Latest / Equine Assisted World with Rupert Isaacson / Art, Prison, and the Path to Freedom | Russell Craig | EAW 57

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Art, Prison, and the Path to Freedom | Russell Craig | EAW 57 · Equine Assisted World with Rupert Isaacson

0:00
Rupert Isaacson: Welcome to Equine Assisted World.
0:02
I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson, New York Times best selling
0:05
author of The Horse Boy, The Long Ride Home, and The Healing Land.
0:08
Before I jump in with today's guest, I just want to say a huge
0:12
thank you to you, our audience, for helping to make this happen.
0:15
I have a request.
0:16
If you like what we do, please like, subscribe, tell a friend.
0:22
It really helps us get this work done.
0:24
As you might know from my books, I'm an autism dad.
0:27
And over the last 20 years, we've developed several
0:31
equine assisted, neuroscience backed certification programs.
0:35
If you'd like to find out more about them, go to newtrailslearning.
0:40
com.
0:41
So without further ado, let's meet today's guest.
0:44
I am very honored and excited to have Russell Craig on today.
0:50
He is an artist who is just beginning to explore the equestrian world, but
0:55
has a lot to say and a lot to teach us about working with the foster system,
1:03
and kids in the foster system, and also inmates, and then also people who come
1:10
out of jail, and how they are going to rebuild their lives, and what can we as
1:16
equine practitioners learn and offer, and how should we be approaching this.
1:22
And this is slightly new territory for me because, of course, a- most of you
1:26
who know my story know that predominantly I started with autism, and then moved
1:31
from there rather naturally into trauma and PTSD and veterans and so on.
1:37
Other neuropsychiatric conditions.
1:38
But because this world of the foster system and incarceration and so forth is
1:44
new to me, I, like anyone who is sane, would want to be mentored by the people
1:51
who know this system from the inside, rather than coming at it with a series of
1:58
opinions which are completely unfounded because it's outside my experience.
2:03
And I think that this is true for all of us in the equine-assisted world.
2:07
The more we're ment- mentored by the people who we are here to serve, the more
2:12
likely we are to be able to serve them in the way that is actually beneficial.
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And if we don't look for that mentorship from the populations we serve, we're
2:21
always gonna be hampered and hamstrung.
2:23
So, Russell, thank you so much for coming on the show.
2:27
You are a successful artist now living between Philadelphia and the
2:33
Wellington equestrian scene, which many of us know is a, it's sort of
2:39
its own can of worms in many ways.
2:41
So it's, this is fascinating.
2:43
And you, your story, of course, can inform us.
2:45
So without further ado, welcome, and can you just tell us who you are, how
2:51
you got here, and what we should know?
2:57
Russell Craig: Well, I'd like to thank you before I begin, for having me.
3:00
And, I'm just a guy coming from Philadelphia.
3:03
Had a rough start very early on.
3:05
Oh, and I'm, I'm back and forth from Florida to New York, but
3:10
I'm originally from Philadelphia.
3:11
Got it.
3:11
But I'm more like Florida, New York.
3:14
Okay.
3:14
And since about the age of five is when I was placed in the foster care system
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and was there for a number of years.
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I th- I believe I was, like, 12 around the age when I like, ran away from
3:27
one of the placements that I was at.
3:28
And I was in the group homes and all kinds of stuff all, all of my younger years.
3:33
And then around, like, 12 or so, 12, 13 or so is when I, like, ran away.
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Then I just was, like, in the streets.
3:39
And then with that comes, like, hustling and things like that drug
3:43
dealing, cocaine and things like that, smoking weed and things.
3:47
And then, I got locked up in a juvenile, like, lockup facility.
3:51
I think I was, like, 14.
3:54
Just d- like, kinda doing that in and out of that kind of
3:58
situations for, for a hot second.
4:00
And, like, 19, 20 is when I hit prison, real prison, and did a number of years.
4:06
I did a total of 12 years in prison, and not straight.
4:09
On the last stay in prison I, I did seven years.
4:13
So, all through that time, you know, I was always into art
4:16
even when I was, like, a kid.
4:18
But once, when, around the age of 12 and things, when I was, like,
4:21
running the streets, I I kinda, like, got away from art a bit.
4:25
But once I went into the prison system, I reconnected with art because I use
4:29
art as, like, a way to block out, like, the situation, like, or being
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in that kinda environment and things.
4:35
And then it just allowed me to, like, escape and have a focus and
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not be, like caught up in anything.
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Like, I didn't even participate in, like, a lot of the day-to-day
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activities, like, basketball.
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And I would lift weights and things like that sometimes, but I wasn't really into
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the, like, the day-to-day normal routine.
4:56
And it was other people locked up that was also like me that was, like, really into
5:02
whatever their interest was, their craft.
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Like, if some would work out, would, like, would work out really deep,
5:07
really, like, intensely be into it.
5:10
And you had a lot of guys that, like, studied law really good to
5:12
the point where a few of them got out and was walkin'- working with
5:15
law, law firms and things like that.
5:17
And then you had, like, a number of artists.
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You had some, like, really amazing artists.
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Like, like, for an example, this one artist, he would make like,
5:24
these sculptures out of soap, and they would, like, look so crazy.
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Like, you wouldn't even know that that was soap if he wouldn't
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have told you they was soap.
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He did this one that was, like, this big eagle, and it was like, I don't
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know how he took different pieces of soap and made it one thing so, like,
5:38
big and sturdy and things like that.
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It was pretty interesting.
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I, I w- I don't even know his methods of putting that together, but that's
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just, like, giving you an example.
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So myself, I was just a- Doing a lot of portraits and things like that because
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I me coming from, like, the foster care situation, I never had, like, family.
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'Cause you could be, like, in a foster care setting and still have,
6:00
like, family where you go visit or they maybe visit you or whatever.
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But I, like, didn't really have a family dynamic, like, really like that at all.
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And then the, the family that I did have was all, like, in the
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streets and things like that, and was like into negative things.
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So when I would get with them, you would get re- reintrodu- or, or, or, or back in
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the circle of of, like, the streets and things that's, like, negative that can
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end you, end you up in prison or worse.
6:25
So art was, like, a way to, to, like, really, like, just escape that
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in a lot of different ways, like mentally and also, like, actually.
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Like, like literally, like, separating me from those s- from those worlds.
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And then if we wanna fast-forward to, likeâ¦
6:41
And then a- after I got out, I started doing murals in Philly
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before I moved to New York.
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And with, And truly, like, blessed.
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I think, I think people should, should understand too, like,
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especially, like, now, it continues.
6:54
It continues.
6:54
I won't even get into recent things that happened, but I'll just generally
6:58
try to explain that when you get on, like, the path you're supposed to
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be on, like, things start happening.
7:07
And then it's like you can manifest things, you can have plans, and then
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it be like some things they come happen that be b- that be beyond you.
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And I am a living, like, testimony to that.
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Because once we get into the, the, the, the, the the portion of this
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conversation where we wanna talk about, like, how I started to get
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success with the with the art.
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Like, some of it just was like you'd be amazed at, like, how things
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just you couldn't even plan it.
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You'd just be on that path and be like, "This what I'ma do.
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I'ma do this art.
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I want my art to have some kinda intentions with, like, inspiring
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and helping other people.
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Also take care of myself where if I don't have to do anything that's
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breaking the law or anything like that, and also following my passion."
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You know, that's the, that's the path.
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And then other things come your way that's, like, beyond myself
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is how I would explain it.
7:55
So yeah, like when I got out of prison, I was doing murals in Philadelphia
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to the point where I was, like, on the news, got invited to the
8:01
White House, all kinds of stuff.
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And things was happening, like, pretty fast.
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It didn't take, like, a long time because I had these, like, dreams
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and goals and things like that, aspirations and manifestation-type
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mindset when I was in prison.
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Like, I had the vision.
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I told people.
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Like, Iâ¦
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And, and one of the projects that I did when I got out of prison was on the
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African American Museum, and I called it Prophesize because I basically, likeâ¦
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And that still was early on, but for, at that, around that time, like, oh,
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I got a mural in the African American Museum in Philadelphia was like a big
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thing for me to be coming, like, from the streets and, like, have no kind of
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connection to anything art related, and to be recognized and to be given that
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kind of opportunity, which is crazy.
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Then around that time, I did a show with the Democratic National Convention in
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2015, and it was all these, like, star artists involved, and I was, like, a
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no-name, like, no never heard of me.
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And it was already crazy that somehow I was able to be in,
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in participating in that show.
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But then also was, like, my pieces was, was really well-received by the people.
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Like, and it happened quite a few times, too, where my work was really appreciated,
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like, beyond my, you know, expectation.
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Like, I didn't think that people would, like, like the work like that.
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Or another example here in Wellington, like, a lot of people
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love the work, and they're coming from another, you know, kind of
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background, like a different world.
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And for them to appreciate the work and appreciate the story of, like, how
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I triumphed over, like, streets and no family and prison and all that kind of
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stuff, and to be to this level where I'm in quite a number of museums' permanent
9:33
collections and things like that, Emmy Award-winning for a documentary that
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I was in, and it just, like, the list kind of goes on and keep continuing
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because there's new stuff coming.
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So, yeah, and then I just, like, basically keep my focus on that and
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just keep pushing, never get content.
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You know what I mean?
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There's always room for improvement, and just keep, likeâ¦
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Like, I was gonna do some work last night, and I'm glad I didn't rush it.
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I was gonna, like, rush some stuff.
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I had the initial idea, and then I'm like, "Let me pump this out."
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It was a lot of work to do, a lot of things, deadlines and stuff, a
10:08
lot of stuff going on right now.
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But then I had to slow it down and and really think about,
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like, what to do, you know?
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So, like, that's another thing too.
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People should, like, take their time.
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You don't wanna procrastinate and, like, you know, take too much time, but
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then you also don't wanna rush things because when, when I, when I set with
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ideas and things, I really had a clearer vision of, like, what to execute.
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So, like, you know, take a moment to get, gather yourself and, and, and,
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and, Like, I don't wanna say slow walking, 'cause you don't wanna go
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too slow either, 'cause you, you gotta seize moments and stuff like that.
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But it just go with the flow, just be in the flow, get on a proper path.
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And, like, when we had that conversation and you y'all brought to my attention
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that y'all do horses therapeutic, like work with the, with the formerly
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incarcerated or individuals and also, like, foster kids, it's like, bro,
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it's right up my alley 'cause I come from those two backgrounds, and then
11:01
now here I am in in equestrian space.
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I have a gift right here that somebody gave me, a crystal horse.
11:08
One of my collectors or whatever.
11:10
It's really nice.
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But it's like this is the world we in now, so it's like, it's awesome to have
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the opportunity, and I'm really looking forward to, like, what we could put
11:20
together and, like, traveling to the, like, places you be and, like, really
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showing the world Like this, and then it is really the opportunity to take the
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art and, and, and, and bring it to people that, you know, probably wouldn't reach.
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And I'm saying particularly my art and the things that I'm, like, trying to
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highlight, and then we have, like, the horses and then the work that we doing.
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So I really thinkâ¦
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And then the different cities and countries and things we
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gonna be in with this, I really am excited about all of this.
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So I'm glad that in my path that everything that I
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experienced, ups and downs of it.
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Then another thing I've been noticing, I've been noticing a lot
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of, like, when things been going bad, it be, like, a good part to it.
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I used to always lean towards, like, "Oh, I can't believe this
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happened," blah, blah, blah, right?
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But then it be, like, look at whatâ¦
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If you really take a minute and look at everything, it be, like, a reason.
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Sometimes something crazy'll happen to st- to, to, like, stop
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you from going a certain place.
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Like, maybe you was not supposed to go to this place, or something would
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come and sabotage your whole thing.
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And I be looking at the, the big picture, and and it's like sometime
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things be aligned that way.
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So with all that being said, I go back to what I was saying about, like, my path.
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Like, it's really feeling good to be, like, where we are, and I'm, like,
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very excited about things in the future and things we could put together.
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And not just us-
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Rupert Isaacson: Right.
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So absolutely.
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I, I just want to sort of, for the, the listeners who are wondering what we might
12:43
be referring to there just f- so full disclosure, listeners and, and watchers
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so Russell and his friend Will and our own amazing Leanna Tank those of you who
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know her or don't know her, you should look for our, our recent podcast with
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her are talking about adapting what we do with Horse Boy, a movement method,
13:05
and TAKIN towards a project with foster kids people in incarceration, and people
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coming out of incarceration because this seems to be kind of a funnel, the
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foster care to the school to the prison funnel, which I think a lot of people
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are aware of and needs to be addressed, but without the right without the
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right mentorship, there's no chance.
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But with, with Russell coming in here, I think we have the guidance to, to do that.
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So it's quite exciting.
13:34
But Russell, I just want to ask you so your world was not
13:37
an equestrian world at all.
13:38
And when I met you by chance, well, through a mutual acquaintance a couple of
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months ago in Wellington, I was thinking, "What are you doing in Wellington?"
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You know, because there's, there's many different types of equestrian
13:50
environment out there in the USA.
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But Wellington is known for being the sort of height of privileged East Coast
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money and the international sports scene.
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It's not known as a place for therapy or good works particularly, although
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there are a lot of philanthropists there.
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It's known really for sport and wealth.
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So I was intrigued that you were there in a studio.
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And when I connected with your work and looked at your work, I was
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like, "Wow, this is really good."
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I mean, you were talking about, oh, well, you know, it seemed quite
14:27
surprising perhaps, or out of nowhere that your work got recognized.
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But when I was looking at it in the studio, I was like, "Well, I can
14:32
see why this work is recognized," 'cause it's just like top-notch art.
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And for anyone who's, you know, listening or, or watching, you
14:40
should look up Russell Craig's art.
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It's, it's phenomenally good.
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And I'm a snob because my mom's an artist
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So I, I, I won't say something is good if, if I don't think it is.
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I'll just politely talk about something else.
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But Russell, your art is really, really good, and your equestrian
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art is really, really good.
14:55
And it's, itâ¦
14:57
When you're drawing and painting horses, it's as if you had a knowledge
15:02
of horses and an eye for a horse, which you didn't grow up with.
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But for me as a horseman, I'm like, "Wow, he really sees the movement
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and the expression of the horse.
15:13
This is interesting to me."
15:14
So why are you here in this equestrian space?
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What has drawn you in?
15:19
What, yeah, whatâ¦
15:22
It, it's intriguing to me
15:25
Russell Craig: Well, it goes back to what I was saying earlier about, like,
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there's been quite a few situations in which, like, some things happen
15:31
and it don't be like my plans.
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Like, I had no knowledge of, like, Wellington.
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It was my connection to Will Will Tamita that I met a number of years ago in
15:41
Palm Beach with New Wave that was aâ¦
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I was invited to come do a, a speech.
15:46
And around that time I was doing, like, a lot of traveling and, and doing, like,
15:49
panel talks and things like that at, like, Harvard, Yale number of places.
15:54
Like, I can't even give you the whole rundown.
15:56
But yeah, it was, He re- reached out to me.
15:59
It happened to be, I just yesterday got all my stuff out the World Trade
16:03
Center, for that was my studio in New York for three years, and it's just been
16:08
really, really deep to, like, for this transition, like, connecting this to y-
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your question of, like, how I got here, and like now I'm, like, really here.
16:15
Mm.
16:16
I'm likeâ¦
16:17
You know, I got with Will.
16:18
We had a show.
16:19
First we had a show in in- Will
16:20
Rupert Isaacson: owns the gallery in in, in Wellington where you are and
16:24
sitting right now talking to us from.
16:26
Yeah.
16:26
Yeah.
16:26
Russell Craig: Yeah.
16:27
He's my gallery representation, him and his partner John.
16:31
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
16:32
Russell Craig: His partner.
16:33
And and, Yeah, like, we did the Armory Show.
16:35
He he was in the area in New York, was conducting some business,
16:38
and I popped in his head.
16:40
And which is, is interesting 'cause we haven't seen each other in years,
16:43
but, And then also, like, somehow he, he remembered that Silver Arts
16:48
residency in the World Trade Center building three was, like, a thing.
16:52
So he like, "Oh, I wonder if Russ was still there," which was interesting
16:56
'cause it was only supposed to have been a year residency in
16:59
which I winded up doing three.
17:00
So when he showed up, it could have been a strong possibility
17:03
that I wouldn't have been there.
17:04
He messaged me too and DM'd me on Instagram, and I'm
17:07
like, "Yeah, I'm up here now."
17:08
And I was working on my Prison Door series.
17:11
This is, like, an example, this one right here.
17:12
I was working on one of those.
17:15
It was when I was, like, beginning that work.
17:17
And he was like, "This should be exhibited."
17:20
And he was like, he was already having plans on trying to like well, he got the
17:23
gallery es- established, and it was, like, a new gallery here in Wellington, but
17:27
his reach goes outside of just Florida.
17:30
So, like, that's why he was, like, in New York handling business and
17:32
then happened to, like, think of me and wanted to see what I was up to.
17:36
And I was working on some work that wasn't really being shown like that.
17:39
Beth De Woody from Palm Beach, she's a big collect- collector, and she had
17:43
collected the piece and exhibited in Palm Beach at The Bunker, where she has
17:48
an exhibition every year that's, like, really well-known, really well-respected.
17:53
So being collected by her was really helpful.
17:56
And then we did a show in The Armory.
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He was like, "Yo, this work should be shown.
18:00
Is you with anybody representing all that?"
18:02
I'm like, "No, I'm, like, been doing it for myself for the last few years."
18:05
I had representation in Chelsea for a hot second, and things didn't
18:08
work out and kind of fell apart.
18:10
My galleries then, he had issues in which he couldn't continue the gallery.
18:14
He also had a space in Aspen, Colorado, and when that, like, kind of fell apart,
18:19
I kind of just was on my own with it.
18:21
And him showing up, I'm like, "Yeah, I'm ready.
18:22
Let's do it."
18:23
I've been making these works, you know, just in case, you know, just,
18:26
just, like, just to be making them, and that's how I was inspired to
18:29
do where they didn't really have no place that where the work was going
18:32
or I didn't have any representation.
18:34
So we had Armory is a respected art, art exhibition that
18:37
happens in New York every year.
18:40
So we put together a show and it w- it went really well.
18:43
Sold everything.
18:45
And it j- and it was well received.
18:46
Like the people, the visitors and things like that really connected with the
18:49
work that, that you see right here.
18:51
This isâ¦
18:51
It was, you know, similar, all the pieces.
18:53
That's
18:53
Rupert Isaacson: a prison door behind you, right?
18:54
A cell door.
18:55
Yeah.
18:56
Russell Craig: Yeah.
18:56
Yeah.
18:57
Abstracted,
18:57
Rupert Isaacson: Mm
18:58
â¦ Russell Craig: solitary confinement series is, is more abstracted.
19:02
And then, the the the, the more common prison doors have like a
19:06
slot where I'll have like a, a face that's representational of like,
19:10
a inmate being behind on bars.
19:12
And then also I'm working on like some new works where I'm like touching on how
19:16
not only, let's say you didn't go through the prison system like I did literally,
19:21
but we be in our own like prisons.
19:22
You could be trapped in like a job you don't want to be in.
19:24
You could be trapped in like a, a relationship or marriage
19:27
that's like feel like a prison.
19:29
So it's like different ways mentally you could be in chains.
19:33
So, with trauma and things like that and, and mental health and,
19:38
and things like that can be issues that can be holding you back.
19:41
So, like I'm- Mm â¦ I'm like making the work also touch on those like like
19:45
examples of that you could possibly be in prison in different ways.
19:48
Mm.
19:49
But then to bring it around, making it long-winded, but it's like then
19:52
we had a show, a follow-up show here.
19:54
'Cause we did well, well in the New Y- New York show, and then we had a show here
19:59
in Wellington, and then the people from Wellington came out and like supported.
20:04
A few of them like looked me up and they feel like my story is like
20:07
amazing, like how I triumphed over like the things that I, that I went
20:10
through and, and I feel that way too.
20:12
Like recently I really was putting thought to that of
20:15
like, like, wow, I did reallyâ¦
20:16
'cause in survival and just like trying to keep it going and, and making
20:21
things happen and just, you know, being an artist and trying to maintain
20:25
a- and continue success as an artist and also, you know, for a living and
20:29
things like that, I didn't get too caught up in like, like, I made it.
20:33
Like I don't be really in my mind like that, that too much.
20:36
But like lately I was thinking likeâ¦
20:38
And then I've been keeping it pretty consistent.
20:41
But I told you it would be beyond me.
20:43
It's like you do what you do, and then also it be forces that's beyond you, the
20:47
universe, God, whatever you wanna call it.
20:50
And it's been genuine.
20:51
You gotta be genuine and you gotta be thankful.
20:53
And I've been, I've been concentrating on the thankful.
20:56
Remember I told you I was like- When bad things would happen, I would,
21:00
like, really concentrate on it.
21:01
And I'm not h- I don't have it mastered.
21:03
From time to time I get aggravated and stuff like that.
21:05
Fair
21:05
Rupert Isaacson: wheel.
21:06
Yeah.
21:06
Russell Craig: I'm way better than I used to be, where I shift my mental.
21:10
I be like, I stay thankful and in a good spirit about the good stuff.
21:15
Like, I f- I shift my focus to what's good.
21:18
Mm.
21:18
And then I also look at, like, well, how is this beneficial?
21:21
Even though this is, like, a problematic situation, I try to look at, like,
21:26
like, where's the good in it?
21:28
And, and with all that- Where's the
21:29
Rupert Isaacson: awesome here?
21:30
That- that's a quote which I- Yeah â¦ yeah.
21:32
Russell Craig: Beautiful.
21:32
Yeah, yeah.
21:33
No, thatâ¦
21:34
No, it really works.
21:35
It really works.
21:36
Because and then it helps you to see that, like, it's even, like, a good
21:40
in the bad, if, if it makes sense.
21:43
When I was youngâ¦
21:44
It's Kona.
21:45
Kona, Kona feeling that.
21:46
Like, that's right.
21:48
That's right, Kona.
21:50
Kona knows.
21:51
Every time I'm having a conversation and it get to a deep part, Kona show love.
21:55
Like, yeah, that's right.
21:58
And that connects to them horses.
22:00
Like, you gotta, like, you gotta connect with them.
22:03
You can't just be jumping on somebody horse and you, you don't have no,
22:06
like, you don't have no kinda, like, re- re- respect for each
22:09
other or, like, an understanding.
22:10
And I'm, like, new to this, and but even when, when whenâ¦
22:14
First let me finish up you was like how I got to Weddington, 'cause then
22:16
I was about to get into, like, the horses and, 'cause you had said about,
22:20
Rupert Isaacson: like- Yeah, that's obviously the next question I want to ask
22:21
you, is what's your impression and, and what is your relationship with horses?
22:24
But let's finish up how you got here, and then let's go there.
22:27
Russell Craig: So, so we have a, a show in Armor on my in
22:30
Weddington in the clubhouse gallery.
22:32
And we have two spaces.
22:33
So we in aâ¦
22:34
This space right here is it has art and things like that, but this is
22:37
more of, like, the space where had, where we had our meeting and things.
22:40
Then the other space is, like, primarily gallery.
22:42
And that's where we had the show.
22:44
Did really well.
22:46
Connected with the people.
22:47
You know, they'd been inviting me to come at they other houses and
22:50
other coun- they got houses in other countries and all that stuff, and
22:53
it just been really, really good.
22:56
Like, really well received.
22:57
And then it was, it was them, like Will and others from Wellington was
23:01
like, "Yo, you should just move here."
23:03
'Cause I was thinking of, like, as I get more successful to I wanted to move
23:07
to Brazil and still do work in America.
23:11
You know, have my work shipped and, you know, paint while I'm
23:13
there and just do what I do.
23:14
But, but I wanted toâ¦
23:16
I had visited Brazil and I really liked it, and and the people who I shared
23:19
that with, that I was in thinking of that, they was like, "No, you should,
23:22
you should move here to Florida."
23:24
And it basically was you know, unanimous how everybody was like,
23:27
"You need to get out of New York."
23:29
Like, it was just, I was in New York for seven years, and it justâ¦
23:31
And I love New York.
23:32
I didn't have, like, no big problems that was, like, so crazy.
23:36
Like, Philly was, was, like, a problematic like, city, and
23:39
I needed to grow and move on.
23:41
And then, you know, I went to New York and a lot of great things
23:44
happened, and then it just was time.
23:45
Like, it like, it's, it's just how it works.
23:47
Like, theâ¦
23:48
And, and it's good to be, you need to be in tune so you know when to
23:51
go with the flow, when you know of, like, what's next and things.
23:55
So what was next was, was, was here, Wellington, Florida.
23:58
And was like, I've been, like, called here.
24:00
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
24:00
Russell Craig: Sometime you, you be summoned, you know?
24:03
So, so when we're here- So, so
24:05
Rupert Isaacson: here you are, right?
24:06
And you're now surrounded by horses and horsey people,
24:09
and you're looking at horses.
24:12
You're putting horses in your art.
24:14
What are you seeing?
24:16
What'sâ¦
24:16
T- t- talk to us about it through the lens of you.
24:19
Russell Craig: I mean, I don't wanna get all, all, all weird, so try
24:23
to fo- follow me, 'cause I'm very spiritual, you know what I'm saying?
24:26
So, Get as
24:26
Rupert Isaacson: weird as you want
24:28
Russell Craig: So like, I see the the horse absolutely as like a spirit animal.
24:33
Like, it's here in the physical realm, but it's, it's a
24:37
spiritual aspect to the horse.
24:39
It's to, like, everybody and everything, but what specifically, likeâ¦
24:44
And then also I, I see coming from, like, my experience, like, on, like,
24:49
freedom when you see the horse, especially, like, it running free, how
24:52
powerful it is and things like that.
24:55
But then how kind it can be, and then sometime they can be not unkind.
24:59
You know what I mean?
24:59
Things like that, and it's just likeâ¦
25:01
And then, then it's aspects of them being, like, in captivity-
25:05
Mm â¦ the same way that I've been.
25:07
So I, I would hope to, like, And then you have situations where
25:10
horses, there are some horses not being treated well and things like
25:13
that, so that what comes to my mind.
25:15
I'm always thinking about, like, how the similarities.
25:19
And then I had explained to you when we was in our meeting about,
25:22
like, how a private prison had, had, was built in Virginia, and they
25:27
they shipped us from Pennsylvania.
25:29
They shipped a number of us to this private prison, and they used
25:33
horse trailers that they converted into transportation vehicles.
25:37
So then that really, like, helps me to connect with like how some horses
25:42
are, like, in captivity, 'cause I was in the same trailers in whichâ¦
25:45
And then they treated me like an animal and, and, you know, us that
25:49
they transported like that because I don't know why with the, the prison
25:52
system being, like, a multi-billion dollar business that they couldn't
25:55
get, like, buses and things like that.
25:57
And they, and they did have, but they had more than one, so some of them was buses.
26:00
But why wasn't it all buses?
26:02
They had some that was, like, horse trailers converted into
26:05
transportation, which was, like, kind of strange to me, you know?
26:09
But Wellington helped me to look at the horses as, like, more in
26:12
a positive, 'cause everything out here is, like, pretty beautiful,
26:15
especially, like, seeing it jumping.
26:17
Will, he plays polo.
26:18
We went to some polo games and things like that.
26:21
I haven't had a chance to see the dressage yet, but I wanted to.
26:25
And it just, it just, it's just, like, a beautiful environment, so you
26:28
observe, go out there, observe it, and then, like, I try to, like, make that
26:32
connection 'cause with all my work, not just the horses, you, like, you
26:37
need to have, like, your soul, like, a part of myself is in it, right?
26:40
And then you have to capture- The spirit, like the soul, the spirit of the work.
26:46
'Cause then when you do that and be in, like, a p- try to be, like, in a
26:50
positive space, vibrate positive, and it kinda, it connects to the work.
26:57
Then I also, I went to go seeâ¦
26:59
I went to the MoMA, and there's a artist, Jack Whitten.
27:02
He passed away, but he's one of my favorite artists, and
27:05
his work was, like, so strong.
27:07
His, the, and the, and, like, I could feel the energy.
27:09
So I'm like, I'm talking about overwhelmingly, not, like, not kinda.
27:12
You know how sometimes you have these little feelings or whatever, you
27:14
get these little, like, signals or, or, or whatever they wanna call it?
27:18
But, like, with his work, it was very strong.
27:20
And then, then it taught me.
27:22
I was like, "Oh, this is what I'm doing here."
27:24
Like, and I kinda had an understanding, but feeling his
27:28
power, I was like, "Oh, yeah."
27:30
So, so with that, anything that I do with the horses, you
27:33
wanna, like, you sit withâ¦
27:35
That's just like I was, I was talking earlier, and I was like, I was gonna do
27:38
a thing, and I was gonna kinda rush into it 'cause I had an initial idea, and
27:40
I'm like, "Let me get started on this, get it done, present it to this person."
27:44
And I said, "Nope, nope, nope.
27:45
I need to take a minute and really figure it out," really, like, letâ¦
27:52
And then when you quiet yourself, quiet your mind, I guess you could say, like,
27:55
meditation, kinda, to a level of that, the thoughts and the ideas come even stronger.
28:02
And that's what f- like, places like Florida, Aspen, I really
28:06
like Brazil and things like that.
28:08
Like, some of these places, I, I think the spiritual energy is even stronger.
28:12
In cities and stuff like that, like New York and Philadelphia,
28:15
it's, like, a lotta distraction.
28:17
Like, and it's things that don'tâ¦
28:18
But when you here with these palm trees and stuff like that and these envi-
28:21
and the beach and all that kinda stuff, it helps you to, like, hear loud.
28:28
You can hear it clearer when you quiet things down, and then that's when the
28:33
inspiration come and the visions come, and then you put it into the work.
28:36
And that, that connects to the-
28:38
Rupert Isaacson: What, what do you feel the horses are communicating
28:40
to you there in Wellington?
28:42
I mean, you, you, you, you drew a parallel between incarceration
28:47
and horses, you know, in stalls.
28:49
You drew you talked about horses running free, but of course, horses
28:53
running free is, is not what one's going to see really in Wellington.
28:57
That said it's ambiguous because there's lots of horses that really enjoy their
29:00
job there, and there's horses that don't.
29:03
There's horses that are very well-treated.
29:04
There's horses that aren't.
29:05
You know, it's, it's, one sees all of this.
29:07
What do youâ¦
29:09
What, what's the predominant thing that comes through to you from
29:13
the horse world as you see it?
29:16
Russell Craig: Well, I can't, like, get into, like, like, like I'm
29:19
some expert or things like that.
29:20
I'm pretty new here, and I'm pretty new to horses.
29:22
But I can kinda a- answer that because when you s- when you asked me that
29:27
question, I, I go into when I hadâ¦
29:30
was invited to someone's stable.
29:32
I went to quite a few of them, but it was a particular one that I
29:35
remember because you said, "What doâ¦
29:38
Where are the horses commu- communicating to you?"
29:41
So when I was walking in this, this, this stable, I was noticing without words,
29:47
that's what I'm saying, it's really deep.
29:48
Like, I don't knowâ¦
29:50
A- and I know I'm not the only one.
29:51
There are other people that's in tune like that and can getâ¦
29:54
Especially them people that's really, that know horses and been around
29:56
them for years and things like that.
29:58
And but, but some of them got horses and been around them for years
30:01
and, and, and are not connected.
30:02
I walk through, and I could feel the horses, like, acknowledging me.
30:08
As I said, I don't wanna get weird, but, like, but try to follow me for the
30:11
people that's like, "This guy's crazy."
30:15
The horses was like, was like, "Who is this guy?"
30:19
Like, and it was, like, personality in each horse.
30:22
Like, so then this one horse at the end, like, he, like,
30:26
looked and was, like, not happy.
30:28
Like, didn't even wannaâ¦
30:29
Like, he wasn'tâ¦
30:30
Like, the other pe- the other horses, the other people.
30:32
I was gonna say people.
30:33
Other people.
30:33
The other horses-
30:35
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
30:36
Russell Craig: The, the other, the other horses was, like, curious.
30:39
They was giving, like, a kinda curious, And I didn't wanna, like, just touch any.
30:43
I kinda, like, slowly go to them and see if they, you know, is okay with you,
30:48
like, petting them and things like that.
30:49
But this one horse was, like, aggravated to the point where it,
30:51
like, And not, like, bucking or, or acting crazy, but the energy was,
30:55
like, not interested that I was there.
30:57
And it seems likeâ¦
30:59
And it wasn't just about me showing up.
31:01
It was a, like, that's where the horse was at on some stuff.
31:03
Like, probably didn't like the environment being capture- being, like,
31:07
in captivity, being, like, trapped, being in that little space or whatever.
31:12
Like, some people might think that the horse is okay with that, but I
31:15
feel like that one horse wasn't okay.
31:18
So it'd be stuff like that.
31:20
And then I can go deeper into a, a different situation where I was around
31:23
somebody that had a whole lot of cows, and it was real, real deep thing happened
31:28
there, but I won't, I won't get into that.
31:29
We could, we could stay on the horses for now.
31:33
Rupert Isaacson: I think we'd like to know about the cow
31:35
situation, and I'll tell you why.
31:37
My biggest mentor in my work was, is Dr.
31:41
Temple Grandin, who is autistic and had a lot of her breakthroughs
31:46
of communication with cows.
31:48
And I think a lot of people who are listening to this show know that really
31:53
these big sentient beings that we work with, whether it's horses, cattle,
31:57
dogs, wildlife, you know, it, it's all the field of consciousness, right?
32:01
So please do tell us about the, the experience with the cattle
32:04
'cause I think there's, there's stuff we can learn from it all.
32:07
Russell Craig: I won't go too deep because I can't.
32:11
Okay.
32:11
But I'll try to just direct-
32:15
Rupert Isaacson: Summarize.
32:16
Yeah
32:16
â¦ Russell Craig: yeah, folks in a direction, and they have to do their own research.
32:21
And, and, and I don't wanna go too deep what would happen 'cause
32:23
they're not gonna believe me.
32:25
So, I was just one of the people who I, I, I should have mentioned Agnes earlier.
32:30
Agnes Gund art patron used to be head of the MoMA, sold Roy Lichtenstein for $165
32:36
million, and really did a lot of work that helped formerly incarcerated folks.
32:40
And and and this, she, she helped a lot of people and really big in the art world.
32:45
So I was on her property, one of her properties, Upstate New
32:48
York, and she has a whole lot of, she had a whole lot of cows
32:53
So, as I, like, approached the cows 'cause the, the, the same way how
32:57
you, oh, you see horses, hey, like go, we, we, we be with the horses
33:01
down here and we will go down to where they be, where they jump and stuff.
33:05
We be, like, down where, where they at, like, 'cause
33:07
we know the riders and things.
33:09
So it was kinda like that kind of a situation where you, like,
33:11
really cl- we would go close.
33:13
So I'm, like, approaching them and just thinking, oh, cows, yeah, this is cool.
33:17
Hey, happy on someâ¦
33:19
That's where my mind was at.
33:20
Butâ¦
33:22
And I'm trying to be careful with my words.
33:25
When I explain how I went through the horse s- stable and and I could tell
33:29
that the horses was, like, curious to who I was, the majority of them, and
33:33
then was that one that was unhappy.
33:35
The cows was a little different and the energy with them
33:43
Not liking their situation was very strong, and also they were
33:49
knowledgeable of, like, that they would be, that they're, like,
33:52
they're gonna be slaughtered
33:55
And that's all.
33:56
I, I can go a little deeper than that, but I don't want to get too-
33:58
Mm-hmm â¦ but that's what I'll say.
34:01
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
34:02
Russell Craig: They have knowledge that, that, and it's very similar
34:07
to, like, when we were in prison and those in prison on death row
34:15
And I kind of just leave it there.
34:16
And I'm not talking about what, what I think.
34:18
I'm not talking about what I think.
34:19
It was a weird thing that happened that I'm not talking, that I'm not gonna speak,
34:24
'cause you gotta be careful- Mm-hmm,
34:24
Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm â¦ what
34:25
Russell Craig: you say.
34:26
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, well, I, I think, I think most of us that work
34:28
with animals really closely have had these types of experiences.
34:32
So I think anyone who's listening would empathize with this that
34:36
it goes beyond the rational.
34:39
There is a communicative field, you know, in which all living beings
34:43
are communicated, and one can tune that out or one can go towards it.
34:49
But one of the lovely things about working with animals, as we know, is it
34:52
tends to bring us into contact with it.
34:55
And so yeah, I, I, I think what you described there is something which will
35:00
be not unfamiliar for a lot of people.
35:03
You'd also talked to me before in a previous conversation about how sometimes
35:09
when you were being moved around in prison with shackles, that sort of thing, that
35:14
you felt that there were some sort of similarities with how people might move
35:18
horses around and that sort of thing.
35:20
And of course, I as a horse person, if I'm, got a ho- a halter on a horse
35:24
and I'm leading a horse somewhere, there's nothing in my mind about this
35:29
horse being in any way incarcerated.
35:32
I mean, I might be leading him out to let him loose in the pasture, for example.
35:36
And at the same time, what is, or I have to, what I have to acknowledge
35:40
as a horseman is that- The horse is only partly master of its own destiny.
35:46
I am the arbiter as the, as the owner of the horse.
35:50
And, and no matter how much I respect that horse, it- it's under my care.
35:56
And so I have to be very careful, you know, to listen to what the
36:01
desires of that horse are, toâ¦
36:03
If the horse is saying no today to listen to that.
36:06
And for example, I wasn't brought up with that at all.
36:08
I was brought up with, if the horse seems to having a negative reaction
36:13
to something you want him to do, you must make the horse do it.
36:16
And then I realized later on in life, no, that's absolutely completely backwards.
36:21
If the horse is saying clearly no about something, you must listen and ask
36:27
yourself, "Why is this horse saying this?
36:28
And what do I need to change?
36:30
What's the horse telling me here?"
36:32
This could even be something that might save my life or the life
36:34
of the kid that I'm working with.
36:36
And if the horse feels that sense of agency that they could say no,
36:41
interestingly, once I started to respect that more, I found that
36:45
horses showed up saying yes much more because they could say no.
36:50
But that was not something that I was taught growing up.
36:52
So I'm, I'm, I'm sort of intrigued by your sense of this.
36:56
You're there in the sport world in Wellington.
36:57
The horses are there to perform.
36:59
They're, they're bought expensively.
37:01
If they don't perform well in the competition, they go.
37:05
They, they're moved on to something else.
37:08
D- what's your feeling when you're there, having been moved around yourself
37:13
in shackles, that sort of thing?
37:16
How, what do you feel are the, are the similarities?
37:19
What do you feel is not similar?
37:20
What's your experience?
37:23
Russell Craig: No, I would say, I would say you're pretty much hitting it.
37:26
Like, it's, it's these situations where it's very similar to, I had a painting
37:31
when you showed up that I, that I made, And it it was supposed to have
37:35
been representational of, like, it was of a horse and a, and a, and a rider,
37:38
and then the rider's, like, halfway.
37:40
You can't see the h- you can't see the rider, only, like, parts of the rider.
37:44
And the horse is, and the, the head of the horse is, like, in f- in the focus.
37:47
And it, the horse was supposed to have been representational of me and my,
37:50
like, experience in being in captivity.
37:53
So I actually did a piece.
37:54
Now, the problem with that piece wasâ¦
37:56
And everybody was like, "Oh, that's a great painting," blah, blah, blah, right?
37:58
But then it was, like, kinda reading as, like, just an equestrian piece.
38:02
So I felt like, you know, I didn't execute it properly to, to convey what
38:07
I really wanted to, like, speak on about, like, how there's a connection
38:11
between, like, my experience in being in captivity and and the horse.
38:15
But then, and, and I also wanted to, like, highlight freedom as well because, like,
38:20
the horse runs and the rider runs fast.
38:22
And with that is, like, freedom, your hair through the, the, the wind
38:26
through your hair and things like that of the horse and stuff like that.
38:29
And the same way when you, like, if you in a convertible and you riding fast,
38:33
it's like this good feeling you feel of, like, coasting through the wind.
38:39
But as far as that piece, I think it just was, like, people just
38:42
seeing a, oh, it's just a horse.
38:44
So it, it, it didn't have the I think a strong enough, execution
38:47
in which that I kind of got across what I was, like, thinking.
38:50
But that, that thinking came from how I see it.
38:54
And then when you asked me, like, what I, what I think about here in
38:56
Wellington, like, I haven't been here, like, long enough, butâ¦
38:59
'Cause everything that I see here is pretty much, like, is a good time.
39:04
Like, and it looks good, and it seems like, it feels like
39:07
the horses is, is, like, pretty much well taken care of overall.
39:12
And then once somebody was, somebody wasâ¦
39:14
I was in a conversation w- with one of the people that have horses and things,
39:18
and they was telling me, like, how, how some horses be in terrible situations.
39:22
And I, and I was like, "Oh, I'm, I'm gonna make work about that.
39:25
Like, I'm, I'm glad you told me that."
39:27
And it's like, she was like, "Wait a minute, wait a minute.
39:28
But you don't, you don't need to be no activist for the horses because, like, a
39:32
lot of these horses live better than you."
39:34
And I'm like, "Well, you just got finished telling me how bad things are."
39:38
And then when I say I'ma, I should do something about this or, you know,
39:42
make some work touching on these, these, these issues that you bringing
39:45
to my attention, but you gonna tell me not to, it was kind of weird.
39:49
You know what I mean?
39:50
So I guess it's like that.
39:51
It's just, like, a mixture.
39:53
But, but here I have only really experienced and seen, like, a lot
39:57
of positivity and, like, things-
39:58
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
39:59
And I, I would say that that is the case.
40:01
I mean, the, the sport world of horses is taking a lot of heat right
40:04
now because of some bad actors.
40:07
But the vast majority of people who are involved in the scene treat
40:11
their horses very well and are very concerned for their horses.
40:14
And at the same time, I think there n- there's need for an evolution.
40:19
There's n- a need for our relationship with all animals to begin to shift.
40:28
But that's not gonna happen overnight.
40:30
And so it's, it â¦ You're in a, you're in a very interesting place there.
40:34
You know, one, one of our jobs in the equine-assisted world, or the,
40:39
the equine therapy world, is giving second careers to horses when they
40:44
have finished their sport life.
40:45
You know, if you think about, if you take it like to a human and you're,
40:48
let's say you're an NFL player, you know.
40:51
And what are you gonna do?
40:52
You only have a certain number of years you're gonna do that for.
40:54
What are you gonna do for the rest of your life after that?
40:56
And if you've taken a certain number of injuries in the course of your
41:00
sport career, mental, physical you know, emotional, how are those
41:04
gonna be rehabbed and turned into strengths in that second career?
41:08
Or will you not have a second career?
41:09
You're just gonna, you know, sm- snort up half of Peru because you can't get
41:13
the, you can't get the high that you got on the rug- on the r- football
41:17
field anymore or â¦ You know, all of these things can come into play.
41:21
And horses, of course, are bred by the million for the sport world,
41:25
and then are sort of brought through at the end of it, sometimes in
41:29
rather early retirement because it's quite demanding on their bodies.
41:33
And other horses go on to live, to do a ripe old age within the sport world
41:37
because they're really well looked after.
41:38
One sees everything good and bad in there.
41:42
But it's intriguing to me, you know, because obviously I'm, I'm often dealing
41:46
with the horses that are coming out, are coming out and needing rehab,
41:50
and then looking for that second career for them, which is often quite
41:54
a meaningful one, helping people.
41:56
Now tell me if you had been taken out to an equine-assisted place when you were
42:05
a young foster kid what would you think would have been the most useful type of
42:13
experience you could have had to, that could have begun to affect your outcomes?
42:21
I'm not saying that anyone who's running an equine-assisted service can necessarily
42:26
keep a kid from the streets out of jail, but nonetheless, what experiences do
42:30
you think would be the optimal ones if you were guiding an equine-facilitated
42:35
place now looking back at yourself as a child, what would you want to see?
42:41
Russell Craig: What I would want to see?
42:42
I mean, when you asked me that question and like if I was like back then where
42:49
I w- you know, me coming up and if I was participating in a, in a program like
42:55
that to me it would be just like amazing.
42:57
'Cause first of all, you have people that care about, about you to be,
43:02
you know, there with you and, and also caring for like the horses.
43:06
Just that caring environment and, and being around those spirit animals
43:10
like would just have been so crazy.
43:13
Would've been like, just I don'tâ¦
43:14
I likeâ¦
43:15
And then you young, so you know how with age we really start to realize
43:20
the details of how bad things can be.
43:22
Like, we know bad, you know, good and bad as a, as a, as kids, but like not
43:27
in, not as much as when we get older.
43:30
So it would, it would just, it would've just been like a really joyous
43:33
experience for myself, and who knows what kind of direction I would've went.
43:38
Because it's certain things that was really important for like my life to
43:41
make me be like where I'm at today.
43:44
So that could, it, that could have possibly had me in a
43:46
whole different kind of a way.
43:48
You know what I mean?
43:49
To, to, to, to be connected to to something like that.
43:52
'Cause see, in my upbringing, I was like n- like there was noâ¦
43:57
It wasâ¦
43:57
I don't wanna say no, there was very few opportunities to likeâ¦
44:03
We went to like the zoo sometime and shit like that, but like- Not
44:09
like something that's hands-on and, like, you really working and then
44:11
you really getting to understand.
44:12
That's what, like, that, for an example, I wa- I can't wait to come see what youâ¦
44:16
'Cause you was like, you explained, like, how you work with horses that are now,
44:19
like, like, retired from the sport and things like that, and I would love to to,
44:23
like, feel and s- like, experience but then also feel those horses of, likeâ¦
44:28
'Cause I know it's a different energy of, like, oh, I'm like,
44:31
I do, I, like, I run freer.
44:32
You know what I mean?
44:32
Mm-hmm.
44:33
You know, it's not, like, same kind of aâ¦
44:35
I can't wait to see, 'cause I can already, the way you explaining
44:38
it is a different thing.
44:40
So I don't even know if I'm properly answering the question
44:43
about, like, how- Well,
44:44
Rupert Isaacson: I think you, you gave me a clue there.
44:46
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44:48
a career in the equine assisted field, you might want to consider
44:52
taking one of our three neuroscience backed equine assisted programs.
44:57
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45:03
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45:09
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45:12
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45:15
We work in the saddle with younger children.
45:19
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45:24
It works incredibly well.
45:26
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45:28
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45:30
If you're working without horses, you might want to look at movement
45:34
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45:37
applied in schools, in homes.
45:39
If you're working with families, you can give them really tangible exercises to do
45:44
at home that will create neuroplasticity.
45:47
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45:49
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45:53
If you know anything about our programs, you know that we need a
45:55
really high standard of horsemanship in order to create the oxytocin
45:59
in the body of the person that we're working with, child or adult.
46:04
So, this means we need to train a horse in collection, but this
46:07
also has a really beneficial effect on the horse's well being.
46:12
And it also ends your time conflict, where you're wondering, oh my gosh, how
46:16
am I going to condition my horses and maintain them and give them what they
46:20
need, as well as Serving my clients.
46:23
Takine equine integration aimed at a more adult client base
46:28
absolutely gives you this.
46:29
You said hands-on, and you said care.
46:32
Do you think that if y- you were running a foster care, a, a, a program for
46:38
foster care kids with horses, would you put an emphasis on hands-on care, the
46:45
kids doing hands-on care for the horse?
46:48
Russell Craig: Oh, for s- for sure.
46:49
For sure.
46:50
And then, like, myself, like, you know, it'll be nice if we can put something
46:54
together because, like, it'd be hands-on.
46:56
I would be hands-on in, in a, in a sense of, like, with my
47:00
experiences and things like that.
47:02
It'd be different.
47:02
From somebody with no experience, they can even be a caring person, it's
47:06
only a certain level of connection they can make with, like, the kids
47:10
and the horses and things like that.
47:11
Like, m- with me being here, I'm getting more experience with, like, the horses.
47:15
I already know what it's like to be, like, a foster kid, and I neverâ¦
47:18
Like, some foster kids still be having they family and get back with they
47:21
family later and all that stuff.
47:23
I went through the whole life of, like, a foster care situation that
47:26
wasn't a family kind of a, a thing and then and then, like, went off
47:30
to prison and things like that.
47:31
So I have all that in mind when I'm like, you know, if I was in a situation
47:36
where we was, like caring for some, for some kids, and it'd, it'd just beâ¦
47:39
I, I could see it as the, as the ingredients for something that could
47:43
be, like, really, really helpful.
47:46
You know what I mean?
47:46
And really, like, amazing.
47:48
So I would definitely, hands-on is the, is, is, like, the only way.
47:52
Like, and everybody learns 'cause you gonna get more wise with working with the
47:57
horses and then, and, and especially in that kind of capacity and w- when we, we
48:01
using them as, like, therapeutic kind of a, a a- resource for, like, traumatized
48:10
or just troubled kids that need direction.
48:12
Mm.
48:13
Because it's like, there's gonna be all this love there.
48:16
It's gotta be love.
48:17
Like, how, how, how else can you deal with these animals and
48:21
these, and these young people?
48:22
So it's gonna be like a labor of love and, and, and it, you know.
48:26
And then it also, like, rewards yourself.
48:29
So yeah, hands-on is, isâ¦
48:31
There's no other way.
48:32
You would have to have.
48:33
And then if you can't be there all the time, that's why it's
48:36
good to have a good team, so, you know, you don't get burnt out.
48:40
You can spread yourself around and just keep it going, you know?
48:44
And then you inspire young people.
48:45
They grow up, and then the next thing you know they wanna carry the torch.
48:48
But it be starting somewhere.
48:50
It start with us.
48:51
And then we, you know, my experiences, the, the good with the bad and the
48:53
ugly, you know, it all now has a purpose where you could be, like, an example for
49:00
what not to do or what you couldn't do.
49:03
And this is a thing to take, like, take your mind off of, you know, some of
49:08
these kids that's going through, like, foster care system or even coming from
49:11
prison, it be, like, really dark life.
49:13
Like, really abusive parents.
49:15
I mean, you name it.
49:16
You know, like, it could be all kinds of stuff.
49:19
A- a- abuse themselves, like sexual abuse.
49:21
You never know what they done went through, you know?
49:23
So it's like- To have an environment where they could release, where they
49:28
could just be, like, not thinking about it and the horses c- is a good thing.
49:31
'Cause you could, like, try to talk to a kid.
49:33
You're like the nice person, and you talking to somebody
49:35
traumatized, it might not be enough.
49:38
The, the, the horse is, like, a way that, like, they could really disconnect.
49:42
That's, like, how I connected to art.
49:44
It was a real escape.
49:45
You know what I'm saying?
49:46
So, and it's with me my whole life.
49:48
Some guy I, I bumped into I ain't seen in a long time when I was in New York
49:52
getting my things together to ship them out here to Florida, and I bumpedâ¦
49:56
I haven't seen him in years.
49:57
Happened to bump into him, and he was like, "You still doing the art?"
50:00
I was like, "I'm gonna be doing art forever, until I die.
50:03
Like, forever, until I'm old man, like, I'm not gonna never stop art."
50:06
I was kind of surprised he asked me that, you know?
50:09
So, you know, that's the opportunity we have to, like, we could, like, plant
50:13
seeds and, and, and allow these kids to, like, see beyond the situation
50:17
that they in now, and the horses is, like, an amazing way to do that.
50:23
And also, like, there's a lot of environments where that opportunity
50:26
is just not even possible.
50:29
So for us to have it to be a possibility is, likeâ¦
50:32
And y'all are already doing that work, so kudos to y'all.
50:35
Hats off to y'all.
50:37
It's just myself-
50:37
Rupert Isaacson: The difficulty, I think, often for, for people that
50:40
are running equestrian things is, of course, the equestrian environments
50:44
are not usually in the inner cities where many of these kids are.
50:49
Although, of course, they also come out of the suburbs as well.
50:52
That said, we do have some projects that are in the middle of, of the cities.
50:56
But so often it's, it's, it's a, it's a question of ac-
51:00
accessibility and transport.
51:02
You know, if
51:07
somebody is going to be in the situation that you were in.
51:11
Presumably some, but there has to be some kind of outreach that would allow
51:16
the foster family that happens to have you at that time to know that this
51:23
project is there and can be accessed.
51:25
How would one best organize that?
51:29
You know it from the inside.
51:30
The parent, the foster parents you had and the foster families that,
51:34
that were looking after you, do you think that if there had been outreach
51:39
to them for say, an equestrian service, that they would have done it?
51:45
Or do you think they would have thought, well, that's too much effort.
51:48
I don't know if I want to drive all the way out there to such and such county.
51:52
You know, no, I'm not gonna do that.
51:54
It's, you know.
51:54
H- how, how do we actually get these kids to the place?
51:58
Russell Craig: Well, unfortunately, in my experience, like, I don't think the, the,
52:03
the, and not all of them, 'cause I was in a number of them, and, and, and they all
52:07
kind of had a level of suffered as one.
52:09
It was kind of a little bit more caring, but not, none, I, I wasn't,
52:13
I was unfortunate to not ha- to not have, like, that family kind of
52:18
care, 'cause like you, now they would have to care to go anywhere- Mm-hmm
52:21
to want to participate in it.
52:23
Some people are not, they're not, They, they not, they not,
52:26
they not, like, open to it.
52:28
But, like, for those who are, and I'm not speaking for everybody, I think, I think
52:32
the ones that, that you know, providingâ¦
52:35
You know how they say that saying, if you build it, they will come?
52:38
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
52:38
Russell Craig: There are, there are, like, situations, foster situations
52:42
in which they would be like, "Oh, that's awesome," and be a part of it.
52:45
So it'll be all about building it.
52:47
It'll be all about putting together proof of concept, like pitching it to,
52:52
like, funders and th- and people who can help it, like, all run well, give
52:57
assistance to people that need to get there, and just get it started, and then
53:01
show, then, you know, show and prove.
53:03
Like, let people see how beneficial it can be.
53:06
And then, then after that, s- and especially w- if you have some,
53:09
like, proof of it and examples or have like a pilot pro- a pilot
53:13
program and things like that.
53:15
Mm-hmm.
53:16
Then it just grows, like, after that.
53:17
Then you could-
53:17
Rupert Isaacson: That for sure.
53:18
But how do I, howâ¦
53:20
Let's say I'm gonna do this.
53:21
How do I reach that young Russell who's, happens to be in a foster situation
53:27
where the people just don't really care, and they don't really wanna put in that
53:31
effort to get you out to that barn?
53:33
How do I get you to that barn?
53:35
Russell Craig: Well, also, those foster home, the foster cares
53:39
they have like a, like a c- like a, like for example, Philadelphia
53:44
was Department of Human Services.
53:46
So it was, like, people over the foster parents.
53:49
So if, like, so I guess you would go, you have, you would have to start there.
53:53
'Cause like I told you, it'd be some foster parents that probably wouldn't
53:55
be interested in all that stuff.
53:56
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
53:57
But
53:57
Russell Craig: if you got to DHS, and in different cities it's called different
54:00
things, and then they suggest to them, like, "Listen, there's this program that
54:03
we're involved in where the kids can go there and and interact with the horses.
54:08
It's therapeutic.
54:08
It's this crazy, great program," you know, that would be, And then,
54:12
then they're, like, over them.
54:14
That's where they get they check.
54:15
They, they, the foster, foster parents be getting paid for having the foster kids.
54:19
Like, that, like, direction will help them to get me there.
54:24
'Cause I couldn't go there without the permission of the parents.
54:27
Absolutely.
54:28
Rupert Isaacson: You
54:28
Russell Craig: know?
54:28
So it would need to be that higher up so the, the DHS would, would,
54:32
would, well, inform the foster parents that this is something that they
54:35
should, like, take advantage of.
54:37
Especially, like, if it's, if, if, if it's set up with DHS as, like, an
54:41
option and and then we would likeâ¦
54:43
You know, you would, you would meet with them and you'd be like, "Yo, we
54:45
would really like for you to, like, present this to all the families
54:49
and, and that's how it would go.
54:50
Rupert Isaacson: We need to present it as a sort of, "Well, we'll take
54:52
these unruly kids off your hands for an afternoon so, you know, there's something
54:56
in it for you, the foster household."
54:59
Yeah.
54:59
You know?
54:59
And
54:59
Russell Craig: that could be a little bit- Something
55:00
Rupert Isaacson: like that
55:01
â¦ Russell Craig: that could be a part of the pitch, but, like, it don't
55:04
gotta be heavy-handed on that.
55:05
That could just be- Right â¦ something you could to try to
55:07
persuade the parent or whatever.
55:08
Or, or not even say it in that way you said it, like, in a real blunt
55:11
way, but, like, just, just like that.
55:13
Like you said, like a, like, "We, we be watching your
55:16
kids," or something like that.
55:17
Or like, and you get a break, and it's a great thing.
55:19
And then especially when they can come see it and see it's a great thing.
55:21
Like, oh, this is awesome.
55:23
You know?
55:23
So it's all about that.
55:24
I think it's about just presenting theâ¦
55:26
properly presenting it to them as an option is how is how youâ¦
55:30
and especially, like, if you had, like, a video of something that they
55:32
could see an, an example, and they'd be like, "Oh, this is awesome."
55:36
And then, then inner city, like, if when you showing them, like, say
55:39
example Wellington or where you be, like, it's gonna be intriguing 'cause
55:44
we be just in the city all the time.
55:45
So they'll be likeâ¦
55:47
Like, it's, it'll be, it'll, it'll be very rare that you'll have a kid that's not
55:52
interested at all, you know what I mean?
55:54
So, or, or even the- No â¦ or even inner city parents that all they do is work,
55:58
and they don't be having this, like, luxur- I don't, l- I don't wanna say just
56:01
luxury or, like, the leisure, like- But
56:03
Rupert Isaacson: beautiful natural environment.
56:04
Yeah.
56:05
Yeah.
56:05
Russell Craig: Yeah.
56:05
Yeah.
56:06
This opportunity to just, like, you know, disconnect.
56:09
So I even think it'll be beneficial to some of the parents.
56:12
And when they-
56:12
Rupert Isaacson: I'm sure â¦ it,
56:13
Russell Craig: it could help-
56:14
Rupert Isaacson: What about accessibility?
56:15
What, what would, what would, what should one do about transport?
56:18
These kids can't get out there by themselves.
56:19
They're, they're dependent upon the families that they're with to bring them.
56:24
Would you go to the DHS and try to organize and get funded
56:28
a transportation option?
56:30
Or what w- what do you think-
56:33
Russell Craig: I mean, that would be nice because if you ha- if
56:35
you, if you're asking for all the parents to have to drive them to
56:40
locations, especially if they're gonna be far, that'd be problematic.
56:43
That could- Mm â¦ that could be definitely problematic.
56:45
You'll, you'll really slim it down to only a few that would be
56:47
willing to do it and able to do it.
56:50
So if it was established that there's a transportation option, that would
56:53
be, like, I think that would be really, like, almost necessary.
56:57
Like, so with funding, that all goes into, like, you're gonna
57:01
definitely need funding period.
57:03
Like, you're gonna need funding, period, like, for all kinds of stuff.
57:07
So all of those things are taken care of.
57:09
And then, and then that's another thing of how it would be successful
57:12
because when you're, when you're coming to these people, the DHS and and the
57:17
actual parents and things like that, and everything's in order, like this
57:21
is fully funded and all that, it's no real headache, like, on top o- on top
57:25
because it was like it's starting with this good idea and how great it is
57:29
and how, like, beneficial it could be.
57:31
But also, like, no headache of, like, like, everything's took care of for
57:36
everybody is, is how it would be.
57:38
I mean, so you would have to get funding.
57:41
Rupert Isaacson: One of the things which we did in the early
57:43
years with our organization is we did this without insurance.
57:47
And n- now I look at it and think we must have been crazy, but we were crazy.
57:51
We would take horses into city parks in Austin, Texas.
57:53
We would just show up with a horse trailer, and we'd unbox four horses.
57:57
And we'd just start working with kids.
58:00
Or maybe we'd contact one family, and that family would show
58:03
up with three other families.
58:05
You know, and we did this all over the city, and we did this on the
58:08
university campus, and we did this onâ¦
58:10
And we actually found that we had no problem getting permissions for it.
58:14
In retrospect, we probably should have had better insurance, but we were
58:17
lucky that we never had an incident.
58:19
But I often wonder, I'm often intrigued by why that often doesn't happen.
58:23
D- i- is, is, do you think that would also have merit if, if the people who are
58:28
running these programs that are outside the city bring the horses into the city
58:32
where the kids are, where the access is easy, big city parks, that sort of thing,
58:36
sta- you know, historic sites, university campuses, college campuses, whatever,
58:42
schools, set the horses up there and run the pr- run the sessions from there.
58:46
Do you think that would work?
58:49
Russell Craig: I mean, you, you could answer that better than me
58:51
because you, 'cause that's awesome that you was doing that, that y'all
58:54
was just showing up like that.
58:56
'Cause it's like certain places you need permits or, like,
58:59
something, like, or, or a lot.
59:01
Or you could go into environments that's, like, probably not the safest.
59:05
And like how you were saying- Mm-hmm â¦ it was good that
59:06
y'all didn't have insurance and and, and things didn't go right.
59:09
I mean, I mean, things didn't go wrong.
59:11
You didn't have any incidents.
59:13
So that was very, very blessed situation 'cause I would think that
59:16
you would wanna, you would wanna have-
59:22
Excuse me, I be like up painting all night and all this stuff.
59:25
You know what I mean?
59:26
But no, like, no, I think it would be better.
59:31
That's awesome how you started and then that you have that kind of experience.
59:34
So just imagine yourself- Mm-hmm â¦ with more support.
59:38
'Cause you already have that drive, that goal, and that passion
59:41
to be like, "Man, we just gonna do it," and then did it before.
59:44
It's how we got it started.
59:45
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
59:45
Russell Craig: But I think at this point you should definitely need,
59:48
you, you, you should definitely have more support, like a support.
59:52
And do the same thing you do, but just with support and having certain things
59:56
taken care of to where as though there, you know, there's no even, no, no room for
1:00:01
any, like, things to go crazy or whatever.
1:00:04
Like, and it could just be like a, a, a, a pretty, And I don't wanna
1:00:07
say perfect, but like pretty solid.
1:00:10
Everything's checked, you know?
1:00:12
And just, just to make it like a more organized thing.
1:00:14
Mm-hmm.
1:00:14
And I think with the experience and the hurdles you already jumped over you're not
1:00:18
starting from like the beginning point.
1:00:21
So it's all about like taking it to the next level and then being ready
1:00:25
for these kids, like, for these services to be like, you know, just
1:00:29
there for them, easy, you know?
1:00:34
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, the, the, the accessibility seems to
1:00:36
me to be the, the main thing.
1:00:39
One ofâ¦
1:00:40
When we were ta- a few sentences ago, or a few sort of moments ago, we were
1:00:46
talking about, you know, I d- I, I wouldn't be arrogant enough to think
1:00:51
that exposure to one of our programs would necessarily keep a kid out of jail.
1:00:56
But one of the things that one might hope would be that let's say they did
1:01:00
end up in that situation as you did, that maybe there would be memories
1:01:04
that they could have to say, "Well, there are other possibilities in life.
1:01:07
I did have these other experiences that were super positive.
1:01:12
What if I was to go back towards those?
1:01:16
What if I was to put my mind there and walk in that direction?"
1:01:21
You, you would hope that some of those experiences would
1:01:24
resonate through darker times.
1:01:29
Once you yourself hit the criminal justice system, now, I, I know that
1:01:34
you didn't go in for violent crime.
1:01:36
You know, it was a series of drug-related crimes that sort of mounted
1:01:39
up and then r- hit the jail time.
1:01:43
But nonetheless, once you're in there, it's a violent world.
1:01:45
Of course, the streets are a violent world, but prison is
1:01:47
an even more violent world.
1:01:49
You wereâ¦
1:01:50
Just going away from horses and back to you for a moment.
1:01:53
You were in there as an artist.
1:01:55
You, you, you, you weren't interested in the macho culture.
1:01:58
I mean, you're a big dude.
1:01:59
I've met you.
1:01:59
And you come off the streets.
1:02:00
I'm sure you can look after yourself, but that's not really the point I'm making.
1:02:04
It's, it's, it's such a, a violent world in there, and if you are not interested
1:02:12
in participating in macho or gang culture or whatever, and you want to be an artist
1:02:20
in that situation, how do you survive?
1:02:22
I mean, how do you survive the, the, the, the prejudice within the system?
1:02:27
How do you make that work for yourself with your fellow inmates and so on?
1:02:32
Russell Craig: Well, for me, in my situation, 'cause it's, like,
1:02:36
unique with each person because, like, it's, it's all about how you
1:02:40
gonna- React to these environments.
1:02:44
Like, how are you gonna behave there and things like that.
1:02:46
Then also some prisons are, like, more intense than others.
1:02:50
So that's also a factor.
1:02:53
But for the most part of my experiences, and I did a number of years in jail, like,
1:02:57
when you mind your business, like you in your own world, like, they respect it.
1:03:01
Oh, and it's like this respect for artists.
1:03:03
Like, artists are, like, held high there because it's one of
1:03:06
the only things that you provide, like, a service in the inside.
1:03:10
And then it's like, so technically you're not supposed to run a business.
1:03:15
You're not allowed to run a business.
1:03:16
It's one of the things that you can get in trouble and wind up going in the
1:03:18
hole for if they wanna shut you down for whatever business that you got going.
1:03:23
So by me selling portraits, I mean, you're really not supposed to do
1:03:28
it, but it's like, you know, it's guards that be like, when you like
1:03:31
a good artist and they see your art.
1:03:33
And there be times where they beâ¦
1:03:34
And they not supposed to engage in any business with you, but it be like guards
1:03:38
wanting paintings and things like that.
1:03:40
I see.
1:03:40
When you good like that, like they they be like, everybody be wanting a part of it.
1:03:43
So it's like, it kind of puts you in this realm, like nobody
1:03:46
really mess with the artist.
1:03:47
And then they come to you to do paintings and things for them because it's ways
1:03:50
that they can connect with their family, give gifts during birthdays and stuff like
1:03:54
that Because you do some kind of craft.
1:03:58
It's like I do like these weavings that be incorporated into my painting.
1:04:01
They come from my prison experience, where we would take commissary disregarded like
1:04:05
packages and things like that, like empty chip bags, empty noodle bags, and make
1:04:09
these woven together like picture frames, and I incorporate that into like my art.
1:04:14
And then like, like some guy, he might can't paint, but he make the
1:04:17
picture frames real nice and put the pictures up so other inmates will
1:04:21
buy the frames and put their family pictures in it and hang it, you know,
1:04:24
in they cell and things like that.
1:04:26
So, it, it, it really kind of justâ¦
1:04:28
It helped.
1:04:29
It helped me through, through not only just mentally and like on
1:04:32
a, in a personal level, but just like navigating in the prison.
1:04:37
Like, it's, it's like how you function in there.
1:04:39
That's how I was able to do it, and it also had me have the vision.
1:04:43
I started having the ideas and I truly believed in myself that
1:04:46
I could be a artist getting out.
1:04:48
So then that connects, goes back to the horses and the thing you talking
1:04:51
about is like how this program and things you're doing and the work
1:04:56
with the horses can definitely be an impression in the minds of likeâ¦
1:05:00
'Cause it's like so many kids and things don't be having no opportunities.
1:05:04
They don't be, be exposed to things.
1:05:06
So like a proper, properly structured program where you providing the
1:05:11
horses for a therapeutic kind of a component, but then it also should
1:05:15
have with like funding or whatever, the structure and the planning to
1:05:18
have something that's like lasting.
1:05:20
And like leading the kids of like, okay, once you out of this program, once you
1:05:24
get to like a independent living kind of a, a, a stage, you know, we put into your
1:05:30
head positivity and direction and things like that, and then have the resources in
1:05:34
which they kind of could send them off.
1:05:36
Not like a thing that's temporary.
1:05:38
You could have like a thing where it's like, great, they come and
1:05:40
it's a great time and it's like nice and it's safe for a moment, but
1:05:44
then send them back into the wild.
1:05:46
I seen and have worked with programs like that in Philadelphia that was like that.
1:05:50
It's set up and then you only giving the kids six months of a, a lot of them will
1:05:54
be like, "Well, what do we do after this?"
1:05:56
Then a lot of them will wind up either dead or back in jail.
1:05:59
'Cause it was like a real intenseâ¦
1:06:01
It was a program for kids that was really deep in the streets, like doing
1:06:05
violent stuff, ri- robbing people, getting caught with guns, assault.
1:06:09
You know, all the like kinda heavy crimes, and these are young folks.
1:06:13
Juveniles.
1:06:13
Like, like young young.
1:06:15
And it's like, it was like the, the program was like temporary and they
1:06:19
would like teach them like carpentry.
1:06:21
You had me as the art teacher.
1:06:24
And they had these different components to the program, but then it was
1:06:27
so lim- it was so limited in time, it didn't, it didn't, you knowâ¦
1:06:31
And then it didn't have anything that, like, really helped.
1:06:33
I ain't gonna say it didn't have anything.
1:06:35
They, they had, like, a mock job thing that they had at the end where
1:06:39
they would, like, try to set them up employment and things like that.
1:06:42
But I think it coulda been especially for the kinda funding that they was
1:06:46
getting y- every year, like, they coulda came up with something that
1:06:50
was, like, really, like, helped place.
1:06:51
'Cause, 'cause sometimes some kids get placed in a good thing, but
1:06:55
it wasn't the overall program.
1:06:57
Like, it wasn't like that's what happens with this program.
1:07:00
Like, it'd be like these, these success stories, and, like, how I was ableâ¦
1:07:03
'Cause I was in that program, but I quickly evolved to artist
1:07:07
assistant, then lead artist in Philadelphia Mural Arts program.
1:07:12
And then went out
1:07:13
Rupert Isaacson: to New York.
1:07:13
How, how, w- whatâ¦
1:07:14
If you were running that program then, and you had access to the good funding
1:07:18
that you said that they had, what would you have done differently to-
1:07:21
Russell Craig: I wouldâ¦
1:07:22
You, you, you take what you got that works, but then you, you add upon.
1:07:25
There's always room for improvement.
1:07:26
Mm.
1:07:26
That's a saying that I go by.
1:07:28
So it's like, you got what you got going.
1:07:30
Mm.
1:07:30
Then it's like, okay, the next funding is coming in next year,
1:07:33
and you there for some time.
1:07:34
So if I'm the guy that's running it where I got a team, we, we, youâ¦
1:07:38
That's what the meetings be about when you have, like, a, a, a, a staff meetings
1:07:42
and things, and they be like, you know.
1:07:44
And, and it's a good question you asking, because it's like when you
1:07:49
seen the bad things that was happening, and then they didn't have noâ¦
1:07:53
They didn'tâ¦
1:07:53
Like, it, nobody even either cared or it just, it was treated like a normal
1:07:57
thing when these kids is winding up.
1:07:59
One time, it was on a Friday.
1:08:02
By Monday, five of the kids was, like, gone.
1:08:05
Like, I think, like, four in jail, one got murdered.
1:08:08
So y- you got a class of 15, five of them was gone over the weekend.
1:08:13
So it'd be like, it'd be stuff like that to be like, okay, when the weekend, when,
1:08:18
when there's not programming going on.
1:08:20
And we talking about the, an intense kind of appro- Like, you know, I told you these
1:08:24
kids was, like, from the street streets.
1:08:25
Like, deep in the streets.
1:08:28
So you would wanna try that.
1:08:29
Once they're in a program, they need to be sheltered.
1:08:32
Like, sh- like really set up to be like, "Okay, you're here.
1:08:34
You'reâ¦
1:08:35
Like, you, you accepted it, signed here.
1:08:37
You wanna participate in this?
1:08:39
We need your participation.
1:08:40
Well, you're here, and, and we got everything to make sure
1:08:43
you good while you're here."
1:08:44
And then, then, and then in the long run for however the program runs,
1:08:49
that it directs you into not back into the streets where you were.
1:08:52
Mm-hmm.
1:08:53
You need to be going, like, either some kinda college, community college, whatever
1:08:57
kinda opportunities that we can, like, funnel you to, job placement or whatever.
1:09:02
Help you at the moment, and then also help you le- lead you off.
1:09:06
And if you decide to leave that in order, whatever, and go back, that'd be on you.
1:09:10
You know what I mean?
1:09:11
But I done seen situations where it's like they didn't even
1:09:15
give them the opportunity, the chance to, like, really make it.
1:09:18
It be like a temporary thing.
1:09:20
Hey, people take those photos, and we're doing this good thing for
1:09:23
people to get more funding, and it be, like, for the benefit of the folks.
1:09:28
And then I've been in a, in, in situations recently where it's like there's a
1:09:32
lot of that going on, where it's like people having these things, these
1:09:35
programs, but it's like, it's not for the benefit of who they say it's for.
1:09:39
And that's unfortunate.
1:09:42
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
1:09:42
I think that, you know, I, I, I do know that this can happen.
1:09:46
I, I think most people that are running these sorts of programs are running
1:09:49
them with coming from the right place.
1:09:52
The, the question is, you know, how do you create that shelter
1:09:56
that you're talking about?
1:09:58
Because the environment, this is the, always the difficulty, and this k-
1:10:02
I think comes back to this question of accessibility, say, for the kids
1:10:05
from the foster system as well.
1:10:08
The environment that we would bring them into in a, in a horse
1:10:13
barn is not the environment that they're gonna go back to to live in.
1:10:17
They just are not going to.
1:10:19
And if they're coming from the streets do do, do these, do these programs
1:10:24
need to have some sort of campus?
1:10:27
Russell Craig: Yeah.
1:10:27
Is that kinda
1:10:27
Rupert Isaacson: what we're talking about?
1:10:28
Yeah, I
1:10:28
Russell Craig: was kinda thinking, I was thinking that as you was saying that.
1:10:30
Mm-hmm.
1:10:30
I was like, I was thinking that as you was saying that.
1:10:33
You was like, when they come to the barn, I was like, yeah, they need to be,
1:10:37
like, really, like, never going back.
1:10:39
Not no like at the end of the day or, like-
1:10:41
Rupert Isaacson: Mm
1:10:42
â¦ Russell Craig: or the weekend they going back.
1:10:43
Because, like, oh, no, another thing that be very problematic, when the
1:10:47
other kids or whatever be from the hood and they hear about that they
1:10:51
in a program, it make them a target.
1:10:55
They don't even, they be doing super good, just like, "Oh, you better."
1:10:59
They look for anything to, like, be like, "You think you better."
1:11:01
And then don't let them post on the ins- on their Instagram or something.
1:11:04
They on some horses.
1:11:05
Or anything different than the hood shit.
1:11:08
They, they, they become, like, it's like this bad energy
1:11:12
crab in a barrel kind of aâ¦
1:11:13
So they would need to be separated.
1:11:16
And then with, with the campus, you have the therapeutic things going on
1:11:19
with, like, the horses and stuff like that, but just, like, programming
1:11:22
to where as though they're, likeâ¦
1:11:24
And that would really help their minds, like, get, like, 'cause
1:11:27
you're really now separated from the situation, but you're not in a prison.
1:11:31
You n- you, you haven't been sent to some juvenile place.
1:11:34
You've been sent to a place that's helping you you know, get your life together,
1:11:37
get your life on track, and hopefully to go on to do great things in life.
1:11:41
And that'd be a great pro- But- We,
1:11:43
Rupert Isaacson: we could get- So we're brainstorming here.
1:11:44
How do you, how do you then, what, what do, how do some kids
1:11:47
end up in this campus- It need, it need- â¦ and other kids not?
1:11:49
Like-
1:11:50
Russell Craig: It need funding.
1:11:51
Funding.
1:11:52
' Rupert Isaacson: Cause of the- Well, funding for sure.
1:11:53
But even with the funding, let's say, let's say the administration changed and
1:11:57
all sorts of funding came flooding into the philanthropic areas of government.
1:12:03
Then you need buildings â¦ we have, we have had that situation before.
1:12:06
Let's say it's the streets of Philly.
1:12:08
There's still gonna be kids that would access the program and kids
1:12:11
that would not access the program.
1:12:13
How does, how does one deal with that kind of unfairness?
1:12:19
Russell Craig: I don't know.
1:12:20
Like, you can't, you, it, it, you can't, it can't be like
1:12:23
you can't control everything.
1:12:24
Mm-hmm.
1:12:25
So you just gotta build it.
1:12:26
We, you would just have to build it.
1:12:27
I had put the emphasis on the funding because you would, you know, you
1:12:32
can have all kinds of great ideas, but if you don't have, like, the
1:12:36
means of making it put, like put it together and put it together strongly-
1:12:39
Rupert Isaacson: Mm
1:12:40
â¦ Russell Craig: and that's, dude, you gotta put it together.
1:12:42
You gotta build it.
1:12:43
You know what I'm saying?
1:12:44
And then after that, just run it accordingly.
1:12:46
And then also having the proper staff, people that really canâ¦
1:12:50
Not just anybody that just wanna take a job.
1:12:53
You have caring people that's behind it or whatever.
1:12:55
You build it, and that's just how itâ¦
1:12:57
And then you promote it, then you get out there.
1:13:00
You know what I'm saying?
1:13:00
And then, like I said, examples.
1:13:02
Y'all been doing what y'all been doing for quite some time, but then
1:13:05
you could have, like, a pilot program and then have- Mm â¦ like some kinda
1:13:09
of video, like, like Will and them.
1:13:11
I do a piece or I got a thing coming up in Aspen.
1:13:14
They did a video.
1:13:15
I I, I proposed for doing public art in in, in Miami, which is, you know,
1:13:20
an hour and a half from Wellington, and they gave, they did a video.
1:13:23
I talked about things I did in the past, my experience in over the years
1:13:27
with Mural Arts of Philadelphia, and I did a number of murals and got
1:13:31
award for it and stuff like that.
1:13:32
So I explained in the video what it is, and then they can go look
1:13:36
me up and see, Google me and stuff.
1:13:39
So what I'm saying is giving an example of, like, when you would do the same
1:13:42
thing, that's how you would do it.
1:13:45
You just build it, show- You know
1:13:46
Rupert Isaacson: what's coming to my mind?
1:13:47
What's coming to myâ¦
1:13:48
I'm, I'm sort of wrestling with this idea of campuses and what
1:13:51
goes on on these campuses and where are these campuses and so on.
1:13:54
What comes into my mind weirdly, just as we're brainstorming here, is green
1:14:00
jobs rewilding, forest planting, market gardening, land reclamation reclamation
1:14:09
of shitty industrial sites to make them back into, like, parks and public
1:14:14
spaces and these sorts of things.
1:14:16
Which I'm always surprised that we're not seeing government putting money into this
1:14:22
type of green job creation in the US.
1:14:24
Y- you do see it in other countries.
1:14:26
And there have been times in the US when the government did do things like
1:14:30
this, notably back in the '30s when, you know, when you go to state parks,
1:14:34
for example, and national parks, and you often see these very beautiful, rather
1:14:38
whimsical buildings and all the trails and sort of staircases up the mountain.
1:14:42
They were all built by, many of them were built by people who were unemployed
1:14:46
and destitute who then joined a program that the government had there
1:14:50
to the, the, the something corps.
1:14:53
It'll come to my mind.
1:14:54
Someone listening to it will put it in the comments below.
1:14:57
But we haven't seen anything like this for an awful long time.
1:15:00
But it seems to me that the scale of the problem that we're talking
1:15:04
about here is so great that it almost requires something like that.
1:15:07
But a pilot project would be, of course, a good way to start.
1:15:10
But w- what springs to my mind is, yeah, what's going on on this campus, and how
1:15:15
is this campus different, appreciably different to the environment of the hood?
1:15:22
It needs nature, right?
1:15:23
It can't just be a horse farm.
1:15:26
It's got to be, I think, more than that.
1:15:28
There has to be forestry.
1:15:29
There has to be restoration of land.
1:15:32
There has to be this type of thing where there is potentially job, you
1:15:36
know, that is lasting that could, you could then go into the forest service.
1:15:40
You could then go into, you know- Yeah
1:15:42
agriculture.
1:15:43
You could go into other sorts of things that, yeah, that would also-
1:15:46
Exactly â¦ not take you back to the city.
1:15:48
Russell Craig: That's exactly.
1:15:49
'Cause even if theyâ¦
1:15:50
I mean, I like that 'cause it's like e- they would have that opportunity
1:15:53
of the- being trained that they could work in that, that area if they choose.
1:15:57
Mm.
1:15:57
Or if it teach them work ethic that they can put into any
1:16:01
kind of interest that they got.
1:16:02
It would be, like, a good training, like, place for them.
1:16:05
And I really like, like, how that sound.
1:16:08
And then keeping them busy.
1:16:09
Like, when you, when you busy, there's mu- not much room for foolishness.
1:16:14
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
1:16:14
Russell Craig: So that, that'd be, that'd beâ¦
1:16:16
Y- you making me, like, dream 'cause it's like it l- I could see it.
1:16:20
Like, it could be great.
1:16:21
But then also, like, when you talk about, like, a, a place for them
1:16:24
to be, like, a, Like a place and I would like to think about like
1:16:27
where, where would that would happen.
1:16:28
And it'd be like a lot of people would be having that kind of, you know, properties
1:16:32
and, and space and things like that.
1:16:33
Mm-hmm.
1:16:33
And hopefully we could like part- partner with them and use their-
1:16:37
Mm-hmm â¦ instead of trying to like get up so much funding that
1:16:39
we had to buy some kind of place.
1:16:41
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely, yeah.
1:16:41
No, you'd need existing properties to be made available.
1:16:45
Russell Craig: Nice if- â¦ it will be people that we could pitch it to
1:16:48
that might be interested, you know?
1:16:49
And then it could probably grow later, you know what I'm saying?
1:16:52
But it will be nice to-
1:16:53
Rupert Isaacson: Something which I've, I'veâ¦
1:16:54
This, this is a little dream I've had for a long time, is you know,
1:16:57
schools, particularly schools in urban America, look like prisons, right?
1:17:02
When you, when you drive past them, you're like, "That looks like a prison."
1:17:06
It's this thing behind this big chain link fence.
1:17:08
It's these concrete buildings, and you see the kids getting shuffled from here, you
1:17:11
see the kids getting shuffled to there.
1:17:13
And you go inside them and, Jesus, you know?
1:17:16
And one of the things I've often thought is if not only is that an environment
1:17:21
that creates a certain kind of despair in, in the mind and the heart, but
1:17:27
it, they're also concrete islands that create- Environmental as well as
1:17:34
social problems for the neighborhood.
1:17:36
So if the kids are all unhappy, they're coming out of that
1:17:38
school and maybe doing crime.
1:17:41
If the, but the concrete itself is putting out a lot of heat and a lot
1:17:46
of physical discomfort, and one of the things I've often dreamed of is what
1:17:51
if those schools became green islands?
1:17:53
What if they became cooling islands for the
1:17:56
What if they became forests?
1:17:59
And then ins- and then they, they have a cooling effect on the neighborhood
1:18:05
socially as well as physically, rather than a heating effect on the
1:18:10
neighborhood socially and physically.
1:18:14
And as we're talking, you know, that dream has never really gone away for me, and
1:18:19
I think I had it even as a child because I grew up actually not in the country.
1:18:24
I had a horsey aunt, but my parents were very urban and I went to school
1:18:29
in the middle of the financial district of London, which is
1:18:32
about as concrete as you can get.
1:18:33
It's like heavy, harsh concrete.
1:18:35
And they were rebuilding it after the war.
1:18:37
You know, I'm quite old now, so when I was a kid a lot of the financial
1:18:41
districts that there in London wasn't there 'cause it had been
1:18:44
knocked flat by bombs in the war.
1:18:46
So there was a lot of heavy, heavy construction going on, of
1:18:50
these huge skyscrapers going up.
1:18:51
So just noise and concrete and dust and heat, and you're
1:18:55
going to school through this.
1:18:57
And I remember just longing for nature.
1:18:59
Longing for nature.
1:19:01
Longing for something green.
1:19:03
I'm wondering if, yeah, if th- this idea of sort of bringing the horses
1:19:08
in to the schools and the hoods is, may- maybe it has to actually
1:19:12
be the school buildings itself.
1:19:14
Maybe, maybe it has to start there.
1:19:17
I don't know, what do you think?
1:19:20
Russell Craig: I mean, a lot of, a lot of work there 'cause you
1:19:22
talking about with the schools.
1:19:23
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
1:19:24
Mm.
1:19:24
' Russell Craig: Cause we can't just, just show up to these places.
1:19:27
We have to, like, put a, put some work in.
1:19:30
It would have to be some work put in.
1:19:32
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:19:33
No, you need buy-in.
1:19:34
You, you need aâ¦
1:19:35
Again, it comes down to pilot projects.
1:19:36
I think you need a couple of schools
1:19:37
Russell Craig: that- Yeah, yeah.
1:19:38
I was about to goâ¦
1:19:38
You took the words out my mouth.
1:19:39
I was about to say you gotta- Yeah â¦ you have to have an even
1:19:41
a, a, a proof of concept- Mm â¦ and show folk, 'cause that'll help.
1:19:46
And then, a- and, and with time, with the success and with time of
1:19:50
a little track record, then that's how it becomes a little easier when
1:19:53
you when you, when you present.
1:19:55
And then, then you leave it in the hands of, like, how much do they wanna be a
1:19:59
part of it, or they wanna do it, you know?
1:20:01
'Cause, Mm-hmm â¦ once youâ¦
1:20:02
yourself.
1:20:03
Like, no, this is, thisâ¦
1:20:04
We do this.
1:20:05
You know what I'm saying?
1:20:06
Like, and then itâ¦
1:20:06
And then you leave it to their hands, but you make it easier
1:20:10
for people that's, like, either for it or, like, in the middle.
1:20:14
They'll, they'll lean towards it because it's like we already,
1:20:17
like, showed you that this can be done, and then it's a good thing.
1:20:21
You know what I mean?
1:20:22
So-
1:20:22
Rupert Isaacson: One, one of the reasons I like to bat ideas around like this on,
1:20:24
on the show in these conversations is, you know, it's very easy, particularly
1:20:28
with the, the horse world, to get very focused on the horse because they're very
1:20:32
time-consuming to keep, and horse people tend to be a bit autistic that way anyway.
1:20:36
We're very horse-obsessed.
1:20:38
But what I think we often need to think a little bit broader, and
1:20:41
because, you know, not everyone that comes out to an equestrian program,
1:20:44
for example, feels the horse.
1:20:46
But what they can do is they can feel nature.
1:20:47
They can feel that freedom.
1:20:49
They can feel the sense of nurturing a piece of land or growing vegetables or
1:20:54
looking after the chickens and the dogs.
1:20:55
Itâ¦
1:20:56
Y- y- you never know what is the thing that's gonna speak to them.
1:21:00
So if we're not thinking a little bit beyond the horse, or at least what do
1:21:04
we do with these beautiful environments that the horses are in that is greater
1:21:08
than the horse, then I, I f- I feel that we're, we're not utilizing our resources
1:21:14
as, as well as we perhaps could be.
1:21:16
You know, w- let's just go to y- your, back to your
1:21:19
experience in, in prison again.
1:21:21
Y- so you saidâ¦
1:21:22
I was intrigued by you saying that there's a respect for artists there, and
1:21:26
that I, that I wouldn't have expected.
1:21:27
So that was new to me.
1:21:29
D- do you feel that-
1:21:35
If that sort of idea of nature And the mind and working with
1:21:42
nature were brought into prisons.
1:21:45
Do you think that, not just the horse.
1:21:48
Do you th- what sort of effect do you think that would have?
1:21:51
And then the other question for me is you were lucky to some degree in
1:21:55
that you had a passion and a talent.
1:21:57
You knew you wanted to be an artist.
1:22:00
You had that going on.
1:22:01
That was already moving inside you.
1:22:03
But you must have come across a lot of people in prison who did not have,
1:22:09
did not know what their life's passion was, who were kind of lost that way.
1:22:14
if you're a horse nerd, and if you're on this podcast, I'm guessing you are, then
1:22:19
you've probably also always wondered a little bit about the old master system.
1:22:25
of dressage training.
1:22:26
If you go and check out our Helios Harmony program, we outline there step by step
1:22:35
exactly how to train your horse from the ground to become the dressage horse
1:22:41
of your dreams in a way that absolutely serves the physical, mental and emotional
1:22:48
well being of the horse and the rider.
1:22:51
Intrigued?
1:22:51
Like to know more?
1:22:53
Go to our website, Helios Harmony.
1:22:58
Check out the free introduction course.
1:23:00
Take it from there.
1:23:01
What about those people?
1:23:02
How does one help them?
1:23:04
Russell Craig: Now, that's a really good question because, like, when we
1:23:08
was talking about helping the kids, that's a little different 'cause they're
1:23:10
young, you know, and they're get- they're at a place in which they could
1:23:14
be steered towards that negativity- Mm-hmm â¦ or that kind of life where
1:23:18
they're in prison or, or, like, or feeling like there's no turning back.
1:23:22
But you see, once you having adults that's, like, in prison and, and stuck
1:23:26
in that mindset is a different thing.
1:23:28
And it's not easy to try toâ¦
1:23:32
'Cause it's those groups, like, it'sâ¦
1:23:33
This is a really good question.
1:23:35
There's people in the prison, it's like they be, like, in these
1:23:37
groups, and they, like, they're stuck in that, like, gang, prison.
1:23:45
The negative thing is, like, is a part of them to the point where some of
1:23:48
them feel like that's what it is, and it's like, it's like you talk about
1:23:54
anything other than that, it's lame.
1:23:55
And then, then we talk about horses and stuff, that's next level.
1:23:58
That's not even, like, you not even talking about you need to change
1:24:01
your life around and be positive.
1:24:02
They hear that all the time.
1:24:04
You know what I mean?
1:24:04
But, like, it'll be so beyond their comprehension of, like, I mean,
1:24:07
or, or so unrelatable that, that some people, like, are so far gone.
1:24:12
But not all, though, 'cause you have some that if it was some kind of way how toâ¦
1:24:17
And, and when you said and connecting with nature, in prison, the ones that
1:24:20
I was in, it would, it would be no way that that would happen right away.
1:24:23
There's no way they would go to prison and they would have some kind of thing thatâ¦
1:24:26
They have, like, this level system and, like, say you was there and
1:24:29
you had all this good behavior then you would be access- you, you would
1:24:33
be eligible to, like, work on the outside unit and things like that.
1:24:37
So I could see that.
1:24:38
And I believe in states they be having things like that where
1:24:41
they working with even horses.
1:24:43
I heard about programs like that.
1:24:45
But it just in, in Pennsylvania and, and 'cause I was locked up Pennsylvania.
1:24:49
You know, lived in New York but I never was locked up there.
1:24:51
But I hear that the states that they, they have, like, a program where they
1:24:54
work for the horses, and I'm sure it works off of that that, that your
1:24:57
good behavior kind of a level system.
1:25:00
'Cause if you get into fights and get caught, 'cause you can get in a
1:25:02
fight but you gotta not get caught.
1:25:04
You gotta fight, like, in a secret area and things like that.
1:25:07
I had gotten into a few, and that'd be the thing.
1:25:08
That's how you try to do it.
1:25:10
And then sometime you know, things will just break out in the open.
1:25:14
So when they grab you and the guards grab you, put you in a hole, and it's
1:25:17
like, you know, you, you've been caught- officially in like a fight or something
1:25:21
like that, that would make you not eligible for, like, anything p- like
1:25:24
positive programs and stuff like that.
1:25:26
But for, for the ones that the, the possibilities of where it could
1:25:30
happen, yeah, that'd be great.
1:25:31
And especially dudes that been in for all that concrete and things for years, they
1:25:35
would love to, You know, there's a lot of prisons where you don't even see a tree.
1:25:38
You be in, you be in in jail for so many years you don't even see a tree.
1:25:42
I was in this one prison where you couldn't see the sunset.
1:25:45
The wall, the wall was so big out there, the, the wall that keep us in.
1:25:50
And that had me so stressed when I was like, "Yo, you can't even
1:25:52
see the sunset or any trees?"
1:25:54
When I went to the yard and I didn't go out yar- the yard for a year and
1:25:59
this this, this Latin gentleman was telling me that, that, like, he was
1:26:01
like, "Yo, you need to go outside.
1:26:03
You shouldn't, like, justâ¦"
1:26:05
I told him about the wall and the reason why I didn't go and he was
1:26:08
like, "You shouldn't do that to yourself," like, and that's the kind
1:26:10
of thing that might, can damage you 'cause you just, like, always inside.
1:26:14
So yeah, like a connection to nature.
1:26:17
But I would suggest that c- it would be like that anyway, but I think
1:26:20
that's a good thing that, you know, it would be, it would be some kind
1:26:25
of way you had to earn that program.
1:26:27
You know what I'm saying?
1:26:28
Or, or some kind of component in which the inmates are, are, like
1:26:31
being brought back into, like, nature.
1:26:33
And I think that would be really, that's, like, a good idea because it's like- When
1:26:38
you coming from the city, that's all that, you know, that's concrete and jungle.
1:26:42
You know, prisons that's still in the, in the, in the, in the concrete.
1:26:46
And to, like, have somebodyâ¦
1:26:48
So not only putting them in nature, you would need, like, a guide person, a person
1:26:51
to help them get in tune with the nature.
1:26:54
'Cause that, that came to mind earlier as some other things we was talking about.
1:26:57
I was like, you need, like, a spiritual, like, person.
1:27:00
And I'm, and it, it don't, it don't matter who theyâ¦
1:27:03
It could be different kinds of methods of spirituality.
1:27:06
But I think that needs to be, like also, like, optional and help
1:27:10
them to really, like, get into a deeper understanding about things.
1:27:14
And, and, and that's how the change happens.
1:27:17
'Cause some people are just bredded to be a certain way, and that's
1:27:19
how they go that wrong direction.
1:27:21
'Cause of the DNA- Do we need
1:27:21
Rupert Isaacson: that in the foster kid programs too?
1:27:23
Do we need that spiritual component
1:27:26
Russell Craig: there?
1:27:26
Absolutely.
1:27:27
I've been had that thought.
1:27:28
But I told you all I ain't wanna get too weird- Mm-hmm â¦ for folk.
1:27:31
But, like, yeah, I think it's important.
1:27:33
It's, like, really important to get in tune because that connects you to
1:27:36
nature, that connects you to the horses.
1:27:38
You have to have that kind of spiritual understanding.
1:27:41
And f- and for those who don't be having that, that, it, it can be
1:27:44
problematic to be disconnected.
1:27:47
But-
1:27:48
Rupert Isaacson: You know, it's one of the problems that I've, I've encountered
1:27:50
living in the US for many years, is that a lot of the spirituality that's
1:27:55
available in the mainstream, of course, comes through sort of various Protestant
1:28:00
denominations of Christianity that are often very anti-ethical to nature.
1:28:05
There's often this idea of, you know, man's domination over
1:28:09
nature, and somehow being Christian means concreting nature over and
1:28:15
putting up a McDonald's, you know?
1:28:16
Which has always been crazy to me.
1:28:19
And then I recently had some conversations with a couple of- church priests that
1:28:26
I knew saying, "Well, why is this?
1:28:28
I mean, w- why aren't you stewarding creation?
1:28:31
Why are you destroying creation?
1:28:33
Like, I'm sorry, but you are.
1:28:34
Like, why?"
1:28:36
And I got some really interesting answers.
1:28:38
And I found out that there was actually a quite big movement in the church
1:28:43
now, which I was quite heartened by, to bring it back to nature.
1:28:49
They, much more so than I thought, and particularly some groups I've
1:28:52
been involved with in Michigan.
1:28:54
And I'm wondering if it's something like that that one needs to look towards.
1:29:00
Because, you know, if one's looking towards of Eastern traditions like
1:29:03
Buddhism or whatever or â¦ You know, I've been exposed to a lot
1:29:06
of shamanic practice, obviously, out in Africa and places.
1:29:09
But you can't bring that into mainstream America.
1:29:12
There's also Native America, which, where those practices are
1:29:15
alive and well and never died.
1:29:17
But for some odd reason, they are n- never allowed to be within
1:29:21
the institutions, it seems.
1:29:22
So it seems to always have to come back to Christianity.
1:29:25
But if it, if it is gonna do that, then w- I think we need to look for that
1:29:30
environmental aspect of Christianity, which up until now has not been there.
1:29:34
You know, it, it, it's very interesting to me when people talk, talk of themselves
1:29:37
as Christians and then you're like, "Well, what about stewarding the creation?"
1:29:41
And then why isn't that the conversation?
1:29:43
So would it be something like that if, at the foster kid level, and then
1:29:48
perhaps on into the prison level?
1:29:51
I'm, I'm just trying to envisage.
1:29:52
You need those spiritual leaders, but you need spiritual leaders that are going to
1:29:56
be accepted by the authorities You know, so it, they'd have to come from within
1:30:01
that sort of church structure, right?
1:30:03
Russell Craig: But no, because like when I- No?
1:30:05
When I'm, when I'm speaking of spirituality, I'm not
1:30:08
talking about Christianity.
1:30:09
I'm not a Christian.
1:30:10
You know what I mean?
1:30:10
So like I was talking more of all those tr- those traditional ones you
1:30:14
was talking about when you speaking of like Native and, and, and the other
1:30:19
examples that you did- Would those
1:30:20
Rupert Isaacson: be allowed in, in the prison environment?
1:30:22
Russell Craig: Not about, it's not about what's allowed.
1:30:24
I think- Okay
1:30:24
I think it needs, I think it needs to happen, and it needs â¦ And like, and
1:30:28
you don't gotta force it to nobody that this is what you need to believe in.
1:30:31
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:30:31
Russell Craig: It's all about us doing the research and, and
1:30:35
presenting to the kids and teaching them like that this is a thing.
1:30:38
Th- it's just like if we was planning
1:30:39
I'll give you an example, and this is a good example because recently we went to,
1:30:44
it's a garden that we that we go to here.
1:30:46
There's a lady, she has a really nice garden and allows us to, to â¦ She
1:30:50
said, "You can come and take anything you want at any time you want," right?
1:30:53
So one day we went there, and she had a gardener there.
1:30:56
And then, and then she was so happy that we were there, and she was explaining
1:30:58
all this stuff to us and some stuff that we don't know nothing about.
1:31:01
Like, I don't know nothing about gardening, like,
1:31:03
and, and, and like growing.
1:31:04
So I know you put a seed in and you water it, it can grow, but there's
1:31:07
like things that you should know.
1:31:08
It's knowledge that you need to know about the soil and every- it's like all
1:31:12
this stuff that she was breaking down just in the, the, the short time we was
1:31:15
with her, 'cause she didn't even stay the whole time when we was picking stuff.
1:31:18
She kind of introduced us to the areas of like this is here, that's there, and
1:31:22
she was giving us all these details.
1:31:23
She was very knowledgeable.
1:31:25
So if we are knowledgeable about like certain spirituality aspects in which we
1:31:29
know to be like proven to be beneficial, then it, then it, I don't think it
1:31:33
needs to be any per- permission because we're not pushing any idealog- like,
1:31:37
like, like religions in which they need to follow at all and things like that.
1:31:42
Rupert Isaacson: Like it could be a- You're not talking about, yeah, services
1:31:44
and spiritual ceremonies necessarily.
1:31:46
Russell Craig: Yeah, yeah, I'm not talking about anything that's like forced.
1:31:48
I'm talking about like, â¦ What's a good example?
1:31:53
Like we, like we talking about getting in tune with nature.
1:31:55
So you know, people m- mentioning grounding and things like that.
1:31:59
And then and the benefits of it.
1:32:01
You know, taking your shoes off, putting your feet in the grass and connecting to
1:32:04
the earth or placing your hand on a tree.
1:32:06
And then giving them the knowledge of, like, how is it beneficial?
1:32:09
Where's the facts that this is beneficial to your body and things like that.
1:32:13
Mm.
1:32:13
And just giving them that.
1:32:14
And that's helping them get in tune, and then we giving them the knowledge
1:32:17
behind it and things like that.
1:32:18
And it can be like a practice.
1:32:19
I think it would be, like, necessary.
1:32:21
It would go with everything.
1:32:22
It would go with, like, being around the horses- Mm â¦ being in the
1:32:25
nature, being around the trees, but then also connecting with them.
1:32:28
That's probably, that's not probably not in onâ¦
1:32:31
And then even in, and you mentioned Christianity, it is a whole lot of
1:32:34
wisdom in Chri- I'm not a Christian.
1:32:35
Oh, there is.
1:32:36
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:32:36
I'm not knocking the Christ
1:32:37
Russell Craig: message
1:32:37
Rupert Isaacson: at all.
1:32:37
Yeah.
1:32:38
There's a whole lot
1:32:38
Russell Craig: of wisdom.
1:32:38
There's a whole lot of wisdom in there.
1:32:40
So if we can, you know, pull something from the Bible that's,
1:32:42
like, real, and you give it to them.
1:32:44
Like, 'cause I do that.
1:32:45
I quote the Bible a lot.
1:32:47
You know what I'm saying?
1:32:47
Mm.
1:32:48
He who's without sin cast the first stone.
1:32:50
It be a whole lot of people that be judgemental about another person but
1:32:54
be, be, like, jacked up themselves.
1:32:56
Mm.
1:32:56
So how could you be so judgemental and want to, like, always
1:32:59
be critical of this person?
1:33:01
And and you be doing worse stuff, you know?
1:33:05
So-
1:33:06
Rupert Isaacson: Mm
1:33:07
â¦ Russell Craig: it be stuff like that, you know what I mean?
1:33:08
So, so yeah.
1:33:10
It's, and, and, and it don't gotta be, like set up at like, hey, this is church.
1:33:14
'Cause it could be- Mm-hmm â¦ you could have a cult kind of a thing.
1:33:17
And it's kind of like this thing, and you have to believe this thing.
1:33:19
And hey, everybody gather around.
1:33:21
Like a more natural environment of, like- Sure â¦ we giving all positivity.
1:33:25
And, and whatever knowledge you got, you share it with the group.
1:33:28
And that, and that can go for everybody.
1:33:30
It be times whenâ¦
1:33:32
I'll give you an example.
1:33:32
My daughter, she's 11 now and coming to visit soon.
1:33:35
She she she live in North Carolina.
1:33:38
And one day she was like, "Yeah, could you get me these paint markers?"
1:33:41
She was, like, eight.
1:33:43
I think she was, like, eight.
1:33:44
And they was, like, professional paint mark- They was like, they
1:33:46
wasn't like little kid markers.
1:33:48
And I be using them.
1:33:49
And it was, like, for her, for her toâ¦
1:33:50
She introduced them to me.
1:33:52
And, and then they be coming in really handy because they go over the painting.
1:33:55
Like, certain markers won't go over, like, paintings I do, but these
1:33:58
are actual paint markers that can be incorporated into what I do.
1:34:02
And I'm like, oh, that's awesome.
1:34:03
I bought them for her, but when I went to get them, I
1:34:05
said, "Oh, I'll try these out."
1:34:07
And and, and she, if it wasn't for her bringing them to my
1:34:09
attention at eight years old, I wouldn't even know that they exist.
1:34:12
And you know how many times they come in handy?
1:34:14
They come in so handy.
1:34:15
I was like, damn.
1:34:16
Like, she, she added a, a, another medium to my practice as a eight-year-old.
1:34:22
I don't even know how she knew about these markers.
1:34:25
Paint markers, professional marker.
1:34:26
They're not little kid markers.
1:34:28
So, so it be stuff like that.
1:34:30
You just never know.
1:34:31
So as a community, they say each one teach one.
1:34:34
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
1:34:36
If you are thenâ¦
1:34:37
Okay, so let's say, Within prisons, the, if there was some opportunity for horses,
1:34:45
and as you say, there are horse programs.
1:34:47
Unfortunately, some of them have been shut down recently, but there have
1:34:50
been horse programs, notably in, in Arizona and places like that with,
1:34:54
with prison programs with horses.
1:34:56
And we're gonna actually talk, have a guy on the show called Randy Helm quite soon
1:34:59
who pioneered that, and it'll be very interesting to hear what he has to say.
1:35:03
But then let's talk about when people come out.
1:35:06
So I'm quite used to working with the, the â¦ Or, or, or let's say the, the
1:35:11
closest I c- I can imagine in my current work to this is we work with veterans,
1:35:16
but we also work with active service.
1:35:18
So when we work, for example, with the German army, the people that we're working
1:35:22
with are quite often deployed, and often special forces deployed, but they can't
1:35:27
talk about what they are going to do 'cause the missions are secret, so they're
1:35:31
not allowed to talk to their families.
1:35:32
So the families are, to some degree, estranged from each other.
1:35:36
So we put together camps where they come together and, okay, we're not
1:35:39
talking about what you're doing out there, but we can talk about other
1:35:43
things and facilitate other things and have these times in nature with horses.
1:35:47
And then, of course, when people come out of the military particularly
1:35:50
out of active service, they usually, if they've been deployed in combat,
1:35:54
then there's almost always trauma.
1:35:55
And of course you don't have to go to combat to have trauma.
1:35:58
There's plenty of ways to get trauma in life.
1:36:00
So and then we also work with a lot of first responders who are going with,
1:36:03
through trauma all the time, you know.
1:36:04
Those are the guys who are out there, the fire department, you know, scraping
1:36:08
the brains off the freeway every Saturday night when everyone's, you know, smashing
1:36:12
up their cars and k- dying, you know.
1:36:15
And these people who are out there cleaning up the mess and helping
1:36:19
everybody out are trying not to disappear into a vodka bottle or,
1:36:23
you know, into methamphetamine because they're dealing with a lot of
1:36:26
depression and, and so on and so on.
1:36:28
So when people are coming out of prison, I should imagine that it's, to some
1:36:33
degree, must be similar to some degree.
1:36:36
And there must be â¦ Correct me if I'm wrong.
1:36:39
Is there an initial euphoria of, "Oh my God, I'm out, this is amazing"?
1:36:44
And then is there almost immediately a sort of a, a, a, a plunge of
1:36:49
a, "Now what am I gonna do?"
1:36:50
And you know, h- how do, how â¦ What's the best way to deal with this?
1:36:55
Russell Craig: I would say for, for that another good question,
1:36:58
but that's like, it- that differs with with, with every individual.
1:37:03
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
1:37:03
Russell Craig: Now, a lot of, a lot of folks come out and, and,
1:37:06
and there's gonna be some joy that, that you leave in, like, prison.
1:37:10
But then there be some that be, like, really 'cause, 'cause you was like,
1:37:13
do it, like, go true for everybody.
1:37:15
No, I don't think, 'cause there's some people who has, had, who has support.
1:37:19
So they get out, they happy, they celebrated, they're re- they're received.
1:37:23
People, they, you know, and, like, and help them get back on track.
1:37:26
See, me, I didn't, for me being a foster care care person, I didn't
1:37:30
have that family kind of structure.
1:37:33
Had nothing waiting for me
1:37:36
I had to stay in a halfway house, like, way longer than you were supposed to.
1:37:39
A halfway house is, like, somewhere you would go 'cause you're halfway.
1:37:43
They call it halfway houses.
1:37:44
You're halfway in prison, halfway out, back into society.
1:37:47
So you go into the halfway house first, and that's where you gotta findâ¦
1:37:50
They give you a certain amount of time to find a job or you'll
1:37:53
be a violator, and you go back to prison and things like that.
1:37:56
So you'll have some dudes that dread it, that be like, "Oh, what I'm gonna do?"
1:37:59
'Cause they don't be having no job set up no way to, like,
1:38:03
feed themselves or whatever.
1:38:04
And then, then you, then you be on parole, which would al- have all
1:38:08
these, It's like a system that's set up for you to go back to prison.
1:38:10
It's really crazy, really unfortunate- Mm â¦ because it's s- all these
1:38:14
rules and things, and it'sâ¦
1:38:16
And then you can violate parole and be back in prison.
1:38:19
And parole is something that if you get sentenced to 10 years, or five to 10,
1:38:23
meaning five years in prison, you're eligible for be on parole, meaning you
1:38:28
do five years on parole out in society.
1:38:31
But if you do anything violated, you go back to prison for that remaining five.
1:38:34
So you could do a whole 10 years in prison if you can't
1:38:38
find job placements and stuff.
1:38:41
So you be having some people who be not so happy about leaving prison
1:38:45
because they don't be having nothing left for them, and then they also
1:38:48
be having, like, the streets.
1:38:49
Same stuff.
1:38:50
So you have now not only is you going back to the streets, now you have
1:38:54
all this, the, this, this conditions on you that you can go back to st-
1:38:58
jail even quicker than you did.
1:39:00
And then you gotta keep ca- checking in.
1:39:03
You gotta do piss tests and things like can't do any drugs.
1:39:06
They say you can't be in an area with other im- like, it's mass incarceration.
1:39:11
It's, like, all these people in the, in, in, in the, in the hood then
1:39:14
went to jail and things like that.
1:39:15
So if you can be violated by if I'm in the presence of someone else that's from
1:39:20
the prisons, like, that's in the prison system or went, was, went through theâ¦
1:39:24
Like, if you a, a prior criminal, that's a violation 'cause you hanging with him.
1:39:28
But that's, like, almost everybody in the hood.
1:39:30
So your parole officer pop up on you, and you standing next to this
1:39:33
guy, and he he also went through the system, you can go to jail.
1:39:37
You- Wow.
1:39:38
You, you can't have a phone, but then you need a phone.
1:39:41
How can a job call you if you put in applications and, and
1:39:44
you, you waiting for a call?
1:39:46
But they say you're not allowed to have cell phone on parole.
1:39:50
This is crazy.
1:39:51
It's, like, insane.
1:39:51
So how do you
1:39:52
Rupert Isaacson: stay out of jail with the, with the
1:39:53
Russell Craig: way- Oh, it's a long list.
1:39:54
I can't even remember all of them.
1:39:55
It's a long list.
1:39:56
No, it's set up to, likeâ¦
1:39:57
So the way it's set up with all that stuff, with them, the little examples
1:40:00
I gave you- You can't go outside.
1:40:03
It be like you give them your address of where you gonna be,
1:40:05
you can't go outside of this.
1:40:07
What if my job, this job that I found is outside of the map?
1:40:11
They give you a map and what you can't.
1:40:12
I wanted to make a art some art about this, a series of art about
1:40:15
how ridiculous that list is.
1:40:18
And I won't even me- mention a few things.
1:40:20
I don't got the whole thing memorized.
1:40:21
It's a long list of things that can get you back.
1:40:23
And then they ask you a question of how.
1:40:26
It, it, it's really no, it is no how, 'cause, like, if they might can get you.
1:40:30
So it's aboutâ¦
1:40:31
A- a- and some of the parole officers are really dicks.
1:40:34
So, like, they the ones that they'll put you back in prison.
1:40:37
And it's set up, that system thing I'm telling you, that allows them
1:40:40
to can put you in for anything.
1:40:42
So you, you have to be fortunate by God that you don't have one that's,
1:40:47
like, driven to put you back.
1:40:49
'Cause if you get one that don't like you, you're going back, and that's
1:40:52
how, that's, like, kind of how it goes.
1:40:54
So the way to, to curve it, you have to have, when the inside, you
1:40:58
gotta somehow set up structure.
1:41:01
Like, have things set up and hopefully that you fortunate enough.
1:41:03
I ain't have all that.
1:41:05
So that was another reason why art was so serious.
1:41:07
Like, it be some people swear that that that, like, things
1:41:11
that happen with me is luck.
1:41:12
You know what I'm saying?
1:41:13
But they don't understand the planning and me the, and the understanding that I
1:41:16
had of what I was gonna be dealing with.
1:41:19
So I, like, you know, it was, like, phenomenal how I was able to, like,
1:41:25
actually execute the plan of, like, I'll use art as, like, my, my, my, my, my, my,
1:41:30
my navigation, like, system through all that madness that I was explaining to you
1:41:38
Rupert Isaacson: A lot of people must not have any structures to
1:41:41
come back out to, and they don't have a great talent for art.
1:41:46
And even if they did, I mean, you know, it's j- talent's not enough.
1:41:50
You know, you, you, you have to have a certain kind of organized mind and
1:41:54
drive and understand, you know, the system that you're trying to enter.
1:41:59
What is the art world?
1:42:00
How do I enter it?
1:42:00
You know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
1:42:02
How do youâ¦
1:42:03
Wouldâ¦
1:42:03
If you were, if you were a parole officer and you were going to
1:42:08
help somebody navigate this, what would you suggest they do?
1:42:14
Russell Craig: Well-
1:42:14
Rupert Isaacson: A good parole officer
1:42:16
â¦ Russell Craig: well, and I, and I had one too.
1:42:18
He was like, he was this military dude, and he was like, so for me,
1:42:23
my, my pers- my, my experience and then I'll try to answer your question
1:42:26
with like how do somebody else do it.
1:42:28
Well, yeah, I can, I can tie it to what I did.
1:42:30
Like, I had a plan long time ago.
1:42:32
I had a plan.
1:42:34
So, I did seven year- they, I, I did 12 years total, and I did
1:42:38
seven on my last time that I was in prison, my last prison stay.
1:42:42
So with those years leading up to my release, I was thinking of
1:42:49
Oh, oh, my apologies.
1:42:52
Rupert Isaacson: No worries.
1:42:53
Russell Craig: I was thinking about my release all the time.
1:42:57
Like, I never, I neverâ¦
1:42:58
Remember when I sa- stated how, like, I w- I didn't really get into, like, doing too
1:43:02
much of the, like, prison kind of stuff?
1:43:04
And I dipped and dabbed in it.
1:43:05
It was times I played chess, it was times I played spades.
1:43:08
But I was m- majority, I'm talking 85%, I'm gonna say that's a fair,
1:43:13
that's a fair number, 85% art.
1:43:17
And not only just art, thinking of howâ¦
1:43:20
And, and I was doing pretty good with my, like, business inside there, like
1:43:23
making the portraits for people or whatever 'cause I never got visits.
1:43:26
I've never got no letters, n- none of that.
1:43:28
I don't have family structure.
1:43:30
And I was one of the very few that, that had nobody.
1:43:33
And the only dudes that was like me was the, if you've been there for many
1:43:36
years, and you like 90 years old and everybody you, in your family died.
1:43:40
So those the type of people that never had nobody.
1:43:42
For me to be, I'm, I'm 19, 20, and never getting visits and
1:43:45
stuff like that was unheard of.
1:43:47
So I was just focusing.
1:43:48
So and then that also created urgency for me, too, 'cause it's
1:43:52
like nobody to to, like, help you.
1:43:54
So it makes me, like, really be like having to figure
1:43:57
out, like, how, like nothing.
1:43:58
Like, no kind of support.
1:43:59
No girlfriend, no-
1:44:00
Rupert Isaacson: But you didn't know when you were on the inside
1:44:01
how to get stuff into galleries, how to break into the art world- Oh,
1:44:06
Russell Craig: yeah.
1:44:06
No, none of that.
1:44:07
Rupert Isaacson: None of that â¦ so what was the plan?
1:44:09
Russell Craig: Wait, just to do it.
1:44:10
Just to, just to do it.
1:44:12
Like how I said, just to build it.
1:44:13
So you can a- add this to what I'm trying to say to you right now-
1:44:16
Mm-hmm â¦ 'cause I done did it.
1:44:17
I did it with nothing, with absolute nothing, with just a dream.
1:44:20
No support, nothing.
1:44:22
No experience and nothing- So
1:44:24
Rupert Isaacson: what were the first steps?
1:44:25
You get out.
1:44:26
Russell Craig: Your first steps is here.
1:44:29
Mm-hmm.
1:44:29
Your mental.
1:44:30
Your first steps is believing.
1:44:32
Your first steps is truly believing first.
1:44:37
Second is the planning Plan it out.
1:44:41
You gotta visualize it.
1:44:43
I mastermind, then go after mind.
1:44:45
Then I
1:44:46
Rupert Isaacson: see- So, right, but what was the plan?
1:44:48
I mean, I'm, I'm intrigued.
1:44:50
Russell Craig: To be an artist.
1:44:51
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:44:52
Russell Craig: No plan B.
1:44:53
Th- that's how it, that's how I did it, no lie.
1:44:55
I told you, I have a p- proof.
1:44:57
We can go back to the conversation in the beginning of this, of this Zoom.
1:45:00
Mm.
1:45:01
And I have that piece prophesized on the African American Museum of
1:45:05
Philadelphia when I kind of first, my, my, my first years out of, like
1:45:09
when I was just getting released because that's what I was doing inside.
1:45:13
I told you.
1:45:14
I even stated out my mouth, "I'm gonna be a famous artist."
1:45:17
That's what I told dudes, "I'm gonna be a famous artist," and really
1:45:20
was crazy enough to believe so.
1:45:22
So that's where it come from.
1:45:24
And then after that, and I stated earlier in the Zoom, I said,
1:45:28
I am saying that I'm notâ¦
1:45:30
This is what I want yourâ¦
1:45:31
This is if they don't take away nothing else, your listeners.
1:45:34
I'm not the guy who say stuff 'cause it sound cool.
1:45:37
Put me on the camera, I'm gonna say all this stuff, and I'm
1:45:39
this guy and I'm this guru.
1:45:41
I'm this professional and I know how to tell you all this stuff.
1:45:44
I'm telling you exactly what happened.
1:45:45
I'm, I'm a person that had nothing.
1:45:48
All my life I had nothing.
1:45:50
I had nobody.
1:45:51
I had nothing.
1:45:52
Nobody, nothing.
1:45:54
I, I, I, just understand that.
1:45:55
Not even a little bit of something.
1:45:57
Nothing.
1:45:58
And then once I got into that prison system, I said, "I
1:46:01
have to escape this world."
1:46:03
I had a, a visualization of like where I was at and a realization,
1:46:06
an epiphany of like, whoa, I'm in like captivity for real.
1:46:10
Like, even if you leave this prison, I told you, with the parole and all
1:46:14
that stuff, it's, is a trap for you.
1:46:16
It'd be a lot of people, they'd be like, "It's amazing how you was
1:46:18
able to get up out of there," thing.
1:46:20
I had a clear decision.
1:46:22
I was like, I'm, I want out of here.
1:46:24
Like, I want out of this.
1:46:25
Like, they like in the Matrix and the new slavery, all of that.
1:46:29
I'm a runaway slave.
1:46:30
I'm out of here.
1:46:32
So then, and it, and it came with like, okay, how do you escape?
1:46:35
So it was about.
1:46:36
And then I said, "I'm gonna use art."
1:46:39
If I was able to do and, and sell art and stuff in that kind of environment
1:46:43
with dudes, it's their family sending them money, and they giving the
1:46:46
money that's being sent to them to me in, in that kind of environment,
1:46:49
then I'll say I can make it.
1:46:51
They say if you can make it in New York, you can make it in anywhere.
1:46:53
If you can make it in prison, you can make it anywhere.
1:46:56
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
1:46:56
Russell Craig: So then, and then it's the energy.
1:46:58
And then I say it goes beyond you.
1:46:59
Then once you take those steps, it goes beyond you after that.
1:47:02
Then it's stuff coming from, and it's, it's people choose not to believe in
1:47:06
like a god or if you want to say it's the universe, good karma, like I try to do
1:47:11
things in good intentions or whatever, then there be things that be happening.
1:47:14
You know what I'm saying?
1:47:15
I flew back yesterday here.
1:47:19
I changed my seat in a plane.
1:47:21
True story that I was gonna keep to myself.
1:47:22
I said I'm working on some stuff.
1:47:24
I stated earlier, I said-
1:47:28
That I was gonna rush a thing, and then I said, "No, let me take my time
1:47:33
a little bit with this and then really present something nice for the guy who
1:47:37
runs Louis Vuitton wife who's sitting next to me on the plane yesterday
1:47:40
when I changed my seat last minute."
1:47:42
Will told me, "Stop buying first class tickets."
1:47:46
I said, "Nah," 'cause you never kn- one, you never know who you gonna sit next to.
1:47:50
This is my thoughts and what I decided to do.
1:47:52
I said, "Nah, I'ma get first class 'cause youâ¦"
1:47:54
And also I'm transporting a lot of stuff.
1:47:56
With first class you allowed to have heavier bags, and I'm transporting my
1:48:00
stuff from New York was the two reasons, and then the other reason was, like,
1:48:03
you never know who you sit next to.
1:48:04
I was in the back of the first class.
1:48:06
It's like four rows.
1:48:08
Last minute as you could check in on your phone, I moved my seat
1:48:12
to the front just instinctively
1:48:16
I always have my headphones on, play the game and shit.
1:48:19
I'm, I'm giving you example how things happen be beyond you once you on the path.
1:48:23
Things will happen that you didn't plan.
1:48:24
There's no The, the, the, the airport attendant take my bag
1:48:29
and say, "You gotta put it up," 'cause I had it under the seat.
1:48:31
It was a Louis Vuitton bag.
1:48:33
And he said, "Oh, that's a nice bag."
1:48:34
I said, "Yeah, it's Louis Vuitton, vintage."
1:48:36
She said, "That's Louis Vuitton.
1:48:37
My husband own Louis Vuitton."
1:48:39
And next thing you know, now I'm doing paintings for her or whatever.
1:48:42
I didn't plan that.
1:48:44
I didn't even know who she was.
1:48:46
That was yesterday, and then after the Zoom we going to her.
1:48:49
She has a f- a, a dog rescue thing that me and Will going to after the Zoom is over.
1:48:54
Mm.
1:48:54
And then she want me to do like four paintings.
1:48:57
Didn't plan that.
1:48:59
Once you get on the path, it, and that, I could give you these examples
1:49:02
over and over and over again.
1:49:04
Then I said while I'm eating, now they gave us our peanuts and stuff,
1:49:06
and I was like, "You wanna know what?
1:49:08
I have all this Louis Vuitton," said, "I've been planning
1:49:10
for this before it happened.
1:49:12
I got all this Louis Vuitton.
1:49:14
You want me to run upstairs and come back down with the receipts?
1:49:16
I got the receipts."
1:49:17
'Cause I, I kept them to, toâ¦
1:49:19
They come in a orange I got a whole lot of receipts upstairs, a whole lot.
1:49:22
I will, will run and show them to you.
1:49:24
I held them for years 'cause I said, "I'ma, I'm, I'ma do some art
1:49:27
with this," and I never rushed it.
1:49:29
I had those for years.
1:49:30
I got all these Louis Vuitton on, people that got Louis Vuitton, they know.
1:49:34
I have garment bags, and they're canvas, and I saved them 'cause I
1:49:38
was like, "One day I'm gonna do art."
1:49:39
So now, and then that's why I held up, 'cause I coulda did a, she sent
1:49:42
me some pictures of her on her horse and things like that, and I was
1:49:46
gonna paint it, s- get it painted real quick and today show her.
1:49:49
Like, "Look how fast I did it.
1:49:50
Look, it look just like you," dah, dah, dah.
1:49:52
I said, "No, I'ma use the materials from Louis Vuitton, put them
1:49:55
together, and then paint her on her Louis Vuitton, her business on
1:49:59
her stuff," and not gonna rush it.
1:50:02
I didn't plan it.
1:50:03
Well- Mm â¦ parts of it I kind of prepared it because I, I saved all
1:50:07
these Louis Vuitton materials for this.
1:50:09
And this is a true story.
1:50:10
The head of Louis Vuitton's wife I'm doing work for that I met randomly,
1:50:14
because like certain things start opening up for you once you get on a path.
1:50:19
Rupert Isaacson: This, this I absolutely get.
1:50:20
What I'm trying, let's go back to putting together in our mind, okay, someone's
1:50:25
coming out of jail, and now maybe they're coming to our therapeutic riding place.
1:50:31
They will have a parole officer.
1:50:33
Let's say you were that parole officer.
1:50:37
You were a good parole officer.
1:50:39
What would be the first piece of guidance, or what would be like the
1:50:43
five main pieces of guidance that you would give to somebody coming out?
1:50:49
And then what can we as the equine therapeutic practitioners
1:50:54
learn from that to back that up?
1:50:56
Okay, so now you, you're the parole officer.
1:50:59
What are you telling the dude when he comes out?
1:51:01
Russell Craig: It, it's kind of hard because like, okay,
1:51:05
well let me put it like this.
1:51:06
So I would have to see in the certain individual-
1:51:11
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm
1:51:11
â¦ Russell Craig: the potential, the potential for me to even tell them
1:51:14
anything, because a lot of them don't wanna hear it or don't care.
1:51:18
So you'll, you'll be able to like, and I'm really good with
1:51:20
like- judging character and, like, feeling energy of, like, a person.
1:51:25
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
1:51:25
Russell Craig: So, like, if it's one of those ones that, like, you think
1:51:28
got potential, then that's the ones who you, who you, who you'll give advice to.
1:51:33
Then even will probably have to assist in ways.
1:51:36
Like, not only just tell them what they need to do.
1:51:39
K- help them.
1:51:39
'Cause, like, I have a understanding that knowing it's not that, it's
1:51:42
not that easy for them to be getting out of, like, their situations and
1:51:46
going into something different.
1:51:48
You know what I mean?
1:51:48
So you would, you would, like, explain.
1:51:51
And then you would have that, you would have people giving you positiv-
1:51:54
positivity and, and even with, I told you I had a good dude that's military dude.
1:51:58
I think he was, like- Like, he was a parole officer, but then he
1:52:02
also â¦ Yeah, I think he still was like â¦ See, he, he, he had some kind
1:52:05
of involvements in military still.
1:52:07
He wasn't even ex-military.
1:52:09
But he was, like, a positive dude, you know what I mean?
1:52:11
So and then he was
1:52:12
And I was, like, getting invited to the White House and all this stuff
1:52:16
and doing the murals and- But not
1:52:17
Rupert Isaacson: immediately upon leaving jail you weren't, so-
1:52:19
Russell Craig: Yeah.
1:52:20
Yeah, yeah
1:52:20
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: were you?
1:52:21
Russell Craig: Yeah.
1:52:22
I started popping ASAP.
1:52:24
ASAP.
1:52:24
I was in a halfway house on getting on the â¦ And I was on the news all the time.
1:52:29
That's how Agnes Gund seen me all the way in New York and all that stuff.
1:52:31
I know.
1:52:32
I'm trying to tell you.
1:52:33
I was invited to the White House when Obama was there.
1:52:35
Rupert Isaacson: How did you, how did you get seen and discovered in the halfway
1:52:37
Russell Craig: house?
1:52:37
I was, I was out there doing murals.
1:52:40
Okay.
1:52:40
Oh, I landed a job with Mural Arts while I was in prison, so as soon as I â¦ Because
1:52:45
for parole, you have a parole meeting, and I'm not talking about being on parole.
1:52:49
You have to have a parole meeting before you leave prison, right?
1:52:52
And then one of the things they be like, "So what you gonna do for work?"
1:52:54
And this is how they get people, because a lot of dudes, you in
1:52:57
prison, how you gonna get a job?
1:52:58
How you got a job set up?
1:52:59
Mm-hmm.
1:53:00
But Mural Arts of Philadelphia came to the prison and was doing
1:53:03
They, they had, like, some inmates that was making murals in the inside,
1:53:06
and I wasn't part of that program.
1:53:08
But I went there in a kind of unauthorized area because I had a
1:53:11
plan that I was gonna be a artist, and then I heard about the art thing.
1:53:14
So the Mural
1:53:14
Rupert Isaacson: Arts of Philadelphia, you were aware of this, and you targeted them.
1:53:20
Yeah.
1:53:20
And then that was your springboard.
1:53:23
Russell Craig: Yeah.
1:53:24
They had a meeting and stuff.
1:53:24
Okay.
1:53:24
I, I got-
1:53:25
Rupert Isaacson: All right.
1:53:25
See, this is the journalist in me- Yeah â¦ peeling back the onion layers.
1:53:29
Because if I was the parole officer, I might say, "Okay, listen.
1:53:32
I know this guy Russell.
1:53:35
He made this plan, and he â¦ For a while he was just telling
1:53:40
me, 'No, no, it just happens.
1:53:41
You know, the universe â¦' And yes, the universe is a big part
1:53:43
of it, but he also had a plan.
1:53:45
I wanted to know what that plan was.
1:53:46
And finally he told me, 'Ah, yes, there was this organization,
1:53:50
Mural Arts of Philadelphia.
1:53:51
I started doing some stuff on the inside for them, and when I came
1:53:56
to the outside, there it was and I could springboard up from that.'"
1:54:00
Russell Craig: No, and I, and I went â¦ No, I went unauthorized area.
1:54:03
Okay.
1:54:03
Like, I wasn't even a part of their program.
1:54:05
I, I, like, when I just got there.
1:54:07
Right.
1:54:07
Like, I went above and beyond to get where I needed.
1:54:09
Rupert Isaacson: But you knew that they existed, and you knew to go there.
1:54:12
Russell Craig: Yeah.
1:54:13
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:54:13
Russell Craig: Yeah.
1:54:13
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:54:14
Russell Craig: Yeah.
1:54:14
Rupert Isaacson: See, that's the kind of information which people
1:54:16
may or may not have, right?
1:54:18
And I'm just thinking in terms of â¦ So let's say for example we were this
1:54:22
therapeutic riding place, and maybe there were artists coming out of jail.
1:54:26
And maybe we would have a series of mural walls That these artists could,
1:54:35
that maybe there'd even be some funding to pay them to put together some art
1:54:40
on these things, so they could turn to their parole officer and say, "See?
1:54:43
I'm doing this, and I'm getting paid for this."
1:54:46
And then perhaps we would then invite people from the art world to come
1:54:50
and look at some of these murals.
1:54:51
And then you've suddenly harnessed your own experience to help people coming out.
1:55:01
And then you might say, "Well, okay, but they're not all artists,
1:55:03
so what are the, what are the other equivalents for the other arts?
1:55:07
What are the other equivalents for music, or what are the other equivalents ofâ¦"
1:55:10
And then, well, some of them are budding scientists.
1:55:12
What are, what are some of those things that we could do?
1:55:14
And one could put perhaps together that sort of an infrastructure around
1:55:19
a therapeutic place, a therapeutic riding place, where they also perhaps
1:55:22
have to look after the horses to, who are gonna help these kids or
1:55:26
whatever, so there's gi- give back.
1:55:29
But suddenly I'm seeing what one might do for those people coming out.
1:55:36
Now, as you say, they'd have to want to.
1:55:39
You can take a horse to water, you can't make it drink.
1:55:41
I mean, you, you can only give the opportunities, but that plan
1:55:47
that you had in jail and that you then executed, someone else might
1:55:52
not know, but you could make that available in, in a way like that.
1:55:57
That's the sort of way, how my brain goes.
1:56:00
It's like one person's success story can become a more general success story.
1:56:05
Yeah.
1:56:05
Yeah.
1:56:06
Access again.
1:56:06
So much of it seems to come down to access, and access seems to come
1:56:10
down to knowing what to access.
1:56:14
That the, that something like Mural Arts Philadelphia even exists.
1:56:19
Like, I, I didn't know that until you told me, you know?
1:56:22
Yeah.
1:56:23
Russell Craig: Most murals produced in the world,
1:56:25
Rupert Isaacson: it's Philadelphia murals.
1:56:27
And they, they, they do them on public, they do them on buildings around
1:56:30
i, i, in the city as, as sort of f-
1:56:33
Russell Craig: Big world.
1:56:34
They do the most in the world.
1:56:36
Rupert Isaacson: That's so interesting.
1:56:37
Do you know the, the history of that?
1:56:38
Why?
1:56:38
Why it's Philadelphia, and who, who started it?
1:56:41
Russell Craig: So her name is Jane Golden, and she started it about 40 years ago.
1:56:47
And they just be pumping murals out.
1:56:49
And, â¦ And then, like, me seeing the murals in the city and me having
1:56:52
my interest in art, I always was interested in art since a kid.
1:56:55
Mm-hmm.
1:56:56
So was, like, intrigued by the art an- and wi- and w- wondering,
1:56:59
like, how they do these murals so big on a whole big building.
1:57:03
And the things that used to cross my mind as I'm, like, walking down the
1:57:06
street and would see the, the art.
1:57:07
Mm.
1:57:08
So once I heard that they was, like, in the prison doing work in the prison.
1:57:12
And then, like, to get into the program you would have to wait for somebody
1:57:15
to die or whatever to get in, 'cause it was only limited, limited spots.
1:57:18
So they would either get out.
1:57:20
A lot of â¦ It was a g- quite a few lifers that was a part of that program.
1:57:24
And it was a quite a few programs in there that, like, it
1:57:26
something like the lifers had.
1:57:28
And it'd be hard for you to get in.
1:57:29
So if you had, like, a five to 10 and something like that, you
1:57:32
wouldn't get into a lot of these programs or these opportunities.
1:57:34
It seemed like it was kind of set up for the guys that
1:57:37
were gonna be there long term.
1:57:38
So I go to the library and then I sneak into the auditorium
1:57:42
where the art is being done.
1:57:43
I wasn't supposed to be there, but I just knew I needed to get to them people.
1:57:47
'Cause this is, like, I was telling you, I had no knowledge of no, no art, nobody.
1:57:51
So I didn't â¦ Like, that was my only thing I knew about.
1:57:55
Like, oh, these people do art.
1:57:56
Those are â¦ That's, that's the art world.
1:57:57
I was thinking that was the art world.
1:57:59
And murals is not the art world.
1:58:00
Like, art world is, like, MOMA and stuff like that.
1:58:02
You know what I mean?
1:58:03
But it's, but that's what I was thinking.
1:58:06
And it was, like, a stepping stone.
1:58:07
It was, like, a start.
1:58:09
Rupert Isaacson: Do you, do you â¦ How do they get the permission to put
1:58:12
the murals up on these buildings?
1:58:14
What's the process by which they get that?
1:58:15
Russell Craig: Oh, she was really connected with the city and things, so
1:58:18
she just knew people to connect with.
1:58:20
Like, the higher-ups, the, like, the folks.
1:58:22
'Cause that's what it's all about too.
1:58:23
That's an important thing to figure out.
1:58:25
You have to find the people who you need to connect with to even get
1:58:29
the ball rolling, and then just do the work after everything's set up.
1:58:33
Structure ha- happen first, and then you do it.
1:58:36
Rupert Isaacson: Something which I've often â¦ I agree.
1:58:38
S- something which I've often thought about with riding arenas, is that they
1:58:43
can function very well as art galleries.
1:58:46
And in fact, I've known some people do that, where they put down a f-
1:58:50
a floor and then use the riding arena for a different type of event.
1:58:54
Could be a music event, could be an art event, whatever.
1:58:57
And the, you know, these places could be showcasing local artists
1:59:02
and selling their work and showcasing their work and bringing the art world
1:59:09
into the therapeutic riding world, or bringing- Other worlds in together
1:59:15
that often what's so difficult is these things get separated.
1:59:18
No, we're just a horse place.
1:59:20
Like, well, yeah, but you could be like Starbucks with local
1:59:23
artists on the walls, couldn't you?
1:59:24
You know?
1:59:25
Why do things have to be separated in this way?
1:59:27
And it sometimes takes people coming in from radically different worlds.
1:59:32
You come in from a radically different world.
1:59:34
I come at the therapeutic and the horse world from a slightly different
1:59:37
place because of my background with journalism and activism.
1:59:42
So we might have ideas that an average place might not have that
1:59:46
then can go on to become the norm.
1:59:48
So I'm just wondering, if we put this program together then we should absolutely
1:59:53
have these opportunities, I think, for people coming out to work on, showcase,
1:59:58
and produce various types of art which are then, you know, included in the program.
2:00:06
Are you working on any murals right now?
2:00:08
Are you, are you still doing that?
2:00:10
Russell Craig: No, I'm not working on any murals, but I told you about
2:00:13
the, Well, I'm trying to, I got, I need to put a piece together for Boca.
2:00:16
I'm, like, in museums now, so murals I don't really do.
2:00:19
Oh, but we proposed to, and I've been accepted to the second round
2:00:23
about doing some public art.
2:00:24
And oh, we have to leave soon too.
2:00:26
We have 10 minutes toâ¦
2:00:27
How, how far is that thing?
2:00:30
It, we, it's 10 minutes away.
2:00:31
She just
2:00:31
Rupert Isaacson: said- Okay.
2:00:32
Well, we, we, we're approaching the, the two-hour mark, so we
2:00:34
can wrap up because there'sâ¦
2:00:36
Clearly we're gonna continue this conversation anyway.
2:00:38
But okay, so y- you know, your career is going.
2:00:41
You're, you're down there in Wellington.
2:00:43
W- we are, of course, talking about what might we do to bring our worlds together.
2:00:50
And that's exciting.
2:00:52
You need to run off to do your next art appointment today.
2:00:58
Russell Craig: There's a meeting.
2:00:59
Rupert Isaacson: What, what do you think if you were going to l- the
2:01:02
people who are watching this right now and listening to this are largely
2:01:07
probably female working with horses-
2:01:13
In the USA, in the UK, thinking about how they might help foster kids, how they
2:01:19
might look at people coming out of the system that you've come out of, et cetera.
2:01:23
What are, like, your closing words for them?
2:01:27
What advice do you have in terms of reaching out to the person that was
2:01:31
you as a kid, the person that was you incarcerated, the person that is you now?
2:01:37
Russell Craig: I would just say 'cause, like, sometime I meet people I met a few
2:01:40
lady friends, and they be like, "Oh, I work with kids," and things like that.
2:01:43
And sometime I can tell when they, like, are genuine and they,
2:01:46
like, a good person or whatever.
2:01:47
And then for them to have that decision to do that, to do that line
2:01:51
of work is, like, it's very important.
2:01:52
Because, like me, like my experience, I didn't have a lot
2:01:55
of support from, like, theâ¦
2:01:57
I was in an unfortunate kind of a thing.
2:01:59
But those who take that work but then they really care, is
2:02:03
it, that's like half the battle.
2:02:05
So then after that, it's all about just keep pushing, you know.
2:02:07
Reach out for help for whatever you're doing.
2:02:10
Don't just put all the burdens on their back.
2:02:12
You know what I'm saying?
2:02:13
And and, like, basically just that.
2:02:15
Just keep, just keep at it.
2:02:17
And connect with other, others like-minded, you know?
2:02:21
Because it be kids and things that, like, really need them.
2:02:24
Like, really though.
2:02:25
So, so that, that work is, like, when I be hearing, like, those type people
2:02:29
that wanna help, like, foster kids or young kids or troubled kids, like,
2:02:34
they're more heroes in my mind than, like, athletes and things like that.
2:02:37
To me, it's like they're just playing, like, a sport, and they was
2:02:40
interested in the sport as a kid.
2:02:42
And then they, like, entertaining people, whatever.
2:02:44
But, like, those folks that really, like, do things that help the, the,
2:02:49
the humanity, I mean kids and, like, doctors and stuff like that, is the thing
2:02:53
that I really take, tip my hat off to.
2:02:56
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
2:02:56
Russell Craig: So I would say for them to just keep on pushing.
2:02:58
And don't do it alone.
2:02:59
Like, reach out to other people that that's doing that kind of
2:03:02
work, and think of ways of how you can take it to the next level.
2:03:05
'Cause it could be overwhelming if you just go into a thing and
2:03:08
let it just overwhelm you, try, when you trying to do it all y-
2:03:11
by yourself and things like that.
2:03:14
Rupert Isaacson: And if, if someone had said, just before you go, if,
2:03:17
if, if, let's say you had been lucky enough to get out to a program
2:03:20
like this when you were a kid.
2:03:23
What would you like to have been said to you?
2:03:27
as the eight-year-old, 10-year-old, 11-year-old Russell?
2:03:33
Russell Craig: I don't know.
2:03:33
That's a, then that's a hard question 'cause it's like, what, what kind of
2:03:37
words could somebody could have told me at a young age that would've been so
2:03:40
Rupert Isaacson: helpful?
2:03:40
What kind of experience do you think would've benefited you the most?
2:03:46
Russell Craig: Just that environment.
2:03:47
Just a caring environment and with, with just like explo- exploring different
2:03:51
things, exposing me to different things when it come to like the nature,
2:03:56
the horses, the thing like that.
2:03:58
A staff of people that's like caring, and we teaching them things like, oh, we
2:04:02
mentioned spirituality or just knowledge.
2:04:05
Mm-hmm.
2:04:05
And just, and just a caring environment that's like nurturing to the growth of
2:04:08
the kid the way you would grow a plant, since we talk about nature, the way you
2:04:12
would take care of the horses properly.
2:04:14
You know what I'm saying?
2:04:15
A whole system of that.
2:04:17
And just being there is enough because those words and things like that
2:04:21
and experiences are gonna happen within that kind of environment-
2:04:24
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm
2:04:25
Russell Craig: that's created properly.
2:04:26
When, I had mentioned earlier about structure.
2:04:29
When it's built on good structure, it will stand.
2:04:34
Rupert Isaacson: Perfect.
2:04:35
All right, my friend.
2:04:36
I know you need to run, so thank you so much for this.
2:04:40
Russell Craig: You already know.
2:04:41
Rupert Isaacson: To be, to be continued, I think.
2:04:43
Russell Craig: Yes, yes.
2:04:44
I, I look forward to, like, coming in your neck of the woods.
2:04:48
Rupert Isaacson: It's gonna happen.
2:04:50
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