Latest / IB Unplugged / Mastering Approaches to Learning w/ Lance King

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Mastering Approaches to Learning w/ Lance King · IB Unplugged

• 0:00
  Welcome to IB Unplugged, a Kognity podcast for IBDP educators
• 0:04
  that tackles your submitted questions and challenges by connecting you with
• 0:08
  experts and peers who share their ideas and stories from real classrooms.
• 0:12
  Hi everybody.
• 0:13
  Welcome to an episode of IB Unplugged.
• 0:15
  I'm Courtney Marline.
• 0:17
  I'm John Patton,
• 0:18
  and we are very happy to be coming to you
• 0:21
  from Saint Gilgen in Austria
• 0:24
  to record this episode.
• 0:25
  And for this episode, we get to talk with Lance King, who is somebody
• 0:30
  that I've had the pleasure of doing different workshops with over the years.
• 0:35
  And he's here to talk about ATL’s.
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  Lance is an internationally recognized author, teacher, workshop facilitator
• 0:42
  who, in the last 30 years has worked in over 300 schools in 39
• 0:46
  countries, with many thousands of students, teachers and parents.
• 0:50
  He is the creator of the Art of learning program, taught to over 250,000 students
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  worldwide, and within the IB, he's designed and developed the approaches
• 0:59
  to Learning framework for both the MYP and DP programs.
• 1:03
  He is a sought out
• 1:05
  presenter for his workshops for teachers, students and parents.
• 1:08
  He's the author of seven books on teaching and learning,
• 1:11
  and he is married with four grown children and lives in New Zealand.
• 1:16
  And talking with Lance was absolutely incredible.
• 1:19
  There's so many things from this episode that you could pull out as like highlights
• 1:23
  and key takeaways.
• 1:24
  So, we just want to dive straight in here
• 1:26
  because there's something for every educator in this conversation with Lance.
• 1:30
  We hope you’ll enjoy the show.
• 1:37
  Good morning, Lance.
• 1:39
  Thank you so much for joining us this morning.
• 1:41
  Thank you, Courtney.
• 1:42
  Nice to be here.
• 1:44
  Yeah.
• 1:44
  Welcome to IB Unplugged.
• 1:45
  We're super excited to have you here.
• 1:47
  I've loved working with you in the past. You've done
• 1:51
  quite a few different conference sessions, things like that with Kognity.
• 1:55
  So we knew we had so many people that were asking about ATL’s,
• 2:00
  not just for IB Unplugged, but in Kognity in general.
• 2:03
  It's always been a, hot topic for us.
• 2:05
  And I knew you were the right guy to talk to.
• 2:09
  So thank you for taking the time.
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  I'm really excited to jump in.
• 2:13
  And so before we kind of dive right into the ATL’s, something that we
• 2:17
  like to ask all of our guests is the big wide question of why education?
• 2:22
  Why did you kind of go down this career path?
• 2:26
  Well, I guess
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  funnily enough, my first teaching job
• 2:31
  was simply I never, ever considered myself to be a teacher.
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  My first degree was in food technology,
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  so I was working in the food industry as a kind of industrial chemist.
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  And I was out of work because of the birth of my first son.
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  And, I just took the first job I had
• 2:49
  I could find, which was teaching, at a polytechnic.
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  And, suddenly discovered that I love teaching.
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  I never even considered that.
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  So I discovered that.
• 3:00
  And then,
• 3:02
  I guess in my
• 3:04
  in that first job, I was teaching all sorts of highly content
• 3:10
  focused subjects, microbiology and process engineering and all sorts of things.
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  And I discovered that the best students in the class
• 3:19
  weren't necessarily the smartest students.
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  They were the students that had the best process skills.
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  They were the ones who could focus well, who could concentrate
• 3:29
  well, who went over their notes,
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  who did the extra reading, who were good at summarizing
• 3:34
  all the information, who were good at all the process skills of learning.
• 3:38
  And that's what sent me down the direction of the
• 3:42
  skills of learning, which ultimately led to ATL skills.
• 3:48
  Yeah, it was I kind of fell into it and discovered
• 3:51
  I love teaching, and I've been a teacher now for 40 years.
• 3:55
  Wow. That's, that's incredible.
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  That's a really cool way to get into it.
• 3:59
  You know, sometimes many people have different backstories.
• 4:01
  I guess when it comes to education, that's a cool one. I like it.
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  We also like to ask all of our guests,
• 4:07
  how do you feel the role of education is going to be changing,
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  or what sort of experiences are we going to see in the next decade or so?
• 4:14
  Well, I mean, the obvious answer is AI. It will take over.
• 4:18
  I don't think there's any question about that.
• 4:22
  Certainly not take over. We still have it, right?
• 4:24
  Like I'm not out of the job, Lance.
• 4:26
  Well, I don't know.
• 4:28
  I'm not so sure because I have a quote from Mustafa Suleyman.
• 4:34
  I don't know if you know who Mustafa Suleyman is.
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  He's the CEO of Microsoft AI,
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  former head of DeepMind, founder of Inflection AI.
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  Like he's one of the four top people in AI in the world.
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  And he said,
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  I have a quote here from him which is..
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  He said that in two years he expects every person
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  to have in their pocket the best teacher in the world.
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  Wow. A teacher who can absolutely give you as a student
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  the experience of learning, but in the way that suits you best
• 5:12
  as an individual.
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  And so I think subject teaching is actually on the way out.
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  I think the subject teachers will be replaced
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  by AI and not, you know, not in the long term future.
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  I think subject teaching is actually,
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  a thing of the past.
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  I did a keynote presentation
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  at a conference in Korea just a couple of months ago,
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  and this was the substance of my keynote, and it did not go down well.
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  I was going to say. I wonder why. I'm smiling right now,
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  but I know my anxiety levels just went up as you said that.
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  Like I feel my blood pressure change, right?
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  This thing I've dedicated my life to..
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  Well, you see, the thing is
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  you haven't just dedicated your life to teaching a subject.
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  You're also probably really good at the process of learning that subject,
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  so that I think the shift is going to have to be for subject teachers
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  to move from delivering content
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  to focusing on process to become basically ATL teachers.
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  I think the future of education as everyone becomes an ATL teacher,
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  which I think is a great move,
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  Obviously.
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  So the future of education is to return to when you developed
• 6:28
  basically the ATL framework in itself.
• 6:32
  Yes. Well, yes.
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  For all teachers to focus on how the student is learning, not so much
• 6:37
  what the student is learning, because the what will be provided
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  by a brilliant online tutor.
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  Right.
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  So, really effective teaching and learning of the ATL
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  skills will help to create those lifelong learners, then,
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  and then I guess in that respect, are we still able to fulfill
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  like the mission of the IB in this idea of like creating a better,
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  more peaceful world, you know, intercultural understanding, respect,
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  that sort of thing that's going to come from really effective ATL skills.
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  And therefore we don't really need to focus on the subject.
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  We just need to get lifelong learners.
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  I think absolutely.
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  And I think it actually,
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  if you think about it from the external point of view,
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  I think it enhances the role of a teacher because a teacher becomes
• 7:17
  so much more important, because the teacher is looking after
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  the mental health of the student, the ability of that student
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  to learn by themselves, using every resource.
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  And so I think it enhances teaching because,
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  you know, the thing that grabbed me
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  as a teacher was being able to make a difference for students,
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  being able to help them, help their minds expand, be able to help them
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  to learn without needing me as a teacher.
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  And I think that's where we're all heading to.
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  And so I think it actually enhances the teaching role.
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  The teachers become more important because they're helping the holistic
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  development of that child to do or to achieve all those objectives.
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  And those objectives of the IB are not subject to objectives
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  when you read them.
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  They are objectives about being a whole person and having an impact on the world.
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  And I think that's the role that teachers will take.
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  So more of that guide on the side, kind of mentality
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  that idea of like being a coach in the process.
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  And I think, you know, as you mentioned,
• 8:22
  there are so many teachers I've come across
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  who say, like, I'm not necessarily a biologist or I'm not a
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  I'm not a historian, you know, I'm a teacher of kids,
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  and I do that through biology or through history or something like that.
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  Yes.
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  Okay, good. I've just calm down. I feel better now.
• 8:40
  Sorry.
• 8:42
  No, no, I think it's good.
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  And I think it's important to have the conversation
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  sometimes, you know, you start with that big, bold statement
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  of, yeah, no more teachers.
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  And then it's like, okay, no, we're going to break this down.
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  And what does this actually mean?
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  But then it's about what value can you bring into your job.
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  And I mean I think that teachers, they're not all teachers.
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  And maybe to the IB is maybe one of the more progressive options.
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  But there are teachers that are teaching the exact same way that their teachers
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  teachers have been teaching.
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  And this is forcing you out of that kind
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  of lack of evolution of the profession.
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  Yes.
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  I think the essential nature of teaching where one
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  teacher stands in front of a group of students and delivers
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  their wisdom hasn't changed for 4000 years.
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  And you know, we have tablets from Samaria which show exactly the same thing.
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  And I think that's the thing that's going to change
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  is that no longer will it be subject delivery, it will be,
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  you know, like they've always said,
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  no one cares how much you know, until they know how much you care.
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  It's the caring nature of teaching.
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  It's the ability to connect with students at an emotional level,
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  and the ability to help that child to cope with their world.
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  That's going to be the teacher role, I think, which is much more fulfilling
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  as a teacher,
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  than delivering biology or delivering whatever it is you people deliver.
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  I think it's a much more connected way of being a facilitator.
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  Absolutely.
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  And I think that's one of the really beautiful parts about the IB.
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  And I think that especially when we got to the ATL’s, that's something
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  that is really a powerful differentiator between maybe a traditional curriculum
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  and the diploma program, or especially the MYP.
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  But I mean, you designed the ATL framework
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  and you were able to create this really powerful part
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  of the IB program.
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  And I would love for you to just talk a little bit about that process of how
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  you were able to create that and really ultimately
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  how you came to that model.
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  Yes. Well,
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  I guess by the time I came across the IB, which was, you know, I started
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  my work in 1995, and I knew nothing about the IB.
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  The IB doesn't have a bigger presence in New Zealand.
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  It certainly didn't have almost any presence back then.
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  And so I was delivering workshops
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  for students, teaching students how to learn more effectively.
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  And that's when I started and I delivered them all over New Zealand for many years.
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  I had other people worked for me, you know,
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  I had six people on the road at one stage running these courses in schools.
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  And then there was a big change in the funding that the government
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  made available for things like what I did.
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  And so I started to look offshore for work.
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  And the first place I went to was England, because they had
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  a similar curriculum to New Zealand and, but the seasons were around the other way.
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  So when there was no work in New Zealand, there was work in England.
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  So I started going to England.
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  And the stop off point halfway to England from New Zealand is Thailand.
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  And we had some friends who lived in Thailand, so I used to stay with them
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  and after a while I picked up some schools in Bangkok
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  that I would work in, and one of the schools was Nist.
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  and the deputy principal of Nist at the time was Malcolm Nicolson.
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  And Malcolm saw me work with the students in class every year I'd pass through
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  and I'd do 2 or 3 workshops, work with the students and then leave.
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  And he saw that what I did seemed to have a very positive effect.
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  And so then Malcolm became the,
• 12:37
  development director for the new NYP at the head office.
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  At that point, which was in Wales. In the 90s, that would have been
• 12:48
  in Cardiff. Yes.
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  And so he got in touch with me
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  and he said, look, I want to redevelop the whole ATL thing.
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  I think we need to put more emphasis on it.
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  Can you help?
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  And so I wrote some papers for him.
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  And the upshot of that was he ended up asking me to develop
• 13:07
  a new NYP ATL framework.
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  And so I just did lots and lots of research about the
• 13:15
  how people taught these kind of skills,
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  and built the framework
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  over six months or so.
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  And then he moved on to become the development director for the DP
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  and redid the whole thing for the DP.
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  And so the basis of the framework was just simply all the research
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  I could do at the time on who taught these kind of skills
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  and how did they teach them, and what were the existing frameworks.
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  And just developed it from there.
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  Yeah. It's really actually quite amazing.
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  You know, like I'm
• 13:54
  IBDP coordinator at my school and you know, often
• 13:57
  when I'm presenting about the ATL’s
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  or helping students or teachers kind of understand
• 14:00
  a little bit more about why these are important.
• 14:02
  I'm often like relating to,
• 14:05
  you know, Forbes projections for like the skills that are going to be
• 14:08
  most useful in the next 5 to 10 years or something like this, or like top, top
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  ten skills are gonna be necessary for university or careers.
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  And every single time that comes out over the last 15 years or so,
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  I've been doing this, it's like you can't see the ATL’s pull out from it.
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  So obviously did some great research at the time to find something
• 14:24
  that, you know, stands the test of time.
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  And at the top of the show, we were talking about what
• 14:29
  is, you know, how is education going to evolve over the next few years.
• 14:31
  And I think you're right, like it's still going to come back
• 14:33
  to these five effective, like five essentials sort of ATL’s
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  developing these things within our students
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  and our young people and really trying to focus in on those.
• 14:41
  So, I guess
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  I'm just kind of singing some praises right now, like I think you
• 14:46
  nailed it in many respects, but I guess, you know, with that regard,
• 14:50
  are there any, when you think about those kind of key ATL’s, are there
• 14:54
  some that are maybe misunderstood or maybe less..
• 14:58
  they're not delivered so well or they kind of get less emphasis compared to others.
• 15:02
  And that could relate back to like traditional styles of teaching.
• 15:07
  I guess, is there one that's neglected compared to others in your opinion?
• 15:10
  Well, you're right, John.
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  It's very interesting
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  because the work I was doing in 1995 with students
• 15:21
  when I started out was
• 15:24
  I started with the skills that were most,
• 15:29
  obvious the exam passing skills, the skills you need to pass exams.
• 15:34
  So, you know, you need to be out of focus.
• 15:36
  You need to concentrate.
• 15:37
  You need to be able to summarize information really well.
• 15:39
  You need to be able to remember well, you need to add up, etc., etc., etc.
• 15:43
  all the basic cognitive skills,
• 15:46
  but it became clear relatively early
• 15:49
  that those skills were all really important.
• 15:52
  But if a child didn't know how to self
• 15:55
  motivate, for example, didn't know how to overcome,
• 15:59
  to overcome procrastination, they didn't know how to persevere,
• 16:02
  didn't know how to, feel good about the outcome,
• 16:06
  the purpose, the reason for doing what they were doing.
• 16:10
  Then they wouldn't even get started.
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  And so the effect of what what tends to get
• 16:16
  put into the affective group, the skills that are
• 16:20
  more emotionally based, those became much more significant.
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  And so all the work I ever did working with students,
• 16:30
  always had a blend of the emotionally based skills.
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  What is the purpose of that exam?
• 16:36
  How do you generate intrinsic motivation?
• 16:39
  How do you overcome your tendency not to want to work?
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  How do you get yourself to do the study when you need to, but you really don't
• 16:47
  feel like doing it?
• 16:50
  All those kind of skills became significantly more important,
• 16:55
  and that led to all the work that I did.
• 16:58
  On failure.
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  And so my master's was all about, learning from failure, what I call failing well.
• 17:05
  And that actually became the key, the core of everything that I did,
• 17:09
  by the time I was working with the IB.
• 17:13
  And so that is something that is,
• 17:16
  I don't know how well that is addressed by teachers because I haven't,
• 17:20
  I guess, really gone back into classrooms and look at how teachers teach that.
• 17:25
  But to me, that's the essence of all learning is learning
• 17:30
  how to deal well with life when it doesn't work out the way you want it to.
• 17:36
  How to deal well with failure.
• 17:38
  And so I guess that would be the one I would focus on as being
• 17:41
  the thing that is: A most important to all forms of academic and,
• 17:47
  and emotional success,
• 17:49
  and is the one that is probably the least
• 17:52
  well explained, the least well understood, the least well taught.
• 17:56
  But I'm just guessing there.
• 17:58
  Yeah.
• 17:58
  It's, also, I think probably one of the hardest ones
• 18:02
  to really integrate into your classrooms, especially in a program like the IB
• 18:06
  that is quite rigorous.
• 18:07
  And there is the pressure from the parents,
• 18:10
  the internal pressure of all of these children.
• 18:12
  And it's like,
• 18:14
  it's such a mindset shift to be like,
• 18:18
  your parents are want you to do perfectly right.
• 18:21
  We really want you to fail and mess up and make mistakes
• 18:24
  and learn from them and feel good about failing.
• 18:27
  And I mean, that's a huge difference that you're dealing with there.
• 18:32
  Like just teaching it like you see
• 18:33
  so many students coming in and expecting to just be great, right?
• 18:36
  They want to just come in and like hit you know the top scores right away.
• 18:40
  And so often in those first, you know, formative assessments
• 18:43
  and the many different ways that you might be assessing
• 18:45
  how students learning not just quantitatively but otherwise, you know, they
• 18:50
  they want to
• 18:52
  they want to show themselves as perfect just as you mentioned.
• 18:54
  So really trying to reshape that a bit and understand this idea
• 18:58
  of like formative type assessment.
• 19:00
  And this is a process that like failing is actually very, very good.
• 19:04
  So let's try to create an environment that's really quite safe.
• 19:07
  And if you're comfortable trying failing and getting better at it, you know,
• 19:12
  it's an explorative practice, I think for most educators for sure.
• 19:17
  But I think there is I mean, everything you said is correct,
• 19:20
  but I think there are some very simple things that teachers
• 19:23
  can do in the classroom which reinforce this model.
• 19:26
  It's like, for example, if you're a subject teacher
• 19:29
  and you've just had this test
• 19:30
  and the students have got their results back from a test,
• 19:34
  what do you do when you hand the papers back?
• 19:38
  Because that seems to me the most important thing to do first,
• 19:42
  from a student's point of view at that moment is to look at the result.
• 19:47
  Not so much look at the score, the grade, the mark,
• 19:51
  but to look at the questions you got wrong.
• 19:54
  And the most important thing to do with every question you got wrong
• 19:58
  is to find the right answer and rewrite the answer to that question.
• 20:02
  Actually, physically sit down and rewrite the answer.
• 20:05
  Doesn't matter how big it is.
• 20:06
  Rewrite the answer.
• 20:08
  Now, if that is done as a homework assignment.
• 20:11
  So the teacher says, take your paper home and I want you
• 20:13
  to work out what you did wrong and rewrite it.
• 20:16
  That is one way to do it, which has some impact.
• 20:21
  I feel like you're leading to that's not the right way to do it.
• 20:25
  Well, I think that's a step, but I think it would be much
• 20:29
  more significant for the students if that step was done in the classroom.
• 20:33
  So if the teacher said, in my classroom, I'm going to put
• 20:37
  a whole lot of emphasis on people learning from their mistakes.
• 20:40
  So I'm going to give them time to learn from the mistakes.
• 20:43
  I'm going to put the students together into groups and learn from each other
• 20:48
  So after I've handed the test papers back, everyone is going to work
• 20:52
  on all the things they got wrong and rewrite those answers.
• 20:56
  But we're going to do it in the classroom, and you can ask me and you can consult,
• 20:59
  and we're going to work it through
• 21:01
  until everyone has got a perfect paper written.
• 21:05
  Yeah. And then we're finished.
• 21:06
  So what I've done in my classroom, I've said that
• 21:09
  for any assessment, there are three possible outcomes
• 21:14
  you can succeed, you can fail badly or you can fail well.
• 21:19
  And two of those are positive.
• 21:22
  So I'm saying in my classroom it's just as good to fail
• 21:26
  well as it is to succeed first time.
• 21:30
  And if you think about it, most kids think about assessment as being a pass
• 21:35
  fail situation.
• 21:36
  There are only two possible outcomes and they're about 50-50.
• 21:40
  Now I've created three outcomes and two of them are positive.
• 21:43
  So I've actually increased the possibility of a positive outcome by 25%.
• 21:48
  And so suddenly every child has actually got
• 21:51
  a higher motivation to try
• 21:55
  because it's not just a pass fail situation.
• 21:59
  You've always got the possibility of redoing the answer
• 22:04
  and learning from your own mistake.
• 22:07
  It reminds me, you know, I had the pleasure
• 22:09
  working with a colleague named Kenny Dahl for a while,
• 22:12
  he would always say, you know, try, fail, try again, fail better
• 22:17
  and just kind of keep that mantra going, which I think is,
• 22:21
  it kind of just as you were mentioning that I really reminded me
• 22:24
  a lot of that process.
• 22:25
  But, you know, as you were talking there, I could hear kind of every IBDP teacher
• 22:30
  kind of screaming in my ear, like, but then there's no time for the content.
• 22:33
  When am I going to get all this content done?
• 22:35
  If I spend all this time, like developing resilience on, like,
• 22:39
  how to fail better and how to learn from my mistakes and create a perfect answer,
• 22:43
  I can just hear them being like, but that's going to be,
• 22:45
  you know, 2 or 3 hours of a lesson spent on just this exam.
• 22:48
  And I got to get going.
• 22:49
  So, you know, I guess, like, I know I've got some strategies
• 22:53
  with regard to like flipping a classroom, for example,
• 22:55
  and doing a lot more content stuff outside of the classroom.
• 22:59
  I of course, I use Kognity for that,
• 23:00
  and that helps a ton in terms of getting that information across.
• 23:04
  But from your perspective,
• 23:05
  are there ways that you feel like teachers can emphasize just use that time
• 23:10
  to teach that failure, teach that like safe space of like learning
• 23:14
  from those mistakes
• 23:15
  and yet not lose the time that you know that they do need to cover
• 23:19
  all the other different aspects of the curriculum.
• 23:23
  Or does this come back to you,
• 23:25
  We're no longer going to be teachers of content anyway, so just focus on this?
• 23:29
  Well, I guess that's the ultimate answer for sure.
• 23:33
  But there is no easy answer.
• 23:34
  I mean, the DP is overloaded with content.
• 23:38
  There is no question of it.
• 23:39
  There is too much content which restricts the ability to,
• 23:43
  go through the process of failing well,
• 23:45
  like I said, but it also restricts the ability to teach ideal skills
• 23:49
  because there is no extra time.
• 23:51
  And I mean, that's the essential problem, which as you said, once
• 23:54
  we get to the AI tutor environment, we will be able to get past this
• 23:59
  until in teachers are totally focused on delivery of content,
• 24:04
  on getting this information across in a way that's understood by the students
• 24:08
  so they can move on to the next piece of content
• 24:10
  and this is the essential problem in all forms of education, not just the DP.
• 24:15
  It's the same problem everywhere.
• 24:17
  And it's a difficult problem, which I, as I said,
• 24:19
  I think will be solved by the AI tutor interface.
• 24:23
  This is great.
• 24:24
  You’ve taken me for being scared of AI
• 24:26
  to being comfortable with it, to now excited.
• 24:28
  That was a nice little journey that we've been on together.
• 24:31
  Thank you.
• 24:32
  But yeah, I think it's a wonderful environment.
• 24:35
  I think it's the best possible thing that could happen to education
• 24:38
  because as a teacher you get stuck.
• 24:41
  It's so much content delivery because you're trying to pass
• 24:45
  this knowledge across to a student in a way that helps them to understand it.
• 24:50
  If that part of your job was taken away, you could actually focus on
• 24:54
  what was most important.
• 24:55
  And I mean for the existing teacher.
• 24:57
  Before we get to that point, I think that the whole failing well at ATL
• 25:02
  thing is more about, changing a mindset,
• 25:06
  to use an overused term.
• 25:09
  It's to do with trying to make sure that in every lesson we're focused
• 25:14
  as much on the process of learning as we are on the content of learning.
• 25:21
  That shouldn't require much time.
• 25:26
  It seems to me. I mean,
• 25:28
  the content that I've always taught has been process.
• 25:31
  I've always taught a process.
• 25:34
  I've not been a content teacher,
• 25:37
  since about 1995. Yes.
• 25:41
  That's when I shifted from being content to process teacher.
• 25:43
  And so I can't say with any assurance that a teacher can focus on
• 25:48
  the process of learning without using up valuable time.
• 25:52
  But it seems to me that focusing on the process of learning in all ways
• 25:57
  increases the efficiency of learning and the effectiveness of learning.
• 26:00
  And as soon as you increase the efficiency and effectiveness,
• 26:03
  then you are actually becoming a more effective content teacher.
• 26:07
  And so the content learning happens quicker.
• 26:10
  And when it happens quicker because there's more effective learning,
• 26:12
  then you have more time for a more of a focus on the process
• 26:16
  so that is the interim solution as far as I can see.
• 26:21
  Sorry, it's the first bit of like the IB mission
• 26:24
  is like developing inquiring and there's knowledgeable, caring young people.
• 26:28
  But if you can develop that inquiring like learning to learn thing,
• 26:32
  then the rest of it kind of falls into place.
• 26:34
  I think that that's something that's been a bit tricky with the IB,
• 26:36
  with a lot of teachers, especially if they start out
• 26:38
  maybe as a subject teacher in a different curriculum,
• 26:41
  and then they switch to the IB.
• 26:42
  It's kind of almost like, how do I put the IB
• 26:45
  layer on being a biology teacher?
• 26:48
  It's not like I'm an IB teacher who teaches biology.
• 26:52
  It's I'm a biology teacher in the IB, and that's something where
• 26:56
  I think even earlier you were mentioning with the ATL skills,
• 27:00
  it's not something extra, but it's so easy to think of it as something extra.
• 27:05
  Same with TOK or international mind.
• 27:07
  It's like, man, I forgot to include that.
• 27:10
  Not this is the fundamental structure of how I teach my lesson.
• 27:14
  It's kind of that outside in thinking versus like inside out, right?
• 27:18
  If you think about the diploma program model, like,
• 27:20
  I want to start with a learner profile, and I'm going to go to like my 80 hours,
• 27:25
  to like deliver that and kind of build that.
• 27:26
  If I go from the inside out,
• 27:28
  then it becomes an integrated part of the entire curriculum.
• 27:30
  Whereas if I'm coming from the subject's back into it like, oh, I need to,
• 27:34
  I'm going to do my subject and then, yeah, I'll touch on TOK, and I'll touch on
• 27:37
  all these things as well.
• 27:38
  Then you can easily kind of miss the mark, right?
• 27:41
  Oh, absolutely.
• 27:42
  And I mean every teacher
• 27:46
  their self esteem in some respects is
• 27:49
  based on what they know and what they know is their subject matter.
• 27:54
  And so I am a biologist, I am a physicist, I am an English teacher.
• 27:58
  You know, it is my content that makes me feel valued
• 28:02
  and so for it to suggest to a teacher that actually
• 28:06
  that's only half the job, the other half is the process.
• 28:09
  Maybe that's a bit
• 28:12
  threatening to the self-esteem of a teacher,
• 28:14
  because a teacher doesn't necessarily understand
• 28:18
  or understand how to teach the process of learning,
• 28:22
  but they do understand absolutely how to teach their content.
• 28:25
  So the natural inclination is to focus entirely on the content
• 28:29
  and treat the process as being the extra piece,
• 28:32
  the extra bit that maybe I'll get around to and maybe not.
• 28:35
  And yet it's the focus on the process that will actually improve
• 28:39
  the understanding and retention of the content.
• 28:43
  It makes perfect sense when you describe it that way.
• 28:46
  But obviously you've been going into who knows how many schools at this point
• 28:50
  trying to really help teachers and do these teacher workshops
• 28:53
  and get them into this way of thinking.
• 28:55
  But, I mean, where do you start with that?
• 28:58
  Like, how do you I mean, it's a huge leap to get there.
• 29:04
  Well, yeah, a bit. But it's completely obvious isn't it?
• 29:07
  I mean, it's completely obvious to you two.
• 29:09
  No, that's why I asked you.
• 29:12
  And all I'm ever doing is saying what is completely obvious.
• 29:15
  Everyone knows that an efficient, effective learner
• 29:19
  will learn their subjects and pass their exams much more easily
• 29:25
  and, brilliantly than someone who was an ineffective learner.
• 29:29
  So helping them to become an effective learner
• 29:32
  is actually the core mission.
• 29:34
  Helping them to become a knowledgeable biologist is the second part.
• 29:40
  But we don't usually dedicate specific
• 29:44
  time to teaching them how to be a brilliant learner.
• 29:48
  We assume that, well, some of them will and some of them won't.
• 29:51
  And that's just, you know, evolution is just the way of the process.
• 29:55
  It's just the process, yes.
• 29:57
  My whole mission is actually to get teachers to explicitly
• 30:02
  teach the ATL skills, which then crashes straight into exactly what John said
• 30:08
  before about, yes, but where am I going to get the time to do this?
• 30:12
  And so I just focus on
• 30:14
  strategies for teachers can use to help children to become better learners,
• 30:20
  like through homework tasks and through a process,
• 30:24
  using process assessment as well as content assessment
• 30:27
  and various tools to help the child become much more aware
• 30:32
  of how they learn while they are doing the learning.
• 30:37
  Today's KogTip was submitted by Jaishree Vinod,
• 30:40
  who is offering a help on how to best use Kognity in your classroom.
• 30:44
  Jaishree says: one of my top tips for using Kognity effectively
• 30:48
  is the Leveraging the Adaptive Assignments feature to personalize student learning.
• 30:52
  I can ensure differentiated instruction and targeted support
• 30:56
  by assigning specific readings, practice questions,
• 30:59
  or quizzes based on each student's strengths and weaknesses.
• 31:02
  Additionally, I find real time analytics extremely useful
• 31:06
  for tracking student progress.
• 31:08
  It helps identify which concepts need reinforcement,
• 31:11
  allowing me to play an intervention strategies accordingly.
• 31:17
  And do you find
• 31:19
  that's accessible for all students kind of everywhere.
• 31:23
  I mean, you know,
• 31:24
  I teach in an international school where we have students
• 31:26
  that come from all sorts of different backgrounds
• 31:28
  and therefore, like their expectations of what education is going to be,
• 31:33
  comes with their culture and where they're from in terms
• 31:35
  of like what their parents are putting on them.
• 31:36
  And here's what the scores mean, and here's what the numbers mean.
• 31:40
  And this is, you know, they may have come from an educational system
• 31:42
  that is very like, learn this and like spit it back to me kind of thing.
• 31:47
  Less about learning how to learn, less about analytical critical
• 31:51
  thinking skills, that sort of stuff.
• 31:52
  And definitely no failing. And definitely no failing, you know?
• 31:56
  So, at least obviously I'm speaking from better personal experience.
• 32:00
  You know, you have some of those students who I find a really
• 32:02
  they're quite open to trying out this stuff,
• 32:04
  and they recognize that you're developing a learner,
• 32:07
  but then you also find some resistance from some students who are just like,
• 32:10
  but what do I actually need to know for the test?
• 32:13
  And they kind of comes back to that because so much of their identity
• 32:15
  is wrapped up in that, like quantitative measurement of who they are.
• 32:19
  And I guess in your experiences, have you
• 32:22
  have these
• 32:23
  sort of strategies worked regardless of where people are from?
• 32:26
  Or do you find, like there's another way to approach those students
• 32:29
  who might have a bit more of a fixed mindset to this?
• 32:33
  Certainly the strategies have worked in every.. I've worked in 39 countries.
• 32:37
  I've worked in over 300 schools.
• 32:40
  All the strategies work in every single environment I've ever been in.
• 32:45
  John, bad question. Carry on.
• 32:47
  No, no, no, it's perfectly reasonable question,
• 32:50
  because the bat is, is that students are completely pragmatic.
• 32:54
  Absolutely.
• 32:56
  Most pragmatic people on the planet is a DP student who will only do what works.
• 33:01
  And you can use that.
• 33:04
  It's why, you know, when teacher teachers starts to teach
• 33:07
  an ATL skill, the students say, is it in the test?
• 33:10
  Right. And the teacher has to say, well, no.
• 33:12
  And they say, well, why are we learning it? Right.
• 33:14
  And so there has to be a selling job done for students.
• 33:18
  Now in all, like I've run full day workshops for students
• 33:22
  for over 30 years and half day workshops as well.
• 33:27
  But the most important thing I have to do in
• 33:29
  those workshops is prove to the students
• 33:32
  right at the beginning
• 33:34
  that I can improve their ability to learn.
• 33:39
  That in a very short exercise,
• 33:41
  I can show them that they can get more out of their mind
• 33:44
  then they realize.
• 33:46
  That they can do things that they thought were impossible.
• 33:50
  Now, once you've done that, students are so pragmatic
• 33:54
  that they go, oh, that worked okay, I'll do that.
• 33:57
  And I mean, once you've got over that hurdle of showing them
• 34:01
  that they can improve the efficiency, effectiveness of their learning,
• 34:04
  and they can learn things that they didn't know were possible.
• 34:08
  Bingo. Then everything else just works.
• 34:11
  They go, oh, okay, I'll do that. I'll do that.
• 34:12
  I'll do that. Because they're
• 34:14
  pragmatically oriented towards wanting to improve their own success.
• 34:19
  So you have to be a magician is what I just heard.
• 34:22
  You have to do a magic like get them to, you know, no just kidding.
• 34:25
  It's very very simple.
• 34:27
  I mean I'll give you an example. I'm going to demonstrate
• 34:31
  what I do with students to help them,
• 34:36
  discover that they can do things that they think are impossible.
• 34:39
  So I'll be standing in front of a group of students and I'll say to them,
• 34:43
  oh, first we do an exercise on visualization,
• 34:47
  where I get them to do a certain physical stretch,
• 34:50
  and then I get them to run through a visualization.
• 34:53
  And then when they do the same stretch again, they find they go much further
• 34:57
  and they're suddenly intrigued, because just by using your mind,
• 35:01
  you've actually increased, an ability.
• 35:05
  And that is intriguing for them.
• 35:08
  So I've got the curiosity going by that point.
• 35:10
  And then I say to them, okay, so now we have to apply
• 35:13
  what you've just learned to a real life learning situation.
• 35:16
  So what I'm going to do is I'm going to attempt
• 35:18
  to teach you something which you might think is impossible.
• 35:22
  And you'd have to agree that if I can teach you how to do that,
• 35:25
  then I've obviously got some magic.
• 35:27
  I've got something that will help you to learn more effectively.
• 35:30
  And they're all kind of nodding by this stage.
• 35:33
  So what I'm going to do is I'm going to teach you how to do this.
• 35:38
  For those of you who are
• 35:39
  only listening, we've got some juggling going on.
• 35:42
  Yeah. Yes.
• 35:43
  So I'm going to teach them how to do this.
• 35:46
  And whoops, I'm getting caught up in my mike.
• 35:51
  And so what happens is by this stage, the students,
• 35:56
  there some of them are thinking, that's impossible.
• 35:58
  I can't do that.
• 36:00
  That's ridiculous.
• 36:01
  Some of them are thinking, yeah, that'll be great,
• 36:02
  but a lot of them are thinking, that's impossible.
• 36:05
  I could never do that. I've never been any good at ball skills.
• 36:07
  I've never been any good at that sort of thing.
• 36:10
  And so then I take them through a whole process of getting them
• 36:13
  to notice their internal dialog, the way they talk to themselves,
• 36:16
  getting them to notice what they imagine, what they visualize and take them
• 36:20
  through a step by step process of, I guess, skill building.
• 36:24
  Here you start with a very simple step and move on to move on and move on.
• 36:28
  And within 15 minutes or so, most of them are juggling.
• 36:31
  Yeah.
• 36:32
  And by the end of the day, they're all, you know,
• 36:37
  I carry bags of like three balls for every student.
• 36:41
  40 students. Yes.
• 36:42
  So I've got hundreds and hundreds of juggling balls
• 36:45
  in wheelie bags all around the world..
• 36:49
  Airport security is probably sitting there, what is this man doing.
• 36:54
  There is something just mentioned there with regard to like the internal dialog.
• 36:58
  And that just really captured me because, you know, when you talk about,
• 37:03
  you know, earlier at the top of the show, we were talking about like, you know,
• 37:05
  resilience and developing this specific ATL skills and this idea of failing well,
• 37:10
  And so often the barrier there is that internal dialog, like,
• 37:14
  what am I actually saying to myself
• 37:16
  before I start a task like the one you just started
• 37:19
  when I'm expecting to do some..
• 37:21
  when I first started diploma program, I know, like many of the students
• 37:24
  who serve the diploma program in high school,
• 37:26
  their internal dialog is like, okay, now it gets serious.
• 37:29
  Yeah, now it's going to be hard.
• 37:30
  Now I, like everybody says, it's just like so much work,
• 37:33
  I'm not gonna be able to sleep.
• 37:34
  So I'm very interested in how you coach that.
• 37:38
  How do you coach that internal dialog to help students be aware of it,
• 37:42
  but also to shift the way that they approach that?
• 37:47
  John.
• 37:48
  Yes, I think that this is actually the most important thing.
• 37:51
  If I was going to teach one thing
• 37:53
  for the rest of my life, that would be that internal dialog.
• 37:57
  And because it is so,
• 38:00
  a lot of people seem to have the idea
• 38:03
  inside their head that this dialog comes from somewhere else.
• 38:07
  Like it's not in their control.
• 38:10
  It's almost as if it's beamed in from a satellite
• 38:13
  circling the Earth or something.
• 38:14
  This negative voice that comes into the head.
• 38:18
  So I start by, while talking to students about,
• 38:23
  how that that voice is just there a negative aspect of their own dialog.
• 38:29
  It is their voice.
• 38:30
  And because it is their voice, they can actually control it.
• 38:33
  They can actually, have it do whatever they wanted to do.
• 38:37
  But they've got to realize that.
• 38:39
  So I teach them various strategies for
• 38:43
  noticing.
• 38:44
  You've got to start noticing, the voice inside your head,
• 38:48
  and notice that sometimes it's a positive aspect of yourself,
• 38:51
  and sometimes it's a negative aspect of yourself, but it is just yourself
• 38:55
  and teaching them how to notice the negative and interrupt the negative.
• 39:00
  And they use various visual metaphors for this interrupt
• 39:05
  the dialog and replace it with something positive.
• 39:08
  So that's when I'm dealing with young children.
• 39:11
  It's about, you know, holding up the stop sign
• 39:13
  and interrupting that dialog and replacing it with,
• 39:17
  and you've got to be very careful about how you the language you replace it with.
• 39:21
  It's very important to replace that I can't
• 39:24
  and that I'll never and this is awful to replace it with
• 39:27
  I can manage this, I can handle this today.
• 39:30
  I can get through this today. I can deal with this today.
• 39:32
  I'm bigger than this. I'm stronger than this.
• 39:34
  I can manage this.
• 39:36
  Talking about drawing strength out of the person through language.
• 39:41
  And then when we get to
• 39:42
  the specific task, like the juggling ball task, I will get students to notice
• 39:47
  anytime they say I can't because I can't is a problem.
• 39:52
  Because if you're saying to yourself, I can't, you're suggesting
• 39:55
  you never, ever will.
• 39:56
  It's a permanent fixed state.
• 39:58
  And so I suggest to them, is that true?
• 40:01
  How do you know that you can't?
• 40:03
  How do you know you never, ever will?
• 40:06
  Or you can actually say if you're trying to be accurate
• 40:08
  is up to this point in my life, I haven't learned how to juggle.
• 40:12
  That's true. Up to this point in my life.
• 40:14
  But who knows what might happen in the future.
• 40:17
  So the simplest thing I do, the mantra of my courses for over
• 40:22
  30 years has been the shift from I can't to I haven't yet.
• 40:26
  Yeah.
• 40:27
  And you discover that any time you replace an I can't with an
• 40:30
  I haven't yet, it actually opens up possibility. I can closes down
• 40:35
  possibility I haven't yet is actually more accurate.
• 40:39
  It's true.
• 40:40
  And it opens up the possibility that I might. Now start saying,
• 40:45
  you see, I always avoid changing an I can't into an
• 40:50
  I will or an I have because once again, you don't know that.
• 40:56
  Or you can actually say for sure is that it's very true.
• 40:59
  I haven't done that yet.
• 41:02
  But as soon as you say that to yourself, I haven't written this report yet.
• 41:06
  I haven't done this work yet. I haven't done this assignment yet.
• 41:10
  You're opening up the possibility that maybe you will.
• 41:12
  And to me, that's the first step.
• 41:14
  That's the way you start to take control
• 41:17
  of your own internal dialog and start to make that work for you in your life
• 41:23
  rather than against you, is to change every I can't into an I haven't yet.
• 41:28
  And the thing is, you're not lying to yourself.
• 41:32
  It's not like pretending that you already have.
• 41:35
  It's actually accurate.
• 41:36
  It's focused, it's precise, and it's opening up the possibility that you might.
• 41:42
  And that's where we start.
• 41:43
  And I love that it's I haven't yet and that I might
• 41:47
  because then that's also
• 41:48
  I think it can get really problematic if you as a parent or a teacher,
• 41:52
  even for yourself, if you're always like, you can do anything,
• 41:56
  it's that puts an unrealistic expectation on you too.
• 42:02
  It creates the perfectionism.
• 42:03
  Exactly.
• 42:04
  It's the about, oh, you can do anything.
• 42:06
  You just have to put your mind to it.
• 42:08
  And it's like, no, you need to do more than that.
• 42:11
  But I do like the idea of like, you might be able to do it.
• 42:15
  Well. It's everything you talk about here.
• 42:16
  That's the foundation of the growth mindset, right?
• 42:19
  And that's the foundation of that lifelong learner.
• 42:21
  And then ultimately that lends itself to the ATL skill of like,
• 42:25
  you know, self-management, for example.
• 42:26
  Like, I can look after myself because I am aware of the things
• 42:30
  that I can do, and I'm aware of the things that I haven't done yet.
• 42:33
  Yes. And the process I need to do to get to those things.
• 42:36
  Excellent. That's exactly right, I love that.
• 42:38
  Yeah, that's really good.
• 42:39
  So I guess, you know, with that in mind, when we think about like the IBDP
• 42:43
  educational system itself and kind of all the things that are there,
• 42:47
  is it really just a good opportunity
• 42:50
  to really develop all these skills to essentially that philosophy,
• 42:54
  the approach of the IB diploma program, is it just there like an exercise
• 42:57
  in developing resilience, self-management and that sort of stuff?
• 43:00
  If it's approached from the right angle, like if we take it from the inside out,
• 43:04
  does it actually do all those things that we aim for?
• 43:06
  Or do you feel like the way that it's set up, the philosophy and that sort of stuff
• 43:09
  just sort of turn people into almost that more sort of fixed mindset?
• 43:12
  I got to get things right kind of approach.
• 43:15
  Well, I mean, it has the potential to be all the things that you mentioned.
• 43:20
  It's the best educational curriculum in the world.
• 43:22
  Absolutely.
• 43:24
  Because it contains that potential.
• 43:26
  The problem is always getting hijacked by the content.
• 43:32
  And so for a teacher, it's a difficult task.
• 43:36
  It's not an easy thing.
• 43:38
  But then if it was easy, everyone would have one.
• 43:40
  You know, of course it's difficult.
• 43:42
  It's difficult to develop resilience.
• 43:45
  But it is the most important thing
• 43:48
  because it lays the foundation for a self
• 43:52
  motivated, self managed child, learner.
• 43:58
  And so for a teacher,
• 44:01
  I think developing the affective
• 44:04
  skills is much more important
• 44:08
  than becoming a biologist or becoming..
• 44:12
  Much more important than the content.
• 44:14
  So, if I was a teacher, I would devote specific time
• 44:19
  to helping children to realize
• 44:23
  how they process inside their own head
• 44:29
  and how they can make that work for them, which is about resilience
• 44:34
  and perseverance and self-motivation.
• 44:37
  Because if that gets put in place, everything else becomes possible.
• 44:42
  But if it's the content that gets put in place first,
• 44:45
  then a child can easily get sucked down
• 44:50
  that rabbit hole of grade scores marks,
• 44:54
  and I'm not getting the marks I want, so I'm failing.
• 44:56
  So it's terrible.
• 44:57
  So my life is a mess. So what am I going to do?
• 45:00
  Pressure pressure stress stress stress stress stress
• 45:03
  which also happens with DP students.
• 45:05
  But I mean, I love working with grade 12 students
• 45:10
  because if they are in grade 12
• 45:15
  then they have learned how to do this.
• 45:17
  Usually.
• 45:18
  Well, I guess 50% of them, at least.
• 45:22
  And they're wonderful because they've realized that themselves.
• 45:25
  But I mean, I think that ultimately we need to have specific lessons
• 45:31
  on ATL skills.
• 45:32
  We need to be explicitly teaching them the most important skills
• 45:36
  that set them up as a resource for resilient learner.
• 45:40
  But we need to be teaching those explicitly and specifically,
• 45:43
  which means time. And of course, there is no time.
• 45:46
  So we've got to come up with a different way to do it.
• 45:49
  You got to create it, right?
• 45:50
  And I think any educator could listen to what we're talking about right now
• 45:54
  and recognize, you know, when you talk about that internal dialog,
• 45:56
  it's very easy to make the leap, not just in the self-management skill,
• 46:00
  for example,
• 46:01
  but you can see how an internal dialog that says, like, I haven't done this yet
• 46:05
  can support with like research skills, it can support with social skills
• 46:08
  it can support with the communication skills,
• 46:10
  with the thinking skills like how to think more critically.
• 46:12
  So you really do recognize, like I keep visualizing like a slingshot,
• 46:16
  you know, in terms of content, if it has to kind of go at this direction,
• 46:19
  I'm going to stop and I'm going to kind of like pull back into just like ways of
• 46:23
  thinking, powers of the mind and how I'm going to approach these things.
• 46:26
  And by investing that time almost kind of going
• 46:28
  for like a better term backwards a bit, once I've got those sort of skills, I'm
• 46:32
  going to slingshot through the content and actually catch up and have that time
• 46:36
  essentially what you were talking about at the top of the show.
• 46:39
  But I mean
• 46:40
  it's the one of the problems is that it's a very individual thing
• 46:43
  and different children get developed these skills at different ages.
• 46:47
  And within one class it's very difficult for a teacher to focus on,
• 46:53
  helping the ones who don't,
• 46:56
  who aren't proficient at managing their own mind.
• 47:01
  And continuing with the ones who do, you know.
• 47:06
  You just inspired me a ton though because that's our role as teachers right.
• 47:09
  Is to get to know our kids well, to understand each one and help them grow.
• 47:12
  So yeah look at that.
• 47:14
  The whole journey here.
• 47:15
  Now I'm like fully inspired.
• 47:18
  Thank you.
• 47:19
  Yes it's good.
• 47:22
  Are you an IB educator wanting
• 47:23
  to improve your practice and needing a just a bit more support getting there?
• 47:27
  Have you ever wanted to learn more about a specific aspect of the DP program?
• 47:31
  Or ask a question to an educational theorist about a specific IB aspect?
• 47:35
  IB Unplugged is the place for you.
• 47:37
  Simply visit kognity.com/ibunplugged to submit your question to us,
• 47:42
  and have your question explored in more detail in an upcoming episode.
• 47:46
  And now, back to the show.
• 47:50
  I think that, in the past, you
• 47:52
  one of the workshops that you've done with us was strictly on resilience.
• 47:56
  And I think maybe
• 47:56
  because of that workshop, maybe because it's just a really great part of it,
• 48:00
  that's one piece that really has resonated with me and stuck with me.
• 48:04
  And I think that it's something that you can argue
• 48:08
  is the main way you will succeed in the diploma program.
• 48:13
  Like if you don't build resilience, you are going to have
• 48:16
  an extremely difficult time getting through the diploma program.
• 48:20
  And so I think
• 48:22
  I like some of your examples, especially with the failing and things like that.
• 48:25
  But do you have any tips you were saying, how can you explicitly teach resilience
• 48:30
  for DP students?
• 48:32
  The difference between teaching
• 48:34
  cognitive skills and teaching affective skills to me is that
• 48:39
  if you're teaching
• 48:40
  cognitive skills
• 48:41
  like how to make a good exam, study timetable, how to summarize information,
• 48:45
  how to remember well, you as a teacher, you can give students
• 48:51
  practical examples of how other people do that.
• 48:56
  Because there are the best ways to summarize information, the best ways
• 49:00
  to remember, they're all there. They're very easy.
• 49:04
  But when we're teaching something like resilience,
• 49:07
  it's not something that I can say to you,
• 49:10
  this is the best way for you to become resilient.
• 49:14
  But if I explored your life in enough detail, I would be able
• 49:19
  to find moments in your life when you were astonishingly resilient.
• 49:24
  And it may not be in an academic situation.
• 49:26
  It may be in a completely different
• 49:27
  situation, but a time when you had to face something that was really difficult
• 49:31
  and you managed to pull yourself together, you managed to harness the resources
• 49:35
  and overcome that difficulty and get to a successful outcome.
• 49:39
  So how did you do that?
• 49:40
  You see, that's the key question is to utilize your own..
• 49:44
  You see,
• 49:46
  every student knows how to persist.
• 49:48
  They know how to persevere.
• 49:50
  They know how to self motivate.
• 49:51
  They know how to be resilient because they have done it somewhere in their life.
• 49:55
  But they may not relate that to an academic situation.
• 49:59
  It may have been on the football field when they fell over half a dozen times,
• 50:04
  but they managed to get themselves back up and get back into the game.
• 50:07
  How did they do that?
• 50:09
  You see, that's the thing to explore.
• 50:11
  So in all my books,
• 50:14
  the sections on affective skills,
• 50:19
  all well, part of them
• 50:20
  anyway, is about getting students to reflect on their own life,
• 50:24
  on moments when they were resilient and work out how they did that.
• 50:28
  Right.
• 50:29
  And then also, I get them to do exercises on role modeling, like find role models
• 50:35
  who you aspire to be like, who, you know, admire and look at their life.
• 50:40
  You know, so many young people, they admire people who might be famous
• 50:44
  in some sphere or other, but they never actually explore
• 50:47
  their life and discover how did they get there.
• 50:50
  And so I ask them to read biographies.
• 50:54
  I ask them to find out what actually happened
• 50:57
  in that person's life that enabled them to become so successful.
• 51:00
  And you always find,
• 51:03
  some key things.
• 51:04
  One is an extraordinary capacity for hard work.
• 51:07
  Another is the ability to learn from every experience.
• 51:11
  And the other
• 51:12
  is dealing well with failure, you know, overcoming failure, coming back strong,
• 51:16
  working at what you haven't done right yet
• 51:18
  and making a change to that and coming back and doing it again.
• 51:21
  All those things exist in every successful person's life.
• 51:24
  But if a child doesn't research and find out how
• 51:29
  their role model became so successful, then they don't realize that
• 51:34
  those are the things they need to develop in themselves.
• 51:36
  So I've created lots and lots of exercises for students
• 51:41
  on these, which are in my,
• 51:44
  student workbooks on ATL skills.
• 51:47
  And I guess these are the things that,
• 51:48
  you know, you're trying to pull out from the student as well,
• 51:50
  you know, as you were talking about, like, you know,
• 51:52
  you need to know from the individual student for them
• 51:54
  to kind of go into their own experience bank and pull out.
• 51:56
  What is that thing that made me think back to the root of the word educate,
• 52:01
  which is, of course, to draw out, to pull out from the individual,
• 52:04
  and that then maybe a little bit more inspired
• 52:06
  when we were talking earlier about, you know,
• 52:08
  some of the things that can be fearful for teachers when they say like,
• 52:10
  oh, I'm not going to be a subject specialist anymore.
• 52:12
  I need to be more on this other side.
• 52:14
  I need to start teaching these ATL skills.
• 52:16
  You know what concept came to mind is, a friend of mine, Declan Fleming,
• 52:19
  who's a phenomenal, teacher, he was introduces himself as
• 52:22
  I'm an educator.
• 52:24
  He doesn't say I'm a chemistry teacher.
• 52:25
  He says I'm an educator.
• 52:27
  And I think that's a really powerful, just way of looking at things like,
• 52:31
  it's my role to draw out these experiences from the young person.
• 52:35
  It's my role to help the student identify their internal dialog
• 52:39
  and what that's doing to their resilience development, their approach
• 52:42
  to learning skills, all these sort of things.
• 52:44
  And so I think, you know, for any educators out there
• 52:46
  who may be a little bit apprehensive of like thinking of themselves
• 52:50
  not as a chemist, not as a physicist or whatever it might be.
• 52:54
  But now I'm an educator.
• 52:55
  I draw out the best from others.
• 52:57
  Yes, to draw out rather than to feed in.
• 53:01
  And I think a lot of teachers do get hooked up into the feeding
• 53:05
  in because here's the syllabus, here's the content,
• 53:08
  and I have to feed it in and that's my task is to feed it in.
• 53:12
  Well, in fact, like you say, the more important thing you can do is to draw out.
• 53:17
  Yeah, yeah.
• 53:18
  And it's also suggesting to every student that they
• 53:22
  that I am not
• 53:25
  I can't teach you how to manage your own emotional state.
• 53:28
  I can't teach you and I don't have any right to
• 53:31
  I don't have any right to tell you how to feel.
• 53:34
  But I can help you to draw out.
• 53:37
  The more, the detailed and nuanced your own nuanced way
• 53:41
  of doing that, I can draw that, help you draw that out of yourself
• 53:44
  so you can look at it, and work with that and develop that more for yourself.
• 53:49
  So yes, the difference between drawing out and feeding in.
• 53:53
  Yeah.
• 53:54
  And so let's say, you know, if you get a school that kind of decides,
• 53:57
  like, right, we get all this, we want to buy into that,
• 53:59
  we want to focus in on this idea of like drawing out developing
• 54:02
  the ATL skills a little bit more than, let's say, the content,
• 54:05
  you know, and I can think of schools, you know, mine, for example,
• 54:08
  and a few others who explicitly report on ATL
• 54:11
  skills, for example, like we we want to show like this as an emphasis.
• 54:14
  This is an important thing.
• 54:15
  So it's something that shows up in our reports.
• 54:17
  It's something that we have our students reflect on.
• 54:19
  You know, we'll have teachers comment
• 54:21
  on your collaboration skills, your communication skills,
• 54:24
  all this sort of stuff to kind of pull that out.
• 54:27
  You know, in your opinion,
• 54:28
  does that help to support that overall philosophy of the ATL in general
• 54:32
  or does putting a mark to it or some sort of report
• 54:36
  that's like officially looked at?
• 54:37
  Does that suddenly like pull away from the original intent?
• 54:40
  I'm completely against the quantitative assessment of ATL skills.
• 54:46
  I don't see any point in doing that, in fact.
• 54:49
  And it's got to be a terrible burden on a teacher to actually take something
• 54:53
  like self-motivation and oh yeah, Johnny, I think he's a six for self-motivation.
• 54:58
  And I think, Mary no, she's a four.
• 55:01
  And it's ridiculous because it's totally subjective.
• 55:03
  It can't be done well.
• 55:05
  But I am a great fan of qualitative
• 55:08
  reflection on ATL skills.
• 55:11
  And so for a teacher to notice, to take notes throughout the year,
• 55:17
  because usually this is going back to parents, isn't it,
• 55:20
  to give parents some feedback on the children's ATL skills
• 55:23
  from the point of view of well, yes, he's doing this really well
• 55:27
  and seems to cope really well in this situation
• 55:30
  and seems to have these skills well developed.
• 55:32
  But when he's in this situation and these skills
• 55:35
  don't seem to be so well developed, so he could work on these skills.
• 55:39
  So a qualitative assessment I think is useful.
• 55:42
  A quantitative assessment I think doesn't help.
• 55:45
  In fact I think it's quite detrimental to the process of developing those skills
• 55:51
  because you see, the point really is that when a school
• 55:55
  has got a good ATL skills program in place,
• 55:58
  then all the normal assessment grades will go up.
• 56:02
  The average for the GCSE
• 56:05
  exam will go up, the average for the DP exam will go up.
• 56:08
  The average for all the normal summative assessments will go up.
• 56:13
  So you don't need to be assessing the ATL skills in isolation,
• 56:17
  because the effect of good ATL skills is to boost the results
• 56:21
  in all your normal assessments.
• 56:23
  And what I put in place in all of my work is self-assessment.
• 56:30
  So, to self-assess an ATL skill
• 56:32
  you've got to have a mastery statement.
• 56:35
  To define a mastery statement is
• 56:39
  what is the performance you
• 56:41
  would like to see from the students by the time they reach,
• 56:44
  and usually I make at the end of grade 12.
• 56:48
  So that's the ultimate mastery of the ATL skills by the end of grade 12.
• 56:51
  So as a grade nine students I'm looking at that as my mastery.
• 56:56
  I've got this full rubric of stages I can go through to get to that point,
• 57:00
  the rubric in terms of the process.
• 57:03
  And I can then, decide where they are.
• 57:07
  They could they can self-assess.
• 57:09
  And I just use one simple rubric for all ATL skills.
• 57:13
  So not turning each ATL skill into a rubric of its own,
• 57:17
  just one rubric, which is about skill development.
• 57:21
  I'm not very good at this.
• 57:22
  I'm getting better at this.
• 57:24
  I can now do it by myself.
• 57:26
  I can now do it without any teacher help.
• 57:29
  You know, that sort of progression.
• 57:31
  For all ATL skills, I think self assessment works really well,
• 57:37
  because it doesn't count.
• 57:39
  What I like about that is, you know,
• 57:40
  because so many times you might take like a qualitative statement
• 57:43
  and in order to standardize it or to put it in a rubric or something
• 57:46
  like that, you'd say, okay, here's the qualitative statement.
• 57:49
  And then sometimes we'll put like a word to describe that statement
• 57:53
  to make it a little bit simpler. Right?
• 57:54
  So just as you were mentioning before,
• 57:56
  like I can do this on my own, I can do this without much help.
• 57:58
  You might see some people say like, I'm a novice at this or I'm,
• 58:02
  you know, developing in this, I'm advancing this.
• 58:04
  I'm an expert in it, and that's her thing.
• 58:06
  But ultimately,
• 58:06
  I mean, does that not just sort of turn into another quantitative method?
• 58:10
  Like it's not a number, of course, but it's like,
• 58:13
  I mean, the students then just kind of walk around me like,
• 58:15
  I'm experts at this and, oh, I've only got a novice on this thing
• 58:18
  and I'm not, you know, do they suddenly kind of fall back
• 58:20
  into that quantitative style of thinking, even though the intention was to create
• 58:24
  a qualitative way of reflecting on the ATL development?
• 58:29
  That's a very good point.
• 58:30
  I mean, I guess I go back to the pragmatism
• 58:35
  of students. In order to develop an ATL skill,
• 58:39
  they have to see it as being beneficial to them.
• 58:41
  If it's not beneficial to them, then they won't do it or they'll
• 58:45
  do it for grudgingly.
• 58:47
  So if you have to show them
• 58:50
  that by becoming a good researcher, by being able to identify the different
• 58:55
  the primary and secondary sources, for example, that's a finite ATL skill,
• 59:01
  you have to show them that by learning that skill,
• 59:04
  they will actually be much better at inquiry learning,
• 59:07
  because they'll understand the difference
• 59:10
  between primary and secondary data. They'll go to the primary source.
• 59:13
  They'll always find the right data.
• 59:14
  They'll write better reports, they'll get better grades.
• 59:17
  It's going to work for them.
• 59:18
  So I think that the way is to get students to move up that,
• 59:24
  across that, rubric to the mastery level,
• 59:28
  it's got to have a pragmatic, practical application
• 59:33
  of improving the grades that they're getting in the normal assessment.
• 59:37
  You know, like, I mean, one of the simplest things
• 59:39
  I've always done for more than 30 years is teach memory skills.
• 59:45
  And I've never understood why schools
• 59:47
  don't have a class on memory because everyone can improve their memory.
• 59:52
  It's really easy to do, everyone can.
• 59:55
  And yet we don't teach kids how to remember.
• 59:58
  And yet we expect them to remember an enormous amount of information.
• 1:00:01
  We don't teach you how to do that.
• 1:00:02
  We just think, well, the smart ones will remember and the others won't.
• 1:00:05
  And that's just life.
• 1:00:06
  Well, I think that's tragic.
• 1:00:09
  I think it's a waste of talent.
• 1:00:12
  And so like there's a good example I can teach kids in ten minutes,
• 1:00:18
  I can show them that I can double their memory just like that.
• 1:00:21
  It's very, very easy to do with simple, simple exercises.
• 1:00:26
  And then suddenly what's happened for the student is they go,
• 1:00:30
  what just happened there?
• 1:00:33
  What have you done to me?
• 1:00:37
  I juggle, I can remember things.
• 1:00:39
  This is incredible.
• 1:00:40
  Yeah.
• 1:00:41
  And it's like I remember in England.
• 1:00:44
  I used to go to England and run school courses for students a lot.
• 1:00:48
  And, I developed this exercise on the Prime Minister's of England.
• 1:00:53
  Now, these are simple memory techniques, which is not the same
• 1:00:57
  as developing understanding, but it's still amazing for students.
• 1:01:01
  So, I get these students
• 1:01:02
  who never, ever thought of themselves as having a decent memory at all.
• 1:01:05
  They always thought that they were underachieving.
• 1:01:09
  And I had this list.
• 1:01:11
  I think in the list it had.
• 1:01:14
  I'm trying to remember it's quite a long time ago now.
• 1:01:17
  More than 40 names
• 1:01:19
  of British prime ministers, 40 names on the list,
• 1:01:23
  and I give them this page and I say, you're going to memorize all those names
• 1:01:26
  and you're going to memorize them in order,
• 1:01:28
  and you're going to do it in the next ten minutes.
• 1:01:30
  And they would all just.. They just think that's impossible.
• 1:01:33
  The internal monologue comes in, says, no, that's not happening.
• 1:01:36
  I haven't memorized this list yet.
• 1:01:40
  But ten minutes later they could do it,
• 1:01:43
  and they could do it, and they could share it with their friends.
• 1:01:46
  They could rattle off this list of 40 names.
• 1:01:50
  And they were so amazed.
• 1:01:52
  They were absolutely knocked out that
• 1:01:55
  ‘till half an hour ago, I thought I had a terrible memory.
• 1:01:58
  Now I realize that actually I have undiscovered
• 1:02:02
  ability, undiscovered talent I can remember well.
• 1:02:06
  Now that's just one little exercise.
• 1:02:09
  A very simple exercise.
• 1:02:11
  But what it does for the child is it boosts self-esteem.
• 1:02:14
  They suddenly feel like, hey, I can remember
• 1:02:18
  maybe I could remember my biology better.
• 1:02:21
  Maybe I could remember my languages better..
• 1:02:24
  And suddenly that creates the possibility of them
• 1:02:27
  investing more effort into those areas and becoming much better on this subject.
• 1:02:31
  So yeah, that's where it starts.
• 1:02:33
  So I think simple, simple exercises to develop the skills.
• 1:02:38
  Yeah. No, I think that's fantastic.
• 1:02:40
  And I think I want to wrap up with one last question, something that I think
• 1:02:45
  is really an interesting place for you to be as you develop this framework
• 1:02:49
  and you probably had a pretty good idea
• 1:02:53
  of how you thought it would play out.
• 1:02:56
  And then it probably did not play out that way in a lot of different cases.
• 1:03:01
  And I think, John, we were talking about earlier,
• 1:03:03
  he made this amazing, amazing scavenger hunt,
• 1:03:09
  and he gets he gets to the first clue and..
• 1:03:12
  What did you say?
• 1:03:12
  Zero people got it?
• 1:03:14
  They all ran in the opposite direction.
• 1:03:17
  I was like, oh, this will take him like 40 minutes.
• 1:03:19
  And then the first clue was like, it's right here in front of him.
• 1:03:21
  And they completely missed.
• 1:03:22
  And they just went like running
• 1:03:24
  in the opposite directions, like, oh my God, what have I done?
• 1:03:26
  We're going to be here forever. Yeah.
• 1:03:28
  And so I'm wondering if you are,
• 1:03:30
  on John's level of scavenger hunts when it comes to ATL’s.
• 1:03:34
  And did everybody run in a different direction
• 1:03:37
  that you thought they would, or is there anything that now
• 1:03:39
  that you've seen how it's played out, you would do differently anything
• 1:03:43
  like that, that you've now that it's stood the test of time?
• 1:03:49
  I'm sure I would do things differently, but no,
• 1:03:52
  I think it's been a very positive journey.
• 1:03:55
  I mean, in John situation, I mean,
• 1:03:57
  this is the advantage of having a failing, well, model at the back of your mind.
• 1:04:01
  So as soon as that happens, it's a wonderful opportunity to stop
• 1:04:04
  everyone and say, I just like to teach you something else for a minute.
• 1:04:08
  It's all about failing well.
• 1:04:11
  Yeah. Please come back. There's more.
• 1:04:14
  It's right here. Just go.
• 1:04:15
  Just go to the first one.
• 1:04:17
  But in general, I think that the ATL model
• 1:04:21
  has been picked up very well by teachers.
• 1:04:22
  And in general, teachers do regard it as being
• 1:04:26
  a very important aspect of their teaching.
• 1:04:30
  I've recently written this book.
• 1:04:33
  This is Teaching ATL skills, a book for teachers.
• 1:04:37
  Now, the key things in that book,
• 1:04:42
  are two things we've discussed already.
• 1:04:44
  One is the assessment and avoiding quantitative assessment.
• 1:04:49
  And using self-assessment in its place.
• 1:04:51
  I think that's vital.
• 1:04:53
  But the other is the necessity of teaching these skills
• 1:04:56
  explicitly, which requires time.
• 1:04:59
  I don't want to promote my stuff except to say that these are
• 1:05:03
  my skills books for students, and each one is a workbook
• 1:05:07
  that students can work through and learn the skills exercises.
• 1:05:13
  So the point that I'm trying to make is that if we want to
• 1:05:16
  explicitly teach students the ATL skills,
• 1:05:20
  we have to either start inserting
• 1:05:24
  explicit exercises into our lessons.
• 1:05:27
  So now I'm going to take you to what I said before,
• 1:05:29
  the difference between primary and secondary sources.
• 1:05:31
  Now there's a little exercise
• 1:05:32
  which would take maybe five minutes, ten minutes to do explicitly.
• 1:05:36
  So you do that at the beginning of a lesson,
• 1:05:38
  and then you get them in back into their inquiry.
• 1:05:40
  And they're starting to differentiate
• 1:05:42
  between primary and secondary sources in your own way.
• 1:05:44
  But you've had to dedicate ten minutes of that lesson to do it,
• 1:05:47
  which is difficult for some teachers.
• 1:05:49
  The second way is to use something like my books
• 1:05:53
  and to have students do the exercise at home.
• 1:05:56
  Tonight, I want you to do the exercise on the difference between primary
• 1:05:59
  and secondary sources.
• 1:06:00
  I want you to bring what you learned from that back to class tomorrow,
• 1:06:03
  and the next inquiry exercise we’ll do
• 1:06:06
  will have that built into it because you will have learned it for homework.
• 1:06:10
  The third way that I can think of is,
• 1:06:14
  is to have a,
• 1:06:17
  maybe an after school class.
• 1:06:19
  And I know this sounds tricky, but
• 1:06:22
  every DP student
• 1:06:24
  has a CAS project they have to complete, correct?
• 1:06:29
  Now, CAS, unfortunately, sometimes degenerates
• 1:06:32
  to going to the nearest old people's home and singing a song
• 1:06:42
  Yeah, I guess they must get what they need from it.
• 1:06:44
  And I suppose it does help the elderly, but the point is that
• 1:06:48
  what about if the in center was to run a class for younger students?
• 1:06:54
  So after school we have an ATL class run by DP students
• 1:06:59
  and any other students can come to that class and learn and ATL skill.
• 1:07:03
  And it's an ATL skill that the DP student has chosen
• 1:07:06
  because it was one that seemed to help them improve their grades.
• 1:07:10
  So we have this great improvement class run by DP students,
• 1:07:14
  which is a CAS project in itself, and it could be a huge CAS project
• 1:07:18
  that all students could be involved in by rotation.
• 1:07:21
  And what the benefit would be enormous for the younger students,
• 1:07:24
  because they'd learn the skills they need in order to go forward.
• 1:07:28
  And so it's always finding the time.
• 1:07:31
  So if we're not going to take the content out of the DP,
• 1:07:35
  then somehow we need to find the time to teach these skills explicitly.
• 1:07:39
  Oh the fourth method I haven't mentioned because it's
• 1:07:42
  almost heretical,
• 1:07:45
  is to have one hour per week
• 1:07:47
  as an ATL skills class for every single student.
• 1:07:51
  Yeah, so one hour per week.
• 1:07:53
  Somehow you have to squeeze an extra hour into the timetable,
• 1:07:56
  and there has to be a teacher, and there has to be some resources
• 1:07:59
  for the teacher to teach.
• 1:08:01
  If every student had one hour per week
• 1:08:04
  learning an ATL skill, just the skill,
• 1:08:08
  then every teacher could start using that skill after that
• 1:08:11
  because the students will have already got the skill.
• 1:08:14
  Now, I had a school in London.
• 1:08:17
  It was the Fahad Academy
• 1:08:21
  and they what they did was they set up that particular program.
• 1:08:24
  They set up an hour a week for every MYP student,
• 1:08:27
  and they bought all these books for their MYP students.
• 1:08:30
  So every student had a copy of this book.
• 1:08:33
  And so I went in and I ran a workshop with the teachers,
• 1:08:37
  teaching them how to teach from that book and how to get it across to the students.
• 1:08:42
  And I went away, and a year later I went back
• 1:08:45
  and I went back to the school and I talked to the teachers
• 1:08:47
  and said, well, how's it going?
• 1:08:48
  And they said, well, I don't know.
• 1:08:50
  It seems to be going alright. Yeah.
• 1:08:52
  They didn't have much to say.
• 1:08:55
  But then I went and talked to the students
• 1:08:57
  and I said to the students, how do you like the ATL class?
• 1:09:00
  And they said, we love it.
• 1:09:01
  And I said, why do you love it?
• 1:09:03
  And they said,
• 1:09:05
  because it doesn't count.
• 1:09:07
  Really?
• 1:09:08
  They said, because it doesn't count.
• 1:09:11
  Because every other class, every other every single thing that they did.
• 1:09:14
  And every other class, it counted.
• 1:09:16
  It was grades and scores and marks and it was count.
• 1:09:19
  The ATL class didn't count.
• 1:09:21
  They could actually do whatever they wanted
• 1:09:23
  with guidance from the teacher, and they could learn a skill.
• 1:09:26
  And when I went and looked at their books, they hadn't just done
• 1:09:30
  the exercises that we decided was going to be in the program for the year.
• 1:09:33
  They'd done all the other exercises, too, and I asked them, how come you two?
• 1:09:37
  And they said, we do it at our home time.
• 1:09:39
  This is like an owner's manual for school.
• 1:09:42
  That was a comment I got.
• 1:09:44
  This is like an owner's manual for school.
• 1:09:46
  This is how to do school.
• 1:09:49
  And you see, that's the whole point.
• 1:09:51
  But to do it like that, you have to have time.
• 1:09:55
  And so somehow this is the biggest problem
• 1:09:58
  in all education worldwide, not just IB,
• 1:10:03
  is how do you find the time?
• 1:10:05
  Where do you find the time?
• 1:10:06
  And can we find administrators
• 1:10:08
  bold enough and courageous enough to actually put a process focused lesson
• 1:10:13
  in the curriculum of every child, every week, to teach them the skills
• 1:10:17
  they need to cope with the learning challenges
• 1:10:20
  that they have at that year level, at that grade, at that moment.
• 1:10:24
  And so you plan the learning skills curriculum to perfectly match
• 1:10:27
  the content curriculum.
• 1:10:29
  So they're learning the skills they need when they need them,
• 1:10:32
  and they've got that skill.
• 1:10:33
  And then suddenly they the teachers can start using it
• 1:10:36
  and it encourages the teachers to use more inquiry learning,
• 1:10:39
  because they know that the students coming to the class have already got
• 1:10:42
  the skills they need to handle inquiry learning.
• 1:10:45
  And so to me, that's the solution.
• 1:10:47
  And that's the next step forward.
• 1:10:48
  And that's what I wrote that book, for teachers all about.
• 1:10:52
  So to me that's where we've got to go.
• 1:10:54
  But what I, what I like about what we've said so far
• 1:10:56
  is that like, okay, even if you're at a school
• 1:10:57
  that can't do that, they can't do that sort of one hour week kind of thing.
• 1:11:01
  So much of what you've mentioned here is kind of like..
• 1:11:04
  They can do it, John.
• 1:11:06
  They just haven't done it yet.
• 1:11:09
  But no, a big part of it is just like that awareness of,
• 1:11:14
  of the mindset, sort of like, how am I there's the payoff,
• 1:11:17
  there's all this sort of stuff
• 1:11:17
  that's going to be the buy in and that sort of stuff.
• 1:11:19
  And so it's really like being flexible and demonstrating that flexibility
• 1:11:23
  in our own selves.
• 1:11:24
  Like,
• 1:11:24
  don't be so fixed, don't be so controlled by the content..
• 1:11:29
  Have some flexibility.
• 1:11:30
  Take that risk and take the time to really invest in that skill,
• 1:11:34
  recognizing that slingshot is still going to come into play
• 1:11:37
  and you'll catch up on some of that other stuff.
• 1:11:39
  So, you know, when you prioritize the great ways
• 1:11:43
  of how to learn, learning becomes better.
• 1:11:47
  As opposed to if I prioritize content, content content
• 1:11:50
  doesn't necessarily mean my learning is going to get a lot better.
• 1:11:52
  It just means I'll get a lot.
• 1:11:53
  I'd get through the content,
• 1:11:55
  and getting through the content is one of these pet peeves that I always have
• 1:11:57
  when I talk with teachers who are just like, yeah,
• 1:11:58
  I need to get through the content.
• 1:12:00
  Like, well, certainly education is more than getting through, right?
• 1:12:03
  It's something more than what we want to get from that.
• 1:12:05
  So, I think even if you can't get that one hour a week,
• 1:12:09
  you can still shift a little bit of that mindset,
• 1:12:11
  try to break free of that fixed approach to the content.
• 1:12:13
  And just saying, I have some control here.
• 1:12:15
  Yeah. Absolutely.
• 1:12:16
  It's helping teachers to take a dual focus, a focus on process
• 1:12:21
  and content in every lesson.
• 1:12:25
  That's all ATL is attempting to do, I think.
• 1:12:28
  Yeah.
• 1:12:29
  Lance, thank you so much for this.
• 1:12:31
  This has been such a joy to talk about it.
• 1:12:33
  It's been a really yeah, a great conversation.
• 1:12:36
  I feel like I could keep this going for a really long time,
• 1:12:40
  except, our time difference of 12 hours is not conducive to that.
• 1:12:44
  But we would love to
• 1:12:47
  continue this conversation another time, see what else we can learn.
• 1:12:50
  I think a lot of teachers will get a lot out of it.
• 1:12:53
  Absolutely. Yeah. This has been a ton of fun for me.
• 1:12:55
  Thanks for taking the time, Lance.
• 1:12:56
  Really, really enjoyable to speak with you about these things.
• 1:12:59
  Thank you, Court.
• 1:13:00
  Thank you John. It's been great.
• 1:13:02
  IB Unplugged is a Kognity podcast hosted by
• 1:13:04
  John Patton and Courtney Marline and produced by Katilina Gaffney.
• 1:13:08
  Be sure to subscribe or follow and share with your fellow IB educators.
• 1:13:12
  If you'd like to submit a topic, request, or question, please do
• 1:13:15
  so on kognity.com/ibunplugged.
• 1:13:18
  Let's keep the conversation going
• 1:13:19
  and support each other in teaching with confidence, creativity, and joy.
• 1:13:23
  See you next time.