Latest / Overwhelmed Working Woman: Boost Productivity, Master Time Management, Overcome Overwhelm & Stop People Pleasing / #127| Why Time Management Won’t Make You a Better Leader—Focus On This Instead for More Productivity

Transcript

#127| Why Time Management Won’t Make You a Better Leader—Focus On This Instead for More Productivity · Overwhelmed Working Woman: Boost Productivity, Master Time Management, Overcome Overwhelm & Stop People Pleasing

• 0:00
  Katie Calagui: when we interact with others, it's not just our brain that gets activated, it's our emotions that get activated.
• 0:09
  Michelle Gauthier: You're listening to Overwhelmed Working Woman, the podcast that helps you be more calm and more productive by doing less.
• 0:16
  Michelle Gauthier: I'm your host, Michelle Gauthier, a former Overwhelmed Working Woman and current life coach.
• 0:21
  Michelle Gauthier: On this show, we unpack the stress and pressure that today's working woman experiences, and in each episode you'll get a strategy to bring more calm, ease and relaxation to your life.
• 0:33
  Michelle Gauthier: Hi, friend, thanks for joining today.
• 0:39
  Michelle Gauthier: If you're looking for a better way to handle stress in the workplace, or you're struggling with interpersonal challenges at home or at work, or just feeling overwhelmed in your leadership role, today's episode is for you.
• 0:51
  Michelle Gauthier: My guest, Katie Calagui, is a leadership coach with a background as chief people officer, and when you listen to the episode today, you'll discover why mindfulness is the key to being a strong leader, not only at work, but also in the rest of your life.
• 1:05
  Michelle Gauthier: She also gives us great tips on how to handle workplace conflict in a way that actually improves relationships and productivity instead of making things worse.
• 1:14
  Michelle Gauthier: And then, finally, she shares the power of managing your energy, not just your time, so that you can stay present and engaged at work and at home.
• 1:24
  Michelle Gauthier: A lot of times, we use all of our energy at work and have nothing left for home.
• 1:27
  Michelle Gauthier: She's got a great ability to make these concepts really practical and actionable, so I'm confident you'll walk away feeling good with some good strategies you can use immediately.
• 1:37
  Michelle Gauthier: Let's dive in.
• 1:38
  Michelle Gauthier: Hi, katie, thank you so much for joining us today.
• 1:42
  Michelle Gauthier: Hi, michelle, so great to be here.
• 1:44
  Michelle Gauthier: Yes, I'm so glad to have you.
• 1:49
  Michelle Gauthier: I think this is going to be a great podcast for our listeners, because we do have so many people in leadership who are listening.
• 1:53
  Michelle Gauthier: And the reason why I invited Katie to be on today is because she's a leadership coach.
• 1:58
  Michelle Gauthier: She has previously been chief people officer and had all kinds of experience in helping leaders grow, and I love that.
• 2:07
  Michelle Gauthier: Her spin on it is a lot of mindfulness and the way that you think of mindfulness as the first step to being a good leader.
• 2:14
  Michelle Gauthier: So I wanted to have you on today because I think you can help our overwhelmed working women feel less overwhelmed and less stressed, even if they have a job that might take a lot out of them.
• 2:25
  Michelle Gauthier: So do you want to tell us a little bit about how you got into mindfulness?
• 2:31
  Michelle Gauthier: Because you started off in financial services, which isn't necessarily thought of as a mindful career.
• 2:37
  Michelle Gauthier: So do you want to just tell us a little bit about how you got into it and then what you teach your clients and then what you teach your clients.
• 2:48
  Katie Calagui: Yeah for sure.
• 2:48
  Katie Calagui: Yeah.
• 2:48
  Katie Calagui: So I started working with my first coach 15 years ago.
• 2:50
  Katie Calagui: So I was working for a family business, my father's firm.
• 2:52
  Katie Calagui: I was asked to step into a leadership role.
• 2:55
  Katie Calagui: It's a pretty big jump, given where I was in my career.
• 2:58
  Katie Calagui: They had actually never had kind of a professional leader of the firm yet.
• 3:01
  Katie Calagui: It was a very entrepreneurial firm at that point.
• 3:03
  Katie Calagui: And so I first thing I said is I need a coach to kind of help me navigate this.
• 3:08
  Katie Calagui: And so my first coach I ever had she was trained.
• 3:12
  Katie Calagui: I mean, she had a very long corporate life but had done a lot of training in mindfulness and that was kind of the foundation of a lot of the work that we did and the tools around mindfulness that she taught me.
• 3:24
  Katie Calagui: I think what stood out and why I was kind of an instant believer and have incorporated that into all of my leadership going forward, is that, you know, the impact was so immediate and it was so large, like these very small shifts that mindfulness can provide us just made a huge impact into how I navigated whatever challenge was facing me.
• 3:44
  Katie Calagui: So that's where I got introduced to it and, like I said, as a result.
• 3:49
  Katie Calagui: I just really see it as this foundational piece to leadership, because we think about the challenges that come up in leadership.
• 3:56
  Katie Calagui: It's not so much the practical problems we have to solve Like we're all smart, intelligent people, like our brains can figure out the business side of stuff what's challenging and overwhelming are the interpersonal interactions, and that's because we're all individual beings with our own stories and histories and personalities, and when we interact with others, it's not just our brain that gets activated, it's our emotions that get activated, and so if we don't have a way to work with our emotion, our interactions at work become more challenging.
• 4:29
  Katie Calagui: And so that's really what kind of led me down this path of like okay, how do I use these mindfulness tools in leadership?
• 4:37
  Michelle Gauthier: Okay, I love that.
• 4:38
  Michelle Gauthier: So I just want to highlight something that you just said, because that felt like a real light bulb to me.
• 4:43
  Michelle Gauthier: So, if we think about all the things that we have to do in a job, what I hear you saying is the actual part of the job.
• 4:50
  Michelle Gauthier: The function of the job is the easier part than interacting with all the people, and, at least in all of my corporate roles, interacting with people was like 90% of my job.
• 5:02
  Michelle Gauthier: It's very rare that we have a job these days where you're just like sitting in an office doing your exact thing.
• 5:07
  Michelle Gauthier: Even if you have a job like being an accountant, you still have to, you know, communicate with everybody else around you.
• 5:13
  Michelle Gauthier: So I love that you can help people feel better in that area.
• 5:17
  Michelle Gauthier: Do you have specific tips?
• 5:22
  Katie Calagui: Yeah, well, I think one of the first things that my coach taught me that was one of those kind of quick, high impact things was, you know, when I would get into discussions and we were problem solving and emotions were getting activated.
• 5:35
  Katie Calagui: You know, not only was I working in a leadership team, but with family, so emotions were even more heightened.
• 5:42
  Katie Calagui: You know, if I felt defensive in a meeting or I felt angry or frustrated, I would kind of go home and, you know, being a very self-improvement driven person, I would try to figure out, like how do I not get frustrated?
• 5:55
  Katie Calagui: Like what is wrong with me for getting frustrated?
• 5:57
  Katie Calagui: I need to, like, not get emotional.
• 5:59
  Katie Calagui: And I was doing all this work, trying to figure out how to not be emotional, and my coach explained to me that, like you can't not feel emotion, like we don't have that ability, it's an innate thing that happens, and so trying to figure out how to make it not happen or how to talk myself out of it or, even worse, criticize myself for having the emotion, was really counterproductive.
• 6:21
  Katie Calagui: So what I needed to do instead was I needed to start developing a language to identify the emotion I was having and learning how to tolerate it, understand it and move through it, because actually the better that you can tolerate it and work through it, the faster you can move on from it.
• 6:39
  Katie Calagui: It's actually kind of counterintuitive that that was what I needed to learn, as opposed to trying to figure out how to not be emotional, because that wasn't going to happen.
• 6:49
  Michelle Gauthier: Yes, oh my gosh, that's so good.
• 6:51
  Michelle Gauthier: I too.
• 6:51
  Michelle Gauthier: If there would have been like a box you could check and be like, feel no emotions between the hours of eight and six, I would have been like I'm in.
• 6:58
  Michelle Gauthier: That sounds good.
• 6:59
  Michelle Gauthier: And I also think, especially I don't know if you experienced this, but especially as a woman, I was like I can never cry at work.
• 7:06
  Michelle Gauthier: I will be seen in such a bad light if I ever cry, I have to be nice.
• 7:11
  Michelle Gauthier: I can't ever get mad.
• 7:13
  Michelle Gauthier: I had all these kind of rules for myself, so I love that.
• 7:17
  Michelle Gauthier: So, when you're teaching this stuff, because I know you work with women, you work with men too, right?
• 7:22
  Michelle Gauthier: Oh yeah.
• 7:25
  Katie Calagui: Actually, I've probably worked with more men in the space that I'm in, I mean I'm in financial services.
• 7:29
  Katie Calagui: So I've definitely worked with both, for sure.
• 7:32
  Michelle Gauthier: Yeah, and do you see, is there a difference between the amount of emotion that people are willing to feel or like?
• 7:39
  Michelle Gauthier: Does anyone take to this lesson better than others?
• 7:42
  Michelle Gauthier: Or do you see that once people learn how to just quickly be like, ok, I'm angry and I'm going to name it and feel it and allow that, does it seem to work for anybody?
• 7:51
  Katie Calagui: Well, it's funny you bring up the being a woman part, because I feel like we kind of get labeled emotional.
• 7:58
  Katie Calagui: But I'll never forget being in I think at the time it was a cab, not an Uber with one of my male bosses was very frustrated with another woman on the team and he was very angry and he was saying how she's just so emotional and she can't get her emotions under control.
• 8:14
  Katie Calagui: And I'm just sitting there thinking, like you know, anger is an emotion and like he and that mom, that was being very emotional.
• 8:21
  Michelle Gauthier: Yes, yes, how ironic.
• 8:23
  Michelle Gauthier: But like it seems that there are emotions that are acceptable by gender, like women, we're not supposed to get mad or we get labeled as you know, bitches.
• 8:32
  Michelle Gauthier: If men are mad there it's fine, you know, and maybe we're allowed to cry and they're not allowed, or whatever it is.
• 8:39
  Michelle Gauthier: So that's funny, though that's a great thing to point out.
• 8:42
  Katie Calagui: Oh, my goodness.
• 8:43
  Michelle Gauthier: Well, well, I want to hear about, like, how you help your clients with this, but I also, as a coach myself, I totally believe that in order for me to teach anybody anything, I have to embody it as well.
• 8:57
  Michelle Gauthier: So before you tell me how you help your clients, tell me how you help yourself.
• 9:00
  Michelle Gauthier: How do you use this in your daily life?
• 9:04
  Katie Calagui: Yeah.
• 9:04
  Katie Calagui: So I always, you know, kind of think of it as mindfulness is like my main toolbox right, Like we, just as we go through life.
• 9:11
  Katie Calagui: We kind of our job is to assemble a toolbox to navigate challenges, because the challenge is always going to be there.
• 9:16
  Katie Calagui: We're always going to, you know, slip into our usual reactions.
• 9:20
  Katie Calagui: It's just how quickly can we get into our toolbox toolbox.
• 9:27
  Katie Calagui: And so for me it's like, as I'm moving through my weeks and my months, I feel like there's kind of three levels.
• 9:30
  Katie Calagui: I'm either frustrated, dealing with a conflict, or I have an issue.
• 9:31
  Katie Calagui: If that's compounding, then I'm in overwhelm, and if that's getting really bad, I find myself in anxiety, and mindfulness can help me at any of those stages.
• 9:40
  Katie Calagui: The sooner I catch it the better.
• 9:42
  Katie Calagui: But you know, the first tool being like just checking in with what I'm experiencing and being present with that and tolerating it, like I said.
• 9:50
  Katie Calagui: And sometimes the body has to tell us before the mind can.
• 9:53
  Katie Calagui: So you know, if I'm feeling uneasy and worked up, I might not know what the emotion is yet.
• 9:59
  Katie Calagui: So it's like, okay, is my chest tight?
• 10:01
  Katie Calagui: Is my belly hurting?
• 10:03
  Katie Calagui: Like, am I breathing heavy?
• 10:04
  Katie Calagui: Like sometimes our body will clue us in first.
• 10:06
  Katie Calagui: So if I can't really get the words to what I'm experiencing, I first try to get some clues from what my body is telling me and that just starts to slow down, kind of that flight or fight reaction, and then I kind of think about OK, what am I experiencing?
• 10:20
  Katie Calagui: If I can label the emotion and I can kind of allow it, then I can start to work with it and figure out, okay, where do I want to go from here?
• 10:27
  Katie Calagui: What can I do?
• 10:28
  Katie Calagui: That's within my control.
• 10:29
  Katie Calagui: You know, one of the cores of mindfulness is being present, and so we know that if we're worrying about the future or we're mulling over something in the past, we're departing from the present and that's going to create more overwhelm and anxiety.
• 10:43
  Katie Calagui: So can I bring myself back to this moment Like what's actually happening now?
• 10:46
  Katie Calagui: Am I okay in this moment?
• 10:48
  Katie Calagui: Are?
• 10:48
  Katie Calagui: Can I bring myself back to this moment Like what's actually happening now?
• 10:49
  Katie Calagui: Am I okay in this moment?
• 10:50
  Katie Calagui: Are these things I'm thinking have they actually happened or am I just worried that they're going to happen?
• 10:52
  Katie Calagui: So it's just kind of bringing me back to sort of the wiser parts of myself, as opposed to the kind of primitive, reactive, self-protective parts of myself.
• 11:02
  Michelle Gauthier: Yes, yes, so it sounds like and it's very similar to what you said about at the beginning too, just about emotions being part of everyday life.
• 11:10
  Michelle Gauthier: So I love that.
• 11:15
  Michelle Gauthier: You just know, no matter how advanced you get in mindfulness and I will say me too to this that stuff still comes up, you still get upset, you still get frustrated, you still get overwhelmed.
• 11:21
  Michelle Gauthier: But just noticing it and asking yourself questions and slowing down really seems to work for you and, I'm sure, for all of your clients.
• 11:29
  Michelle Gauthier: So how do you help your clients Like, do you work with a big group?
• 11:34
  Michelle Gauthier: Do you work with people one-on-one?
• 11:35
  Michelle Gauthier: And then my follow-on question to that is what's the impact?
• 11:40
  Michelle Gauthier: I'm thinking of you going into an organization where they haven't learned anything about mindfulness and then suddenly all the leaders are trained and able to be much more mindful about things.
• 11:51
  Michelle Gauthier: What's the impact on the business when you do something like that?
• 11:55
  Katie Calagui: Yeah, well, you know, I think like one of the biggest values of the work that I do and other coaches and consultants is I'm always striving to improve quality of life.
• 12:04
  Katie Calagui: So it's like you know, yes, there's things we're going to do that make the business better, certainly, but I want people to experience their work life in a better way, and so I think the biggest part of that that I help teams with is how to navigate conflict well, and so I do that one-on-one.
• 12:21
  Katie Calagui: So most of my executive teams that I coach, I coach the whole team as a group.
• 12:25
  Katie Calagui: So I'll facilitate meetings and we'll work together as a group, and then I'll often coach them one-on-one individually, and so we'll do some work one-on-one and then we'll do some work as a group.
• 12:34
  Katie Calagui: One of the things I do with groups generally, like a kickoff retreat or one of our off sites or even in a regular meeting, is I print out a page with words of emotions on it, because, interestingly enough, we don't actually know how to label a lot of emotions and we kind of mislabel things in a lot of ways, like, instead of saying I feel hurt, we're used to saying that person was a jerk.
• 12:58
  Katie Calagui: You know, it's always very external, so just giving language so that people in the moment can start learning how to say hey, I feel confused right now, or I'm feeling stuck, or I'm feeling hurt.
• 13:09
  Katie Calagui: If something is really escalated, I try to help us.
• 13:11
  Katie Calagui: You know, work through like how do we communicate what we're experiencing versus going on the attack or getting defensive, which is what typically happens when we're finding ourself in conflict.
• 13:21
  Katie Calagui: And you know, good process, also with a group, helps as well.
• 13:26
  Katie Calagui: So if we have a good structure for what we're doing, we have good, clear objectives, that kind of also helps them or the conflict.
• 13:34
  Katie Calagui: And then one I really debriefing with individuals on.
• 13:38
  Katie Calagui: You know what happened, what was your experience, and let's talk through that.
• 13:41
  Katie Calagui: And so you know we'll kind of generally start from a very self-protective place and we'll start weaving these stories around.
• 13:49
  Katie Calagui: You know that person was mean to me or out of line and this is not going to work and I just give up.
• 13:54
  Katie Calagui: And you know, our kind of self-protective narratives start getting very, very loud and you know it's kind of our ego talking a little bit.
• 14:01
  Katie Calagui: And so if I can help one-on-one with clients kind of refocus on well, what do we know for sure?
• 14:08
  Katie Calagui: What are the facts of what happened?
• 14:09
  Katie Calagui: What were you experiencing?
• 14:11
  Katie Calagui: Did you feel hurt?
• 14:13
  Katie Calagui: Did you feel scared?
• 14:14
  Katie Calagui: Did you feel what was going on with you?
• 14:18
  Katie Calagui: So someone might start with like, well, I'm angry because Joe is a jerk and if we let that story play out, we go down a path of how he's wrong and I'm right and I can't work with him and all that, and then we actually start to abandon ourselves and we're operating from a place of survival versus wisdom.
• 14:33
  Katie Calagui: So instead, if we can say, hey, I was hurt because I felt attacked in that meeting and now I'm feeling really insecure about my idea and you know, maybe I got something wrong.
• 14:44
  Katie Calagui: And so if we can really get to the heart of what's going on with you, then we can talk about okay, how do you want to respond in a way that feels authentic to you.
• 14:53
  Katie Calagui: Maybe it's I need to go back to Joe and set some boundaries, like, hey, joe, it's okay to not like my idea, but it's not okay to raise your voice at me.
• 15:00
  Katie Calagui: Or maybe I need to find out what's going on with Joe, because that was really unusual and he doesn't usually act that way.
• 15:05
  Katie Calagui: So is there something going on with him that I don't know about?
• 15:08
  Katie Calagui: But, like, our defensive behaviors are not going to lead us to places that are true to ourself, and so if we can get back to you know, kind of moving back into that rational side of how we want to handle things, then we can act in ways that are more aligned with our wisest self.
• 15:25
  Michelle Gauthier: I love that.
• 15:25
  Michelle Gauthier: I love it so much.
• 15:26
  Michelle Gauthier: And if I think about the repercussions of that, let's say you teach someone that skill at work and they've just reduced by a huge amount the number of hours that it's going to take to solve that problem because they can just talk to the person instead of being mad and defensive and them arguing.
• 15:42
  Michelle Gauthier: And then I'm picturing that person going home and being able to use those same skills with their wife or husband or partner, kids or anything.
• 15:52
  Michelle Gauthier: I mean just it feels like once you teach them that as a leadership skill, they can just take that everywhere in life with them.
• 15:59
  Michelle Gauthier: I love that.
• 16:00
  Michelle Gauthier: Yeah, 100%.
• 16:02
  Michelle Gauthier: Okay, that's awesome.
• 16:03
  Michelle Gauthier: So I feel like you've given us already a lot of great tips.
• 16:07
  Michelle Gauthier: But if there's one thing that you would want to tell someone who's like I don't do anything mindfulness wise ever, what's the number one thing that you would say to them?
• 16:19
  Katie Calagui: to just get started, Well, the easiest thing is always to breathe I think we've all heard about this and it doesn't have to be like a isolated meditation, breathing on a cushion, like just doing four counts in holding it, four counts out slow that kind of reactive, protective, self-defensive reactions, right.
• 16:48
  Katie Calagui: So if we can just slow down a little bit, and then the second thing would just be to like check in with your body, like if that's all you can do in the moment is just kind of start to notice your body Cause again, that gets you out of like your head spinning and more grounded and it just kind of slows that reaction.
• 17:05
  Katie Calagui: So, just learning to take a couple of breaths, you can do that anywhere you know.
• 17:09
  Katie Calagui: If we have time to pick up our phone and scroll for two minutes, we can stop and just breathe for two minutes and that can really start to kind of build those neuropathways that help us identify what's going on in our experience faster.
• 17:23
  Michelle Gauthier: So that's easy to start.
• 17:25
  Michelle Gauthier: I love that because you can do it without anybody else knowing.
• 17:29
  Michelle Gauthier: You know you can count your breaths while you're sitting in a meeting if you need to, and you can check with your body and see.
• 17:36
  Michelle Gauthier: You know where do I feel uncomfortable while you're with other people or not.
• 17:40
  Michelle Gauthier: That's great.
• 17:40
  Michelle Gauthier: I love it.
• 17:41
  Michelle Gauthier: Okay, awesome, all right, thank you.
• 17:44
  Michelle Gauthier: Those have been all great tips.
• 17:46
  Michelle Gauthier: So now I'm going to ask you the two questions that I ask everybody who comes on the show.
• 17:50
  Michelle Gauthier: So the first one is what's one thing that you can do to instantly feel more calm?
• 17:56
  Michelle Gauthier: Is it the square breathing?
• 17:57
  Michelle Gauthier: Did you just give us that answer?
• 18:00
  Katie Calagui: No, I wish I was.
• 18:01
  Katie Calagui: Yes, I should do that.
• 18:03
  Katie Calagui: But I think what I have found is I just have to let go, like I noticed this relationship of the more overwhelmed I feel, the more controlling I get, the more I start to control things.
• 18:14
  Katie Calagui: So if I can just let go and kind of let things be and sort of watch the outcome happen without trying to control it, that instantly can bring my overwhelm down.
• 18:26
  Michelle Gauthier: That's so good.
• 18:27
  Michelle Gauthier: I think you're the one who taught me this.
• 18:28
  Michelle Gauthier: That said, when women start to feel stressed, they go towards control and men go towards what is anger.
• 18:35
  Michelle Gauthier: That's what I thought.
• 18:36
  Michelle Gauthier: I didn't want to throw them under the bus, but that's it Okay.
• 18:40
  Michelle Gauthier: That resonates for me big time, like when I start to feel stressed and out of control, I just want to control things that aren't in my control.
• 18:48
  Michelle Gauthier: So I love that.
• 18:49
  Michelle Gauthier: Okay.
• 18:50
  Michelle Gauthier: So the answer is let go.
• 18:51
  Michelle Gauthier: And then what's something that you consistently do in your life that enables you to do less?
• 18:58
  Katie Calagui: Well, I've become very fierce about managing my energy.
• 19:01
  Katie Calagui: Now there's always like manage your time, it's like whatever the day is going to be what it is, but I got really I don't know.
• 19:08
  Katie Calagui: Part of being a working mom was like I had to manage my energy and so it was like how much time am I going to give or energy am I going to give to this problem, for example?
• 19:18
  Katie Calagui: Or you know this drama that happened Am I going to lose myself in this for 20 minutes and ruminate, or am I going to preserve my energy so I can walk in the door and feel more peaceful after work and enjoy my kids?
• 19:29
  Katie Calagui: I think just being very mindful of my energy and very, very protective of it.
• 19:35
  Michelle Gauthier: I love that.
• 19:35
  Michelle Gauthier: That's such a great answer.
• 19:36
  Michelle Gauthier: And just so you listeners know, katie is managing, she's got her own business and then she also has a high schooler, a middle schooler and a baby and they're all boys.
• 19:52
  Michelle Gauthier: when you're saying energy management to like be home with your husband and your three boys, I think it's like extra, because usually you've got the little kids and you know what that energy is, but then that can end at like eight o'clock because they go to bed and then high school energy is a different one, but you've got them all.
• 20:09
  Michelle Gauthier: So I think you managing your energy is a brilliant idea and something that everybody could learn how to do.
• 20:16
  Katie Calagui: Yeah, yeah, I need the energy to like chase the toddler, and then I need the energy to have a very intellectual conversation with my 16 year old, who have those at 1030.
• 20:26
  Michelle Gauthier: So, yes, oh my gosh.
• 20:28
  Michelle Gauthier: I saw some meme the other day that said, like the okay, when they're babies, they wake you up in the middle of the night because they're crying, and when they're teenagers, they wake you up because they want to talk to you at a time where they feel energized, which is like 11.
• 20:41
  Michelle Gauthier: And I'm always like, okay, sure, yes, just let me sit up and pull myself together.
• 20:47
  Michelle Gauthier: Yeah, yeah, it's tough being a mom, especially on both ends of the spectrum.
• 20:53
  Michelle Gauthier: Good for you, good for you.
• 20:54
  Michelle Gauthier: So, based on what you've taught us today, it sounds like you work with a lot of leaders, but can you just tell us who you work with, in case people are interested in hiring you, and then how they can find you?
• 21:07
  Katie Calagui: Yeah, so easiest way to find me is probably my website, which I know you'll drop in the notes because a long name to spell.
• 21:14
  Katie Calagui: And then who I work with you know I work, so I do one-on-one executive coaching with leaders or emerging leaders, and then also with small businesses and their leadership teams.
• 21:23
  Katie Calagui: So any business that's wanting to grow, they're hiring more employees and they're looking to professionalize as a team, work better together and then create a great experience for their employees.
• 21:34
  Katie Calagui: That's who I generally support.
• 21:36
  Michelle Gauthier: Amazing, okay, perfect, thank you.
• 21:38
  Michelle Gauthier: Will you just spell your name for us, in case somebody is only listening and they want to go to your website right now.
• 21:45
  Katie Calagui: Yeah, so it's Katie K-A-T-I-E, and then Kalagi is C-A-L-A-G-U-I, and so it's just katiekalagiconsultingcom.
• 21:54
  Katie Calagui: There you go.
• 21:56
  Michelle Gauthier: Thank you very much.
• 21:57
  Michelle Gauthier: Thank you for listening to the Overwhelmed Working Woman podcast.
• 22:05
  Michelle Gauthier: If you want to learn more about my work, head over to my website at michellegothiercom.
• 22:11
  Michelle Gauthier: See you next week.