Latest / Clear Admit MBA Admissions Podcast / MBA Wire Taps 394—720 GMAT, low GPA. High GPA, low GRE. 3.98 GPA, 331 GRE.

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MBA Wire Taps 394—720 GMAT, low GPA. High GPA, low GRE. 3.98 GPA, 331 GRE. · Clear Admit MBA Admissions Podcast

• 0:16
  Speaker A: Welcome to the Clear Admit MBA Admissions Podcast. I'm Graham Richmond, and this is your Wiretaps for Monday, November 11, 2024. Are you looking for an MBA program where you'll be more than just a number? Vanderbilt business offers a personalized learning experience to help each student reach their unique career goals. Whether you're looking to switch careers entirely or accelerate the path you're on, the Vanderbilt MBA program will provide you with the individual support you need to propel your career forward. Vanderbilt is currently waiving their $200 application fee for MBA Wiretaps listeners. To learn more about the Vanderbilt MBA program and to claim your application fee waiver, Visit Business Vanderbilt. Edu ClearAdmit. I'm joined by Alex Brown from Cornwall, England. Alex, how are things going this week?
• 1:01
  Speaker B: Very good, thank you, Graham.
• 1:03
  Speaker A: So it's been sort of a crazy week, right? We had, you know, we're recording this, obviously, our shows always air on Monday. We record, you know, usually the week prior, and in this instance, we're recording after the US election.
• 1:14
  Speaker B: Let's just cut to the chase, Graham. It's Trump. A new presidency in the United States.
• 1:19
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. So coming. Yeah. And I mean, I think it was surprising to me, at least the way that he won and, you know, in terms of the volume of votes and, yeah, he really got more electoral votes and popular votes than I had expected. And the Republicans, looks like they took the Senate and maybe the House too, although that's not yet decided, I guess. But, yeah. So it's been. What do you think the implications of all this are in our industry, you know, for, for MBA applications and because, you know, we could talk politics, but we're really an MBA admissions show. So what, what do you think this means for business school applicants?
• 1:54
  Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, it's quite clear that he does have a clear mandate to do whatever he chooses to do, I suppose, which is a little bit stressful in terms of thinking about that. But, you know, how does it affect us? I think it does have big implications, but I'll less talk about the idea of will it affect international students desire to come to the U.S. will it affect their ability to come to the U.S. in terms of visa issues? My biggest concern is more the potential rollback on environmental efforts. And I think business schools need to be leading those efforts. And also the quote unquote, woke agenda. We're very keen to see equality across gender, across various other groups and so forth. And again, I think we've made great strides in that regard. But this is potentially an administration that doesn't believe in either the environment nor these sort of equality issues. So, yeah, I'm concerned.
• 3:09
  Speaker A: Yeah, I do wonder. I mean, I guess we have one example of him having been president prior and there were some concerns about candidates coming to the US and, and there was definitely a restriction in visas and he did at one point actually talk about undoing the kind of STEM three year opt stuff that people, you know, international students can stay in the US and work for three years if the MBA program is STEM designated, which most of the top schools are, if not all of them. So yeah, it'll be interesting to see how this unfolds. I also, I guess, I mean, I hate to play devil's advocate on this one, but one of the things that was kind of interesting to see is the market's reaction. And so the stock market went way up. Now maybe that will change by the time this airs. But it's interesting, you know, you think about the regulatory environments and what this means for, you know, the big tech companies. And yeah, it's I, it's hard to know like where this all kind of shakes out when it comes to the MBA student. But it'll be, we'll be following it closely. So yeah, it's just.
• 4:09
  Speaker B: No doubt. No doubt.
• 4:10
  Speaker A: Yeah. So in any event, I did want to mention that this Wednesday because, you know, the show must go on. We're going to be doing another deferred enrollment event. Last week we had one that was fantastic with heart, Harvard and Yale and who else joined us? Chicago and Columbia. So that was a lot of fun. And this week we're going to sit down with Berkeley, Carnegie Mellon, Wharton, uva and Stanford. And you can sign up for this event. It's at Bit Ly Ca Defer mba and this is for undergrads or someone who's in a master's program that they started straight out of undergrad. And you can apply to these business schools early, get a spot, go off and work and then join them in a couple years time. So it's a really nice opportunity. Opportunity. So join us this Wednesday if you can. That's at noon Eastern. We also have a couple of events coming up in December on master's in management degrees. We're going to sit down with Duke and Emory and Chicago, Georgetown, a whole bunch of schools, Michigan. And you can sign up for those events at bit ly camim24. So stay tuned for that. Alex, Another thing, I hate to do all these housekeeping items, but we have this other thing which is that we're currently running A survey where we're trying to hear from applicants to business school about the relationships that they forge with alumni, current MBA students, admissions staff, faculty, et cetera. It's a really fun survey. I mean, it takes less than 10 minutes to fill out and it's super useful. We share that data with all the schools that we work with. And so you can take the survey by going to Bit ly casurvey fall to 4. So that should be, you know, it should be in the field for another week or two. But very important stuff. We're trying to really help schools understand, you know, the roles that their community members play in shaping the application journey. So yeah, please fill that out if you have a moment. Be really useful for us.
• 6:10
  Speaker B: Very good. Graham, you done promoting these things?
• 6:13
  Speaker A: I know, I know. Oh yeah, one other thing, we have a new sponsor for the show which is Vanderbilt, the Owen School. And they actually were a sponsor, I guess about a year ago. They do a little bit of sponsorship as we're, well, welcoming them back as a sponsor, which is really cool. But no, other than that. Alex, I did want to ask you a question. Forte just published their big kind of gender oriented survey results. They keep track of which schools are doing a good job at bringing more women into the programs and stuff. I don't know if you remember this, I shared some of the data with you before we came on air. But do you know how many schools have 50% or more of their enrolled students as women in this coming class.
• 6:57
  Speaker B: That just came in the top full time programs? Yeah, yeah, you did tell me.
• 7:02
  Speaker A: I know.
• 7:03
  Speaker B: I'm guessing between six and eight.
• 7:05
  Speaker A: Yeah, it's eight. And just to give you context, in 2020 there was only one school that actually met that threshold of having gender parity. So lots of progress being made there. In other news, we ran some admissions tips that are pretty critical. One is about questions ask your interviewer. So we help you out there because I know a lot of people are always like, what am I going to ask at the end of my interview? So there's an admissions tip on that. And then we also have an admissions tip on post interview kind of next steps, which mostly revolves around how do you write a thank you and how do you submit that? But we also talk a little bit about schools that have assignments like say HBS where you have to write a little essay after your interview so you can read that tip for more there.
• 7:48
  Speaker B: I'm surprised, Graham, that other schools haven't followed HBS in that regard. I do like that process that HBS has.
• 7:58
  Speaker A: Yeah, it's interesting. Also, I think it's probably useful for them to get feedback on what the candidate thought of the interview process and. Yeah, so, yeah, for some reason they're the only one doing it for now, but we'll see. Maybe with time there'll be more. We connected with students, Alex, at four different leading MBA programs as part of our ongoing Real Humans series. And so I wanted to share some fun quotes from these students. So the first school we connected with was Yale School of Management in New Haven. And we talked to Ryan, who went to Williams College. He's originally from Massachusetts. You'll love this. He was a producer at Freakonomics Radio, which is a popular podcast. He also did some consulting before business school. And we just asked him, why did you choose Yale som? What were the factors that really figured into your decision? And he said, the business and society mission mattered to me. And I don't know, Alex, if you recall, but Yale's kind of tagline is educating leaders for business and society. And so he said there's inherently a public good function to media as it serves as the utility through which people learn about the world. However, media companies also need to make a profit, and I'm eager to learn in an environment that acknowledges this sort of tension which is present across industries. He said, also, Yale's mission attracts a diverse group of students who are committed to purposeful, impactful work, making it the ideal place for me to grow both personally and professionally. So, Ryan, really resonating with Yale's kind of emphasis on society and not just business in their.
• 9:32
  Speaker B: Are you sure Yale's not the sponsor of this program? I know. Very good articulation, I think, of what all top tier candidates should aspire to in the MBA program they seek out.
• 9:47
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 9:47
  Speaker B: Which again, is. I mean, I hate to say it, Graham, but it's why I'm a little bit troubled with the next administration because they don't align with that sort of. That sort of ideology. I don't believe.
• 10:01
  Speaker A: Yeah, I hear you. And I think. And by the way, Ryan, I mean, I don't believe that he, you know, he just wrote that on his own, but it did jump out at me as being, you know, wow, this is great promotion for Yale. But we also connected with students at ESE in Spain in Barcelona. And this student, this is a really interesting student. His name is Ahmed. He's from Baghdad, Iraq, and he went to a tech university there in Baghdad, studied engineering, then went on to work at a number of companies, including GE and Total and we said, what's one thing you would absolutely do again as part of your application process? And Ahmed says having a mentor during the application process who has been in your shoes before was extremely helpful. The MBA application process is a rich experience in itself. And having someone whom you can reach for advice is valuable. This mentorship is growing and continuing. So I guess he had someone that he knew, maybe he'd gone off to business school before him, who was really helpful as he kind of journeyed down this path. So very interesting. And also, I mean, just thinking, talking about diversity, I mean, that ESA classroom, having someone from Iraq gotta be really interesting. I mean, I can't. I mean, it's gotta be some very interesting experiences that he would have to share in the classroom. Working in the energy sector there, that's brilliant.
• 11:18
  Speaker B: And I think having that sort of mental relationship through the admissions process is effectively, you know, what we would advocate more generally? Seeking out students at the program. You're targeting alumni if they're already in your network, that's absolutely fantastic. And let's hope that Ahmad is also seeking mentees now. Sort of paying it forward.
• 11:39
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 11:40
  Speaker B: Or backwards, I suppose, in terms of serving as that mentor to encourage other folks from similar backgrounds down their pathway.
• 11:50
  Speaker A: Yeah, totally. Could not agree more. We also then caught up with students at Kellogg at Northwestern in Chicago. And one of the students, Catherine, who hails from Orinda, California, she went to Dartmouth College, worked in finance. And we said, what's one thing you would absolutely do again as part of your application process? Just like we asked Ahmed, and she said, go to admitted students weekends. I thought these weekends were influential in deciding which school to attend. And my favorable experience was a primary reason why I applied to help run day at Kellogg next year. Day is their admit kind of admitted students event that they do. So I guess she must have had a fantastic experience at the Kellogg welcome event. And then now she's helping to run it this year, which is cool.
• 12:37
  Speaker B: Yeah. And my advice on top of that is a little bit counterintuitive, but if you've got multiple offers, go to the admit weekend of the program that you're prioritizing.
• 12:49
  Speaker A: Right. So go to the one that you. Yeah. That you think so you. Why is that counterintuitive? Because you would think some people might go to the one, they feel like they're less interested.
• 12:57
  Speaker B: They might want to go to the one that maybe they know a little bit less about. They're going to it to discount it or whatever it might be. But the what you gain from going to these events is not just, you know, finalizing your decision, but also those relationships and networks. They begin oftentimes at these types of events. Yeah, good point. So there's so much more you get out of these events other than just the rah, rah, please come because we're great, etc. So I would really encourage, encourage that. Yeah.
• 13:34
  Speaker A: Yeah. All right. So last but not least, with these real humans, we did talk to students at NYU Stern. And this student named PJ is from South Carolina, originally went to Clemson and he worked on political campaigns and also did some strategy consulting with kpmg. But we asked pj, why did you choose NYU Stern much in the way that we asked that Ryan at Yale. What PJ said about Stern, he said a major factor for me was the community. Stern's full time MBA is much smaller than other leading programs and the students and alumni that I spoke with were engaging and accessible. The program's diversity is another big plus. During undergrad, I studied abroad at a similarly diverse program and had a very formative experience. So the chance to do something similar was appealing. Plus, you can't beat New York and the opportunities it offers. So PJ again, maybe writing, could do some writing for the Stern View book or something. But that was a really nice quote from him and obviously he's really enjoying his time at Stern.
• 14:35
  Speaker B: And I was waiting for that last edition because clearly, location, New York City, downtown, et cetera, et cetera, it does present a whole new level of opportunity.
• 14:46
  Speaker A: Yeah. So, Alex, we are going to talk about three candidates this week. I know last week we spent the whole show talking about the Wharton team based discussion. So we're going to get into our candidates. But I just wanted to share with you. We had two schools that published their class profiles and I think we've profiled most of the programs that have reported, but these two are a little bit later to the game here. So both Columbia and Kellogg shared all the stats and figures of their incoming class. So I wanted to just run these by you and get your take. I'll start with Columbia. Columbia has 972 students. Now, mind you, that's across both their August and January intakes. So they are not suddenly bigger than Wharton or Harvard. But it's across these two intakes, they have 972 students. Last year they had 900 students. So a bit of growth there in terms of the size of the student body. They received 7,000, 487 applications. That's up 27% from last year. In terms of the Class itself that they're bringing in 44% women, that's unchanged. 46% international students. That's down 1% from last year. Average work experience five years unchanged. Undergraduate GPA moves up a tick to 3.6. It was 3.5 last year. GMAT also up slightly. 732 versus 730. And their GRE score, which they did not share last year, is 324. That's the average GRE for people coming into this class. So any thoughts on Colombia's stats?
• 16:16
  Speaker B: No. They seem very reasonable for a top program where they sit amongst the M7. I mean, they're very similar stats that we've seen across the board for this incoming class app. Volumes are up. You know, class size in their case is up, which is quite interesting. But, yeah, the quality, which is what we tend to look more at, seems very on target.
• 16:45
  Speaker A: Yeah. And, you know, we always advocate tiering of schools rather than an ordinal ranking. And so arguably, one of the schools that's sort of in a tier with Columbia is Kellogg. And so I'll give you their stats and we're going to see their fairly similar. They have 524 students in this year's incoming class. That's basically unchanged. It was 529 last year. So very similar number of students. They have 50% women. And that's big news. This, I believe, might be the first time that they've actually achieved gender parity. They're up 2%. Last year they were really close. It was 48%. They have 40% international students. That's up 1% from last year. So slightly fewer international students than their peer over at Columbia. And then their students have have average work experience of five years and two months. Again, Columbia was five years, so very similar. Average GMAT score at kellogg is a 733. That's up from 731 last year. And the GRE average is 325. That's actually down one point. It was 326 last year. Their undergraduate GPA is a 3.7, unchanged from last year. So what do you make of these numbers?
• 17:54
  Speaker B: I could just repeat exactly what I said for Colombia, Right? Yeah, totally. Even. Even their average GM and GRE scores are very similar. But like you say, we would qualify both these programs in the same tier.
• 18:06
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 18:07
  Speaker B: So we should, because of that, see very similar statistics. Obviously their class size is smaller than Colombia, but nevertheless a really good, good class profile.
• 18:19
  Speaker A: Yeah, totally. So, one last thing before we talk about our candidates, we Got a review of the show. Someone was kind enough to go onto Apple Podcasts and submit a review. They titled the review, they gave us five stars, and they titled the review informational and encouraging. And they said, love tuning in every Monday. To Alex and Graham, I think you two do an awesome job keeping anxious MBA applicants looped in on the latest and greatest and providing pertinent advice to those who seek it. I've been listening religiously and it's become my comfort podcast during the stressful application interview period. Also, you two are wonderful speakers and your thought processes are easy to follow. Cheers. So that was a terrific review, Alex.
• 19:01
  Speaker B: No, absolutely brilliant. I promise I didn't write that.
• 19:04
  Speaker A: Yeah, I kind of wondered. Yeah, but no, it's really great. I know some of you are listening on Spotify, and I notice we have a five star rating on Spotify, but they don't take reviews, so reviews are really helpful. So if you can leave us one over on Apple Podcasts. Other than that, Alex, it's been a couple of weeks since we got to talk about actual candidates, so I'm going.
• 19:21
  Speaker B: To have to stop you here, Graham.
• 19:23
  Speaker A: All right.
• 19:23
  Speaker B: I'm not ready to kick on.
• 19:25
  Speaker A: You're not?
• 19:25
  Speaker B: Not.
• 19:25
  Speaker A: Why?
• 19:26
  Speaker B: Well, Trump's derailed us, quite frankly, because at the beginning of the podcast, you usually ask me what's going on on Livewire.
• 19:33
  Speaker A: Oh, yes, I'm sorry. Yeah, so, yeah, give us, yeah, give us that update and then we'll get into the candidates.
• 19:38
  Speaker B: Yes. Yeah. So. So, yeah, we're starting to get see more programs release decisions for their Round one. We're still not in the season of what we would call the peak season, but up next week, Michigan, Broad, Insead, Minnesota, Carlson, Ohio State, Fisher are all planning to release their Round one decisions. So it should be good activity. And Columbia sort of has this deadline, November 15, for their interview invites. They've. They rolled out or they've released the majority of their interview invites. There's no doubt. I don't know if they have any additional to come, but there's a November 15th deadline on their site for that. I'm a little bit bemused by what Kellogg is doing because it doesn't seem like they're following the process maybe that they have done in previous years in terms of there's still plenty of folks on Livewire wondering whether they're going to get an interview invite. In years past, pretty much most candidates that applied to Kellogg get an interview invite. So I don't know if they're doing anything different there, Graham, but There's definitely a bit of speculation that their process might be a little bit different.
• 21:01
  Speaker A: Yeah. And I haven't, you know, I actually owe a call to somebody on their admissions team, so I'll try to find out. But yeah, I haven't heard anything like I. In my last conversations with them. I didn't understand anything to be different. But you're right, it's being picked up on Livewire bit. So we'll try to find out. Yeah, thanks for that update. Totally. Yeah, we got derailed and I totally forgot to ask you about that. But yeah, as you pointed out, next month in December, we'll get into what we call the decision weeks. And that's where all those many of the round one decisions come fast and furious. So stay tuned for all that. Are you now ready? Shall we get into our candidates for this week?
• 21:36
  Speaker B: Let's kick on.
• 21:37
  Speaker A: All right, so this is Wiretap's candidate number one. Our first candidate this week has nine schools on the target list. And those schools are Carnegie Mellon, Georgetown, Georgia, Georgia Tech, Kellogg, Chicago, uc, Irvine, UCLA and Vanderbilt. This person's looking to start next fall in the fall of 25. They've been working in fintech and doing some entrepreneurial things as well. Before business school, they're thinking of getting into consulting or maybe tech or entrepreneurship. They have a number of things listed here. They do mention most of the big consulting firms and a couple of tech companies as targets. Their GMAT score is a 720. Their GPA is a 6.18. I believe that's out of 10. It's a different. This candidate's from. They mentioned South Asia, so different scaling with the gpa. They have four years of work experience in total. And. Yeah. Alex, what do you make of this candidacy?
• 22:39
  Speaker B: Well, I think it's a candidate of two halves, essentially. There's some real quality in this profile and there's some areas that clearly are going to potentially raise a red flag. So it's not an easy candidate to sort of distill and so forth. So you've got the 720 GMAT, which is a decent GMAT score. A couple of programs they're targeting, it's going to be 11 little bit lower than the median. But actually for a number of the programs that they're targeting, it's going to be higher. So the GMAT is reasonably decent. The GPA is not. So I'd like to know some mitigating circumstance for that, if they've taken any additional coursework because, you know, a high gmat, low GPA could send the message that they're only going to focus on the academics they're truly interested in or whatever it might be. So they're going to need to deal with that to some extent. It looks to me like they've probably got really good work experience, quite interesting work experience, some innovation etc, etc as well as their outside of work activities. So that part of their profile to me again looks quite decent and so forth. And their targeting strategy seems a little bit odd to me. They've got a couple of programs in the M7 and then the remainder of the programs that they're targeting are sort of in the top 20, top 25. I mean they're good programs but there's a gap there that I think they need to fill with a couple of programs maybe from the top 16 or something like that. But, but yeah, so Graham, it's not. This candidate's not a straightforward candidate I don't think. And I'm a little bit puzzled by the lackluster for one of a better phrase of the undergraduate performance.
• 24:39
  Speaker A: Yeah. And we didn't get, I mean they said, oh that 6.18 translates to like.
• 24:43
  Speaker B: A 2.2, which is not good, not.
• 24:46
  Speaker A: Good on a 4.0scale. So I don't know, you know, maybe they went to a really competitive school and you know, that that result wasn't terrible in some regards when you look at class rank. But they didn't share anything about that. And I agree that with some of the schools which you could call top 20 or 25 type schools, their GMAT's pretty high for those schools and maybe they can overlook the blemish of the GPA given this candidate's interesting work experience. But then as you point out, this is going to be potentially a deal breaker at the very top end of their target range and there's nothing really, they don't have a lot in the middle. So. So yeah, it's just an interesting situation where if they, you like to see like a really killer GMAT score when someone has a low gpa. Right. So. And they don't have that. So you know, will they get into one of these programs, you know, UC Irvine or you know, these schools that are slightly lower ranking, it's certainly possible and I think the test score in those instances will probably be an asset. But like you pointed out, for the very top schools it's going to be a bit of a slog, you know, I don't know. And I wondered why they hadn't, you know, I mean, I don't know if they've taken the test more than once or tried to really hit it out of the park, but that score tells me that maybe they took it before the Focus edition existed. So they're probably not inclined to go and retake what's now kind of a different, slightly different test. But. Yeah, tricky.
• 26:13
  Speaker B: Yeah, it's tricky. And again, maybe they need a couple of programs in that top 16, you know, in terms of their range of schools to target. But yeah. And have they done any additional coursework? Have they done anything to mitigate that lower gpa? Yeah, that's again, as an adcom, I'd be looking at that. And, you know, what are they doing to ADCOM to assure the school that they're going to thrive in the academic environment other than, you know, a fairly decent test score?
• 26:51
  Speaker A: Yeah, agreed. And I think one other piece of advice I would give this candidate is obviously don't translate your gpa. Like, no, I don't think any of the top schools will ask you to do that. Typically they just ask you to, you know, share your transcript and report your grade as on the scale that it was given because it doesn't do them any favors when you see, you know, a 2.2 or something. Right. So they should leave it as it is unless specifically requested. I do want to thank them for sharing their profile and wish them the best of luck. Let's move on, though, and talk about wiretaps. Candidate number two. So our second candidate this week has seven target schools. Those schools are Duke, Emory, Georgia, unc, ut, Austin, uva, and Vanderbilt. This candidate has been in the military before. Business school. They are thinking about pivoting into consulting or maybe even consumer goods after business school. And they mentioned Accenture, McKinsey, Nike, Pepsi, and they also mentioned Boeing. So they, they did indicate maybe an interest in aerospace, too. Their GRE score is a 317. Their GPA is a 3.92. They've had seven years of experience in the military, and they want to land in Charlotte or Atlanta. And they did say they're an army officer, they're a U.S. military Academy graduate, they studied engineering. And they said, I'm worried about GRE scores for target schools casting a wide net right now, but may not take test again due to other circumstances. So what do you make of this, Alex?
• 28:32
  Speaker B: I mean, you made a good point before we came on air. The target programs are basically in, well, as you called it, below the Mason Dixon line. I used to live very much on the Mason Dixon line, actually, when I was in The States, but anyway, below the Mason Dixon line and. And they want to be in Atlanta or. Or Charlotte. Charlotte. That's it, yeah. Yeah. Post mba. So actually their list of target schools is probably quite reasonable in that regard. And quite frankly, I think with a 317 GRE they're probably going to get options because that GPA is extraordinary. It's an engineering GPA from a military academy. So I've got to think that they're wicked smart. Graham, presumably, and hopefully that translated in a strong military career. I don't think we know a whole lot about what they did in the military, but if that's sort of up to par with the quality of that undergrad graduate performance and so forth, I would think that this is the type of candidate that will be highly sought after. So, yeah, Even with the 317 GRE, I would anticipate them getting interview invites even at the top schools on their list, Duke and Darden and so forth. They've also applied to our sponsors. That's absolutely fantastic. But if they did come back with a more reflective GRE score, let me frame it that way. If you've got a 392 engineering degree, I would expect to be seeing a GRE in the mid to late 320s. 330. Right. So with the right prep and the right GRE score, then, yeah, I think this candidate could be targeting the very, very top, which would still give them access to Atlanta and I think Charlotte with a different kind of network. Right. So that's their conundrum. I think it's like, okay, I think they're probably in good shape right now with their target programs, but if they did come back with a more reflective GRE score, it would open up a new set of opportunities.
• 30:56
  Speaker A: Yeah, I agree. And it's interesting you had some dialogue with them and you were saying to them, hey, have you thought about maybe trying to bump that score up if you think there's scope for improvement? In fact, they could even take it after applying and submit a score, just an updated score after the fact, too. And they seemed intrigued by that. But they also said, if offered, would it be a decent idea to look into test waivers? And it's interesting. So it's like, would it be better to apply with a waiver or with a 317 in your mind at some of these schools, assuming some of them do offer waivers, which is the case with this group. Yeah. What would you.
• 31:32
  Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, seeking programs that offer a test waiver, again, Limits your opportunity because you know, many of the top programs don't actually do that. But if these programs do, it might well be, you know, again, if you're presenting a 392 engineering degree from a military academy, that probably gives you good platform to request that waiver. A 317 isn't going to enhance your profile, I guess is the point if you're coming off of a 392 engineering degree.
• 32:06
  Speaker A: Yeah, that's fair. Like you said, it's not consistent with. It's not what you would expect to see. So I, you know, I think obviously 317 may not be so bad at a couple of the schools on their target list where the averages are, you know, down towards 320 or something. But it's still. Yeah, it's not probably the best thing could do.
• 32:24
  Speaker B: Yeah. And it'll be reviewed in the context of the 329two engineering degree. So the schools will have a little bit more tolerance if they'd come in with a 3:2 out history major or something like that. Nothing wrong with our history. But if they'd come in with a liberal arts at a 3:2 or something, then yeah, a 317 GRE would probably raise more red flags than you're coming in with a 392 out of an engineering school.
• 32:51
  Speaker A: Yeah, you never miss an opportunity to mock my undergraduate major.
• 32:55
  Speaker B: But yeah, you did very well, Graham. I know that gives me the opportunity to do that.
• 33:01
  Speaker A: No, I'm just kidding. Yeah, so I think. Yeah, we'll see. I mean you gave them good advice, which is to think about retaking or maybe even retaking and submitting an updated score. Yes. Yeah. I think, you know, if a school.
• 33:12
  Speaker B: Does allow and take a swing, take a swing at Harvard or one or two of those real top programs that they really might have aspirations to attend, even if you're sticking with that gre. Take a swing.
• 33:27
  Speaker A: Yeah, couldn't hurt, that's for sure. So in any event, I want to thank them for posting. Obviously thank them for their service. They didn't tell us much about their service. Maybe we don't have clearance. But you know, again, thanks for sharing the profile. Let's move on though and talk about wiretaps. Candidate number three. So our third candidate this week has got just four schools on the target list and those schools are Columbia, Harvard Business School, Stanford, Stanford and Wharton. They want to start school next fall and they indicate that their pre MBA career consists of real estate development but also a role in business operations and strategy for several construction Tech companies, they want to stay in technology after business school and they may have some entrepreneurial aspirations as well. They indicate that their grade E score was a 331 and their undergraduate GPA is a 3.98 which they earned from a top 25 state school. They've got five years of work experience, currently located in New York, looking to maybe head to the west coast, Seattle, San Francisco or la, but pretty flexible after business school. Now they did specify that they have pretty extensive extracurricular experience including serving a two year church mission and they managed a college prep program for underprivileged students and also helped to run a non profit in Ukraine. So that's this person's background. I'm going to go out on a limb Alex, and guess that maybe they're Mormon and that they did that two year mission which is a feature that we see with Mormon candidates. But I don't know for sure. But what do you make of this candidacy?
• 35:10
  Speaker B: I mean this is an extraordinary candidate quite honestly Graham, I think you've got the numbers, I mean a 398, that's crazy. 331 GRE which is reflective of that 398. They really hit the balance of looks like strong work experience as well as strong impact on communities etc etc outside of work. Their goals, you know, related to housing affordability. The. It all sort of ties back to their experiences to date, et cetera, et cetera. So yeah, this, this candidate's aiming high but I think they should be aiming high and so forth. So I really like it. But it gets back to our prior candidate Graham. You know our prior candidate had a 392 engineering degree. This candidate has a 398. This candidate has a 331 green. Yeah, right. That's back to my point that this, I don't think this 317 jre from our second candidate is going to be fully reflective of what they could be doing. And if they did do that they could be targeting the same type of school that this candidate's targeting. Right. Which is, you know, the top, the very best, which is what the prior candidate effectively could have been targeted with a better, with that better GRE score.
• 36:33
  Speaker A: Yeah, agreed. So yeah, this is an interesting case. I mean I absolutely agree. This candidate that we're currently talking about is really fantastic. Great numbers, interesting experience. Presumably this sounds like they have some specific goals that I'm hoping kind of dovetail with what they've done to date and they have this very top heavy list of top schools, but given the numbers, I think they're right and they should get into one of these. So. Yeah, but I do agree with your point that, that you look through the lens of this test score. Really, it's just interesting how this person's got a number of points on the last candidate that we talked about. And it does make a difference the way that it sort of. The sort of doors that it opens. So in any event. Yeah, but this is a. I'm really interested in, you know, be curious to know more about what they were doing on their mission and this work they did in Ukraine. I mean, it just sounds like someone who would add a lot to the classroom and so hopefully those different elements come out out across their essays and. Yeah, so it'd be a really compelling candidate.
• 37:35
  Speaker B: What's the weakest part of this candidate's profile?
• 37:37
  Speaker A: Graham Boy? I mean, I guess we don't have a ton of data around their work experience and the specific sort of specifics around their goals, so. But honestly, I'm not seeing like any glaring, you know, problems. That's just more. I would.
• 37:55
  Speaker B: I want more info, but I'm with you on that. But if I ask you the same question of our second candidate, not to keep pushing this point, what would your answer be?
• 38:03
  Speaker A: The test score.
• 38:04
  Speaker B: Yeah, exactly.
• 38:05
  Speaker A: So, yeah, here's a good point, quite.
• 38:07
  Speaker B: Frankly, and this is the. You know what candidates need to be aware of. Your weakest aspect of your profile is going to be the most important aspect because that's going to potentially impact where you can target, et cetera, et cetera.
• 38:22
  Speaker A: Yeah, totally.
• 38:23
  Speaker B: So anyway, I've made that point twice, five times in different ways. So I really. You want that second candidate to do something about that gre.
• 38:33
  Speaker A: Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense. So thanks for picking these candidates out. I know we ran a little long this week, but we had a lot to cover. You know, we'd been sort of off the candidate profiles train because of last week's special episode, so it's good to get back into the swing of it. Alex, we'll talk next week and do this all again. Okay, great.
• 38:52
  Speaker B: Best luck, everyone. Stay safe. Take care. There's.