Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / 6-year-old autistic girl shot, killed by mommy.

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6-year-old autistic girl shot, killed by mommy. · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. How does a six year
0:14
Speaker 1: old little girl end up dead? And what's the last
0:20
Speaker 1: thing the little girl sees before she dies her mother?
0:32
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Take a listen now to
0:41
Speaker 1: our friends at ABC seven News. This is Reporter Anthony Johnson.
0:46
Speaker 1: Family members making a grizzly discovery. A mother and her
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Speaker 1: six year old daughter shot to death. The bodies of
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Speaker 1: the two found inside the West Orange apartment on Sunday,
0:54
Speaker 1: New Jersey. Reporter Anthony Johnson with the latest on the investigation.
0:58
Speaker 1: It's tragedy occurred in a normally quiet corner apartment building.
1:02
Speaker 1: Whether we're say they normally know each other. So everyone
1:05
Speaker 1: that we've spoken to today says they are in shop.
1:09
Speaker 1: I guess they are. A six year old child dead.
1:13
Speaker 1: The last thing she sees is Mommy's face. Joining me
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Speaker 1: an all Star panel. James shell nutt twenty seven years
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Speaker 1: Metro major case including SWAT, been on many many a
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Speaker 1: crime scene now lawyer at shell nut Lawfirm dot com.
1:29
Speaker 1: Doctor Jeff Gardeer, clinical psychologist, Professor Behavioral Medicine at Truro,
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Speaker 1: author of the Causes of Autism and you can find
1:38
Speaker 1: him at Doctor Jeff gardeer dot com. Stephen Lampley, former
1:43
Speaker 1: cop undercover, author of Twelve and Murdered. You can find
1:47
Speaker 1: it on Amazon. He's a Stephen David Lampley dot com.
1:51
Speaker 1: His book Twelve and Murdered. Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University.
1:56
Speaker 1: Author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon. Sure of
2:00
Speaker 1: an idiot series Poisonous Liaisons on the True Crime Network.
2:04
Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan with me death investigator, but first straight
2:08
Speaker 1: out to lead a news anchor for w DBO Ray
2:11
Speaker 1: Kiputo Ray, how does a six year old little girl
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Speaker 1: end up dead? And Nancy, I mean, I'll tell you
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Speaker 1: it's not It's the thing that's farthest from your mind
2:22
Speaker 1: with a little child. But in this case, it was
2:26
Speaker 1: her own mom. It was the person who was there
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Speaker 1: to protect her. Kids are not supposed to die at
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Speaker 1: the hands of their parents. But this is what happened.
2:34
Speaker 1: It's very hard for me to believe. You know when
2:36
Speaker 1: you look statistically at methods and assessment of homicide and suicide.
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Speaker 1: To you, Justice Scott Morgan, You've been on many a
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Speaker 1: scene where you have to decide what exactly happened. That's
2:48
Speaker 1: your job. Very rarely do you see a female of
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Speaker 1: this age, thirty six year old Simba Bardon affect a
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Speaker 1: murder with a gun, statistically speaking, much less a suicide
3:09
Speaker 1: by gun. That's very unheard of, Jay Scott, I think
3:16
Speaker 1: that at one point, Tom, that would be the case.
3:18
Speaker 1: But I think the pressures of life now, the space
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Speaker 1: that women occupy in the workforce, I think that that's
3:26
Speaker 1: changed a bit. They're under a lot more pressure. Throughout
3:30
Speaker 1: my career, I saw what you were saying early on,
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Speaker 1: but as time has gone along, I saw more and
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Speaker 1: more women dying as a result of self inflicted gunshot wounds,
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Speaker 1: particularly towards the end of my career as a practitioner
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Speaker 1: than I had way back in the early eighties at
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Speaker 1: the start of my career. You may see it more
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Speaker 1: and more, but still I believe it's statistically very low.
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Speaker 1: A woman kills her child, it's usually by asphyxiation, overdosing
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Speaker 1: them on you know, ben and drill or whatever you
4:01
Speaker 1: want to od them on, drowning them. I haven't seen
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Speaker 1: a lot of women that shoot their six year old
4:11
Speaker 1: daughter dead. Guys, take a listen to our friends at
4:15
Speaker 1: ABC seven, Anthony Johnson. Authorities let residents know there was
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Speaker 1: no threat to the community, but this has rattled to
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Speaker 1: everyone living in this West Orange apartment complex. Authorities say
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Speaker 1: there was never any sign of forced entry into the apartment,
4:29
Speaker 1: but they are continuing their investigation. Well, right there to you,
4:34
Speaker 1: James shell Nut shell Nut Law from dot com. You're
4:37
Speaker 1: seeing where the cops in mind is going. There's no
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Speaker 1: forced entry, there's nothing stolen, there's no sex attack. It's
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Speaker 1: all leading up to one thing. And that one thing
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Speaker 1: as what shell Nutt's leading up to a murder suicide. Yeah,
4:52
Speaker 1: because nobody broke in, nothing is missing. The home is
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Speaker 1: at ransacked. You've got a thirty six year old mother
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Speaker 1: in the home with her dead six year old little girl.
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Speaker 1: Now what do I understand, Ray Kiputo about the little
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Speaker 1: girl having quote special needs? Yeah, it's she was autistic.
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Speaker 1: You know, there are a lot of children these days
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Speaker 1: from her identified as being in the spectrum. So we
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Speaker 1: just know that the child presented a different challenge to
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Speaker 1: the mom. And think about when this happened. This happened
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Speaker 1: at the end of May, so this school is still
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Speaker 1: in a session in West Orange in that area. Wait
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Speaker 1: a minute to doctor Jeff Gardier for a thirty six
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Speaker 1: year old mom, and I understand that you've got the
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Speaker 1: mom with a six year old little girl with special needs.
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Speaker 1: It's during COVID, so the little girl is at home.
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Speaker 1: Daphne Young from child Help and their number eight hundred
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Speaker 1: and four two two four four thirty three, Daphne. How
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Speaker 1: is it different for a parent with a special needs
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Speaker 1: child versus a parent with a ordinary child and child Nancy,
6:03
Speaker 1: you know, when you were looking forward to your twins,
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Speaker 1: you probably already had a lot of dreams in mind.
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Speaker 1: This is what I'm going to name my kids, this
6:10
Speaker 1: is what they're going to do in their future. I
6:12
Speaker 1: hope they go to this college, maybe my alma mater.
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Speaker 1: And as you learn that you have a special needs child,
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Speaker 1: a lot of those dreams have to shift and change.
6:21
Speaker 1: A lot of the future goals get rewritten, and wonderful
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Speaker 1: parents can reboot and pivot and create new dreams and
6:29
Speaker 1: lives and new goals and objectives. But there's a little
6:32
Speaker 1: period of mourning that comes from just kind of the
6:35
Speaker 1: way that we all imagine our children's futures. And so
6:39
Speaker 1: when a child has special needs that involve day to
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Speaker 1: day care, it's also very difficult just to schedule life
6:47
Speaker 1: you know, there's always maybe a need that comes up,
6:50
Speaker 1: a medical appointment that has to happen, an emergency room run,
6:54
Speaker 1: or an outburst you weren't planning for, and it can
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Speaker 1: be very difficult to get a sense of normalcy and
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Speaker 1: bounds in life. What does COVID have to do with this,
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Speaker 1: Jeff Gardier, Well, what we know is that if we're
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Speaker 1: dealing with a child who has special needs, going to
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Speaker 1: an online education that is one of the least effective
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Speaker 1: ways to be able to help the child, because these
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Speaker 1: wonderful children really need to be in the school setting
7:23
Speaker 1: to get all of their services. Quite often they just
7:27
Speaker 1: don't have the focus to be able to stay in
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Speaker 1: front of a computer. That's part of some of the
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Speaker 1: ADHD that they have. And the other part of that
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Speaker 1: is it's overwhelming for the parents who are looking at
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Speaker 1: all of these special needs. In this case, the parent
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Speaker 1: not getting the support most likely, and it was just
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Speaker 1: overwhelming for her to now have to be able to
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Speaker 1: coordinate all of these services online. And who knows what
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Speaker 1: other emotions she was going through, including depression and anxiety
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Speaker 1: from having to deal with all of this COVID related
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Speaker 1: issues on her own with her daughter yakity, yakity yak
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Speaker 1: stress pressure, I get it, but does she your own
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Speaker 1: six year old child? And also, when you're talking about
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Speaker 1: stresses and pressure, this mother planned what she did, Jeff Gardier,
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Speaker 1: because she intentionally waited until her husband walked out. I
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Speaker 1: don't know if he ran an errand I don't know
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Speaker 1: if he went to work, but she waited until he left.
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Speaker 1: Then she secured a gun and shot her six year
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Speaker 1: old daughter dead. Now able to plan and murder her
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Speaker 1: child without being stopped, that shows me intent. And if
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Speaker 1: I see intent, that means this woman was not insane
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Speaker 1: at the time. Gardier. No, it certainly does show that
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Speaker 1: she was not insane, but it doesn't preclude that there
9:00
Speaker 1: were serious mental health issues that may have been part
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Speaker 1: of her life. After all, she then turned around and
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Speaker 1: killed herself. So this wasn't a crime of opportunism. It
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Speaker 1: was one of it appears to be Nancy, one of
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Speaker 1: desperation and complete helplessness in her life. Yes, doctor Jeff
9:24
Speaker 1: Guardier is a board certified clinical psychologists. Yes, he's the
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Speaker 1: professor of Behavioral Medicine at Truro. Yes, he's an author
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Speaker 1: of the Causes of Autism. And I don't claim to
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Speaker 1: know more than him about mental illness, but I do
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Speaker 1: know the mother fortuitously waited until her husband left and
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Speaker 1: then she kills her six year old child. Now, maybe
9:47
Speaker 1: a jury would have agreed with me that the mother
9:50
Speaker 1: knew exactly what she was doing and as she turned
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Speaker 1: the gun on herself out of feelings of guilt. Crime
10:08
Speaker 1: Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, we're talking about the death
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Speaker 1: of a six year old little girl, so defenseless, and
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Speaker 1: to top it all off, she said home alone with
10:20
Speaker 1: mommy during COVID listen. Thirty six year old Socialmida Bartend
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Speaker 1: and her six year old daughter are found dead by
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Speaker 1: a family member and their West Orange, New Jersey apartment
10:32
Speaker 1: on May thirty first. The mother and daughter sustained fatal
10:35
Speaker 1: gunshot wounds. Their deaths are being investigated by West Orange
10:38
Speaker 1: Police and the Homicide in Major Crimes Task Force. The
10:42
Speaker 1: name of the six year old female victim has not
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Speaker 1: been released. The child attended Kelly School and with special needs.
10:48
Speaker 1: When I'm trying to figure out as how the whole
10:50
Speaker 1: thing could have been avoided, guys, you're hearing from our
10:54
Speaker 1: friends at crime online dot Com. Listen to this. They
10:57
Speaker 1: were very quiet. That didn't social lies with anybody, because
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Speaker 1: everybody in our corner over there, we all sit outside,
11:05
Speaker 1: we're friendly, and it's it's it's unusual that's something like this.
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Speaker 1: It's very everybody by surprise, everybody. You're hearing our friend
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Speaker 1: from ABC seven. You know, I'm very curious to you,
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Speaker 1: Steve Lampley, author speaker, the author of twelve and murdered
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Speaker 1: the former cop Stephen. Why is it that no one
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Speaker 1: believes it can happen in their neighborhood. You just heard
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Speaker 1: a neighbor saying, very quiet, there's no crime there, a
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Speaker 1: beautiful corner apartment looking out, and they're all stunned. When
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Speaker 1: will people get through their heads that crime happens in
11:47
Speaker 1: every neighborhood. Fancy, that's unfortunately the fact of the matter.
11:52
Speaker 1: In a similar note, when I go out to schools
11:55
Speaker 1: and I go out to talk to parent groups, I
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Speaker 1: inevitably almost one hundred percent at the time, here's the phrase,
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Speaker 1: well we live so and so it won't happen here.
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Speaker 1: I hear that over and over and over, and I
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Speaker 1: don't know why people think they have immunity when they don't.
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Speaker 1: This crime happens everywhere. You may not hear about it,
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Speaker 1: but it happens everywhere you know. To you death investigator
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Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan, it's assumed that this is a murder suicide.
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Speaker 1: How do you look at the forensics, at the trajectory paths,
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Speaker 1: at the location of bullets, cartridges, blood spatter and determine
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Speaker 1: was this a murder suicide or was this a double homicide. Well,
12:39
Speaker 1: one of the things that you've already mentioned actually is
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Speaker 1: a big clue for us is are there any signs
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Speaker 1: of fourth century, four century or struggle at the scene.
12:48
Speaker 1: And that's that's a big red flag for us. Also,
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Speaker 1: I've worked a lot of familial murder suicide cases over
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Speaker 1: my career, and you know, you have those that involved
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Speaker 1: the husband and wife, and those are actually different than
13:03
Speaker 1: when you work those that are involved in a parent
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Speaker 1: a child. I've actually seen cases, Nancy, where people have
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Speaker 1: posed their children, They'll put stuffed animals around them, all
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Speaker 1: these sorts of things after they have killed the child,
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Speaker 1: and so sometimes you'll have this adjustment of the scene.
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Speaker 1: So you have to be very very careful when you,
13:22
Speaker 1: for instance, examine the wounds on the child. I have
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Speaker 1: no idea where the injuries on this child are However,
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Speaker 1: I would be looking for, first off, a range of fire,
13:32
Speaker 1: that is the distance from the muzzle to the injury,
13:35
Speaker 1: and also the trajectory that it traveled. Was it from
13:38
Speaker 1: above to below? Was it from side to side? And
13:42
Speaker 1: try to get an idea as to what position was
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Speaker 1: the victim in relative to the shooter. And this is
13:49
Speaker 1: going to tell us a lot. Were they in a
13:52
Speaker 1: position where they could get very intimate with a person,
13:55
Speaker 1: I mean up close and personal in order to facilitate that?
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Speaker 1: And that also to this idea, how purposed was the
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Speaker 1: person to kill this individual? Did they just kind of
14:06
Speaker 1: hare them, scare them, wound them, you know, maybe they
14:07
Speaker 1: shot him a couple of times, or maybe while the
14:10
Speaker 1: child was asleep. And I've seen this happen. They were
14:13
Speaker 1: essentially executed in their sleep. So all of that has
14:17
Speaker 1: to be born in mind when you're conducting investigation into
14:19
Speaker 1: these things. Straight out to James and Shellnut twenty seven
14:23
Speaker 1: years metro major case now lawyer at Shalnut Law from
14:26
Speaker 1: dot com. Where would video surveillance and potential cell phone
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Speaker 1: nav way into this to determine who, if anyone else
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Speaker 1: was in that apartment? Well, you know, I mean, a
14:40
Speaker 1: lot of people nowadays have ringing doorbells, a lot of
14:43
Speaker 1: people have surveillance cameras. Even in these apartment complexes. The
14:47
Speaker 1: complexes themselves have videos that would potentially show whether or
14:52
Speaker 1: not someone was making entrier or exit. Supposedly there was
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Speaker 1: another family member earlier in the day that was at
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Speaker 1: the house. I believe that father or her husband that
15:03
Speaker 1: had left, but this supposed to occurred while it was gone.
15:07
Speaker 1: You know, looking at GPS naval phones, you know, the
15:09
Speaker 1: first thing you're gonna want to do is check check
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Speaker 1: that father, that husband's phone to see if there's any
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Speaker 1: indication any tracking, an electronic footprint to indicate whether or
15:19
Speaker 1: not he was or was not in that area at
15:21
Speaker 1: the time, and I back up his alibi. I think
15:23
Speaker 1: those things are critical to not just necessarily ruling someone in,
15:28
Speaker 1: but also ruling someone out as a suspect. I agree
15:31
Speaker 1: with you, shal Nut, because if there was a ring
15:34
Speaker 1: a doorbell, we use ours all the time, you can
15:38
Speaker 1: see who's coming in and out or even just to
15:40
Speaker 1: the door. So when the father left home just before
15:44
Speaker 1: the shooting's occurred, that would be captured on the ring video.
15:48
Speaker 1: We understand there's only one entrance to the door. That
15:52
Speaker 1: may or may not be correct, But if so, was
15:56
Speaker 1: there video on the corners of nearby apartment buildings directed
16:00
Speaker 1: toward the home? If so, and very likely so, you
16:04
Speaker 1: would have seen if someone goes in or out of
16:06
Speaker 1: the home from both doors. Also regarding the cell phone navigation,
16:12
Speaker 1: you would see where the father went. Cell phones even
16:16
Speaker 1: pick up how many steps you've gone, whether you have
16:18
Speaker 1: the app or not on your FOTBD, very often your
16:21
Speaker 1: cell phone is tracking your every move. I've seen murder
16:25
Speaker 1: cases cracked just recently because a husband showed up eighteen
16:30
Speaker 1: steps on a foot bed or a phone nav when
16:33
Speaker 1: he said he was asleep at the time of his
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Speaker 1: wife's murder. Bam busted, convicted. So what do we know
16:40
Speaker 1: about who's going in and out of the home? What
16:44
Speaker 1: do we know about the positioning of the bodies? As
16:47
Speaker 1: just Scott Morgan tells you, they're going to be looking
16:50
Speaker 1: at the trajectory path. That simply means the angle of
16:55
Speaker 1: the entry and the exit, wounds on the bodies where
17:00
Speaker 1: the bodies found snuggling together. Remember Jess Goot Morgan in
17:05
Speaker 1: the Aurea Yates case where she killed every last one
17:08
Speaker 1: of her children by drowning them dead. She then staged them.
17:13
Speaker 1: She also carefully waited for her husband Rusty, to leave,
17:18
Speaker 1: and as she killed all the children one by one,
17:22
Speaker 1: the children struggle to live. Even the baby Mary was
17:26
Speaker 1: covered in bruises where she was forced to be held
17:30
Speaker 1: under water. So I'm just curious about your analysis regarding
17:37
Speaker 1: the trajectory paths and why this was so quickly deemed
17:42
Speaker 1: a murder suicide. Joe Scott, Well, I think that what
17:47
Speaker 1: you have we call it a symmetry, and that is
17:50
Speaker 1: where you have one individual that is inn a dominant
17:54
Speaker 1: position over another, and you know, there's all kinds of
17:56
Speaker 1: psycho psychological things she can playing with asymmetry, but in
18:01
Speaker 1: a physical sense, what is the relationship between the larger
18:07
Speaker 1: person and the smaller person and how close in that
18:09
Speaker 1: space then can they get to this individual? Now Here,
18:12
Speaker 1: we're just talking about a six year old girl who
18:14
Speaker 1: in fact is disabled, so it really wouldn't take that much.
18:18
Speaker 1: I think that analyzing this scene from relative to the
18:23
Speaker 1: range of fire and trajectory is going to be very
18:26
Speaker 1: very important. One key element here is you're going to
18:31
Speaker 1: have a couple of collections of blood here. Okay, you'll
18:34
Speaker 1: have what was generated from this precious little angel and
18:38
Speaker 1: then from the perpetrator, her mom. So, for instance, if
18:41
Speaker 1: you have some kind of blood staining that's associated with
18:44
Speaker 1: the little girl, you're gonna want to know if that's
18:46
Speaker 1: the initial impact, and that goes to the bigger issue
18:50
Speaker 1: like staging the scene. If she was removed from that
18:53
Speaker 1: spot and then moved to another, that's going to change
18:55
Speaker 1: the relationship. All in this my suspicion is is that
18:59
Speaker 1: she probably killed this child in that location. There was
19:03
Speaker 1: no staging involved. That's going to give the police an
19:06
Speaker 1: indication that she killed her right there, and then the
19:09
Speaker 1: mother went on to kill herself later. Well, for instance,
19:12
Speaker 1: in the ANDREWA. Yates case, we see where the mothers
19:14
Speaker 1: staged all the children, taking them out of the bathtub
19:17
Speaker 1: and then laying them out on a bed side by
19:22
Speaker 1: side all of the children. Time stories with Nancy Grace. Guys,
19:39
Speaker 1: we're talking about what we believe to be a murder
19:42
Speaker 1: suicide or isn't I know this much? A six year
19:46
Speaker 1: old little girl with special needs is dead by gunshot wound?
19:54
Speaker 1: Did mommy do the deed? Take a listen to our
19:57
Speaker 1: friends at ABC seven. According to Na whereas the little
20:00
Speaker 1: girl was killed by a mother, a mother who felt
20:03
Speaker 1: too much pressure raising a child with special needs. According
20:06
Speaker 1: to a source, the father had left the house at
20:08
Speaker 1: the time, and while he was gone, the mother took
20:11
Speaker 1: out a gun and shot her six year old daughter
20:13
Speaker 1: and then turned the gun on herself and what is
20:16
Speaker 1: being described as a murder suicide. According to sources, the
20:20
Speaker 1: mother had expressed feelings of being overwhelmed, but no one
20:24
Speaker 1: could have expected a tragedy like this to be the
20:27
Speaker 1: said final result. Not to circle back to Andrea Yates,
20:31
Speaker 1: possibly the most high profile case where mom in that
20:36
Speaker 1: case murders multiple children. I remember speaking with the husband,
20:41
Speaker 1: Rusty Yates, and many people wondered could he not tell
20:46
Speaker 1: what condition Andrew Yates was in. There was a point,
20:50
Speaker 1: I don't know if you remember this or not, out
20:53
Speaker 1: to you, doctor Jeff Gardier, where Rusty Yates had sold
20:59
Speaker 1: the home, given up the home and moved the wife
21:02
Speaker 1: and all. I think there were five children, all of
21:05
Speaker 1: the children into a school bus. And he had a
21:11
Speaker 1: very good job. I want to say he was an engineer,
21:14
Speaker 1: not sure about that, but of that ilk of education.
21:19
Speaker 1: So why would he put his wife and children to
21:23
Speaker 1: live in a school bus. Certainly it appears that it
21:27
Speaker 1: was a very poor judgment, a way to marginalize some
21:32
Speaker 1: of the pressure in his own life. Perhaps a very
21:37
Speaker 1: very selfish act. But it again speaks to and I
21:42
Speaker 1: think what we may be seeing here just being completely
21:46
Speaker 1: overwhelmed by the pressures of the financial and emotional caring
21:52
Speaker 1: for a child. Certainly not an excuse, but a possible
21:57
Speaker 1: mitigating factor. It's not the first time that a mother
22:01
Speaker 1: has killed her children and oftentimes herself. Just recently in
22:06
Speaker 1: the Knees a twenty five year old mother who reportedly
22:11
Speaker 1: killed her own three children two of her stepchildren. Take
22:15
Speaker 1: a listen to our friends at the Sun dot com.
22:18
Speaker 1: We're talking about Orianna Myers. She shot all five kids
22:24
Speaker 1: in the head. She left a letter of confession stating
22:27
Speaker 1: she shot all five kids in the head. She set
22:30
Speaker 1: the house on fire and went outside and shot herself.
22:33
Speaker 1: My name is ravenbaum Garner and I'm the mother of
22:37
Speaker 1: Sean and Riley. I received a picture and some text
22:42
Speaker 1: messages from Brian's cousin who lives down the road. The
22:46
Speaker 1: house was on fire, completely engulfed. I jumped in my
22:48
Speaker 1: car and I left and I got Aaron House was gone.
22:53
Speaker 1: It was a chimney left in flames. She she took
22:57
Speaker 1: their lives. How good you do that to children? They describe,
23:03
Speaker 1: She's a shotgun, a single action shotgun, so you have
23:06
Speaker 1: to break in down and reload it after every single shot.
23:10
Speaker 1: So how can you do that five times? Five children?
23:17
Speaker 1: I loved them and I miss them, and I know
23:23
Speaker 1: they're looking out for me and their sister. Overwhelmed to
23:26
Speaker 1: the point that you not only kill yourself but all
23:30
Speaker 1: of your children. To James shell Nutt, a twenty seven
23:35
Speaker 1: years Metro major case Now lawyer, James, I heard what
23:38
Speaker 1: Joe Scott Mortgage just said, but I still say it
23:42
Speaker 1: is very rare for a female of this age to
23:48
Speaker 1: kill themselves by gun, much less in Oriana Meyer's case
23:53
Speaker 1: with a shotgun. Yeah, I agree, And you know, Joe Scott,
23:58
Speaker 1: boys of performing society's change culture has changed and so
24:01
Speaker 1: that has effected the numbers. But I still think you
24:03
Speaker 1: know you're correct that it is very rare. Matter of fact, murders.
24:06
Speaker 1: Suicide in itself is very rare. You know the times
24:09
Speaker 1: that I've come across it is normally a middle aged
24:12
Speaker 1: male as the perpetrator who murders his wife and or
24:18
Speaker 1: kids and then kills himself. Very rarely is it a female,
24:23
Speaker 1: And very rarely, especially with the exempt you brought up
24:25
Speaker 1: men to go as it. A shotgun is a very
24:29
Speaker 1: rare occurrence. You've got to react between each shot, giving
24:33
Speaker 1: you time under the law to form intent. Out to you.
24:38
Speaker 1: Stephen Lampley, former cop, now author and speaker, author of
24:42
Speaker 1: twelve and Murdered on Amazon, Steve Lampley, have you ever
24:46
Speaker 1: seen a female of this age the mom is thirty
24:50
Speaker 1: six years old, kill her children and herself by gun?
24:55
Speaker 1: Nancy haven't. But now there are exceptions. A matter of fact,
25:00
Speaker 1: next police partner attempted to kill herself with a gun.
25:04
Speaker 1: But there are exceptions to that rule. But most of
25:07
Speaker 1: the time, when we find it again, I'll go back
25:10
Speaker 1: to Joe Scott. He's correct. Times are changing, it's becoming
25:13
Speaker 1: a lot more frequent. But I have in my career,
25:16
Speaker 1: I've never come across that, neither of ibe. But I
25:19
Speaker 1: believe you, Joe Scott, and may be more frequent, maybe
25:22
Speaker 1: one or two more a year across the country, but
25:24
Speaker 1: I'll go with you. Man. And we were saying earlier,
25:27
Speaker 1: and I was speaking to Lampley about this doesn't matter
25:30
Speaker 1: where you live or how much money you make, crime
25:33
Speaker 1: can touch your life. I want to touch on another
25:35
Speaker 1: aspect to you, doctor Jeff Gardier, who wrote The Causes
25:39
Speaker 1: of Autism. When this mother is saying that she is
25:42
Speaker 1: overwhelmed with raising her six year old daughter with special
25:46
Speaker 1: needs to the point where she kills martyrs her daughter
25:50
Speaker 1: and we think takes her own life, what does she
25:54
Speaker 1: mean by overwhelmed? Quite often what we see is that
25:59
Speaker 1: our educational institutions Nancy, as much as they may want
26:04
Speaker 1: to try, are not completely sensitive to the needs of
26:08
Speaker 1: parents who have special needs children. They may be able
26:12
Speaker 1: to give the children the care that they need, the
26:16
Speaker 1: special programs, the individualized educational programs, but the parents are
26:22
Speaker 1: pretty much left on their own in dealing with their
26:26
Speaker 1: own emotions around this, and as well, society makes a
26:30
Speaker 1: lot of judgments against our incredible children who have some
26:35
Speaker 1: of these issues, and so these parents feel that they
26:40
Speaker 1: are alone in dealing with the needs of their children.
26:45
Speaker 1: Daphne On from Child Help with Stephanie, what would you
26:48
Speaker 1: have said to Shishmima Bardan. I think any parent in
26:53
Speaker 1: crisis needs to hear there's help. It's okay to be scared,
26:58
Speaker 1: it's okay to be over but your child needs love
27:03
Speaker 1: and care and safety. And if you don't feel like
27:06
Speaker 1: a safe person today, we're not going to shame you.
27:09
Speaker 1: We're going to give you help and somebody can step
27:11
Speaker 1: in and take care of that, and you can start
27:13
Speaker 1: to get some services you need to get the assistance
27:17
Speaker 1: to make this a better situation, because at the end
27:20
Speaker 1: of the day, your child is a child of God
27:22
Speaker 1: and deserves that love and security and care, and there's
27:26
Speaker 1: a lot of people willing to help with that. I
27:28
Speaker 1: want to tell you about a friend of mine in
27:32
Speaker 1: my life and she has we met through her having twins,
27:38
Speaker 1: and she has two girls the age of my twins.
27:44
Speaker 1: They're now thirteam, extremely premature. They both start off with
27:48
Speaker 1: a lot of special needs. One still has special needs.
27:51
Speaker 1: Can I tell you, doctor Jeff, She's totally quit her
27:55
Speaker 1: job everything because she has to work so hard. She's
28:01
Speaker 1: had to work so hard to get a child advocate,
28:05
Speaker 1: to get a special person at the school to help
28:09
Speaker 1: keep the children learning. I mean, it has become more
28:14
Speaker 1: than a full time job to get her children, her
28:18
Speaker 1: two girls in public schools. What they need to just
28:23
Speaker 1: get through the day, and I'd like to report they
28:26
Speaker 1: are more than getting through the day. They're both in
28:30
Speaker 1: their regular grade now and they're both playing team hockey
28:36
Speaker 1: with the league, both the girls. But it took all
28:41
Speaker 1: that pain and suffering, having to actually quit her job
28:45
Speaker 1: to navigate the system for her two little girls, Jeff,
28:49
Speaker 1: And I mean, I don't know how she did it,
28:52
Speaker 1: and she's just one person that I know doing it.
28:56
Speaker 1: It's very hard when you say the education system does
28:59
Speaker 1: not meet the needs are parents whose children or special needs?
29:02
Speaker 1: You are so right, doctor Jeff. Yes, Nancy. And what
29:07
Speaker 1: we find is that it's important that these parents have
29:10
Speaker 1: support groups other people who are dealing with the same
29:14
Speaker 1: sorts of situations, so they can learn empowerment strategies but
29:18
Speaker 1: also bear their souls as to some of the difficulties
29:21
Speaker 1: they face. And let me just say one last thing.
29:25
Speaker 1: Many parents know this with their children who have special needs.
29:31
Speaker 1: The fear that parents have that their children will not
29:35
Speaker 1: be picked on, will not be bullied because they know
29:39
Speaker 1: they do have some of these needs, some of these
29:42
Speaker 1: special needs, and wanting to keep them safe at all times.
29:46
Speaker 1: So when you look at all of these things in totality,
29:49
Speaker 1: getting the right services, making sure that they live great lives,
29:54
Speaker 1: and they can because to me, potentially they're all geniuses.
29:58
Speaker 1: But it's unlocking the right and making sure that they
30:02
Speaker 1: are safe. Those things can be very overwhelming. Crime stories
30:18
Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace, guys, we were talking about the death
30:23
Speaker 1: of a six year old little girl. Her thirty says
30:26
Speaker 1: your old mother. We believe shot the little girl dead
30:31
Speaker 1: and then turned the gun on herself while dad had
30:33
Speaker 1: just left the home. There is no excuse, and I
30:37
Speaker 1: personally would prosecute this woman from murder. But that said,
30:44
Speaker 1: do you know doctor Jeff that a lot of these
30:47
Speaker 1: parents are shamed when they are overwhelmed raising their child
30:52
Speaker 1: or they need help, they don't know what to do.
30:55
Speaker 1: Daphne Young from Child Help. Have you heard of parent shaming?
31:02
Speaker 1: Their parents are having problems, pressure, is feeling overwhelmed trying
31:07
Speaker 1: to raise their children, especially children with special needs. Parent
31:11
Speaker 1: shaming has gotten worse than ever because of social media.
31:16
Speaker 1: So right now you can look at a world of
31:18
Speaker 1: perfect parents with every cupcake handmade, everyone's eating organic, and
31:23
Speaker 1: if you're running through them McDonald's drive through just trying
31:26
Speaker 1: to feed your family, and you're stressed and you're managing
31:29
Speaker 1: fifteen things at once. They're can be a deep sense
31:32
Speaker 1: of shame just for not living up to the highest bar,
31:35
Speaker 1: much less if you make a mistake, or if your
31:38
Speaker 1: child is hurting your care, or if you fail to
31:41
Speaker 1: pick them up on time at a daycare situation. So
31:45
Speaker 1: we see the gamut of parent shaming and it breaks
31:48
Speaker 1: our hearts because good parents can feel like they're failing
31:52
Speaker 1: at every turn. Because of this, they're shamed by the
31:55
Speaker 1: other parents, They're shamed by their relatives. So there's nobody
32:00
Speaker 1: them to talk to unless they get into a support group.
32:02
Speaker 1: They don't have anybody to talk to. They feel like
32:06
Speaker 1: there's something wrong with them. And again that is not
32:10
Speaker 1: legal insanity. I would totally prosecute this woman she weren't
32:13
Speaker 1: already dead for murder and the murder of her six
32:16
Speaker 1: year old child. But I'm also hearing what these parents
32:22
Speaker 1: go through. We had a friend, doctor Jeff and I
32:25
Speaker 1: think I've talked to you about this before, that adopted
32:29
Speaker 1: three boys from the same mom. They adopted one, then
32:32
Speaker 1: the mom had another boy that I think all in
32:34
Speaker 1: they got three. Two of them had autism. This mom
32:40
Speaker 1: practice single lawyer, very well respected up for judge ship.
32:45
Speaker 1: There was a point where the one older boy was
32:48
Speaker 1: totally out of control. She had to lock herself in
32:50
Speaker 1: a closet. The boy was now taller than her and
32:54
Speaker 1: she was afraid he was going to hit her with
32:55
Speaker 1: a baseball bat and just did not know what to do.
33:01
Speaker 1: And love the Sun devoted her whole life to helping
33:04
Speaker 1: the Sun. But sometimes they're at a point you don't
33:08
Speaker 1: know what to do with. Everybody shames you for that, Jeff,
33:11
Speaker 1: Yes they do. And all comes back to that concept
33:15
Speaker 1: in our society that children have to be perfect, that
33:19
Speaker 1: they have to be born a certain way, and if
33:22
Speaker 1: they have any kinds of issues at birth, that there's
33:26
Speaker 1: something wrong with them. No, everything is right with them,
33:30
Speaker 1: and we have to find how we can help them
33:32
Speaker 1: in achieving their potential. But yes, sometimes our kids get
33:37
Speaker 1: older and if we don't have the right supports for them,
33:40
Speaker 1: it can go in a direction that becomes really really
33:44
Speaker 1: difficult as they get older. And that's why it's so
33:47
Speaker 1: important that we stand behind all parents dealing with their
33:51
Speaker 1: special needs children and help them get what they need emotionally, intellectually,
33:58
Speaker 1: academically and also ring support for the parents. And again
34:01
Speaker 1: we are not excusing what happened here, but I'm focusing
34:05
Speaker 1: on what the mother told other people before she telled
34:08
Speaker 1: herself and her child, Daphne on from child to help
34:11
Speaker 1: with Stephanie. What would you have said to Shishmima Bardan.
34:16
Speaker 1: I think any parent in crisis needs to hear there's help.
34:21
Speaker 1: It's okay to be scared, it's okay to be overwhelmed,
34:25
Speaker 1: but your child needs love and care and safety. And
34:30
Speaker 1: if you don't feel like a safe person today, we're
34:32
Speaker 1: not going to shame you. We're going to give you
34:34
Speaker 1: help and somebody can step in and take care of that,
34:37
Speaker 1: and you can start to get some services. You need
34:40
Speaker 1: to get the assistance to make this a better situation,
34:43
Speaker 1: because at the end of the day, your child is
34:46
Speaker 1: a child of God and deserves that love and security
34:49
Speaker 1: and care, and there's a lot of people willing to
34:52
Speaker 1: help with that. Now. Earlier you heard from our friends
34:54
Speaker 1: at the Sun dot Com dealing the twenty five year
34:56
Speaker 1: old mom a three step mom to two others ri
35:00
Speaker 1: on a Myers. We also note that she made statements
35:04
Speaker 1: that the husband was always out of town. Was that
35:08
Speaker 1: a getback murder of five children because she was angry? Well,
35:15
Speaker 1: it happens very often. I want to tell you about
35:18
Speaker 1: the case of Marcia Edwards and in this case, this
35:23
Speaker 1: is in one of the most affluential, wealthy, privileged, gated
35:27
Speaker 1: community neighborhoods near the city of Atlanta. Take a listen
35:32
Speaker 1: to our friend Doug Richards at eleven Alive Well. Police
35:36
Speaker 1: say this is the case of a fifty eight year
35:38
Speaker 1: old woman who shot and killed her adult son and
35:41
Speaker 1: daughter inside her home apparently yesterday. The woman then shot
35:45
Speaker 1: and killed herself. It's a story breaking. Hearts from Cobb
35:48
Speaker 1: County to Atlanta City Hall. Marcia Edwards is the woman
35:52
Speaker 1: on the left, the mother of daughter Aaron and son Christopher.
35:56
Speaker 1: Police say the mother fired the shots that killed all
35:59
Speaker 1: three Wednesday night. We didn't hear anything. There's no sign
36:05
Speaker 1: of any you know, violence happening or Dalia Kartal lives
36:08
Speaker 1: next door to the Cobb Counted condo. Police visited Wednesday evening.
36:12
Speaker 1: Kartal is a neighbor who'd gotten to know and appreciate
36:15
Speaker 1: the family. Just a really nice family. Children Aaron and
36:20
Speaker 1: Chris had exceedingly promising futures. Just really bright, nice kind people.
36:25
Speaker 1: And these were adult children. The daughter was twenty the
36:28
Speaker 1: Son twenty four Take a List to Our Cut twenty
36:31
Speaker 1: six to eleven Alive Jennifer Bellamy. Marsha Edward's Facebook pages
36:34
Speaker 1: filled with images of her children, Chris and Aaron. She
36:37
Speaker 1: served several pictures celebrating her son Chris's birthday in June,
36:41
Speaker 1: calling him her best guy and her daughter Aaron her
36:43
Speaker 1: best girl, and within the last few days, she posted
36:46
Speaker 1: multiple times from a trip to Italy with her daughter,
36:49
Speaker 1: sharing dozens of photos and videos over several days, visiting
36:52
Speaker 1: famous sits, smiling, toasting, and posing for the camera. And
36:56
Speaker 1: in July, Marsha posted pictures from an Independence Day trip
36:59
Speaker 1: to Destined with her son Chris. Marsha also posted about
37:03
Speaker 1: Aaron's internships with the City of Atlanta and CNN. She
37:06
Speaker 1: shared articles Aaron rode while recently interning for NBC and
37:10
Speaker 1: traveled to New York to see her. Over the summer.
37:12
Speaker 1: Aaron's page shows she was studying at Boston University. She
37:15
Speaker 1: frequently tagged her mother in post, sharing pictures of them
37:18
Speaker 1: together and writing how proud she was of all her
37:21
Speaker 1: mom had accomplished. When she was honored in April as
37:24
Speaker 1: a small business owner and community leader by the Women
37:26
Speaker 1: works media group. That's one of Atlanta's one hundred most
37:29
Speaker 1: powerful and Influential women of twenty nineteen. Yet that mom,
37:34
Speaker 1: with all that going for her and how wonderfully her
37:39
Speaker 1: children had matured into real go getters, she shoots her
37:44
Speaker 1: adult children and herself. Take a listen to Atlanta's eleven
37:50
Speaker 1: Alive Faith abbity. Why would a mother who posted on
37:53
Speaker 1: social media I couldn't ask for better children kill her
37:56
Speaker 1: own children just days later? Or police are still working
37:59
Speaker 1: that ang goal of why? But tonight the Medical Examiner's
38:02
Speaker 1: reports reveal several new details about this case. It shows
38:06
Speaker 1: Marcia Edwards shot her twenty four year old son, Christopher
38:09
Speaker 1: at least five times in the Comp County townhouse back
38:12
Speaker 1: in August. Police found the twenty four year olds body
38:15
Speaker 1: in bed. Police then found Christopher's twenty year old sister, Aaron,
38:19
Speaker 1: in another room on another floor of that townhouse. Her
38:22
Speaker 1: mother had shot her three times and then shot herself
38:26
Speaker 1: once in the chest, right there next to her daughter.
38:28
Speaker 1: We know that in that case there had been a
38:30
Speaker 1: recent divorce. Was this some sort of a get back
38:34
Speaker 1: at the husband for starting a new life? And of
38:38
Speaker 1: course straight out to you, Steve Lampley. We know that,
38:42
Speaker 1: and stark contradiction to what was posted on Facebook and
38:46
Speaker 1: throughout social media about her, how much she loved her children,
38:49
Speaker 1: how great they were, all they were accomplishing. She murdered them.
38:53
Speaker 1: So you can't believe social media posts. No, you can't,
38:57
Speaker 1: ask usian. You can read anything on social media, and
39:00
Speaker 1: people make up stories. People intentionally make up stories. Excuse me,
39:06
Speaker 1: elaborate greatly beyond what it is. You can't. You can't
39:10
Speaker 1: take what you see on social media unless you verify
39:13
Speaker 1: its yourself. And to you, James Shell, not twenty seven
39:17
Speaker 1: years much. You a major case now, lawyer. I've seen
39:19
Speaker 1: a lot of cases for husbands or boyfriends lovers kill
39:23
Speaker 1: a child and get back to the mother, but very
39:28
Speaker 1: rarely have I seen a reverse get back murder where
39:34
Speaker 1: the mom kills the children and then herself. In this
39:37
Speaker 1: particular case, though, James, I don't see this as a
39:41
Speaker 1: getback murder. I think the mother truly was overwhelmed and
39:48
Speaker 1: felt there was no one to talk to, or whoever
39:50
Speaker 1: she did talk to wouldn't listen. Oh, absolutely, you know,
39:53
Speaker 1: I mean you think about this, This let her entire
39:57
Speaker 1: life dealing with this. You know she as and I'm not.
40:00
Speaker 1: I'm not taking up for what she's done. I think
40:02
Speaker 1: you have known had a mind to go in the
40:04
Speaker 1: same way as you, and I'm not excusing it. But
40:06
Speaker 1: she spent her entire life doing with this. This lady
40:09
Speaker 1: has probably you know, upset herself to decide of the
40:13
Speaker 1: little girl was only six. Well, I know, but but
40:17
Speaker 1: this is this has gone on for a while, and
40:20
Speaker 1: so I mean, she has dealt with us for six years.
40:23
Speaker 1: It is overwhelming as a parent. I think our doctor
40:25
Speaker 1: said a men ago, you know, one of the things
40:27
Speaker 1: that we miss in society is being able to have
40:29
Speaker 1: parents with coping skills. And I think that sometimes you
40:33
Speaker 1: fail to get the mental health treatment that you need,
40:37
Speaker 1: you fail to take care of your own needs, and
40:40
Speaker 1: that just builds up. And I think sometimes it can
40:42
Speaker 1: overtake a person before they realize it's overtaken them, and
40:46
Speaker 1: it results sometimes in deadly situations like this. If you
40:50
Speaker 1: know of a case where you suspect tensions mounting and
40:54
Speaker 1: should them in the home, please called child help. Daphne.
41:00
Speaker 1: What is your advice to friends and relatives who may
41:05
Speaker 1: notice a parent overwhelmed with raising their children, Whether we
41:10
Speaker 1: agree with it or not it exists in their mind,
41:15
Speaker 1: and for the sake of the child, the parent needs help.
41:19
Speaker 1: You want to look for signs and symptoms of stress,
41:22
Speaker 1: of shutting down, of not returning calls, and you want
41:26
Speaker 1: to be that gentle, non shaming voice in their life
41:29
Speaker 1: that just calls up and says, hey, I imagine you're
41:32
Speaker 1: pretty stressed right now, like we all are. Is there
41:35
Speaker 1: something I can do to take a little stress away?
41:37
Speaker 1: Can I run a few errands for you? Can I
41:40
Speaker 1: cook dinner and leave it on your doorstep, if you
41:43
Speaker 1: can take a little of that pressure off, or just
41:45
Speaker 1: be a listening ear, Hey, tell me what's going on today.
41:48
Speaker 1: Let's just go sit on our back porches for a
41:50
Speaker 1: second and talk. You can change a life. And we
41:54
Speaker 1: have the Child Help National Child Abuse Hotline one eight
41:58
Speaker 1: hundred four to two four four five three, and you
42:02
Speaker 1: can just share that number and say, hey, call child
42:04
Speaker 1: Help or text or chat with them, share your feelings.
42:07
Speaker 1: You don't have to be in crisis. You may just
42:09
Speaker 1: need self soothing tips or a little parenting help or
42:13
Speaker 1: local resources. Hey, my child has autism. I need to
42:17
Speaker 1: know where there's a resource group. I'm shutting down and
42:19
Speaker 1: I need some immediate help, whether it's a nurse or
42:22
Speaker 1: somebody that can step in and just make that call
42:25
Speaker 1: and see what's available. National Child Abuse Hotline eight hundred
42:30
Speaker 1: four A Child eight hundred four four five three Nancy
42:38
Speaker 1: Grace Crime Story signing off, Goodbye friend,