Latest / Houselights: A Film Director Podcast / First Knight (1995) - Jerry Zucker | Houselights #151: Wing of King Arthur

Transcript

First Knight (1995) - Jerry Zucker | Houselights #151: Wing of King Arthur · Houselights: A Film Director Podcast

0:03
Welcome to the nerd Party. Hello everybody at home, and welcome to House
0:23
Lights, specifically wing of King Arthur. That's right. We are continuing our
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series of looking at a character analysis of the Arthurian legend of King Arthur and
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how each director has their own unique take on that character. And so today
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we are talking about Jerry Zucker's take with nineteen ninety five First Night. And
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that's right, the Jerry Zucker, the person known for ghost and Airplane and
0:55
top secret in films like that, did First Night. So this was kind
1:00
in the art for him. He had done that. I am your co
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host, Tristan Radell, and with me, as they always are, is
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John Mills and Darren Moser. Darren, how are you doing tonight? I'm
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doing good. It's uh. You were talking about the wide variety and I'm
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just thinking back on the last few weeks and oh boy, have we gone
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up and down and sideways with this legend. And but it was really interesting
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jumping from an eighties picture to a nineties like literally a decade of filmmaking,
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changes effects, all sorts of things, so and and a different telling of
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the story. Yet still beautiful Lancelot, always beautiful. Lancelot. John.
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Yes, John, that's me. I am so I am so excited to
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talk to you tonight. I know you are. I am genuinely excited.
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For those of you who don't know, actually none of you know because unless
2:00
you're you know why you're tapping our phones. But John and I have been
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texting about this movie. Yes, because very normally, normally we we play
2:07
at coy when we talk about first Night start, when we talk about a
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movie and about you know, like when we're when we're on the podcast,
2:15
no one is really you know, showing their hand. We stay there for
2:20
the show. We what we say, and at the beginning of the show,
2:24
we usually just kind of talk about what we know about the movie when
2:28
it was the first time we watched it, and we don't really get how
2:30
we feel until maybe the middle of the show or even sometimes towards the end.
2:35
Yeah, that's true. But sometimes towards the beginning. Sometimes people sometimes
2:38
I had at the beginning. Occasionally we try sometimes you know, like this
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this movie starring Sean Connery, Richard Gere and Julia Ormond and John. You
2:50
know, instead of asking you when you first saw this film, I'm going
2:53
to ask you when did you first fall in love with this film? I
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would say the better question is when is the last time I'll ever watched this
3:01
film? And I can tell you it's both the first time that I watched
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this film this you know, Darren, you mentioned there you go, oh,
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well, you know we see the eighties versus the nineties, and I
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wasn't a particular fan of ex caliber. It's right at that that Bridget has
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said a lot about it. Seventies, it's right there. Uh, this
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is definitely mid nineties. And this definitely if there's an aroma of nineties film
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and somebody like, we're to say to me, what does a nineties film
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smell like, I'd be like, I would pull First Night off the shelf
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and I'd wafted it underneath their nose, and I'd be like, that is
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what a nineties film. That's the essence of it right there, where you
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have Okay, we're in the wing of King Arthur. Obviously this is actually
3:49
Lancelot's movie and everything, yep. Because they couldn't afford Sean Connery for more
3:54
than they had him, I guess. And it is one of those things
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where this very much has that the concept of a Hero changed in the nineties.
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It does every decade, like it gets refined. It reflects, you
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know, sort of the the cultural lean of the time, perfectly normal.
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But this definitely was not an arrow where I enjoyed too many Hero movies.
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You have your exceptions, like Braveheart and stuff like that, but First Night
4:27
would definitely fall into the category of I didn't care for the main character nor
4:30
how he was portrayed, because it was very, for lack of a better
4:35
term, boy band. And so that's that's the footing I'm coming off of
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boy band. Oh yes, oh yes, this is this is a Lancelot
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who would have been listening to Backstreet Boys while he was practicing his his his
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sword maneuvers and stuff like that. Well, this movie came out, I
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mean in nineteen ninety five that we had some heavy hitters. We had,
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we had bad men forever, we had Casper, Billy Mattis, Show Girls
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two. Hung Foo's point right right now, Tommy Boy trying to yeah,
5:12
Mortal Kombat. So yeah, I mean, God, God help me.
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I like Mortal Kombat more than I liked this movie, and I admitterally have
5:20
a soft spot for more I do. I have a soft spot I was
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gonna I was, I was going to give you some rope until that.
5:29
Okay, so you know ida real hard I'm saying I have. I have
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a soft spot for Mortal Kombat. It's a movie that I like more than
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I should because it's just I was. It was part of the Mortal Kombat
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craze, and so every time I watched it, I'm kind of like,
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oh, yeah, I remember that. But of the ones you went down
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there, probably Tommy Boy was the one I liked most. Ninety five was
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an interesting year for movies, Darren. When was the first time you watched
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this film? Oh? This week, I think both and John and I
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it's our first time catching this movie. Oh that's so awesome, because I
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have enough of enough nostalgia for all of that. Yes, now, always
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make the joke it's either a movie I've never heard of or it's a family
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favorite. And I'm guessing family favorite. Oh good lord, this was.
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This was very much a family favorite. Like we we we had this on
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VHS. We watched it all the time, and I actually texted my parents
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as I was watching it, And there was something that we always did when
6:27
we watched it, like towards the end with the final battle, when you
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know, people were getting maimed left and right and getting bolts in the chest
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and everything, and we would try to track how many round table nights got
6:41
injured, and we're like, oh, okay, that one's okay. That
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one got a bolt to the to the side, to the liver, he's
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probably okay. Like oh, that one just got one too the arm,
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this, he's probably okay. And that's how into the movie we were like
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we were we were just like, you know, looking at it from that
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angle and you know, analyzing everything, and just like we would have jokes
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about this movie. We would we would reference it all the time. So,
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yeah, this was this was something I was minorly worried about watching,
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although I watched it not that long ago, but like when I watched it
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in preparation for this podcast, I was like, Okay, Tristan, you
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got the nostalgia goggles on, you know, put your big boy pants on
7:21
as well when you watch this, put your podcaster's hat. I had the
7:26
full asymmetrical shirt on. It's a sacred duty. We take this very seriously,
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like we prepare ourselves. There's there's a whole ritual of abolutions and breathing
7:38
exercises, so that we watched the films InCred oil on the walls as well
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as the forehead. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely, yeah, And so I
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tried to do all that in preparation for this to like say like, Okay,
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if there's flaws, find them. If there's glory, praise, beaty
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heat. So yeah, it was this was a struggle back and forth trying
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to make sure that might like adult tris didn't didn't trample childhood trister and vice
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versa. So one thing I would I would I want to talk about first
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is I know this is a director's podcast, but before we get into Jerry
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zucker and in his direction, because John, you know, like you,
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you know you you kind of hinted at it with it being super nineties and
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Super ninety five, I want to talk about the cast first, because this
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cast, I think it is quite unique in it's it's got some heavy hitters,
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especially for the time, because you know, you've got Sean Connery is
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King Arthur and older King Arthur, and you have Richard Gear's Lancelot, Julia
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Romande is Guinevere bin Cross is Maligant, the Big Batty, and even then
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didn't even try. But hey, look his look was very like not period,
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but you know he didn't have to give up any other roles for his
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haircut sort of thing that didn't have to put anything on the haircut, is
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what I mean. Yeah, so apparently, like Prince Maligan, it was
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almost went to or I should say like it was like a Refines was considered
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and Jeremy Irons was considered, and I was like JS, like, just
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I wouldn't even need to fight. He just show up and creep everybody else.
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Yeah, it would work perfectly, especially in the nineties. He would
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be like it would be like apoclept now where he doesn't even read the script.
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He just starts talking and they work at ends. Jeremy in ninety five.
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I'm just because I I'm more used to him being older now. I
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almost feel like I want Jeremy Irons, but I want old Jeremy Irons because
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I kind of like the dynamic of, you know, older Sean Connery and
9:41
older Irons pitting against each other. I would argue that Irons could play older
9:46
as necessary because because of his voice and because of his because the way he
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carries himself. He's always carried himself a little older than he actually crossed a
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lot of as a boy man. He's just trying to play king. Jeremy
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Irons was forty seven, Okay, definitely old enough. Yeah, and a
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little gray he'll be Oh wait, I think I think Ben Cross and jerem
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Arons are about the same. Che there you go, perfect. You know
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you mentioned Prince Maligan and you know, Darren, I definitely want to get
10:18
back to costume notes because I feel like we don't talk about costumes enough on
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this show and movie to talk about it. It sure is, it sure
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is. But I think even more importantly is, Look, there's plenty of
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stuff that Jerry Zucker has worked on that I've really loved. Okay, Airplane
10:35
is not a great movie, but it's a great parody, you know,
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involved in Police Squad and Naked Gun, some of just absolutely stunning comedies through
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time. Ghost was a thing we all got swept up in the craze it
10:50
happened. Never want to hear that Righteous Brothers song again in my life.
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But it is interesting that this doesn't feel like there is a director with a
11:05
vision sitting in that chair. This feels like this is a person showing up
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to make a movie and you know, have the script shot and everything like
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that. But I don't get a sense of somebody sitting down and having a
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need to tell this story so much as which is strange, you know,
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because this was his follow up to Ghost. So this feels like his blank
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check movie. This feels like could have been want to do an Arthurior legend
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and they're like, have some money, you know, please, you know,
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give us something. But I'm just guessing. But yeah, well,
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I mean he directed this, he also produced it, and his I think
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his his daughter also produced it, and his parents were in it. His
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granddaughter was in it, like like this was like a family affair, and
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so this was very much his movie. Now, whether or not that came
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across, I would say that that that That's what I would say, Please
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shoot me down. I'm I'm willing to be swayed on this because I'm sitting
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here. I'm like, I want to talk to get it. I want
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to talk about it. No, Okay, that's interesting that you bring that
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up, because there was I went online and I started reading about you know
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what people think this this movie, Like Darren, you and I have talked
12:24
before, and how I you know, like I go to letterbox and I
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read as soon as I'm done watching a movie. For this podcast, I
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go to letterbox and see what people think about it. A lot of people
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I think about this consult the internet. A lot of people didn't have nice
12:37
things to say about it, And there was specifically the tone and the atmosphere.
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They felt like it should have been more foreboding. I don't particularly agree
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with that. It did have a storybook feel like when like just a little
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bit like when they're you know, coming over the mountain and there's camel lot,
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like in the most Beautiful Matt Painting you know ever like it for this
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ninety five? Okay, okay, no, John, John, What's what's
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throwing you off? The Matt painting was fine? What's throwing you off?
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Is the god awful blue screen? No, it was the god awful hill.
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It was a walking up yeah yeah, yeah, it almost ruins.
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The shot was very almost they got over the hill. She's almost Okay,
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so positive. I want to talk positives for a second. I want to
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talk about at around some of the visuals, because there were some amazing shots
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in this movie, like when they have the top down shot of the round
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table and they all pull out their swords and they like perfectly lined, Like
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I got like goosebumps, like, oh yeah, that is how you do
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a round table shot in an OAR theory and legend. They're like, okay,
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we're gonna dock our swords into the table and you see the one space
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open and it's and then they you know, quickly reveal like why and uh
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yeah, I love that little weird when U when Richard Gear was kind of
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like having to read the table and craning his neck. Not gonna lie,
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that was a little odd. But but some of the battle shots, like
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when they're coming out of the night and all you're seeing is the glint of
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moonlight on their armor. It is terrifying. And you know, granted it's
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a little weird that, you know, all the bad guys are way more
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lit by the moonlight, you know, and torches, but hey, don't
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even care because it looked amazing, So I will give it. There were
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some shots where I was really impressed with those moments. Yes, that shot
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in particular, I really tried to memorize that shot because I was I sort
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of thinking it was like one thing about this about this movie and This may
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sound like at Tangent, but it's not. Is the uniformity and the pre
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sentational nature of Camelot where it's organized. It's not like if you look at
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something like Excalibur and and other you know, Arthurian legend movies, when you
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see Camelot, it's usually like, oh, we're building they're building Camelot,
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or it doesn't really have the gravitas that we know of the legend. In
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this movie, Camelot is Camelot, and it's been Camelot for a while.
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And so when you see Guinevere come to King Arthur for the first time as
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his fiance, and there like the very militaristic presentation of the torches and they
15:41
march apart from each other and then it reveals King Arthur in the distance.
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You know, that's another fantastic shot. You have the uniformity. And with
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that shot Darren that you're talking about with all the armor you know coming actually
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and everything like that. It made me think about like how how easily we
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swit swede we are with visuals and music, because if those were stormtroopers it
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would be foreboding. But these are the good guys and they were still foreboding
16:11
for the bad guys like you, Like if I was a bad guy,
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I'd be like, nope about I know, even if we outnumber them,
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I'm just no they I'm just gonna run and high in the ditch. And
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also that shot when they light the arrows one by one as it goes across,
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like there's there's many visuals in here, and so I think John,
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I would love a little bit more specificity on your your comment about lack of
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vision because to me, are you talking about or like images but more like
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plot. I'm talking very specifically about. I don't get the sense that there
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was some sort of burning story to get across here. I don't get that
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there, and I fault completely the fact that there is no chemistry between Arthur
17:03
and Lancelot. I do not get any sense of brotherhood, which would make
17:08
the betrayal feel worse, would make the betrayal land. That's kind more side
17:14
to him just joining versus like he wasn't there during the building. He's the
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last night, he's the last night to join the table. I just don't
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Gear and Connery are both great actors in their own right, but I don't
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get any sort of I'm looking at a picture on my screen right now,
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screen chemistry, Travolta and Jackson and pulp fiction. Right, you have that
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screen chemistry. I need that screen chemistry between Lancelot and Arthur to believe that
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what's under Arthur's skin is anything other than my wife who's forty years younger than
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me, found another man who's thirty years younger than me, and well they
17:57
had more in common than they did with either. You know, I'm the
18:02
old man in this group. Like, there's no sense of a relationship built,
18:07
and I think that is a fault of the Zucker. Like I said,
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I have no problem with him as a director, but I don't get
18:17
a sense of somebody saying, Okay, we need a focus, we need
18:19
to trim this down, and I can't have this. What's the point of
18:26
that crawl in the beginning, Oh my gosh, yes, there's no point
18:30
to it. It's so, what's the point of Lancelot doing the thing with
18:33
the guy you know where he like, you know, he's doing this is
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what I do with that guy in this in the first act than he does
18:42
with Arthur. You're totally right, But the movie basically starts three times and
18:48
by that point, I've kind of mentally checked out and I just don't I
18:53
don't get the chemistry. And then let's says Alot, going and rescuing Gwenevere
19:02
from the cave. It does not feel like an organic sort of like.
19:07
It feels very staged. It feels stage play staged, where the way that
19:12
it's shot, the way that it's cut, everything's very It didn't land with
19:18
me at all, and so I'm like, this is your big action set
19:21
piece right here where I'm supposed to see that they can't deny the spark between
19:23
each other, and all I really see is just two actors going through some
19:29
safety regulated motions on a big gimbal and It's like that doesn't have any magic.
19:34
And so when I say vision, I mean I don't see somebody sitting
19:40
there saying I'm trying to make this point by telling the story this you feel
19:48
versus what are you trying to show? Them? Right? I It's it's
19:53
interesting because I really wish we knew what was on the cut room floor,
20:00
because apparently there was a three hour cut. I'm willing to bet much better.
20:04
I'm willing to bet that that's probably the cut that I'm like that's the
20:07
one that works, because I never really thought about that before with the lack
20:12
of chemistry between Connery and Gear. I mean, I'm not saying you're wrong
20:18
at all. I'm not saying you're wrong at all. It just didn't affect
20:23
me too terribly much because it too in this movie Connery as King Arthur,
20:30
he felt like the king who was mainly the king, and he was the
20:36
one of the of the love triangle. He's the one on the outside,
20:41
he's the high pot news. You know, He's the one where like it's
20:45
you're mainly focused on Lancelot and Guinevere. I mean, this is Lancelot's movie.
20:49
It's about his relationship with Guinevere, and King Arthur is kind of just,
20:53
you know, is the third wheel. And so I really thought that
20:59
Connery and Roman had a lot of chemistry. I really felt like Gear and
21:03
ormand had chemistry. I really did believe that she was falling for this rogue
21:07
when she would when like her heart was falling for this rogue, when her
21:11
you know, her will was falling for the king. Like I love that
21:15
moment when you know, like Connrie was was when Arthur was confronting Guinevere after
21:22
you know, the kiss was revealed about how to me? To me?
21:27
I feel like, John, don't take this too pointedly. I feel like
21:33
you might be having a bit more of a modern take on that relationship,
21:38
about the whole like, oh, you know, how could I how could
21:41
I see? You know, how could I be surprised that my wife who
21:45
was forty years younger than I. Oh no, that's just me, that's
21:48
just me being funny, right, Oh, okay, I'm just I'm just
21:51
more talking about the chemeray. I mean to talk to how the relationships played
21:55
out, like at all. Right, but but you to your point about
21:56
Connery and Ormond having chemistry. I know this will sound dumb, but Connery
22:03
had you know, he could have chemistry with a lot of people. He
22:06
doesn't sound dumb. That doesn't sound dumb at all. Like Conry could have
22:08
chemistry with with with anyone. And it's just one of those things where like
22:17
the one thing I there are things I like in the movie, like you're
22:21
talking about his chemistry with Orman. I think one of the best scenes for
22:26
them to have written. One of the best pieces of dialogue is when he
22:30
gives her the choice not to marry him, and he says, I'll defend
22:33
your I forget what the name of the kingdom is, but he's like,
22:34
I'll defend your kingdom anyway. You don't have to marry me to do this.
22:38
Yeah, and like, if anything, that that's why, But that's
22:45
why, that's why it should hurt more when he gets betrayed. And I'm
22:48
like, I don't even get that sort of echo later, So maybe there's
22:52
more in that longer do you guys feel because it's a it's a I Initially
22:59
when I was starting it, I was like, Okay, this is a
23:02
different story, Like I get My ultimate question is does this break the Arthurian
23:08
legend, Like does it not work in these ways that we're finding because it
23:15
is trying something different, which I think is interesting, Like it's interesting having
23:19
a completed Camelot, having an older Arthur. But like you're saying, John,
23:25
we don't get the brothers in arms that we got in some of the
23:29
other pictures of Lancelot being one of the founding members of the round Table and
23:33
being with Arthur and then falling for Gwenevere and that betrayal sinking in. So
23:40
did you know, did setting it up like peak Camelot find the flaws that
23:48
when you make that change, then it's not the Arthurnian legend anymore. It
23:55
doesn't hit the main beats that it should. You're not feeling what you should.
23:59
Well, it kind of it kind of depends because you know, like
24:03
there's there's about two main legends when it comes to Arthurian legends, and I
24:10
am blanking on the names. I cannot even begin to attempt to say them,
24:17
nor do I remember exactly what you are. But there was one that's
24:19
kind of the older one that most things are based off of, like that
24:22
you have like Excalibur and previous one Arthur was it the French one? Is
24:29
that? Is that what it's called? I think that's it? And then
24:30
you have another one that's later on that actually introduces Lancelot and as a French
24:41
night. And I cannot remember the name of that one either, But like
24:45
because Lancelot wasn't even in the original legend and and in the and in the
24:52
other famous one where Lancelot is created, he's not a founding if I remember,
24:56
if I'm remembering correctly, And please guys on you know online, feel
25:00
free to let correct me. Don't make him polite, be vicious. He's
25:06
not a founding member of the round Table. He was actually brought in to
25:11
protect Camelot Wall. Arthur is off on a crusade for the Holy Grail and
25:19
so and that's when he betrays. That's when Guenevera and and betray Arthur.
25:25
And so we don't in in in an old in the in the original Lancelot
25:30
legend, we don't really get that brotherhood. We don't get that that camaraderie
25:36
from the beginning. It's just this person that that Arthur trusts because he was
25:41
told to trust him and because you know, he believed in him. So
25:47
so when I when I saw that betrayal scene, I actually I loved how
25:52
it was shot and I loved Connery's acting in it because when they walk in
25:59
and and their mid embrace like there's no yeah, there's no like oh my
26:04
god, no, oh like hey, so what were you you were going
26:10
to give me those TPS reports right like your friends where he's like checking her
26:14
teeth up. Yep. It was a it was a great kids like I'm
26:17
not fooled, yeah, nothing, nothing like that. And so like I
26:19
love that. I thought it was slow motion. Well utilized they were caught,
26:23
and I love how aggravan by the great Liam Cunningham. Well, it
26:29
was just like, noope, that's drama. I'm not gonna but see.
26:33
But see, that's Zucker's natural comedy instincts coming into play. He knows how
26:37
to make a character exit in such a way that it gets that reaction from
26:41
us. So that's where I see Zucker's strength coming through. Don't know if
26:45
that was an intended comedic bit, though, I I absolutely will stand by
26:49
that because that is actor and director knowing the timing necessary to have the right
26:56
reaction that cuts tension without blowing up the scene. And that's a really well
27:02
played moment. You know what. But if you don't want me to give
27:06
too much credit in a moment to a movie like this, I'm perfectly happy
27:08
to withdraw the comment Tristan with I just I loved Connor's acting in that,
27:14
because like he looks like he just got punched in the gut, and it's
27:18
not It didn't feel like overacting either, Like this this is peak moment,
27:22
like you said, when he gave her the choice and she chose him,
27:26
and then she didn't choose him, and you you're like, oh man,
27:30
that is rough and I felt like that, Like that is where I get
27:37
the I can understand not liking Lancelot like a Richard Gear's Lancelot. I can
27:41
totally get that because he's a different kind of personality for this. Like this
27:45
film actually got a lot of flack in ninety five because of Richard Gear's portrayal
27:49
of Lancelot. I you know, John, you were talking about you know,
27:56
kind of like different sensibilities and things like that, Like there are two
28:00
main sensibilities, and I want to get your guys' opinions on this. There
28:03
are two main sensibilities that are very mid nineties. Where Richard Gear is basically
28:08
the American Lancelot yep, where he is han solo. He's the guy who
28:15
comes in everybody wants to be him. He's like, I got no cares
28:18
in the world. I could kill you with his sword just by looking at
28:21
you, you know, like and he said, like I got the devil
28:23
make care attitude, I got the looks, I got the bravery, the
28:27
women want me everything like that, Like this this is Lancelot. He's not
28:32
duty bound. He's like the French Knight of Lancelot. And in the old
28:37
Legends is very much like he's a he's a warrior with a code and armor,
28:41
and he travels the countryside and like he's protector of virtue and everything like
28:45
that. And that's why that's what makes the Downfall much harder, where all
28:49
of the other you know, Nights Sea Lancelot and they're just like this guy,
28:53
I don't know. He's kind of sketchy anyway. And but with Guinevere,
28:59
I feel like if if you look at the progression of what we've seen,
29:02
like I guess we've only seen Guenevere once before because we didn't really see
29:04
her in in Holy Grail, or she wasn't really featured in Monty Python.
29:10
That's right true, but she wasn't at caliber. If you look at the
29:12
eighties version of Guinevere just there to be naked and just be there to be
29:17
a prize, to be one. And then when you look at Guinevere in
29:21
the nineties, she's still a damsel in distress, but she's not an idiot,
29:26
she's not helpless, she's constantly fighting back. She's she's the leader of
29:30
her people. I like her coming from another country and she's not just his
29:33
plus one. I want to. I want to ask you guys about Guenevere's
29:37
portrayal, like what you thought about from a nineties perspective, Well, this
29:41
is that this is definitely if if Lancelot is han solo, she's Princess Leah,
29:47
and it's I mean, it's that sort of sensibility where it's like,
29:49
Okay, we're gonna put her in danger because Lancelot has to rescue her.
29:55
But she's you know, playing you know, early soccer, I guess or
30:00
something like, you know, soccer, rugby or whatever, you know,
30:03
and she's you know, she's of her she's royalty, but she's all the
30:08
people, and she's she doesn't want, you know, she she doesn't want
30:14
to worry too much about titles and those sorts of things. So she's she's
30:18
the type of noble that we all in our heads like to think nobles are
30:22
going to be. Yeah, I mean, if you're going to have her
30:27
be a character, this is the type of character I want to see her
30:30
be because it's interesting and she has a purpose other than just you know,
30:37
that wouldn't be interesting at all. I think Julia Ormond as Guenevere is a
30:41
plus. She belongs in the pros column of First Night zero. What does
30:47
you may be Darren? What did you what did you think about the betrayal
30:51
of Guenever? And also have you seen King Arthur of the Next Decade,
30:56
the movie King Arthur that we're going to review next week. I have not
31:00
seen that either, so we're slowly making our way through. Yeah, I'm
31:03
going to ask this question again next week. That that next one's Antoine Fuqua,
31:07
right, that's right. This is when heroins didn't need to know kung
31:15
fu. Right. There was a moment I'm trying to remember when it was,
31:19
but there was one moment where I thought she was going to like pick
31:23
up a sword and help, and she didn't. And I'm kind of glad
31:26
because I don't think it would have fit. But I want to talk about
31:30
I love the boat scene because it turns her getting recaptured. I don't mind
31:37
her being recaptured because it's because the villains were smarter. That is a brilliant
31:45
tactic, like the whole you know, popping out of the water and the
31:48
you know, the block and tackle running back to a horse. I'm like,
31:52
oh, man, like that is because all you gotta do is move
31:56
faster than the people trying to chase her and you can get away. Now.
32:00
Granted it seems like it's not too far to the you know, crazy
32:06
cave, but yeah, I really like that sequence. Anytime you have a
32:09
smart villain that does smart things. I'm not saying this villain is smart overall
32:14
this in this moment, he is smart. But and I'm also not surprised
32:20
that, you know, again pivoting to the villain, like, I'm not
32:22
surprised that he comes in at the end, Like we literally have a line
32:27
drop of open the gates, let the people come in and fitness, and
32:30
I'm like, I wonder, what's gonna happen, Arthur, you open the
32:35
gates. It's not a good And then even then they had that forked plank
32:39
to stop the portcullis, and I'm like, oh, I don't want to
32:43
root for the bad guy, but they're making so many good choices. Strong
32:46
swimmers too have gone underwater that it was heavy armor, and they swam underwater
32:53
and held their breath for exactly the right amount of time, and they disguise
32:58
themselves as sheep. I mean, the people are amazing. It was very
33:01
very We all saw the sheep thing a mile away. That was very obvious
33:05
that those were bad. It was completely fooled for me, like with that,
33:10
like I do, I do love the sacking of Camelot, but at
33:14
the same time, like watching this as an adult, I was just like,
33:15
man, was it really that easy to sack out right? Right?
33:20
It seems like, you know, camel I could have had better defenses,
33:23
but it needs like you know, the people doing up at the at the
33:29
up at the at the gate, at the gate, what were they doing?
33:31
What were they Were they laughing and scratching? Were they playing dice?
33:34
You know? What was going on? The entranceway. The entranceway was that
33:39
long, thin, really narrow path that's like water on both sides. It's
33:45
like that looks really easily defendable if you really don't want people to like,
33:50
even if they stick, you know, prop open the port colors, you
33:52
can still shoot a dozens of arrows into the bad guys as they rush to
33:57
your tower. Yeah. I think that was definitely a moment though. It
34:00
was cool, and you're right, Darren, that it was you know,
34:02
there was a bad guy being smart at the same time it's that okay,
34:07
well it's like dumb. Yeah, that's why, like like my dad would
34:13
say, it's a movie, shut up. Yeah. And that's the thing
34:16
is I can I can project myself back to ninety five and yeah, I
34:24
don't. I don't know if when this came out, I would have had
34:28
a girlfriend, but I must not have because I could easily see myself getting
34:34
dragged to this back then and not hate like this. This is this is
34:38
something where I think, in all honesty, it probably at the time would
34:44
have played fine on a big screen. This would have been a way to
34:46
kill a couple of hours, and it had been like, hey, you
34:49
know, that's not the worst thing I've ever seen. But in the intimacy
34:54
of my home, where my wife's sleeps, my children come and play with
34:59
their toys. Wow, it's a friend. Jeez night, oh man.
35:05
I like, thank you the forgiveness of one star and for that, for
35:08
that callback, thank you very much. I want to I want to spring
35:12
back to another positive. I loved the score to this movie. And you
35:16
want to know why I love the score to this movie because I heard so
35:20
much first contact in this movie, so much, so many parts or like
35:27
Goldsmith that is, I mean, I'm not surprised. It's like Goldsmith was
35:30
like, hey, you know what works, so let's just keep keeping rolling.
35:34
But no, I really did like the score overall. It was a
35:36
really good score. I'm not taking anything away from Jerry Goldsmith when I say
35:42
this, but there's definitely there are two categories of Jerry Goldsmith. There's Jerry
35:46
Goldsmith showing up and saying, rolling up his sleeves and saying that paycheck,
35:52
this is what you're gonna get. And then there's Jerry Goldsmith rolling into first
35:55
night and saying, if you want to say thirty percent, just I can
36:00
get this for you just a little quicker if you want to do that.
36:04
Like, the guy was a very busy composer obviously, but I'm not saying
36:07
anything to slight his talent. I'm just you know, this is definitely one
36:12
of those ones where I wouldn't I wouldn't hang my gold was hired as a
36:16
last minute replacement. Oh hey, no, no, I want to I
36:20
want to read this to you guys. Veteran composer Maurice I don't know how
36:23
to pronounce it was initially hard to score the original three hour cut of the
36:29
move. However, he was given only four weeks to write ninety minutes of
36:34
music, and believing that it wasn't enough time, he declined the offer.
36:37
Jerry Goldsmith was hired at the last minute, had limited time to compose the
36:40
music, and was left with only three and a half days to record it.
36:44
Despite the time constraince Goldsmith delivered a mess full score, considered by many
36:46
to be one of the best of the latter part of his career. You
36:52
know, I think it's I think it's if he had in the hopper and
36:54
it was like, you know, and it worked for like again this and
37:00
first Contact, Yeah, I think and again not taking anything away from Goldsmith,
37:04
the fact that he puts it all together as quick as that, even
37:07
if it's stuff where he's like, I got pieces of this and I can
37:08
recycle it, Like even putting that together is masterful. But maybe this is
37:15
just knowing Goldsmith's work too well. I'm being more critical than that review would
37:22
have been about it, because what would you say is your favorite Goldsmith?
37:25
Do you have one at the top of your head? Uh? Yeah,
37:29
I mean I would say that Star Trek five is actually helped there. I
37:31
think that's an incredible score score. So Star Trek the motion picture and I
37:36
hate to pick just two Star Treks out of there. But I'd say when
37:38
I think Jerry Goldsmith, if somebody comes up to me, it's like,
37:40
you want to listen to Jerry Goldsmith. Those are like the two. I'm
37:44
like, yeah, one of the that's like the first thing that pops in
37:46
my brain. So that's my top tier Goldsmith. When I hear Goldsmith and
37:51
I try to block out Star Trek, this is the score that I hear.
37:54
I love this score immensely. I love the themes in it, the
38:00
motifs and Darren. I think that's probably why you really appreciate this car,
38:04
because you love a good motif. I do, and it had had quite
38:07
a few, especially between Gear and Guinevere. I should say Lancelot and get
38:13
Guenevere. That was weird. But yeah, like I love the love motif.
38:15
Will you give me a good love motif? And I'll I'm with you
38:19
on that one. And yeah, I just like I could. I could
38:22
listen to this and I can picture the movie. And this was, as
38:29
I said, like one of my favorite, if not my favorite Goldsmith score.
38:35
So production design before we get into costume design. So production design,
38:42
the original production designer was fired because they said that he was too like his
38:47
sets were too expensive. Do you think, Darren, do you feel like
38:52
that money came across on screen of what we actually got? Yeah? I
38:58
think so. I mean it's very practical. You have no magic, so
39:04
there's a lot of you know, just sets and backgrounds and stuff like that.
39:07
Like the four sequence was really well done. You know, I believe
39:12
Camelot's a real place, even though we only see like two or three angles
39:15
of it, you know, mostly that interior courtyard. Uh yeah, the
39:22
valure zigzag. You know, it's a look maybe it's it once. It's
39:28
kind of I love the shoulder shoulder pieces. Those looked really good. So
39:31
yeah, no, i'd say I'd say it for ninety five. It had
39:35
a ninety five. It matched I personally, Oh no, I was just
39:40
gonna say if anything, it looked uh phony. I guess you could say
39:50
like it's it's fine. They spent ninety money on it and everything. Yeah,
39:55
Like it's just maybe it's the way they lit it or something like that.
39:59
And you know, costuming production design aren't the same thing. But I
40:01
think the costumes are a good example of that, where it's like it's they
40:05
look like they work at the blockbuster of the medieval era and like it's a
40:08
little too the stitching is a little too crisp, and it's like still a
40:12
little too Like it's all you know, I will give you that. I
40:15
will say that. Like, while I personally love the costumes because it goes
40:20
into the militaristic feel, it was a little star trek. But I loved
40:27
how you could tell what the duties were, Like you could tell who was
40:31
a round table night because of the rectangles on the on the top piece you
40:37
could tell that. And the shoulder, yeah, and like on the shoulder
40:40
and like King Arthur had a cross on his shoulder and no one else did,
40:45
and not everybody had the shoulder shield. And then you had other people
40:49
who you know, like there was just there was all the stars had the
40:53
dot, had the squares, and only the knights of the round table had
40:58
the shoulder and only Arthur had the cross. I think that was the progression.
41:01
Yeah, it was. It was things like that and like that I
41:04
really appreciated but thought behind it. Yes, But at the same time,
41:07
John, it does feel kind of modern in the way that it was made,
41:14
like in the way that it didn't feel like a medieval epic that like
41:19
the what what's what's the trope called the dung Era where everybody's dirty and weird
41:23
and I can't tell he's a king. He ain't got over Yeah, you
41:28
know, uh, you know. And I think that another thing that that
41:32
is the nineties saw a very conscious move away from anything overtly religious, even
41:38
in period pieces a lot of the time. And so there's no mention about
41:45
Arthur's Sacred Charge or the special Table. No, no, no, there's
41:52
no Lady No, there's no like Lady of the Lake and like Blessed ex
41:54
Caliber with green light on it and stuff like that. I'm saying, like,
41:58
if you compare the way that it's a pro coached in even Holy Grail,
42:02
for Pete's sake, but like if you go to God, God,
42:07
you're talking about two different things. You're which I was going to ask about,
42:09
like because you're talking about the lack of magic in Mythos versus a lack
42:15
of religion in God. I don't think that there's no religion and God in
42:16
this movie whatsoever. No, you that's not. I didn't say there's a
42:21
lack of quote unquote religion, And I said there's a move away from that
42:28
sort of like sacred charge field. Arthur in you know, in all of
42:32
the stuff that you look at basically has like this this this angelic duty like
42:38
handed down from on high sort of thing, whereas this Arthur plays much more
42:44
like I'm an accomplished person who managed to you know, had great skill to
42:51
bring everybody together sort of thing. There's not a I'm on a sacred mission
42:57
from the Almighty to do to construct camel and do these things. That's what
43:00
I'm saying. That's right, l Wood, We're on a mission from God.
43:04
Yeah. Basically, Okay, Okay, that I can understand. I
43:08
think I would have understand understood your point a little bit more if you didn't
43:13
preface it with there was a move away from religion and movies, because I
43:15
think those are two separate things. Because I agree with you that I think
43:21
like this movie, I mean, this movie has a clear lack of magic
43:24
and and and of God being ordained like ordaining Arthur. Absolutely. And I
43:31
was going to ask you about that. I was going to ask you guys
43:34
about that, like how do you feel about that? There's no Lady of
43:36
the Lake, there's no Merlin, there's like Excalibur. Is you need at
43:40
least Merlin, I don't know. It's again, it's very different in the
43:46
whole fact that Arthur's old when all this is happening, and it's after everything's
43:53
been built. You know what I give as an example because this is an
43:58
argument I got into in college with a guy. No, no, this
44:04
was this was a fellow theater major. The fellow theater major dope in calling
44:09
myself a dope, okay, but where we were talking about Shakespeare and he
44:15
was insisting that Hamlet's father had to have been a real person who was a
44:22
spy who was tricking Hamlet to turn against the kingdom, right, And I
44:25
made the face that the two of you were just making visual medium. So
44:29
just imagine they're making these scrunchy faces everybody where. It's like, No,
44:34
you're taking to your sensibility, your personal sensibility today, and you're grafting it
44:37
on to Hamlet from hundreds of years ago. No, the ghost was real,
44:43
Okay, like it just was. You needed it in there. That
44:45
was the rules of the game back then. And so chorus you had like
44:51
you're making it sound like Hamlet, but in a less you know, in
44:58
a less emphatic way say that this definitely reflects that same sensibility. You know,
45:06
it's that modern approach to thinking instead of I don't see somebody sitting there
45:09
and saying, well, when Arthur would have existed, this is what people
45:13
would have thought and how we would have expressed that part of the story.
45:15
And I'm not saying that's a negative. I'm saying, like, yeah,
45:19
every movie reflects. It's the of its era, and I'm sure we're going
45:22
to see it even more so as we move forward. Oh my gosh.
45:25
Yeah, absolutely, this is very much a modern take even though it's set
45:30
in the past. It's a modern perspective of King Arthur. And you know,
45:38
I feel like this is a this was an Arthurian legend movie for people
45:43
who have never heard of the Arthurian legend, like people who have never seen
45:47
or read. They could get away with this movie if it's audience is people
45:52
who have never heard of an Arthurian legend. Like. Couple that with your
45:55
statement, are you saying that it doesn't get away with it? Yeah,
46:04
because I mean I feel like we know the legend and we're poking holes in
46:07
it left and right. Like a lot of the changes that they made.
46:12
Well, I mean, poking holes might be a bit a bit, a
46:16
bit of a pointed from my perspective, because I feel like it it's an
46:20
adaptation, true, you know, it's I see this as as an adaptation.
46:27
I don't see this as a It's definitely not a faithful retelling, but
46:30
it's an adaptation. So it's based off of the au Thorian legend, but
46:35
so is everything, you know, Like there's nothing has been a strict retelling
46:43
of whatever John mentioned about French on the pendulum of the story, if you
46:52
have the real legend or a very faithful legend in the middle, I think
46:58
one end of the pendulum you have First Night with its you know, changes
47:02
of like when it's taking place and how it's focusing on Lancelot. It almost
47:08
feels like the Twin. Then on the other side of the pendulum, I'm
47:12
gesturing for the visual it's like Monty Python, like because you wouldn't say Monty
47:19
Python is an accurate representation of the Arthurian legend at all. It is definitely
47:23
taking leeway, but it's kind of the opposite end of that pendulum where this
47:28
is taking it differently in a serious way, versus a comedic way. I
47:34
like that. I like that a lot like others, but opposite sides.
47:38
Yeah, because I think a lot of people who are big fans of their
47:43
Etherian legend didn't like this movie because it didn't have the drama of Morgan le
47:46
Fay. It didn't have the drama of Mordred. It didn't have you know,
47:52
like Malligant was the stand like the stand in for Mordred, even though
47:57
Malligan did exist in a different legend, spelled differently. But you know,
48:01
like you have Mordrid who's Arthur's son through incest, and you know, like
48:07
you know, like Lancelot and Quinn if you're running off into into the into
48:13
history, but in this version, you know, he you know, like
48:20
Arthur hands both his kingdom sword and lady to to gear and then you have
48:28
this happy ending where the hypot noose is gone right and the trial collapses on
48:35
itself. And yeah, and you know like this this is very much that
48:38
like is this true to legend? Of course it's not, but it's an
48:43
adaptation, you know, And that that's where I I I feel, you
48:47
know, like you get a lot of leeway with that, with the with
48:50
the filmmakers who say that this is this is not a faithful retelling because and
48:53
as we move forward with these next couple of films, you're going to be
49:00
thinking about what I'm saying right now. And oh, I'm sure I know
49:06
full well, I know full well, but coming as somebody who doesn't have
49:08
a particular attachment to the Arthurian legend, like you know, I know the
49:14
rough outline of it expert. Now we've watched so much of it, you
49:17
know, wouldn't that be funny, Like you come out of this and you
49:21
still I still don't feel like I know the full thing. I'm kind of
49:23
like, uh yeah, maybe, but it's you know, maybe I do
49:30
have a little bit of a problem too, with the fact that it wraps
49:31
up so neatly, whereas like oh well I've lost you get everything, like
49:38
huh, like there's no tinge of sadness. Really like it works out as
49:44
well as a ken for everybody. I want to see the next moment,
49:45
where like half the nights at the round table like like, well I didn't
49:49
serve, I didn't swear to you, so I'm out of here and like
49:52
everything falls apart, like like what is the next five minutes after that scene.
49:57
I'm actually really curious about that start the movie there. That would be
50:00
really interesting, wouldn't it. I have to admit that that was that was
50:06
super strange. Like even when I watched this as a kid with my family,
50:08
we kept trying to we looked really closely. No, it wasn't even
50:14
that, like we looked really closely at the at the screen, Like we
50:16
got our eyes as close as we could to the screen so that we could
50:20
see his side shield, his shoulder shield to see if there was a cross
50:23
on it, because he's clearly back in uniform as a Knight of the Round
50:29
Table. He's holding Excalibur. He's standing there with Guinevere and my whole family,
50:35
and I were just like, well, surely he's not king now,
50:39
right, but that the imagine imagine the precedent that they just set for all
50:46
of the other knights where they could be sitting and become the king. This
50:52
woman, Oh so Campbellot's just like every other kingdom. Cool, cool,
50:55
let's figure this one out now, this one. No no, no,
50:59
no, no, it's like Fry from Futurama who drank the emperor. Yes,
51:07
so okay, So as we wrap up. I want to talk about
51:09
the final scene, final action scene. Fight got you dude, so melligant
51:21
sacks the city, he's threatens to burn it down. He gives an amazing
51:24
speech that I this Bin Cross. Holy crap, Absolute tops, absolute tops.
51:34
I love this performance from friend Cross because he just eats it up and
51:37
he just I love when he screams. He's like, it's like free from
51:42
Arthur's Toretical Dream, from Arthur's Tyrednical Law, Free from Arthur's Torenical God.
51:49
Just the way he hits it is absolutely perfect and chills just thinking about it,
51:54
and and I am absolutely like, I know, it's so much melodrama.
52:00
It is the definition of melodrama. But I love it when Connery is
52:04
about to bow and like Darren, you know, like you joked. He
52:07
like just like, ah, how fooled you? And then it gets back
52:08
up. He's like fined fine, And then as soon as the bolts hit
52:12
his chest the music rises, Excalibur drops, and then his nights pick him
52:17
up and he goes come on on lives and then the fight begins. I
52:22
look at look at this, look at this, look at this. Oh,
52:23
It's an amazing sequence, the most visual podcast. We had yes,
52:29
true, like, oh my god, look at your head. I didn't,
52:30
and I didn't know where it was gonna come in again, this is
52:32
the first time seeing this so like to his credit, like Conry is acting
52:37
it like I didn't know what was gonna happen. I'm like, is he
52:42
gonna bend it him? Like is I thought Lancelot was gonna swing in kind
52:45
of Vader stopping Luke from killing the Emperor, kind of you know moment and
52:51
he starts to fight someone was gonna start a fight. I knew that was
52:53
gonna happen, Like you could just tell where the story was going, but
52:57
I didn't know it was gonna be how it was. And although I love
53:02
what I love best about that moment is I kind of pulled myself back and
53:06
looked at it for a moment and thought, wow, so is malikant Malligan.
53:14
Malligan's power is the threat of burning the city. Arthur's power is his
53:22
nights and his people. It's just an interesting dichonomy, like Malikan doesn't actually
53:27
have power, he has the threat of destroying someone else's goodness. Well,
53:34
which that that would have also been something where I imagine this three, This
53:38
mystical three hour cut probably fleshes out more. Is they very much show that
53:44
Malligan's power quote unquote over his people comes from ruling through fear, Oh totally,
53:50
and Arthur has power by ruling through love and dedication. And I would
53:57
have liked to see that more had teased out differently, I guess. And
54:04
it's you know, you always get into that danger of like trying to rewrite
54:07
the thing after you see it sort of thing. But like it would have
54:10
been nice to have, well, it would have been nice to have a
54:14
little bit more of a an appeal to Malligan's own people and turn them against
54:19
him at the end when like when the tide of the battle is turning and
54:22
then somebody's like we fight imagine for brotherhood. Yeah, he just wants,
54:29
you know, question yourselves. And then like you have a couple of his
54:31
guys like yeah, this kind of sucks, and then like they they joined
54:37
the fight. You know. I I like how it was because it was
54:43
you know, like we foreshadow it earlier when when Connery is talking to Gear
54:47
and he says, he's like you like you take down Camelot, you know,
54:52
like like it's it's it's brick, it's mortar, it's flags, whatever,
54:58
you know, like burn them all. Camel lives on you know.
55:00
He says that like halfway through the film. And then at the end when
55:05
Mallagan is talking about burning it down, he says, you know, you
55:08
know, Arthur says, Camelot lives. And it's not just the Nights fighting
55:15
everybody. It's it's everybody. It's all of Camelot. It's men, women,
55:20
children. We see some some huge old guys throw one of Malligan's men
55:24
over the side. I actually preferred, so basically, I'm saying, John,
55:29
you're wrong. I preferred the what we saw because it was this force
55:34
of love against against hate. It was everybody fighting for a common goal.
55:37
It was not like, oh, you know, like I'm going to go
55:39
off into the corner and you know the Knights are going to protect us.
55:42
It's like, no, this is my home and this is an evil force
55:45
trying to invade it with hate and with fire and destruction. And even even
55:50
as as we finished the battle, you know, they put out the flames.
55:53
It's real, it's real in my mind. Uh. But like you
55:59
here someone in the distance screaming Kamelot lives, you know, echoing what Arthur
56:04
said. So, I'm a big fan of sword fights and sword movies.
56:09
What do you guys think about Malligant versus Lancelot? John, what do you
56:15
think about this final scene? This action piece? It's okay, that's all
56:21
you're gonna give me. That's all I'm gonna give you, because I will
56:24
honestly say that there are sword fights, and this I would classifis one of
56:31
them where I can see. I'll give Ben Cross credit. This is a
56:37
guy who he's trained a couple of other times, and I believe in his
56:43
movement. Gear never sells me on being a natural swordsman. Everything looks very
56:47
much. I'm going from step to step to step to step to step,
56:52
and it's very carefully choreographed, and I don't ever get a sense of anybody
56:58
being in you know. Again, it's like a stage play sort of thing
57:02
where it's like, okay position one two three four one two three four four
57:07
three three two one one two three okay and kill set. It just feels
57:12
like a dance, you know. That's just how it plays for me when
57:17
I'm watching it. Darren, tell me why John's wrong? He can't he
57:22
can't. I will say I did feel because the trickiness of the end scene
57:30
is Lancelot is the undefeated night so already you know, you know he's going
57:37
to win, so you have to but you also have to make it interesting.
57:40
And there are some shots that I think they are progressing. You know,
57:45
what do you call it? Like when you're in a sword fight,
57:46
you have the how much trouble is the big good guy in? You know,
57:51
it starts low and then it's like, oh no, no no,
57:52
it's all it goes back and it's like, oh no, no, no
57:54
visual, look at my hand. But yeah, there are good moments in
58:00
that there. We gotta start recording this, like we gotta start putting us
58:05
on YouTube. But no, there were like good moments where yeah, like
58:07
he gets stabbed on the shoulder and you know that's always a good indicator of
58:12
the hero being almost bested, is when they start to get injured and such.
58:17
But it's hard because again, he's been on this pedestal the entire movie
58:22
as this amazing swordsman, never because he doesn't have anything to lose and and
58:29
all of that. So it's a hard formula to hit. I will say
58:35
I liked it a little better than John is indicating where I feel like it
58:38
did show that progression, that throttle of danger, but it's not like it
58:45
wasn't predictable, you know, with the you know, still not topping Princess
58:49
Bride or many other great sword fights. It's not, it's not topping any
58:52
charts, but it worked. That's interesting because I felt like this was something
58:58
that we could all agree on before where we started the podcast, Like,
59:01
I really, who are wrong, Tristan. I really felt like when we
59:07
started, I was just like, okay, well, at least we can
59:08
all agree on the final sword fight, Like that was freaking awesome, right,
59:14
I was all, I'm still in love. I was in awe as
59:16
a kid, and I'm still in love with it today. I love everything
59:20
about it. I thought the music elevates it to another level. If it
59:22
wasn't for Goldsmith's music, I don't think it would be as awesome as it
59:25
is in my mind, But it would have been funny if the very instead
59:30
of swords fighting, they're like, and I challenge you to the gauntlet,
59:34
whoever runs it first, and it's like that's how they're deciding who win.
59:37
The Kingdom. Feels very nineties, but that that would be nice. But
59:43
yeah, I loved the back and forth where they had they going at each
59:47
other, but then they had to separate. You know, like in Lancelot
59:50
is taking care of other people as he's going through and that's that's actually why
59:53
he gets stabbed. It is because he go and save somebody else and it
59:59
you know, Maligan doesn't care about that, but Lancelot does. You know,
1:00:00
Like that's a turn. And even though we have a movie that doesn't
1:00:06
have any mysticism, you know, we have a Lancelot he's down on us
1:00:10
luck, he's about to get stabbed by Maligan, and then he sees Excalibur
1:00:14
and it shines in the sunlight and then all of a sudden, when he
1:00:16
picks it up, he's imbued with power and he just starts moving it at
1:00:21
unholy speeds. And like I remember watching this on VHS, which was and
1:00:29
this wasn't a cropped VHS full frame, it was an open mat full frame.
1:00:36
So in this version, like wind, Lancelot and Malligan are fighting super
1:00:42
fast. It's not sped up. They're actually moving that fast, but they're
1:00:45
just have hilts. They don't actually have blades. It's cgi blades when he
1:00:52
picks up Excalibur, and so in the full frame open Matt version, when
1:00:57
he kills Malligan and we have a hero shot of Lancelot and he's holding his
1:01:02
caliber, it looks like he broke Excalibur because it doesn't have a blade attached
1:01:08
to it. It looks like he fought so hard he broke it Ascaliber.
1:01:12
And I remember that was really distressing to my family, where we're just like,
1:01:15
well, you he broke it. And my mom said like, oh,
1:01:19
he'll take it to the Lady of the lake and fix it. It's
1:01:20
fine. It's fine. Well, because he broke Malikin's sword. He but
1:01:27
a lot of your love of this movie, it resides in head canon.
1:01:30
Tristan, I'm just gonna say, you know two things. But yeah,
1:01:36
it's like I thought that was really funny because when you watch it in the
1:01:38
sixteen by nine version, you don't see that at all. Anyway, we're
1:01:45
over the hour mark. My life. Knew that this was going to be
1:01:47
a long episode. As I said this was I said, this is going
1:01:51
to be a fun conversation between the three of us because I felt like we
1:01:55
were going to get a varying degree of pin of opinion, and I've loved
1:02:00
every second of it. So John, I'm going to start with you so
1:02:04
that Darren can kind of bring us up from that. Oh no, okay,
1:02:08
everybody speaking, my friend? How many? How many broken excalchee?
1:02:14
Will you all be my friend after my rating? No matter what it is?
1:02:19
No, of course, of course, I'll just start your previous scores
1:02:22
and street. Yeah, I give you heavily conditional love. I told you
1:02:27
this at the beginning of our friendship. I know, I know, I
1:02:34
you know as much fun as I've had trashing it. There are good parts,
1:02:39
there are there, there are good performances. It's always a treat to
1:02:43
see Sean Connery, Richard Gear doesn't work like at all. Ben Cross is
1:02:47
one of the greatest bad guy players in history. I love the cat.
1:02:52
He's just wonderful. It starts three times, but eventually it ends. And
1:03:00
right there, yeah my review, it starts three times but then it ends.
1:03:05
I'm all, I'm putting that on John's tombstone. I will land generously
1:03:14
with a two because I generous too. I did not I did not feel
1:03:20
overwhelmed with rage that I watched it, but I ever coming back to this
1:03:24
version of Camelot again, so by comparison John, basically all Arthurian legends are
1:03:30
a two except Holy Grail, which is a four, and well and five
1:03:36
if you go by my heart is where Holy Grail is. But yeah,
1:03:40
I have not enjoyed the Wing of King Arthur too much. Guys, Gonna
1:03:44
be honest with you. I talked, I talked with my wife about this,
1:03:49
and you know, like as I mentioned before about how this was going
1:03:51
to be fun because John did, like, it was clear to me that
1:03:53
John didn't like it, even though I love this movie. And she said,
1:03:57
well, what did you rate Holy Grail? And I said one point
1:04:00
five? And can you give it a four? And she's like, you'll
1:04:00
be fine them, yes, yes, yes, Darren. How many how
1:04:11
how many uh Lancelot wigs? Are you rating his perfect hair? Yeah?
1:04:18
No, it's interesting. You know, I'm I'm almost having a hard time
1:04:24
differentiing the movies at this point because we it's we haven't ever really done this
1:04:30
kind of a wing where I mean, grant, we did Hannibal and Bond
1:04:34
and such, but I feel like this is telling the same mish story so
1:04:40
many times. I'm like, now, did that happen in this movie?
1:04:44
Or was that It's not just it's starting, it's a straight up story reap.
1:04:48
Yeah, yeah, exactly. So I'm starting to feel more of these
1:04:51
side no. I know, well, you know, we do this for
1:04:55
you, the listeners, because we know you you love it. Yes,
1:05:00
there were, I mean you guys might know. I was smiling a lot
1:05:01
during this review because I kept thinking of scenes of First Night but with sound
1:05:08
effects from Holy Grail, like everyone, like when when Lance a Lot,
1:05:11
that's the version I want to watch, well because like when Lance a Lot
1:05:14
is like charging in, all I'm hearing is a no no, no,
1:05:16
no no. He's running and you know just where he's attacking everybody, And
1:05:23
I'm just like, ah, I kind of want to do a super cut
1:05:26
of like all six of these together, some bastardized you know Arthurian legend that's
1:05:33
part Squirrel and part Lady of the Lake. But no, yeah, this
1:05:39
one, I'm mostly comparing it, honestly to Excalibur, because I feel like
1:05:44
Excalibur is probably the most true to the known legend that we've seen, Like
1:05:50
it like I didn't even know Uther was a character, and like it laid
1:05:55
it all out. It had magic, it had you know, eighties effects,
1:05:59
had naked people and everything you wanted in an Arthurian legend, whereas this
1:06:05
was you know, just yeah, a pivot, but a lot of things
1:06:11
I liked about that. Again, I think we all love Sean Connery.
1:06:15
He just you know, you could put him in almost anything and he'd be
1:06:18
amazing. And I, you know, I felt like it's a lot was
1:06:23
he did. He did fairly well it if you buy into that being I
1:06:28
mean, it's called first Night, so I think honestly it earns a lot
1:06:31
of leeway by calling itself that, it is not calling itself Arthur and the
1:06:36
first Night or the nights of the round Table or like it is obviously focused
1:06:43
on him, you know, and starts, you know, in a different
1:06:46
way. I think I'm also going to give it a two. I think
1:06:51
it's what you know, all of that, all of that, all of
1:06:57
that, all of that, see you talking about the Syne photography and then
1:07:00
no, no, no, no, no, no no no no stop
1:07:03
it. No do not do not listen to him, Darren. You get
1:07:12
ratings. You're absolutely correct, Darren, and you if you I want you
1:07:15
to take go back. No, shut up, you, sir, Darren.
1:07:20
I want to go back listen to this episode and compare you and John's
1:07:27
comments. You did not give the same rating and the states we did the
1:07:30
same, and now absolutely whatsoever. No. See, the thing is,
1:07:33
Darren and I were on such a wavelength. I right, We're flip sides
1:07:36
of the same coin. I'm in the middle of the triangle. I don't
1:07:40
like me here. Now. We're flip sides of the same coin. You're
1:07:43
the shining side, I'm the scarred side. You put us together, we're
1:07:46
one perfect point for Harvey Dent to flip. We both came down with the
1:07:48
two. There you go. It was almost a three. The score could
1:07:54
have moved it to that because again the score was amazing. But I I
1:08:00
think what tipped it was close, but what tipped it was. I don't
1:08:02
think I'm ever going to watch this movie again. It just does not interest
1:08:08
me. I probably don't watch anything except Holy Grail again. Like I'm gonna
1:08:13
be all king Arthur out for like a decade right now, I'm in the
1:08:16
same camp. Yeah, I am going to hold this over you for a
1:08:21
long time, Darren, because you are not being honest with yourself and you're
1:08:27
living the charisma of a malegant deter you from love. You're going towards states,
1:08:33
all right, So are you wanting me to change it? Are you
1:08:36
want me to change a time three? Don't you? Dare? Don't just
1:08:42
of this? You know you want to know something, Darren, here's a
1:08:46
difference. I respect your choice right here. I come from a place of
1:08:50
love. I understand that you have your own agency. I don't need you
1:08:55
to give it a three. I know your heart is in it has it
1:09:00
too, and so that's where you're staying. Yeah, Darren, I want
1:09:03
you to be honest with yourself. I want to look, want you to
1:09:05
look inside you know what. Stop deflecting, because after everything you said,
1:09:10
I need to break it. Do I need to break my vow and give
1:09:13
this a two point five and have my No, it's not because I don't
1:09:16
really talk about the cinematography. You're talking about score. You know what,
1:09:21
Tristan, if you've got if you give this anything less than five, I'm
1:09:26
gonna shots of production design. If Tristan gives us anything less than a five,
1:09:30
I'm gonna riot, okay, because after all the love that I I
1:09:34
think Tristan's giving this a four, which would be as highest. Uh,
1:09:38
I'm saying four. I'm saying I'm betting. I'm guessing four. I'm betting
1:09:42
four and a half. This is legitimately a five. Gosh, darn it,
1:09:46
I wanted to go with five. I can't believe you changed you.
1:09:49
I thought you were gonna you. You almost had it, man, and
1:09:51
you changed its second so close I doubted myself. That's the problem. No,
1:09:58
Okay, this is when Harbor a five star movie. For me.
1:10:00
There was not a single thing that I would change about this movie. Honestly,
1:10:04
maybe the crawl at the beginning of the total pointless crawl at the beginning
1:10:11
the lettering was nice though it was it was but honestly, people in the
1:10:15
background, and I kind of wondered where they went. But then we never
1:10:17
saw that again. Who knows where they were. Nobody knows who they were.
1:10:23
England's a big place. Who it was nice. He set up the
1:10:26
cameras, he just happened to be there, he shot it worked great for
1:10:29
the movie. One thing that we didn't talk about was this was edited by
1:10:33
the great Walter Merch yea and this really came like merch came through like you
1:10:41
the pacing, in my opinion, was perfect. The editing was absolutely perfect.
1:10:45
This is merch in true form. And I love the music. I
1:10:50
love the cinematography, I love the writing. I love Connery's performance. Could
1:10:56
Lancelot Lancelot be played by somebody else, Yes, but I still I was
1:11:00
okay with it because I love American Lancelot. I you know, like I
1:11:02
recognize that that's weird. It's a weird Lancelot, but I like the weird
1:11:08
Lancelot. And to me, there were so many great moments in this where
1:11:15
Connery, like, I love the difference between Connery going to Guenevere after the
1:11:20
betrayal, you know, like loving and you know, like and trying to
1:11:24
understand it's just just like you know, like you did you give yourself to
1:11:27
him, but you do love him. I want you to look at me
1:11:30
the way that you looked at him, and like she's in her chambers with
1:11:31
her ladies in waiting and everything like that. But then when he goes and
1:11:34
see Lancelot, he's in a barren room and and like he's just like,
1:11:38
I'm gonna ask the questions. It's just like I like, I brought you
1:11:41
in here. I cared for you. I loved you and you left me
1:11:45
with nothing. You know, I love I love this movie. I love
1:11:48
it. Not a lot of people do. And that's okay. I'm comfortable
1:11:53
with myself unlike Darren, and so I'm giving me unabash, unabashed stars because
1:12:01
what other people think. That's not cool. I I You know, Darren,
1:12:05
one day you'll be within your own Christmas gift John this year because I'm
1:12:11
getting roasted over here. Uh you know what, you know what, Darren,
1:12:15
we understand each other. We're on a wave length and we can be
1:12:18
honest here. We know everyone. Thank you so much for listening and sticking
1:12:23
with us on this king, this wing of King Arthur. We're continuing on
1:12:27
this wing down this hallway decade with to it the next decade with ant Antoine
1:12:34
Fuqua was King Arthur. Next week where if you thought, if you thought
1:12:40
first Night was the departure, you better tune in next week. So thank
1:12:45
you so much, and go to the nerdparty dot com for everything. Join
1:12:49
the Revolution, Join the nerd Party