Latest / Healing Her Story with Riva Jean-Paul / Religious Trauma & the Body: Reclaiming Sensuality and Self-Trust with Wren Morrow, Boudoir Photographer

Transcript

Religious Trauma & the Body: Reclaiming Sensuality and Self-Trust with Wren Morrow, Boudoir Photographer · Healing Her Story with Riva Jean-Paul

• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: Hello everyone.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to today's episode of the Healing Heart Story podcast.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: I am just buzzing with excitement today.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_00: I've been just kind of giggling and sharing some stories and exchanges right before we hit record with today's guest.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: And like all of our guests, I feel like this guest really found their way to me in a very like serendipitous, divine way, which often happens here on the show.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: You know, in my own studies, I've been bumping up this, bumping up against this theme of religious trauma.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I've been talking to a lot of people about it.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of my clients have been sharing their experiences with it.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't know if it's something that many of us are quite aware of.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_00: So we'll definitely be touching on that today.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_00: And as I was kind of really feeling into an episode around this topic in the perfect and right timing, I had this guest introduced to me.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_00: And what I loved most too was one that they live in the Pacific Northwest, which is where I grew up.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: And this is such a beautiful and special place to my heart.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: I deeply missed it.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: I had got to get up there very soon.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's been way too long.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: And also when I went to their website and I looked at their photography, my gosh, I'm getting goosebumps just thinking about it.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: I was blown away.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: And my husband, he's into photography as well.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: And so I was like, look at these photos.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: He's like, yeah, these are amazing photos.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: So I just knew because of so many different reasons that we had to have this guest on today.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm very excited to welcome Ren to the podcast today.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_00: I'll read a little bit about Ren's bio and then I'll let them speak for themselves.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: Today's guest is Ren Morrow, an outdoor Bordeaux and uh I always struggle with Boudoir.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_00: Bourdouard.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: There we go, boudoir.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: Known for her moody edits, whimsical flair, and unflinching authenticity, Ren's work lives at the intersection of fine art, fairy tale, and embodied reclamation.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: Raised in Chatta Chattanooga Chattanooga, Chattanooga, Tennessee, often called the buckle of the Bible Belt, Wren spent her early life steeped in religious dogma and purity culture.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: After years of trying to live within those expectations, she ultimately chose to leave that world behind and began writing a very different story for herself.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_00: Her journey eventually led her to the Olympic Peninsula in Washington State, where time spent alone in nature helped her unraveling the shame she carried around her body and sensuality.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_00: What began as a personal healing journey evolved into her work as a photographer, creating outdoor bordeaux, oh my goodness, Bordeaux?
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_01: Boudoir, boudoir, boudoir.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_01: Here you go.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: That invite women and folks to reconnect with their bodies, their sensuality, and their sense of belonging in the natural world.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_00: Today her photography is not just about beautiful images.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_00: It's about reclamation, presence, and remembering that our bodies were never the problem to begin with.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_00: Ren, welcome to the show.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much for having me.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so excited to be here.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_02: That was this beautiful bio.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you for putting that together.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm glad it resonated with you.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_00: Well, Ren, we always get started with the first question, which is tell us your story.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_00: What led you from growing up in the Bible belt and working within church to the work you're doing now?
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_03: Will it all begin?
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_03: Oh man.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_03: It is funny uh to try to think where to begin.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_03: I think before the episode we were talking about what what does like religious trauma mean?
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_03: What is like the big impact of that?
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_03: And there there are so many impacts, and I am certainly not the expert on the matter.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_03: I just have my personal story, but it looked like from a very young age to completely ignore anything I thought I wanted and needed for my life, and be in a place of submitting to God, which meant just like trying to understand God's will for my life.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_03: So rather than seeing what lit me up, seeing what turned me on, seeing what sparked my curiosity, or following those little glimmers, I was in a constant state of questioning and wondering, you know, is this what God wants for me?
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_03: Is this what I'm supposed to do?
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_03: And the way that I can even like feel echoes of it still in my own body as I come to more crossroads, like this, like, am I gonna make the wrong choice?
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_03: There's like a lot of fear that comes into any sort of decision making.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_03: There's also just in general a lack of self-trust.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_03: It's entirely like whittled away, which makes sense.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_03: As an institution, I feel like a lot of religion's primary point is control.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_03: It was like trying to control masses.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_03: So making someone doubt their own personal power, their own internal compass, being in a state of question rather than pursuit, and like being kind of on your back foot of like, is this right?
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_03: makes you a lot more susceptible to being told, and this is what you need to do, and this is what you need to believe, and this is who we need to hate, and this is where you need to spend your money.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_03: So I would say that that would be the like biggest disempowering thing that is so bone deep in my body.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_03: The layer on top of that would be specifically when it came to sensuality and sexuality, the amount of expectation there was to not be a source of temptation for other people.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_03: And so not only not trusting my own gut, but also shaming my body and thinking that my body had something wrong with it, that it needed to be hidden, that it I needed to be very cautious with it, that the that the highest gift I could give a man one day would be my virginity and needing to stay in a state of purity.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_03: Then that state of purity being so like being so obsessed with that sense of purity that you're constantly also feeling like you're a bad person.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_03: The concept of sin in general is this like state of being filthy, of being wretched, of being a sinner and not able to access divinity unless you're forgiven and you're like in a state of humility.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_03: So all of these things combining really put me in a place where I just didn't, I didn't trust myself, I didn't like my body, or I had confusing, I didn't actually like dislike it.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_03: I actually had a very confusing relationship with it because as we can see from my work at this point, I'm an incredibly sexual, sensual person.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_03: I love, love it.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_03: And so I was constantly like wanting that and pursuing that, but then feeling really bad about it.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_03: And so I would make out with someone or have this, or even premarital sex, God forbid.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_03: And then then be in a total state of like, oh my gosh, I've done something so wrong.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_03: And then so then this created a relationship with my concept of like love, which is the truest form of love you can experience, is the love of God.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_03: And so then I was in basically an on and off again relationship with God, like this kind of like almost abusive relationship where I'm in a state of unity and love, and okay, we're good.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_03: And then I do something that actually feels incredibly natural, incredibly good, incredibly like not an issue.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_03: And then the moment that I'm I've climaxed, or I like get out of the moment, then I'm like, oh, shame and fear, and now I'm estranged from God, and now I have to go back and ask for repentance, and like please forgive me.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_03: And then there's like this immense.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_03: I wish I actually understood what happened chemically when this happens, because there's like this like shame, and then the reconciliation, the feeling of reconciliation and being forgiven is euphoric, like truly euphoric.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, wow.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_03: And and I feel like that has like I can look at the romance that I've had in my life and see a pattern of sinning and like estrangement, less so as an adult, but that like when I was when I was a young adult, like I cheated on every boyfriend I had.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_03: Like, and then it was like in the him forgiving me and us like being able to be together on the other side of it, that that's when I knew he really loved me.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_03: Wow.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_03: I'm like, wow, that is so flawed.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_03: That is so yeah.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_03: Like I said, I wish I actually understood like what happens chemically during that process because it does create this bonding recognition, chemical release pattern in my body that yes, so in my pursuit to be good and to be what I needed to be for like to be in the right relationship with God, I end up um getting married very young uh to a man who worked in the church.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_03: I actually start working in the church as well.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_03: I become a youth pastor.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_03: Um, it is in working for the church that something really shifted because then I got a look behind the proverbial curtain.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_03: And I saw that it is a business more than anything.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_03: I saw lots of money go missing, saw the way that it's also politics, that it is like literally being instructed by my pastor to like go, you know, kiss ass.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_03: I he didn't say that word, I don't think, but like go kiss ass to one of our primary donors, like the the this guy who would always write really big checks for the church.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_03: So just like making sure that, you know, rubbing, rubbing shoulders with him, make sure he felt included.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_03: And it was so interesting.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_03: I remember just being so frustrated because he was like, if you want to keep your job as the youth pastor, like you need to make sure that you're like talking with this guy, making this guy feel important or whatever.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_03: And I was like, if he wants to see what I'm doing with the kids, like he should just come.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_03: Come on a Wednesday night, come see what I'm doing.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_03: I had it was actually very a very good youth pastor, and I am really proud of the fact that almost none of my kids are still Christian.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_03: A lot of them weren't even Christians when they came.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_03: I had I had two atheists that would come openly, and I was very much told them, you know, like encouraged curiosity.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_03: And said, like, I don't want you to believe this because I tell you to, and I'm never gonna tell you that faith is the answer to any subject, and there's a lot about this that doesn't make sense.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_03: I'll be honest with you.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_03: There's a lot I knew, I I was I was very like one one foot in cognizant of the fact that I'm like, there's a ton of this that doesn't make sense, and I want you to bypass your own logic to make it make sense.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_03: But if you have an encounter with spirit, if you have a real encounter with God, you'll know that you have, and it is undeniable and it is found and powerful.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know about all this Bible stuff sometimes, but I know about the like spirit that I've connected to.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, pursue that and have that relationship make it make sense to you, and if it doesn't, no worries.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and and I to I mean, on my way, so let me not get ahead of myself.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_03: So I was seeing behind the curtain and very much like I don't think this is making sense to me anymore, and I need a break.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_03: I had had some really weakly profound encounters with God, like not just goosebumps and whatever, but like miracles, like real miracle happen.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_03: That and at a really young age, like I was 16, and I prayed for a girl who had scoliosis, and I had my hand on her spine, and I said, you know, in the name of Jesus, I command you to be straight, and I felt her spine.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_04: Whoa, like wow.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_03: This is a girl I go to school with.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_03: This is a girl I checked in with her like three years later, being like, How's that spine doing?
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_03: She was like, It's still straight.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_03: Like so that, I mean, you have that happen to you at 16, you're pretty much in.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_03: You, you're like, okay, it's real, too late.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_03: And so I didn't really like want to walk away for a long time.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_03: But when I saw the way the church was working, I I just and then combined that with just like a lot of my own disappointment.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_03: And this comes from, like I said, like I didn't think that I was allowed to determine what I wanted for my life.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_03: And I spent all this time trying to figure out what's God's will for my life, what do I want, or what what does He want for me?
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_03: I just I just want to be a servant to your will.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_03: God, tell me, tell me what to do.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_03: If you just tell me what to do, I'll do fucking anything, but just tell me crickets, nothing, no divine spark.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_03: And and so then there would be like some things that would kind of come up sometimes, like a little opportunity that would seem to come out of nowhere, and I would be like, oh, I would think this is God talking to me, you know, oh, here's here's the thing that God wanted for me.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_03: And I would like go to pursue it and it would just evaporate.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_03: Wow.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_03: And that happened like three times, like three very distinct ones that that were like big.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_03: It was like a big move or a big job or like something like this.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_03: And I was like, Oh, okay, God, here's your will for my life.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_03: And I'd be like, Why did you let me get excited about this thing if you didn't even want me to have it?
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_03: And I just got so mad.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_03: I was like, God, I know you're real, but I'm taking a break.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_03: I can't deal with you right now.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_03: And so during that time, I get a divorce, I move to Italy, I come back.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_03: I and in this time, it's the first time that I start to say, like, I don't give a fuck what anyone's will is for my life.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_03: I want to do what I want to do.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_03: What do I want to do right now?
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_03: And some of that was maybe a little out of pocket.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_03: Some of that maybe look like maybe because when you're 24 years old and suddenly hell's not real anymore, you kind of were like do whatever I want.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_03: And I was I was just like having affairs, I don't think just doing like I was I say I describe that period of my life as um when I suddenly had a blank canvas for my life, and the only paint brushes that I had were pain and chaos.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_03: That just went crazy.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_03: And then uh at a certain point, I was like, wait, turns out just being kind to people, being considerate of how something might make someone feel.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_03: Um, not like there would be a lot of times I would just like, you know, somebody was there.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_03: I was had so many friends like offer to help me or like be there for me, and I would just kind of almost like no call, no show type situation of like people really trying to support me.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_03: Because I was just like, well, I got caught up.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_03: I did what I want to do.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_03: I'm doing what I want to do, you know.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_03: And um, I was like, oh dang, like you can actually you can mess things up.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_03: It's not just for hell.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_03: We don't be a good person because of eternal damnation.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_03: We be a good person because like it matters, and what you put out is what you're gonna get, and how and people remember how you make them feel, and if you burn all your bridges, you'll be left with a pile of ash.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_03: What you know?
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_03: So um, yeah, I decided to move from Tennessee to Washington State, and that was pretty wild.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_03: I like randomly had met some guys, I waited tables at the time, and I I met some guys who lived out there like two years prior, who'd been like, if you ever want to come out to Port Angeles, lips and I was like, Okay.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_03: You know Port Angeles, yeah?
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_03: Um and I and that was like two years later, I like messaged and I'm like, hey, I don't know if you remember me.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_03: I waited tables, I waited your table two years ago.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but I was thinking about moving to Port Angeles.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_03: Like, if I wanted to, do you think you could help me with a job or a place to live or anything like that?
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_03: And he was like, Oh, my best friend just bought an apartment complex, and I actually own like kind of the best little restaurant in town, and you were an awesome server, so you could totally work for me.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_03: And then there's like some other stuff as well.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_03: And so I reached out on April 4th.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_03: By April 7th, I had a job and a place to live, and by April 27th, I bought a car, sold everything that wouldn't fit into it, and then started a like two-week journey to the West Coast.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_04: Wow.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_03: A sight unseen to a place I'd never been.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_03: Take talk about a leap into the unknown.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_03: A total leap.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_03: And um, about the Grand Canyon zone, I was like, I just had a moment where you know, I I had left Tennessee, I had gone down to New Orleans, had a fun time, like went through Austin, went through Texas, like just, you know, on my on my shit, on the other side of Austin, there's a lot of Texas.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_03: It just does not end for so long.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_03: Have gotten better at meditating these days, but it still is really hard.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_03: But if you sit me in a car for hours and hours on it with nothing but the road beneath my tires, and and I just will slip into something that's more like meditation.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_03: And I like thought it's just like the the flaming shit show of my life in the rear view mirror.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_03: It's like the smoke.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_03: I can see the smoke, I can hear the cries.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_03: I just oh man.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_03: And I I knew that I was running.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_03: And I knew everybody says, you know, anywhere you go, there you are.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_03: And so I really like let everything catch up with me at the Grand Canyon.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_03: And I woke up early and watched the sunrise and sat on the edge and just like just didn't try to get away from it.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_03: Just let myself be like, yes, you sucked.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_03: And this this is a thing about self-love sometimes.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_03: I think that we forget that like sometimes self-love is really like looking at exactly how nasty you are too.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_03: And not embracing every aspect of yourself um in in a permissive way, but like letting everything come up and out, and realizing we do have the power to change.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_03: And you you can look at yourself and you don't have to the shame is what is making you not look at it.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_03: The shame is like making it like, oh my goodness, like I can't, I don't want to see that.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_03: And and so you're like like blinders on, like pretending that it's not real, the shame and the guilt, rather than just like uh just seeing it objectively.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_03: Hey, I'm not shaming you, I'm not like trying to make you feel guilty, but like that was unacceptable.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_03: And and not Unacceptable, but that is that's not who you want to be.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_03: That's not what you want your legacy to be.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_03: That cannot be the best we can do.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_03: Please, please tell me that ain't the best we can do.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm not gonna pretend I didn't do it.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_03: I I had myself a high whole time.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_03: But I just like sat with it and and learned from it and let myself say, okay, here's how I want to be different.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_03: Here's how I'll know if it is different.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_03: Here's what it will look like instead.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_03: And I didn't really have like everything like ironed out necessarily, but I like walked into a feeling.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_03: One of the biggest feelings that I wanted to have was like I wanted to feel proud of myself, like legitimately proud of myself, and not something where I just, you know, say in the mirror, like I'm proud of you, you know, every day.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_03: But like did things that I would be proud that I am legitimately proud of, you know, it's not like table, you know, feed yourself the feeling that you want, but know the feeling that you want and then be honest with yourself about what would make you h what would elicit that feeling out of you.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_03: Feelings are involuntary almost, you know, like if you know like a color makes you happy.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_03: Like, why does green make me so happy?
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_03: Why does that color just like make me feel like you know, and it doesn't for everyone?
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know why, but I do know that green makes me feel that way.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_03: So if I want that feeling, then I put green around.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_03: And it's like if I want to feel proud of myself, then I need to do a hard thing on a regular basis and be able to measure improvement from it.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_03: I need to have a list that I knew back then I had been like a couch potato, and I was like, I want to be athletic, I want to be like an outdoorsy girl.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_03: People hike in Tennessee, but I never did.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_03: And you don't hike, and then people don't think they two hike, so then people don't invite you to hike.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_03: You say no one time, and then they're like, Oh, she doesn't hike.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_03: I showed up at Washington and people were like, Do you like hiking?
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_03: I said, Yes, I do.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_03: Totally.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_03: But I used to, I was like, I love hiking, and I've never been on a hike.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, my first hike was Mount Storm King.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_03: And I was like, Are we am I good?
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_03: So, anyway, so I just feel like knowing, sorry, there's a little construction happening.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_03: Could you hear that?
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_03: No, no, I'm great.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, perfect.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, the headphones are working.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_03: So, yes, so then I let myself be everything that was a problem and let that be the end of the problem, you know?
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_03: And not that anything changed overnight because nothing really does, but your trajectory changes overnight.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_03: Your whole self doesn't change overnight, but your trajectory changes overnight.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_03: And trajectory plus time equals a whole ass new person.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_03: I love that.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_03: That's cool.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_03: That's the clip.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_03: That's the clip for the trajectory plus time equals a whole new person.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_04: Uh yeah.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_03: So I reoriented that day and continued on, and I put some rules for myself, and I was like, you know, I didn't mat I didn't meet the rules.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_03: I said, I'm not gonna date for a year, no sex for six months, because I had been yeah, I had been particularly problematic in that regard.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_03: And I made it about half on both.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_03: And that counts.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, it does.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_03: You gotta start somewhere, you know.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_03: So um, yeah.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_03: So then I get to the West Coast and well, hold on.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_03: Do you can we pause there?
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_03: Should we check check in?
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_03: How are you feeling?
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_03: You have some follow-up.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, I'm feeling very uh very moved by your story, Ren.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, your vulnerability and how much you've shared here.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_00: And you so beautifully articulated this, this, yeah, kind of this this up and down and all around sort of journey you went on, starting all the way in Tennessee and being really steeped in religious culture, dogmatic religious culture, and yeah, how that really shaped you.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_00: I think we sometimes forget how much those early childhood experiences really do shape our perspective of the world, our identity, our beliefs.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I can hear you really bumping up against all of those as you continue to really kind of meet those parts in yourself that were more curious and wanted to explore more and and knew that something like wasn't quite right.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_00: So I do really want to celebrate that, that really wise part of you that that knew that like, you know, something just isn't quite right here for me.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, yeah, we all have that part of ourselves.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think like you you've named that's the part of ourselves that gets conditioned out when we find ourselves in these dogmatic religious settings because of, like you said, control, right?
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_00: And it's much easier to control people if they're dick disconnected from their sense of autonomy, their sense of truth, their sense of self.
• 29:06
  unknown: Yeah.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_03: A million percent.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_03: And it's yeah, it is interesting.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_03: Like like I literally just said of the like time, trajectory plus time, yeah, is like what develops us.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_03: And so so much of our trajectories were set as children.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, yeah.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_03: For we like that's like really what it is.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_03: Like we and like the thing is, is like I I think I think it's important to note that we did choose them.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_03: We did choose them.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, tell me more about that.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_03: And well, when it comes to even like trauma behavior, like I first heard the word trauma, or no, I first heard the word trigger, I think in like 2013.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_03: And I was like, Oh that's what that is, you know.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_03: Somebody described it's like something happens and like how a song can bring you back to another time and place, it brings you back to another time and place, and suddenly you're not the 22-year-old dealing with the situation, you're a four-year-old.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_03: But the thing that's important to note is that the four-year-old still chose to cope in that way.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_03: That is what they learned in that moment.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_03: And I think when it comes for me, it's always about like pulling back as much power into my own hands as possible.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_03: Um and realizing that my like trauma responses were learned, which means I learned them.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, and I took them to be truth.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_03: And yes, I was four years old or three years old or five years old or whatever, so not as consciously as I can at this point, but even deeper somatically.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, and but there was something about like trauma responses are learned behaviors, and anything that you learn can be unlearned or relearned.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_03: And that like set me free.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_03: And back in like 2013, I was like, oh my goodness, I okay, wait a minute.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_04: Everything has to be different now.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_03: Because up to that point, I had just been like, well, well, yeah, I just freak out sometimes because I'm so yeah, I just think I always like to note that it's like we never, it wasn't ever like before we could choose.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_03: It's before we realized there were more choices.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, thank you for that articulation.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_00: That was really beautiful said, and that makes a lot of sense.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I can sense a lot of resonance in that myself because our systems, like we've kind of named before we started recording, they're still wise, right?
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_00: And they're connected to this intelligence that goes far beyond what the mind can comprehend.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_00: And they will do anything that they can to protect us and to keep us safe.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_00: And they choose what they can in that moment.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes as we get older, those choices, you know, either they don't work anymore or they're not relevant, or we just have more choices begin to open up to us.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for that.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_00: Totally.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_00: Never heard it quite articulated in that way.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_01: I've never articulated it that way.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_01: But it made sense.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we're live, we're live, we're tapped in and live.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_00: Wonderful.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, what a what an epic journey you have been on.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's been so interesting to hear about how it brought you to to where you are here and now.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, one of the things you shared in your bio on your website is this.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_00: Let me find the word.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_00: Hang on, boudoir.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_00: Boudoir.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_00: My goodness, why am I struggling with the word?
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_00: I'm also very pre-mention.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_01: You can't well, it's because they're like I'm thinking of the wine, Burdeaux.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_01: You're thinking of the wine, yes.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_00: Sexy photography create that new pathway in my brain.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um also very pre-mention right now, too.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_00: And so sometimes words right before the period starts can can get a little funky.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, but I want to hear about your first experience with this photo shoot, and because you shared on your website that it wasn't a positive experience for you necessarily.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, yeah.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_00: So I'd love to hear a little bit more about like what kind of led you to that photo shoot now that you're in Washington and what that experience was like and how it kind of brought you into stepping into the role of photographer yourself.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_03: Hmm.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_03: Well, my journey to becoming a photographer was just started by my first partner when I moved out here, bought me a camera.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_03: And he was a musician, and he said, You need a thing.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_03: And he knew I was artistic and just saw the way I would like take my take such care with my iPhone photos.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_03: So he got me a real camera.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_03: And I I had dabbled with cameras before when I was, yeah, back when I lived in Tennessee, like I would borrow someone's camera, but I didn't really like understand it.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_03: So I owe so much to that man for helping me like claim being a photographer, navigate those first initial rejections that would have made my tender heart just like, oh, never mind, so sorry, didn't mean it.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_03: I uh yeah, I owe so much to him.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_03: Um so back when I had lived in Tennessee, back when I was dabbling with my ex's camera, I had a friend who asked me to do a boudoir shoot for her.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_03: Um, because she was getting married and she was a virgin, of course.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_03: And wait, like did a little photo shoot for her.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_03: And I had seen this like really cool blossoming that happened during that process as she became comfortable.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_03: And I just thought it was like so powerful.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that that that memory just kind of lived in like a special little part of my heart.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_03: I didn't really think of it often.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_03: But then I get a camera and I start doing a lot of content for bars and restaurants because I had been waiting tables, so it was like a nice space for me.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_03: Once I was like getting pretty well established, I kind of remembered this other type of photography and how cool it was.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_03: Me and that same ex, we lived in a van together and we traveled around and we'd spent a lot of time naked outside.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_03: So there was like that inclination for me.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, she's always gotta make her little appearance.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_00: Liz Lemon has just entered the chat.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_03: Amazing.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_03: We need a mindset.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_03: Um and so I had an inclination to kind of do it outside, um, just because that's what I had been doing.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_03: But um as I I was thinking about, you know, like I was like, how does how does one be a boudoir photographer?
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_03: I don't actually know.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_03: So I booked myself a shoot as like a test run, as like I was gonna I'm I'm self-taught entirely.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_03: So uh I thought, okay, well, maybe I can learn from this other person what to do and like how to pose people and like um and it was truly quite an experience, very much a learning experience, just not the learning I thought I was gonna be doing.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_03: And I think like I had mentioned to her that I am a photographer as well, so I think that she had her guard down around me.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_03: I don't think that she necessarily would have done this for everyone, but it was very formulaic.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_03: It was very much, I felt like I was being, you know, just like, okay, here's this, now here's this, now here's this, now move this way, now bend this way.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_03: And it felt incredibly uncomfortable to me.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_03: There were she put my body in a lot of positions that I would never put my body in.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_03: She was making comments about some photos that she was editing.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_03: They mentioned that I should start getting Botox.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_04: Whoa.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so just like kind of even like before I'm on camera, I'm like feeling like not very worthy.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_03: Totally, yeah.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_03: It felt really corny.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_03: There were, you know, it was like, here's the pillow fight scene, here's the like, you know, the arced back scene, here's the the and it it was very she knew the five shots, five scenes, the five whatever that were what people expect.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_03: She had the closet, she it just felt like she was just cranking them out like as fast as she could.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_03: And I didn't feel seen, I didn't feel celebrated, I didn't feel like sexy necessarily, like you know, there's something about like being in the lingerie or you know, that like that, it wasn't entirely bad, but but it did just leave me feeling twisted and contorted and forced into a version of me that I would like I looked back at these photos and and they objectively look hot, but all I could think was this experience of like not being good enough, not like and not like being able to be myself.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_03: Like, oh, you want to be sexy?
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_03: Here's what sexy is.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_03: Let me squeeze you into that mold.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_03: And it also made me realize, and I I totally fawned too.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I it was like the session was this much, but then this, you know, the sales of it were this much, and like pick these photos.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_03: And I I literally said to her, I was like, I don't really like any of these.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_03: She was like, You don't like any of them?
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_03: Like it like made me feel bad.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_03: Wow.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_03: So then I like felt bad.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_03: So then I bought them.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_03: I like spent like hundreds of dollars just to get and she was like, I can't believe you don't like it.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_03: Like, you don't even like this one.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_03: And I was like, I mean, it's okay.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_03: I just and I like fawned.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so I'm just like, oh sorry, here's my money.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_03: Like and I think back to that, I'm like, oh my goodness, girl, girl, spine.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_03: But but you know, it's all good.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_03: I we I I know I have had exactly as much spine as I can in any moment.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_03: So um, but she yeah, she I looked back at these photos and and just remembered the experience where I felt not good at all.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_03: And that's when I realized like the photos are the least important part of what I do.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_03: I wanted to create experiences where people felt mostly like themselves.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_03: Most of all, I want it to be beautiful, I want it to feel free, I want it to feel sexy, I want it to be fun, I want it to be all of these things.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_03: But if you look back at the photos and you don't feel like it looks like you in them, it doesn't matter.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_03: And uh that process is a little like funky, I'd say, because it but people will like, well, what do you want me to do?
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_03: What do you what should I do with my hand?
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_03: But you know, and I'll I'll give them like a little bit, I'll give them like a space, like, okay, move in this space, like right here, you know.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_03: I like my photos, I have lots of movement in it, so I don't overly pose things.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_03: I don't spend a lot of time, like, and it's funny because I think so much boudoir photography, you like look at even like the copy on the websites, and it's like you don't have to worry about a thing.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_03: I'll direct you perfectly, and I think that's all fine and good.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_03: I think that some people really do want to look like you know, look perfect in these photos, and that's like what they're aiming for, and having somebody that's gonna like you, like amazing.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_03: But I spend a lot of time on mine because if you feel there, you just let someone have some time to open up and to like you can't stay awkward in front of the camera all day.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_03: Like eventually you're gonna break, eventually you're gonna be like, okay, all right, fine, okay, fine, I'll I'll play now.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_03: You can't stay vigil, you can stay vigilant for like an hour, but you can't stay vigilant for a full hour, you know what I mean?
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_03: And not that you like have to eat them.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_03: There's like so much like silliness and just like taking in the scenes that I think can really help with that, but it changed my whole approach, and I really think of photos as these like keys.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm lost the memory of the experience.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_03: And so for me, my focus is on the experience, especially like my adventure stuff.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I'm like, oh my goodness, like I'm in Australia right now, and I'm trying to get some.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_03: I've got to figure out how to do it because I haven't like done like targeted ads before.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_03: But like, hey, let me take you on an adventure.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_03: Cause I I just spent last week on the Great Ocean Road and I was exploring all over the place and I found these really cool beaches and really cool stuff.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm like, come with me, let's go.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_03: I'll show you because I'm a girl who will spend hours getting lost trying to find a cute place, and I'm very good at it.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_03: And I've found it, you know, I found the like more obscure place that you can't find by just Googling it.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_03: And then and then let's just go play and let's go have fun.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_03: Let's go feel elemental and let's like feel into our body and like feel how good it is to be in the sun and to laugh and to giggle and to like have a freaking experience.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_03: And then and then the photos just get to be a reminder of like how powerful and good and free and wild you got to feel for even a day.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_00: That's beautiful.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_00: It seems like like I don't know that many approach it in that way.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_00: And it and it's interesting because I've got myself a little note here, boudoir.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_00: There we go.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_00: It seems like, you know, a very sensual, sexual, and you know, photography.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_00: And then to hear your experience of this very um, you know, not that it's about gender, but more of just like the energetic qualities of a more masculine approach, kind of like putting you in a box, giving you direction, telling you what to do, expecting, you know, things to just kind of pump out in this very get 'em in, get em out kind of manner.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_00: Then to hear your approach, which is very um, I don't know if intuitive resonates with you.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's more open, more free, and more focused on the experience and and the feeling.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I can imagine that your clients, the people you photograph, probably really feel that difference too.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it comes across in your photography as well.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_00: That's one of the reasons I was so drawn to it.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, wow, this is so raw and real.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's quite revolutionary to me.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if you've ever thought about it that way, but I find that's really beautiful to to completely change your approach and to have this more feminine way of going about something which which is to me inherently feminine.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_00: Again, not about gender, but more about quality.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_00: Totally.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I think that there's like this line between like sexy or uh sexual and sensual.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, could you could you tell us what your perspective of like the difference between sexuality and sensuality?
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, well, I mean, I guess like sexual like well if we say sexuality and sensuality, that's different.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_03: So let me take him to the or to the um adjectives, which are sensual and sexual.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_03: And so I feel like sexual ends up having like a more explicit, like, we're gonna fuck energy.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_03: And I think I think of a classic dick pic.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_03: So like, here's what we're walking with.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_03: And it has this very like like, all right, here's what it is, where sensual is like an invitation to like dip into your senses, yeah, and your sense of touch and your sense of smell and your sense of taste and your sense of like like really feel yourself or feel your body inside, outside, along your skin.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_03: I think that the irony of the whole thing is that the what has been coined.
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_03: Does the male gaze, but just like kind of a more traditional look of sexy is a woman experiencing pleasure.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_03: But it doesn't act like it rather than my approach is like let a woman experience pleasure through sensual through her senses, and then you'll get that image back rather than like the performed experience of pleasure.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_03: It's the authentic feeling of pleasure.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_03: And so it's just interesting, like, like for the for the male gaze stuff that it's we both get to the same place, but it's like through a different, you know, rather than like performing it or like imagining yourself there or you know, like really arch your back, really do this, you know, it's like who can you like and and not that we don't do that in my photo shoots, like there's a little bit of performance in everything.
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_03: Showing up, getting dressed in the morning is performance.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_03: So like there's no there's our essence, our like what we really are, isn't even a human body, you know?
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_03: So so like even being a human right now is a bit of cosplay.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_03: And so I don't think there's like anything wrong with like taking and running with it, but I let it be on their terms.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_03: I let if somebody came to like give me a sexy little show, then I'll let them give me a sexy little show and I'll document it.
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_03: I'm here for the I'm I'm just gonna do work with what someone brings me.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_03: Um rather than these and I I I think it sorry, I'm ADD cutting myself off mid-sentence four times in a row.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_03: But um, it can be hard for me when somebody comes to me very much expecting me to just like give them the experience that is in my photos rather than realizing like I'm gonna hold that space and like you need to feel that and and want that for yourself.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_03: And like I've like worked out the path, but it's you.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I can't, I will fan the flame, but you are the spark.
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_03: And so sometimes I feel like there's like this like, would you, you know, help me be that.
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_03: And like, mm, I'll I'll set the stage, I'll bring the snacks, I'll take the pictures, but you have to feel that.
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_03: And it's I had one girl in particular, I think she's the first one that you land on when you go to my website, first picture, but um, she was like, Wow, I really love your photos, but like I'm just not there yet.
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not there yet.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_03: And we were friends for like five years, and she would she would mention, one day I want to do a photo shoot with you.
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_03: One day.
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_03: I'm like, okay, you just let me know.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I'm ready when you're ready.
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_03: And then one day she called me, she's like, you know, I woke up today, and the first thought I had about myself, the first genuine thought I had about myself was, Wow, you have such beautiful eyelashes.
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_03: She's like, I think I'm ready.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_00: That's so sweet, so beautiful.
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_01: It was so good.
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_03: And she had she had like, you know, gone through a big breakup, lived on her own for the first time, went back to school, found herself, you know, just did her like daily devotion to herself in the mirror, you know, positive affirmations, like really being so intentional to like love on herself until the day came where the first thought was, wow, you're such beautiful.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_03: I love it.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_03: I was like, oh, okay, let's go.
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_03: And then she brought it, you know, like she came and she was ready and she's dancing, and she knew what she wanted, she knew what it was gonna be, and I and made a playlist and all these.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_03: It's just this like I love um, I love the people who like bring the energy and let us like co-create rather than I think it can be easy in a commercialized consumeristic society of like, oh cool, I'll have I'll buy that.
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_03: I want that too.
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm like, oh well it wasn't just me who did that.
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_00: Right, it was a process.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_00: There was two people, it was a co-creation process.
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it sounds like there really is some magic to the work you do, and it sounds like a really empowering experience.
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm wondering for a woman who's, you know, maybe, or you know, anybody, any human who's wanting to, you know, maybe explore themselves in this way, how they might get themselves there.
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_00: Cause I'm sure as you've already kind of, you know, touched at that there are people who are maybe kind of resistant to expressing themselves in a way and allowing themselves to be seen in this way.
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_00: And so what are some of the things that you do to kind of support people through that process?
• 51:01
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I think it's it's all the the typical stuff that people talk about, you know, just like being kind to yourself, like saying good things about your body, like intentionally, like walking around your house naked more, going skinny dipping more, like spending time allowing yourself to just be and exist in the nude, I think is really hard.
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_03: And also like not I I realize that that's even like single person privilege, you know, like people who have kids or with roommates.
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_00: And still, like you might even like, well, I mean, why not?
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think in our society we have really sexualized nudity, and so you know, someone walking around naked with like a you know, a small child's like, you know, inappropriate, and maybe it is a certain age, but you know, is it inappropriate because we've deemed it as inappropriate, or is it very natural because we all like have a body, right?
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_03: I'll never forget.
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_03: I'll never forget one time I was out in Hawaii and we've gone to this really remote part of it, and and me and my ex were running around naked.
• 52:17
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_03: And I was just thinking about, I was like, man, this is what this is what they were doing.
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_03: That's where it all started.
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_03: You know, just like a little like this is what and then my English ancestors came in and were like, no, put your clothes on.
• 52:36
  SPEAKER_03: And now the Hawaiians are wearing clothes while my white ass is out here finding a piece of jungle to run around in what's wrong.
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_03: And I was like, this is something, something has gone wrong here.
• 52:49
  SPEAKER_03: Something has gone terribly wrong.
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I mean, I don't I don't really know.
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_03: I don't really know.
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know the answer.
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_03: To me, I think that there's an over sexualization of it, a deming of wrongness of it.
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_03: And then the more you to me, it feels like just trying to create more of that tension.
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_03: You know, it's like the women are totally responsible for like not, you know, not being a source of some of temptation, but also you keep the women like cloth hella clothed, no, you can't see anything or whatever.
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_03: And then you're creating the the tension necessary for the man to really like give me just a piece.
• 53:33
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I can't see anything, I just want anything, right?
• 53:37
  SPEAKER_03: You know, and it's like creating this, creating like scarcity, yeah.
• 53:42
  SPEAKER_00: Scarcity culture.
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_00: Kind of like a like a uh cycle too, like a loop that we kind of keep feeding into.
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_03: One million percent.
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_03: I'm just like, yeah, I'm just putting that together right now.
• 53:54
  SPEAKER_03: I'm like, oh yeah, if you like force them to be super clothed, yeah, then then the idea of them without clothes becomes even more alluring.
• 54:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yeah, absolutely.
• 54:07
  SPEAKER_01: This system really they feels so well thought through.
• 54:13
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I'm like, was it really this well thought through?
• 54:15
  SPEAKER_03: Did they really come up with all of that before they got started?
• 54:19
  SPEAKER_03: Or did they just kind of start and then realize what was working?
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 54:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, I don't know either.
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_00: It is interesting to to think about, and you know, we see this not just in this context, but in so many other contexts as well, where there really have been things that, you know, seemingly were put in place or just fell into place that really do keep us disconnected from our sense of power, from our sense of autonomy.
• 54:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I think as a verdict kind of named it, you know, it's much easier to control people in that way.
• 54:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's more important, you know, now more than ever, to really explore how can we begin to take some of our autonomy back.
• 55:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I see you doing that so beautifully in your work when you're out in Hawaii, you know, being naked and free in the jungle, and just the way in which you're leading people through these experiences that you're creating as well, really empowering them to approach the experience in a way that honors their intuitive knowing their inner sense, rather than giving them a prescription of what sensuality or sexuality is, letting them find it and discover it for themselves.
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's it's a long-lost skill in this day and age.
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I do think it's one of the skills that is really going to keep people, I don't know if alive is the right word, but I think that's what's gonna help create the change.
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_03: Vitality.
• 55:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yeah, yeah.
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_00: Beautiful.
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_03: Uh yeah, I hope so.
• 55:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I do too.
• 55:54
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's the work we're doing here on the show, and I really see you doing that workout in your world too.
• 56:00
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 56:01
  SPEAKER_03: It's nice to meet someone else on the quest.
• 56:04
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's all of us here and all of the guests that have been on the show.
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, my vision is really to create this community where we can educate and empower women and and folks and people in general, and starting to bring more I don't know if balance is the right word, but I mean we can see these patriarchal systems slowly beginning to crumble, you know, right before our eyes.
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_00: And this is a time of great change and of great transformation.
• 56:32
  unknown: Yeah.
• 56:34
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 56:34
  SPEAKER_03: And I think just like holding that vision of what what we're trying to move towards, you know, like don't maybe we don't maybe it's like me moving out west, you know, it's like not every single detail is worked out, but like how do we want to feel on the other side of this?
• 56:52
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 56:52
  SPEAKER_03: Like, and I think that's so much a part of the revolution, it's just spending time.
• 56:59
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, we have to acknowledge what's going on.
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, we need to be honest about it, but we can't let all of our feelings be focused on where we came from.
• 57:13
  SPEAKER_03: You know, like had I been so anchored in the shame and the guilt and moved out west, I probably would have just gathered more shame and guilt rather than like, okay, I'm not saying that this didn't happen.
• 57:28
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not saying that we have not been out of pocket.
• 57:34
  SPEAKER_03: But I want to focus on how do I want to feel moving forward?
• 57:40
  SPEAKER_03: I want to be proud of myself, I want to be kind, I want to be full of adventure, I want to feel vital and enthused and energized and curious, whatever that is, and and equitable.
• 57:55
  SPEAKER_03: And like some of these systems that are in place are just so bogus.
• 58:01
  SPEAKER_03: They're so bogus and and they've always been bogus, and I'm I'm excited that the illusion is glitching.
• 58:12
  SPEAKER_03: It is indeed.
• 58:16
  SPEAKER_03: Oh god, what in the what and it's like I feel like that's what's happening right now.
• 58:22
  SPEAKER_03: It's like a little glitch in it, and we're we're like, wait, did it did you see that?
• 58:26
  SPEAKER_03: Were there aliens?
• 58:28
  SPEAKER_01: Are there pedophiles in power?
• 58:31
  SPEAKER_03: Did everyone just see what just happened?
• 58:33
  SPEAKER_03: It's like, yes, yes, we did.
• 58:35
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, so the illusion is glitching.
• 58:38
  SPEAKER_03: We'll it it's losing the power necessary to sustain it.
• 58:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 58:45
  SPEAKER_03: Amazing.
• 58:46
  SPEAKER_03: Let's see what's real and let's move towards something that we want to show up for.
• 58:52
  SPEAKER_03: That's the other thing, is like we don't want to show up for this whack ass matrix.
• 58:57
  SPEAKER_03: Nobody wants to work anymore, everyone's feeling depressed.
• 59:01
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, people being, you know, it's like that is a sign of the fact that like we don't want to play this version of this game anymore.
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_03: Like this is we are done, we are so freaking done.
• 59:12
  SPEAKER_00: Very wise responses to or very valid and wise responses to the system in which we're living in.
• 59:20
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 59:20
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 59:21
  SPEAKER_03: If you're feeling like hunky dory dandy, it's like, what?
• 59:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 59:27
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's yeah.
• 59:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 59:29
  SPEAKER_00: We're we're approaching the our time here, man.
• 59:31
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like I could talk to you for hours.
• 59:34
  SPEAKER_00: So much I wanted to explore today, but you have you have shared your your love and your heart um and your story so generously today.
• 59:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I trust that our listeners will be touched by your story and maybe see a little bit of themselves in their story.
• 59:50
  SPEAKER_00: And if people are feeling curious to explore more about your work, how might people be able to get in touch with you if they wanted to do a bur burr?
• 1:00:01
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my goodness.
• 1:00:04
  SPEAKER_00: Don't say let me say it.
• 1:00:06
  SPEAKER_00: Let me find it.
• 1:00:08
  SPEAKER_00: Because I've also been like trying to remember all these names I teach kids during the day.
• 1:00:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so I have a lot of just words and names in my head.
• 1:00:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um Burd Budoir.
• 1:00:18
  SPEAKER_00: Did I get it?
• 1:00:21
  SPEAKER_00: Boudoir.
• 1:00:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:00:25
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my god.
• 1:00:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:00:30
  SPEAKER_01: Amazing, amazing.
• 1:00:32
  SPEAKER_01: We got there.
• 1:00:33
  SPEAKER_00: So this is where people can get in touch with you.
• 1:00:36
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 1:00:37
  SPEAKER_03: Well, if you want to check out my work, I'm renmarrow.com.
• 1:00:42
  SPEAKER_03: And if you would like to see some kind of behind the scenes and lots of memes, um, Ren or uh at underscore Renmaro on Instagram.
• 1:00:57
  SPEAKER_03: And that's all that's the only places I'm at right now.
• 1:01:00
  SPEAKER_03: I I really would like and need to work on a substack, but we'll see.
• 1:01:06
  SPEAKER_03: My notes app is out of control.
• 1:01:08
  SPEAKER_03: We really need to get it out into the world.
• 1:01:12
  SPEAKER_03: It was like my substack is just my notes app with bravery.
• 1:01:15
  unknown: Totally.
• 1:01:16
  SPEAKER_03: Wonderful.
• 1:01:17
  SPEAKER_03: Um, anyway, thank you so much for having me.
• 1:01:19
  SPEAKER_03: This was such a treat.
• 1:01:21
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and your energy is so beautiful, and you had just the cutest dimples.
• 1:01:26
  SPEAKER_03: Oh my god.
• 1:01:28
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 1:01:28
  SPEAKER_00: Wonderful.
• 1:01:30
  SPEAKER_00: Well, thanks again, Ren.
• 1:01:31
  SPEAKER_00: And um, yes, I trust that listeners got what they needed from today's episode.
• 1:01:35
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you again for your time.
• 1:01:37
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
• 1:01:38
  SPEAKER_03: Cheerio.