them,
27:46
Speaker 3: you know. I think when we grieve with kids and
27:48
Speaker 3: in front of kids, we're teaching them how to grieve
27:50
Speaker 3: in some ways, like we're showing them what grief is.
27:53
Speaker 3: And this is a little bit of a different experience
27:57
Speaker 3: because this is like it's an adult decision that has
28:00
Speaker 3: this huge impact on their life. So not that it's
28:04
Speaker 3: not okay to say, like, oh yeah, like you know,
28:06
Speaker 3: I'm crying just because I'm feeling like a little stressed
28:09
Speaker 3: about moving out of the house or whatever it is,
28:12
Speaker 3: but you also, I think it is because their life
28:15
Speaker 3: is being disrupted in this very particular way. As much
28:19
Speaker 3: as possible, sort of being a little more in control
28:21
Speaker 3: and a little more just like attuned to what this
28:23
Speaker 3: experience is for them, If that.
28:25
Speaker 1: Makes it does make sense.
28:27
Speaker 2: So I want to in the last part of this
28:30
Speaker 2: kind of talk a little bit more about mitigation. So
28:33
Speaker 2: let's just sort of assume that you have planned to divorce,
28:35
Speaker 2: and we touched on this a little bit, but like
28:37
Speaker 2: how to make it as easy as possible on kids,
28:40
Speaker 2: And there's actually not a lot of concrete data on
28:43
Speaker 2: the questions that many people ask, like is it better
28:46
Speaker 2: for the kids to stay in the house and have
28:47
Speaker 2: the parents rotate in and out.
28:50
Speaker 1: Which I don't. I don't think we really know from
28:52
Speaker 1: the data.
28:53
Speaker 2: I think what we do have very clearly is like
28:55
Speaker 2: there's a value of consistency, which goes back to what
28:58
Speaker 2: we were saying that in like every area of parenting discipline,
29:02
Speaker 2: kids like to know what to expect. They like circumstances
29:05
Speaker 2: and consequences to be predictable. That just like really works
29:09
Speaker 2: much better for most children, which is going to go
29:12
Speaker 2: back to this sort of making things similar in all environments.
29:16
Speaker 2: But beyond that, if you think about, like what could
29:18
Speaker 2: you do to make the divorce the best?
29:23
Speaker 3: Yeah, So beyond that consistency, which is a big one
29:25
Speaker 3: and is more or less realistic for different people. I
29:30
Speaker 3: think that a huge thing you can do is expect
29:33
Speaker 3: it to be really hard for your kids. That is
29:35
Speaker 3: not to say that it always will be for some kids,
29:37
Speaker 3: you know, the relief of tension being alleviated is huge,
29:41
Speaker 3: But I think for many kids. It is really hard.
29:44
Speaker 3: And when kids experience something hard, they don't say I'm
29:49
Speaker 3: having such a hard time. They act like unhinged.
29:53
Speaker 2: Having so many big feelings and I just need you
29:55
Speaker 2: to acknowledge them using gentle parenting words.
29:59
Speaker 1: Yes right, still working on them saying.
30:01
Speaker 3: That, yes, I just need a little more, I need
30:04
Speaker 3: a little more attention, please you gad. They seldom do that,
30:07
Speaker 3: although if you can teach a kid to ask for attention,
30:09
Speaker 3: that's fabulous. But you know, expecting that kids will act out,
30:15
Speaker 3: that they will regress, that's a huge one. Expecting regression
30:18
Speaker 3: in all areas like behavioral or food or toileting, whatever.
30:24
Speaker 3: I think anticipating that that is a likely outcome can
30:29
Speaker 3: go a long way towards making that less alarming or upsetting.
30:33
Speaker 3: You know, I think it's great to give kids agency
30:36
Speaker 3: when possible. You know, they any anything like a divorce
30:41
Speaker 3: is something that kids they don't they don't have control.
30:43
Speaker 3: They will experience it as like a removal of control
30:46
Speaker 3: or and that is unsettling. So, you know, giving them
30:50
Speaker 3: agency as much as possible within reason, giving them choices
30:53
Speaker 3: that they can make about how things take out, you know,
30:57
Speaker 3: like how a new bedroom is decorated, or you know,
31:01
Speaker 3: does you know if it's possible, like do you know
31:03
Speaker 3: do they get picked up by a parent at school
31:06
Speaker 3: or from the other parents' house, like you know, things
31:08
Speaker 3: like that where they could maybe have some say. I
31:12
Speaker 3: think planning for regression and acting out is important, but
31:17
Speaker 3: I also think it's really important to plan for the
31:21
Speaker 3: fact that that divorce and separation are often a really
31:24
Speaker 3: big deal from an attachment perspective, Like it's really really
31:27
Speaker 3: hard often for a kid to be separated from a parent,
31:32
Speaker 3: often like the primary caregiver parent, yes, but any parent,
31:36
Speaker 3: either parent. It can often be really tough for them
31:40
Speaker 3: to be separated, and they will experience that as like
31:44
Speaker 3: grief and loss and longing, and that is something that
31:50
Speaker 3: it's really important I think for parents to be open
31:54
Speaker 3: to tolerating those feelings of loss and sadness and being
31:59
Speaker 3: there for the kid and with those feelings and to
32:02
Speaker 3: you know, saying like you know, yes, like you're not
32:04
Speaker 3: going to see dad until Wednesday. I hear you that
32:06
Speaker 3: you really miss him, Like what can we do? Like
32:09
Speaker 3: can we write him a better can we record him
32:11
Speaker 3: a video? Would it be helpful to have like a
32:14
Speaker 3: shirt of Dad's at mom's house that you like sleep
32:19
Speaker 3: with like a stuffy you know, like like sort of
32:21
Speaker 3: brainstorming with them. Not that you're necessarily going to land
32:25
Speaker 3: on a solution that feels like that solves the problem
32:28
Speaker 3: for the kid. The problem is not exactly a solvable one,
32:31
Speaker 3: but that they see you as someone who is sort
32:35
Speaker 3: of open to helping them through this talent and can
32:38
Speaker 3: tolerate their feelings. And those can be really hard feelings
32:41
Speaker 3: to tolerate, like if you are, you know, experiencing relief
32:46
Speaker 3: at this separation or grease your own grief. Also possible
32:51
Speaker 3: to have your kids sort of be like, oh I
32:54
Speaker 3: miss Dad, Like that can be incredibly triggering and it
32:58
Speaker 3: can be very hard to rise to that occasion and
33:02
Speaker 3: be like wow, that sounds so tough. I'm so sorry,
33:05
Speaker 3: Like what can we do? Like that is not necessarily
33:08
Speaker 3: going to be your instinct, but I think it's really
33:11
Speaker 3: really valuable to push through even if it feels tough,
33:15
Speaker 3: and to sort of meet them.
33:16
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's incredibly helpful. I mean, I want
33:19
Speaker 2: to name sort of at the end here that we're
33:21
Speaker 2: kind of talking about settings in which both partners are
33:26
Speaker 2: in some sense growing in the same direction, like we
33:29
Speaker 2: both want our kids to be okay and we want
33:33
Speaker 2: to do this in a way that makes it okay
33:36
Speaker 2: for them, and also that potentially we're open to continuing
33:42
Speaker 2: to speak with each other. And I think one thing
33:44
Speaker 2: that is just really really challenging is the divorce where
33:51
Speaker 2: we hate each other, where for whatever reason, this has
33:55
Speaker 2: turned into a really toxic interaction both before and post divorce,
34:04
Speaker 2: where parents are not talking, where they're only talking through lawyers,
34:07
Speaker 2: where they absolutely would never agree on, you know, how
34:10
Speaker 2: the household should work, because they're almost purposely disagreeing because
34:15
Speaker 2: they want to hurt the other person.
34:18
Speaker 1: And I do think that's not every divorce.
34:20
Speaker 2: That is hopefully not the divorce of the people who
34:23
Speaker 2: are wondering about this and listening here.
34:25
Speaker 1: And I don't think it's really an ansi here.
34:27
Speaker 2: It's for many people that feels like a totally intractable
34:30
Speaker 2: situation in which we cannot possibly make this okay because
34:34
Speaker 2: it is just so so toxic.
34:39
Speaker 3: Yes, for sure, And I think in that situation, though,
34:45
Speaker 3: what the thing you can do? There's lots of things
34:47
Speaker 3: you can't do in that situation. There's lots of things
34:50
Speaker 3: that you know you can't sort of, you know, make
34:53
Speaker 3: their schedules align and sort of have these like shared
34:59
Speaker 3: household routines or cultures. But I think what you can
35:03
Speaker 3: do is you can be there for your kid through that,
35:07
Speaker 3: Like you can you can accept their feelings, and you
35:10
Speaker 3: can validate their feelings, and you can sort of try
35:15
Speaker 3: as much as possible to see things from their perspective
35:18
Speaker 3: to see how this is impacting this series of adult
35:20
Speaker 3: decisions and actions is impacting them, and do your best
35:26
Speaker 3: to really just like be there for them. So I mean,
35:30
Speaker 3: and I think the thing that I that I think
35:32
Speaker 3: it's really important for people to know is that, like,
35:34
Speaker 3: divorce can absolutely be like a really hard thing for
35:37
Speaker 3: a kid, but many, many kids face really hard things
35:42
Speaker 3: of all different kinds, and that's okay, Like that's not
35:45
Speaker 3: something that we should be trying to avoid at all costs.
35:49
Speaker 3: What I think we need to think about is, like,
35:51
Speaker 3: how do you prioritize their experience of this big life
35:55
Speaker 3: change and just showing up for them emotionally is so important.
36:00
Speaker 3: Like what we know about kids who are resilient who
36:04
Speaker 3: sort of experience I set back and come out of
36:07
Speaker 3: it is that they have an adult who they love
36:13
Speaker 3: and trust and who they feel really sees them and
36:15
Speaker 3: gets them and loves them unconditionally. Not someone who doesn't
36:18
Speaker 3: make any mistakes, not someone who doesn't like raise their
36:21
Speaker 3: voice ever, but just a person who really cares about
36:25
Speaker 3: their experience, believes their experience, and is like sort of
36:29
Speaker 3: in it with them. And I think that doing that
36:33
Speaker 3: for your kids, you know, regardless of whether the divorces
36:36
Speaker 3: are relief for you, whether it's like a huge loss
36:40
Speaker 3: and a source of grief, it may be like many
36:42
Speaker 3: or any of those things, but being there with them
36:46
Speaker 3: for what it means to them is really really significant.
36:51
Speaker 3: That goes quite a long way.
36:59
Speaker 2: That is a good no to end on. Thank you, Miranda.
37:02
Speaker 2: I really appreciate you being here and talking about this.
37:04
Speaker 2: It's hard, but hopefully there are some helpful takeaways for
37:07
Speaker 2: people who are listening.
37:09
Speaker 3: Yeah, I hope.
37:10
Speaker 2: So thanks again to Miranda for this conversation, and a
37:24
Speaker 2: reminder that we've got links to the resources we mentioned
37:26
Speaker 2: in our show.
37:27
Speaker 1: Notes and on the episode website.
37:30
Speaker 2: More apparent data, including our slightly lighter question of the
37:33
Speaker 2: day after the break.
38:08
Speaker 4: Hi, Emily, this is Jamie calling from Boston, Massachusetts, and
38:12
Speaker 4: I can't believe I'm about to ask you this question,
38:15
Speaker 4: but why do I not mind and sometimes even like
38:20
Speaker 4: the smell of my baby's poop? Okay, thanks bye.
38:26
Speaker 2: Let me say first, I love this question because it's
38:29
Speaker 2: not full of anxiety, and it is the kind of
38:32
Speaker 2: thing we are all always asking. Why are there these
38:35
Speaker 2: weird things that are true about parenting? So why do
38:40
Speaker 2: I like the smell of my kid's poop? The first
38:42
Speaker 2: thing I want to say is that you're not alone.
38:45
Speaker 2: There's actually data that suggests that moms can recognize and
38:50
Speaker 2: in a relative sense, enjoy the smell of their own
38:53
Speaker 2: baby's poops. The way that researchers figure this out is
38:57
Speaker 2: they bring moms in, they have a bunch of poopy diapers,
39:00
Speaker 2: and they have the moms smell them, and it turns
39:02
Speaker 2: out moms like the smell of their own baby's diaper
39:05
Speaker 2: more than they like the smell of other baby's diapers.
39:08
Speaker 2: This is a great research project and interesting follow on
39:12
Speaker 2: question would be why. I think part of the reason
39:15
Speaker 2: is that your poop probably smells kind of like your
39:18
Speaker 2: baby's poop, and we know that people prefer the smell
39:21
Speaker 2: of their own poop to the smell of other people's poops. Now,
39:24
Speaker 2: why does your baby's poop smell like your poop when
39:26
Speaker 2: you're eating very different things? That is probably in part
39:30
Speaker 2: because of the microbiome. The smell of your poop is
39:32
Speaker 2: influenced by the gut bacteria you have, and that is
39:36
Speaker 2: shared with your baby for a bunch of reasons, genetics, environment,
39:40
Speaker 2: things getting passed on during birth. So, in conclusion, you
39:44
Speaker 2: like the smell of your own poop, and as a result,
39:47
Speaker 2: you like the smell of your baby's poop. And that's
39:49
Speaker 2: why we keep being parents, even though it's primarily poop oriented.
40:00
Speaker 1: Kind of shitty, sometimes funny.
40:13
Speaker 2: Parent Data is produced by Tamar Avishai with support from
40:16
Speaker 2: the parent Data team and pix. Also special thanks to
40:20
Speaker 2: our house violinist, my daughter Penelope.
40:22
Speaker 1: No problem. Well, if you have thoughts.
40:25
Speaker 2: On this episode, please join the conversation on my Instagram
40:27
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40:34
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41:00
Speaker 2: It really helps people find out about us, Right Penelope,
41:03
Speaker 2: Right Mam.
41:06
Speaker 1: We'll see you next time. M