Latest / Podcasts By Donna Jodhan / Remarkable World Commentary Episode #35: Interview with Veronica Puente, Braille Teacher (K-12), Governor Morehead School for the Blind, Raleigh, North Carolina

Transcript

Remarkable World Commentary Episode #35: Interview with Veronica Puente, Braille Teacher (K-12), Governor Morehead School for the Blind, Raleigh, North Carolina · Podcasts By Donna Jodhan

• 0:12
  Podcast Commentator: Greetings. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, and MBA,
• 0:19
  invites you to listen to her biweekly podcast,
• 0:22
  Remarkable World Commentary.
• 0:24
  Here Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts,
• 0:27
  insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners.
• 0:31
  Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids,
• 0:35
  especially kids with disabilities.
• 0:38
  Donna is a blind advocate, author, sight loss coach,
• 0:42
  dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur,
• 0:46
  law graduate, and podcast commentator.
• 0:50
  She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge,
• 0:53
  skills, and expertise in access technology and information.
• 0:58
  As someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles,
• 1:02
  she just wants to make things better than possible.
• 1:07
  Donna J. Jodhan: Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Remarkable World Commentary.
• 1:14
  I'm Donna Jodhan, a lifelong disability advocate and one who sees the world mainly
• 1:23
  through sound, touch and stubborn optimism.
• 1:28
  I'm a law graduate, accessibility consultant,
• 1:33
  author, lifelong barrier buster who also happens to be blind.
• 1:40
  You may know me from a few headline moments.
• 1:44
  In November 2010, I won the Landmark Charter case that forced the Canadian government to
• 1:52
  make its website accessible to every Canadian,
• 1:57
  not just sighted ones.
• 2:00
  And in July of 2019, I co-led the Accessible Canada Act with more than two dozen
• 2:08
  disability groups to turn equal access into federal law.
• 2:15
  And most recently, on June 3rd, 2022, I was humbled by Her Late Majesty's
• 2:24
  Platinum Jubilee Award for tireless commitment to removing barriers.
• 2:32
  When I'm not in a courtroom or in a committee room or a portrait studio,
• 2:39
  you'll find me coaching kids with vision loss,
• 2:43
  producing audio mysteries, or helping tech companies make their gadgets
• 2:51
  talk back in plain language.
• 2:55
  Everything I do circles.
• 2:57
  One goal to turn accessibility from an afterthought into everyday practice.
• 3:06
  I invite you to think of the show as one shared workbench where policy meets lived
• 3:14
  experience and lived experience sparks fresh ideas.
• 3:20
  Now, before we jump into today's conversation,
• 3:25
  let me shine a quick spotlight on today's guest or changemaker,
• 3:31
  whose work is as every bit as remarkable as the world we're trying to build.
• 3:38
  Veronica Puente I would like to welcome you to my podcast.
• 3:43
  How are you doing today?
• 3:45
  Veronica Puente: I'm great. How are you?
• 3:47
  Donna J. Jodhan: Not too bad. Thank you.
• 3:49
  Veronica. You have made a very Insightful statement that I'd like to start with.
• 4:00
  You often say that Braille is literacy.
• 4:05
  And literacy is a human right.
• 4:10
  Could you walk our listeners through what that statement means in real world terms,
• 4:19
  or a blind student sitting in your classroom?
• 4:25
  Veronica Puente: Sure. Well, thank you so much for having me.
• 4:28
  I really appreciate this opportunity.
• 4:31
  I think what I think about braille and literacy going hand in hand.
• 4:36
  I think about the student who is not encouraged to learn how to read and write.
• 4:43
  As we know, they both go hand in hand.
• 4:45
  And I think about the student who graduates without being able to articulate their
• 4:51
  thoughts in multiple ways.
• 4:54
  Not just, you know, recording or, you know, taking notes,
• 4:58
  but being able to write simple journal, you know,
• 5:01
  using the Braille writers like stylus.
• 5:04
  I also think about a student who graduates and who perhaps has to go to a place that
• 5:10
  never been before, and like, they look for the elevator or,
• 5:13
  you know, the restroom, and they have to read the Braille and figure
• 5:16
  out, okay, you know, it's this elevator.
• 5:19
  Is this the women's bathroom?
• 5:20
  Is this a men's bathroom?
• 5:22
  Like, if they don't have that braille ability to read that,
• 5:26
  then it makes it very difficult for them to get around,
• 5:29
  and therefore it doesn't allow for independency and your identity of being
• 5:36
  treated as a human right.
• 5:38
  So I think, you know, that goes within that.
• 5:41
  And, you know, think about the students who graduate and don't get a job because they
• 5:45
  don't know how to articulate themselves in writing.
• 5:48
  They don't know how to write a simple email.
• 5:52
  They don't know how to write a simple, simple proposal.
• 5:55
  Like if they have to write something.
• 5:57
  It really goes hand in hand, you know, being able to access information at
• 6:03
  home as well. Like if they have to label something around the house,
• 6:06
  such as the washer or dryer, you know, it's it's the essential part
• 6:12
  because braille literacy is the bridge to everything else.
• 6:17
  And if you don't have that, then you don't have the equal life and equal
• 6:23
  access to everyone else does.
• 6:27
  Donna J. Jodhan: Do you think Braille will survive?
• 6:31
  Veronica Puente: I think I get very irritated with people, you know,
• 6:35
  says something like to that effect, kind of like,
• 6:38
  well, why do we bother teaching braille when you have technology?
• 6:42
  But it's like you would never say that to a sighted person.
• 6:45
  Like what will you read?
• 6:46
  Print. If you have the computer or you have everything else.
• 6:50
  Like. Right? Like you will never say that to a to a person who cited a case,
• 6:55
  who cited like, don't bother to learn how to read print because you know,
• 6:59
  you'll be able to type and you'll be able to read,
• 7:01
  like, how can you say that?
• 7:04
  And you know, for us who are blind, bro is the equivalent of print.
• 7:10
  So it has to be part of what we teach every day,
• 7:15
  whether, you know, the kid is going to university or just going to get a job after
• 7:20
  graduation. And even people who lose their sight later in life,
• 7:24
  they should still have access to everything else that people have,
• 7:28
  whether it's reading you know, regular menu in a restaurant or anything like
• 7:32
  that, for that matter.
• 7:33
  So I think it will be an issue.
• 7:39
  Donna J. Jodhan: So you were the first person in your family to attend college starting at Wake Tech and
• 7:49
  eventually earning your math teaching students with visual impairments.
• 7:59
  What personal turning points convinced you to trade a future in international diplomacy
• 8:09
  for life in the classroom?
• 8:15
  Veronica Puente: So I think for me, you know, being the first person in my family who was
• 8:19
  university into college was a huge achievement.
• 8:23
  But it was definitely with the challenges because,
• 8:25
  you know, I didn't have anyone who can help me,
• 8:28
  coach me through the process of like, the financial aid or what does it look like
• 8:33
  when you had to buy textbooks or like, you know,
• 8:36
  all those details on college life that I didn't have a family member to walk me
• 8:42
  through? I was blessed that I have mentors in the community who helped me through that
• 8:47
  process and helped me get to where I am today.
• 8:52
  I love learning about other people and other cultures,
• 8:55
  which is why my undergrad was in international relations.
• 8:58
  But I think for me, what really made me change my path until I went into education
• 9:05
  was a particular student of mine, like I was between undergrad and going into
• 9:11
  my master's program, I still didn't really know what I wanted to do. I thought I wanted
• 9:15
  to go study law because, you know, we all struggle with legal issues
• 9:20
  when you're blind and visually impaired.
• 9:22
  I mean, heck, when you have any type of disability,
• 9:25
  there's always some type of discrimination, whether we like it or not.
• 9:28
  So I was like, well, I'm going to go to a law degree and that's going to open more doors.
• 9:32
  But I got to volunteer here and there with different organizations.
• 9:37
  And then I got to work at the school for the blind.
• 9:41
  I was helping out. I wasn't really working, but I was helping out,
• 9:44
  and I was having a conversation with this younger student in elementary,
• 9:48
  and he says something like, well, we don't really know how to read
• 9:52
  Braille. And so and so doesn't really teach us because she doesn't think it's important.
• 9:58
  And that just kind of upset me so much, because this was a kid who was bright and who
• 10:04
  wanted to learn. And I knew, like, when I read aloud to him,
• 10:08
  he really loved the stories and he wanted to read,
• 10:11
  and I could tell he wanted to learn, but it was so difficult for him to access
• 10:15
  everything because he wasn't learning like he should have been.
• 10:19
  And I decided that I wanted to change the narrative because I knew that I could be a
• 10:25
  role model for these kids because they didn't see blind people who were capable,
• 10:30
  who have been, you know, to other countries outside of the United
• 10:33
  States. They never they weren't exposed to that.
• 10:36
  And I was like, okay it would be really cool to,
• 10:40
  of course, go outside and make a big difference in the world.
• 10:44
  But I could do that in my own community.
• 10:46
  I can do that in my own backyard.
• 10:48
  I can do that with my kids and make a difference here.
• 10:51
  It doesn't have to be in the international level.
• 10:55
  You know, perhaps someday it would be.
• 10:57
  But I know right now this is where I am supposed to be helping the kids in the
• 11:02
  classroom, not just learn the Braille, but having those conversations that sometimes
• 11:06
  they don't have anybody else to talk to.
• 11:11
  Donna J. Jodhan: I've kept in touch with this particular student.
• 11:16
  Veronica Puente: Sorry.
• 11:16
  Donna J. Jodhan: What was that? Have you kept in touch with this particular student?
• 11:20
  Veronica Puente: Yes, yes. We do. And he's he's really what really got my passion goal for education.
• 11:29
  So right now he's going through some health issues and stuff like that.
• 11:34
  But it has been great to have conversations with him about education and see how he still
• 11:40
  wants to learn and, you know, getting to work with other students.
• 11:43
  Now, the you know, I see that impact every day in the classroom.
• 11:49
  You know, just being able to see, you know, I just have a student who graduated
• 11:53
  and she's going into university in the fall.
• 11:56
  So, you know, being able to help her to that process because,
• 11:58
  you know, she asked me a lot of questions like,
• 12:01
  what is this? And how do you get orientation and mobility when you go to college?
• 12:06
  You know, things like that that they just don't have the role models,
• 12:12
  they can talk to them about this.
• 12:13
  So you know, I'm the teacher, but sometimes I joke that I like I can also
• 12:18
  be like that, you know, counselor, like, come and talk to me about,
• 12:21
  like, extra resources outside of the school.
• 12:25
  Because, you know, the school can only do so much right?
• 12:28
  When they graduate and they go out into the real world,
• 12:31
  it's when it really becomes scary in a way, because they don't know what to expect.
• 12:36
  And depending on where you go or university, I mean,
• 12:40
  even depending on what Well, professor, you have,
• 12:42
  it could really lead to other situations that you're going to need someone to reach out to
• 12:48
  and have that type of encouragement.
• 12:50
  So it has been wonderful that this one little student,
• 12:54
  this little kid who was like probably 8 or 7 at the time,
• 12:58
  changed my life completely because I was like,
• 13:01
  okay, this is where I want to be and where I need to be.
• 13:06
  It has been amazingly wonderful to be able to help one student at a time.
• 13:12
  Donna J. Jodhan: I think this is great.
• 13:15
  Many of our listeners may not realize that the Governor Morehead School serves students
• 13:25
  with multiple disabilities as well as blindness.
• 13:31
  How do you adapt Braille instruction?
• 13:35
  How do you adapt instruction for children who have additional learning or physical
• 13:43
  challenges.
• 13:46
  Veronica Puente: So for my other students so I have a pretty good amount of students who are,
• 13:51
  I guess you will say academic, but I also have some of the students who
• 13:54
  might have other disabilities like intellectual disabilities,
• 13:58
  or perhaps, you know, their tactile discrimination is not the best.
• 14:03
  So with them, what I try to use a lot of the time is more hands on.
• 14:08
  I mean, Braille is all hands down, but it's more like manipulatives,
• 14:11
  right? So I use, like, the Braille Legos.
• 14:14
  I have this, like, puppet where they can pop in the Braille cells.
• 14:20
  I have this I think it's called a screen braille cell.
• 14:23
  So they can take the pegs out and create the letters,
• 14:26
  like, one at a time. So we do writing with the pro writer,
• 14:31
  but I try to bring in things where they're using their hands,
• 14:35
  not just their fingers, but like, using their hand to manipulate,
• 14:39
  how to move different dots around, and they can feel the dots.
• 14:44
  Sometimes I have to take a book and rewrite it in flashcards so they can have multiple
• 14:51
  spaces, because some of my kids, they can only read Double Space and getting
• 14:56
  Braille books and double space and contracted is very difficult.
• 15:00
  So a lot of the students that I have that have other disabilities,
• 15:04
  they don't always get to learn the contractions, which is it's not a big deal
• 15:08
  for me. Because what I'm trying to do at that level is teach them functional braille.
• 15:14
  And what that means is, like I'm teaching them the alphabet and
• 15:17
  teaching them the the math, some of those math symbols.
• 15:20
  So when they graduate, they can, you know, learn how to add like
• 15:24
  simple math equations.
• 15:27
  They can label their food or their spices or their microwave or,
• 15:33
  you know, the oven or the dishwasher, things like that.
• 15:36
  Because, you know, they might not be able to learn all the contractions or be able to read
• 15:42
  a book like, I don't know, The Great Gatsby or Jane Austen,
• 15:46
  and that's totally fine. Like, they don't have to go that far in their
• 15:50
  sense. Maybe out of my kids, I tell them you have an individual goal.
• 15:55
  That's where we have the IEPs.
• 15:57
  But also you have an individual success story and you have your individual potential.
• 16:03
  So it's not about, oh, this student got this far and I didn't get
• 16:07
  this far. It's about where you are going and your own individual journey and Braille.
• 16:12
  So that's what I tried to do.
• 16:14
  Just make them part of the process.
• 16:16
  Right. Like, you know, usually talk to them and it's like,
• 16:19
  hey, we're going to work on your IP goals.
• 16:21
  What are some things you would like to work in the classroom?
• 16:24
  Obviously, you know, depending on the kid, if it's my elementary kiddos that I have,
• 16:29
  you know, they'll be like, oh, I want to play with Legos every day.
• 16:32
  Like, okay, we can't do that now.
• 16:34
  You know, I can't play Legos with you every day. We can't play Uno every day.
• 16:38
  We gotta do some writing.
• 16:40
  So I try to kind of mix that in, so it's a little bit of fun,
• 16:44
  but also like learning because, you know, that has to happen.
• 16:47
  They they need to learn how to write and how to read.
• 16:52
  And it takes it takes time to get to know your student individually and understand,
• 16:57
  okay, this student will benefit from this activity,
• 17:00
  or I need more hands on with this student, or we're going to use the desktop a tool with
• 17:05
  the student. So I do a little bit of everything,
• 17:09
  if you will.
• 17:11
  Donna J. Jodhan: I'm just curious. Do they still use the Perkins Broiler?
• 17:16
  Like the the big yes thing?
• 17:20
  Veronica Puente: So, yes. So primarily I have a couple of students who use the brothers play,
• 17:26
  so I'm. I'm kind of funny.
• 17:28
  I'm the kind of teacher who I don't give a Braille display to any student just because I
• 17:34
  have to have them get into a level where they can read a whole book.
• 17:38
  And by that, I don't mean like, you know, like I said they're already
• 17:42
  grasping, like they don't have to read a book that that big,
• 17:45
  but they have to read a book from front to back in.
• 17:51
  They had to be also mature for me to give them a broad display because those those are
• 17:57
  expensive. They're like, you know what? 2000 to like $6,000.
• 18:01
  Yeah. So they're not cheap devices at all.
• 18:04
  So I'm very particular, if you will, with how I'm giving the the
• 18:09
  student abroad display and why.
• 18:12
  So I have them use the writer a lot because I feel like they need to learn how to write and
• 18:19
  how to read it first. I want to work more in the same style,
• 18:23
  but that is a process.
• 18:26
  Like, some of my students run away from that.
• 18:28
  You know. Because they think it's too difficult and it's like,
• 18:32
  no, it's that it's gonna be fine.
• 18:34
  So that's definitely something that I want to work more on.
• 18:37
  But yeah, we use the writer a whole lot.
• 18:40
  Like I said, for me, I feel like I want them to think about what they're writing,
• 18:46
  how to, you know, set up the synthesis, where the comma goes,
• 18:49
  where's the period, like all those things that they really need to work on.
• 18:54
  And I know a lot of kids nowadays don't really like to write whether they're excited
• 18:59
  or blind. You know, they're like, why?
• 19:01
  Why do I do that? It's like, you still need to learn how to write.
• 19:04
  So but yeah, I primarily use the Perkins Braille writer,
• 19:10
  but I do have some students that have the braille display,
• 19:12
  but those are mostly high school students who have the pro display.
• 19:16
  Donna J. Jodhan: What about the good old stylus?
• 19:18
  And guide? Is that still around?
• 19:22
  Veronica Puente: You know, I don't. I think it is, but I don't think a lot of people use it that
• 19:26
  much. I, I don't I seen it and I think I was introduced to it when I was younger before.
• 19:33
  You know, when I was in school or whatever, but I don't think people use it that much. At
• 19:36
  least not that I know of, I know I don't.
• 19:39
  Donna J. Jodhan: Okay. I understand that you coordinate the Eastern North Carolina regional Braille
• 19:49
  challenge. What goes into staging that event and why is a little healthy
• 19:58
  competition so powerful for young Braille readers?
• 20:06
  Veronica Puente: So for me, I've been helping out with the challenge for,
• 20:10
  I don't know, three or 4 or 5 years as a volunteer.
• 20:13
  But really, when I stepped into this new role as a teacher,
• 20:17
  I've been organizing and more.
• 20:20
  We do it with library for the blind here in Raleigh.
• 20:24
  Talking books. So I don't organize, like, the whole thing,
• 20:29
  But I do organize a lot of like, the kids in my school and,
• 20:34
  you know, getting the writers together. So it's it's a lot of work.
• 20:38
  I would say it's a whole lot of work.
• 20:41
  But for me personally, I think the most important part of the
• 20:46
  challenge, I mean, it is that I want my students to do well.
• 20:49
  I want them to try. I don't want them just to sit there and don't try their best.
• 20:53
  But for me, the most important thing is that I'm exposing my kids to Braille literacy,
• 20:59
  and they are getting to meet other kids in the community that maybe they don't know of.
• 21:05
  So it's to me, it's powerful because it's like,
• 21:08
  you know, they don't. You typically see other competitions,
• 21:11
  but this competition is unique for those kids who are blind.
• 21:15
  You know, so being able to say, hey, you know,
• 21:18
  you can do this and you can probably, you know,
• 21:20
  go to nationals and get prepared for that.
• 21:22
  You know, that's like a pretty awesome thing that not all the kids who are blind and
• 21:27
  visually impaired have that opportunity. So when I look at the broad challenge,
• 21:31
  I see it as like, yes, I want you to work and I want you to do your
• 21:36
  best. But more than that, I want you to see other people who are in the
• 21:41
  same page where you are.
• 21:43
  And I want you to be encouraged by knowing that it's not just you.
• 21:47
  I know you know the school for the blind. We have,
• 21:50
  of course, you know, every other kid has a visual impairment or all the kids have visual
• 21:54
  impairments, but some seen more than others.
• 21:57
  So for me, it's important for them to meet other kids in the community.
• 22:00
  And then we get volunteers sometimes who are visually impaired themselves.
• 22:04
  So they kind of do get to see other role models.
• 22:07
  So it's a really cool thing because it's it is,
• 22:10
  you know, competing academically, but also having the opportunity to meet other
• 22:15
  kids that they might have not able to meet otherwise without having that opportunity to
• 22:20
  go.
• 22:21
  Donna J. Jodhan: How long does this competition last like?
• 22:24
  Is it over a few days or.
• 22:26
  Veronica Puente: It's generally a day. So it's usually in the morning.
• 22:30
  So they have the testing in the morning, usually for like like 9 a.m.
• 22:34
  to like 12. So but they're very they're very the tests are pretty hardcore I would say
• 22:42
  because you know, they get like 25 minutes to do a session.
• 22:46
  So it's like 25 minutes to do spelling and 25 minutes to do reading,
• 22:50
  and then 25 minutes to do the graphics, which the graphics are like for the older
• 22:55
  kiddos. So they divide them into like, I think it's like four,
• 22:59
  4 or 5 different groups.
• 23:00
  So they all have different levels.
• 23:02
  So they're pretty quick tests.
• 23:03
  So it's like, okay, here's your timer.
• 23:06
  You want to do this and then you finish.
• 23:07
  And then in the afternoons we usually have like activities for the kids.
• 23:12
  So like we have last year the science the science museum came over and show us some
• 23:20
  different, like astronauts stuff like rockets and different things like that.
• 23:25
  So we also have a meeting for the parents.
• 23:27
  So when they come in in the mornings and their kids are testing,
• 23:30
  the parents meet with other people to learn about,
• 23:35
  you know, IP. So to learn about advocacy and things like that.
• 23:38
  So we it's, you know, it's a program for the kids,
• 23:41
  but it also benefits the parents or any guardian or family member who comes and get
• 23:47
  to sit in that in the morning in that panel where they get to know different information
• 23:51
  and different resources.
• 23:52
  So it's a pretty it's that's why it takes a lot of work because it's like a lot of
• 23:56
  different pieces. But it's pretty awesome.
• 23:59
  Donna J. Jodhan: Now it's held every year right.
• 24:01
  Veronica Puente: Yes. Yeah. It's typically I think it's like from it's open from January through like
• 24:06
  March. So I mean we just usually pick a day for the eastern one.
• 24:10
  And usually the western part of the state will pick like,
• 24:14
  you know, another day like in February or March.
• 24:17
  So it goes from, you know, every single day in the United States.
• 24:20
  But they pick and I think it's other countries too. But they everybody has like
• 24:23
  this period for like three months where they can pick a day and then they will do that,
• 24:29
  choose that day to do their challenge and that region.
• 24:33
  Donna J. Jodhan: So this goes like it. Does it go national?
• 24:37
  Veronica Puente: Yes, yes. So once the students do their tests,
• 24:42
  they send it to the Braille Institute.
• 24:45
  And the Braille Institute is in Los Angeles, I believe.
• 24:48
  So they will send the the scores to them and then the institute will figure out,
• 24:54
  you know, who won first and second place in the category for the whole country.
• 24:58
  And I think other countries as well.
• 25:01
  And then those kids will get code for nationals.
• 25:04
  And nationals typically happen sometime in the middle of June.
• 25:08
  So yeah. And I think if they go to nationals,
• 25:11
  they can even go to like an international competition.
• 25:13
  I'm not quite sure, to be honest.
• 25:15
  But yeah, it has different levels, like stay local level and then go into
• 25:20
  nationals.
• 25:22
  Donna J. Jodhan: Wow.
• 25:23
  Veronica Puente: Yes.
• 25:23
  Donna J. Jodhan: Sounds really exciting.
• 25:25
  Veronica Puente: Yeah, it's a pretty big deal.
• 25:27
  That's why it takes a lot of work and a lot of collaboration,
• 25:30
  that's for sure.
• 25:32
  Donna J. Jodhan: Is it like, what are the age groups that it's open to,
• 25:35
  like, as young as how old?
• 25:38
  Veronica Puente: As old? Is this young as, like, elementary.
• 25:41
  So that's the elementary age all the way to high school.
• 25:47
  Donna J. Jodhan: Okay.
• 25:48
  Veronica Puente: Okay. Yeah. So.
• 25:50
  Donna J. Jodhan: Wow.
• 25:51
  Veronica Puente: Yes. It's a lot of fun, too, but it could be a little bit intense.
• 25:55
  Donna J. Jodhan: Yeah, I bet, and I bet the kids get all excited about it,
• 25:58
  too.
• 25:59
  Veronica Puente: They do? They're they're very excited about about participating in,
• 26:03
  like I said, we know they get excited.
• 26:05
  They do their tests in the morning, and then they get to have fun in the
• 26:07
  afternoon, which, you know, they're always like that.
• 26:11
  Donna J. Jodhan: Now during during your undergraduate years you crowdfunded an entire semester In
• 26:21
  Italy with your guide dog, Red.
• 26:25
  Did you name him after Fred? Flintstones.
• 26:29
  Sorry.
• 26:30
  Veronica Puente: What? No.
• 26:31
  Donna J. Jodhan: What did traveling abroad teach you about cultural attitudes toward blindness?
• 26:40
  And how has that shaped your teaching philosophy back home?
• 26:49
  Veronica Puente: So when I did my study abroad it was for a whole summer program,
• 26:54
  and I went to Italy, which was amazing.
• 26:58
  The people were very friendly.
• 27:00
  But I will say getting there was a challenge.
• 27:04
  Because I was taking my service dog, and I, I think people in Italy were like,
• 27:11
  they have dogs, but they're like tiny dogs.
• 27:13
  And my guide dog was like £75.
• 27:17
  So, yeah, a lot of the.
• 27:20
  Because, you know, Italy is very historical.
• 27:22
  So a lot of the public places I realized were not accessible.
• 27:27
  You know, like the elevators were too small.
• 27:30
  Stairs were very narrow.
• 27:33
  Like, it was just it's.
• 27:37
  Italy is a beautiful country, but I feel like it has a lot of work to do as
• 27:41
  far as, like, making things accessible for people who are,
• 27:45
  you know, disabled. And of course, you know,
• 27:48
  this is just my own personal opinion, but like,
• 27:51
  I remember walking in the streets and there will be cars parked in the sidewalk,
• 27:55
  and I was like, why are you doing that?
• 27:56
  You know, like, I'm trying.
• 27:58
  So I will have to go off the sidewalk and try to go around the car because people will just
• 28:02
  park anywhere. And so I don't know entirely the,
• 28:09
  you know, educational standards for Italy, for people who are blind or visually
• 28:15
  impaired. But it's my understanding that is not the best.
• 28:20
  And like I said, people were very friendly.
• 28:23
  But I noticed that a lot of people didn't understand why I have the dog.
• 28:28
  Or either they were like, oh, the dog is too big.
• 28:32
  But it was honestly mostly adults.
• 28:35
  Like, the kids love my guide dog.
• 28:37
  They were like an odd because he was beautiful and he was tall and he was big,
• 28:43
  and it was just adorable because I remember at one point,
• 28:45
  I think we were in Sorento and we had gone out to eat.
• 28:49
  And, you know, Fred was like with me and I had a line of like little boys who were just
• 28:54
  standing there looking at my dog like, oh my God,
• 28:56
  he's amazing. I was like, what?
• 28:59
  So it was adorable to see that.
• 29:01
  But like, the the most issues I had getting around with the service dog was really the
• 29:08
  adults, which also happens a lot in the States.
• 29:11
  So I don't know that that's like an international thing. I think that's just
• 29:15
  adult superior, like not not understanding what the dog does and doesn't do.
• 29:22
  But you know, I feel like going to Italy really opened my mind to like at that point I
• 29:28
  have been blind for like, oh God, I don't know,
• 29:31
  maybe. Six, seven years.
• 29:35
  And I had gone initially to adjustment training for blindness here in North
• 29:41
  Carolina. But going to Italy made me realize that I wasn't as prepared as I thought I was.
• 29:48
  So I kind of had to reframe my mindset.
• 29:51
  And and then I decided to go to the Louisiana Center for the blind after I graduated from
• 29:57
  my undergrad with my undergrad degree.
• 30:00
  So the Luciana Center for the blind is affiliated with the National Federation of
• 30:05
  the blind, and they do training, and it's extremely intense.
• 30:10
  So it's a lot of work and it's more hands on,
• 30:14
  And they don't. They had higher expectations.
• 30:19
  I think that's what it is.
• 30:20
  So it really allowed me to see, like, hey, if you're going to go travel
• 30:25
  abroad, that doesn't mean you don't need to ask for help.
• 30:28
  Or, you know, you might be confused with where you're going, but you need to have
• 30:32
  better skills to feel more comfortable with who you are.
• 30:35
  And I feel like going to Italy, I realized that I wasn't as comfortable as I
• 30:39
  thought I was with, with visual impairments and being blind.
• 30:44
  So that's why I decided, you know, after I graduate,
• 30:47
  I'm going to go to the Louisiana Center for the blind and learn those skills that I don't
• 30:52
  have. And I think a lot of it was I was capable,
• 30:55
  but I didn't have the confidence to just do what I needed to do and ask for the help I
• 31:02
  needed at that time. Like I was too conscious of my disability,
• 31:06
  if that makes sense. So you know, for me, learning that was really hard,
• 31:14
  but it was also very insightful because I like okay,
• 31:18
  now knowing what I know I need to, what am I going to do about it?
• 31:22
  So it was kind of like that moment in my life. I was like, okay, Veronica,
• 31:25
  you know, you struggle.
• 31:27
  What are you going to do? Are you going to ignore it or are you going to do something
• 31:30
  about that? And that's what I did, something about it.
• 31:34
  And it was a very difficult training, but it was also amazing.
• 31:40
  So I was really grateful to do that.
• 31:42
  And so now when my students ask me, you know,
• 31:44
  going overseas and it's like, make sure you ready you know,
• 31:49
  make sure you are able to explain your disability and say,
• 31:54
  this is what I need. This is what I don't need.
• 31:57
  You know, don't be afraid of asking for help when you need to ask.
• 32:00
  But, you know, be smart about it.
• 32:02
  Like, you know, you don't want to ask.
• 32:04
  You know, somebody if you don't feel comfortable.
• 32:08
  Because obviously, if you feel some type of way,
• 32:10
  then there's probably something They are.
• 32:12
  So it really helped me, you know, see where I was and kind of
• 32:18
  reevaluate where I wanted to go.
• 32:21
  Donna J. Jodhan: How long did Fred live for?
• 32:23
  Veronica Puente: Oh, God. Fred was pretty whole when he passed on.
• 32:27
  He lived until. 14.
• 32:33
  Donna J. Jodhan: Whoa.
• 32:34
  Veronica Puente: Yeah. Yeah. So he was pretty elderly when he passed on,
• 32:38
  so I retired him. Because that was another thing where Fred and I went to Italy.
• 32:43
  He was good, but I think it took a lot on him.
• 32:47
  Because we went in the summertime and it was extremely crowded.
• 32:51
  So I think for him it was like a lot like all the people in the city.
• 32:55
  And it was just it was just a lot for him.
• 32:58
  So when we came back, we still worked together for like maybe a
• 33:02
  couple of years, but I could tell he was getting to the point where he was like,
• 33:05
  okay, I'm done. Like, this is not cool.
• 33:08
  So when I went to Louisiana to do training.
• 33:12
  I decided to retire him then, because I could tell he was going to be more
• 33:17
  happy just being a pet and not, you know, being wandering around.
• 33:22
  And he did. He he lived for another, like, you know,
• 33:26
  six years or so after that.
• 33:28
  And he had a really good life.
• 33:30
  So he was an amazing dog.
• 33:32
  He really was. He always went different places,
• 33:36
  but I could tell that, you know, going to Italy was a lot for him.
• 33:40
  Donna J. Jodhan: Was that your first dog?
• 33:42
  Veronica Puente: Yes. He was.
• 33:44
  Donna J. Jodhan: What kind of dog was he?
• 33:46
  Veronica Puente: He is he was a black lab.
• 33:48
  Donna J. Jodhan: Oh, gosh.
• 33:49
  Veronica Puente: Yes. Yeah.
• 33:52
  Donna J. Jodhan: So that you rely on Braille every day for things as mundane as grocery lists and
• 34:02
  as joyful as leisure reading.
• 34:06
  Could you share a couple of concrete strategies that parents can use Braille to
• 34:15
  weave. That parents can use to weave Braille naturally into family life.
• 34:23
  Veronica Puente: Yeah. So I think having games in the house.
• 34:27
  So, you know, like, now there's a lot of accessible games out there. Like, I think
• 34:30
  target is carrying a Uno cards umbrella.
• 34:34
  You know, having games that are made accessible to Braille,
• 34:37
  that's a really good opportunity because it has the pro and the print so the kids can
• 34:40
  play along with family.
• 34:43
  I think having Braille around the house, like maybe labeling like the milk or
• 34:48
  something that labels the cereal umbrella.
• 34:50
  So you could see is that because I think you know,
• 34:54
  the sighted kids, they just look around, right?
• 34:57
  And they see the print everywhere so they can associate,
• 35:00
  okay, that's Walmart or that is, you know, means drier or whatever,
• 35:05
  but a blind kiddo might not.
• 35:07
  You have to be very intentional how you set things up.
• 35:11
  So setting things up in the house as simple as like dryer or putting a label for like,
• 35:17
  you know, microwave or you know, what I think is the coolest thing is to do
• 35:23
  bedtime reading. You know, having a book that is print in Braille.
• 35:29
  And getting those books and reading it to your kids so they can follow along with you
• 35:33
  can read the print and they can follow along by looking at the Braille.
• 35:37
  And even if they're tiny, they can't really read the words like,
• 35:40
  that's not the point. The point is that you exposing the kids to the Braille as learned
• 35:45
  as early as possible, so it can be a literacy enriched environment.
• 35:51
  And that means having the Braille and having a lot of print.
• 35:55
  So, you know, I think a lot of times parents,
• 35:58
  you know, I always get this, which is like, I find it like I,
• 36:02
  I understand it, but, you know, I had to talk to the parents a lot
• 36:05
  because they're like. Well, we. Can't practice with her because we can't
• 36:08
  read Braille and I like, but that's not the point. You can get the
• 36:11
  same copy of the bird book and print, and you can read along with your with your
• 36:16
  kid and your kid is reading.
• 36:18
  And of course, if they get stuck in something umbrella,
• 36:21
  you know, you can tell them what the word is.
• 36:23
  And it doesn't have to be perfect, but it has to be done.
• 36:27
  You know, it has to be intentional, and it has to be part of that environment of
• 36:32
  the house, like it needs to be.
• 36:34
  Where like you walk in and you see Braille, not a lot,
• 36:39
  but like everywhere, if that makes sense. You know, Braille there and Braille over there,
• 36:43
  and there's like little pieces of Braille here and there.
• 36:46
  And the kids grow to like expect that.
• 36:50
  And when they expect that, then they're for them.
• 36:52
  It's fun. And it's not like, oh, this is like some job I have to do,
• 36:58
  you know, housework I have to do.
• 37:00
  No, like, you make it fun with your kids and you,
• 37:05
  you know, hopefully also help.
• 37:06
  If you have other kids, you can help the other kids as well to,
• 37:10
  you know, learn what is Braille.
• 37:13
  And have them getting used to that.
• 37:17
  From a young age, like the earlier you can start,
• 37:20
  the better.
• 37:22
  Donna J. Jodhan: You think parents, you know, are they happy to learn Braille along with
• 37:26
  their kids?
• 37:29
  Veronica Puente: I think sometimes parents are just intimidated by the whole thing of learning
• 37:33
  Braille. Like they think it's too much. And this is not just the parents.
• 37:37
  Like, it's, you know, sighted people that I have worked with
• 37:40
  before. It's like, you know, I often get people like they say,
• 37:44
  oh, it's a whole new language.
• 37:45
  And it's like, no, it's not, it's, it's a, it's a code.
• 37:49
  It's a reading code. So it's not like you're not learning the rules of that language.
• 37:55
  Like you're not conjugating verbs like, you know.
• 37:58
  It's still there's still English rules that go along with the Braille.
• 38:03
  So I think a lot of times parents just get intimidated by like,
• 38:07
  oh my God, how do I learn that, you know?
• 38:09
  How can I how can I do that with my kid?
• 38:12
  I do think some parents are excited, but, you know,
• 38:15
  sometimes it is the the unknown, right?
• 38:18
  That's what really gets them. Like the how do I do this?
• 38:21
  How do I access this? Like I want my kid to develop like their siblings if they have,
• 38:28
  you know, siblings or like a regular child or age,
• 38:31
  but they just don't know what's possible.
• 38:34
  So what I learned from my kids is that a lot of the times,
• 38:38
  the parents don't know, and they're intimidated and they're afraid,
• 38:42
  and so they let it. They will leave that to us teachers to do that job for them,
• 38:47
  which is fine. But teachers can only do so much.
• 38:50
  Right? So like, even if I try to get my kid to Braille for Monday to Friday,
• 38:55
  they go home on the weekends and if they don't use that,
• 38:58
  then it's really not part of who they are.
• 39:01
  And kids are really smart.
• 39:02
  Like they learn to separate that.
• 39:04
  They learn to separate and associate.
• 39:06
  Like, oh, Braille is part of schoolwork.
• 39:09
  And not like Braille is part of everyday, you know,
• 39:12
  from the like you're saying from the small things of like,
• 39:15
  oh, I'm gonna label the spices and I'm going to be able to read it and help my parents
• 39:19
  cook. That's a really easy activity you can do.
• 39:22
  You know, you can label the spices and you're like, okay, let's make a cake or something
• 39:26
  like, can you find the cinnamon?
• 39:28
  You know, like there's a lot of ways the parents can do this,
• 39:32
  but I think a lot of the times they just don't know or they intimidate it and they
• 39:36
  find it way to they think it's too much, but it's really not like you just have to
• 39:41
  scale it and take it one, one step at a time,
• 39:44
  and maybe just find that one activity you would like with your kids to do.
• 39:48
  Maybe it's playing the Uno or doing a game night or,
• 39:52
  you know, helping them, helping them help you measure,
• 39:56
  you know, things in the kitchen or help you find spices like make it.
• 40:01
  Just pick one thing you want to do and stick with that until you can add something else.
• 40:06
  Don't try to do everything at one time, but I definitely think parents,
• 40:09
  it's not that they don't want to. Obviously they want what's best for the kids. They just
• 40:13
  don't know how to go about it.
• 40:16
  Donna J. Jodhan: I think we both cared deeply about the expanded core curriculum.
• 40:24
  Where do you see the biggest gaps in IC delivery across the United States,
• 40:34
  and how are you addressing those gaps in your own practice?
• 40:42
  Veronica Puente: So I think, you know, for the IC, it's funny because,
• 40:46
  you know, growing up, I absolutely know what was that until I went
• 40:49
  into my master's program.
• 40:51
  So I think that's one of the things that is like,
• 40:54
  well, I feel like a kid should be part of the process,
• 40:58
  right? Like this is their education so they can actually know what the heck that is.
• 41:02
  And what are the nine the different nine areas of the IC.
• 41:05
  Right. Yeah. So I feel like from what I can see,
• 41:09
  we focus a whole lot in assistive technology,
• 41:12
  which is great. Like we need it, right?
• 41:14
  I mean, I'm, you know, I use a computer with the screen reader with
• 41:17
  jaws. I use the pearl display.
• 41:19
  I use the iPad with the voiceover.
• 41:21
  I use my phone with the voiceover.
• 41:22
  So all those things are great.
• 41:24
  But you know, we don't focus on braille literacy or compensatory access.
• 41:31
  That's really what it's called. And and we don't really focus as much.
• 41:36
  And self-determination.
• 41:39
  I feel like those are the things, like we always talk about,
• 41:42
  oh, independent living skills, let's do the cooking or let's do the grocery
• 41:46
  shopping. And it's like, okay, that's great.
• 41:48
  But we don't focus on the literacy part of it.
• 41:51
  So like the literacy part is like, how do you articulate yourself and write in
• 41:56
  an email. How do you write a simple grocery list and Braille?
• 42:01
  Like, how do you take down a phone number for.
• 42:05
  Maybe you want to call somebody?
• 42:08
  You know, those little things that are really not that difficult because you can.
• 42:12
  When it comes to the standard curriculum, you can like combine like two different
• 42:17
  sections in one lesson, like two different areas of that.
• 42:20
  You know, you can do the independent living skill lesson where you have Braille and you
• 42:24
  have to do the recipe, and that will be combining those two.
• 42:28
  Right. You can have the self-determination.
• 42:32
  It's like, okay, which what kind of book would you like to read?
• 42:35
  Oh, let's do an advocacy lesson where you have to explain to me what your vision is.
• 42:41
  So I feel like from what I've seen, we don't focus in the literacy enough.
• 42:46
  And that means, you know, like I said, the reading,
• 42:48
  the writing, the math because there is a math component where when you write it in Braille
• 42:54
  and we tell the kids, yeah, this is your education.
• 42:58
  But when it comes down to it, how much do we allow them to understand where
• 43:03
  they're going and how they can get there?
• 43:06
  Right? Like, because, I mean, I have students before where they're
• 43:10
  like, oh, I want to do engineering.
• 43:11
  And then it's like, I have them do like a research paper where they have to tell me
• 43:18
  what type of skills they need for that job.
• 43:20
  And then they come back and it's like, oh, it's Veronica,
• 43:22
  I don't like math. And I'm like, well, maybe engineering is nothing.
• 43:26
  You know, maybe, maybe engineering is not the best path.
• 43:30
  So I don't tell my students, you can't do this.
• 43:33
  But I'm like, okay, let's like, take a moment and see what do you need to get
• 43:38
  there? And if you are willing to put in the work to become the engineer or the doctor or
• 43:43
  the astronaut or, you know, whatever, then that's wonderful.
• 43:48
  But if you come in research and you know you don't have the desire to get better in the
• 43:54
  math or get better and whatever that is, then perhaps you shouldn't be aiming for that
• 44:00
  job, you know? So trying to get the opportunity to say,
• 44:04
  okay, let's let's talk about what your goals will be.
• 44:07
  What are you. Where did you see yourselves?
• 44:09
  You know, like because then the the sec they the way we should teach them,
• 44:16
  I think. And this might be my personal opinion.
• 44:19
  Like we have to be very intentional, but we had to kind of start with the end goal
• 44:24
  in mind. And by that, I mean you kind of have to start with like,
• 44:28
  okay, this student would like to be this, this is this career path.
• 44:32
  Let's expose the student to what would that look like every day,
• 44:36
  having those mentors and maybe do some job shadowing and trying to figure out,
• 44:42
  is this what you really want to do?
• 44:43
  And if it is, then that's wonderful.
• 44:45
  We can work towards that.
• 44:46
  But you know, before you get there you have to do x,
• 44:49
  Y and Z, right? So it's not like I'm going to get up one morning and decide to run a
• 44:54
  marathon like I have to, you know, run first and do A5K or take K or
• 44:59
  what have you. So I think a lot of times we talk about success,
• 45:04
  but what does that look like.
• 45:05
  Because, you know, everybody has their own individual potential and everybody has their
• 45:09
  own journey. So we have to, you know, step back a little bit and realize
• 45:16
  that we are educators here to give the kids the tools to reach that goal.
• 45:20
  I'm not here to, you know, make you my project or my independence
• 45:28
  independent personal project where I can help you get to where I want you to get this is
• 45:33
  your education, your job.
• 45:35
  Like, you know, I usually tell my students that,
• 45:37
  like Miss Veronica, what, can you do this like I yeah.
• 45:40
  Because, you know, I really graduated high school. Like, I don't need to go through the
• 45:43
  math. This is your job.
• 45:45
  I'm here to support you and give you the the tools you need.
• 45:49
  But I'm not here to do your quadratic equation like I like.
• 45:54
  I've already been through this, you know.
• 45:56
  So I guess I have high expectations for my kids,
• 46:00
  and I, I wanted to give them the choices because it's really about that,
• 46:05
  right? Like, it's about, you know, self-advocacy,
• 46:08
  like self-determination.
• 46:10
  Where do you want to be? This is this is not my life.
• 46:12
  This is your life. This is you are the one who's going to graduate and go out there and
• 46:16
  try to get a job. You are the one who's going to have to face those situations where people
• 46:22
  might or might not discriminate against you because you're blind.
• 46:24
  So how would you approach that?
• 46:26
  How can you tell your boss this is how much I can or can't see?
• 46:30
  This is the type of disability I have.
• 46:33
  This is the accommodations I need.
• 46:35
  You need to know that I don't.
• 46:40
  Donna J. Jodhan: Nice.
• 46:40
  Veronica Puente: Yeah.
• 46:42
  Donna J. Jodhan: So many educators struggle to motivate sighted peers to learn Braille basics.
• 46:52
  How do you foster an inclusive culture among colleagues so that tactile literacy
• 47:02
  becomes everyone's responsibility, not just the TV's?
• 47:15
  Veronica Puente: So this is something that I'm still working with right now.
• 47:19
  Is this a process? I'm grateful that I have a new principal who started this past year,
• 47:25
  so. And I think he has that by background.
• 47:29
  He's not visually impaired himself, but he has,
• 47:31
  you know, the TV, the orientation of ability.
• 47:33
  So he understands that this is like a legitimate concern that,
• 47:38
  you know, sighted people. And I think it's like like I mentioned before. Right. Like
• 47:41
  they intimidated by learning Braille.
• 47:44
  They think it's too hard, too difficult.
• 47:47
  It takes too much. So we are hoping to be able to start,
• 47:52
  like, lessons, maybe on Fridays or, you know,
• 47:56
  maybe lunchtime on Wednesdays or something like that, where I can have, like, kind of
• 47:59
  like open hours where some of my coworkers can come in and I can teach them,
• 48:04
  hey, this is the basis of like, let's start with the alphabet and then go
• 48:08
  from there. Because it is a concern that I think sometimes people think,
• 48:13
  well, I'm just going to give you the Braille display and you're going to read it. And it's
• 48:16
  like, that's not how it works. Because with the display,
• 48:19
  the students can only see one line at a time,
• 48:21
  sometimes not even one line.
• 48:23
  So they're tracking skills, doesn't go, doesn't get better.
• 48:27
  And sometimes, you know, when they're looking at the display,
• 48:30
  they don't see that punctuation.
• 48:32
  And the answer is an exclamation mark.
• 48:34
  Or if it's a period or if it's a question mark and they don't read it,
• 48:38
  they don't read properly. So their reading fluency goes out the window and it's just not
• 48:43
  insisted. And it's like, how do you help the kid get through that,
• 48:47
  so I think. You know, my new principal and I,
• 48:51
  we are hoping to start along with some other coworkers who are advice as well.
• 48:56
  Start, you know, that way we can do that.
• 48:58
  You know, maybe every other Friday or every Friday where we can say,
• 49:01
  hey, this is open hours.
• 49:04
  Come in and let's learn about Braille.
• 49:05
  Let's start from the beginning.
• 49:08
  Let's teach you the basics.
• 49:12
  But let's make it in a way that is not so challenging.
• 49:15
  And if it is challenging, then tell me why.
• 49:18
  Like, where do you struggle?
• 49:19
  Like, why do you not think this is important?
• 49:22
  And I think sometimes we have to have these conversations, right? That people are
• 49:26
  intimidated to have it.
• 49:27
  And sometimes it's like you don't want to learn Braille. You think it's too much y.
• 49:31
  Like, honestly, honestly, tell me, what is the issue like?
• 49:36
  Because, you know, I can only teach people so much,
• 49:39
  but if I can't change the mindset, which I might not be able to,
• 49:43
  you know, in the sense that I can, you know,
• 49:45
  get in to understand the barrel is important and it's not dying because,
• 49:50
  I mean, that's ridiculous, right? Like, that's like saying literacy is
• 49:53
  dying. Then if I can't change that mindset or get into reframe that way of thinking,
• 50:02
  then there's not much I can do beyond just teaching the protocol.
• 50:05
  Right. And in the school, maybe I can teach in the basics.
• 50:08
  But I think when you have a teacher who really sees for what it is and like how
• 50:14
  important it is, then they will integrate it more to their classes.
• 50:18
  But, you know, it's a tricky situation because if it's like,
• 50:22
  I'm going to teach you the basics and you have to come because I said so,
• 50:25
  then it's kind of like, oh, well, I'm just going to learn this
• 50:29
  because I have to I'm going to just check that box,
• 50:31
  if you will. I still supposed to then really understand.
• 50:35
  No, this is not about Miss Veronica trying to,
• 50:37
  like, push you, but this is about your students and our students.
• 50:42
  You know, this is not about you supporting me.
• 50:45
  This is about you supporting your kids.
• 50:48
  It's just about the kids.
• 50:49
  Period. So it's it's like I said, something I'm still working towards,
• 50:54
  and I'm still trying to figure out how to do that,
• 50:56
  because I do think a lot of people who have some vision think it's too difficult,
• 51:02
  it's too hard, it's too much, and they can never learn it.
• 51:06
  But I, I really think it's because I know this is going to sound funny,
• 51:10
  but I think sometimes sighted people are too sighted.
• 51:13
  You know, it's kind of like they have to see it.
• 51:16
  Otherwise there's no way.
• 51:17
  And it's like, no, you don't, you don't have to see it like this is if you
• 51:22
  were blind, you would be doing this this way.
• 51:25
  Like, we're not amazing.
• 51:26
  Like, I'm not I don't hear better than you do because I'm blind.
• 51:31
  I'm just more aware of what's around me because obviously I can't see.
• 51:34
  So I had learned to use those skills or those senses you would to if you would not rely on
• 51:42
  the site, but you do so.
• 51:45
  You know, they just think like, oh, you are the most amazing person I like
• 51:49
  and really not like. I still struggle every morning to get up like everybody else.
• 51:54
  Like I am not a morning person, so I am not amazing.
• 51:58
  Like I need coffee every day or otherwise it will be bad.
• 52:03
  Donna J. Jodhan: Now your mentors describe you as remarkable, tenacious and diligent.
• 52:12
  Who mentored you earlier on and what lessons from them do you now consciously pass along
• 52:22
  to your own students?
• 52:26
  Veronica Puente: So I think I have have a lot of mentors here and there in my life.
• 52:33
  It will be a lot, you know, to name.
• 52:36
  But the two that come in mind are my mom and Mr.
• 52:41
  James Benton. So, Mr. James Benton.
• 52:44
  He passed away in 2017.
• 52:47
  He was an amazing person.
• 52:49
  Like he worked at the school for the blind here in Raleigh.
• 52:52
  He worked for the Division of Services for the blind.
• 52:54
  He was like the, I think like the transition coordinator.
• 52:58
  So he was working with the younger kids, making sure that when they,
• 53:02
  you know, graduated high school, they were going to a job or to university,
• 53:06
  whatever it is that they needed to be going.
• 53:08
  And he was an amazing person because, you know,
• 53:12
  he would make things happen.
• 53:13
  And I like I like that because, you know, like I tell my students,
• 53:18
  sometimes we're not going to be invited to that table.
• 53:21
  And you don't need to just bring a chair and make a space,
• 53:24
  you know, like sometimes you have to you have to push things to make things happen.
• 53:32
  Or sometimes you have to learn when to walk away because people aren't serving you.
• 53:37
  You know, people are going to not change their mindset.
• 53:40
  And then it's like, what are you going to do about it?
• 53:43
  Are you just going to sit here and cry about it?
• 53:45
  Or are you going to do something to change that? And you might not be able to change the
• 53:48
  situation then, but you can work towards having a different outcome.
• 53:54
  And I think that's what Mr.
• 53:55
  Benton taught me. You know, he was the kind of person who will be like,
• 53:59
  well, we're going to do this and we're going to do this because,
• 54:03
  oh, if we are doing this, then why are we not doing that?
• 54:06
  You know, that sort of thing?
• 54:08
  He was totally blind. He always stood up for his rights as well.
• 54:12
  You know, he was the kind of person who was like, well, this is not accessible.
• 54:15
  So what are you going to do about it? Like, you know,
• 54:18
  he he wasn't afraid of speaking out and calling people out when they needed to be
• 54:22
  called out. And that's what I teach my kids is like,
• 54:27
  look, sometimes you're going to have to be the unconscious person who says,
• 54:31
  hey, enough. Enough of this, enough of that.
• 54:35
  I'm not here to be your charity project.
• 54:39
  Like I'm here to get an education just like everybody else.
• 54:43
  And this is my dignity as a person who happens to be blind.
• 54:48
  I should have the same access like everybody else.
• 54:51
  So you know, when I think about what I want to do and when I think about,
• 54:56
  you know, when I'm having those days because I still, you know, sometimes have those days
• 55:00
  that I'm like, I can't, I can't deal with anybody today because,
• 55:03
  like, I literally just trying to throw my trash out,
• 55:05
  like I need people to start, stop me in every single corner and be like,
• 55:09
  hey, you need help? I'm like, no, not today.
• 55:11
  You know, like, sometimes those days happen.
• 55:14
  But I remember how Mr.
• 55:15
  Benton was, like, undaunted.
• 55:18
  Like he just did what he needed to do.
• 55:21
  And if it didn't work out, he'll find another way to make it work.
• 55:25
  You know, for him, it wasn't like.
• 55:27
  I mean, life was, you know, life was was what it was.
• 55:31
  And so I think for me, having him as a mentor was wonderful.
• 55:37
  And I think, you know, having my mom as a woman who,
• 55:40
  you know, moved here to the States with me, with no English.
• 55:45
  She passed away years ago as well.
• 55:47
  So, you know, she she was like a a woman who was quiet in her own way,
• 55:54
  but she was like one of those women who were had the strength to do what she needed to do
• 56:00
  for her kids. And, you know, I think a lot of times women aren't really.
• 56:06
  You know, there's sometimes there's the question of like,
• 56:09
  are you capable of doing this or doing that just because of our gender?
• 56:14
  And it's like I look up to my mom who deal with all of that,
• 56:17
  and who was a mom who had a visually impaired child like me,
• 56:21
  and she didn't know what to do, you know?
• 56:24
  And I think a lot of times, parents don't know what to do when they have
• 56:27
  a kid with a disability.
• 56:29
  So, you know, she, you know, perhaps made mistakes,
• 56:33
  but, you know, we all do.
• 56:35
  And I think at the end of the day, she did what she could with what she had at
• 56:40
  that time. And so you know, I look up to her because she went through so
• 56:46
  much to be here and to do what she needed to do for her kids.
• 56:52
  But it was in such a way that she wasn't, you know,
• 56:55
  she never gave up to do that.
• 56:57
  So I think for me, you know, having her and having her,
• 57:00
  Mr. Benton is like, I combined the two.
• 57:03
  You know, I was like, okay, I'm going to be determined and what I
• 57:06
  need to get done. But I'm also going to be, you know,
• 57:09
  that kind of person like Mr.
• 57:10
  Benton, who was not quiet when he needed to be.
• 57:14
  So it's like it's a it's I feel like it's a good combination of both.
• 57:18
  You know.
• 57:22
  Donna J. Jodhan: We're almost out of time.
• 57:24
  And we're off to the final question.
• 57:27
  So finally, Veronica, if you had five minutes alone Along with
• 57:33
  every educational minister in the world.
• 57:38
  What single policy change would you champion?
• 57:43
  Champion first to accelerate equitable literacy for blind learners.
• 57:54
  Veronica Puente: So I think what I would talk or tell people, you know,
• 57:59
  educators, parents, whoever's, you know, in a capacity working with somebody
• 58:04
  who's blind, visually impaired.
• 58:07
  Maybe it's not so much of a mean policy, but more like a philosophy of,
• 58:12
  like expectations, like higher expectations, but having respect.
• 58:20
  So I think it's, you know, being able to come in the door and not come
• 58:26
  with concessions and assuming, you know, misconceptions and assuming like,
• 58:32
  well, this blind person can do this, all that blind person can do that.
• 58:36
  Because, you know, blindness is a spectrum.
• 58:39
  So we all different. You know, so like, for example,
• 58:42
  I have two kiddos who have the same eye condition,
• 58:44
  but they see totally different.
• 58:47
  And I think for me growing up it was really difficult because I remember sometimes I will
• 58:52
  be compared to one of my other peers and the classroom because,
• 58:58
  you know, he he was totally blind like me, but he had really good technology skills,
• 59:02
  and I didn't and, you know, it would really get me down when I was
• 59:07
  compared, like, well, he's doing that.
• 59:09
  What can you do that? You know, that sort of thing.
• 59:12
  And, you know, I had to learn English when I moved here to this day.
• 59:15
  So I was really struggling with that insecurity.
• 59:18
  So I think, you know, if I could give any lesson to an educator or
• 59:24
  a parent, it's like, don't think that every blind person is the same because we are all
• 59:29
  different. So I would say come with an open mindset and willingness to learn from that
• 59:37
  person because, you know, maybe you went and got your master's and you
• 59:41
  got a PhD and you're all educated and you learn everything that's learning about
• 59:45
  blindness. But at the end of the day, if you're not blind,
• 59:48
  you don't leave that reality every day like we do.
• 59:53
  You know, we know what it's like to have to accommodate things that happen without
• 1:00:03
  us expecting that, you know, the, the transportation.
• 1:00:06
  Like, well, maybe the Uber didn't pick me up because I have the guide dog,
• 1:00:10
  or I'm late for this because the transportation was late.
• 1:00:13
  Or can I go to that festival when there's no accessibility in place?
• 1:00:17
  So can I even go watch that movie of that play if there's no audio description?
• 1:00:22
  You know, those are things that we had to think about.
• 1:00:24
  And I think a lot of people don't.
• 1:00:26
  And that's just because that's not a reality every day.
• 1:00:29
  So I would say be willing to learn.
• 1:00:31
  When you meet somebody who's visually impaired,
• 1:00:33
  who's blind, or you're working with them like,
• 1:00:36
  don't, don't make it seem like, hey, well, I know everything that's to learn.
• 1:00:41
  Like, you know, today I was in a presentation earlier and one of the ladies who was
• 1:00:47
  presenting, you know, she works for an agency that works for people
• 1:00:50
  with people who are blind and visually impaired. And she said something like, oh,
• 1:00:54
  I use this app all the time because, you know,
• 1:00:57
  it reads to me and I'm a lazy, I don't want to read or something like that.
• 1:01:01
  And then she said something like, I don't need it, you know, thank God I'm not
• 1:01:05
  blind or something like that.
• 1:01:06
  And it's like it really irritated me because when you are in a position like that and you
• 1:01:12
  say things like that, it's perpetuating that idea that it's like,
• 1:01:17
  well, you're all blind, but I'm not. So therefore I'm better than you
• 1:01:20
  are, or I'm better off than you are because I can still see.
• 1:01:23
  And I'm like, what? Like, you are in a position where other people hear
• 1:01:30
  that and you are perpetuating this idea that not being able to see is awful,
• 1:01:36
  and it's like the end of the world when it's really not.
• 1:01:39
  So I would say you need to learn to have that willingness to learn and listen to us.
• 1:01:45
  You know, we are our allies.
• 1:01:47
  Don't think like another project and another charity case,
• 1:01:52
  like, work with me and work with me.
• 1:01:56
  You know, don't walk ahead of me.
• 1:02:00
  I used to say. Hey, I got you.
• 1:02:02
  Or behind me like, oh, I'm going to pick you up when you need help.
• 1:02:05
  Like, work with me side by side so we can make a better future for all of us.
• 1:02:12
  Donna J. Jodhan: And we're almost out of time.
• 1:02:15
  And I want to thank you, Veronica, for a very,
• 1:02:17
  very insightful interview.
• 1:02:19
  I mean, my goodness, I think our listeners will learn a lot.
• 1:02:24
  And I want to thank you for dropping by to be on my interview,
• 1:02:30
  and I look forward to.
• 1:02:32
  You know, probably another interview with you in the future. See how you're doing.
• 1:02:37
  Veronica Puente: Thank you so much for having me.
• 1:02:38
  I really appreciate the opportunity to be here and just,
• 1:02:42
  you know, get people to really learn more about blindness and education and what it's
• 1:02:47
  like for us to, you know, have the opportunity to be,
• 1:02:53
  you know, contribute to society and be here like everybody else's.
• 1:02:58
  Donna J. Jodhan: Thank you very much. And you have a good evening.
• 1:03:01
  Veronica Puente: You, too. Thank you.
• 1:03:03
  Donna J. Jodhan: Okay. Take care now. You too.
• 1:03:05
  Yeah.
• 1:03:05
  Veronica Puente: Bye bye.
• 1:03:05
  Donna J. Jodhan: Bye bye. Bye.
• 1:03:09
  Podcast Commentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at Donna.
• 1:03:13
  Hand at gmail.com. Until next time.