Latest / Future Christian / Healthy Calling: Arianna Molloy on Burnout, Purpose, and Redefining Work

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Healthy Calling: Arianna Molloy on Burnout, Purpose, and Redefining Work · Future Christian

0:07
>> Loren: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
0:10
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in
0:13
the 21st century. At the Future Christian
0:16
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors
0:19
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
0:21
wisdom to help you and your community of faith
0:24
walk boldly into the future. Whether
0:27
you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
0:30
of your faith community, this podcast is
0:33
designed to challenge, inspire, and equip
0:36
you with the tools you need for impactful ministry.
0:39
And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode.
0:44
>> Ariana Malloy: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
0:47
Loren Richmond Jr. Welcomes Ariana
0:50
Malloy to the podcast. Ariana
0:53
is Associate professor of Organizational
0:56
Communication at, uh, Biola University.
0:59
Her research focuses on meaningful work,
1:02
work as a calling, and the connection
1:05
between humility and burnout in the
1:08
workplace. She is an award winning
1:11
scholar and educator who has published in
1:14
the International Journal of Business Communication,
1:17
Communication Studies and
1:19
Christianity Today.
1:21
Ariana is also a consultant for
1:24
organizations, business professionals
1:27
and ministries. Ariana and her
1:30
husband Alan, have own son and enjoy
1:33
running half marathons, traveling the world
1:36
and drinking good coffee. A
1:39
reminder, before we start today's conversation,
1:41
please take a moment to subscribe to the podcast,
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leave a review and share Future Christian with
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1:50
Martha and Future Christian on Instagram.
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Shoot us an email at, uh, laurensonatemediapro
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uh.com
1:59
with comments, questions or ideas for
2:02
future episodes. We appreciate your
2:05
voice in how we faithfully discern the
2:08
future of the church.
2:18
>> Loren: Hello and welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. I am Loren Richmond
2:21
Jr. And today I am pleased to be joined today
2:24
by Dr. Ariana Malloy. Hello
2:27
and thanks for being here.
2:29
>> Ariana Malloy: Hello. So glad to be here.
2:30
>> Loren: Yeah. Looking forward to having this conversation.
2:34
Let's begin with this. Share just a little bit about your
2:37
faith background, what that looked like in the past for you, what that
2:40
looks like today.
2:42
>> Ariana Malloy: Yeah, uh, I have a very kind of
2:44
boring story. In some ways, I've loved Jesus since I can
2:47
remember. I grew up in a home where two parents
2:50
really modeled what love looked like, what
2:53
Christ's love looked like in an everyday way. And I
2:56
know that that is sometimes very rare. And they didn't come from those
2:59
kinds of homes, so they made an intentional choice to do some things
3:02
differently. But I have loved Jesus since I can
3:05
remember. Um, I think
3:08
that there have probably been times in my life where I
3:10
would have made different choices in hindsight.
3:13
But generally speaking, I have known him as my savior and
3:16
my shepherd, my best friend.
3:19
Um, in college I read a
3:21
couple of books and I was really Involved in
3:24
serving in the junior high, in my church and the college ministry
3:27
in college, I felt like my prayer life kind of
3:29
exploded. I've always loved to pray, but
3:32
in that particular season I really
3:36
felt invited into a deeper level of
3:38
intimacy with the Lord in that regard. So that is,
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that's my story.
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>> Loren: Yeah, thanks for sharing that. Has prayer remained a central
3:47
kind of spiritual practice, spiritual discipline for you? Are there any others
3:49
that you've really, uh, grown fond of perhaps?
3:52
>> Ariana Malloy: Yeah, I think for me, because,
3:56
because God is, is a person, because I
3:58
have relationship with Him. To me prayer is, is
4:01
talking with him, it's coming to him and engaging with
4:04
Him. And so, um, it's not, it's
4:07
not meant, um, to be ritualistic in my heart and
4:10
mind. Although certain rituals do help sometimes.
4:13
So, um, you know, one of my favorite books is Sacred
4:15
Pathways. And in that book it talks about the seven
4:18
different. I think it's seven, actually it might be nine. Nine different
4:21
ways that people can feel close to God. Because we're all different.
4:24
You know, it's similar to any kind of relationship. We all have different,
4:27
essentially love languages and experiences. And the same is
4:29
true in our relationship with God. And so my husband and I
4:32
read that, uh, about three years into our marriage and it was
4:35
really illuminating to, to discern
4:38
what lights us up inside each of us. And for me it
4:41
is kind of a traditional sense of like. I love reading
4:44
scripture in the morning when I have the time. I have a kid now, so it's a little
4:47
bit harder. But um, I love just diving into
4:50
scripture. I love reading books that sort of
4:53
illuminate things about scripture. I love praying.
4:56
For me, I feel the most at home with the Lord when I'm in
4:59
nature. So finding my, my space in that
5:02
is really important. For the last, I don't
5:04
know, five years, I've gone for a walk by the beach. We live close
5:07
enough to the beach on Friday mornings. Every Friday
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I go for a 30 minute walk by the beach and just quiet my
5:13
heart and reorient. And for me, when I see
5:16
nature, I just feel closer to the Lord.
5:19
Whereas my husband, he's more of someone who loves to have
5:22
intellectual conversations. I love those too, but they
5:24
don't make me necessarily feel closer to God or
5:27
he loves to serve again. I love to serve, but it doesn't
5:30
necessarily make me feel closer to God. So I think,
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um, yeah, figuring out. And again, I think that
5:36
can also change depending on the seasons of our lives.
5:39
>> Loren: Mhm.
5:40
Okay, we gotta ask, it's Friday then. Did you get Your walk in.
5:44
>> Ariana Malloy: I'm going after this actually.
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>> Loren: Okay, good. I don't want to get in the way of that then. No,
5:48
no, I don't wanna get in the way of that.
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>> Ariana Malloy: Kind of a sacred space for me. So I try to really
5:52
protect that when I can.
5:53
>> Loren: Yeah. And also, like, I am super jealous that you're
5:56
gonna get to walk on the beach, but it is what it is.
5:59
>> Ariana Malloy: I know Colorado
6:02
has mountains. There's nothing like the, you know, Rocky Mountains.
6:05
But also California has beaches and that's also pretty
6:07
great.
6:08
>> Loren: Yeah. Ariana is a,
6:11
what was a part time resident, sometime resident
6:14
of, uh, of the Denver Metro. Going
6:17
to DU for your PhD. So you got to
6:19
enjoy a little bit of it. Well,
6:22
uh, even though your story is short in some ways, I'm,
6:25
I'm grateful to hear it and also grateful because it gives us
6:28
plenty of time to talk about your book.
6:30
So Ariana is the author of Healthy Calling
6:33
From Toxic Burnout to Sustainable Work.
6:38
And I gotta say, I was really
6:40
impressed by this in many ways in the book, but let's
6:43
begin. Just kind of the standard boilerplate question, like
6:46
what inspired the book? Why did you want to write it?
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>> Ariana Malloy: Yeah, so in my master's, actually I got my master's
6:52
at the University of Portland in Oregon. And in that
6:55
time I was studying, um, how faith based
6:58
organizations manage their business
7:01
values with their faith values. And so that was
7:03
interesting to me. And as I was interviewing folks who
7:06
were part of organizations that did that, I noticed they
7:09
kept using the word calling, which just kind of was in my brain
7:12
a little bit. Um, then I went on to get my PhD and
7:15
I started studying literature on meaningful work.
7:18
So in secular spaces,
7:21
that terminology, meaningful work points towards
7:23
purposeful work, work that feels purposeful and
7:26
impacting. And I remember reading a 2008
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article where in this article about meaningful work,
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they said more studies should be done about how people also approach work
7:35
as a calling. And it was like, yes, I need to study
7:38
this. And so, uh, I studied how
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people from different professional domains experienced work
7:44
as a calling. And so that would have been, you know, an nf. I interviewed
7:47
an NFL coach, lawyers, financial advisors, stay
7:50
at home parents, artists, musicians,
7:52
um, teachers, and, you know,
7:55
psychologists. And so I found several things
7:58
that marked the way they experienced work as a
8:01
calling. By the way, not everyone I interviewed was a Christian.
8:04
So people who aren't Christians still have this identified
8:07
connection for purpose, which I think is God
8:10
given, even if they don't recognize it. Um, so
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that's a really cool way to have a conversation. Too. Like, if someone is not a Christian and
8:16
they feel called, you can say, well, what's calling you? Can you tell me more about
8:19
that? Um, so, yeah, so I studied that
8:22
now in my dissertation. You know, it's like a good dissertation is a done
8:25
dissertation. So I didn't have time to, like, fully investigate everything.
8:29
Um, I studied how people experienced work as a calling.
8:31
I also studied the impact of culture and
8:34
community on that sense of calling. So when we
8:37
have support from, um, our family or
8:40
from our workplaces, and when we don't, how does that
8:43
impact our ability to live that out?
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I also noticed a lot of data
8:49
showing up about the dark side of calling.
8:52
And initially, it was just about like, you know, burnout and
8:55
boundaries and sacrifice. Several years
8:58
later, when I was given a research fellowship as a
9:00
professor, I returned to some of that literature and through
9:03
the lens of looking at humility, this
9:06
was part of the fellowship process as we had to study
9:09
humility. And as it turns out, all the people
9:12
who experienced a healthy sense of calling, who did
9:15
not get sucked into the dark side of burnout,
9:18
actually lived out this sense of humility in their
9:21
calling. So this sort of exploded my research again, and I
9:24
started looking at the dark side in a deeper way. I
9:27
will say, Loren, that in the midst of all of that, I experienced my
9:30
own sense of burnout. I didn't know I would feel called to be a
9:33
professor. I did. The Lord stood. Super called me to
9:36
that. Um, but three years into it, I
9:39
was burnt out to the point where I thought, oh, my gosh, I'm
9:41
experiencing everything I researched in my own life.
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This is not good. And so I guess the
9:47
reason what initially inspired this
9:50
book was because I had been in that place of burnout.
9:53
I knew what it felt like, and I knew how to get out of
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it. And I want anyone who's experienced
9:59
that, who's about to experience that, who's experienced it for
10:02
so long that they don't know what other parts of life look like
10:05
anymore. I don't want them to be trapped by that. And
10:08
there are specific practices that help you get out of it.
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>> Loren: Yeah, this is really good.
10:13
I'm intrigued that it's interesting, like you said, that
10:16
you interviewed folks outside of
10:18
church spaces and also outside of Christianity per se,
10:21
who identified their work as calling. I'm remembering many years
10:24
ago when I was pursuing
10:27
seminary, and I would talk about
10:29
my wanting to go to seminary as a calling. And I m
10:32
remember talking to a friend who was going to medical
10:35
school, and she also kind of used
10:38
similar Language to describe her,
10:41
her journey to want to become a doctor. So it's very interesting that you say
10:44
that.
10:45
>> Ariana Malloy: Absolutely. In fact, I was driving down the 55 in
10:47
California and there's, you know, billboards everywhere. And there was a billboard
10:50
for a hospital, uh, that said, you, healing is
10:53
our calling. And that, you know, that was there,
10:56
um, I was watching a commercial, um, you know, when
10:59
commercials actually happen now on streaming services. And there was
11:02
a commercial for a truck company, I think it was Dodge Ram. And,
11:05
and they said, our calling is to build you good, uh, trucks.
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>> Loren: Interesting.
11:08
>> Ariana Malloy: And so there's this really interesting. I mean, I just think that's so
11:11
fascinating that we all can identify
11:14
with this, this feeling of
11:17
being compelled by something that is the
11:19
fingerprint of God on, on us and in
11:22
us. We were made to be in
11:25
relationship with him. We were given this thirst
11:28
to connect with him from the very beginning.
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>> Loren: Well, this is great. I want to talk about, just
11:34
kind of talk through some topics in the book.
11:37
So let's begin. You've kind of
11:40
hinted at them already, some of the positives and
11:42
negatives of a work calling.
11:47
>> Ariana Malloy: Yeah. So I mean, what's really fantastic is
11:49
that there's sort of three different ways people can approach work. And
11:52
they're not contained, so they can overlap. And you
11:55
can experience, sometimes you can experience all three in one day, depending on what's
11:58
happening in your job. But the three ways that people experience
12:01
work is just a job. That's the first one
12:04
where you go to your job because you need to pay the bills, which is
12:07
no small thing. That's a very real thing. You, you
12:10
took this job because you need to pay the bills. You, you clock
12:13
in, you clock out. You might not like it, you might
12:15
not love it. There's not necessarily a promise of
12:18
upward trajectory. Like there's not necessarily like a 15 year plan
12:21
in your mind. You're going to work to live for the weekends.
12:24
Very real. The second type of approach
12:27
to work is a career. And in this, uh,
12:30
mentality, there are entrepreneurs, there are people
12:33
who really like what they' they think about it.
12:35
They use their skill set, they have that 15 year plan.
12:38
And to them success looks like, oh, I got to move to a
12:41
bigger office. I got a job title change, I
12:44
get to take my family on vacation, I get to buy a new
12:47
car. You know, certain, uh, I made, I
12:50
helped make a playground in this urban area for kids.
12:53
So very explicit sense of reward.
12:56
Again, really great experience. Then the third one is a
12:59
calling. And in our approach to work as a
13:02
calling, It's a sense of
13:05
deep joy and satisfaction where
13:08
we experience four things happening. The four things that
13:11
happen are that it's meaningful. So that's
13:14
it's. And that could be the same as a career. It's meaningful.
13:17
It's more than just functional. You derive meaning from
13:20
it. I interviewed a woman who was a makeup artist and
13:22
she did makeup for people. And she said, you know, I get to help
13:25
people feel beautiful. It was meaningful
13:28
to her. I've interviewed people who were the custodians at
13:31
a hospital, and many people unfortunately
13:34
deem some work as not real work. And that's really
13:36
unfortunate.
13:37
>> Loren: Right?
13:37
>> Ariana Malloy: That's actually, in my opinion, unacceptable. Um, it might not
13:40
be their ideal type of work, but it could be someone else's. And I remember
13:43
interviewing a custodian at a hospital who felt
13:46
it was their job to make that hospital room
13:49
clean and welcoming for the next person who's
13:52
experienced tragedy.
13:53
>> Loren: Wow.
13:54
>> Ariana Malloy: And so that, that's dignifying. So, so
13:56
meaningful. So the second thing is that you feel a sense of
13:59
call, like you can identify, like, oh, I
14:02
feel compelled to do this. There's something
14:05
some people who are not Christians talk about the universe. I
14:08
interviewed a musician who felt, literally felt like his guitar
14:11
was calling him to be a musician.
14:14
We as Christians know that that is God. The Bible says, my
14:17
sheep hear my voice. You know, we respond to the shepherd's
14:20
voice. So the first thing is meaningful. The second thing is calling.
14:23
The third thing is also really important. It is the
14:26
combination. And this is essential, the combination
14:28
of skill and passion.
14:31
So many of us, and especially right after you graduate
14:34
from college, it feels so good to
14:37
do a job you're good at. It's very deeply satisfying.
14:40
But that is a short term satisfaction. After
14:43
about three months, only doing
14:46
it because you're good at it becomes a little boring.
14:49
There's also this need to feel passionate about
14:52
it, to sense a connection to something that you
14:55
care personally and deeply about. Now, the flip side's also
14:58
true. You can feel so passionate about something, but if you're not
15:00
good at it, that can be very demotivating at times.
15:03
And I remember interviewing, um, a CEO of a company
15:06
who said, passion, uh, alone is not enough.
15:09
Passion makes you a great fan. Passion
15:12
and skill set makes you a great employee. You can think about
15:15
it like, if someone did feel called to be a surgeon,
15:18
it's great that they're passionate about it, but you wouldn't want them to walk into the
15:21
surgery room without training. This is where apprenticeship and
15:24
growth and places like college or
15:26
Internships and preparatory work is really important.
15:30
The fourth thing about that sense of
15:32
calling. So we've got that just a job, we've got a career that
15:35
we've got calling. The fourth thing in calling after
15:38
meaningful work, a sense of a caller passion and
15:40
skillset. The fourth thing this is really, really important is that
15:43
it makes a positive impact on others. It is what
15:47
social psychologists and social scientists call
15:49
pro social behavior. Pro social behavior means
15:52
that it's not just a hobby. Doesn't just make you glad,
15:55
doesn't just impact you personally, it impacts others.
15:58
And this, Loren, is where we can especially get into
16:01
the dark side of calling is that connection to impacting
16:04
others.
16:05
>> Loren: Yeah, so I think I, uh, was looking at my phone here. I keep highlights
16:08
on my phone. So there's one. There's a couple highlights
16:11
that stood out to me. I just want to read them since we're talking about
16:14
this one. You. Early on, you
16:17
say saying yes to good things is often more seductive than
16:20
saying yes to obviously bad
16:22
ones. Talk more about that.
16:26
>> Ariana Malloy: Yeah, so. And you, you asked me, you know, um, talking about
16:29
the good and the dark. So of all those categories of people who
16:32
approach work, if you feel called, you're actually the most
16:34
satisfied in your job. You're the most motivated. You're able
16:37
to withstand like, organizational change,
16:40
societal shifts. You are the person people want in the
16:43
room, you're the yes person. And that's great. But
16:46
also research shows you're the most prone to
16:49
burnout. M. More than any other type of person,
16:52
one might say, well, why is that? And it's because
16:55
you see the need, you see the
16:58
deep ache, and you know, you can feel
17:01
it. And so it's really hard to
17:03
know, is it okay to say no sometimes?
17:07
If I'm saying no, am I letting down God, am I letting
17:10
down my community? Like, am I allowed to
17:13
have boundaries? And so
17:15
it's really hard. I think often
17:18
in certain seasons of life, you're just working hard to have opportunities.
17:21
I don't know if you've been in that situation. I think for me in grad school, it was like, anytime I
17:24
had an opportunity, I was like, fighting for it. But then you get
17:27
to a point in life where your
17:30
opportunities are actually all good.
17:33
And it's really, really hard to know how to say no to some of
17:36
those.
17:37
>> Loren: Yeah, let's talk about,
17:40
um, I'm trying to find the quote here. Oh, let's talk about
17:43
the danger of confusing a calling with the
17:46
title. I'm trying to find the quote here.
17:49
Oh, uh, page 24. Too often we confuse a calling
17:52
with a particular title when we should see it as a combination
17:55
of skill sets and passions that can be applied to
17:58
a number of different occupations. In
18:01
this way, our specific calling is always tied to and should
18:04
rest under our general calling. So I want to have you
18:07
respond to that quote, and I also want to kind of, uh,
18:09
dial this in too, to think about. Like this podcast
18:12
is a podcast geared at pastors and church leaders thinking about
18:15
calling within a specific
18:18
faith context, church context, and how
18:22
that confusion can happen
18:25
even amongst churches, uh, jobs,
18:28
church leaders, so to speak.
18:30
>> Ariana Malloy: Yeah, so I'm so glad you brought that up because when we're talking about
18:33
calling, my specific focus of calling is
18:36
the, the secondary type. So as Christians,
18:39
we are all called. We're called to love
18:41
God and love others in everything we do. We do it
18:44
as if we're doing it for the Lord. So that is a general
18:47
calling that we all have in every sphere of our life.
18:50
We should be looking and saying, how am I worshiping the Lord in
18:53
this space? God wastes nothing.
18:55
And so every part of our life is an opportunity to
18:58
worship Him. And Scripture is very clear about
19:01
this. How we do that is how we love other people.
19:04
>> Loren: Mhm.
19:05
>> Ariana Malloy: It's not separate. It's the same part of
19:07
the, of the primary calling. If we're not
19:10
loving others, well, we're not actually achieving our calling with
19:13
God. And so that's a primary calling.
19:16
But God is not just the master of the
19:19
universe, the grand king, he is also the
19:22
intimate creator. And we need to recognize that he's made
19:25
each of us with particular skill sets and
19:27
passions. Those are intentional. You know, I, uh, when I talk to
19:30
college students and they're trying to figure out if they
19:33
should like, pay attention to this interest that they have, I try to
19:36
remind them, hey, not everyone has this interest.
19:39
Part of the things that drive you that you think about when you're driving your car
19:42
or brushing your teeth or you know, randomly doing
19:44
something where your mind is going, you want to think
19:47
about, is this something that's from the Lord and what am I? What
19:50
should I do with that? So I think
19:53
as we're talking about calling, and especially
19:56
like within the church contexts, we are all called
19:59
to love God and love others. But we also need to take
20:02
the courage and the risk and the vulnerability
20:06
to explore how we
20:08
specifically have been designed and um, how we
20:11
can develop those skill sets and passions so that when we
20:14
do those things, we feel like we're worshiping God. And that could be paid
20:17
work Unpaid work, relationships,
20:20
service. So work is only one
20:23
way in which a secondary calling can be lived out.
20:26
It's not the only way. There are a lot of people who just are doing
20:29
their job and that is great. And I, in um, fact both of
20:31
my parents chose because they felt called to
20:34
be good spouses and good parents. They
20:37
chose work that they liked, they didn't love
20:40
because they really wanted to make sure their home life was
20:43
secure. And I think that's the right way to do it. Some of us
20:46
have the opportunity to explore paid work in that way,
20:49
way as well.
20:50
>> Loren: So let's, let's dive into this a little bit more because I think there
20:53
can be this temptation and maybe I'm just speaking for myself,
20:56
having felt this temptation of pursuing a
20:59
title when it doesn't
21:01
necessarily align with your calling.
21:04
>> Ariana Malloy: Yeah. So the reality is that
21:07
people right now, and we're talking about the tool belt generation, is the
21:10
newest generation coming out of college or coming out of high school?
21:14
Um, okay.
21:14
>> Loren: Tool belt generation.
21:16
>> Ariana Malloy: Yeah.
21:16
>> Loren: I haven't heard that before.
21:18
>> Ariana Malloy: Yeah. So people want to acquire a lot of
21:21
skill. And I still believe that that comes through going
21:24
to college because we can learn a lot about ourselves
21:27
by being in class, being in the co curricular part
21:30
of college life, being a little bit on our own, but
21:32
still approaching life like an apprenticeship job. But college is not for
21:35
everyone. You might choose a trade school or immediately
21:38
begin apprenticing with somebody,
21:41
but the reality is people are changing
21:43
jobs between 18 and
21:46
42 on average, 10 times.
21:49
>> Loren: Yeah.
21:50
>> Ariana Malloy: So if we get too attracted to
21:53
a job title or a major or
21:56
something that makes us feel super, super secure,
22:00
we could potentially be missing out on what's actually
22:03
happening. Because our calling is less about a job title
22:06
and it's more about the skill sets and the passions
22:09
and the community we seek to serve. And there's a
22:12
variety of ways to, to do that. So I do feel
22:14
called to be a professor. But if I were to break that down,
22:18
really, Loren, what I feel called to do is I love to
22:21
mentor. Like mentorship is to me one of the
22:24
most important things. I also love to collaboratively
22:27
learn. I love to learn together and talk through
22:29
things and explore the why questions. I love to
22:32
speak interpersonally, one on one with people, but also
22:35
in large groups. And that can happen as
22:38
a professor, but that could also happen in other places too.
22:41
And if I'm not careful, if I hold that professor job
22:44
too tightly, it becomes one of the dark sides
22:47
of calling that we talk about, which is an
22:50
idol. It becomes an idol rather than the way in which
22:53
I can experience my calling.
22:54
>> Loren: Okay, I really want to hone in on this because this is so important.
22:57
I think for me personally, for my
23:00
context that I'm hoping to speak to. I'm thinking of a few
23:03
different things. So I'm going to kind of just talk here and
23:06
hopefully this makes sense. I'm thinking of a book.
23:09
I'll have to recommend the title another way. It's been out
23:12
for a few years and I had the authors on some time ago
23:15
and they talked about, uh, they use
23:18
the words like a telos, like an end,
23:20
a purpose. So I think there's different language,
23:24
similar ethos here. I'm also remembering.
23:27
Do you remember this movie a couple years ago?
23:30
It was like the Sound of Music or the Noise?
23:33
It's about this drummer who lost his hearing.
23:36
>> Ariana Malloy: No, that sounds really fascinating.
23:38
>> Loren: Yeah, I can't even remember what it was on, but it was really
23:41
meaningful to me because I was going through a kind of a career
23:43
transition where I was losing a title. Right. And I
23:46
really had to think about like, um,
23:49
this guy kind of lost.
23:52
He lost his hearing and he was playing in a band. Lost his hearing and
23:55
couldn't obviously play in a band anymore.
23:58
The movie kind of talks about his journey of like trying to
24:01
figure out what his purposes, his calling is. And
24:04
it seemed like his, his title was at one point
24:07
like, he's a drummer in a band. And it seemed like
24:10
he, through the journey of the movie figured out like that his,
24:13
his calling or purpose, whatever, was as
24:16
someone to, I don't know,
24:18
teacher or do music. He kind of went to a deaf school and
24:21
it seemed like the, the kind of. The tease was at
24:24
the m. End of the movie was like, he's gonna like, teach
24:27
these, you know, deaf kids to kind of
24:30
learn music, if I'm remembering correctly. But I'm
24:33
thinking about this and again, I'm being long winded. So forgive me, but I'm
24:36
thinking about this so often in. I
24:39
mean, I see it myself in my own, uh, context.
24:42
I think for pastors and church leaders there can be such
24:45
a
24:48
grip on that title that A, like,
24:51
sometimes pastors stay too long, uh, when they need
24:54
to retire or move on to a different
24:57
context. B, like when you stop having that title of
25:00
pastor speaking personally, things are really,
25:03
uh, confusing. Uh, and then three, it's
25:06
like, as we think about
25:10
American church, broadly speaking, the, the kind of
25:13
professional pastor model is largely going away
25:16
in many cases as folks think about bivocationality
25:19
and co. Vocationality, whatever. So I've given you a lot
25:21
there. Uh, but strike, respond, uh, to what strikes
25:24
you there.
25:25
>> Ariana Malloy: Yeah, I
25:28
love certainty. Um, I am a J on
25:31
the, um, Myers Briggs, um, in the Enneagram, I am a
25:34
6. I'm a healthy 6 usually. But I like. I like a sense of
25:37
safety. Um, I am a type A, although I don't think
25:40
I'm super stringent. But I love lists, you know, and I love
25:43
that security and man job titles or choosing
25:46
your major or, um, a season
25:49
in life, like, oh, I'm a mom of a this
25:51
age kid. Those are all fine.
25:55
But ultimately, if we move
25:58
from those things being an expression of who
26:01
we are to the definition of who we are,
26:05
we get into trouble M. When we move from them being
26:07
an expression of who we are. Hey, by doing these things,
26:10
I get to express who God is to me and I get to
26:13
love others. When we move from that which is healthy to
26:16
this is who I am. And I don't know who
26:19
I am outside of that. Red alarms,
26:22
the fire alarm. Like, uh, you know, our smoke detector goes
26:25
off very easily in our. In our home. Your smoke
26:28
detector should be going off if your job
26:31
is how you know yourself is the only
26:34
way.
26:34
>> Loren: Yeah.
26:35
>> Ariana Malloy: And it's incredibly tempting to do that. I think,
26:38
particularly, again, it's incredibly tempting to do that when you
26:40
feel called because you. You're
26:43
experiencing this sweet spot, you know, Certainly not every day and not
26:46
with every task. But generally speaking, the work you're
26:49
doing makes you feel connected to God. And so when all of
26:52
a sudden that's been taken from you or
26:55
you no longer feel that because you're super burnt
26:58
out, it's extremely disorienting. So I
27:01
think what I would say is this goes back to
27:04
making sure that we're approaching calling
27:07
in a healthy way. And what the really important
27:10
thing about that is, rather than thinking about healthy
27:13
calling as a category, I'm in it or I'm out of it.
27:16
We need to think of it like a spectrum. Where am I today?
27:19
I mean, in writing this book, someone asked me, did you write this book for
27:22
yourself? I didn't because I've already experienced it.
27:26
I wrote it for you. I wrote it
27:29
because my passion is mentorship. When I was writing this
27:32
book, I was writing it imagining that I'm sitting across
27:35
from a coffee table with my favorite white chocolate mocha in
27:38
a beautiful mug, cozy with a fireplace nearby,
27:41
looking at you, the reader, the listener, and
27:44
we're talking together. I did that because,
27:47
um, it's really, really hard. It's really hard when you've
27:50
experienced that. I think there's a lot of things you can
27:53
do. And I'm maybe going on a tangent myself.
27:55
>> Loren: No, go ahead.
27:56
>> Ariana Malloy: But, um, there's a really fantastic
27:59
grid called job crafting
28:02
that you can do that helps you
28:04
reset the current job you're doing. If it's not feeling
28:07
like a calling. Job crafting, um,
28:10
and that's, uh, thinking about the tasks that you're doing.
28:13
Task crafting, relational crafting, thinking about
28:16
relationships that you're experiencing, and cognitive crafting, just
28:18
your mental approach to it.
28:20
And we can chat about that if you'd like, but there are things you can
28:22
do. But ultimately, let's go back to this. Calling
28:26
is about relationship with the caller.
28:30
That's what it's about. It's relationship
28:33
with the caller. It's relationship with ourselves. That's called
28:35
intrapersonal communication. I'm a communication
28:38
professor. It's intra how we talk about work, how we talk about
28:41
work with ourselves. So, for example, uh, when I
28:44
went back from maternity leave after I had my son,
28:47
I realized I was feeling so pulled in so many directions,
28:50
and I was resentful of it. And so every time I left for
28:53
work, my son would say, mommy, don't go. And I would
28:56
say, I have to go, buddy. I have to go to work. And I was driving
28:59
to work, and I thought, you know what? Me telling
29:01
myself that over and over makes me believe that.
29:04
But guess what I get to do? I get to go to work.
29:08
And so I just made that shift. And so the following day,
29:11
I said, oh, buddy, I get to go to work. You know what I get to do today?
29:14
I get to love on students, and I get to tell them about
29:17
Jesus and communication. And I'm so.
29:20
And you get to go to work. You get to go to kindergarten. It's so
29:22
exciting. You get to learn, and I'll see you afterwards.
29:25
And so reframing that to ourselves is really important.
29:28
So relationship with the caller, relationship with ourselves. And
29:31
it's also about relationship with the community. And
29:34
when we think about that, it's also. It's our work community, and
29:36
it's also our personal community. Again with
29:39
a healthy calling. Our families.
29:43
That's, uh, a. That is part of our primary calling, in my opinion.
29:46
And so whatever you see as your family, if you're single, if you're
29:49
married, with kids, without kids, whoever you deem as your family, they
29:52
better be doing really well. If they're not doing well,
29:54
your work is secondary.
29:56
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah.
29:57
>> Ariana Malloy: The problem is people go to their work because it's controllable.
30:00
When personal life feels uncontrollable, when bad things are
30:03
happening, when kids aren't listening, when conflict with spouses are happening,
30:07
they go to work because they can control it again. That takes us
30:10
to the other type of dark side, which is workaholism.
30:14
>> Loren: Yeah, this is all good stuff here. I, uh, feel like I should talk to you
30:16
offline about the job crafting grid, but anytime, I would love it.
30:21
Uh, I want to talk more about shame and burnout. And I
30:24
think if I'm understanding correctly, they're kind of
30:27
two different sides, perhaps of the same coin.
30:30
I want to read a couple quotes here.
30:33
You write, when calling burnout occurs, resulting, uh, feelings
30:36
of shame can distort our relationship with a caller,
30:39
convincing us we are wasting, destroying or even violating the
30:42
skills, passions and opportunities our
30:44
caller has given to us. You, uh, also
30:47
write about deep shame being consuming, evident in a chronic sense
30:50
of unrelenting worthlessness, self doubt,
30:53
so on and so forth. I'm curious,
30:56
I guess, do you think
31:00
is, does shame always come from burnout?
31:03
Can they form independently? That's what I, I guess that's my first
31:06
question.
31:07
>> Ariana Malloy: Yeah, good question. So part of understanding the
31:09
difference between regular burnout. There's been plenty of books and
31:12
research on regular burnout, which is terrible.
31:14
>> Loren: Right, right.
31:15
>> Ariana Malloy: You know, people, regular burnout involves very serious things.
31:18
Psychological paralysis, cynicism,
31:20
apathy, deep exhaustion. People tend to get
31:23
sick more often. Um, disconnection from
31:26
relationships, just no energy at all. A
31:29
lack of meaning. That's terrible.
31:31
But burnout from a calling has a unique
31:34
fingerprint. It is not just burnout,
31:37
it is toxic burnout. And what takes it to
31:40
that toxicity is that chronic or
31:43
deep shame? Because
31:45
it's not just I don't like what I'm doing, which
31:48
is terrible.
31:49
>> Loren: Mhm.
31:49
>> Ariana Malloy: It's. I don't know who I am anymore.
31:52
>> Loren: Yes.
31:52
>> Ariana Malloy: Which is completely disorienting. And the shame
31:55
from that comes because of that relational connection
31:58
with the caller and the community and even yourself.
32:02
The shame happens because it's not just that it's
32:04
impacting you, it feels like it's impacting
32:07
your relationship with God and the people that
32:10
you felt like you're supposed to impact, uh, whether it's in your
32:13
professional or personal life. So that shame is
32:16
relational and spiritual and it
32:19
is paralyzing. So they're
32:21
not exactly the same. But that deep shame
32:24
is part of the core problem with
32:27
toxic burnout and it can hold people
32:30
captive.
32:31
>> Loren: Okay, so I want to, I want to make sure I heard this. So it's. I don't like what
32:34
I'm doing and I don't know who I am anymore.
32:37
So it's this real toxic mess.
32:40
Um, yeah. So you kind of.
32:42
So I was going to ask you this question,
32:44
um, about
32:47
folks who feel vocationally lost. Because again,
32:50
like, I've been there. I don't want to. I want to turn
32:53
this into a counseling session here. But
32:55
like, I have been there where
32:58
I don't like what I was doing.
33:01
You know, I didn't know who I was
33:04
anymore. So, like, when you're in that spot and
33:07
you feel like vocationally just lost, because again,
33:10
I'm thinking like, like there's so much transition
33:12
happening in churches. I've seen this,
33:15
uh, all across the church where pastors,
33:18
especially after Covid, many folks,
33:21
many leaders stepped down, went to work for, um,
33:24
left a church, went for non profit or got out of the church game
33:27
entirely.
33:30
I've done that. And it's hard.
33:33
Uh, yeah. What do you say to those who, just
33:36
because they're in that spot where they don't like what
33:39
they're doing, they don't know who they am anymore because they've been so wrapped
33:42
around this title.
33:43
>> Ariana Malloy: Yeah. First of all, I just want to say I'm so
33:46
sorry you're feeling that way or that you felt that way. That's a
33:49
terrible feeling. And I don't think that
33:52
it's a feeling you need to ignore. It doesn't. Like you're
33:55
not making it bigger than it is. It's a big thing. It's a really big deal.
33:58
Um, you know, my parents were on pastoral staff for
34:01
when I was a kid, and they ended up, um, leaving from that and
34:04
becoming realtors. They worked as real estate agents.
34:07
And my dad is a pastor. Okay. He just is
34:10
you. You hear him speak and everyone's heart
34:13
turns on. His voice is the kind of voice
34:16
that makes people feel seen. He is wisdom
34:19
incarnate, you know, I mean, he's God's wisdom. And,
34:22
uh, he's just a kind, kind, wonderful person. And
34:25
he did real estate. And it didn't. It was. He was good
34:28
at it. It just wasn't the thing that lit him on fire. But you know what he did?
34:31
He chose to pastor in that role
34:33
when he could. He would pray for his clients. He also got involved
34:36
in two different small groups that he led. He also became a
34:39
chaplain for first responders. And so he
34:42
still did pastoring without
34:45
the role of pastor. He certainly pastored me.
34:48
Um, and he's pastoring my son so
34:51
he's pastoring my husband. Um, and so
34:54
I feel like to not be
34:56
dismayed simply because the title
34:59
is gone doesn't mean that
35:02
calling is gone. It just might need
35:05
to be lived out in a different way.
35:07
>> Loren: Yeah.
35:08
>> Ariana Malloy: And I think going back to the caller and saying,
35:11
I feel like you want me to do this, and I, um, don't see space
35:14
for this. Show me how. So part of it is just
35:17
remembering that the calling is
35:19
not lost because the relationship with the
35:22
caller is still there and he is faithful and
35:25
trustworthy. Now, it does require us doing a little
35:28
more work sometimes, and it doesn't always look how we want it to
35:31
look.
35:31
Um, so the other thing I would say, if you're in that vocationally
35:34
lost spot, is build your board of directors. If you've
35:37
not yet done this, um, think of a personal board
35:40
of three to five people. Literally take the
35:43
time to think about who you want,
35:46
why you would want them on your personal board, and then what
35:49
would be the questions you would ask them? Now I even
35:52
think you can have people on there who you don't know. You know, like
35:55
CS Lewis is on my personal board of directors.
35:58
Um, Dallas Willard. Right. Um, Richard J.
36:01
Foster. I don't know them personally. I will go to
36:04
them. I will go to their literature and seek knowledge that
36:07
way. I also have some actual people that I know.
36:10
And so building your board of directors and then
36:12
intentionally, uh, and routinely
36:15
connecting with them, whether it's through a podcast. I mean, you,
36:18
Loren, might be the board of director for people, and they listen
36:21
to your podcast, and so that's part of their
36:23
guidance. But we cannot thrive
36:26
without community. Yeah,
36:29
Wise kings, as Proverbs says, have
36:32
wise counselors, we cannot thrive without community. We're
36:35
not supposed to do this on our own.
36:37
And, you know, we haven't really gotten into this part. But one of the other things
36:40
that take us to toxic burnout is
36:43
something called sustained or chronic stress.
36:46
So you're talking about like, you know, the pandemic and stuff. What really
36:49
impacted a lot of people is that
36:51
stress was no longer like a, uh, seasonal stress. It
36:54
was like long term stress. And when that happens,
36:58
three specific things happen to our
37:00
communication in particular that cause
37:03
massive breakdown. And one of them is just
37:06
a reduced awareness, you know, in a heightened, ah, state
37:09
of stress. We're literally hardwired to fight
37:12
flight or freeze, you know, and we see in a tunnel
37:14
vision. But we're not meant to live like that
37:17
long term. And so sometimes
37:20
we miss things. We need community
37:23
to help us when we're missing things.
37:26
Shame is a lot quieter and a lot less powerful when
37:29
we live in community. I mean, Bernie Brown talks about
37:32
this. You know, when we, when we name it, it's a lot less powerful.
37:35
It loses its power. And I think that, um, I
37:38
think you can look at every part of scripture and see evidence of
37:41
the health of living in community. But
37:43
the problem is when we're in pain, we withdraw.
37:45
>> Loren: That's.
37:46
>> Ariana Malloy: That's one of the other parts of living in sustained stress
37:49
or chronic stress is we withdraw. And withdrawal is not
37:52
necessarily a bad thing. For a time, that can actually be important. But you
37:54
have to communicate that you're doing it and then return to your
37:57
community.
37:58
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah, this is all good stuff.
38:00
Uh, I'm curious, too. As I think about this
38:03
in my own life, what has been helpful for me is
38:06
clarification around what is
38:09
actually my calling. And I'm curious, like, thinking about,
38:12
like, your father's example,
38:15
because, uh, like I would have said, like, five,
38:18
10 years ago, like, my calling is pastor. Like, it's
38:21
like the title of pastor. And I'm wondering
38:24
if my calling is like, to serve the church,
38:27
which is different. It's similar, but different.
38:30
And it can be lived out far different ways.
38:33
I'm, uh, curious for your father,
38:37
even more broadly speaking, for other leaders you've worked with.
38:42
>> Ariana Malloy: Yeah. Sorry, can you ask me the question again?
38:45
>> Loren: Yeah, just like, if it helps, kind of clarifying or
38:48
redefining what your calling actually is or.
38:50
>> Ariana Malloy: For sure. And I think that, um, you know, one of the
38:54
necessary things we have to do in a healthy calling,
38:57
and I know this is really basic, so I'm not going to shock you with this
39:00
piece of news. Okay? One of the things we have to do, we
39:03
have to rest. We have to stabbith.
39:06
That's one of the three essential things in healthy,
39:08
humble calling. And
39:11
the reason I say this is that you
39:14
cannot have times of reflection if you don't
39:17
take time to rest. And you cannot make a change
39:20
or course correction if you don't have time for reflection.
39:23
So part of reorienting
39:26
and checking back in with how our calling
39:29
is doing is we have to slow down
39:32
long enough to pay attention. And, uh,
39:35
especially for people in ministry, actually,
39:37
taking time to rest is super complicated.
39:40
It's just complicated. Um, but you know what? It's also
39:43
complicated for other people. I've interviewed and worked with hospital
39:46
executives and hospital staff. If they take
39:49
a break in their mind, someone dies.
39:51
>> Loren: Yeah. Yeah.
39:53
>> Ariana Malloy: Like, really? And so I think
39:56
it's important that we don't Elevate certain jobs as like, well, if I. If
39:59
I rest, this job, this holy job is, you
40:02
know, people are going to get hurt. Guess what? A lot of people feel
40:04
that way. That's one of the kind of
40:07
glorifying ways of work that we need to get out of.
40:10
We have humility in Micah 6, 8.
40:13
It tells us to walk with God, we need to walk humbly with
40:16
God. And humility means knowing that
40:19
we can step away for a moment and life
40:22
will keep going. And if it doesn't, we are actually
40:25
way controlling things. We shouldn't be controlling. You
40:28
know, it's not a healthy thing. Jim Collins, in his famous book Good
40:30
to Great, talks about the difference between a good leader
40:33
and a great leader. A good leader, if they take a break from
40:36
their work or their job, everything falls
40:39
apart. A great leader, if they take a break from
40:42
it, things still go on because people have delegated.
40:45
They know their role, they know what's going on.
40:48
So I think that going back to needing time to
40:51
reflect, I would say to you, Loren, uh, that every
40:53
week I have to reorient my calling. By
40:56
the time I get to the end of my week, enough other messages
40:59
and tendencies and being pulled in different directions have
41:02
gotten to my head and my heart. And if I don't take time to
41:05
Sabbath, which I'm usually terrible at, by the way, I've
41:08
been Sabbathing for 15 years and I'm still not great at it.
41:11
Um, but I pursue it because I
41:14
know I need to surrender my time. I
41:17
need to surrender my focus. John Mark Comer talks about the
41:19
worries, the wants, and the work that
41:22
consume us. We have to take a break from that
41:25
so we can listen to the Holy Spirit and say,
41:27
father, what do I need to know right now?
41:31
Show me where I've been. Uh, a blessing this week. And show
41:34
me where I've failed, and show me what to do about it. Where am I holding
41:36
on too tightly? And where do I need to let go?
41:39
>> Loren: Yeah, this is all good stuff here. I want to ask you two
41:42
more questions before we take a break. One is
41:45
just when we think about, especially in church
41:48
context, my goodness.
41:51
Uh, this metaphor as work is family.
41:54
Tell us why this is such a
41:57
problematic metaphor and what we can do
42:01
if. Because, I mean, I feel like even in church context, it's
42:04
like work as family is almost like. It's like.
42:07
It's not just like. Because there's.
42:09
I mean, theologically we would say, like, yes, we're the body of
42:12
Christ. We are siblings in Christ.
42:15
Um, for a pastor like, you know, we'd
42:18
say that's my, that's my sibling in Christ that I'm trying to
42:21
serve. But also, like, I
42:24
don't know if, like, they're not my flesh and blood per se,
42:28
like, I gotta go see my kids, for instance, or my spouse
42:31
or whatever. Like, talk through that.
42:33
>> Ariana Malloy: Uh, yeah, this is a really complicated
42:36
and contentious conversation, or it could be at least,
42:39
but I don't think it needs to be.
42:41
Um, work is
42:43
not your family because you don't fire your family.
42:48
So that's where it gets problematic. Now, I want to have a big asterisk when
42:51
I'm talking about this because I have studied some organizations. I've
42:54
actually worked with some organizations. I can think of
42:57
one in particular that lives out the family metaphor
43:00
beautifully. Now here's why.
43:03
Because in that model of family, everyone has a
43:05
say. They are family in the good times and the bad
43:08
times. So it's not just, oh, you're family, you better agree
43:11
with me, right M. Dad or mom are saying, you need to do
43:14
this, so you as the child need to agree. That's
43:17
not how it was communicated in this particular organization.
43:20
In this type of organization, family was used
43:23
to say, we are so in this together that if you're not
43:26
okay, I'm not okay, let's be okay together.
43:29
And in this particular organization, the turnover was
43:32
so little. People have worked there for 30, 40,
43:35
50 years because they felt taken
43:38
care of. And I also think that, um, family
43:41
owned businesses are their own complexity. So I just want to say the big
43:44
asterisk there. But generally
43:46
speaking, we do need to stop using that metaphor unless
43:49
we're going to live it out like that. That because we can be a
43:52
community, we can be a team. You can find
43:55
any other metaphor you want. But
43:58
it's really important. We don't throw out the metaphor of family all the time.
44:01
Because when you do fire someone, let someone
44:04
go, move them to a different part of the company,
44:07
and you use that metaphor, that's
44:09
manipulative. And it doesn't allow for
44:12
people to respond, to have a different opinion.
44:15
It then severs them. Did, uh, they get divorced from the
44:18
family? If they got fired, can they still be part of the
44:21
family? And so I think as Christians, we
44:24
are a family, but in the
44:26
workplace and that gets really hard because
44:29
when you work with your friends and you work in a church or a Christian
44:32
organization, it's very complicated.
44:34
But I would encourage people to resist using that metaphor.
44:37
Really figure out what do you mean when you say that? And is there another
44:40
Word or phrase you can use because we are a
44:43
tight knit group. That's great to say.
44:46
But again, in the family metaphor, there's a very clear mom and
44:49
dad and you are always part of the
44:52
family. Whether you're adopted in or you're birthed in, you
44:55
are part of the family. But that's just not possible
44:58
in a workplace. That's just not the context of work.
45:01
>> Loren: Yeah, that's good.
45:03
Okay, one last question before we take a break.
45:05
Uh, Arianna teaches and
45:07
studies organizational communication,
45:11
uh, outside of this book. So
45:13
share if you can just, I don't know, one or two
45:17
thoughts, hints, uh, ideas for
45:19
organizations or churches, whatever, however you want to take
45:22
this, that may be common mistakes that
45:25
really could be improved to help organizations
45:28
do better in their communications.
45:30
>> Ariana Malloy: Great. Yeah. So one of the things I get to do outside of being a
45:33
professor is I work as a consultant or, uh, I help do training
45:36
workshops for organizations and churches and
45:39
um, specifically on healthy communication in the workplace.
45:42
And that is a whole array of things, but it's about
45:45
healthy conflict in the workplace. How do you approach
45:47
that? Learning about conflict styles, healthy
45:50
listening. So this is really interesting. There's four types of
45:53
listeners and, and if you identify what kind
45:56
of listener you are, you also know why you check out in
45:59
like meetings and places. So then you're
46:02
responsible for checking back in or making the ask like, hey,
46:05
this thing right here is not happening. Can we, can we do it this
46:08
way? So knowing yourself that way. Healthy
46:10
communication is in the workplace also involves knowing how to
46:13
communicate with empathy. You know, Gallup did a
46:16
study several years in a row
46:19
that basically said 80% of
46:22
people would work more hours
46:25
with less pay if they knew they had an
46:28
empathetic boss. I'm going to say that again.
46:32
More hours, less pay
46:35
if they knew they had an empathetic boss. Empathy is not
46:38
lip service. It is slowing down long
46:40
enough to make sure that person feels seen and
46:43
heard. And if you have the power to take
46:46
action, you take action on their behalf.
46:49
And so those are some, um, practical things. I also teach
46:51
nonverbal communication. 70% of communication
46:54
is non verbal approximately. And learning what that
46:57
means in the workplace is really key. There's also things like, like
47:00
what is your shared goal in the workplace? For example, I was
47:03
talking to a VP recently who said, you know, it's really important to me
47:06
that people respond to emails in 24 hours. And
47:09
we were like talking about, have you made that clear to people?
47:12
Because if not, guess what? Over communication is your very
47:15
best friend in the workplace. Over
47:17
Communication. Communicating something
47:19
multiple times is your very best friend,
47:22
because everyone has a million things going on in their head, and
47:25
especially if they're not part of your direct report. You might have
47:28
thought you've said it once enough, twice enough, three times
47:31
enough, but they might need to hear it seven times. Usually, people
47:33
need to hear something seven times
47:37
before it really sets in. So
47:40
there's all sorts of ways that you can approach communicating in the
47:42
workplace to garner more cohesion,
47:45
a greater sense of motivation, to figure out why
47:48
these, like, side conversations on a different text thread
47:51
or, like, at the water cooler are happening when they shouldn't be. They should be
47:54
happening in the meeting. Um, and I think, again,
47:57
communication is. It's like the air that we breathe. We don't
48:00
notice it till it stops working, but it's super essential.
48:03
>> Loren: Well, I look forward to your next book, then, on organizational
48:06
communication.
48:08
Uh, Ariana's book is Healthy Calling From
48:11
Toxic Burnout to Sustainable Work. Really recommend
48:13
it. Let's take a quick break, and we'll come back with some
48:16
closing questions.
48:21
All right, we're back with Arianna Malloy.
48:24
>> Ariana Malloy: Dr.
48:24
>> Loren: Uh, Arianna Malloy, thank you so much for this
48:27
conversation. Really appreciate your insights. Uh,
48:29
closing questions. We always tell folks you can take these as seriously or not
48:32
as you'd like to, but, uh, if you're Pope for a day,
48:35
what do you want to do with that day?
48:39
>> Ariana Malloy: I m. Would love to see early childhood education be better
48:42
for all people. I think, um, for families,
48:45
in terms of knowing how to help
48:48
develop and cultivate their kids from 0 to 8 years old
48:51
is really essential. And I don't know why people assume that
48:54
just because you have a kid, you know what to do with them.
48:57
It's a very lonely and challenging experience
49:00
sometimes, and so I'd love to see more support for that across the
49:03
entire world. Um, I think
49:05
that it would be really great if
49:08
we could change the way we treat people who are retired
49:12
and who are done with their primary work.
49:15
I think we, as a society in particular, really devalue
49:18
one of the most essential populations, and we miss out on
49:21
their treasure. And we're also responsible
49:24
for the increased loneliness that exists in that
49:27
population. And that's a shame. And as in the church, we need to do
49:30
better and not relegate them to the corners of the
49:33
space.
49:33
>> Loren: This is good. Okay, real quick, then. Uh,
49:36
practically speaking, any, like, thoughts for the Pope on
49:38
Pope communication?
49:42
>> Ariana Malloy: I. I, um, suppose treat it like it's
49:45
as essential as medicine. Um, you know,
49:48
as a professor in communication undergrad, people like, oh,
49:51
communication. What are you going to do with that? And it's like, what can't you do with that?
49:54
And what's crazy to me, I wish I could just, like, put it on a
49:57
tape recorder or tape recorder. I now show my age. I wish I could put
50:00
it on repeat. Um, just that a
50:03
couple years after people graduate, they come back to me and they
50:05
say, oh, my gosh, everything you taught me in
50:08
communication, I'm using on a daily basis. Uh, but you just
50:11
don't see it because it feels like it should be
50:14
obvious, but it's most of the time the obvious things that get us into
50:17
trouble because we don't do them well.
50:18
>> Loren: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. A historical Christian figure
50:21
you want to meet or bring back to life.
50:24
>> Ariana Malloy: Okay. I don't know if I can choose between
50:27
them. Um, I love Peter from the Bible. I
50:30
love him so much. Um, also John,
50:33
also Mary. I feel like she is such
50:36
an interesting person. I would love to know more about her,
50:39
certainly C.S. lewis. I don't know if you would frame Jane
50:42
Austen as a Christian figure, but she, to me, is a
50:45
phenomenal, ah, figure in the development identity
50:48
of women in particular. Um, so those would
50:50
be. I mean, let's be real. C.S. lewis would be
50:53
my very first choice, but maybe C.S. lewis and Peter, I don't know.
50:56
>> Loren: Sure. A dinner party perhaps.
50:58
>> Ariana Malloy: Ooh, fun.
50:59
>> Loren: Yeah. Uh, what do you think history will remember from our current time
51:02
and place?
51:05
>> Ariana Malloy: That is a really profound question, and I think
51:08
that. I don't know if I know how to answer that in a lighthearted way, because I feel
51:10
like at this point in the world, people have lost their minds
51:14
a little bit.
51:15
>> Loren: Well, it's.
51:15
>> Ariana Malloy: Our world is really crazy.
51:19
>> Loren: Let's leave it there, because that's actually a profound way of
51:21
saying it that, um, let's say
51:24
this more hopefully. What do you hope for the future of
51:27
Christianity?
51:29
>> Ariana Malloy: I hope for the future of Christianity that we
51:32
stay true to what the definition of biblical love is.
51:36
It is not a, uh, it's not for one type of person. It's for all
51:39
of us. Love is kind. Love is patient. It is
51:42
not easily angered. It keeps no record of wrong. I
51:45
also love the definition of wisdom that the Bible gives us.
51:48
We are meant to be peacemakers, and we are
51:51
called to live in peace. Colossians 5 says that.
51:54
So I would love if we, as Christians, truly
51:57
people, would know who we are by how we love
52:00
others.
52:01
>> Loren: That's good. Uh, share how people can connect with
52:04
you. Get the book, all that.
52:06
>> Ariana Malloy: Yeah. Uh, the easiest way is to Go to my website, which is
52:08
arianamilloy.com on that website you can sign
52:11
up for newsletters and resources or not. You can
52:14
see a bunch of my talks. You can see other things that we do. You can order the
52:17
book on Amazon or Barnes and Noble or some other different, um,
52:20
options. And, um, if you just have a question you want to ask me, I
52:23
will totally, I would love to engage.
52:25
>> Loren: Well, I really appreciate this conversation. So meaningful for me
52:28
and I hope for our listeners. Uh, one of the things we always do on our
52:31
podcast is a communication practice of, of
52:34
leaving people saying a word of peace to folks. So may
52:37
God's peace be with you.
52:39
>> Ariana Malloy: Thank you. And you as well.
52:47
>> Loren: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast.
52:51
The Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate
52:53
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52:56
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52:59
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53:17
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