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Igniting Your Thriller with Raymond Paul Johnson · WriterCon

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This week on the writer Con podcast Tough Never Quits. Welcome to writer Con,
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a gathering place for writers to share their knowledge about writing and the writing
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world. Your hosts are William Bernhardt, best selling novelist and author of the
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Red Sneaker books on writing, and Laura Bernhardt, Award winning author of the
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want ln Files book series. Thank you, Jesse Ulrich, and Hello writers?
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Or should it be more like? Hey there? Writers? I'm never
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sure about the energy level I should be bringing to this opening. I mean,
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should I be shouting because I'm excited and enthusiastic Now I look at myself
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and I'm not look like the joker or something. Or should I be more
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chill because you know, I'm a writer and writers are cool. It's just
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finding the right tone. I don't know, Laura, what do you think?
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I think? Whatever you do, you nail it. Oh and now
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you know why I married her, But clearly I should have gone to Jesse
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first. Jesse, what do you think? Listen? Podcasts are like an
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intimate sharing sort of situation, so you should you should have the energy of
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like a fireside chat, like a nice cushy bloaf at a fancy restaurant.
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That's the tone. Oh I like that? Do that one? You're like
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that one? Good? Yes, Well, as we record this, we've
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recently experienced presidential debates and the only thing I learned is that apparently energy is
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everything. So I wanted to bring lots of energy. But maybe I wanted
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to bring energy this morning to the pickleball court too. But that didn't work
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out so well, I needed more coffee. It came along, you know,
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we woke up as we started exercising. All right, now I'm going
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to practice my cool voice. Our interview today is with Raymond Paul Johnson,
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who is a prominent trial attorney of many years who has now turned his hand
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to writing. It's a legal thriller and it's a page turner. It's called
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Conspiracy Ignited. We'll be talking to him about that and much more. But
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first the news. First big news story, Barnes and Noble has purchased the
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Tatter Tattered Cover bookstore, the chain, the original and the satellite bookstores.
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Many of you will know what I'm talking about when I mentioned Tattered Cover.
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We live in Oklahoma and they're in Colorado, but it's close enough. They
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have been one of the best known, if not the best known indie bookstore
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for decades. In fact, trivia moment Laura, my very first ever out
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of town like on the road book tour book signing for Perfect Justice, my
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first hardcover This is like ninety four or something. I'm dating myself, but
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anyway, it was at the Tattered Cover bookstore in Denver, and because it
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was January, there was of course a huge snowstorm. I didn't even want
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to go. When my escort showed up, and I mean, it's a
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blizzard, I was saying, can we really make it? And she said,
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oh, yeah, we do this all the time. Will be So
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I got to the bookstore. Exactly one person showed up in this blizzard,
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and she only came because I knew her in college, and so she showed
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up to say, but she did buy a book, and they taught me
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how to autograph books properly, and we had a fun night off. Not
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really the best snowstorm, But that wasn't really the news aspect of bringing up
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Tattered Cover. The problem is that this long and revered bookstore has had a
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tough tough couple of years. When I was there way back then, Joyce
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Mescus, who was the original owner and did it for many many years,
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was still there, but in twenty twenty she sold it to new owners.
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And that's why you read about Tattered Cover becoming the largest black owned bookstore in
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the United States, which then led to controversy because they decided to quote remain
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neutral end quote on black lives matter, and then last year they filed for
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bankruptcy. Well, now they've been purchased by Barnes and Noble, and who
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five years ago would have thought Barnes and Noble would be buying anything that says
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something right in and of itself. The store and satellites will continue to operate
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under the Tattered Cover name, and Barnes and Noble anticipates it'll run pretty much
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as it did before. This actually makes a little bit more sense than it
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might seem at first, because, as people who follow this podcast already know,
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Barnes and Noble is now led by James Daunt, a fellow that the
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owners brought over from England where he saved the Waterstone Book Chain bookstore chain,
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and part of what he did there was actually buying multiple independent bookstores and running
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them under the same names, but you know, transforming them from risky money
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losing businesses to flourishing ones. Anyway, Laura, what's your take on this?
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This is good news or bad I never like to see a bookstore go
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out of business, so I'm pleased that they picked it up and it can
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continue to operate as it did, especially since you have that little tie to
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it. I'm happy to see that opportunity for a brick and mortar store to
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remain open, both for authors and for readers. People can just get and
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I like hearing that it's just going to be kind of business as usual,
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is going to keep moving forward with it. It apparently is a business model
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that's worked before. I hope it can keep working here. Well. Part
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of what Barnes and Noble has been doing, I mean, since Dawn took
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over, has in part been letting individual bookstores have more control about what's which,
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about what they're going to put up front to appeal to their local readers.
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And that's what Tattered Cover has been doing all along. I don't know,
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Jesse, what do you think you're in Tulsa. There's already two Barnes
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and Nobles plus at Books a Million. Would you shop at this Tattered Cover,
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which is secretly a Barnes and Noble. Yeah, I mean I think
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I don't care necessarily who owns a company that already has its own branding.
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If they if they're buying that thing, is there by anything in leaving it
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be, then I'm fine with it. Again, like it's one of those
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things where like better than bankruptcy. Yeah, like where we had we had
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we had too many bookstores to be able to stay sort of economically viable,
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and now like they got rid of too many of them, and now it's
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like we actually need a couple more bookstores. So instead of like buying new
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land having to construct new uh you know, new stores, you buy a
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company that already exists and just let them just run it better probably, right
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a background standpoint, leave it be. I think it's great, does make
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sense. It's already a bookstore, right, Yeah, it's already a bookstore.
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Okay. New story number two, This is about Author's Equity. They've
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announced their first ten titles. Again. Listeners of the podcast will remember when
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we announced the formation of Authors Equity, which is, bottom line, a
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small group of veterans of the traditional New York publishing industry coming together to form
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their own publishing company and now they've announced what their first titles are going to
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be, and many are being written by known quantities, you know, previously
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published in New York authors James Fray controversial, probably the best known one.
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And here's something that I also found interesting. Not only does it announce the
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new titles and authors, but announces what editor has been assigned to each of
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them, which doesn't normally happen. Some of them are interesting. I don't
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know, maybe I'm being rude. I don't think any of them sound breathtakingly
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exciting, Like I didn't read the bio and think that's going to hit number
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one. I did think the list was very New York and in both names
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and topics. So Jesse, are these people really doing anything innovative or are
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they just gonna make the Big five the Big six? I mean, I
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guess it's how you view like how they chose which books to do, and
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you know, are they doing it different than the Big five? Are they
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just doing it this same and calling themselves something different? So I guess we'll
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have to wait and see. But they're doing less, you know, if
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they've got ten books for the next season even but it's probably more like the
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next half year or so. Then that's way less books than you're going to
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see coming out of Kinmin Random House. So maybe that'll give them a chance
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to focus more. I'm not sure that necessarily means they're going to sell better.
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I don't know, Laura. I heard you respond when I mentioned that
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the editorial assignments were being announced. What do you think about that? That's
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so different? And I'm sitting here thinking that I feel like, do we
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think they're doing that to add that level of credibility saying, look, we've
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got editors devoted to these projects, good editors. I think from the editor's
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standpoint, it puts a little bit of stress on you, the pressure to
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do a really good job. On the flip side of that, I've I
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edited some books where they go on to win awards or I see them perform
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really well, and I think, oh, I wish everyone knew that I
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was involved with that book. Yeah. Yeah, I helped craft it into
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the book that it is today that is getting great reviews and winning awards and
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doing well. So fixed feelings. I think having that announced up front,
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I would then feel pressure. I would worry that I wasn't living up to
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the challenge. But on the back end of it when it does well,
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it would be kind of nice to have that recognition. It did make me
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wonder why we don't include that, like on the maybe reversa page where we
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put all the copyright. Yeah, so you know, next week we're interviewing
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a guy who writes for comic books, among other things. Comic books always
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identify the editor of the story, and of course if you've been to a
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movie and sat through the roughly eight minutes of credits, they identify everybody.
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So you know, I think this is not a bad idea actually, and
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mighty even for smaller publishers. Had you know, I'd lend credibility to the
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work if we saw, yes, they did in fact, and maybe editors
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would be more careful. I don't know if they knew their name was going
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to be on it. But interesting choice. I'm excited to see where it
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goes too. All right, Jesse, let's hear that interview music and talk
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to Raymond Paul Johnson. Raymond Paul Johnson, welcome to the podcast. Well,
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thank you, Bill, thank you all right. Traditionally, and you're
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coming to us live from a LA right. That's that I really appreciate you
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taking time out from the fund Lies interview. It's quite an experience. Anyone
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who hasn't should come because you get thousands and thousands of book lovers running around
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the sandial. Amazing. Exactly something something not in a while. Okay,
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traditional first question, If you could offer writers one piece of advice, what
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would it be? I think it would probably be one of the sub themes
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of my book, Conspiracy United, and in a few words, the two
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main characters, whenever they get into trouble, remind themselves of their saying that
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they developed over the years of friendship. And that's tough, never quits and
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tough equits. Yeah, and for writingespecially because none of us just sit and
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well I shouldn't say none. Maybe James Lee Burke does, but or Nelson
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de Mill, but most of us do not sit and always have the love
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flowing, you know, And you get some tough points and you got to
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go, I go take some coffee and I come back and do it again.
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Yeah, that sounds good. Well, tell us more about your book,
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Conspiracy Ignited. What's that about. Well, it's a legal thriller,
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although pre release reviews have called it an actual adventure thriller. Actually, someone
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said it was a political thriller, which I never thought of it as such.
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But what it's about is a lawyer who happens to be a pilot,
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and he has a practice. And what's different about this lawyer than most lawyers
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and most legal thrillers is he does civil litigation. He's what they call a
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trial attorney, a trial lawyer. You know, in most books, they're
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either criminal lawyers or corporate lawyers and running around like the firm they run.
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But this is a civil litigator. And I think what I would say is
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different about this book. I wanted them to be very real. So I
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really wanted to introduce people to the life of a civil trial attorney in America
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because I didn't think there's much written about it, not in the way of
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fiction. So yeah, and he's going about his cases. He flies all
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up and down the West Coast to do depositions and things, and then all
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of a sudden, all help are excluse, and in fact, all of
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a sudden, the first first sentence, first paragraph of the book, all
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help excludes and he doesn't know it, but there's a secret society that's trying
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to take over The third wing of our government trying to take over judges and
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justices and control the courtrooms. The idea being that if you can control the
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courtrooms, you can first you can make a lot of money. Secondly,
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you get real control, like we see in the headlines today with decisions that
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are made at all levels of the judiciary. Yeah, so ask what everybody
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else is thinking. Does this relate to current contemporary real world events in any
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way? Yes, but not immediate. You've got to remember I'm traditionally published,
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so this went for actually in the final two years ago. Took two
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years from final to get to it. And by the way, my publishers,
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I got to show this because this is the cover. Can you see
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that? That was done by my publisher, the cover design person. And
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the minute I saw it, I said, you've got it. We don't
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have to sometimes I have to go through twenty five of these, I said,
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not that The best feeling when you just open it up and you're like,
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ah, they got it, Pam, you know, and uh so
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yeah. And and the why the reason it's so perfect is because again it's
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the Ravens Society. They're cabal basically a terrorist cabal. Uh. Actually part
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paramilitary too, and uh, she's got the courthouse and then she's got this
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ravens coming down. And of course the big secret in the book I'll tell
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everybody now is a group of ravens is called a conspiracy. Wonderful. So
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yeah, so it all came together really nicely. Yeah, very interesting.
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So you did so you did weave in I guess some current events. But
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I'm also hearing you talk about your your protagonist being a pilot and lawyer.
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So how did your time as a combat pilot and an attorney influence your writing?
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Did you did you use a lot or did you just kind of weave
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in some experiences? How did that come about? Well, to answer the
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question directly, we lawyers should do that, you know, we should answer
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the question directly or our witnesses. That's true. I mean, you know,
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you teach by example. No, almost every scene in the book,
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every scene, certainly every major scene, is based on a compositive things.
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I either experienced a witness in my life and for instance, I spent six
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months with the CIA in a combat situation. And this pilot his name is
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Eric Rich by the way, that's the name of the lawyer protagonist, and
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he also spent that time, and so when he gets in real trouble in
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the book, he calls on his friends at the CIA and that helps for
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a while, but you know they good times don't flow forever, and yeah,
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or Ericas have some problems, including the CIA bail on them, so
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then he's left alone with his Well, he has a small law firm,
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had some good friends, and they basically left the loan against this secret society
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that they only know about and they can't tell other people for reasons I can't
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say right now. But now you've been a trial lawyer for like thirty five
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years or more, I should warn you up front. I am a lawyer
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as well, although I haven't practiced in about thirty five years, and I
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also have written legal thrillers. This book has a lot to say about the
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legal system, some of it pretty dark. Can you talk more about that?
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Yeah, I again, I wanted to be real writing this book.
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I wanted it to be real because so many legal thrillers I think are not,
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and so I really want to do the good, the bad, and
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the ugly of civil litigation and judges and even the jury system. And throughout
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the book I speak to that through the characters of course, And yeah,
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I mean an example being once in a while you're run into a judge that
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just has her or his mind made up, and oh my god. For
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a trial attorney's point of view, it really was the only thing that angered
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me in more than I've been practicing now more than thirty five years in trial
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court soul over the country, and it's just when you run into a judge
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like that, it's like you might as well just, you know, tell
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your client, we got to go on appeal. We'll be on time.
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And that takes two or three years sometimes, so it's not good news.
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But yeah, but you know, on the other hand, what I I
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try to point out in the book is there are some judges that are just
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sent from God. I mean they you know, they don't have their mind
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made up. They take everything based on the evidence and facts, and they
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make really really good decisions. And sure, that's like being in heaven.
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When that happens to you, do you have trouble juggling both careers because you're
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still practicing law right and now writing and probably working on another book after this
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one, So how do you handle that? Okay, that's that's kind of
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interesting. I tried to write this novel while I was practicing, and I
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think, you know what that means. That means I'm writing this thing on
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at airports, on airplanes, as I'm going to depositions in different states,
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in hotel rooms in between other things. And so all I had at the
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end of a year and a half of doing that was fragments pieces. I
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didn't have to ask anybody. I knew it's going nowhere, And so long
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came COVID, and COVID was an opportunity. So I cranked back on my
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practice. Boy, did I have a crank back on it to the point
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where today I really because I am writing full time now. I teach at
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the University of sun California. I teach, Yeah, I teach law,
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product liability, aviation law, and aviation safety. Uh. And then I
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consult on cases around the nation. Because that doesn't take everything out of me.
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I want to put everything in the writing and several careers. Really yeah,
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but I've done that all my life. I you know, do I
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get bored easy? No. I tell people I have trouble keeping a job.
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Yeah, but I just got a roll with it. But I enjoy
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that. I enjoy having you know, various things that I can just focus
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on and then focus here. And of course the trouble the juggling is sometimes
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you can't focus focus, and that's what was the problem until I crank back
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the practice to the point where I could write really full time. Now I
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know you handled. This is in your press release, so I assume it's
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okay to bring up. You handled a landmark jury trial against Toyota based on
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the four wheel drive pickups alleged propensity to roll over. And actually the verdict
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you got was the first of its kind in the nation. Can you talk
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about that? Sure? Sure that it was a great case. I mean
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not because I was on it. I just had great facts. And the
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bad part about it was it was in Toyota's hometown. It was the torrent
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Superior Courthouse, and at that time Toyota's in Texas now, but then they
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were in Torrance, California, So you know, I mean it was like
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I thought I was going to get hometown very badly, and yeah I did.
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And the other thing was it was the first of its type the case
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in the nation. There had been some I don't know, you have to
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go back aways, but the sixty minutes had done an article on the Jeep
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CJ six and CJ seven about how they ten if they get sideways, they
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just roll over them because they have high centers of gravity. And I saw
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the same thing with the four wheel drive pickups that were being marketed because they
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wanted it to look like a CJ seven, so had what did they do?
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They raised it up the high center of gravity they were rolling. And
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so when the case came along, I think, like ten really good lawyers
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passed on it, and I said, no, no, no, this
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is I see, this is something that will set a standard. And it
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did. I mean today, in fact, they changed the industry. Today
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we don't have many of those types of vehicles. We have what we call
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crossover vehicles, the lower center of gravity. They still look like sports utility
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vehicles, but they are safe. If they get sideways, they just skip
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to stop rather than roll. So yeah, as usual, despite all the
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grief, lawyers get, in fact made the world a better, safer place.
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Right. That's awesome, right, And I try to and that's the
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I try to have the book talk to that, in other words, through
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the characters. I mean, there's no lecturing in it because nobody likes to
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hear lectures, but through the characters, I speak to that and the fact
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that you can change the world. And in fact, what happens here is
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he does stop the world from going way downhill on non democracy. That reminds
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me of something else, And Laura, I apologize. I'm going to geek
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out on one more legal question, then I'll let you talk about writing for
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it. But I'm finding it fascinating, so you go rune it. I
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noticed when I got the book a little in advance, I haven't finished it.
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I apologize, but I love what I've read, and what I really
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admired was the way you write about because I encounter this problem too. When
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you've got to at least I don't want to say superficially, but in a
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thin way. You've got to explain some legal concept so the plot makes sense.
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But you're writing to mostly non lawyers, and we want them to understand
25:32
it without getting boring. That's a tough and turning it into like a law
25:37
textbook. That's a tough type rope to walk. But you do that very
25:40
well. That's your Yeah. Well, the approaches, first of all,
25:45
don't lecture. Secondly, do it in an entertaining way. In other words,
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there is we will get into the details, but there's a thing called
25:55
the silent conflict, which is the thing about law and I needed to explain
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it. And I'm assuming most of my readers are non lawyers. So I
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did it conversationally and in a setting that was interesting. They were on a
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boat, they were having coffee together. And when I thought about that,
26:12
doing it from a conversation viewpoint, then it all came together. Because even
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lawyers, when we start talking to one another for coffee, we don't sit
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there and speak Latin to each other, you know, we speak real speak.
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And so that's what I have. I have the characters speaking real you
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know. I got to say. There was a pre release review of one
26:33
of them by an editor in chief of a magazine and she's a try lawyer
26:38
herself, and she said something that really was great, I thought, because
26:45
she captured what I was trying to do. She said, Johnson's bad guys
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are really in italics bad, and his good guys are really real. And
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I know Sharon got it. That's what I was trying to do. It's
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very nice. Can you tell us a little bit about your path to publication?
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Oh, okay, it's maybe a little different. Are you ready for
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a little different? Yeah? Always, Okay, here we go. Okay.
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So I had the fragments, then I crank back my practice, and
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now I'm writing. I have my manuscript in February of twenty twenty two.
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The manuscript is final. And while I'm doing that, I'm looking at the
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publishing industry because the only thing I'd published is nonfiction. I did about fifty
27:37
technical articles and one big treatise, but it was all nonfiction. But I
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thought, you know, I know publishers and editors in the nonfiction world.
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When I'm ready, I'm just going to call them and say, hey,
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do you have any friends in the fiction world. And here's here's where I
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slammed into the wall. They did, and the non fiction people don't talk
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to the fiction people. People don't even know who the non fictional real law.
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So I was at square one and I started looking at querying, which
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is to a non writer, that whole process is crazy. Everyone. It's
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a very process. I really couldn't believe it existed, the truth, but
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then I realized it did exist. So I threw out a dozen query letters
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and got nothing back. I mean I didn't even get a rejection, and
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I was ghosted. So I went I said, you know what, Ray,
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you got to go back to school. I went back to what more
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like writers con you know. I went to writers' conventions. I went to
28:45
webinars through writers Digest, University and other groups. And the International Thriller Writers
28:52
were really great. They have nice classes, good classes. So I'm starting
28:56
to get that. And then James Lee Burke, who I think is the
29:00
master crime fiction writer alive today, James Lieberg was interviewed and I was on
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the webinar listening to the interview, and they said, James, have you
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ever been rejected? And he goes, yes, three hundred and twenty three
29:18
times or some number like that. And I said to myself, okay,
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Ray, hold it, stop. Stop. If James Lieberg gets three hundred
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and forty six or whatever the heck it was rejections, I could do thousands.
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I mean I can. I have no problem. And then I said,
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you know what, You're not going to go that way. And I
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went to competitions and I just took that manuscript and I put it in the
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few international competitions that allow unpublished manuscripts to bounce against published books, and I
29:56
won't bore you the details, but of the five that I entered, I
30:02
was a finalist in each and every one except for the one where I was
30:04
first place. So but once I got up to be finalists in three of
30:11
them, including the Clive Custer Adventure Writers Competition, everything changed. I had
30:19
three agent officers, and then I had multiple publication offers too. So that's
30:26
my little secret. If anybody wants to try to take a shortcut, ye,
30:30
no, that's you know, row it out there and happens. That's
30:34
great advice. There's another approach that people might be interested in trying. Thank
30:40
you for sharing that, and I highly recommend it. I mean, I
30:42
think it's the thing to do because if you think about it, there's hardly
30:45
any downside. Most of the good competitions are very inexpensive, you know,
30:49
like twenty five fifty dollars one hundred dollars probably max. If they're legitimate competitions.
30:57
It's important thing out so you know, and if and if you're not
31:02
a finalist, so what you know, I mean, you try and you
31:04
don't have to tell anyone. You don't have to tell anyone you're Oh,
31:07
you know, I have to do it, you don't have to post it
31:10
on social media. So you talked about how you first started writing. You
31:17
were just getting those fragments and bits and pieces when you were working around here
31:21
and there. Now that you're writing full time, what does your typical writing
31:23
date look like. You have a kind of a set process or well,
31:29
it's a little it's a little strange, and maybe you could tell me why
31:32
this is. But I know, I mean, I need some advice.
31:37
I'm a night person. I've always do right right, and you know,
31:41
the worst part of trying a case was having to be there at nine am.
31:45
You know that was hard. I could work all night. Does not
31:48
like night people, I know, upright. Wow. So uh but then
31:53
when I when the COVID thing came along, I crank back the practice.
31:57
I said, well, you know, now, Ray, you got to
31:59
get serious. I mean, you know, if you're going to do it,
32:02
your time has done right. So I would get up at four am,
32:07
whether I wanted to or not, and I'd write until coffee break at
32:12
ten. And you know, no, no, I'm not saying I didn't
32:16
sometimes write chapters at night because I am a knight person. But most of
32:22
the heavy writing was done in that timeframe when even my dog was sleeping.
32:28
I mean, you know, it was just total silence, and that was
32:30
great for me. Uh, you know that kind of works for me.
32:34
Interesting. Do you do you plan? Do you plan out? Do you
32:37
outline? Are you a panther or a planner? I am A. You're
32:42
never going to see more of a pantherer than me. I am I.
32:46
I start a scene, I don't even know how the scene's going to end.
32:50
Look, the characters drive me. It's the characters that tell me what
32:54
to do. And uh, and certainly I never know how a chapter is
32:58
going to end. And I didn't know how the book was going to end.
33:00
And by the way, Bill, when you do get to the ending,
33:04
I'd love to get your opinion on it really was. But I will
33:08
tell you that ending came at the end I did. I did not know
33:12
how it was going to end. We've heard this before, and I'm I
33:17
never ceased to be fascinated by how many approaches there are to this wonderful craft
33:22
that we pursue. There's no one way. Most people are hybrid, don't
33:27
you. And most of the writers I've talked to seem to be a hybrid.
33:30
They do some outlining and some some organic writing, if you want to
33:35
call it that. But Pantcer and Pancer. Uh. You know, the
33:39
my favorite author besides James Lee Burke because he's just he's up in the stratosphere.
33:45
But of the of the normal people of the world, it's Michael Connolly,
33:49
who I think is a great writer. And uh, and he's said
33:52
Pancer too. I didn't know that until after I had written Conspiracy Ignited,
33:58
but you know, and that's probably why I was drawn to his work.
34:01
I've read every Booky You've ever written fascinating. So I think you hinted or
34:07
maybe you maybe I guessed, But at any rate, I think you're working
34:12
on something else. Now what comes we look forward to seeing from you in
34:15
the future. And Eric Ridge's thriller, Erk Ridge being the lawyer that's in
34:22
the middle of all this. Eric Ridge too, Eric Ridge too. It's
34:25
going to be it's going to at least be three series, that's my plan.
34:30
But you know this conspiracy Ablaze because it was ignited in the first one.
34:35
So how did you know that? How did you know? You're joking?
34:38
Right? No, it's the working title, that's the working time.
34:42
Oh yeah, and then the Ravens Society because it's about the raven Society.
34:49
But you know, when you get together with your publisher and your editor and
34:52
all these other people of the world, you compromise. And I thought it
34:55
was a great compromise by the way, but yeah, yeah, Bill,
35:00
that's amazing. And then third is Conspiracy Inferno. I don't know, Well,
35:07
that's very interesting. I hadn't. I've got a neighbor who's kind of
35:10
a wise guy, and he says, well, why don't you just go
35:13
with Conspiracy Extinguished. I said no, no, no, no, yeah,
35:21
I don't know. Yeah, but anyway, it is the working title
35:23
thone. Great, great, great, Well, Ray, thanks so much
35:28
for being on the podcast. It's been a real pleasure. Well, thank
35:31
you, and thank you for asking me. And uh, I hope to
35:35
see you soon. I'm gonna I do plan on coming out to a writer's
35:37
time, so it would be fantastic if we'd love to have you. Just
35:46
a few parting words, Laura, we are getting very close to the writer
35:51
cond of retreat. I started packing. Oh, well, that means it's
35:54
really going to happen. I guess what are you looking forward to at the
35:59
retreat. We have not just some familiar faces coming back, but we have
36:04
some new people joining us. It's filling up pretty quickly. But I'm so
36:07
excited to meet our newcomers and start reading their pages and establish those connections and
36:16
see who's going to be our next best selling author that comes out of one
36:22
of our retreats. This is really the way to get the most work done
36:28
on your manuscript. In my opinion, we really roll up our sleeves and
36:34
get busy during these retreats, and you learn a lot, and then you
36:37
get so much feedback on your manuscript. I just don't think there's anything better.
36:43
And then of course we're going to be having meals and snacks together.
36:49
I'm looking forward to hiking, hot tubbing, all the things that are available
36:54
to us at the spot. So we're gonna work hard and play hard,
36:59
and I'm ready to get away and unplugged. Good. This is going to
37:02
sound a little braggy, but I've had people tell me they felt like they
37:07
were writing at a higher and better level after five days of the retreat and
37:15
reading their work. I agreed, So I think it's well and we should
37:20
mention it's not just you and me Laura Laurence Smith, who's USA Today best
37:24
selling Authors coming out one day. And Amy Brewer, one of the best
37:29
agents in the world, is coming out. And I think there's going to
37:31
be somebody else, but it's not quite confirmed, so I won't say that
37:35
yet. But we're going to have a great faculty. So if if you'd
37:39
like to spend five days in a beautiful location writing and improving your or starting
37:45
your work in progress, we don't care where you are in the process.
37:47
Come to the writer kind of retreat. And since this is the first podcast
37:53
we've recorded since my new book came out, I gotta mention that I got
37:58
a new book out. It's called Justice for All. That's Daniel Pike Legal
38:01
thriller number eight. But this one's a team out. Did I say team
38:05
up? No, it's like a cage match against NC Rivera from the Splitsville
38:10
series. So I'm doing another causeover book, but this time they're on opposite
38:15
ends of the courtroom. And let me tell you, sparks fly, that's
38:20
Justice for All by me? All right? Then, everyone, you heard
38:24
what Ray Johnson said tough doesn't Quit, which is pretty much a variation of
38:30
what I say every week. Isn't it all right? Keep writing and remember
38:36
you cannot fail if you refuse to quit. See you next time. Well to be