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Jacob Kishere - The Strange Return of Christianity · Mahon McCann

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  SPEAKER_00: We're live.
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  SPEAKER_00: We're live.
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  SPEAKER_01: Good to be here, man.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: In a little while.
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  SPEAKER_00: So maybe we'll just kick off with some reintroductions.
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  Would you like to introduce yourself or can I honor you with an
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  introduction?
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'll go.
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  SPEAKER_01: My name's Mann.
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  SPEAKER_01: I'm a philosophy PhD researcher in Dublin, Ireland.
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  SPEAKER_01: I study the attention economy mostly,
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  SPEAKER_01: kind of like between ethics,
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  SPEAKER_01: cognitive science,
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  SPEAKER_01: digital technology.
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  SPEAKER_01: I write online on Substack,
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  SPEAKER_01: the Wisdom Dojo,
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  and have a YouTube channel as well doing kind of philosophy
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  communication around
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  SPEAKER_01: meaning crisis,
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  SPEAKER_01: meta crisis,
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  SPEAKER_01: and recently,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: the return of Christianity and
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  SPEAKER_01: what I think we'll be talking about today.
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  SPEAKER_01: I recently got baptized as a Catholic.
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  SPEAKER_01: I got dunked.
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  SPEAKER_01: That's a salient point for the conversation.
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  SPEAKER_01: That's a bit about me.
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  SPEAKER_00: Wonderful to have you.
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  SPEAKER_00: You've definitely been a pillar in the whole
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  liminal web meaning crisis exploration lost gosh at least four
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  years we've been
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  we've been peers in this space and I'll definitely watch you
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  kind of like go on the
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  SPEAKER_00: arc like you you definitely weren't
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  ostensibly catholic when we started out so you know you're
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  definitely like this
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  shift that's happening um and the free press this morning
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  published an article
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  called how catholicism got cool um which i thought was timely
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  for our conversation
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  SPEAKER_00: it talks about a boom in catholicism in the u.s in france
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  SPEAKER_00: Baptism's up 45%.
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  In England,
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  Catholics on track to outnumber Anglicans for the first time
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  since the Reformation.
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  And a new pope to Eastern Christian church leaders speaking of
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  a great need to
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  SPEAKER_00: recover the sense of mystery.
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  So talk to me a little bit about why you're converting to
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  Catholicism and how this
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  SPEAKER_00: has emerged out of your broader like meaning search inquiry.
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  SPEAKER_01: Man, yeah, that's the question.
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  Like I,
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  yeah,
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  like as we've spoken about before,
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  so I was raised as an atheist.
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  SPEAKER_01: So I was raised like with no religion,
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  SPEAKER_01: not even with no religion,
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  SPEAKER_01: like in opposition to religion,
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  SPEAKER_01: like a very like anti-theist,
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  SPEAKER_01: kind of just like Freudian,
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  SPEAKER_01: Like religion was just like a delusion or it was like a power structure,
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  SPEAKER_01: like a Marx kind of thing that was like oppressive.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so we had to kind of escape it to become,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: somehow like rational and wise and non-superstitious.
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  And that was really the attitude was like religion was just
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  bullshit and we were
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  SPEAKER_01: going to like outgrow it.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I was very much lived by that for a long time.
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  SPEAKER_01: And until really I studied philosophy as an undergraduate and was like,
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  SPEAKER_01: kind of looked at the atheist philosophers and yeah,
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  I was suffering my own kind of meaning crisis personally and
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  had problems with
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  SPEAKER_01: addiction and stuff going on,
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  like difficult family life and had a lot of problems that I was
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  looking for answers
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  SPEAKER_01: for and just kind of had been on this spiritual journey of like,
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  SPEAKER_01: you mentioned the liminal web of like falling into like,
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  SPEAKER_01: first of all,
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  doing an undergrad in philosophy and then like looking at Jung
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  and then like
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  SPEAKER_01: Peterson and John Berbeke and Paggio and this whole like internet stuff.
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  kind of first,
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  like,
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  IDW,
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  you know,
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  solutions to the meaning crisis,
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  really.
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  SPEAKER_01: I've been following that for years,
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  SPEAKER_01: man,
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  SPEAKER_01: of,
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  SPEAKER_01: like,
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  SPEAKER_01: I never intended to be a Christian or a Catholic or,
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  SPEAKER_01: like,
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  SPEAKER_01: any,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: go that way at all.
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  SPEAKER_01: Like, that was my, the last thing I wanted to do, to be honest.
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  SPEAKER_01: But as I followed the thread of kind of, like,
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  SPEAKER_01: okay, so reductive materialism doesn't work.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's like, okay, classical metaphysics is way better than this.
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  SPEAKER_01: Like Plato and Aristotle makes a lot more sense.
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  SPEAKER_01: And then you're like, but that's also the metaphysics of Christianity.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I was like,
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  Christianity kind of like grounds this and brings it down that
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  we can participate
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  SPEAKER_01: in it.
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  SPEAKER_01: And you're like, I was like, oh no, I'm becoming a Christian.
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  SPEAKER_01: This wasn't supposed to happen.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so,
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  SPEAKER_01: yeah,
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  it just had been going on that journey and then got to a point
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  where I was like,
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  SPEAKER_01: I have to get baptized to be like,
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  SPEAKER_01: to actually take the step to commit to it in a way.
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  SPEAKER_01: I was kind of vague on it for a long while.
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  Probably different for me as well because I was never baptized
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  in anything,
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  SPEAKER_01: if you know what I mean.
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  SPEAKER_01: I didn't have a prior commitment to anything.
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  SPEAKER_01: So in that sense,
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  it was the first time I'd ever participated in an official
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  religion in any sense.
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  SPEAKER_01: So I felt like I needed to take that step to get into it at this point.
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  SPEAKER_01: And that was also just,
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  SPEAKER_01: yeah,
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  happened coincidentally to be the year that a lot of people
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  were doing that.
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  SPEAKER_01: In Ireland,
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  SPEAKER_01: there was 80 other people getting baptized at the same time as me,
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  SPEAKER_01: which was double the amount from the year before.
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  SPEAKER_01: So they had like a 50% increase in the numbers.
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  SPEAKER_01: The church I was part of hadn't gotten adult baptism for 10 years.
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  SPEAKER_01: I was the first one in 10 years.
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  SPEAKER_01: I don't come through.
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  SPEAKER_01: So it definitely seems like something's going on in Ireland, but
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  SPEAKER_00: something's going on is going on.
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  I think we're going to get into a little bit more of what that
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  is during this conversation.
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  SPEAKER_00: But,
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  SPEAKER_00: um,
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  SPEAKER_00: yeah,
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  SPEAKER_00: I just wanted to resonate also with that sense of like this not being,
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  SPEAKER_00: uh,
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  SPEAKER_00: an intended outcome,
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  like certainly not something that I planned for to become so
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  deeply in relationship
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  SPEAKER_00: with Christianity.
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  SPEAKER_00: And, uh,
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  SPEAKER_00: You know,
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  having my whole metaphysical architecture become deeply
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  informed by Christianity,
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  SPEAKER_00: it's sort of something that seems to creep up on us.
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  SPEAKER_00: They had a word in U.S.
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  SPEAKER_00: foreign policy called mission creep,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: from the Vietnam War,
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  where you just do a little and then a little bit more and a
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  little bit more,
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  SPEAKER_00: and next thing you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: you're in a full scale situation.
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  global war and you know i think that's a jesus creep uh
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  something that christ creep
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  that's been going on in the western world for us and and
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  through even things like
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  dia logos of course through plant medicine and psychedelics
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  that's been a massive
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  piece of like reopening people to the deep architecture of
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  meaning um yeah i jump
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  SPEAKER_01: on that in terms of that opening up
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  SPEAKER_01: Like Charles Taylor's book,
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  SPEAKER_01: The Secular Age,
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  SPEAKER_01: he talks about that buffered self and then the poorest self.
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  SPEAKER_01: And for me,
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  SPEAKER_01: probably a lot of my suffering,
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  SPEAKER_01: like troubles of addiction and stuff when I was younger,
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  SPEAKER_01: was like having that buffered self,
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  SPEAKER_01: but having no way of dealing with the poorest self,
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  SPEAKER_01: with this kind of influence of other things on me.
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  SPEAKER_01: that I couldn't control.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so,
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  SPEAKER_01: like,
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  SPEAKER_01: I was very ill-equipped by my culture to actually deal with,
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  SPEAKER_01: like,
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  SPEAKER_01: transpersonal agencies.
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  SPEAKER_01: And,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: however you want to think about that,
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  SPEAKER_01: in a sense,
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  SPEAKER_01: is,
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  SPEAKER_01: like,
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  I think a lot of people are dealing with that more now than
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  they were in the past.
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  SPEAKER_01: Like,
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  SPEAKER_01: with the internet,
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  SPEAKER_01: with so many addictions around,
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  SPEAKER_01: with so many kind of,
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  SPEAKER_01: like,
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  SPEAKER_01: influences and forces on people,
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  SPEAKER_01: people are really going,
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  SPEAKER_01: oh,
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  SPEAKER_01: yeah,
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  SPEAKER_01: this is,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: there seems to be certainly bad influences.
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  SPEAKER_01: Is there good influences at the same time?
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  SPEAKER_01: Which is, like,
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  SPEAKER_01: It's almost,
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  SPEAKER_01: you just can't ignore it anymore in the internet age,
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  SPEAKER_01: like you probably could in the 20th century,
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  SPEAKER_01: I think.
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  SPEAKER_01: I think that's a big part of people waking up to this is like,
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  SPEAKER_01: oh yeah,
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  SPEAKER_01: something bigger is going on.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
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  SPEAKER_00: that's a really interesting point,
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  SPEAKER_00: especially from your research,
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  SPEAKER_00: like the internet creates this catalyst where natural force
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  addiction and like the capacity to compound whatever direction
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  your attention is
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  going in is so much more heightened that like you don't have a
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  choice but to become
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  aware that you have this like relevance realization process
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  happening all the time
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  SPEAKER_01: yeah I'm a psychedelic as well I mean in a sense of like
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
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  when you're changing your consciousness in that way or becoming
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  conscious of your
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  SPEAKER_01: own consciousness,
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  you start to see things are a lot weirder than you were told by
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  like 20th century
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  SPEAKER_01: psychology and biology.
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  SPEAKER_01: And there's a lot more strange things going on in our minds.
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  SPEAKER_01: And yeah,
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  I think the Internet's kind of unleashed that in a sense on
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  people and in ways that
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  SPEAKER_01: have been really bad,
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  but also probably really good because people are kind of
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  thinking about it more in
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  SPEAKER_01: a sense of like what should be able to influence me?
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  SPEAKER_01: What's a good influence?
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  SPEAKER_01: It's a bad influence.
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  SPEAKER_01: Because religion,
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  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
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  the religious worldview or the ancient mind is like totally an
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  influenced mind.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's like a mind that's open to,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: possession,
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  SPEAKER_01: to demons,
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  SPEAKER_01: to angels,
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  SPEAKER_01: like to Holy Spirits,
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  SPEAKER_01: to unholy spirits.
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  SPEAKER_01: Like that's the basis of the ancient worldview.
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  Whereas for the modern world,
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  it's like,
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  oh yeah,
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  we just threw all that out.
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  SPEAKER_01: That doesn't exist.
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  SPEAKER_01: That's not real.
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  SPEAKER_01: We don't need any of this other stuff.
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  But now people are going,
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  oh yeah,
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  we actually probably shouldn't have thrown that out now.
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  SPEAKER_01: There seems to be, you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: I actual,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: spirits that are,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  influencing our lives and we don't have the technology anymore
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  to get the good
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  SPEAKER_01: ones,
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  SPEAKER_01: not the bad ones.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so I think, yeah, that's, that's a big part of it.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: Just want to welcome a comment, Yasin and Eric to the chat.
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  SPEAKER_00: If you have any questions through the conversation, super, super welcome.
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  SPEAKER_00: And have you with him here with us.
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  um yeah i love that idea that it's sort of a seeking for
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  ancient psychotechnology
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  to respond to the invasion of contemporary modern hyper
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  attentional uh technology
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  SPEAKER_00: and i wonder if we can think a little bit about also like
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  What are some of the ways that the architecture of Catholicism
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  is responding to our needs?
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  SPEAKER_00: Because since moving to Oaxaca in South Mexico,
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  SPEAKER_00: I've been going more and more to Catholic churches.
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  I actually find significant blocks and challenges with
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  contemporary Christian
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  SPEAKER_00: rock-style church,
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  SPEAKER_00: which is actually what I grew up in.
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  SPEAKER_00: But I found there is a medicine available for me in the Catholic Mass,
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  especially after having read a passage from Tolkien in his
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  Letters to the Sun.
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  SPEAKER_00: which is quite famous.
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  I don't have it in front of me,
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  but he really is writing his son during the second world war.
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  SPEAKER_00: And he's telling his son,
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  SPEAKER_00: like all of the,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: he says basically like everything you seek,
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  SPEAKER_00: the glory,
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  SPEAKER_00: the wisdom,
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  SPEAKER_00: the beauty,
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  SPEAKER_00: like all of it can be found within this ritual of Eucharist.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so I was like,
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  SPEAKER_00: okay,
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  SPEAKER_00: I might not see all of that yet,
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  SPEAKER_00: but I see that Tolkien is a man beyond my own wisdom.
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  the Lord of the Rings having influenced my entire life and
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  childhood and been like
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  SPEAKER_00: the foundational missus of my life.
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  SPEAKER_00: So, okay, I'm going to like orient towards it in that way.
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  SPEAKER_00: And then like the sense of being part of the body,
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  SPEAKER_00: of the Mexican people in this case,
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  SPEAKER_00: like participating,
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  SPEAKER_00: feeling what I consider to be like a field,
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  SPEAKER_00: a field effect of prayer where it's like,
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  SPEAKER_00: oh,
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  SPEAKER_00: there's the connecting in prayer.
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  SPEAKER_00: And then there's like being in a field of others connecting in prayer.
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  SPEAKER_00: And if I'm porous,
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  SPEAKER_00: as you spoke to,
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  SPEAKER_00: then I can actually like tune in and benefit from that collective field.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yes, man.
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  And there's,
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  I mean,
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  there's so much in there that is resonating with me in terms of
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  it,
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  like,
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  the aesthetics like Tolkien and like that was something that
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  always bothered me
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  about Protestantism with the rejection of art in the sense of
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  like you go into even
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  SPEAKER_01: like St.
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  Peter's Cathedral in London which is this amazing cathedral and
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  there's no there's
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  no art in it like there's no they're having all the like
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  frescoes and like amazing
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  sculptures and things that you find in like Rome they're like
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  excluded from it and
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  SPEAKER_01: it's always kind of like oh why is that
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  that for me is such a part of like the beauty of it really
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  appeals in a sense of
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  SPEAKER_01: like it's,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: it draws you into the story better.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I think also what you pointed out,
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  the real presence in the Eucharist is another thing which is
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  very different than
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  SPEAKER_01: kind of mainline Protestantism.
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  And just mainline different to like the secular world in
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  general,
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  I think.
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  SPEAKER_01: More and more,
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  SPEAKER_01: like the more I read about the Eucharist,
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  I was just listening to Scott Hahn's book on the Catholic Mass
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  earlier and
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  SPEAKER_01: where he talks about the mass in terms of the book of revelation,
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  SPEAKER_01: that the mass is essentially meant to be heaven on earth.
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  Like it's an attempt to take the practices that are in heaven
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  from revelation and
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  SPEAKER_01: then make them something that people can actually participate in.
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  And that's why you eat of the Lord's supper and literally
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  taking his body into your
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  SPEAKER_01: body to become like him,
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  SPEAKER_01: like to take on the covenant.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so that's just like,
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  SPEAKER_01: I mean, the most astounding mystery.
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  SPEAKER_01: I really think it's the,
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  probably the key maybe to resolving the meaning crisis in a
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  sense or getting over
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  SPEAKER_01: like this reductive materialism because it's like,
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  SPEAKER_01: it's not just the bread,
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  SPEAKER_01: like,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know what I mean?
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  SPEAKER_01: He, his body is realer than the bread.
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  SPEAKER_01: The bread is,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: a,
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  like in Aquinas' language is a accidental property or a
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  contingent property.
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  SPEAKER_01: And,
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  SPEAKER_01: So in really years,
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  you're saying the spiritual meaning or the truth is realer than
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  the physical
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  SPEAKER_01: object.
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  And it's a reorientation of reality in the way that we're
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  taught that things most
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  SPEAKER_01: real thing are physical things.
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  SPEAKER_01: But in the Eucharist, it's the other way around.
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  It's it's the moment in that ceremony where the spiritual
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  reality is realer than
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  SPEAKER_01: the physical reality.
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  SPEAKER_01: And and you get to participate in that.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I think, you know, it's a
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  a supernatural drama in a way that people in the secular world
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  just don't have anymore.
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  SPEAKER_01: Like there's nowhere you can't, you can get lots of entertainment.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_01: You can get lots of,
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: delicious meals and things like that,
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_01: but you can't get this,
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_01: the Lord's supper anywhere else.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_01: And,
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_01: and yeah,
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_01: that's like,
• 14:33
  I think some of those reasons are why it's more attractive
• 14:36
  maybe than other
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_01: denominations of Christianity.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_01: Eastern Orthodox is pretty similar.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_01: Like, um,
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_01: I did consider becoming an Eastern Orthodox as well.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_01: I looked into it at the same time.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that was one, it was between Eastern Orthodox or Catholicism really.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um,
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_01: but I,
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_01: yeah,
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if that's of interest to you,
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_01: what the decision-making process there,
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_01: but I think they,
• 14:59
  they probably hold more fascination for people that are looking
• 15:02
  for like the more
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_01: traditional stuff.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, if that makes sense.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: I think, um,
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: Well, in many ways, meaning crisis for me is crisis of disconnection.
• 15:19
  And it's like a crisis of like becoming self-enclosed in
• 15:25
  relation to other people,
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: in relation to society,
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: in relation to the sacred.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, mind.
• 15:32
  And so the counter to that is things that like open that
• 15:38
  closing of mind and like
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: recreate that sort of loop of connectivity.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: I think that the mass,
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_00: for all its limitations as well,
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: like it holds some of the keys to that sense of like,
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: okay, the priest is presencing the peace of Christ.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_00: And then he's saying, the peace of Christ is here among all of you.
• 16:06
  And then he's asking you all to recognize the peace of Christ
• 16:08
  in one another.
• 16:10
  And so this is a very like society making practice,
• 16:14
  like again and again and again.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_00: So you're like,
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: oh,
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: this actually,
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_00: no,
• 16:17
  this is like the code that creates coherence in everything
• 16:23
  that's happening outside
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: of the church as well.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and it's a universal identity where you can participate in.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's not like racially based or ethnically or national based or anything.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_01: It's like Catholic,
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_01: universal church in the sense of everybody is,
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: their identity is in Christ in a sense as followers of Christ.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_01: So that unifies people, like it communes them together, I think.
• 16:53
  And like,
• 16:54
  in the West in general,
• 16:56
  there's increasing tribalism,
• 16:58
  like loss of social cohesion.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_01: People are fracturing into political groups.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_01: People aren't having relationships, not having kids.
• 17:05
  Like a lot of that's probably because we've lost this place
• 17:08
  where we actually,
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: cook up the stew of a relational ground that people participated in.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_01: And that's where it was.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: It was in the church.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: I'm curious now to think about where do you remain skeptical?
• 17:32
  Because you came from such a strong skeptical background and
• 17:36
  there's this wave of
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: revival happening.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: What are the areas that you feel like the church...
• 17:49
  is not yet like not capable of addressing like what are those
• 17:54
  pieces that actually
• 17:55
  need to be brought into a deep transformation refreshing
• 18:00
  imagining at a you know at
• 18:05
  a scale that's fit to the deep drama and depth of change that
• 18:11
  we're experiencing in
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_00: the world
• 18:14
  Yeah,
• 18:15
  well,
• 18:15
  I don't presume to,
• 18:16
  I suppose,
• 18:16
  know exactly what the church needs to be doing.
• 18:18
  But I think I can see in Ireland in terms of there's a real
• 18:22
  aging population thing,
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: like young people aren't as involved as much.
• 18:27
  Like I'd be one of the only people I'd say in my church in this
• 18:30
  age bracket of like
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_01: between,
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_01: kind of younger ages.
• 18:34
  There's some like kids that are forced to go and then there's
• 18:36
  older people.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: But this kind of middle range is still quite, quite lacking.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: I think the problem is a lot of priests are way older.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_01: There's like less priests.
• 18:47
  So like,
• 18:47
  they're not really going to be the communicators,
• 18:49
  I think that reach out to people.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a real need for a kind of,
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_01: um,
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_01: a missionary effort,
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: but maybe not like traditional missionary kind of thing.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like,
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_01: it's not like just going around,
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: just like shoving,
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_01: the gospel in people's faces.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: I think there needs to be real conversations around this as being like,
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_01: look,
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: this is the best account of reality we've ever come up with.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 19:12
  the reductive materialist paradigm hasn't worked that leaves us
• 19:15
  with classical
• 19:16
  metaphysics classical metaphysics is what christianity is built
• 19:20
  on you know find a
• 19:21
  way to work the enlightenment and the scientific revolution to
• 19:24
  assimilate that into
• 19:25
  the broader paradigm because they've been kind of at odds but i
• 19:29
  think science is
• 19:29
  really running out of running out of road in that sense and
• 19:33
  like even in like
• 19:34
  physics biology cognitive science they're all turning against
• 19:37
  materialism and
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_01: physicalism as far as i can tell anyway because it's just limited
• 19:42
  their development so as that kind of goes on it's like yeah
• 19:45
  this will this will be
• 19:47
  a bit more but I think the communication has to be very you
• 19:49
  know that's always the
• 19:51
  difficulty with Christianity like there's intellectual people
• 19:53
  but then there's the
• 19:54
  little old lady on the corner there's you know the kids you
• 19:57
  have to be able to
• 19:57
  communicate to all these people in some sense and so I think
• 20:01
  the challenges now are
• 20:02
  really how do you get people into it to participate in it to
• 20:05
  see the good in it in
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: a way that it can reform society
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think it does.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: Like,
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: I think if people participate in that way,
• 20:16
  it'll help us have the relationships that we need to have a
• 20:18
  coherent society.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_01: And so the challenges are, yeah, institutional.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_01: In Ireland,
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: obviously the abuse,
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_01: the history of abuse has,
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: wrecked the trust in the church for a lot of people.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: The institutional cover-up as well.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like,
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_01: there's a kind of shadowy element of the church,
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_01: obviously,
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: like an institution that wants to support itself.
• 20:39
  you know wants to protect itself more than it wants the truth
• 20:42
  maybe and that's I
• 20:44
  mean I think there's been good changes on that front but like
• 20:47
  that's always going
• 20:47
  to be a thing that's an obstacle as well particularly in
• 20:52
  Ireland I mean people are
• 20:54
  people were not happy about me becoming a Catholic for the most
• 20:57
  part so we're like
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_01: a lot of people are like what the hell man you know
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_01: this is not, these are, this is a bad organization.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, well, you know, it happens to have the truth, unfortunately.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_01: So,
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_01: the institution is,
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_01: is either delivers the truth well or doesn't,
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_01: it might not live up to its own standards,
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_01: but it's still the only one.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah,
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: there's some of the,
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: my current skepticism,
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_01: I suppose,
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_01: the communication,
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: the institution,
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_01: the delivery.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: that was definitely one of my questions as well as like the,
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: well,
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: there's such a heavy load of religious trauma in the world today.
• 21:42
  Um,
• 21:42
  and the Catholic church is,
• 21:46
  is actually the,
• 21:47
  the,
• 21:48
  the center point of that for people.
• 21:51
  Um,
• 21:52
  the combination of,
• 21:54
  of course the,
• 21:55
  the abuse and the coverups,
• 21:57
  but also the,
• 21:59
  culture of shame that seems to have been indoctrinated into
• 22:03
  people through the way
• 22:05
  that confession was conveyed and also like you know bringing
• 22:10
  young children and
• 22:11
  teens into confession very young and then training this like
• 22:15
  orientation towards
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_00: one's own faultedness and sin and a lot of the people who come from
• 22:24
  Catholic backgrounds of older generations in the West or
• 22:27
  current generations in
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_00: places like Latin America,
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: this shame culture is very strong.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: Another piece that's really present for me in my project,
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: Christianity Beyond Itself,
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: is to consider some of these deep fissures,
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_00: these deep historical fissures.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: One of them you've named is Scientogen.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_00: There's also the fissure between paganism and Christianity,
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: which also maps onto the fissure between the colonial and the indigenous.
• 23:02
  And like really deeply interrogating those questions feels like
• 23:08
  quite different.
• 23:10
  quite at the heart of what's required for whatever like this
• 23:13
  evolution in the
• 23:15
  nature of what christianity is to take place and there's all
• 23:19
  these like deep deep
• 23:20
  concerns that have to be addressed through that so part of what
• 23:25
  i've been looking
• 23:26
  for is like where are signs where can where can spaces be held
• 23:32
  in which actually
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_00: those things can start to melt together and produce something new um
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_00: For me,
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_00: I was quite struck with the Shipibo ayahuasca tradition in Peru,
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_00: the Shipibo curaderos,
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: the healers down there.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_00: And it's very small,
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_00: probably only in the thousands,
• 23:54
  but they have integrated Christianity into their cosmovision
• 23:59
  and their metaphysics.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: But they are working in deep,
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: deep devotion and alliance with these plant medicines,
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_00: in order to do healing.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: in the medicine space,
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: in the vision space,
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_00: but they understand,
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_00: how Christ and God,
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: fits into that,
• 24:19
  and they've actually just taken from Christianity and
• 24:23
  integrated it into their own
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_00: tradition.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_00: And then more recently,
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_00: somebody turned me on to John O'Donoghue,
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_00: and I've been reading his book,
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_00: Anemkara,
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_00: which is about the Celtic soul.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_00: And...
• 24:40
  is really struck me that celtic culture contains something
• 24:45
  similar actually celtic
• 24:47
  culture seems to be an integration or synthesis of pagan
• 24:52
  land-based poetic magical
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_00: soul-centered um life with christianity
• 25:05
  kind of where I'm looking for like what can this synthesis look
• 25:10
  like yeah and do
• 25:13
  you mean the synthesis specifically between paganism and
• 25:17
  Christianity in terms of
• 25:20
  like indigenous cultures well I think Christianity was really
• 25:24
  good at doing that as
• 25:25
  far as I'm aware in terms of like assimilating in pagan
• 25:30
  tradition into the
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_01: Christian mythos like
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: Christ as,
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_01: he's quite at odds with a lot of pagan traditions,
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_01: I suppose,
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_01: because he's such a weird god and was a real guy that lived and died.
• 25:45
  You know,
• 25:45
  he's not like the Irish hero,
• 25:47
  Coo Cullen,
• 25:47
  who just could beat everybody up.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_01: He was like a Superman kind of figure.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I don't know.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_01: I hadn't really thought about that because I thought,
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know,
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: there's a lot of neo-paganism,
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_01: but I think paganism is specifically polytheistic
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: I guess there's probably maybe monotheistic paganism.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not sure.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_01: But I do think polytheism is an inferior system than monotheism.
• 26:13
  Like polytheism is intrinsically more chaotic because I tend to
• 26:18
  think of those gods as values.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_01: And once you have multiple different value sets that aren't unified by an
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_01: overarching absolute value,
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_01: like a monotheistic god,
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_01: then you just have a conflict between them.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_01: You have a kind of disintegrated
• 26:32
  goal system that people are going to struggle with and we see
• 26:35
  it in our own society
• 26:36
  like we worship money and power and sex and you know
• 26:41
  entertainment and all of these
• 26:42
  other things like that you know are goods but they're not the
• 26:46
  good and so they
• 26:47
  fight with each other in a sense of like the government will
• 26:50
  fight with social
• 26:51
  media and it's like the you know the beast versus the whore of
• 26:55
  babylon and these
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_01: kind of like you know
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_01: these things are playing out in a sense,
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_01: but they're,
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if paganism in that sense can be,
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_01: it will always have to slot into Christianity if monotheism is superior.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_01: Does that make sense?
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like,
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_01: no,
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_01: I think you can still have,
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_01: in Ireland,
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_01: our Celtic mythology and traditions are still very much alive in a sense,
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: probably more so now than the Christian ones in a lot of places.
• 27:22
  Like,
• 27:22
  people have really reverted to be like,
• 27:25
  oh,
• 27:25
  these are okay,
• 27:26
  these aren't.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_01: Christians so we can still keep these stories,
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_01: but we'll avoid the 1,500 years of Christianity that came with St.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_01: Patrick and ignore that kind of history.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_01: In theory,
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_01: they can be integrated,
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_01: but now at the moment,
• 27:45
  it feels like people are ignoring the Christian ones to try and
• 27:50
  retake the pagan
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_01: ones,
• 27:51
  but I think the pagan ones aren't up to scratch in the way the
• 27:54
  Christian ones are.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_01: just in terms of their coherence or livability.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if that makes sense, but that's my role.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: I think if what you're saying is true,
• 28:10
  then it should be borne out through the process of living it
• 28:14
  and through practices
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_00: like dialogos.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_00: For me, it's so important that we focus on the...
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_00: the mediation aspect of this,
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_00: that's why it's,
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_00: that's why about Christianity beyond itself and not just Christianity.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_00: Like, let's bring it back.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: No, it's like, what is that between Christianity?
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_00: And that in a way is the,
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_00: is the very essence of it is like,
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_00: what,
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_00: how does one hold oneself at the place of encounter?
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I think, I think you're right.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_00: Broadly speaking, I,
• 28:51
  the story of the encounter between Christianity and the various
• 28:58
  other cultures that
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_00: it has mixed with,
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_00: melded with,
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_00: and integrated with has been characterized as one of outright conquest,
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_00: persecution,
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_00: and domination.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_00: And there have definitely been significant incidences of that,
• 29:13
  but to portray that as the entire story of the last 2,000 years
• 29:16
  is really,
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_00: really...
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_00: So our lady of Guadalupe,
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: there's like a beautiful examples of them mixing together,
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_01: like that,
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_01: that aren't adversarial at all.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_01: Like that was,
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_01: really spontaneous that people,
• 29:35
  people saw the love that Christ embodies something that in
• 29:38
  terms of like this in
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: between Christianity,
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: I think IFS is a really interesting,
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_01: internal family systems therapy.
• 29:45
  is really interesting because I think it connects to
• 29:47
  psychedelics and plant
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: medicine as well,
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_01: that it offers a space where you can encounter,
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_01: psychic contents,
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: autonomous kind of agencies,
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_01: and in a way that's like really encountered them.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_01: Like,
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know about going to mass,
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_01: you'll encounter the Holy Spirit,
• 30:03
  but you might not encounter all of these other things that are
• 30:06
  going on and that
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_01: make the Holy Spirit really the Holy Spirit.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I think if you encounter this other stuff,
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_01: it's really unlocked that buffer itself of like,
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_01: oh yeah,
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_01: this isn't,
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_01: I've been living an illusion.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_01: Like my perception is a very small amount of what's actually going on.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: And you learn then to be more open to these things.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_01: For me as like an atheist, like a strong atheist,
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_01: I needed those psychedelic experiences.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_01: I needed those active imagination,
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_01: those transformative diologos practices to get me out of that frame,
• 30:43
  to get rid of it so that I could even participate in the mass
• 30:48
  in a way that was
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_01: authentic.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_01: I couldn't have got to that point without going through that.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think for a lot of modern people, they need that intermediary.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if it has to be any one of those things, but
• 31:01
  I do agree with you that there needs to be some intermediary to
• 31:06
  go from the modern
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_01: mind back into a more ancient mind that can participate in these things.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_00: Does that make sense?
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_00: 100%.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I agree so strongly with that.
• 31:16
  I think we're talking about a shift in the center of self and
• 31:23
  where mind is located
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_00: and the nature of
• 31:26
  of perception itself um and we have like hemorrhaged and lost
• 31:32
  through this
• 31:32
  historical process which in many ways is described in the sort
• 31:37
  of dna of the
• 31:38
  meaning crisis by brendan grand dempsey and john viveki and in
• 31:42
  your own essays like
• 31:43
  there is this lineage that has led us to the state of mind and
• 31:47
  perception we are in
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_00: um
• 31:51
  And that actually then completely limits colors and shapes the
• 31:55
  degree to which we
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_00: can actually access the deep code contained within Christianity.
• 32:03
  And so it's a wonder that we walk into churches and find them
• 32:06
  to be tombs,
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_00: as Nietzsche said,
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_00: because they are tombs to our own perception.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_00: We can't see.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_00: We're looking at Christianity physically.
• 32:16
  and we're completely bereft of the capacity to look through
• 32:19
  Christianity.
• 32:20
  And this is where you need those state-shifting and
• 32:27
  transformative tools in order
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_00: to be able to access those different kinds of perception,
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_00: that embodied perception,
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_00: those more poetic ways of seeing,
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_00: those mythic ways of understanding,
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_00: the symbolism,
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_00: the archetypes.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_00: That's really...
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_00: for me closer to the actual language.
• 32:47
  And like,
• 32:49
  we can't access the essence of the Christ through the
• 32:54
  scientific and rational mind.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_00: Cause it just doesn't, it doesn't, it doesn't function.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't convey.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_00: It can't be grasped or participated in at that, at that level.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_00: It has to be like deep kind of fractal symbolic things.
• 33:12
  participation in the world and something quite mysterious that
• 33:15
  you can then start
• 33:16
  to actually see through like oh man i had this incredible quote
• 33:21
  this morning i
• 33:21
  don't know if i can pull it up um from c.s lewis and he's
• 33:27
  saying okay well he's
• 33:29
  talking about relationships but he says for a quick for a
• 33:32
  christian there are
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_00: strictly speaking no chances for
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_00: A secret master of ceremonies has been at work.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_00: Christ who said to the disciples,
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_00: you have not chosen me,
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_00: but I have chosen you,
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_00: can truly say to every group of Christian friends,
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_00: you have not chosen one another,
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_00: but I have chosen you for one another.
• 33:53
  And so just that first line,
• 33:55
  like for a Christian,
• 33:56
  there are strictly speaking no chances.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_00: This for me is kind of where it's at.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_00: And that understanding of reality predates Christ.
• 34:06
  my engagement with Christianity and is the key to me even
• 34:09
  finding anything of value in it.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_00: Is that a sense of, okay, there's something more going on here.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_00: This reality is much more mysterious than it seems.
• 34:20
  And actually the sense that it's devoid of mystery is the
• 34:24
  delusion that I'm waking up from.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_00: But then how can I get that in a regular basis?
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_00: and not just having massive trips.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_00: What's the ecology of practice?
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_00: And this is where things like the men's work,
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_00: the personalized practice,
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_00: and then,
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_00: of course,
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_00: the prayer and the mass comes in as well.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to pull in this question whilst you...
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_01: Just on that,
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_01: such a good point you made,
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_01: which is I think you can't just go,
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_01: oh yeah,
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_01: I'll just jump out of that frame.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_01: You actually have to break the frame or the frame has to break,
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_01: which looks like a kind of,
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_01: could be a crisis of some sort that you experience.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_01: I think things like trauma,
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_01: becoming completely at odds with your environment,
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_01: nihilism,
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_01: alienation,
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_01: all of these things are actually really catalysts
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_01: for getting over that kind of buffer itself and moving out of it.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_01: And that there's this like web of practices of psychologists,
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_01: of philosophers,
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_01: of different people online that are giving tools to try and,
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_01: plug people in.
• 35:38
  And so I think the machine breaking down is the catalyst for
• 35:41
  people doing that state shift.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I think there's,
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_01: there's a real quest on at the moment to figure out like,
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_01: what's the best way of doing that?
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_01: Like everybody has a different, you know,
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_01: a different way of going about it,
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_01: a different set of psychotechnologies,
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_01: ecology of practices,
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_01: that's really up in the air at the moment,
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_01: I think.
• 36:01
  And,
• 36:02
  you know,
• 36:02
  everybody in the liminal web and that stuff is working on that.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_01: I think out of that will come,
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_01: some sort of program,
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_01: some sort of curriculum of being like,
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_01: yeah,
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_01: you can participate in this.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_01: It'll break the frame.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_01: It'll help you reform the new frame.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_01: And then you'll be, you know, more in alignment with reality.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_01: in a fundamental way.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, I think we're wrestling with that right now.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_01: There isn't going to be a government response on that front.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_01: Just, yeah.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_00: That is the place I'll be looking for a response on these matters.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_00: Existential crisis hotline.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, Sean's question plugs in perfectly here.
• 36:53
  I'd be interested in how the meaning crisis fits into the
• 36:55
  greater web of crisis of
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_00: the metacrisis.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_00: How do you think the meaning into the metacrisis and is shaped by it?
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_00: that's right where I felt like we were already going here is like,
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_00: for me,
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_00: this strange return of Christianity,
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_00: this integration of the deep code,
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_00: the Christic architecture is actually...
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_00: In a way, it's much bigger than Christianity.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_00: And when I think about the period of my upbringing in the 90s,
• 37:28
  there wasn't this sense of what's at stake in me participating
• 37:33
  in religion is
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_00: something like the meta-crisis.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_00: It was more just like,
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_00: well,
• 37:38
  I'd kind of like to have more community or maybe somebody
• 37:41
  underwent a personal
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_00: crisis and they found something in it.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_00: But now there's a sense of, okay...
• 37:48
  collective breakdown institutional breakdown rate of change
• 37:52
  that is just that
• 37:55
  surpasses our capacity to adapt to it and then that that
• 38:00
  condition of metacrisis
• 38:01
  seems to demand this capacity to move in liminality hence the
• 38:08
  liminal web um and
• 38:10
  this connects also very strongly with the massive
• 38:13
  transformation of education that
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_00: that hand
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_00: And you and I have both been,
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_00: in that discourse and thinking about like,
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_00: okay,
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_00: what does this actually look like?
• 38:24
  And there are various forms now emerging in the online sphere
• 38:27
  and in the liminal
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_00: web of like,
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_00: okay,
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_00: institutional education is not preparing us for the world.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's really not like when you think about what are the keys to
• 38:41
  of education what's going to actually prepare me to be a good
• 38:44
  participant first and
• 38:46
  foremost some orientation towards the good the true and the
• 38:49
  beautiful and the taste
• 38:51
  for those things not just like an intellectual idea but like a
• 38:54
  feeling for them and
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_00: then actually like the capacity to learn in new domains like learnability
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_00: adaptability what are the um
• 39:08
  governing orienting capacities that allow you to plug into new
• 39:12
  relationships new
• 39:13
  domains of knowledge and be able to like wrestle and integrate
• 39:17
  and self-transform
• 39:18
  as you need to and i see i see christ as the ultimate liminal
• 39:30
  guide in a way and
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_00: this is true of the metacrisis as much as it's true of
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_00: the medicine journey and the visionary quest and,
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_00: the personal crisis,
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_00: in all of these really extreme disorienting conditions,
• 39:52
  this is precisely where I think the Christ relationship slots
• 39:56
  in and just brings
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_00: this,
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_00: absolute clarifying,
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_00: peace-bearing presence that then can afford you,
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_00: okay,
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_00: it didn't necessarily get rid of the crises at hand.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_00: It didn't like mean,
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_00: okay,
• 40:14
  I connected with Christ and now I don't need to clean up my
• 40:17
  room and clean up my
• 40:19
  life and become the kind of man that can build a family or
• 40:24
  build a community or
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_00: build an educational institution.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_00: No,
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_00: but it did give me the foundation,
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_00: like the base of peace,
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_00: the base of trust,
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_00: the base of faith,
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_00: the base of like,
• 40:36
  refreshed perception and now i can like look out in a way like
• 40:43
  there's a there's
• 40:44
  more agency available to me in that state than if i'm just like
• 40:49
  confused divided
• 40:51
  internally in that buffered separated self and and all of those
• 40:56
  kind of parasitic
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_00: patterns that undermine my capacity so i think this is actually a way of
• 41:04
  thinking about the christian code and and what christ brings
• 41:08
  that is very different
• 41:11
  to how we traditionally thought of like what it means to have a
• 41:13
  conversation about
• 41:14
  religion yeah i mean i i really like jordan hall's take on this
• 41:20
  that he argues that
• 41:21
  the meta crisis is a religious crisis in the sense that and
• 41:25
  even for vacies i mean
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_01: awakening for the meaning crisis
• 41:29
  He goes back to the kind of collapse of the Aristotelian
• 41:32
  Christian worldview that
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_01: was making sense of our lives,
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_01: the sacred canopy that fell.
• 41:38
  And so there's an element that the meta crisis is a religious
• 41:42
  crisis in a sense,
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_01: in the first place.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_01: But the other problem is that it's also now,
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_01: like Jordan Hall called it the end of strategy in a sense,
• 41:52
  but it's like we've gone so far that we can't actually
• 41:55
  strategize our way out of
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_01: this
• 41:57
  Like he points out key examples like the economy becoming
• 42:01
  disconnected from
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_01: morality in a sense.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like as you advance in your economic career,
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_01: it's completely disconnected with becoming more virtuous.
• 42:10
  Actually,
• 42:11
  virtue signaling might get you further than being really
• 42:14
  virtuous.
• 42:15
  So the people who become successful become successful by virtue
• 42:18
  signaling.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_01: They're not actually virtuous.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_01: And then other people copy that.
• 42:22
  And so you have this kind of debasing of the currency of
• 42:27
  people's actual virtue
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_01: from their character.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_01: And so
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_01: I think the internet is built on similar lines,
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_01: like the addictive stuff,
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_01: the basis,
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_01: the currency of dopamine from actual learning,
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_01: which is what it's supposed to be used for.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's the reward for learning.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_01: Instead, you just get the reward without actually learning anything.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_01: So,
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_01: In modernity,
• 42:48
  we've got all these decouplings going on that are really
• 42:51
  leading us to education,
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_01: like you mentioned,
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_01: Jacob.
• 42:54
  If the education system is education for the economy and not to
• 42:58
  become a more
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_01: virtuous person,
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_01: you have another disconnect there.
• 43:01
  And so his argument is that we've lost the human capital that
• 43:05
  we'd even used to
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_01: solve the problems in the first place.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_01: So we can't even... And the culture war is another example of that.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_01: The tribalism makes us stupider.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_01: So if you...
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_01: because we have such big problems.
• 43:19
  And then when we fractionate,
• 43:20
  we actually get worse at solving the problems.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_01: So we have less intelligence in the first place.
• 43:24
  And his argument is like that that's actually gone so far now
• 43:27
  that this just isn't
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_01: going to work.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_01: Like we're not going to be able to solve all these problems.
• 43:32
  The more we try and solve the problems,
• 43:33
  the more we actually cause new problems.
• 43:36
  So his move is like in that state,
• 43:38
  what do you actually do when you can't strategize anymore?
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_01: He's like, what you do, what God tells you to do.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_01: He's like, you listen.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_01: You stop strategizing.
• 43:49
  You stop trying to go,
• 43:49
  well,
• 43:50
  I think I should do this and I think I should do that.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_01: He's like, you get the walkie-talkie out to God.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_01: You get as clear as you can.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_01: You get your instructions and you do it.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: You don't ask questions.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_01: You don't go, oh, I think you should do this.
• 44:04
  So that's what I've been trying to do in terms of trying to
• 44:07
  listen and discern the
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_01: voice,
• 44:11
  the good voice and the bad voice because there's bad voices in
• 44:14
  there as well.
• 44:16
  And that kind of process of discernment and instruction and
• 44:20
  then following it is
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_01: the way out of the meta-crisis.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like, that's the way of life.
• 44:24
  That's the alternative to this,
• 44:26
  like,
• 44:27
  economic,
• 44:28
  you know,
• 44:28
  strategy-based mindset.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_01: I think the meaning crisis,
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_01: the meta-crisis,
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_01: and the return of Christianity and Catholicism,
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_01: they're all tied up together.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_01: There's no way to do that.
• 44:40
  And for me,
• 44:41
  it came to a point where I was like,
• 44:42
  the inevitable end point is like,
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_01: to livery,
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_01: become a Catholic or join Christianity is like,
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_01: that's the way out of the media crisis.
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_01: That's the way out of the media crisis.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like there isn't some alternative.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_01: Like there's not another move available to us.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_00: I resonate with them.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_00: I think, uh, I talk about a sense also that like,
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_00: at least from my standpoint, it's not sufficient.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_00: Like there may be some,
• 45:18
  some priests somewhere in the Catholic church that are feeling
• 45:21
  really good about
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_00: all of this happening.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_00: Like,
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_00: yeah,
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_00: finally,
• 45:23
  Mahan's given up on whatever he was doing and he's come and
• 45:26
  join us doing things.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um,
• 45:29
  like my sense is that there has to be a mutually transformative
• 45:32
  encounter between
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_00: these people who are coming in and the institution as it is,
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_00: because like the Catholic culture or Christian culture writ large doesn't
• 45:44
  necessarily have the tactile language or grammar or conceptual
• 45:50
  understanding of
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_00: meaning crisis or meta crisis or
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_00: all these tools of mediation to actually develop and cultivate mind,
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_00: these philosophical tools as well.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm always thinking about,
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_00: okay,
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_00: this Catholicism,
• 46:06
  this Christianity of the future needs to be in very deep
• 46:10
  relationship with this
• 46:11
  whole set of skills and this pedagogy and this capacity that
• 46:17
  comes with the
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_00: Dialogos and comes with this whole discourse around the Metacrisis.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_00: And then it also needs to be in relation to,
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_00: okay,
• 46:26
  what are tools that afford healing that just attending Mass for
• 46:30
  the last 50 years
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_00: isn't necessarily doing?
• 46:33
  And we kind of know this to be the case because there are so
• 46:37
  many elderly Christian
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_00: parishioners and Catholics,
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_00: particularly,
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_00: I would say,
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_00: who have a stick up their ass.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_00: and very strict in certain sense.
• 46:47
  And that strictness is coming from that trauma culture in which
• 46:52
  the Catholicism
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_00: was,
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_00: completely into intertwined.
• 46:58
  And I also think though,
• 46:59
  that sometimes it's just like people that don't actually get
• 47:02
  it.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know what I mean?
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_01: Like you can do all the performative things,
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_01: and, like, go to Mass and do all this stuff.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_01: But you don't, like, you're not filled with love and mercy and joy.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_01: And, like, that's what it's a religion of.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_01: Like, that's who Christ was.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_01: So, like, that's what, I mean, Bishop Barron said that.
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_01: Like, if you're not filled with joy, you're not a Christian.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you're not actually living it.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_01: Nietzsche made the critique of Christians where it's like,
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_01: if all Christians are redeemed,
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_01: why don't they look more redeemed?
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like, they just go around, like, depressed all the time.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_01: Why don't you look like you're, you know...
• 47:35
  yeah like you've been forgiven you've got absolution and
• 47:38
  everything like uh so i
• 47:40
  think it's easy to participate in the social end of things to
• 47:43
  look good to look
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_01: like you know i'm a i'm a mask i do these things that you know but it's
• 47:47
  performative like you're not changed by it and really it's
• 47:51
  about a transformation
• 47:52
  so unless that transformation takes place you're not really
• 47:54
  doing it i think and
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_01: and the question is so many people haven't been transformed by it
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_01: Probably,
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know,
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_01: maybe it's because the technology isn't working,
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_01: like the mass and the way,
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_01: that.
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_01: But it's been working on me since I've gone back.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_01: So it was kind of a test to be like, does this still work?
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_01: Like I got baptized, I made my communion, my confirmation.
• 48:14
  I've been going to mass,
• 48:16
  doing practices,
• 48:17
  you know,
• 48:18
  and it's been working.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like I'm praying and it's, you know, it's making a difference.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_01: So like for me, the institution doesn't necessarily have to change.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's us that has to change.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like we're the ones that really need to take this seriously.
• 48:30
  And if people start taking it seriously and become transformed
• 48:32
  by it,
• 48:33
  more people will do it.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_01: Because the church is 2,000 years old, man.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's not super nimble.
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's not going to be the most adaptable.
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's actually not adaptable, I would say.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's meant to be kind of solid, essentially.
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_01: So I think the change will come from the internet,
• 48:52
  like educating people and trying out these tools and then
• 48:55
  really just actually
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_01: participating in it.
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_01: I think for me and you,
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_01: like doing D logos and doing these other practices,
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_01: even like meditation and contemplation,
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_01: you just take it more seriously.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_01: When you go there, you're just more involved.
• 49:06
  Like you're more,
• 49:08
  you know,
• 49:08
  you're doing all the things you've learned from the other
• 49:10
  stuff.
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_01: But in that context,
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_01: for somebody who's never done that,
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_01: it's just they're going,
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know what's going on.
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they're not as invested.
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think that's right.
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_00: These new practices and tools,
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_00: new and ancient,
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_00: but in any case,
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_00: they're new to what would be considered showing up to church.
• 49:34
  These things actually create the capacity to access what's
• 49:39
  available through the maths.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_00: But
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_00: Your sense that actually everything that's needed can be found in that,
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_00: that for me is still an open question.
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_00: To what level I hold that to be true.
• 49:59
  Because there is a certain sense in which insofar as I can
• 50:03
  connect with divinity
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_00: through that portal of the mass,
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_00: then yes,
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_00: divinity has everything I need and therefore the mass gets me that.
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_00: But...
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's things about somatic experiencing,
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_00: for example,
• 50:20
  like you can't necessarily get down into the deeper levels of
• 50:25
  psyche and clear
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_00: those blocks and misalignments that are like,
• 50:29
  at the base of your personality unless you have a
• 50:35
  transformative experience or
• 50:36
  healing experience that allows you to go to that depth and my
• 50:39
  feeling is that the
• 50:41
  the catholic mass is more like a it brings that more structured
• 50:46
  like micro dose of
• 50:49
  of the christ let's say you know each week or each day
• 50:54
  depending how much you do it
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_00: but it doesn't really provide that
• 50:59
  or that God bomb,
• 51:04
  something like a holotropic breathwork,
• 51:08
  something like an ayahuasca ceremony.
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_00: These kinds of experiences open up other channels.
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_00: And for me, it's about healing the body of Christ.
• 51:21
  And the church is not nimble,
• 51:24
  but the Christ is nimble and the Christ can show up.
• 51:28
  anywhere there's Christ's dance floor I love that question
• 51:33
  because it's the
• 51:33
  question I'm wrestling with is everything there or does there
• 51:37
  need to be this new
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_01: thing does there need to be something added to us
• 51:41
  And I think my research so far,
• 51:44
  there's definitely different levels of Christianity.
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_01: I was trying to figure that out.
• 51:48
  I heard this comedian say he thinks God's a woman because it
• 51:51
  feels like he's mad at
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_01: him all the time,
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_01: but will never tell him why.
• 51:54
  So it's kind of like,
• 51:57
  your girlfriend's mad or she won't tell you what's going on.
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that happens because you don't know what the normativity is.
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_01: It's like a bad superego.
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's just like, you're not good enough.
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_01: You're not doing enough.
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_01: You need to do more.
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_01: But like,
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_01: when you actually think about what,
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_01: what am I actually supposed to be doing as a,
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_01: as a Christian,
• 52:13
  like a practicing Christian and like the bare minimum of the
• 52:16
  Catholic church is
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_01: like mass every Sunday,
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_01: confession once a year,
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_01: two mandatory days,
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_01: fasting,
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_01: and then financial contributions when you do go to mass.
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_01: That's like, that's it.
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_01: That's the bare minimum package.
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_01: So that's like to be classified as a practicing Catholic.
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_01: But then above that,
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_01: there's what's called the five stones,
• 52:36
  SPEAKER_01: which is you're going to mass,
• 52:39
  SPEAKER_01: you're going to a monthly confession,
• 52:41
  SPEAKER_01: you're praying every day,
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_01: you're fasting weekly,
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_01: so fasting twice a week,
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_01: or at least Wednesdays,
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_01: Fridays,
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_01: and then before mass on Sundays,
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_01: before you take the host.
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_01: And so you're participating on another level there.
• 52:56
  Like if you're praying every day and that could include like
• 52:59
  imaginative prayers,
• 53:00
  SPEAKER_01: like doing a rosary every day.
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I've been doing the rosary a lot.
• 53:03
  SPEAKER_01: And the rosary,
• 53:04
  SPEAKER_01: I think,
• 53:04
  is very psychedelic in terms of like shutting down your monkey
• 53:07
  brain so you can
• 53:08
  access parts of your brain that are normally not there without
• 53:12
  this kind of mantra
• 53:13
  and chanting and saying things like I think that's really what
• 53:16
  that's doing.
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_01: And so there's a question of like,
• 53:19
  SPEAKER_01: if you participate on that level,
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_01: will it have that more transformative effect?
• 53:23
  The problem with a lot of the macro dosing of God bombing is
• 53:25
  that you go to the top
• 53:27
  of the mountain and then you just come back down because you
• 53:29
  just got shot out of a
• 53:30
  SPEAKER_01: rocket ship and you're just like,
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_01: I'm here,
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_01: but then I come back and I'm just back in reality.
• 53:37
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think that's a useful incentive to people to be like,
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_01: yeah,
• 53:41
  SPEAKER_01: I want to be the sage saint and to be able to live there,
• 53:45
  SPEAKER_01: but
• 53:46
  SPEAKER_01: I think the question of how you get there matters as well.
• 53:49
  SPEAKER_01: Like,
• 53:49
  do you get there by fasting and by praying or by taking
• 53:53
  something that will get
• 53:54
  SPEAKER_01: you,
• 53:54
  SPEAKER_01: that will just shoot you up there?
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_01: I think in the long run,
• 53:58
  SPEAKER_01: the alternative method is a much more lasting kind of skill set even,
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_01: or like,
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 54:07
  SPEAKER_01: a more lasting route to the top of the mountain.
• 54:10
  SPEAKER_00: How does that sound?
• 54:11
  SPEAKER_00: Is that, like, does that,
• 54:13
  land with you or is it like a church has psychedelic
• 54:16
  integration in a way um is it
• 54:21
  fun yeah well fast and prayer and those guys i mean the book of
• 54:26
  revelation is like
• 54:27
  most psychedelic thing i've ever read in my life like that guy
• 54:30
  was he was seeing
• 54:31
  SPEAKER_01: into the into the source code of reality like um i i
• 54:36
  but I think that that's the way to get there in the,
• 54:39
  in the Christian sense.
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_01: But like you, that's more than just going to mass on Sunday.
• 54:43
  That's like,
• 54:43
  you gotta be,
• 54:45
  you gotta be living this stuff outside of that.
• 54:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 54:51
  SPEAKER_00: I think,
• 54:53
  SPEAKER_00: oh,
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_00: it brings me to,
• 54:56
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 54:57
  it brings me to my experience of encountering other Christians
• 55:02
  and like seeking to
• 55:03
  SPEAKER_00: like really
• 55:04
  come into a meaningful dialogue with them and,
• 55:06
  you know,
• 55:07
  kind of walk alongside them.
• 55:09
  And there's still a feeling that if I come up inside of the
• 55:23
  architecture of the church,
• 55:25
  SPEAKER_00: If I don't leave the church,
• 55:27
  I go to the youth groups and then I stay in the church and I
• 55:31
  engage through the
• 55:33
  SPEAKER_00: lens of everything can be found through the scripture.
• 55:40
  SPEAKER_00: Those people I still encounter to be, broadly speaking, closed-minded.
• 55:45
  It has an almost fundamental orientation because there's been
• 55:50
  certain things that
• 55:51
  SPEAKER_00: are put in place.
• 55:54
  SPEAKER_00: And then,
• 55:55
  SPEAKER_00: of course,
• 55:55
  outside of those firewalls is either just lack of curiosity
• 56:01
  about what's beyond
• 56:02
  SPEAKER_00: them,
• 56:02
  SPEAKER_00: or they've actually been entrained to think that stuff is dangerous,
• 56:06
  SPEAKER_00: sinful,
• 56:07
  SPEAKER_00: pollutant of what's in here.
• 56:10
  And now we're talking about a dynamic that shows up in Islam
• 56:13
  and many different traditions.
• 56:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like, for me, this is where we get to some really crucial...
• 56:22
  crux point here about the nature of the Christ and the Christ
• 56:27
  that goes out and
• 56:28
  hangs out in the brothels and well with the prostitutes anyway
• 56:32
  not in the brothels
• 56:33
  maybe but in any case that sense of like going to the places
• 56:38
  where the Pharisees
• 56:41
  and the religious authorities are not participating in these
• 56:43
  ways that contravene
• 56:46
  SPEAKER_00: the normative expectations and so for me it's like
• 56:53
  SPEAKER_00: The Christ is going beyond the boundaries of the mind.
• 56:57
  SPEAKER_00: The Christ is going beyond the boundaries of thought.
• 57:02
  SPEAKER_00: And then there's also this question,
• 57:04
  SPEAKER_00: way beyond the scope of today's conversation now,
• 57:07
  but there's this question of the evolutionary property that
• 57:11
  Talihard de Jardin and
• 57:13
  SPEAKER_00: others are pointing to philosophy as well,
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_00: is like,
• 57:19
  SPEAKER_00: is the nature of the Christ also something that's evolving through time?
• 57:23
  And then what are the implications of that for what it means to
• 57:26
  be a Christian and
• 57:27
  SPEAKER_00: to be like,
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_00: to be an evolutionary Christian?
• 57:31
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what does that look like as well?
• 57:34
  SPEAKER_00: So, I know we're hitting up at the hour.
• 57:36
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe that's a good question for next time,
• 57:39
  SPEAKER_00: but I'd love...
• 57:41
  SPEAKER_01: I could do another few,
• 57:41
  SPEAKER_01: yeah,
• 57:42
  SPEAKER_01: another few more minutes.
• 57:44
  SPEAKER_01: We can finish it over, yeah.
• 57:46
  SPEAKER_01: That's an unbelievable point, man.
• 57:48
  SPEAKER_01: I think
• 57:49
  SPEAKER_01: That, yeah, I mean, I hated that when I was younger.
• 57:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like,
• 57:51
  SPEAKER_01: there's such a Christian,
• 57:52
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 57:53
  SPEAKER_01: image of,
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_01: my girlfriend was talking about people in tan pants.
• 57:57
  They're just kind of all being really nice to each other and
• 58:00
  they're not really,
• 58:01
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 58:02
  SPEAKER_01: doing anything.
• 58:02
  SPEAKER_01: Like, it's all just like, you know, kind of performative again.
• 58:07
  And that culture,
• 58:08
  I mean,
• 58:08
  it's a very American thing as well that we see a lot of.
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_01: And the Christian culture.
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I kind of with Paul Kingsnorth on that a bit,
• 58:16
  SPEAKER_01: I do understand where he's coming from that's like,
• 58:19
  I don't think it is that it's not,
• 58:22
  it,
• 58:22
  it isn't just like being part of a group,
• 58:24
  like for sure.
• 58:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's a group killed Christ.
• 58:27
  SPEAKER_01: Like he's, he wasn't, they hated him.
• 58:29
  SPEAKER_01: Like,
• 58:30
  SPEAKER_01: uh,
• 58:31
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 58:31
  there's an element of having to go into the danger and into the
• 58:34
  uncertainty,
• 58:35
  SPEAKER_01: uh,
• 58:35
  SPEAKER_01: that you just can't stay in high and dry,
• 58:38
  SPEAKER_01: you know what I mean?
• 58:38
  SPEAKER_01: In the church.
• 58:40
  SPEAKER_01: And it's probably more like,
• 58:41
  SPEAKER_01: I'm thinking of like the quest for the Holy grail,
• 58:43
  SPEAKER_01: like where the nights go out,
• 58:45
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 58:45
  SPEAKER_01: where the forest looks darkest to them.
• 58:48
  SPEAKER_01: And they have to go on this quest and pursue the grail.
• 58:51
  SPEAKER_01: But then they're also meeting monks.
• 58:52
  SPEAKER_01: They're meeting abbots.
• 58:53
  SPEAKER_01: They're staying in these places.
• 58:55
  SPEAKER_01: They're going to mass.
• 58:56
  SPEAKER_01: They're saying confession.
• 58:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's a religious journey, but it is a religious adventure in a sense.
• 59:02
  It's not like you can't just stay in your mother's basement and
• 59:06
  go to mass every
• 59:07
  SPEAKER_01: week and not take on the religious adventure of your life.
• 59:11
  SPEAKER_01: I think that, yeah, if you ignore that,
• 59:17
  yeah,
• 59:17
  you don't really,
• 59:18
  you just don't get the transformation as well,
• 59:22
  I think.
• 59:22
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe that's been lacking in a sense of like real encouragement.
• 59:26
  SPEAKER_01: But I also just think not everybody's going to take that on.
• 59:28
  Like you're just going to get,
• 59:30
  most people are going to do,
• 59:32
  are just going to go the easy way.
• 59:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't think the way of Christ is the easy way.
• 59:36
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's probably the hardest way possible.
• 59:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like anybody that says it's like naive wish fulfillment,
• 59:43
  SPEAKER_01: it's like nobody would wish for the cross.
• 59:46
  SPEAKER_01: and to be humiliated and tortured and betrayed.
• 59:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's the worst way to go.
• 59:52
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what's promised, essentially.
• 59:56
  SPEAKER_01: But also, an adventurous promise and a resurrection.
• 1:00:00
  SPEAKER_01: So,
• 1:00:01
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:00:02
  SPEAKER_01: it's a bargain,
• 1:00:03
  but maybe we've just been starved of real Christian examples to
• 1:00:06
  an extent.
• 1:00:07
  I think that's why Jordan Peterson is so huge,
• 1:00:10
  even though he's a pretty sketchy Christian.
• 1:00:12
  SPEAKER_01: He didn't seem to be
• 1:00:13
  He was going out there like forthrightly into the danger in a
• 1:00:17
  way that other people
• 1:00:18
  SPEAKER_01: just weren't.
• 1:00:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like he was just putting it all on the line in earnestness.
• 1:00:23
  And that kind of was like,
• 1:00:24
  oh yeah,
• 1:00:25
  that's probably what that should look like.
• 1:00:27
  You know,
• 1:00:28
  if you're a Christian,
• 1:00:29
  you should probably be getting in trouble.
• 1:00:34
  SPEAKER_00: I like that.
• 1:00:37
  SPEAKER_00: I like that a lot.
• 1:00:38
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, beautiful, beautiful bringing in the Knights.
• 1:00:42
  SPEAKER_00: searching for the Holy Grail.
• 1:00:45
  SPEAKER_00: It has that mystery connotation.
• 1:00:48
  It has that connotation also of the feminine and direct
• 1:00:51
  encounter with divinity.
• 1:00:53
  SPEAKER_00: I was thinking also of this book,
• 1:00:57
  SPEAKER_00: John Bunyan,
• 1:00:58
  SPEAKER_00: The Pilgrim's Progress,
• 1:01:01
  SPEAKER_00: which kind of fits the bill of what you're describing.
• 1:01:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's that sense of going out and going forth on a quest, kind of armed...
• 1:01:11
  to some degree,
• 1:01:12
  but very much encountering all of these transformative
• 1:01:15
  challenges.
• 1:01:17
  And this is sort of in line with where I've gotten to with the
• 1:01:20
  Christianity beyond
• 1:01:21
  SPEAKER_00: itself is like,
• 1:01:24
  SPEAKER_00: insofar as there's a body of the church,
• 1:01:26
  SPEAKER_00: there has to be somewhere coded into that,
• 1:01:29
  SPEAKER_00: an understanding that it's necessary to go out of that
• 1:01:34
  SPEAKER_00: And the key about the going out of that for me is that it's both,
• 1:01:38
  SPEAKER_00: you're not just going out of it like,
• 1:01:40
  SPEAKER_00: I've completely disassociated,
• 1:01:43
  SPEAKER_00: fuck the church,
• 1:01:44
  SPEAKER_00: now I'm an atheist,
• 1:01:45
  SPEAKER_00: and now I'm just going and doing a fuck ton of
• 1:01:48
  recreational drugs like that's going out unarmed completely and
• 1:01:53
  then the other
• 1:01:53
  version of it is like i go out but i only go out with my church
• 1:01:57
  group to plant
• 1:01:58
  other churches and do missionary work and this is actually i
• 1:02:03
  think this is part of
• 1:02:03
  the issue is that propagation colonial mindset of like we
• 1:02:08
  already got it we have it
• 1:02:10
  completely down here and we just need to go and spread it to
• 1:02:13
  others and somewhere
• 1:02:15
  SPEAKER_00: in between those is like the genuine
• 1:02:19
  pilgrim's path and the initiatory journey which is like
• 1:02:22
  mutually transformative
• 1:02:24
  encounter and or possibility of death of some kind that then
• 1:02:31
  gives rise to the
• 1:02:32
  possibility of resurrection so no resurrection without death no
• 1:02:35
  death without risk
• 1:02:37
  of letting go of self letting go of ideas letting go of
• 1:02:40
  conceptions about what the
• 1:02:42
  SPEAKER_00: truth is and so on and so forth initiatory who is another
• 1:02:49
  SPEAKER_01: Totally.
• 1:02:49
  SPEAKER_01: And there's never been a better time to do that as a Christian as well.
• 1:02:54
  SPEAKER_01: This guy, Brendan Kilcoyne, he's a priest in Mayo in Ireland.
• 1:02:57
  SPEAKER_01: He's great, man.
• 1:02:58
  SPEAKER_01: I love his talks on YouTube.
• 1:03:01
  SPEAKER_01: And he was like, you're behind enemy lines.
• 1:03:03
  As a Catholic now,
• 1:03:04
  even though there's been some revivals,
• 1:03:07
  a lot of people hate me.
• 1:03:08
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of people don't.
• 1:03:08
  And that's something I felt,
• 1:03:10
  which I'd never,
• 1:03:11
  obviously,
• 1:03:11
  as an atheist,
• 1:03:12
  you can just be like,
• 1:03:13
  SPEAKER_01: you know, whatever.
• 1:03:14
  SPEAKER_01: But going back, people are mad at you.
• 1:03:15
  SPEAKER_01: Like, people are pissed off.
• 1:03:18
  SPEAKER_01: People are like, why, you know, why are you doing this?
• 1:03:20
  SPEAKER_01: And like,
• 1:03:21
  SPEAKER_01: you have to give an account of your faith and you have to be,
• 1:03:25
  SPEAKER_01: you have to be able to defend yourself intellectually,
• 1:03:28
  SPEAKER_01: but also characterologically.
• 1:03:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you're bound to a particular normativity.
• 1:03:33
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you can't fail at that.
• 1:03:35
  SPEAKER_01: And that's scary.
• 1:03:37
  Like,
• 1:03:37
  that's,
• 1:03:38
  you know,
• 1:03:38
  I'm bound to something in a way that I never was as an atheist.
• 1:03:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like, that never...
• 1:03:43
  I've never had a level of responsibility that I have now that I
• 1:03:47
  feel that can be
• 1:03:48
  SPEAKER_01: slightly terrifying,
• 1:03:49
  SPEAKER_01: but I've tried to be like,
• 1:03:50
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:03:51
  SPEAKER_01: figure out what it actually is,
• 1:03:52
  SPEAKER_01: um,
• 1:03:54
  SPEAKER_01: and live it.
• 1:03:54
  SPEAKER_01: But that, that is an adventure.
• 1:03:56
  But as you,
• 1:03:56
  as you pointed out,
• 1:03:57
  it's frightening and it is a,
• 1:03:59
  it's a death of sorts as well.
• 1:04:00
  SPEAKER_01: Like it is,
• 1:04:00
  SPEAKER_01: it's a letting go of your old self that,
• 1:04:03
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:04:03
  SPEAKER_01: didn't have to,
• 1:04:05
  SPEAKER_01: um,
• 1:04:06
  SPEAKER_01: have to abide by these things.
• 1:04:07
  SPEAKER_01: And so I don't know.
• 1:04:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:04:09
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe I,
• 1:04:10
  SPEAKER_01: cradle Catholics don't come to that as easily because it's,
• 1:04:14
  SPEAKER_01: it's so normal or something like it's so just humdrum,
• 1:04:18
  SPEAKER_01: like that they don't really.
• 1:04:20
  And I think a lot of them probably need to stop saying that
• 1:04:23
  people are Catholics or
• 1:04:24
  SPEAKER_01: saying that they're Christians as readily.
• 1:04:26
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's an aspirational identity in a sense.
• 1:04:29
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's like something you try to be.
• 1:04:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's like call no man a Christian until he's dead or something.
• 1:04:37
  SPEAKER_01: It's when you get to that,
• 1:04:39
  SPEAKER_01: Saint Ignatius of Antioch,
• 1:04:40
  SPEAKER_01: uh,
• 1:04:41
  SPEAKER_01: before he was martyred was like,
• 1:04:43
  SPEAKER_01: don't stop me from being eaten by the lions.
• 1:04:45
  SPEAKER_01: Like I want to actually be a Christian.
• 1:04:47
  He was like,
• 1:04:47
  until I'm ground up in the teeth of those beasts,
• 1:04:50
  I can't be the wheat of Christ.
• 1:04:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um,
• 1:04:53
  SPEAKER_01: so like he,
• 1:04:54
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:04:54
  he literally thinks he's not a Christian until he's eaten by
• 1:04:57
  lions for Christ.
• 1:04:59
  SPEAKER_01: Like maybe that needs to be more of the attitude.
• 1:05:02
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's a serious, uh,
• 1:05:05
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe Peterson's right in that way.
• 1:05:06
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody gives out to him for being like, are you a Christian or not?
• 1:05:09
  SPEAKER_01: But maybe we shouldn't be so ready to be like, yeah, I'm a Christian.
• 1:05:15
  SPEAKER_01: You're going to have to live up for that.
• 1:05:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's a pretty tall order to be a Christian.
• 1:05:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 1:05:24
  SPEAKER_00: well,
• 1:05:24
  I think that was the gem of the whole conversation that I was
• 1:05:27
  waiting for for me
• 1:05:28
  SPEAKER_00: because I...
• 1:05:31
  SPEAKER_00: have been holding that tension so,
• 1:05:33
  SPEAKER_00: so close to heart this entire journey and,
• 1:05:37
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 1:05:38
  becoming closer and wrestling with Christianity and then doing
• 1:05:41
  Christianity beyond
• 1:05:42
  SPEAKER_00: itself and finding Christ in the ayahuasca space,
• 1:05:46
  SPEAKER_00: finding myself praying every day and yet still,
• 1:05:50
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 1:05:50
  SPEAKER_00: to say I am a Christian feels like that's not bringing me closer to...
• 1:05:59
  the sacred ground of reality that feels like either some kind
• 1:06:04
  of idolatry of like
• 1:06:07
  SPEAKER_00: putting on this suit.
• 1:06:09
  SPEAKER_00: It feels like an identificational attachment.
• 1:06:12
  It feels like a security of being included inside of and
• 1:06:17
  belonging to the group and
• 1:06:18
  SPEAKER_00: all of the different things.
• 1:06:20
  SPEAKER_00: And as you say, it's, it's like,
• 1:06:27
  SPEAKER_00: The Christ is a mysterious ground of reality.
• 1:06:30
  SPEAKER_00: And becoming the mystic is the path to becoming that.
• 1:06:33
  And I don't think you can actually become the mystic while
• 1:06:37
  still being identified
• 1:06:38
  SPEAKER_00: that,
• 1:06:39
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 1:06:40
  SPEAKER_00: maybe he shows up in Christian God,
• 1:06:42
  SPEAKER_00: but actually identifying with,
• 1:06:43
  SPEAKER_00: I am this,
• 1:06:46
  SPEAKER_00: doesn't bring...
• 1:06:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:06:48
  SPEAKER_00: The... I don't know.
• 1:06:54
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like part of my...
• 1:06:57
  Part of my cross to carry is to hold that tension point for
• 1:07:03
  people and for myself,
• 1:07:04
  SPEAKER_00: obviously,
• 1:07:05
  SPEAKER_00: first and foremost.
• 1:07:06
  SPEAKER_00: But it's like people also know that you can deeply,
• 1:07:10
  deeply wrestle and engage with this architecture of
• 1:07:13
  Christianity without then being
• 1:07:16
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 1:07:16
  SPEAKER_00: oh,
• 1:07:17
  SPEAKER_00: now I am that.
• 1:07:19
  SPEAKER_00: Like, no, I am a multiplicity.
• 1:07:22
  SPEAKER_00: I am more than that, you know?
• 1:07:23
  SPEAKER_00: And the dialogue between those different worlds.
• 1:07:27
  SPEAKER_00: So that was a really interesting point, Mahon.
• 1:07:30
  And I also think,
• 1:07:31
  like,
• 1:07:32
  participating in it is different than thinking about it,
• 1:07:35
  in a way.
• 1:07:35
  SPEAKER_01: Like, a lot of people are like, oh, I am that.
• 1:07:38
  But then they don't go to confession,
• 1:07:40
  or they don't pray every day,
• 1:07:41
  or they don't fast.
• 1:07:42
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like,
• 1:07:43
  SPEAKER_01: if you're not doing those things,
• 1:07:45
  SPEAKER_01: you're imagining in your head that you're doing them,
• 1:07:47
  SPEAKER_01: but you're not actually doing them.
• 1:07:48
  It's like thinking you go to the gym,
• 1:07:50
  but you don't actually train in the gym.
• 1:07:52
  SPEAKER_01: Or you go to the gym and you walk on the stage for five minutes.
• 1:07:56
  SPEAKER_01: Like, it's like, yeah, you're actually just not doing it.
• 1:07:58
  Like,
• 1:07:58
  if you think you are,
• 1:07:59
  but,
• 1:08:00
  you know,
• 1:08:01
  Christianity,
• 1:08:02
  I mean,
• 1:08:02
  what was it,
• 1:08:02
  G.K.
• 1:08:03
  SPEAKER_01: Chesterton said?
• 1:08:03
  SPEAKER_01: Christianity is very, it has never been found lacking.
• 1:08:07
  SPEAKER_01: Like,
• 1:08:08
  it's usually found too difficult because when you try to put on
• 1:08:11
  the weight,
• 1:08:11
  SPEAKER_01: you're like,
• 1:08:11
  SPEAKER_01: whoa,
• 1:08:12
  SPEAKER_01: this is a lot.
• 1:08:14
  SPEAKER_01: So like,
• 1:08:15
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:08:15
  SPEAKER_01: trying to get yourself like in a gym,
• 1:08:17
  SPEAKER_01: like building up your weight,
• 1:08:19
  SPEAKER_01: lift a little bit more.
• 1:08:20
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:08:20
  SPEAKER_01: Do I pray once a week?
• 1:08:21
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:08:21
  SPEAKER_01: Can I pray every day then?
• 1:08:23
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:08:23
  SPEAKER_01: I'll go to confession.
• 1:08:24
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:08:25
  SPEAKER_01: I can go once a year.
• 1:08:25
  SPEAKER_01: Can I go every month?
• 1:08:26
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe.
• 1:08:27
  SPEAKER_01: Could I go every three months?
• 1:08:28
  Like,
• 1:08:29
  you know,
• 1:08:30
  taking that attitude of like trying to grow spiritually will
• 1:08:33
  have results.
• 1:08:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like it will pay off.
• 1:08:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's not, it's not fake.
• 1:08:36
  SPEAKER_01: Like it, it, it will be massive.
• 1:08:39
  SPEAKER_01: And the resistance that you feel to it,
• 1:08:41
  SPEAKER_01: is the enemy.
• 1:08:42
  SPEAKER_01: That is the resistance in your head that goes, oh, that doesn't matter.
• 1:08:47
  SPEAKER_01: That's not important.
• 1:08:48
  SPEAKER_01: That's just stupid.
• 1:08:49
  SPEAKER_01: That's the thing that holds you back from becoming who you could be.
• 1:08:53
  SPEAKER_01: That's the obstacle.
• 1:08:54
  SPEAKER_01: And so for me, it's paid.
• 1:08:56
  SPEAKER_01: Every step I've taken has been rewarded.
• 1:08:59
  SPEAKER_01: And so I have complete confidence, really, whereas I didn't before.
• 1:09:05
  SPEAKER_01: Before, I was very skeptical.
• 1:09:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:09:09
  And also I want to add the nuance that sometimes there's going
• 1:09:15
  to be resistances in
• 1:09:17
  SPEAKER_00: relation to things that really need to be opened up and wrestled out.
• 1:09:21
  SPEAKER_00: Like if I feel resistant,
• 1:09:22
  SPEAKER_00: for example,
• 1:09:23
  SPEAKER_00: in the creed,
• 1:09:24
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:09:25
  SPEAKER_00: I'm on board for like 75% of the creed.
• 1:09:28
  When I get lying about like I,
• 1:09:31
  you know,
• 1:09:32
  I place my fealty in the Catholic church.
• 1:09:35
  SPEAKER_00: I do not.
• 1:09:36
  SPEAKER_00: I cannot, you know.
• 1:09:38
  say that I yeah well I'm all in but I can understand this but
• 1:09:47
  yeah I mean in front
• 1:09:51
  of making my fealty to this catholic empire of you know so yeah
• 1:10:01
  anyway I digress I
• 1:10:03
  SPEAKER_00: digress somewhat we're gonna have to run unfortunately Jacob because I'm
• 1:10:09
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, this is a great wrap-up.
• 1:10:13
  SPEAKER_00: This has been excellent to continue.
• 1:10:16
  I guess we've done two now,
• 1:10:17
  so it's officially a series on The Strange Return of
• 1:10:20
  Christianity.
• 1:10:21
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah,
• 1:10:22
  I'm looking forward to the next dialogues and hearing more
• 1:10:26
  about how your journey
• 1:10:28
  SPEAKER_00: unfolds.
• 1:10:31
  SPEAKER_01: Tell me, man.
• 1:10:31
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 1:10:32
  SPEAKER_01: I really appreciate the opportunity.
• 1:10:33
  SPEAKER_01: It's always great to chat.
• 1:10:36
  SPEAKER_00: Great to be with you, Mahan.
• 1:10:38
  SPEAKER_00: Peace until next time.
• 1:10:39
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for everyone listening.
• 1:10:40
  SPEAKER_01: Bye-bye.