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You’re So Good At Conversation! · Stuff You Should Know

0:01
Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff you should know, a production of iHeartRadio.
0:11
Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's Chuck.
0:13
Speaker 2: I'm Chucky already.
0:18
Speaker 1: You know, you know I thought a moose apropos.
0:25
Speaker 2: Oh it's my turn to talk. Yeah, oh, well played.
0:30
Speaker 2: I'm not very good at this. As you know, if
0:32
Speaker 2: you have ever listened to the podcast, and I know
0:35
Speaker 2: you have because you're one of the co hosts, you
0:38
Speaker 2: know that I step on you a lot. Now, yep,
0:42
Speaker 2: I'll keep going with my turn constructional unit. Then how
0:46
Speaker 2: confused are people? Do you think right now?
0:49
Speaker 1: I don't know, probably very I mean we should say
0:52
Speaker 1: this is all just a bit to sort of demonstrate
0:55
Speaker 1: a conversational analysis. Yeah, well thatword demonst the analysis. If
1:01
Speaker 1: someone was sitting in another room making notes about how
1:04
Speaker 1: we were talking like a creep, Yeah, that would be
1:06
Speaker 1: a conversational analysis. We were just demonstrating poor communication pretty much.
1:13
Speaker 2: But it would be a bonanza for a conversation analyst
1:15
Speaker 2: a CAA as they like to call themselves. This is
1:19
Speaker 2: a super super niche field of science. I guess it
1:23
Speaker 2: would be a social science because it branched off from sociology,
1:27
Speaker 2: but one of the things that I've noticed about it
1:30
Speaker 2: is that people like to try to push it into
1:34
Speaker 2: a typical social science, right, like come up with some
1:37
Speaker 2: theories like why do people do these things that you
1:39
Speaker 2: guys are studying, and conversation analysis says, no, we're not
1:44
Speaker 2: going to do that. Instead, we are purely about observation,
1:48
Speaker 2: noticing patterns and then figuring out how those patterns predict
1:52
Speaker 2: other patterns, and how all these different patterns fit together
1:55
Speaker 2: in this grand way to make up conversation. And you
2:00
Speaker 2: might say, well, that's pretty boring, wouldn't you, Chuck.
2:04
Speaker 1: I mean, I'll let you finish and then I'll give
2:05
Speaker 1: you my take.
2:06
Speaker 2: Okay, you might say it's pretty boring if you were Chuck.
2:11
Speaker 2: The reason why it's interesting is because it reveals something
2:14
Speaker 2: about us that conversation is one of those things that
2:16
Speaker 2: we're really really good at without realizing what we're doing.
2:21
Speaker 2: That conversation is an amazing interaction between two or more
2:25
Speaker 2: people that gets stuff done, that shares information that you
2:29
Speaker 2: can make a case basically our entire human civilization is
2:33
Speaker 2: based on the fact that we're able to converse pretty
2:36
Speaker 2: much effortlessly, even though in a lot of times it
2:38
Speaker 2: just does not make sense.
2:40
Speaker 1: Yeah, my deal with this is I'll get to this
2:44
Speaker 1: episode and then I want to wipe it from my
2:47
Speaker 1: memory bank because I'm one of those people that the
2:51
Speaker 1: last thing I want to think about is how I'm
2:55
Speaker 1: conversing with somebody. And it reminds me that that scene
2:58
Speaker 1: in Better Off Dead, when early on John Cusack is
3:02
Speaker 1: having like his early A flashback, I think to his
3:05
Speaker 1: first meeting with his girlfriend and whether they're in his
3:09
Speaker 1: head and he's like, Oh, she just touched her nose.
3:11
Speaker 1: Does that mean I have something on my face? And
3:13
Speaker 1: then she's like, oh, he just touched his face, Do
3:15
Speaker 1: I mustard on my face or something like that? And
3:18
Speaker 1: then before you know it, they're just going crazy. And
3:20
Speaker 1: that's kind of what this does to me, is I
3:22
Speaker 1: don't want to think about Like I'm very much organic
3:27
Speaker 1: when it comes to stuff like this, and the last
3:29
Speaker 1: thing I want to think about is did I say
3:32
Speaker 1: that right? Or did I interrupt somebody? Or was I
3:35
Speaker 1: did I act interested enough? Like that kind of thing?
3:38
Speaker 1: Just I have no place for that in my life.
3:40
Speaker 2: That's funny because that is almost one hundred percent of
3:43
Speaker 2: what goes on in my mind when I'm talking or
3:46
Speaker 2: when someone else is talking like, I can't help but
3:49
Speaker 2: do that.
3:50
Speaker 1: I know, and I know that, and I feel for
3:53
Speaker 1: you for that because that can't be fun.
3:55
Speaker 2: It's really tiring. So Okay, this is like potentially a
4:01
Speaker 2: career ending raphic pick that I made.
4:05
Speaker 1: Hunt no, no, no, no, no. I just you know, it's interesting,
4:08
Speaker 1: and then I just don't want to ever think about it.
4:10
Speaker 2: Okay, we'll do a good job doing that, and I'm
4:12
Speaker 2: sorry for even picking it. Well, let's dive into all
4:15
Speaker 2: of this because it is interesting in and of itself,
4:17
Speaker 2: even though it is a really strange discipline in the
4:20
Speaker 2: way that it's set up.
4:21
Speaker 1: Yeah, it draws from a couple of fields. Primarily Libya
4:25
Speaker 1: helped us with this one, and I can tell because
4:28
Speaker 1: it's awesome. Ethn No methodology, and that is it's studying
4:34
Speaker 1: how people not just how they make sense of the world,
4:37
Speaker 1: but how they do it in relation to others and
4:39
Speaker 1: how they collaborate with others.
4:40
Speaker 2: Right.
4:41
Speaker 1: And then socio linguistics, which is language but not just language,
4:46
Speaker 1: language specifically with like how it relates in specific cultures,
4:50
Speaker 1: in the context of different cultures. And there were three
4:54
Speaker 1: key players and researchers doing this in the nineteen seventies,
4:59
Speaker 1: mainly Yeah, at UCLA go bruins. The persone is a
5:04
Speaker 1: sociologist named Harvey Sachs, and he seems to have kind
5:08
Speaker 1: of been the ringleader here. He's the grand Pappy of
5:12
Speaker 1: conversation analysis. He started at UCLA in the sixties, that
5:16
Speaker 1: really got into this in the mid seventies.
5:19
Speaker 2: Yeah, and he stopped in the seventies because the poor
5:22
Speaker 2: guy died in a car crash at forty years old
5:24
Speaker 2: in nineteen seventy five. And he really only worked on
5:27
Speaker 2: this for just over a decade, but he figured it out.
5:30
Speaker 2: He laid this down, and part of it was that
5:34
Speaker 2: he benefited from working closely with some other sociologists, including
5:38
Speaker 2: Irvin Goffman, who was the star of our impression Management episode.
5:43
Speaker 2: And I think that might have been where I first
5:45
Speaker 2: heard of conversation in alliance. And then so he was
5:49
Speaker 2: working with IRVN. Goffman. They weren't doing the same thing,
5:53
Speaker 2: but they were both coming from that same strain of sociology,
5:56
Speaker 2: which is it was really transitional at a time from
5:59
Speaker 2: studying huge institutions like religion or government and zooming into
6:04
Speaker 2: a much more granular, almost micro interaction level. So that's
6:08
Speaker 2: what Goffman was into with impression management. Harvey Sachs was
6:11
Speaker 2: into that with conversation.
6:13
Speaker 1: Yeah, he didn't publish a lot of stuff. This wasn't
6:16
Speaker 1: like white paper, peer reviewed kind of stuff. That was
6:19
Speaker 1: mainly like, you know, sort of pre ted talk kind
6:22
Speaker 1: of thing like, Hey, isn't this interesting. Here's my lectures.
6:26
Speaker 1: I'm going to make them available. You can take a
6:28
Speaker 1: gander if you want. Right then, there was a student
6:31
Speaker 1: of SAS named Gail Jefferson there at ECLA who was
6:34
Speaker 1: a dance major but had this interesting job. She worked
6:37
Speaker 1: as a typist for the Department of Public Health, and
6:40
Speaker 1: part of that included transcribing sensitivity training sessions with prison guards,
6:46
Speaker 1: and so she got really interested in a very kind
6:49
Speaker 1: of key part of conversation with something called turntaking, when
6:52
Speaker 1: you you know, take turns talking and a lot of
6:55
Speaker 1: this will be about like the cues that people give
6:58
Speaker 1: to let the other person know, hey, now it's your
7:00
Speaker 1: turn to speak, or how to interject constructively or interrupt constructively,
7:05
Speaker 1: things like that. But that seemed to kind of fascinate
7:07
Speaker 1: her when she was transcribing these training sessions with the
7:11
Speaker 1: prison guards, and so she got interested in that. She
7:16
Speaker 1: ended up developing a whole system called the Jefferson transcription System,
7:21
Speaker 1: which you're going to talk about a little bit, basically,
7:23
Speaker 1: how to kind of make sense of all this stuff
7:26
Speaker 1: when you're writing down how people are speaking to one
7:29
Speaker 1: another and then later on it's kind of interesting. I
7:32
Speaker 1: think she worked with laughter. She was fascinated by laughter
7:37
Speaker 1: and how that works us way into a conversation and
7:40
Speaker 1: how someone may cue someone to laugh at something they've
7:44
Speaker 1: even said themselves by giving a small laugh after they've
7:47
Speaker 1: said that thing.
7:48
Speaker 2: Yeah. The third guy is Emmanual Sheglof, and he seems
7:55
Speaker 2: to have kind of taken the reins after Harvey Sachs
7:58
Speaker 2: passed away, that's my stake. He became the chair of
8:01
Speaker 2: the Conversation Analysis Department at UCLA, which seems to be
8:06
Speaker 2: the center of conversation analysis from what I can tell.
8:10
Speaker 2: He also received a Lifetime Achievement Award from the American
8:13
Speaker 2: Sociological Association in twenty ten. So he was a big
8:17
Speaker 2: man on campus essentially.
8:19
Speaker 1: Yeah, he was a big brewin on campus. But he
8:22
Speaker 1: they kind of started out and got, you know, with
8:26
Speaker 1: kind of the simpler side of things, which is like, hey,
8:28
Speaker 1: let's look at telephone calls and just sort of everyday
8:32
Speaker 1: interactions with people, like what do people say at the
8:36
Speaker 1: beginning of a phone call? What do people say at
8:38
Speaker 1: the end of a phone call? And this is sort
8:40
Speaker 1: of the bird's eye view of like just very basic
8:44
Speaker 1: interactions before they got more specific with their observations, I guess.
8:49
Speaker 2: Yeah. But also one of the genius things about studying
8:52
Speaker 2: phone calls is how do two people who aren't looking
8:56
Speaker 2: at each other know when it's their turn to talk?
8:58
Speaker 2: And they don't just exactly and they don't just sit
9:01
Speaker 2: there and talk over one another constantly and it's just
9:04
Speaker 2: one big jumbled mass. That's what I was talking about earlier.
9:07
Speaker 2: We're really good at conversation. We don't even realize it. Yeah,
9:10
Speaker 2: but one of the first things you have to do
9:12
Speaker 2: then is not just record the phone call. You have
9:15
Speaker 2: to transcribe it. And that's what Gail Jefferson came up with,
9:18
Speaker 2: was that method of transcribing that it's pretty clever. If
9:21
Speaker 2: you know what you're looking at. You can get a
9:23
Speaker 2: lot of information from this transcription if it's used the
9:27
Speaker 2: Jefferson method.
9:29
Speaker 1: Yeah, and this was like, you know, this came around
9:32
Speaker 1: the early seventies. This is when linguist Gnome Chomsky was
9:35
Speaker 1: kind of out there in the public sphere with his
9:38
Speaker 1: idea that there's a universal grammar and this doesn't you know,
9:43
Speaker 1: this didn't set out to disprove that or anything like that.
9:46
Speaker 1: It was really more of let's look at different cultures
9:48
Speaker 1: and dynamics within a conversation. Because Chomsky, and you know
9:52
Speaker 1: some of his cohorts, was like, you know, conversations are
9:57
Speaker 1: just you can't analyze this kind of stuff stmatically. The
10:00
Speaker 1: conversations are too irregular and too different between people. And
10:04
Speaker 1: they were like, nah, I think we can actually come
10:06
Speaker 1: up with some principles that are consistent enough to do it.
10:09
Speaker 1: And I think they did totally.
10:11
Speaker 2: And one of the first projects that they started, one
10:14
Speaker 2: of Harvey Sach's first projects was he worked with a
10:18
Speaker 2: psychiatric hospital, an emergency psychiatric hospital. So their work's pretty urgent,
10:24
Speaker 2: you can imagine. And one of the things that they
10:26
Speaker 2: wanted to figure out was how to get patients to
10:30
Speaker 2: give them their name when they called in, because there
10:33
Speaker 2: was a certain amount of reluctance, as you can imagine,
10:35
Speaker 2: especially back in the mid to late sixties.
10:38
Speaker 1: Yeah, they found out when a call was answered at
10:42
Speaker 1: one of these places, they would say, if they said
10:44
Speaker 1: just hello, the person might just say hello. But if
10:49
Speaker 1: they said, well, hi, this is doctor Charles Bryant. What
10:53
Speaker 1: can I do for you today? May I help you?
10:55
Speaker 1: The people were much more inclined to then respond by saying, oh, well,
10:58
Speaker 1: this is also Charles, and I'm calling because I'm having
11:02
Speaker 1: some intrusive thoughts or something like that.
11:05
Speaker 2: Right, And then the receptionists would go, ah, I got you,
11:08
Speaker 2: I got your name, we know your name now.
11:13
Speaker 1: Yeah. Sometimes they found that people would not respond in
11:16
Speaker 1: kind with their name, and in those cases, it's pretty
11:20
Speaker 1: interesting and this, you know, kind of provided another little
11:22
Speaker 1: nugget of information for how these things go. Yeah, when
11:26
Speaker 1: they did not say, oh, yeah, my name's Chuck and
11:28
Speaker 1: I'm having, you know, intrusive thoughts, they would sort of
11:31
Speaker 1: introduce like an like a disruptor. They would say something
11:35
Speaker 1: like huh or what and just a small little bump
11:38
Speaker 1: in the road to change the conversational flow, right, subtly
11:42
Speaker 1: kind of saying like I don't want to give you
11:44
Speaker 1: my name without saying I don't want to give you
11:46
Speaker 1: my name.
11:46
Speaker 2: Right, Because what they found, conversation analysts found was that
11:51
Speaker 2: we follow set patterns, these kind of prescribed rhythms of conversations.
11:56
Speaker 2: So if you interrupt this the flow of one type
12:01
Speaker 2: of conversation would say a huh, a new set of
12:04
Speaker 2: rules comes up that takes the conversation from there that
12:08
Speaker 2: both people are aware of but don't realize they're aware of,
12:11
Speaker 2: which to me, I hadn't thought about it. But if
12:14
Speaker 2: you've ever said huh to somebody when you knew full
12:17
Speaker 2: well what they had just said, you were just reflexively
12:20
Speaker 2: trying to derail or disrupt that type of script in
12:23
Speaker 2: favor of a different one. Never realized that before, but
12:26
Speaker 2: it makes sense.
12:27
Speaker 1: Or maybe by time even, but it's just some sort
12:30
Speaker 1: of a disruptor to divert something for some reason. Sacks
12:34
Speaker 1: identified another thing called composits, and they're phrases that are
12:40
Speaker 1: kind of combined as a unit, and it usually is
12:43
Speaker 1: a prompt for some kind of response, Like if someone
12:46
Speaker 1: says may I help you like that on the telephone,
12:49
Speaker 1: what they're then obviously is asking you for a response.
12:52
Speaker 1: They'll let you know what's going on, and in the
12:54
Speaker 1: case of like an emergency call center, they might literally
12:58
Speaker 1: respond to may I help you by saying I don't know.
13:01
Speaker 1: And what they found was is it wasn't like like
13:04
Speaker 1: that was a reasonable response, like somebody might literally say like,
13:07
Speaker 1: I don't know if you can help me, and it
13:09
Speaker 1: needed to be sort of taking a face value like.
13:11
Speaker 2: That, right. What that suggested that Sex discovered was that
13:16
Speaker 2: there were these composites where if you're saying, man, I
13:19
Speaker 2: help you, you don't mean it at face value. It's
13:22
Speaker 2: a part of a I think what would be called
13:25
Speaker 2: later an adjacent pair, where you prompt, you say something
13:29
Speaker 2: that's a prompt and there's an expected like range of
13:33
Speaker 2: responses to it, and anything outside of that is like Okay,
13:38
Speaker 2: that makes sense on paper, but it doesn't make sense conversationally.
13:41
Speaker 2: And he kind of supported this with the idea he
13:45
Speaker 2: wrote in a nineteen seventy five paper that everybody has
13:47
Speaker 2: to lie yeah, And he used the example of like
13:52
Speaker 2: a greeting among people meeting on the street, where you say, like,
13:56
Speaker 2: how are you doing, and if the person says anything
13:59
Speaker 2: other than fine or great or good, they have just
14:02
Speaker 2: violated this type of composite prompt. You're not supposed to
14:07
Speaker 2: say anything else. And even more interesting than this, chuck
14:10
Speaker 2: is that they seem to have found that this is
14:13
Speaker 2: actually universal. It's not just like among Americans or English
14:17
Speaker 2: speakers or Germans or anything like that. Everybody essentially does
14:21
Speaker 2: not want to know how you're actually doing.
14:24
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I found that that's a very good indicator
14:27
Speaker 1: of closeness and how you know that you've developed a
14:30
Speaker 1: true like closeness with someone else, like a friendship or whatever,
14:35
Speaker 1: because that's much more of a formal thing. Even if
14:38
Speaker 1: you know somebody but don't know them that well, you'll
14:40
Speaker 1: say oh, like yeah, yeah, I'm doing fine. They're like, oh,
14:42
Speaker 1: pretty good. But if it's somebody you really know when
14:44
Speaker 1: you're close to, you don't have to lie. You can
14:48
Speaker 1: very easily say I'm super tired or I'm not doing
14:51
Speaker 1: great because xyz.
14:53
Speaker 2: Yeah. If you find somebody who actually does want to
14:55
Speaker 2: know how you're doing, you hang on to that.
14:57
Speaker 1: Person, right. Or if you meet someone up blue and
15:00
Speaker 1: say how you doing and they start in with the truth,
15:02
Speaker 1: then just walk.
15:03
Speaker 2: Away, right, maybe even jog away.
15:06
Speaker 1: Yeah, red flag.
15:08
Speaker 2: Uh So. One of the other big breakthroughs was came
15:11
Speaker 2: along when you could rent VCRs and they had giant
15:16
Speaker 2: recording equipment like the kind they used in poultry Geist.
15:20
Speaker 2: That changed conversation analysis, where now all of a sudden
15:24
Speaker 2: you could see all the stuff that goes along with it.
15:26
Speaker 2: It wasn't just telephone calls from disembodied voices. You could
15:29
Speaker 2: see how people interacted and it opened up this whole
15:32
Speaker 2: new world for sure.
15:34
Speaker 1: Should we take a break?
15:35
Speaker 2: I knew you were gonna say that.
15:38
Speaker 1: All right, we'll be right back.
15:39
Speaker 2: Stucks, It sucks, you know it stucks. It's a great name.
15:46
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the name of it.
15:49
Speaker 2: It's a great name. All right, Stucks met.
15:51
Speaker 1: With an X. You know, before we broke you talked
16:07
Speaker 1: about the huge cameras, and I'm reading Matthew Modine's diary
16:11
Speaker 1: of making a Full Metal Jacket, you know, the actor
16:15
Speaker 1: of Matthew Modine.
16:15
Speaker 2: Of course I know exactly what you're talking about. But
16:18
Speaker 2: number one, I can't believe there is such a thing.
16:20
Speaker 2: In number two, I can't believe you're reading it.
16:22
Speaker 1: Oh, it's great. It's his diary when he was making
16:24
Speaker 1: the movie. Casey actually got it for me when we
16:27
Speaker 1: were doing movie Crushes. Very sweet gift. But he at
16:30
Speaker 1: one point he was talking about having to put yourself
16:34
Speaker 1: on tape for an audition, which is something routinely done
16:38
Speaker 1: all the time now, especially since the writer strikes and
16:40
Speaker 1: COVID and stuff. But he was like, it's just such
16:43
Speaker 1: a pain. You got to know somebody who has one
16:45
Speaker 1: of those huge video cameras and you have to go
16:47
Speaker 1: to their studio and blah blah blah.
16:49
Speaker 2: It was just like it was very cute and quaint Yep,
16:51
Speaker 2: my niece Mila has to do that a lot.
16:53
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, it's it's super It's kind of the way
16:56
Speaker 1: it's done now.
16:56
Speaker 2: For sure, sure, but yeah, I imagine it's it's I
17:00
Speaker 2: don't know which would be worse doing it live in
17:03
Speaker 2: front of people, are doing it in front of a
17:05
Speaker 2: recording that you're getting zero feedback from.
17:07
Speaker 1: The Every actor I knows hates putting themselves on tape.
17:10
Speaker 1: They would much rather be in the.
17:12
Speaker 2: Room, gotcha, because they're all energy vampires, right exactly. So
17:18
Speaker 2: one of the things I kind of alluded to earlier
17:20
Speaker 2: is that conversation analysis is not a standard social science,
17:24
Speaker 2: and that it doesn't develop theories of why people are
17:27
Speaker 2: doing these things or why you said this when somebody
17:30
Speaker 2: else said that. Again, they're just looking for patterns. They're
17:33
Speaker 2: looking at its structure. And the cool thing about it
17:35
Speaker 2: is that that doesn't mean that they're not deriving any meaning.
17:39
Speaker 2: They're not postulating what it means. Like for example, they're
17:42
Speaker 2: not going up to two listeners or two speakers and
17:46
Speaker 2: they go to speaker number two and say, what do
17:49
Speaker 2: you think speaker number one meant when they said how
17:51
Speaker 2: are you doing? They just analyze the conversation, and based
17:56
Speaker 2: on speaker two's response, that tells the conversation analysts what
18:02
Speaker 2: speaker number two thought speaker number one was saying. So
18:05
Speaker 2: just by examining it they can come up with meaning
18:08
Speaker 2: or derive meaning from it. And again, it's just not
18:12
Speaker 2: like other social sciences, and it seems to really stick
18:15
Speaker 2: in the craw of everybody else. I love it.
18:17
Speaker 1: Yeah, they also didn't want to They wanted to be
18:20
Speaker 1: as organic as possible and just have people have naturally
18:24
Speaker 1: natural conversations with each other rather than orchestrating some big
18:27
Speaker 1: like scenarios. You do have to just because of scientific
18:32
Speaker 1: ethics and stuff, you have to tell people they're being recorded,
18:34
Speaker 1: so you can't truly be just a fly on the wall.
18:37
Speaker 1: But they did find that just the introduction of a
18:41
Speaker 1: recording device they didn't feel like and I think they've
18:44
Speaker 1: shown through evidence that it didn't really significantly change things
18:47
Speaker 1: enough to where the result was thrown out or whatever.
18:51
Speaker 2: Right, right, And like we said that, when you are
18:56
Speaker 2: beginning a conversation analysis, you start with a recording of
19:00
Speaker 2: a conversation. Nowadays it's with videotapes, and then you transcribe it.
19:06
Speaker 2: And one of the big things in conversation analysis is
19:09
Speaker 2: when you transcribe it, you need to do it as
19:11
Speaker 2: objectively as possible. You need to keep out your own
19:15
Speaker 2: subjective thoughts about who did what and just faithfully say
19:19
Speaker 2: this was an interruption, this was a TCU. This person
19:23
Speaker 2: took a break breath in the middle of their word.
19:27
Speaker 2: Josh just said he corrected himself in the middle of
19:31
Speaker 2: the sentence. So he just used the repair and notate
19:33
Speaker 2: all this stuff without any subjective input from you, and
19:38
Speaker 2: then you go back and you analyze it after it's
19:40
Speaker 2: been fully transcribed.
19:42
Speaker 1: Yeah, and so you've been very cleverly, i might say,
19:47
Speaker 1: subtly dropping in little little words here and there that
19:50
Speaker 1: people are like, what's he talking about with this stuff?
19:53
Speaker 1: That's the stuff that they're looking for, and that's the
19:55
Speaker 1: stuff that they named, like things that like in common parlance,
20:00
Speaker 1: we know some of these things like rejoinders and interruptions
20:03
Speaker 1: and things like that. But you know they're analysts, so
20:05
Speaker 1: they took it a step further. And here are some
20:08
Speaker 1: of those right now. One of them is called a
20:10
Speaker 1: turn constructional unit TCU obviously not Texas Christian University.
20:17
Speaker 2: There are frogs, horn toads, horn frogs. I think something
20:20
Speaker 2: like that, Yeah, chief and tree frogs.
20:23
Speaker 1: I think that's it. But turn construction units are the
20:27
Speaker 1: building blocks of any conversation, of every conversation. And it
20:31
Speaker 1: can be just a gesture like a nod at somebody,
20:35
Speaker 1: it can be multiple sentences, but they end up with
20:38
Speaker 1: what's called a transition relevance place a TRP, and that
20:42
Speaker 1: is a moment where like what you've said has ended
20:46
Speaker 1: and someone else may have a turn to speak now,
20:49
Speaker 1: or you may say something else after that, and that's
20:52
Speaker 1: just you taking another turn, basically and having two turn
20:58
Speaker 1: constructional units in a row.
21:01
Speaker 2: And so what just right after you said in a row,
21:03
Speaker 2: that's where the transition relevance place was. That was it
21:07
Speaker 2: because it gave me a chance to start talking, and
21:10
Speaker 2: everything you said leading up to it was the turn
21:12
Speaker 2: constructional unit. That was your turn. You took your turn
21:16
Speaker 2: in the conversation. There was a pause that allowed me
21:20
Speaker 2: to start taking my turn, And that's the basic building
21:23
Speaker 2: blocks of the conversation.
21:25
Speaker 1: That's right, Okay, see, you're good at this.
21:28
Speaker 2: There's also when I analyze it, sure, there's also like
21:34
Speaker 2: a lot of different I guess rules or exceptions or whatever.
21:37
Speaker 2: Like you could say, you could use two turns in
21:40
Speaker 2: a row without really allowing for a transition relevance, place
21:44
Speaker 2: that pause that allows the other speaker to start. For example,
21:49
Speaker 2: you could say, are you hungry? I could go for
21:52
Speaker 2: a burger. You actually just took two turns like a
21:55
Speaker 2: big fat hog without any pause in the middle. And
22:00
Speaker 2: yet that's not considered like any sort of violation of conversation.
22:04
Speaker 2: It's just again, it's like an exception. It's a way
22:07
Speaker 2: that we've kind of we're so good at conversation, we
22:09
Speaker 2: can show off by taking two turns in a row
22:12
Speaker 2: and not mess up the flow of conversation.
22:14
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly if it's and we have to point out
22:17
Speaker 1: too that a lot of times they were looking at
22:19
Speaker 1: conversations between just two people, but you can also analyze
22:23
Speaker 1: conversations in groups. It's just sort of a different beast.
22:26
Speaker 1: But in conversations with more than two people at that
22:29
Speaker 1: transition relevance place where it's probably someone else's turn to talk.
22:34
Speaker 1: Like if you're a group of people at a dinner
22:36
Speaker 1: party and you're telling a story, it's very common to
22:39
Speaker 1: finish up the story and not just stare blankly into space.
22:43
Speaker 1: But you finish up the story and maybe look at
22:45
Speaker 1: one particular person, and there may be a reason for that.
22:48
Speaker 1: Maybe it's your person, or maybe it's the person you
22:51
Speaker 1: originally sort of started this story in reference to what
22:54
Speaker 1: this other person was saying, so you'll kind of turn
22:56
Speaker 1: it back to them. But you know, that's one way
22:58
Speaker 1: you can sort of indicate like, hey, now I'm looking
23:01
Speaker 1: at you, and that they may not speak at that point.
23:04
Speaker 1: It may, you know, someone else may jump in. It
23:05
Speaker 1: just sort of depends, right.
23:07
Speaker 2: You could also make a finger gun and go at
23:09
Speaker 2: that person and they and they'll take over. One of
23:14
Speaker 2: the things. I laughed a minute ago when you talked
23:16
Speaker 2: about staring blankly at the ceiling. It's so silly when
23:20
Speaker 2: you when you just you just take out like a
23:23
Speaker 2: proper response and put in something else. It just makes
23:26
Speaker 2: me laugh every time because it's so prescribed like this
23:29
Speaker 2: these scripts are so prescribed that doing anything other than
23:33
Speaker 2: that is is just absurd and hilarious.
23:36
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it's it's like hidden camera material.
23:39
Speaker 2: You know. So I mentioned I think I corrected myself.
23:45
Speaker 2: Actually it's considered an interruption when I misspoke and said
23:49
Speaker 2: breath weirdly and then set it again correctly right after
23:54
Speaker 2: I actually interrupted myself, and I referred to that as
23:56
Speaker 2: a repair mechanism. Yeah, that's exactly what it is, because
23:59
Speaker 2: one of the unsung parts of human interaction and conversation
24:05
Speaker 2: is that we have to have ways of correcting and
24:08
Speaker 2: adjusting misunderstandings. If we didn't, we would be able to converse,
24:13
Speaker 2: but two people would walk away from the conversation potentially
24:17
Speaker 2: with totally different understandings of the information that was just exchanged. Right,
24:22
Speaker 2: So we have to be able to correct ourselves when
24:25
Speaker 2: we know we made a mistake, and then also conversely,
24:28
Speaker 2: we need to be able to ask for clarification if
24:32
Speaker 2: we didn't understand what the person was saying.
24:34
Speaker 1: Yeah, or someone else may ask for that clarification or
24:38
Speaker 1: something like that. So the repair doesn't have to come.
24:40
Speaker 1: It's not necessarily a self repair always.
24:42
Speaker 2: Right, But it doesn't mean like going to the person
24:45
Speaker 2: and being like, I'm really sorry, and I'm not going
24:47
Speaker 2: to do this anymore, and here's how we're going to
24:49
Speaker 2: do it better from this point forward. Not that kind
24:51
Speaker 2: of repair.
24:52
Speaker 1: There are also gaps something to identify when they're analyzing conversations,
24:57
Speaker 1: and we all know what that is that I believe
25:00
Speaker 1: I always call them, and friends have called them awkward
25:01
Speaker 1: pauses when it's not clear who the next speaker gonna
25:05
Speaker 1: is going to be, and that can happen, like you
25:08
Speaker 1: know you can, and even with groups of close friends
25:11
Speaker 1: in a very social situation. In fact, I feel like
25:13
Speaker 1: that's when it's most sort of noticeable, is when like
25:17
Speaker 1: you're at a dinner party in something, and everyone's laughing
25:19
Speaker 1: and saying things, and then everyone just draws a blank
25:22
Speaker 1: for a couple of beats. Sure, and then someone will
25:25
Speaker 1: usually say like awkward pause or something like that and
25:27
Speaker 1: not say like that's a technically it's a conversation gap.
25:31
Speaker 2: That's I think a good a good replacement now because
25:34
Speaker 2: awkward pause is so used up to just be like
25:36
Speaker 2: conversation gap, so it can be uncomfortable when it happens naturally,
25:42
Speaker 2: naturally like that, like every everybody's just kind of run
25:45
Speaker 2: out of things to say about whatever that conversation was.
25:48
Speaker 2: It's even more uncomfortable when somebody misses their turn to speak, right,
25:54
Speaker 2: they don't clearly yes, well, they don't give any sort
25:57
Speaker 2: of response right. That is, that can cause a gap,
26:02
Speaker 2: and a lot of times you can signal that by
26:06
Speaker 2: like repeating the question you just asked, saying the punchline
26:11
Speaker 2: one more time, saying something like what do you think
26:14
Speaker 2: about that? A prompting thing, And then there's also nonverbal
26:19
Speaker 2: ways of signaling gaps, like putting both hands in the
26:22
Speaker 2: air and going into a forward lunch.
26:25
Speaker 1: Right. I've always found that if the joke doesn't go,
26:27
Speaker 1: we're just merely repeating the punchline again, always.
26:29
Speaker 2: Works exactly over and over and over again.
26:33
Speaker 1: You may not have heard me adjacent sea pairs. I
26:38
Speaker 1: think you might have mentioned that, But that's when when
26:42
Speaker 1: a specific kind of response is expected, so like how's
26:45
Speaker 1: it going, Hey, I'm doing pretty good. They're also a
26:49
Speaker 1: lot of times referred to as pre sequences, so just
26:52
Speaker 1: sort of like it's sort of like a pad answer almost.
26:54
Speaker 2: Yeah, like come in, won't you thank you? That'd be invitation, acceptance,
26:58
Speaker 2: greeting greeting question answer. There's actually a lot of those
27:03
Speaker 2: that those are the ones that are maybe even silliest
27:07
Speaker 2: when you replace it. Like if somebody says would you
27:09
Speaker 2: like a slice of cake? And you go hello, Right,
27:12
Speaker 2: it doesn't work.
27:15
Speaker 1: Well, what if you went hello, exactly.
27:18
Speaker 2: I was gonna say the same thing. Like, we've figured
27:20
Speaker 2: out ways around that. You can massage the rules and
27:23
Speaker 2: get even more creative with the whole thing. That you
27:25
Speaker 2: could use something that's totally inappropriate and make it appropriate.
27:30
Speaker 2: The best thing about something that funny is explaining it
27:33
Speaker 2: to death.
27:34
Speaker 1: All right, here you ask me for cake one more time?
27:36
Speaker 1: I got one more?
27:37
Speaker 2: Okay, would you like a slice of cake?
27:40
Speaker 1: Cok yourself?
27:43
Speaker 2: That works. It kind of works to an extent for sure.
27:47
Speaker 1: Stories is another one. When you mentioned the staring into
27:50
Speaker 1: space at the end of like a question to you,
27:53
Speaker 1: that can also happen at the end of a story
27:55
Speaker 1: if you don't know what you're doing as a as
27:57
Speaker 1: a communicator, when you start a story, you a lot
28:00
Speaker 1: of time give an indicator that you know that it's
28:03
Speaker 1: going to be you for a minute or two by
28:06
Speaker 1: saying something like didn't I ever tell you about or
28:09
Speaker 1: something like that, or get a sort of interest, Yeah,
28:11
Speaker 1: get a load of this, or I'll tell you what
28:13
Speaker 1: happened to me, And then you start your sort of story,
28:16
Speaker 1: and usually you will end it by kind of looking
28:18
Speaker 1: in someone's direction. And that's when you should sort of
28:21
Speaker 1: acknowledge by either saying like, oh man, that's so funny
28:25
Speaker 1: or just something like that, and not just stare blankly
28:28
Speaker 1: back at somebody.
28:29
Speaker 2: So I have I'm guilty of doing that, especially before
28:32
Speaker 2: I started treating my ADHD. My mind would wander very
28:36
Speaker 2: easily when somebody was telling a story, and I would
28:39
Speaker 2: know that I really miffed it when the person would
28:42
Speaker 2: look at me and then have to feel like they
28:44
Speaker 2: had to explain why I should be reacting more than
28:47
Speaker 2: I am. And then I'd be like, oh, yeah, that
28:49
Speaker 2: really sucks that that happened to you. It was not
28:52
Speaker 2: It doesn't really make for good interactions, really makes people
28:56
Speaker 2: want to stay away from you.
28:58
Speaker 1: Oh Josh, really dug that one?
29:00
Speaker 2: Huh right, like huh what? Because yeah, you don't say
29:05
Speaker 2: huh what. I wasn't paying attention. You try to play
29:07
Speaker 2: it off, and that actually makes it worse.
29:09
Speaker 1: Yeah, there are discourse markers, and they're just sort of words.
29:13
Speaker 1: Or phrases like like organizationally help out like oh, or because,
29:21
Speaker 1: and you're usually like connecting something to something that came
29:24
Speaker 1: before it, right.
29:25
Speaker 2: And then the last one is laminated action, which is
29:29
Speaker 2: when you combine it with a gesture that it doesn't
29:32
Speaker 2: just change the meaning, it actually completes the meaning. Yeah,
29:35
Speaker 2: Olivia gave an example of when you say, oh, yeah,
29:39
Speaker 2: I've met him and you roll your eyes. Right, if
29:42
Speaker 2: you just say oh yeah, i've met him, even that
29:45
Speaker 2: same intonation, it doesn't tell the person what you actually
29:49
Speaker 2: think about them. You roll your eyes, then they get
29:52
Speaker 2: the whole picture. You've met them, you've judged them, you
29:55
Speaker 2: can't stand them, you wish they were dead, dead dead.
29:59
Speaker 1: Yeah, role can sail those things exactly?
30:03
Speaker 2: Should we take another break now or keep going?
30:07
Speaker 1: Let's talk about overlap maybe and then we can take
30:09
Speaker 1: a break. That feel about it? The idea, So overlap
30:13
Speaker 1: is a really really like I feel like conversation analysts
30:17
Speaker 1: just sort of light up whenever there's an overlap that
30:20
Speaker 1: they can witness. They get pretty turned on by that
30:23
Speaker 1: kind of thing. One common form is just like just
30:27
Speaker 1: a simple misunderstanding, like I didn't know that your turn
30:30
Speaker 1: was over I'm sorry. It's not the same thing as interruption.
30:35
Speaker 1: Those are two different things. But interruption is like when
30:38
Speaker 1: you stop in the middle of like stop somebody in
30:40
Speaker 1: the middle of their sentence and talk over them. And
30:42
Speaker 1: overlap is just when someone stops talking and had something
30:46
Speaker 1: else to say, maybe and you start on your own train.
30:49
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the thing I think I do the most
30:51
Speaker 2: to you. I think you've done and then I keep
30:53
Speaker 2: talking or I start talking. That is Yeah, that's just
31:00
Speaker 2: up interruption. Unintentional. There is such thing as intentional interruption,
31:04
Speaker 2: where somebody's trying to like gain control or dominate a conversation. Yeah,
31:08
Speaker 2: aka total jerks.
31:11
Speaker 1: Right.
31:11
Speaker 2: There's also a different kind of interruption, which is a
31:15
Speaker 2: cooperative interruption. Like when I say right to you while
31:18
Speaker 2: you're telling a story, I'm actually interjecting it while you're
31:21
Speaker 2: still using your turn. You're you're making a turn construction unit,
31:25
Speaker 2: uh huh unit. But I'm helping you along at the
31:30
Speaker 2: very least demonstrating I'm listening and participating in the conversation,
31:34
Speaker 2: which makes it cooperative.
31:36
Speaker 1: Yeah, and those are just fine. You can interrupt people
31:40
Speaker 1: all the time in the middle of their story and
31:42
Speaker 1: even add to it if you're if you can, like
31:45
Speaker 1: maybe you'll interrupt and say, like if somebody who's telling
31:49
Speaker 1: a story about driving their car, you know, it's like,
31:51
Speaker 1: you know it was a guy, Well kind of car
31:53
Speaker 1: was you driving? And they'll say, oh, a BMW And
31:56
Speaker 1: then everyone's like yeah, and they may have left out
31:59
Speaker 1: that details. So that's all just sort of active participation
32:02
Speaker 1: in the conversation precisely.
32:05
Speaker 2: We're also no.
32:06
Speaker 1: Shade toward BMW drivers. By the way, I'm not sure
32:08
Speaker 1: why I set that car.
32:09
Speaker 2: We're also so good at this whole thing that we
32:13
Speaker 2: can interrupt while someone's telling a story without taking away
32:17
Speaker 2: from the story. For example, if you're sitting there having
32:21
Speaker 2: dinner with somebody and they're telling a story and you say, hey,
32:23
Speaker 2: pass the potatoes, right, it doesn't actually like derail the conversation,
32:28
Speaker 2: and the person's not offended. Yeah, you're just you're just
32:31
Speaker 2: fitting that in there so you can eat the potatoes
32:34
Speaker 2: and enjoy them while you're hearing the story too.
32:37
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's that can happen even I mean, dinner
32:40
Speaker 1: party is such a good sort of experiment because it's
32:42
Speaker 1: everyone seated around and looking at each other, and all
32:44
Speaker 1: these conversations are happening that you can even do that
32:48
Speaker 1: to someone else at the table during someone's story if
32:51
Speaker 1: the potatoes are closer, but you might do it in
32:53
Speaker 1: a hush tone, like during the middle of their story, Hey,
32:55
Speaker 1: can you pass potatoes? Yeah, And that person may even
32:57
Speaker 1: go they're so good, so like something like that.
33:00
Speaker 2: What kind of potatoes did you imagine when I said
33:03
Speaker 2: pass the potatoes up?
33:05
Speaker 1: Mashed?
33:05
Speaker 2: Did you? I? I, for some reason thought of steamed
33:09
Speaker 2: or baked red potatoes, and then I was like, those
33:12
Speaker 2: are no good, So I changed it to scallop potatoes,
33:15
Speaker 2: which are great.
33:16
Speaker 1: Oh man, you ever think everything, don't you?
33:19
Speaker 2: I totally do. And then I thought about human makes
33:22
Speaker 2: really good scallop potatoes. It just kind of kept going
33:25
Speaker 2: from there.
33:26
Speaker 1: I wonder what Chuck's talking about right now exactly?
33:29
Speaker 2: No, I was listening to. That is a bit of
33:31
Speaker 2: a talent. I can listen and do that at the
33:33
Speaker 2: same time.
33:34
Speaker 1: Okay, what exactly? I think? This is kind of really interesting.
33:39
Speaker 1: There's a Georgetown University linguist named Deborah Tannan who did
33:43
Speaker 1: a fun little experiment where she transcribed conversations between two Californians,
33:48
Speaker 1: three New Yorkers, and a Londoner. And this should come
33:52
Speaker 1: as no surprise. New Yorkers talked over everybody. And when
33:55
Speaker 1: they did it with the fellow New Yorker, the other
33:58
Speaker 1: New Yorker just kept talking, and they were sort of
34:00
Speaker 1: talking over each other, and they were still enthusiastic and
34:02
Speaker 1: having a good time. But when a New Yorker talked
34:04
Speaker 1: over a Californian or a Londoner, they would stop talking
34:08
Speaker 1: other people, you know. When they went back and looked
34:11
Speaker 1: at it, others viewed it as like these New Yorkers
34:14
Speaker 1: are dominating the conversation. They just want to take over.
34:17
Speaker 1: Anytime I said anything, the New Yorkers were just like, hey,
34:20
Speaker 1: it's all good. This is what we do. And they
34:23
Speaker 1: found that as far as New Yorkers, and the New
34:26
Speaker 1: Yorkers also thought that, like no one joined in, like
34:31
Speaker 1: when they stopped talking, they were like, well, I guess
34:33
Speaker 1: they didn't want to talk or whatever, because they're not
34:35
Speaker 1: interrupting me right exactly. But they did find that other
34:39
Speaker 1: scholars have found that there are these New York like
34:41
Speaker 1: patterns and other cultures Samoan, Japanese and Italian American. And
34:46
Speaker 1: so that's why every Italian American New York family. All
34:50
Speaker 1: they do is just sit around and scream over each
34:52
Speaker 1: other all the time.
34:53
Speaker 2: Right, Hey, Japanese stood out to me and I'm like,
34:55
Speaker 2: that doesn't sound right, And then I thought of have
34:58
Speaker 2: you ever seen a Japanese like Morning Talk?
35:00
Speaker 1: Oh? Sure? Yeah.
35:02
Speaker 2: So the the somebody like a guest or some other
35:05
Speaker 2: anchor something will be talking and then one of the
35:07
Speaker 2: hosts will interject, usually a question before the person is
35:11
Speaker 2: finished talking, and the person stops saying what they were
35:14
Speaker 2: saying and answers that question and adjusts without being offended
35:19
Speaker 2: at all. So it actually happens quite a bit, and
35:23
Speaker 2: usually toward the end of a sentence or a story
35:26
Speaker 2: or something like that. But it does happen a lot.
35:28
Speaker 2: Whereas American English speakers, you are done speaking, then the
35:33
Speaker 2: person starts speaking, or else you have transgressed on that
35:37
Speaker 2: person's turn for sure.
35:39
Speaker 1: Should we take a break? Yeah, all right, we'll take
35:42
Speaker 1: a break and finish up right after this.
35:44
Speaker 2: Stucks Who Stucks?
35:47
Speaker 1: You know it? Stucks.
35:50
Speaker 2: It's a great name.
35:50
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the name of it.
35:53
Speaker 2: It's a great name.
35:55
Speaker 1: All right.
35:55
Speaker 2: Stucks met with an X so we talked about how
36:13
Speaker 2: like all of these are scripts or templates like there's
36:16
Speaker 2: you say something and there's a predictable response, and there's
36:19
Speaker 2: actually you can boil it down to what are called families.
36:24
Speaker 2: So like different types of conversations fall into different kinds
36:27
Speaker 2: of families. The big ones that we've seen are reconstruction, moralizing,
36:32
Speaker 2: and projection. Right. Yeah.
36:34
Speaker 1: Reconstruction you know obviously reconstructing or remembering and sharing something
36:40
Speaker 1: about an event with somebody. The projective is looking to
36:44
Speaker 1: the future. Yeah, it could be very specific like where
36:47
Speaker 1: we going to dinner, or just more like sitting around
36:50
Speaker 1: and chatting out loud about like the real future. And
36:54
Speaker 1: then what was moral communication about good and good and bad?
36:57
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's more about tearing people down or complimenting people,
37:02
Speaker 2: and we are we tend way more toward negativity, tearing
37:06
Speaker 2: people down rather than building people up, and are tearing
37:12
Speaker 2: people down types of genres are way more intricate and
37:16
Speaker 2: sophisticated than are building people up or complimenting. Because we
37:20
Speaker 2: have a negative bias as a species.
37:24
Speaker 1: That's depressing.
37:25
Speaker 2: So we'll I'll grow it one day, just give us
37:28
Speaker 2: several tens of thousands of years.
37:31
Speaker 1: Yeah, So at the beginning we kind of talked to
37:33
Speaker 1: I think we gave an example of how this might
37:35
Speaker 1: be used, like on the job or something, and sort
37:38
Speaker 1: of practical applications do involve that, for sure, Like you
37:41
Speaker 1: might be hired by a company to come in and
37:44
Speaker 1: consult when that company does like has kind of the
37:48
Speaker 1: same kind of conversation over and over with people, like
37:50
Speaker 1: if it's a surgical team or a call center. For sure,
37:54
Speaker 1: whenever you hear this call may be recorded for training
37:57
Speaker 1: and evaluation purposes, that that's probably what they're doing right there,
38:00
Speaker 1: or maybe just judging their own employees and how they're
38:03
Speaker 1: doing on the job.
38:04
Speaker 2: Right for sure. They've also found you can help people
38:08
Speaker 2: get certain types of responses that you're looking for, Like
38:12
Speaker 2: we talked about the emergency psychiatric hospital where they wanted
38:16
Speaker 2: to get the person's name and then trick them into it.
38:19
Speaker 2: There was a guy named John Heritage, unsurprisingly from UCLA,
38:25
Speaker 2: who worked with doctors to figure out how they could
38:27
Speaker 2: get patients to volunteer more problems that they needed help with.
38:32
Speaker 2: And they found that doctors who say, is there anything
38:34
Speaker 2: else that you need help with today? Apparently anything triggers
38:39
Speaker 2: a response a predictable response, which is no. But if
38:43
Speaker 2: you change anything to something that for some reason that
38:47
Speaker 2: particular script or template opens up the possibility of sharing
38:52
Speaker 2: more information and you would just never figure that out.
38:55
Speaker 2: And this is one of the sterling examples of how
38:58
Speaker 2: conversation and let's like actually help things change for the better.
39:04
Speaker 1: Yeah, that was well said.
39:05
Speaker 2: Thank you, wait to go John heritage at all.
39:10
Speaker 1: A woman named Elizabeth Stoko of the London School of
39:13
Speaker 1: Economics and Political Science found this when she studied conversations
39:18
Speaker 1: in a mediation service that people. It seems like in
39:23
Speaker 1: this case, people just kind of wanted to get down
39:25
Speaker 1: to brass tacks on what actually they did. They didn't
39:27
Speaker 1: want to hear things like well we don't take sides
39:29
Speaker 1: here and we don't judge. They really wanted to hear
39:32
Speaker 1: just sort of the step by step process of mediation
39:34
Speaker 1: and how it worked.
39:35
Speaker 2: Yes, she also works with companies that are trying to
39:39
Speaker 2: install customer service bots and I was reading about that
39:41
Speaker 2: it's not going very well yet. People hate customer service
39:46
Speaker 2: bots and there's a there's agree. Yeah, I'm one of
39:49
Speaker 2: them too. There's a question of okay, is the solution
39:53
Speaker 2: making these bots way more human? Like should we insert
39:55
Speaker 2: things like have a box or you know, like waffle
40:00
Speaker 2: like a human does, and from what I saw, the
40:03
Speaker 2: consensus is no, don't do that. Bots should be recognizable
40:07
Speaker 2: and volunteer themselves as bots humans are humans. Keep the
40:10
Speaker 2: two separate. And I don't know which direction it's going.
40:15
Speaker 2: It does kind of seem like the whole thing's in
40:17
Speaker 2: the quagmire currently. But I also did see that bots
40:21
Speaker 2: are poised to start taking over the reins from human
40:25
Speaker 2: conversation analysts and doing it themselves, and then training bots
40:30
Speaker 2: how to be better at their job. So one bot
40:33
Speaker 2: training another bot, right, that's from what I can tell
40:37
Speaker 2: the future of conversation analysis.
40:40
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean with the movie Her that now is
40:44
Speaker 1: like kind of freakily ahead of its time with Scarlett Johansson.
40:49
Speaker 1: I think in that situation, they definitely wanted to make
40:53
Speaker 1: her way more human and do things like stumble words
40:56
Speaker 1: and make mistakes. But if it's something like a customer
40:59
Speaker 1: service spot right, you don't want that. I don't want
41:03
Speaker 1: it at all. But I definitely don't want one that's
41:05
Speaker 1: like I just give Starn't.
41:07
Speaker 2: I cute exactly? Lol. So let's get down to it, though, Chuck.
41:13
Speaker 2: Here's the real reason we started talking about this. Do
41:16
Speaker 2: men interrupt women as much as people think.
41:20
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, this has been something that they've studied
41:22
Speaker 1: a lot since the seventies about you know, the roles
41:25
Speaker 1: that plays, and it's been mixed results. There have been
41:29
Speaker 1: studies that found that men interrupt women much more. There's
41:33
Speaker 1: some that found there's not much of a difference. There
41:37
Speaker 1: was a meta analysis from ninety eight that found that
41:40
Speaker 1: ginger divide becomes more clearcut when looking at intrusive, specifically
41:44
Speaker 1: intrusive interruptions as to cooperative interruptions. And that's kind of
41:49
Speaker 1: what I took away is that it seems like when
41:52
Speaker 1: men are interrupting, it is definitely more intrusive maybe mansplaining, sure,
41:58
Speaker 1: I don't know, yah, and interrupt maybe just as often,
42:01
Speaker 1: but it's much more of the cooperative type, right.
42:05
Speaker 2: And they chalk this up to different kinds of upbringings
42:08
Speaker 2: where girls who become women are raised to essentially socialized
42:15
Speaker 2: through communication, through conversation, so they become masters at it,
42:19
Speaker 2: but they also develop expectations that men don't necessarily fulfill,
42:24
Speaker 2: like cooperative interruptions, like oh, that's right, you don't say.
42:29
Speaker 2: If a man doesn't do that, the women might feel
42:31
Speaker 2: like she's not being listened to and Conversely, boys are
42:35
Speaker 2: raised in a hierarchical manner where they might eventually come
42:41
Speaker 2: to see listening as a form of submission, where instead
42:45
Speaker 2: they're trying to dominate. They want to be the alpha male,
42:48
Speaker 2: they want their puffy vest to be the coolest at
42:51
Speaker 2: their kids football game, and so not only are they
42:54
Speaker 2: not going to cooperatively interrupt, they're not even gonna listen,
42:59
Speaker 2: and they may interrupt competitively too. So there's a lot
43:04
Speaker 2: of at least anecdotal data to back that up for sure.
43:09
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think they also found that menton are
43:12
Speaker 1: interrupt more in groups than a one on one, and
43:15
Speaker 1: that definitely seems to fall in line with, like, you know,
43:19
Speaker 1: trying to establish the power position and like if you're
43:23
Speaker 1: working together in a group. They did also find another
43:26
Speaker 1: interesting correlation where in studies where the first author of
43:29
Speaker 1: the study was a woman, they found bigger differences, and
43:33
Speaker 1: that just could be that the male and female researchers
43:37
Speaker 1: are coding the interruptions in a different way. Pretty interesting,
43:41
Speaker 1: I thought, so too. What about generationally, Well.
43:45
Speaker 2: So apparently gen Z is just throwing a huge wrench
43:47
Speaker 2: in the works. Remember we talked about how at the hospital,
43:51
Speaker 2: the emergency hospital when somebody called and they said, my
43:54
Speaker 2: name is May I help you? Right, the other person
43:57
Speaker 2: felt obligated to give their name. It's not true like
44:00
Speaker 2: when we were growing up, you would not feel like
44:03
Speaker 2: you had to say, oh, well, I'm Josh Clark and
44:05
Speaker 2: here's what I need from you. You just say, hey,
44:08
Speaker 2: I need this or whatever. That's an example of a
44:12
Speaker 2: generational change that took place. Now it's even more pronounced.
44:15
Speaker 2: Apparently with gen Z there's something called the gen Z
44:18
Speaker 2: stare where they're essentially pulling a Josh where you can
44:22
Speaker 2: tell them a story and they just stare back at
44:25
Speaker 2: you blankly at the end when it's their turn. And
44:27
Speaker 2: apparently it's fairly disconcerting.
44:30
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've heard about it and then I was like,
44:32
Speaker 1: what is that? Then I read up about it and
44:34
Speaker 1: it is very disconcerting, as is the phone call thing,
44:37
Speaker 1: which I haven't experienced because people don't call each other
44:40
Speaker 1: much anymore. Yeah, but apparently gen Z when they answer
44:44
Speaker 1: a phone, they don't go hello, They expect the other
44:47
Speaker 1: person to talk for so apparently there's a gen Z
44:50
Speaker 1: thing where they just answer the phone like this.
44:53
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then the other hello, or do you need help?
45:00
Speaker 2: That's what I would say.
45:01
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I mean, I guess I've definitely witnessed the
45:05
Speaker 1: gen z stare with our friends' kids here and there
45:09
Speaker 1: to where you're just like, boy, I just like I
45:12
Speaker 1: must be the least interesting human on earth because they're
45:14
Speaker 1: just blankly looking at me.
45:16
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. Or you can look at it the other
45:18
Speaker 2: way and be like, yeah, good talking to you. I'll
45:21
Speaker 2: see you later.
45:22
Speaker 1: Yeah. But I've also found, especially when you're around teenagers,
45:27
Speaker 1: like your friends that have teenage kids, like just don't
45:30
Speaker 1: even you know, maybe say something nice and hello, but
45:33
Speaker 1: don't try to strike up a conversation. They don't want
45:35
Speaker 1: to talk to you. No, just don't, I think, just
45:38
Speaker 1: move along.
45:38
Speaker 2: That's been true since Tuck Tuck was a teenager, you
45:41
Speaker 2: know what I mean.
45:42
Speaker 1: You know what I usually do. I'll go like, Ye're like, oh, hey,
45:45
Speaker 1: how's it going. How's school going this year? Oh? Good, good,
45:49
Speaker 1: glad to hear it, and I'll just walk away like
45:51
Speaker 1: a nice thing to say, and then just end it.
45:53
Speaker 2: You don't follow up with like, are you really anxious
45:55
Speaker 2: when you wake up in the morning before school?
45:59
Speaker 1: No, no, no, no one wants to hear from an adult.
46:02
Speaker 1: If you're at a certain age.
46:04
Speaker 2: Okay, I'm going to have to rethink my approach. Then.
46:07
Speaker 1: Do you remember when you were a kid like I
46:10
Speaker 1: don't remember even having conversations with adults?
46:12
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, no, absolutely not. You know, I'm totally kidding
46:16
Speaker 2: this in everything I'm saying, right, Oh yeah, yeah, no,
46:19
Speaker 2: I remember that it was very intimidating to talk to
46:21
Speaker 2: an adult, let alone having very little in common.
46:25
Speaker 1: Yeah, and they didn't want to talk to us.
46:26
Speaker 2: No, No, for sure.
46:28
Speaker 1: Gen X was famously ignored by most adults.
46:31
Speaker 2: Yeah, very famous. Just ask Douglas Copelan.
46:35
Speaker 1: Who's that.
46:36
Speaker 2: He's the guy who wrote gen X.
46:38
Speaker 1: Oh? Okay, was that a book? Famous book?
46:40
Speaker 2: Yes? I believe he's the one who coined the term.
46:43
Speaker 1: Oh you should read it.
46:45
Speaker 2: It's good. It's a quick read. It's not like an
46:48
Speaker 2: essay or anything like that. It's his story about three
46:50
Speaker 2: gen xers and just going through life over I think,
46:54
Speaker 2: just the course of a few days.
46:56
Speaker 1: I've been a reading fool lately. I'll put it on
46:58
Speaker 1: the list.
46:58
Speaker 2: Nice. I just started in, and I'll bet I regret
47:02
Speaker 2: ever announcing it publicly.
47:03
Speaker 1: Because that David Foster Waller.
47:06
Speaker 2: Yes, and I love that guy. But this is a
47:08
Speaker 2: slog already.
47:10
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm finishing. I just finished the bonobook that I
47:13
Speaker 1: had put down like a year ago, and I am
47:16
Speaker 1: almost done with the Don Felder of the Eagles. Good lord.
47:21
Speaker 1: You might be asking why would you read that? It's
47:23
Speaker 1: specifically because I used to love the Eagles and he
47:28
Speaker 1: apparently the book was just really bitchy.
47:32
Speaker 2: Oh okay, yeah, I could say.
47:34
Speaker 1: I was like, Ooh, I want to read this because
47:35
Speaker 1: he's like, he hates those guys, so let me read this.
47:37
Speaker 2: Did Matthew Modine recommend you read it in his diary
47:40
Speaker 2: about Full Metal Jacket?
47:43
Speaker 1: No, that's my bathroom book. So I've just been slow
47:45
Speaker 1: rolling that one.
47:46
Speaker 2: Gotcha. I don't think you should use words like slow
47:49
Speaker 2: rolling when you talk about being in the bathroom.
47:52
Speaker 1: Good point.
47:53
Speaker 2: Well, I think we just brought about listener mail, whether
47:57
Speaker 2: we like it or not, don't you.
48:00
Speaker 1: That's right. This is not a really correction, just sort
48:03
Speaker 1: of maybe a gentle reminder about our history of orthodonture.
48:06
Speaker 1: I feel like we might have focused a little too
48:08
Speaker 1: much on appearance this from erin. Hey, guys, appreciate the
48:11
Speaker 1: depth of curiosity you bring to each topic, and I
48:13
Speaker 1: wanted to offer an update regarding orthodontia, it's not just
48:16
Speaker 1: about appearance anymore. The field has evolved significantly in current
48:20
Speaker 1: research shows that strong connection between jaw and bite alignment
48:23
Speaker 1: and conditions like sleep, apnea, ADHD, and TMJ dysfunction, which
48:28
Speaker 1: is of course totally true. While some of these links
48:30
Speaker 1: were suspected years ago, orthodonic treatment today is increasingly focused
48:33
Speaker 1: on preventing or mitigating these issues and the ute before
48:37
Speaker 1: they become chronic. On a personal note, my journey with
48:40
Speaker 1: TMJ dysfunction led me down the path of exploring treatment options,
48:44
Speaker 1: and after years of discomfort, I found relief through invisil line.
48:47
Speaker 1: It not only helped with my smile, realign my bite
48:50
Speaker 1: and significantly reduce my TMJ symptoms and open my eyes
48:54
Speaker 1: to the broader health benefits of orthodonic care. And that
48:57
Speaker 1: is warm regards from Aaron. Very nice email Aaron, and
49:00
Speaker 1: visit right.
49:03
Speaker 2: Yeah exactly, thanks a lot, Erin. I'm really glad Erin
49:05
Speaker 2: with an E or a double A or one that's
49:08
Speaker 2: E R I N. Thanks a lot, Aaron. I'm glad
49:11
Speaker 2: that you were able to take care of your TMJ.
49:13
Speaker 2: I can't imagine that that's a fun chronic condition. You know,
49:18
Speaker 2: if you got rid of a condition that you're happy about,
49:20
Speaker 2: we want to hear about that, or for whatever reason
49:23
Speaker 2: you want to write in. You can send us an
49:25
Speaker 2: email send it off to stuff podcast at iHeartRadio dot com.
49:32
Speaker 1: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For
49:34
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