Latest / The Cyclical Doula Podcast: Fertility Awareness, Charting Cycles, and Reproductive Health Education / Holding Grief and Joy: Sarah Cox on Infertility, Loss, and the Power of Community
Transcript
- Emma: Welcome back. Today I'm joined by Sarah, a mother to three living children and a daughter in heaven and the heart behind journey for Jasmine. Sarah's story includes infertility, PCOS, fertility treatment, multiple pregnancy losses, and the complex reality of pregnancy and parenting after loss. Emmamma: hey, just popping in real quick to say sure you're subscribed to the Cyclical Doula podcast on whichever platform you're listening to. ⁓ Thanks so much for being here today on the cyclical doula podcast. If this episode resonated with you, the most powerful thing that you can do is to share it, send it to a friend, text it to your sister, forward it to that group chat. This is how conversations about our bodies start changing, quietly, organically, woman to woman. you are listening and thinking, ⁓ ⁓ want help applying this to my Emma: through all of these lived experiences, she has become a powerful advocate for families navigating infertility and grief, especially those who were never given the education or support they needed to understand their bodies. Sarah is also the creator of Finding Hope After Lost podcast and the keeper of a traveling rainbow skirt that's journeyed across all 50 states and around the world, ⁓ connecting lost family through remembrance and hope. Emmamma: And don't miss upcoming conversations. If this episode is resonating with you, please share it with a friend, rate it and write a review. This is how this movement grows, not through algorithms, but through women talking to women. All right, let's jump back into it. I offer free cycle clarity calls. It's a relaxed conversation over Zoom we talk through your goals, your charting practices, and kind of support that would actually make sense for you. can book one at emmamma.com / free. And if you already, make sure you're following or subscribe to the Cyclical Doula - podcast so that you don't miss future episodes. Emma: I am so honored to have you here today, Sarah. Welcome. Sarah: Thank you so much for having me on. I'm really excited to talk today. Emma: Awesome. Well, can you tell us a little bit more about who you are just as a human being? Emmamma: And if you feel called to leave a rating or review, it genuinely helps more women find this work. So thank you. You deserve to understand body. You deserve to feel confident in your reproductive choices. And you ⁓ have to figure it out alone. I'll see you next week. Thanks for being here. Sarah: Sure. Yeah. So as you said, my name is Sarah. I am thirty-eight and I live in Texas. I've been married to my husband for fourteen years. I have to always think about the do the math in my head. And ⁓ yeah, we have three living children and then we've had three losses as well. And for my full time job, I do everybody's favorite thing, taxes and accounting. So that's a little about me. And ⁓ and we have a dog. Her name is Nellie. Emma: Yeah. Nice. Awesome. Well, so cool. Thanks for sharing that. What I've been really enjoying hearing everything from everybody that I've been interviewing. So I love asking what's a ritual or a rhythm that you are loving in this current season of life? Sarah: That's a hard question because my my life has been pretty chaotic and like changing all the time. So you know, for for a while, my favorite thing has just been reading and spending like, you know, a certain amount of time every day just for myself where I can actually read. I haven't really had time to do it in the past few weeks because like I said, everything keeps changing. But that's my favorite. That's my favorite thing is just getting that time to myself to to do that. Emma: That's awesome. That's good. I have never been a reader and it's one of those things where I like I need to change my mindset around it. But it is so challenging for me. So I always when people are readers and like love to do that and that's calming for them. I'm like, yay, good for you. It's awesome. Is there a particular like genre or like type of book that you read the most often? Sarah: ⁓ lately it's been more like suspense thriller type books. But not any that are like too graphic. So you know, more of the I guess you would say young adult type. Emma: Yeah, that's good. That's so awesome. So cool. Well, I would love to just dive right into telling, hearing more about your story, ⁓ whatever you're wanting and willing to share, ⁓ maybe about infertility and loss and how that just kind of shaped who you are as a as a person and and what you ⁓ have shared doing work with your podcasts and other things like. Sarah: Okay, so yeah, my story can be kinda long, so I'll try to make it. Emma: Take as much time as you'd like. Sarah: But basically when I was sixteen, I wasn't having cycles. So my doctor, I went to the doctor, she diagnosed me with PCOS. And I was basically told, here's some birth control, come back when you want to get pregnant. Not told anything else about it. And you know, you're just kinda like, ⁓ okay, like but at the time, you know, you're sixteen, you're not wanting to get pregnant. So it's like no big deal, whatever. Right. Anyways, fast forward to when I got married and we wanted to start trying for a baby and I wasn't having cycles. So I had to go to my OB and you know they they just try to throw metformin at you and you know all of those things. So ⁓ long story short, we ended up at a fertility doctor. PCOS was confirmed. We tried Clomid which didn't work. Then we went to letrazole it did work but the cycle failed. Emmamma: Welcome to the Cyclical Doula podcast. I'm Emma, a certified fertility awareness educator, miscarriage doula and the founder of Emmamma Sarah: And then after that, I actually got pregnant the very next cycle naturally with my son. And ⁓ and I had also been going to acupuncture. I think that's important to mention because it's done like wonders for my cycle. And so yeah, I it was a healthy pregnancy. I gave birth to him and yeah, everything was good. So then two years later we started to try again and I got pregnant on my own, but had a what Emma: Yeah. Yeah. Sarah: often referred to as a chemical pregnancy or early miscarriage. We went back for fertility treatment, ⁓ did Lechers all again with we had to add in, I was older, so we had to add in injectables. And then I got pregnant, but there was never anything seen on the ultrasound. And so that ended in a miscarriage. Fast forward, we tried again, the cycle failed. Emma: Yep. Emmamma: This space is for women who want to understand their bodies deeply, not just memorize information, but actually feel confident in interpreting their cycles. Here we talk about ovulation, hormones, cervical mucus, basal body temperature, and all that's messy in between emotional layers that come with being woman. We talk about trying to conceive, avoiding pregnancy ⁓ hormones. Sarah: Got pregnant on my own again the cycle after, which seems to be my pattern. And that's when we got pregnant with our daughter, Jasmine. At 13 weeks, we found out she had what's called a congenital diaphragmatic hernia, which means ⁓ there's a hole on one side of her diaphragm. It didn't fully form. And basically given fifty-fifty odds of her surviving, we, you know, met with a specialist, everything was looking up and then we also found out that she had mosaic trisomy fifteen. Ultimately we lost her at 32 weeks when she was still born due to high drops. And then after that we six months later we tried again, did ⁓ fertility treatment again, it worked. Got my rainbow daughter and then in twenty twenty two gave birth to my last living daughter who was a complete surprise pregnancy. So after everything that was Emmamma: postpartum transitions, pregnancy loss, perimenopause, and everything in between. Because body literacy isn't just about charting. It's about the autonomy. It's about informed consent. It's about not outsourcing your reproductive decisions to guesswork or fear. Each week, you'll hear conversations with women's health professionals, ⁓ workers, ⁓ Emma: That's crazy. Sarah: Yeah, so and that's one of those things you always hear happening to other people that you never think will happen to you. So yeah. And that's been kind of my story in a nutshell. Emmamma: and researchers along with solo episodes where I teach practical skills you can apply to your own cycle right away. if you have ever felt like you should have learned this information sooner, if you have ever felt disconnected from your cycle, Emma: Yeah, that's thanks for sharing all of that and for sharing about all of those experiences. What do you do you feel like a big part of going through this and experiencing PCOS and fertility treatment without any like knowledge of your cycles or education from doctors beforehand kind of influenced how you went through that process? Emmamma: If you want to raise the next generation without shame around their bodies, you are in the right place. So grab your tea, open up your notes app, and let's build a cycle confidence together. Sarah: Definitely. I mean, I from my acupuncturist, that's where I learned about tracking my cycles and taking my temperature and you know, she would do all of that. Nobody ever taught me any of that before. Right. And now looking back on it, I know that for fertility doctors, their job is to get you pregnant. It's not to teach you about what's going on to, you know, some do, but a lot don't. And so I think if I had just known A lot more of the things I could have been doing outside of just the treatment, like the diet, the exercise, the or what other health risks I was at because of PCOS, which I think is important to know. It makes me frustrated that they don't tell you. So I think just not knowing those things, I just pretty much did whatever the doctor said because I wanted to be pregnant. And so that, you know, I really do think that that it could have been different if I had just known these things. Emma: Absolutely. I I feel like that's it's so hard 'cause like we want we want to be able to trust doctors well and being able to get the information well. But like you said, a lot of times with fertility doctors specifically if they're just looking at getting you pregnant, they're not taking the time or like they don't have the time to to educate about what's all happening as well. ⁓ which can be frustrating for sure. Sarah: Yeah, and I mean I do understand it. Like they're they're busy. They're you know, there's a lot of people there, but as as the patient it's frustrating to not know what's going on with your own body, you know. Emma: Absolutely. Yeah. So you mentioned your acupuncturist had kind of given you some information about cycle tracking and that you took your basal body temperature and stuff like that. What else did you learn about your body or your cycles during that time that maybe felt supportive to what you were going through? Sarah: a lot of the things I actually resisted because yeah you know like one of the things is she kept encouraging me not to do like heavy exercise, to do walking and yoga and things like that. And I'm like, no, that's not effective. Like you don't you know and now looking back I'm like, ⁓ I should have just listened because Yeah. But you know it goes against everything that you're kind of taught that You have to do heart exercise, you have to get your heart rate up, you have to burn those calories. And so then when you're like, Well, I'm just going for a walk, that doesn't feel like you're doing anything. But things like that, you know, that I wish I had paid attention to more. And also like about the kinds of foods I was eating, about, you know, the warm foods and the cool foods and and just things like that that I kind of now looking back wish I had paid more attention to. But but it was very ⁓ like whole body approach, not just take this medication and you get pregnant. Emma: Yeah, yeah, that totally makes sense. Do you feel like that's something that you are using now to like manage PCOS as well? Or is it something that's not in on your radar? Sarah: I'm trying. Yeah. But life with ⁓ kids and full time job and all that is really hard. So I mean, honestly, it comes in spurts of doing well and then not doing well, but it is stuff that I think about and stuff that I I do try to be better at because I think it's important to follow, you know, what what has been shown to help instead of what we've been taught helps, if that makes sense. Emma: ⁓ yeah, absolutely. Yeah, for sure. That's great. ⁓ so ⁓ you ⁓ experienced loss in in multiple but also experienced pregnancy after loss. And that's something that you have talked about ⁓ on like your podcast and all of those things too, I think. ⁓ so what does what is that experience ⁓ like in the sense of that you wish people understood more about parenting and pregnancy after lost. Sarah: What I think a lot of people feel is that it's just like any other pregnancy and it's really not. It's completely I mean it's the same I I don't want to say emotions, but like you're going through the same thing, but it has like this whole layer of anxiety and fear and but you're at the same time you're trying to balance it with like hope that this baby will make it this time and it's like all of these emotions and it's just always that fear in the back of your mind that you're gonna lose another baby. And even after they're born, like I still worry. I mean, I know every every parent worries about their children, but it's like a heightened worry. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, it's it's worrying more about things that I think other people aren't as aware of. And it's it's just not like anything I've ever been through. It was extremely hard. And yeah, I don't I don't know how I did it twice, but you know, I'm glad I did because it's worth it in the end. But it's just it's really, really hard. Emma: Yeah. I I know that that is such an experience that's so hard. ⁓ and there's so much I I think the big thing that's not talked about a lot is that there's so there can be grief and joy like alongside each other as you're doing all of the things, as you're parenting, as you're going through all those th aspects of pregnancy and ⁓ that it can be both, like you can ha hold both of those things at the same time. Sarah: Yeah, and I think a lot of people don't understand that like being pregnant brings up all and and giving birth, even after you give birth, that it brings up a lot of grief that you may not have expected to come up 'cause you expect to have your baby and then not that everything's fixed, but you know, that you should be happier now. But it's it's a constant reminder of the baby that you don't have here with you. So You know, every milestone that I passed with my rainbow daughter was like, ⁓ Jasmine should be doing this, you know, I should be seeing her crawl, I should be seeing her walk, she should be starting school. You know, it's just there's for the rest of your life, there's just a like a cloud almost of grief that kind of sits over everything. And sometimes it's worse than others, but it's always like lingering there. Emma: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I like you just said, you mentioned a lot of milestones and I and that that keeps going that I like you said, like starting school, and I can imagine like going into high school or driving and like all of those things as kids go through that, that that will always be there for every loss that you have as well. how do you how do you kind of sit in both that joy and the grief at at the same time? Sarah: I found that first of all I can't bottle up the grief because I've definitely tried to do that. You know, and it doesn't work. It still comes out. ⁓ so just kind of giving myself almost like scheduled time, like, okay, I'm gonna go to whatever the event is, I'm gonna enjoy it, I'm gonna be happy to see my child do whatever they're doing, and then I'm gonna go home and let myself be sad about what I've missed out on. Yeah. So it's kind of almost keeping them Separate but s you know, still feeling both, but not falling apart at the event, just doing that later. Emma: That makes sense. Absolutely. And I think like what what an ability and like what a great thing to be able to to figure out that like that's what you need in those situations is to be able to kind of separate them but but know that they're both both gonna be present at at big events and maybe even small ones too. Sarah: Yeah, and and I will say that it's I mean, I'm seven years post loss, so it's taken time to to learn. It didn't come overnight for sure. And sometimes the grief will hit you out of nowhere and you can't wait to grieve. But for the most part, that's what I try to do now. Emma: Absolutely. So you created Journey for Jasmine and shared about your story pretty publicly. Would you like to tell us more about what led you to do that? Sarah: Sure. So as I mentioned, we found out early in the pregnancy at 13 weeks that she had C D H. So I started writing then about just things that were going on with the pregnancy, how I was feeling about the pregnancy. And then when we lost her, I just kept writing and kept sharing about what I was going through. And then I got involved with an organization called Pregnancy After Loss Support, started writing s for them and then was writing about my rainbow pregnancy, like it was a a weekly about whatever was happening or feel it, you know, things like that. And so then I just kinda just kept going from there. Just you know, I found that there's a lot more people in my life that had lost that I didn't know about. Mm-hmm. And people that resonated with what I had to say and people that made me not feel crazy for some of the stuff that you think sometimes. So you know, I just kind of built from there, really. Emma: That's awesome. And you also have this traveling rainbow skirt. Can you tell us more about that and what that represents for you? Sarah: Yeah. So when when I was pregnant with my rainbow daughter, I really wanted something special for my maternity pictures. And someone I knew at the time had sent me a picture of somebody else wearing the skirt and I was like, ⁓ gosh, like I need to find that. So I got one, used it in my pictures. And then after that I wasn't really using it for a couple of years. It just kinda sat around. I saw somebody else who was doing a similar thing and reached out to them and it's like, Hey, is there a way I could get involved? And Didn't hear back, so I was like, all right, I'm just gonna start my own. So I started sending it around and it's grown a lot. I was I remember being worried like nobody's gonna wanna do it. Nobody's gonna wanna share their story. And yeah. Now we're at almost ⁓ five hundred and fifty people that have shared their story. And yeah, as you said, all fifty states, several other countries. It's in Spain right now for the first time, which I'm excited about. And it's just, you know, it just goes to show that. It doesn't matter where you live, where you're from, lost touches everywhere. Emma: Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. I think that's I think it's one of those things that we as a society do not talk enough about and things like having the traveling rainbow skirt just allows for the conversations to be brought up in in more ways and being able to be like visually represented for all of that as well. Sarah: Yeah, and a lot of people, I mean, I've had people that are sharing their story for the very first time wearing it. And people who have shared it, you know, many times. It's all kinds of loss from embryo loss to infant loss to child loss. You know, every kind of loss is represented. And it a lot of people have said it's been very hard but very healing to be able to write it all out and to be able to ⁓ wear it. Some have said it feels like a hug from all the other people who have worn it. you know, before them, which I just love. So it's it's raising awareness while also helping other people to know that it's okay to share their story and to help them heal. Emma: Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's amazing. What has surprised you the most about the way connection can heal that grief? Sarah: I think one of the most surprising things is that it doesn't matter like how far along you were when you had your loss, but we all kind of go through the same feelings and the same. So, you know, I had a 32 week stillbirth. I've also had a miscarriage. They were both devastating in their own way. So, you know, I used to think, well If you lost a like an infant, like that's way worse than if you had a stillbirth. You so you start that like comparison game. But what I found like listening to all the stories and is that, you know, the the the length or the time of the loss doesn't really matter in the grief process. Like we all grieve and we all and also that it's not linear. It's not those steps like you think it is. It's the length or the time of the loss doesn't really matter in the grief process. Like we all grieve and we all and that it's not linear. It's not those steps like you think it is. It's back and forth and you don't get over it. It's lifelong. It's all over the place and it can be pretty crazy sometimes. And that everybody grieves differently. back and forth and you don't get over it. It's lifelong. It's all over the place and it can be pretty crazy sometimes. And that everybody grieves differently. Definitely had to learn a lot about grief. Emma: Yeah, for sure. And ⁓ again, like I feel like that's something that we I think sometimes in grief like it's brought up in like religious circles or some cultures, but it's not something that's really widely talked about 'cause it's really uncomfortable for a lot of people to share about and I think that it could be more comfortable if people continue to share. So it's it's great that you and others are are sharing your own stories. so that other people can feel that connection and feel that comfort too. Sarah: I totally agree. I think we're a society that doesn't like grief, so we just tried to sweep it under the rug and pretend it's not happening. Let's let's not think about that. Emma: Which is horrible. I feel like they're like we can know so much more about it our human emotion and like who we are as people if we're just able to sit in all of those emotions all the time in different ways. Sarah: I mean, yeah, none of us escape grief. We all try, but none of us will. Like we might as well know how to deal with it, right? Emma: For sure. Absolutely. Unfortunately. Yeah. ⁓ do you what is some things that you wish you had support from either medical providers or other maybe family or friends during your losses? Sarah: I think one of the things is there's a lot of people that show up at the beginning, but then as time goes on, it's less and less and less people remember. And to me, I mean, she was, you know, I held her. She was four pounds, like when she was born, like she was a real person. And it's hard when other people just move on and don't mention her, you know, things like that. So it's it's the little things, just you know. Remembering her birthday or remembering that she existed, putting her name on the cards, you know, just things like that after time has passed is what I really wish people would understand that yes, the support at the beginning is nice, but it's also nice if you keep going with it. You know, like people who lose a mom or a dad or a grandparent. I mean, you don't just forget that those people existed. So it why would you you know, do it when it's a baby. If Yeah. It just it seems to be a weird difference there. Emma: Yeah, it's a really weird disconnect of how people respond. Sarah: I think it does have to do with what you said. Like people don't like to think about that babies can die. So they just don't they don't wanna talk about it. They don't wanna bring it up. They don't wanna 'cause it's super uncomfortable. And it's like, Well yeah, but it is for us that have lived through it too. So Emma: Yeah, right, right, right, right. Exactly. For sure. Do you was there any type of support other than maybe people following up and continuing to remember that feels best for you that you would like recommend for either for people who are having who have friends or family members who are going through a loss to to do? Sarah: I think well for me the biggest thing that's been helpful is talking with other people who have been through loss because they get it in a way that nobody else can. And I mean, my loss was, like I said, seven years ago. So the conversations around loss have changed a lot in seven years. There's more there's more people sharing, there's more support groups now, there's more online groups and organizations that weren't around seven years ago. Right. But having those people to talk to has been the most helpful mm-hmm and not trying to go through it alone. Emma: Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. What's something that you wish people who are listening who might be in the thick of infertility or to hear? Sarah: It can be very lonely. I think again with the support, please don't go through it alone. Like you there are big communities out there. You know, if you even if you just search it on social media, you'll find all of these people that are talking about it. And one thing that I found is, you know, there are some people that aren't as comfortable being public about what they're going through. But there's been people who I've seen start anonymous accounts and then they're posting about it. And I think that that's a super helpful way that you can put things out there without like identifying who you are, but still get the support that you need. And then I think just also taking time, like if you're especially if you're going through infertility, I think taking the time to learn about your body and the things that you aren't being taught, like with the PCOS, all the things that I wish I had known. I think that that's really, really important because we get focused on obviously the getting pregnant part because we just want it to happen as fast as possible, especially if you're having to pay for it to happen. Right. But I think it's also important that we know what's going on and other things that we can do on the side to to help with that process. So just educating yourself and advocating for yourself. I think those are really important, but really hard things for many of us to do. Emma: Mm-hmm, for sure. ⁓ what does hope look like for you right now? Sarah: Right now it's knowing that I can still and I don't say move forward or I don't say move on, but I say move forward that I can still move forward with my life, with with my family, with you know, everything, but still have her here with us in all the ways that we can incorporate her. So she may not ever physically be here, but you know, she's still part of our family. Like we still talk about her and Still have birthday celebrations for her. The kids know that she's their sister. So I think it's just learning how to live our life while still including them as much as possible, but knowing that we don't have to be sad every day for the rest of our lives, that we can live again and just incorporate the grief into, you know, our our lives. But a lot of people just worry, you know, like I'll never be able to. on, like I don't know what to do and I think it just shows that your life is not always going to be like it is immediately after that loss, that you will be able to live again. Emma: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Thank you. W is there anything else you want to share ⁓ with listeners? And then also how can we connect with you specifically? Sarah: I just want to share that if you're going through infertility or loss or anything that I'm always happy to talk to you. You know, I it gives me, ⁓ what's the word I'm looking for? Like it makes me feel honored to know that people trust me enough to share with me. And I always try to respond to everybody. Sometimes it takes me a little bit, but I do always respond. And so yeah, if you ever need somebody to talk to, please reach out. ⁓ all my social media is Journey for Jasmine. My podcast is Finding Hope After Loss. It also talks about all infertility and loss topics. And then if you're interested in the rainbow skirt, you can find all of those stories on social media or on the website at journeyforjasmine.com. Emma: Awesome. Thanks so much for being here and sharing your story ⁓ as as just raw and honest as it is. And I really appreciate you being here. ⁓ And we'll put all of those links in the show notes for people to find and connect with you. Sarah: Thank you so much for having me. It's been really great. I always love every chance to be able to share my story. Emma: Yeah, awesome. Thank you.