Latest / Art of the Question / How Men's Groups Cure Loneliness - Kian Nemzer - #36

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How Men's Groups Cure Loneliness - Kian Nemzer - #36 · Art of the Question

• Julius Moorman: I think a good starting point is to kind of understand what made you want to study ⁓ loneliness in men. Yeah, well, I guess the easiest way to explain or frame that is that I am a man and I've experienced loneliness. And so in my in my degree, I mean the reason I studied it is because in my degree of global studies, I was basically prompted with or tasked with. ⁓ pick a global issue, anything you could possibly want to research, and then you're gonna study that for the next like for your whole degree, basically culminating in a thesis. And so I wanted to pick something relevant to me. And this was something that is relevant and true to me throughout my whole life. Not that I've had a very lonely life, but that the idea of loneliness and then I would say the opposite of that with human connection or authentic connection. It's something that fascinates me. And I see the difference between somebody who is disconnected and somebody who is connected or in my own life in different times and like the incredible like the butterfly effect of the compounding impacts of somebody who's disconnected and what that does for them, somebody that is connected and like the transformation, even over a short period of time of finding real connections. So it was something that, you know, goes beyond just men, of course, ⁓ but was like, okay, what can I research that is relevant to me and that I have fun learning about? ⁓ so that's kind of the the shortened version of that. Yeah, makes sense. And when you say that you experienced loneliness in your life, even though you haven't lived a lonely life by any means, ⁓ can you maybe elaborate a little more what that loneliness ⁓ looked like or where where you encountered it? Yeah. I would say the The first thing that comes to mind is just ⁓ school. So that would be middle school, high school. And I don't know, I had plenty of experiences in in school where a friend would just decide they didn't want to be friends anymore. And it's kind of this heartbreaking thing where you don't know like what you did or what what even happened, and you just start to feel isolated. And like I'm so grateful that I've had a family that I've always felt close to and always felt like I could speak to. I mean both of my parents are therapists and so, you know, in that sense, like I've always had somebody to talk to. But it was I would say really it was freshman year of high school where I don't know, I got I got hit the hardest with this feeling of isolation and disconnection. And where, you know, the people my friend group kind of just turned on me. The it was basically it was these girls. I was I was friends with a with a group of girls and all of a sudden they just Flipped from being my friends to starting to harass me. And so it was like a mix of being bullied and then, which is weird to say, like, you know, being a high schooler, being bullied by some girls, but I don't know. That was that was the truth of my experience. And ⁓ and so I just started to feel really isolated and like there was nobody that like I didn't have close friends in that circle that understood me. And then there's also The friends like I've had I had the same group of friends growing up. I grew up on a cul-de-sac and ⁓ so there was, you know, boys my age all around the street. We were close. However, as a guy, you generally, at least in the the culture that I grew up in, it's weird to talk about your emotions. And so when something like like that, you know, experience of bullying and you know, kind of being ⁓ shunned from a group was happening, there was no one to really talk to about it. And so I just ended up like, okay, I'm a human. I have these experiences. I have these emotions, but I don't really have anyone to talk to it about. ⁓ to I don't have anyone to talk about to. And ⁓ it, you know, it just kinda leads to like at least in my experience, unless I'm able to talk about something, it just kind of stays there in my mind. ⁓ and yeah, so so it was really those kind of experiences that led to feelings of loneliness, disconnection, and it wasn't ⁓ yeah, I didn't really know what to do with that at the time. Right. And I think it's interesting what you mentioned there about not being able to talk to people, even though you might have been surrounded by many people. So from the outside you might have not looked very lonely to someone. At least that's how I recognize it in myself is that I made a career change. Like you know, like I I I went to law school and then I worked as a tax lawyer for a couple couple of years. And then I decided to quit my job. And I also decided to get healthier. So I quit drinking for a while. And I wanted to escape the corporate life. Right. So I was going through a phase where I switched careers, went on to do something completely different with my life while Also starting to live healthier, meaning less drinking, less partying, no drugs anymore, just going to the gym, eating clean, and and trying to feel better, trying to be better. And for the longest time, that was such it still sometimes is very lonely, even though I still have so many friends. I still have all these friends, but I was the only one from my friends that was making a change and decided to go on this journey. And the thing about starting such a journey is by maybe you have a partner, maybe you have a brother, or maybe you do have someone to do it together and at the same time. But I didn't have someone to do this with. working a job that I actually enjoyed for the first time in my life, I still felt very lonely because I couldn't really share all these new experiences with me. And when I wanted to to say like, hey, do you know this new sick calisthenics spot? Like nobody it was interested in that and and everyone around me was just interested in when when the next party was, you know? So That can be kind of depressing and it and it sometimes still is. Going to Bali and going to the creator house was very helpful in that regard because for people that don't know, the creator house was an environment where people that were either entrepreneurs, content creators, writers, usually building something creative, could live together, get together and and share their work, collaborate. And That was like for the first time ever, I was in a room again with people that were all doing similar things and it was so inspiring to me. And I was like, okay, this is what it should feel like. And it reminded me from back in the day when I used to ride BMX bikes and I was going to the skate park every day. Like I'm doing something together with a group of people that all enjoy the same thing and have similar goals within this thing that we enjoy. But then when I go back home from Bali, I still feel kinda lonely sometimes because most of my friends that have these interests are international friends. So yeah, I wouldn't say I'm back to square one. Like the longer I'm doing it, the more people I surround myself with with these similar interests also when I am home. But yeah, it's it's a topic I I did a an episode about loneliness prior to this one. It is something that ⁓ is very relevant to me and I think might be surprising to a lot of people if you just generally look at the amount of friends I have, that you can still experience loneliness even though you have a ton of friends, if if that makes sense. ⁓ is that is that something ⁓ yeah if we're talking about a definition, is that something you agree on? Like you you can still be lonely even though you have ⁓ many contexts? Yeah, I think that's definitely. I mean, that's that's inherent in loneliness is well, the definition that I've been using throughout my research is that loneliness is defined as the discrepancy between one's achieved and desired level of social connection, which is different for everybody. And it's about more so about the quality of the social connection that you have, because everybody, unless you're entirely isolated and don't see anybody, you have some level of connection. But there's like you know, in different friendships you have different depth of connection. You have friends who you feel like understand you better, you have friends who you feel like don't, some that are like very surface level. Maybe you have many friends that are on the surface level, or maybe you have two friends that you're very close to. But it all depends on like I guess who you are, what your desire is for connection. And that can change on a day to day basis too. So it's a very ⁓ I guess kind of ambiguous thing. ⁓ I do wanna say also what you pointed out ⁓ is very interesting as far as the contradiction of like, okay, I'm gonna ch make these actions to be healthier, but in a way then you're indirectly like isolating yourself from the the like current state of the social sphere where it's like, okay, I wanna party, I wanna get messed up and do do whatever and like have these less authentic, less meaningful interactions if you really are, you know, if you really break it down. And that's something I experienced too. I mean, I haven't had a a sip of alcohol in I think four years now. And that was like the hardest part of it. It's like, okay, well, damn, I don't want to go out with these people and make poor decisions. And now I don't have all these friends that I previously had. Or, you know, then you get into the the dating sphere and it's like, okay, well, most people, or not I I don't know if I should say most people, but a lot of people meet people when they go out. And it's like you're inebriated, you're all loosened up. It's easier to talk to people. The other people are more receptive. And yeah, there's there's a very interesting thing that comes out of that ⁓ that I've had to kind of reckon with and figure out like, okay, well, there's the pros and the cons. And I would say the pros of a healthy lifestyle outweigh the cons. But then you get into how do we replace that that connection that was lost with the kind of connection that we want. And so that we aren't experiencing loneliness. Like, cause for it's the same. Going to Bali, you meet other people, whether they're sober or not. But you meet people that are on this, I would just say, self-improvement path. And that is something that I find a bit more uncommonly elsewhere. And so go to Bali, it's like this whole world opens up and then come back home and kind of ⁓ not necessarily close off, but it's a smaller world in a sense. No, for for sure, for sure. And I think it what is interesting about the the problem of loneliness, what you ⁓ also just mentioned there is. Is that it's basically a very subjective experience. Many health issues are objective. You can go to a doctor and they can tell you, ⁓ I see where you're coughing, ⁓ you you have a cold, or maybe you you have an injury. It's it's easy. Of course, mental health problems are a bit more difficult to to spot, but they are there are objective measures to come To a diagnosis of certain mental health issues. They can be classified, right? And being lonely is a subjective experience because some people may only have one person in their life that is just perfect for them and they can share everything with and they feel like they have the richest life possible and they don't need any more people than just that one person. And like I already said, some people may have hundreds of people in their life, but because they Of the fact that they can't really share anything meaningful or it's just surface level, or they can share some stuff, but they are lonely in the professional sense or in the leisure sense, ⁓ that it can still constitute loneliness, which is why I think it's such a difficult problem. And another thing that is weird about loneliness, and I'm very curious to hear your take about this, is that Obviously we live in a time where we are more connected than ever, right? We have cell phones in our pockets, we can FaceTime each other. ⁓ we can see what we are doing on Instagram, we're we can send Snapchats and photos of of what we're doing. Like we feel very connected. However, I feel like people are I don't know if it's being reflected in the numbers. It probably is. But in a way, it also feels like we're more disconnected than ever, even though we have more opportunities to talk to each other. Have you looked into this at all? And and ha do you have an explanation for this? Yeah. ⁓ well one additional piece I would add on to that is the whole artificial intelligence ⁓ part and how now you can have a conversation with a made up person. Who you tell it how you want it to be. but yeah, all of all of these factors. I think in the research I did, I didn't do any archival research, but it's kind of interesting because at least in my from what I know, loneliness is kind of a newer thing. Not that it didn't experien didn't exist in the past, but the term has only like come up and been used in the context that we're using it now for not all that long. And ⁓ someone could correct me on this totally. But that's just my understanding. And so in the numbers that I have seen, youth 18 and under are the most susceptible or the ⁓ the group that experiences loneliness the most. And I could only pin that, like I can only imagine that being related to technology because social media, as you just mentioned, is is like the perfect example where you have, I don't know, all these friends on online, you have a hundred, a hundred followers, a thousand followers. You get all this engagement, all these comments hyping you up or whatever, or you don't, but you have this illusion of like, I have so many friends. But in reality, that's that is not your everyday lived experience. That's like you might feel that for a moment when you go online. ⁓ but then you close your phone and you don't have that anymore. And it's like, who are the friends that you do see? And so I can't imagine that not being a significant factor. And like you then you have all the other things of like, ⁓ you see somebody doing living a cool life on social media and it makes you feel shitty about the way you're living and the you know lack of fun that you're having from their ⁓ the fun that they're showing that they're having and those kind of things. But really, it seems like this is a a huge issue. And I mean, the more time you spend online, the less you know how to connect in person. And then with the whole AI thing and LLMs where you can have a chat with them. Now kids are going to be able like already do converse with these with ChatGPT or with Claude or whoever. And now that's their friend. And these things are integrated into social media, into all these other applications and softwares. So you can kind of do this everywhere in a way where it's kind of hard to escape. And it's so integrated and becoming ever more integrated into the world. that it's like I I don't know what to do. I don't know. And I mean, even when I started this research as opposed to now, there wasn't much on the whole AI thing because that was new in 2023 and now that is like everywhere. And so like I haven't done enough on that. But yeah, it's crazy. ⁓ the AI thing is interesting, right? Because we just There's this Harvard study, and ⁓ Harvard did a study on whether AI companions can help alleviate loneliness. And their findings actually said, like, yeah, on a short term, like we caveat, but huge caveat, like we don't know what the long term effects are going to be. So but this is what we find for the short term at least. Talking to an AI companion Does actually significantly alleviate loneliness. The subjective feeling of loneliness, which we just said loneliness is, right? It's a subjective experience of a desire to have more connections with someone. So, in a sense, you could argue that it is a positive thing that people are now speaking to artificial intelligence because it helps alleviate. The feeling of loneliness. But that doesn't really sit right with me, right? Because ⁓ a world, a vision where everyone is just talking to their own little Claude or own little ChatGPT, that doesn't feel like a rich society. That does feel like a very lonely society to me, like like the movie Wally or some shit like that. So it's an interesting paradox in a way that we have to like reconcile these two ⁓ facts. Obviously just one study from Harvard with huge caveats. but yeah it's it's interesting. So we might need to have a second definition of of loneliness in order to make it a little more objective. And other than that there was also this very interesting ⁓ study that was done on when people enter into these Intimate relationships with artificial intelligence, and with intimate, I don't necessarily mean romantic, but like using it as a therapist, right? And using it to discuss certain emotions and feelings like you would with a very close friend or an actual therapist. And most people do, but also general purpose AI systems were more likely to invoke such behavior than AI systems that were specifically built for companionship. So a a ⁓ AI companion bot that was made to be a pretend girlfriend or boyfriend or whatever, those were less likely to induce such behavior. So meaning your average ChatGPT or clot window was more likely to result in people using it as their therapist, which is terrifying, right? Because that means that basically everyone under a certain age is is using something that will eventually ⁓ make you use it as a therapist. And again, like is that a negative thing? Is it a positive thing? I think just going from my gut feeling that it would that it can be a positive thing, ⁓ that you can kind of like offload certain things, but that it is very important to have both. So and the real relationships and perhaps some other stuff. Like if it's there and if it's healthy, I don't know. But maybe, maybe they should ⁓ look into the to the long ⁓ term effects. ⁓ finally before we move into ⁓ your actual ⁓ study I wanna still touch on some of the negative effects of loneliness because we've discussed ⁓ how big of a problem it is. ⁓ but I'm very curious, what does loneliness do to people? How harmful is it? Well, I mean, there's there's definitely a scale just from down from having a bad day and not feeling good in your life to severe effects on your physical and mental health. So on the mental health side, what I found is that these are things such as depression, anxiety, and just like All of the things that those kind of spread into could come from loneliness. And then physically, you have things such as cardiovascular problems, like heart disease and stroke. You have premature death, which ⁓ in one of the studies I found was comparable to smoking 15 cigarettes every single day. So loneliness can increase your chance of dying as much as smoking, I don't know how much a pack of cigarettes is, but like twenty. Yeah. Okay. So almost a pack of cigarettes every day equivalent to just being lonely. And I d I should caveat that with that's like extreme loneliness, like where it is severely like disabling you. You know, somebody who's just like, ⁓ dang, I don't have any friends right now, but is still like an autonomous person. ⁓ it might not have the same effect on them, of course. But yeah, it does it does seem to get pretty extreme. And so it's not just something that is that can be brushed under the rug and it does, you know, has societal economic implications, ⁓ and cultural implications, of course, like in it that kind of exacerbates the whole or don't know if that's the right word. Spreads through the whole world. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I mean obviously you picked the the mill side of things because you are a man. So we don't want to pretend like women can be lonely or that women aren't lonely. But there is this buzzword going around, like the male loneliness epidemic that I believe you want to be very careful with. But ⁓ why how how did that term arise? ⁓ why do you think why do you w want to be careful with that term and and what is the reality of of why are men likely to be lonely. Has it something to do with our personality traits, perhaps? Yeah. So I mean, to be honest, I haven't done research into where the male loneliness epidemic phrase came from. I just saw it on social media and like my friends would be sending me these things about the male loneliness epidemic, whether they were helpful videos or or memes making fun of it, because they were like, ⁓ you're researching loneliness in men. And so like here, male loneliness epidemic. And I don't know, I just kind of generally got this weird vibe from it of like it kind of made whatever was being talked about a joke. And that it's like, ⁓ poor men, like men have everything. And so, you know, that's coming from a certain part of society that would would feel that way. But ⁓ I don't know, it j it just kind of made me not want to use the term in general because there's other ways to refer to loneliness. So I just say loneliness in men. ⁓ because there's loneliness in women, but I don't know if there's the women's loneliness epidemic. but just a way that kind of balances it out. And also all the the numbers and the like the stats I found around loneliness were men and women. Like there wasn't a distinction there. ⁓ and so it was just as far as who I was actually researching that I decided to focus on men. Right. I think part of the reason why people speak of the Male loneliness epidemic is because of the very reason you don't like to use that term. It's because ⁓ there's this idea that men shouldn't whine and shouldn't complain and should should just shut the fuck up and and and carry on with their privileged little lives, right? I think that's exactly the reason why it exists in the first place. because there is this idea, not everyone, but generally in society that that the more privileged you are, which basically like the the the white ⁓ male is is probably like the the peak of not getting any type of of of leeway or or room to to discuss your feelings, which in turn is terrible. for loneliness because that makes it very hard to then talk about it, right? Because we have a feeling maybe should just man up and and and and shut up. Is that something that is also part of like like the traits men have that it's not cool, it's not masculine to to talk about your feelings and you should just suck it up and and carry on? Yeah. So I mean, in my in my research there was definitely a couple things that stood out as to why men in particular might be lonely. And y the biggest one I would say is just masculine and societal norms. And these are things like emotional stoicism, aka emotional restriction, not showing your emotions, being like, I'm fine, I'm strong, you know, men don't cry, those kind of things. You don't need to cry. And how you know, that that being the biggest one. And then you just have kind of general habits as a man of like, you know, you'll see women with like a huge, huge friend circle and guys don't necessarily have that in the same way. And it's just kind of not not common. Maybe you have a big friend circle, but you're not talking about anything serious. You're not talking about like the hard things going on in your life. And again, that's a generalization, but in my lived experience it's like you're just kind of taught to think that's weird. And like why would you talk about your emotions? And then also, especially as a like a kid or a teenager that is nobody teaches you how to do that. Nobody is like, okay, so these are the kind of things that you should share if you're wanting to like have an authentic conversation with somebody or like, this is how to talk about your emotions and think through a way to communicate that. It's like, no, just don't do that. And then, you know, this this is kind of some murky water, but you have the whole this whole like contradiction of of what somebody might be looking for in a partner. And it's like, you know, the the masculine man is is kind of a negative thing in in a certain way, or seen as a negative thing. But then the guy who's emotionally vulnerable is like, ew, that's gross. And so I, you know, I'm kind of confused on that. And, you know, I always grew up with my problem being like, ⁓ I'm the nice guy or I'm I'm too like emotional or whatever. ⁓ and then it's like, but isn't the other guy the enemy? And so like I'm not interesting, but You know, that that gets into a whole other can of worms. ⁓ but I just I just think there's some some funny kind of contradictions there. Yeah. No, I I definitely I I fully agree. It's like b toxic what's the term? ⁓ toxic masculinity, like stop being a man, okay? And then you wanna open up and then stop being a pussy, right? That's that's basically ⁓ if we're if we like completely generalize it, but that's how it's sometimes feel to be a man in 2026. But let's finally dive into ⁓ your study and discuss not only the findings, but just like before we get into the findings, basically can you tell me what it is that you did exactly, ⁓ where you did it, how you did it, and then later we can ⁓ get into some of the the results. Yeah. So I guess I should backtrack too. in my whole progress of my life of experiencing loneliness, being a man, all those things. When I was 19, I joined a men's group. And, you know, I would say this was the second time where I experienced a a space outside of my family where I could be emotionally vulnerable. And the first time being this interesting summer camp that I went to when I was ⁓ I don't know, sixteen or seventeen. But ⁓ you know, ⁓ j generally with the same the same purpose to take off the the mask that we all wear of like hiding our emotions, hiding who we truly are, to be seen and recognized for who who you are, which is a transformational experience. So specifically within my experience as a man, ⁓ and being, you know, going into I guess adulthood, my dad invited me to the men's group that he's a part of. And so I joined and it's a group of men of all ages who come together every two weeks to talk about how they are really doing. And it's kind of a funny thing, but the emphasis is on the really, how are you really doing? Not just how's it going, because it's like, ⁓ I'm good. And then you move on. And that's kind of the the thing that everybody says. ⁓ hey, how's it going? But to have an un interrupted amount of time, whether that's five minutes or 10 minutes, to talk about what's really going on in your life. And that's something that was unique for me to be able to share that to a group of men, whether that's 10 or 20 men, who are sitting there looking at you and listening and they're not interrupting. And, you know, that's of course hard at first, but simply by being a part of a space like that, in my experience and in what I witnessed in the others who are a part of that space, it's a transformational thing because you're getting to share things that you've never potentially never said before, and then have somebody else be like, ⁓ I experienced that too. I understand. And then you actually feel seen. And so when I was tr wanting to research loneliness and had to pick a specific target population and like find, I guess, a gap in the literature as far as how to frame a thesis. It's like, okay, I'm going find a a research question to address a gap in the literature around loneliness. The The gap in the literature was research around men specifically and what could be a s a long term solution to loneliness. There are many sort of interventions to loneliness that I found and it's like, ⁓ well, this thing could work, this thing could work. But it was all short term. And so I was like, Okay, what is something that could sustainably be put in one's life that they could do forever? Because any intervention that is short term is just like, okay, it's done. Now I'm probably gonna be lonely again. But something that you could do forever. And so I was like, okay, well, something that I know about is a men's group that has been transformational for myself. And so when I was thinking of how I wanted to do research, it was like, okay, I want to research the long-term effects of or the per the effects of long-term participation in men's groups on the experience of loneliness in men. So over time, and the thing is this wasn't longitudinal research I was doing, unfortunately. I had a three-month span to do my research. So I was asking people in my interviews, ⁓ which I will get to, about their experience of loneliness in their lives and then how that has changed throughout their participation in a men's group. And so this is something that could be done anywhere, but I just happened to have a connection in Bali to a men's group and knew that if I went to Bali to do my research, I could interview, potentially interview, participants of men's groups. And I wanted to interview people who have been a part of a men's group for a long duration of time. I set a minimum of like three months, but then ended up everybody was like one year to even 30 years being a participant of men's groups. And the other piece being emotionally open men's groups. Because you do have those kind of like macho ⁓ super strong masculine men's groups where you're letting out your whatever primal thing and like no hate on that, but that is not at all what I'm looking into and that is not what I talk am referencing when I talk about a men's group. I'm talking about a space that is emotionally vulnerable and if anything is like a space where it's holding more of the feminine side of of the human experience ⁓ if if we're saying that emotions are more feminine, being emotionally vulnerable. ⁓ which seems to be kind of how how is it is viewed in society right now. So I chose to go to Bali to do my research. And the cool thing about ⁓ my school, LIU Global, was they basically were like, you can pick anywhere in the world to do this research. And you just have to in some places they have partner locations and in some places it's like you're doing it all on your own. So I had help getting set up there. But because I had spent a bunch of time in Bali previously, I already had this connection to a men's group and had kind of the general path for conducting my research laid out. And so it was really once I got there about figuring out a who I was going to be interviewing and how I was going to actually be collecting the data to answer that research question that I previously mentioned. So I got there, I did o throughout the span of the three months, I was there. I did, I participated in a men's group every single week. And then I found 15 interview participants. or research participants through the men's groups. And with them I then, you know, collected my data, recorded the the interviews to transcribe and then ⁓ you know, have all my data to figure out, okay, what does this actually mean and how does this answer my research question? Or does it answer my research question? So I could keep going or I'm No, yeah, no, no, no, it's great. Like I have a good I I have a good understanding of ⁓ No yeah, o of what you wanted to to study ⁓ and and how you landed on on the topic. ⁓ yeah, I guess a natural ⁓ segue is then you you did you conducted the interviews. ⁓ what are some of the c conclusions you are you're willing to draw based on those ⁓ fifteen interviews? Yeah, so I would say the biggest one is that loneliness is ⁓ or sorry, men's groups are an effective mitigation or intervention to loneliness in men. And I say this for a few reasons. The first being that every single guy that I interviewed, every single man that I interviewed, had significant reductions or complete elimination of loneliness through their participation in men's groups. And some, it seemed, had been, you know, had kind of figured it out before or found community before particularly. joining a men's group, but it seems like for the men who didn't have other men in their life didn't have a space where they could share ⁓ in a mo in an emotional vulnerable in a in an emotionally vulnerable way, that this was the s first space they could do it and it kind of functioned as a a the catalyst in a in a big transformation for them to learn how to talk about their emotions, to learn how to get more in touch with themselves and To have the opportunity to see and be seen by other men in a nonjudgmental way. And so that's I mean, that's the biggest thing. And ⁓ I mean, through my through my data analysis, I did have five main findings and I could kind of walk through those as well. ⁓ but yeah, the biggest one just being this like that yes, I would say this is a viable route to, you know, I I don't want to just go out and say this is the solution to loneliness. But this might be a solution or a path to explore as far as so a solution to loneliness, which is connection. Yeah, which is I mean it it's worth exploring at least, right? Because ⁓ where all these men that you spoke to where they already is the reason they decided to join these groups because they were already feeling lonely, and then joining these groups alleviated some of those feelings, or did some of these men just also weren't necessarily lonely or feeling lonely when they entered into them, but then as soon as they were in them, realized like, hey, this is incredible. And maybe I was a little lonely even though I didn't realize it? Yeah. I would I would say it's a pretty mixed bag. I mean, people join men's groups for a variety of reasons and In the ones that I've been a part of, it's all been through word of mouth or invitations from others. And so it's generally somebody else in your life saying, Hey, I think this would really help you, or I think you would fit in here great. And so it's not necessarily somebody saying you'd be like, ⁓ you're like in a really bad place. You should do this. Sometimes it is though. And sometimes it's like, hey, my friend just told me he thinks this would help me. And so I'm gonna show up and I don't really know what this is, and it might be kind of weird. But they just kind of take a leap of faith and come and see what it's like. And through seeing what other people are sharing and kind of the flow of the group, you gain some comfortability. But but yeah, it it was a big variety. And ⁓ yes, what you said about people being like, ⁓ wait, I didn't think I was lonely, but now, you know, with how I feel now, like I must have been. And ⁓ I think not having close male friends as a man is would be a shame. And you know, it's I think a pretty common experience. No, for sure. And you mentioned that there were this was the biggest finding, but that you have ⁓ five like sub findings. ⁓ I believe you have your ⁓ thesis ⁓ close to you. Maybe we can walk ⁓ through some of ⁓ some of those or or all of those. Yeah let's do it. yeah, so I mean I say this is my biggest finding. It's just kind of a culmination of the findings. It's like the answer to the question is is yes. but yeah, so I kind of break this up into five main findings or themes as far as the literature. So I I basically, as I did all of my interviews or as I coded my interviews, I found like over 300 different codes or like things that were of significance. Which then sorted down into these five themes. And I took that was a that was a fun process. But the first, they kind of each like build onto each other kind of in a, I don't know if it would be a pyramid structure or something, but starting with ⁓ the first one, which is that structural safety within a men's group enables vulnerability and connection. And so it kind of I mean, all of these are worded kind of funny, but essentially what this means is that. A men's group like so another thing is that I'm I'm focusing on men's groups built with intention. And so this is not just a group of men getting together, but it is a I mean it is a group of men getting together, but you know, like there is a a facilitator there, somebody who's like, Hey, I wanna bring you together into this space, creating an intentional space with clear agreements or rules to follow. And I think it's important too that in spaces like this That there's not particularly a leader. There can be somebody facilitating the space, somebody holding the space, but nobody is in charge per se. And so having clear agreements, clear boundaries around the group creates the space for emotional vulnerability. That is the first thing. And so if you have, I mean, just imagine you go to some group and there's like, okay, so like, hey, we're gonna talk about our emotions today, like. Hey, Julius, like tell me how you're feeling. And nobody has said any kind of like, okay, this is the this is the vibe here. This is the agreements that we're gonna set. Nobody has said, like, I'm not going to share whatever you tell me to the world. Like, you're not gonna say anything. And so that, you know, that is one of the like vital, vital ingredients of this is what stay what is said in the group stays in the group. Like you are not allowed, you should not share anything that anybody says to anybody else. It is for that space only, for your ear zone. And I think that's incredibly important. And then the only way you can really trust that is by seeing like, let's say it's your first time there, you see somebody else share something so incredibly vulnerable, you're like, okay, well, this must be true, because this guy would not be saying this if somebody else was just gonna turn around and tell the next person they saw. So I think that is, you know, that is one of the biggest pieces of this. And then just who is holding the space? I mean, I'm sure you've Like a good example of this would be like in a classroom, you have a teacher, and that teacher could totally suck, or they could be the best person in the world. And that totally changes the experience of the classroom, of that environment, of how you learn what you take away, how the people in the class act. And so in a men's group, depending on who your facilitator is, who the person who's like I say leading, they're not the leader, but they are leading, guiding the group, depending on who they are, how they speak, and how they are encouraging and supporting people. That could be the difference between a six a successful men's group and not having one. So those are kind of the the ingredients if that makes sense of of that first finding. Yeah, no, the that that does that does make sense. And I'm I'm thinking so it's structured in the sense that there's a facilitator there, it's it's do it's You're getting together with a with a purpose. It's not just guys hanging out at a bar, for example, or or or kicking a football. Like you're actually going there at a design designated time, at a designated location, with the intention to share vulnerable things about yourself and listen to others and potentially help unders other under the the guidance of a facilitator who is not above the rest of the group but yeah it's it's ⁓ a level playing field essentially yes exactly exactly that's that's it you nailed it. Okay. Yeah perfect. Okay well we can ⁓ we can go to the next one then I suppose yeah sure. And so my next finding is around, you know, kind of we talked about in the causes of loneliness, ⁓ one of them being emotional stoicism or like the whole, you know, male, male mascul or sorry, masculine norms. ⁓ and so the male-specific space of a man's group facilitates vulnerability for men or masculine vulnerability. And so this was one of the things that I kind of found consistently throughout the interviews is men saying like, Look, if there was a woman here in this space, I would not be saying anything about how I'm really doing. I'm I would not be sharing my emotions ⁓ in this way because not for everyone. You know, some people are like, I could talk about how I'm I could talk about my emotions with anybody. But people were pretty consistently saying, like, yeah, I just wouldn't be vulnerable. Like it changes it in a certain way, especially for, you know, ⁓ a straight single man in a group. A woman comes into that group and now the dynamic has just changed. And so it's like you're not as focused. You're like, there's there's just other things going on. And, you know, I don't have all of the the words or terminology to necessarily speak to what's happening like in your brain, but it it is just kind of different. At least that's that's my experience, and that's a lot of other men's experience. And so having a space that's only men, it's not ⁓ it's not about excluding, but it's just that it's kind of a it's kind of required, it's kind of essential. and there are, you know, there are people's like I don't know what it would be called then, but like, you men's group, women's group, but like a group of of both genders to have a similar kind of thing. It would just take a specific kind of person to make that work. But generally speaking, you have a guy who's totally uncomfortable being emotionally vulnerable, bring ⁓ to just a group of men who are being emotionally vulnerable and they will learn how to do it. So that's kind of the I Yeah, I I I can see why. I mean I if I just speak for myself, I I I haven't been part of of ⁓ a lot of these. Like I have been invited to one, I believe. It was in Bali as well, but it was more like the one you described that you specifically didn't wanna research. So it was kinda it was not for me. That one was not for me for sure. It was more like letting out your your trauma by by yelling and and standing in a circle and and screaming and stuff and I don't know. Like I r again, nothing against those guys. Like if if that fires you up or or helps you in any way, shape or form, like by all means go for it. But ⁓ that wasn't for me for sure. So but that was my only experience with something similar. ⁓ and I say similar it's something very different than what you've researched. So I've never really been part of one. But I will say, if I imagine to be part of one, I also don't think that I would want to have ⁓ women around or girls around. Like we are biologically programmed to to make an impression. Like if you want it or not. Like maybe you you you start to add jokes into the mix or you want to be funny or you want to impress someone, even though you may not. think that you're doing it, like unconsciously, there are some dynamics happening there. Like there are guys who want to prove and show that they're the alpha of the group and like that's exactly what you're trying to prevent in finding one. So I think they ⁓ they are ⁓ tied together in in in some way as well there. ⁓ but very interesting. What what is the the third point you ⁓ you you found? Yes. Yeah. The third point is that vulnerable sharing and witnessing within a men's group increases a or transforms isolation into connection. So you have these two functions or these two things that are really what is happening in a men's group, which is sharing to others and witnessing others share, hearing what they are sharing. And doing this vulnerably. And so, you know, I could give an example of that, but ⁓ let's say I don't know, you're having a really hard time in your relationship or at your job or something, and it's just like, no, I got I'll stick with the relationship. So you are feeling very stuck and like there's nothing you can do. Everything you do is wrong. And you just feel like nobody will understand that. And it's like you shouldn't say anything bad about your partner. And so you don't really know what to be doing, but like you're kind of in a stuck in a place financially in this relationship or whatever. And so you let's say you go to a men's group and you're experiencing this, but you just can't say anything. And then somebody else starts talking about your situation, but it's theirs. And you're like, wait a second. Like this guy understands. He's saying exactly what I'm experiencing right now. Or it could be like, Hey, I am completely depressed right now. Like life feels meaningless. And like I don't even want to be here. And but my friend just told me to To come and I'm feeling terrible. And then somebody else is experiencing that too, or somebody else shares that after you. And so it's like basically, I say, transforming isolation into connection. It's this like we have this illusion often of I'm alone in this, like I'm the only one who understands this problem. But then given the chance to either hear somebody or share and then somebody else tell you, like, look, man, I understand. I've been there. I am there. And that is just such a Such a powerful experience. And in a space, in a men's group, you're pretty likely to have, you know, a group of 10 or 15 men, you're pretty likely that somebody has experienced or many people have experienced the issue you're going through. And maybe they have have some kind of solution for it and are like, okay, well, this is what I did to get out of this. And that's something that I see pretty consistently. But it's a yeah, a huge function of men's groups, I would say. Yeah. I mean if Yeah, i it it immediately gives ⁓ a a shared a a sense of connection if someone is going through something similar as you. And yeah, I really like what you said there about that we often think that we are the only ones who struggle with something and that is probably also a a bigger reason why we don't always share it because we do feel like, yeah, I'm I'm I'm all by myself in this and there's no point in ⁓ in bringing ⁓ it it up anyway. And I I come back to the point like I ⁓ said, like the the whole thing about the creator house, why people when when it was ⁓ shut down, the story I told earlier about me for the first time in such a long time being part of something bigger and part of something where everyone had similar goals. The entire reason that it was such a success and why people were so sad when it shut down was because of that very reason. There are just ⁓ so many people who want to go on this creative journey and who want to start making content or start writing or start a podcast or start making music or whatever it is, but they feel like, yeah, I'm I I'm the only one doing it. And Yeah, talking to all these people who had the similar struggles ⁓ of finding similar people ⁓ was very powerful for me. So I can definitely ⁓ attest to that from from my own experience. Yeah. I mean, one thing I would I would love to say just about the the creator house was that is an example, I would say, of a lot of the functions of a men's group just playing out in the real world and in everyday life and having a space where you have You know, a level of community and people are always doing things together and having meals together and having really deep conversations. And it was just kind of like the perfect environment for something like that to happen where it almost didn't feel like real life. It's like, how are we getting to live here and like have all these cool people literally just like coming here like ma like they're attracted to a magnet or something? yeah, that was that was incredibly special in that way. And I think a lot of the reasons why that worked are the same things I'm finding within my research. Yeah, it's it felt very surreal. It felt like you were part of some show, but without the cameras. I mean there were plenty of cameras around, ⁓ don't get me wrong, but ⁓ nobody was recording you twenty four seven, at least I hope not. I believe we have four or there's one more, right? Two more. Two more. Two more. ⁓ we had three. Yes, we had three. So the next one is sustained participation in a men's group. Builds internalized belonging that persists in solitude and solitude, isolation, you know, being by yourself. So this is a a pretty significant one, which is that as I went through these interviews, I found that everybody was kind of saying the same thing, which is that when they are alone, they still know that they have a group of men who are there to support them. And so they aren't like fully alone when they're alone, if that makes sense. It's like You know, you like you know your family, hopefully, will always be there to support you. And so even if you're in a really bad situation, it's like you have somebody to call. And a men's group kind of works in in a similar way where it's like after after being in one for a while, like you have no doubt in your mind that these people love and care about you. And that if you are struggling with something, they will help you. Like you always can call somebody, they will pick up the phone. Like you can always Get some b get support in a way that ⁓ makes it so that loneliness doesn't feel so lonely. And you know, it's like this in itself isn't the solution. It's just a it's just an effect. It's an effect that that makes it so the experience of being by yourself is actually much better, which kind of gets into the the next the final finding, ⁓ which kind of segues, which is that participation. in a man's group develops relational competence and transforms the experience of solitude. So I'll get to the relational competence part next, but transforming the experience of solitude, so not only is it like is it ⁓ like I don't feel alone when I'm alone, I don't feel lonely when I'm alone, but it's actually become can become a positive experience because there's no longer the the sense of something being wrong with being by yourself. And I mean you know, for myself personally, like I love time alone. I think it's great. But if I didn't feel like there was anybody and that it wasn't a choice to be alone, that would be really hard. And so it can be a very, you know, meditative or just relaxing time to be able to unwind. But that comes with the knowledge of having people that do support you and that you do feel connected to. A sense of belonging is is key in all of this. If you have a sense of belonging to a group, It ⁓ I mean that was actually one of the things throughout the the research prior to this was in a lot of the solutions was around developing belonging. And this was in it was basically just identity based groups. And so you have a group of people that are there for some similar purpose. And so this is something that would work like for a sports team, is you'll have this belonging to the sports team. But a belonging to a men's group is ⁓ a bit more meaningful because of of that what I shared previously. with ⁓ as far as I don't even know if I ful explained that fully, but like vulnerability to connection. Yeah. So being vulnerable, you see other people. The idea okay, I guess I did. You see other people for who they truly are, they see who you for who you truly are, leads to a strong sense of connection. And so that belonging that you then feel to the group is kind of compounded by the sense of like these other people actually see you, actually know you. And so ⁓ you know, I'm kind of jumping around here, but getting back to the fifth one. relational competence was another that's kind of a funny way of saying this, honestly, but it sounds fancy, and so I threw it in there. ⁓ you know. ⁓ but rel improved rel like relational competence being a a relationship has two sides to it. You have the relationship with the person and the person has the relationship with you, right? Your ability in relationships, whether that's friendships with your family, romantic partners. All of that seems to expand. And many men were like, since being a part of a men's group, the my relationship with my wife or with my best friend has deepened immensely. And this was attributed to the increased emotional capacity or emotional depth that they were able to go into and which, you know, leads to better communication. It's like, hey, this is how I am feeling. And this like I didn't mean what I said earlier and to be more in touch with the emotional side instead of not knowing how to talk about it, because you get the experience of talking about your emotions over and over. You start to be able to do that in other spaces. And then like let's say you have some, I don't know, childhood friend who you've never talked about your emotions with, but now you have all this experience doing that. And so you can kind of open the door, which is something that I've done. Like my childhood friends who I was like, you know, this these relationships feel dull compared to like somebody who I've like talked about what's really going on in my life. And then, you know, you you learn how to open that door. And so all relationships, I like from what I found, all relationships benefit from this. And that's that's really cool. That's super interesting. ⁓ and yeah, I mean, it it makes sense to to get the reps in and and to know what it does to you and if that has a positive effect on you, that it translates to different relationships as well. And I mean I understand the the security part, like having the idea like to ⁓ transforming being by yourself into a positive experience. I I understand as well. But it's like if you if you sleep in a tent because you're on holiday and you're out camping, that's a nice experience. But if you sleep in a tent because you have no home That sucks, right? So it's the sense of security of being able to go back to a home, of why the experience of sleeping in a tent can be very nice and and relaxing. if we ⁓ if we w wanna make a parallel there. Is if we if we ⁓ if if people are listening to to this and ⁓ are thinking I would like to join a man's group. Or perhaps start one. What are some of the things that make for a good man's? Yes. Well, that's a very good question. And I think I mean, hopefully soon there will be more resources out there as to where you can go to just join a men's group or learn how to create one. But I mean, I guess for starters, you have in the men's group that I'm a part of here at home, I think there's basically four main things, like four pillars of what makes this men's group a good men's group. And these are, I mean, there's three main ones, which are ⁓ consistency, proximity, and intimacy. And so consistency means showing up, being a consistent face, a consistent member of the group. Proximity means being around each other, not just in like not just going to the meetings, but like the having this be a community that is built in that like you're hanging out outside of the meetings and seeing each other. And then intimacy is just the that vulnerability aspect of like being open, being honest, connecting in an intimate way. And that doesn't, you know, that's not the other kind of intimacy at all. ⁓ but but kind of these three pillars. And then the the fourth, which was suggested by ⁓ the facilitator of the men's group I go to is mutual support. And that is kind of what I mentioned. Well, I guess I didn't fully mention earlier. But so you have the The sharing and being witnessed, but then you also have the supporting and being supported by. And so the first question that I I said back at the beginning of this, of like what is asked at a men's group, is how are you really doing? But the second question, at least again, this is my men's group, is how can we support you? And so it's these two questions, and that is all you talk about. You have maybe eight minutes to answer the first, two minutes to answer the how can we support you? And That's very it's very hard for men to ask for support from other men, I found. Yeah. You know, it's it's like actually a skill to be able to ask somebody, to be able to first figure out how could I be supported in my life and then to ask for it, because it's a pretty vulnerable thing to tell some like to ask that. but mutual support, supporting others and being supported by them is also something that just deepens the a sense of connection to to others. And it feels good. Like You know, for me, when I am helping somebody, I am being selfish because it feels good to help somebody. And so it's like I am betting for I'm benefiting from this. You do not need to feel bad for asking for help. you know, if that makes sense. And so these these four things, proximity, consistency, intimacy, mutual support, those are the things, those are the pillars that make for a good men's group. And, you know, generally speaking, the structure of the men's group that I go to, you come together, it's We go every every other week. You just pick a day that works. And it's about a I think a two, two and a half hour meeting. We go six PM to eight thirty. And six to six thirty is just like everyone brings food, chat a little bit. And then six thirty to eight thirty, we divide the two hours by the number of people that are in the space. And each person gets that much time to speak. And so that could be ten minutes, that could be five minutes, whatever. If the group is too big, then you divide it into two subgroups. And you then answer these two questions and go around the circle answering these two questions. ⁓ another thing that's important or that that we find important is like looking each person in the eye bef as you come into the space and as you leave, you know, like giving a hug, shaking a hand, whatever, recognizing each person and that this is incredibly important in just being seen. And like somebody are some people are not going to get that outside of the group. Some people are not going to be touched by another human being outside of this group, which is crazy and which is sad. And I think that is an im of incredibly invite an incredibly vital thing for hum us as humans. So yeah, you have you have this time where each person is is sharing and then you have the rest of the time, 90% of the time or more, where you're listening and you're getting to hear other people speak, which is Just in itself a great practice. I would say in as far as like a strategy or way to figure out how to share emotion in an emotional emotionally vulnerable way, ⁓ there's something that I learned at the men's group I went to in Bali called the PIS framework, which is P-I-E-S-S-S. And so you have you ask yourself these questions. How am I doing physically? How am I doing intellectually? How am I doing emotionally P I E S spiritually, S sexually, S socially, or, you know, in whatever order. And so you basically can just talk about, okay, well, I think like what what's going on physically for me? Like I feel good in my body or I don't. I have this terrible headache. Like whatever the thing is, ⁓ going through those and it's like, ⁓ well you just talked about how you were really doing. And for somebody that's like, ⁓ I don't really know what to say right now, like that's That's a a good way to do it. and then beyond that, it's like you kind of just have to s if if you yourself are wanting to start a men's group, it's taking the leap and find finding a few people that are like, okay, these are my close friends, but we don't have a really deep relationship in in the sense of talking about our emotions and ⁓ you know, it feels just kind of surface level. It's like might feel kind of ⁓ vulnerable and risky to say, hey, like. I have this idea for us to create a men's group and try this thing and like let's see if it works. And then you have you are the one who has to encompass those different pillars to make the space happen, to bring people together, to like send the reminders, hey, like our meeting is gonna happen tonight. Like it could start with three people. Like that would be fine. It could start with two people. And that's I mean, yes, that's just a conversation. But ⁓ you know, it can it can start small and then expand, but it's really like. You find somebody who's like, hey, I think this would be a good fit for you. Like, you seem like a cool person. Would you be interested in joining this men's group? And, you know, this is basically just a space where we come together and talk and get to know each other more and share what's really going on in our lives. And as far as, you know, spaces that exist out there, I mean, there's a lot of a lot of different men's groups that do exist. Some of them which ⁓ I've heard some not not very good things about, which is why. A space where it's as simple as this. You have two questions. You don't particularly have a facilitator that is like, I'm in charge, like at the men's group I go to, anybody can be the person who introdu like opens the space, introduces it. ⁓ I guess that's reminding me of of one other thing, which is the agreements of of a men's group. And so like I mentioned earlier, you know, once if you're bringing somebody new into the space, you want them to agree to these things. And the first of these agreements is confidentiality. And that again, what What is shared in a space like this is not said anywhere else. And we caveat this with in my group that if somebody says something so incredible, amazing, and you're just like, I have to share this with somebody, to take the names out of it, to make it so nobody could tie that back to the person, but you know, the still the learning from it. And like, of course, that that would be okay to share. but yeah, first is is that. And then you have you have the the consistency, the showing up that it is expected that you when you join the men's group that you you are there, like you are going to make the effort to, you know, be there on time, to show up consistently. And that ⁓ yeah, I mean those are those are the biggest ones. And yeah. Yeah. No, I mean that's very helpful. I think those are very good pointers and and directions for people to go. in if they are interested in in either searching for one or or starting one themselves. I liked what you said about that PICE framework because I feel like I don't I'm I'm a pretty open person. I have I I don't really have much issues talking about some of the stuff that's going on in my life. But I also don't really feel lonely about talking about certain stuff. There's some some health stuff in my family currently going on, unfortunately. And ⁓ I'm I'm perfectly fine dealing with that within my family. And d some friends do ask me about it, but I really don't want to talk to them about this situation with my friends for some reason. I don't know why, but when they ask like I appreciate you asking but I didn't really feel like talking about it. What I'm more interested in and why I do sometimes experience loneliness is because I feel like I can't really intellectually connect with someone or connect some with someone ⁓ talking about my workouts and nerding out about a new calisthenics routine or about this ⁓ high protein meal I wanted to try. Just some nerdy gym stuff, you know, or it is ⁓ being able to talk about ⁓ videos and and ⁓ art and and stuff like that. So it's more to me that I sometimes feel lonely on an intellectual level or a fitness level, rather interests level rather, than that I have some sort of like traumas that I want to talk about and and some of the stuff. So ⁓ for everyone it can be different, right? ⁓ because we we've talked about it, that's where my sometimes lonely feelings come from, but I don't really feel the need to to share other stuff even with people I I very, very close to. Maybe I should. Like I don't know. Maybe it would help. I I don't know. But I just like it doesn't I don't feel like an intrinsic motivation to do so. Well I do feel very strongly about the other points I I just raised. So I guess like I that framework kind of helps to see like there is probably something in one of those categories that you want to talk about with someone. And I guess that that framework kind of helps with that. Is that why it works? Maybe ca is that the reason why why why they have it? I mean I think I think it's a helpful framework just because the you have so many things. Everyone has so many things they could talk about, but it's hard to know where to start. ⁓ I would want to say like, yes, definitely from From the things that I've shared, I could see how it's like, ⁓ well, this is very serious, or like you should be sharing something super deep. But sometimes somebody like, it's like, honestly, my life is going really good right now. Like I'm just gonna talk about my wins, like what's been awesome. And or like, like, hey, this is what my kid just learned, and it's like made me the happiest person ever. And ⁓ or it's like, hey, this is a struggle I'm going w or that's happening in my business right now and it's really stressing me out and I don't know what to do. And and then at the end it's like Hey, if anybody has had experience with this, like reach out to me, I'd let's grab a coffee and talk. Or I'm trying, like, for me, at every single man's group meeting, at the end, my support request is come work out with me. And like if you don't know how to work out, I'll teach you, like, I'll take you through a workout, whatever. Like, just come hang. I just want to talk. And like that's it. I'm not asking for some big thing. And sometimes in my shares, I'm just like talking about whatever new thing that I found that's interesting. And like, You know, sometimes somebody's like, you know, I've been thinking about God recently and like what does that mean? And it like it can be like those interests and those kind of things. And th also within the same circle of men, somebody can share something that is like super heavy and like something they're struggling with. But that doesn't mean that somebody else can't share something positive still. In fact, the people who share the negative thing are like, Thank you for sharing that because that is showing me that there are good things in life and like that there's still things to look forward to. And so you have you always have a mixed bag of of experience and what people what are is happening in people's lives. And like for you to say, like, I don't really want to talk about, you know, what's going on with my family right now, like, that's so, so valid and so allowed. And, you know, that's also something that plenty of people say. It's like honestly, like, yeah, there are some really bad things going on in in my family life or whatever. but I would rather focus on this. And than they do. And ⁓ it's really just like the the bigger structures of sharing to a group of people, hearing what they have to say, those kind of things that make the space what it is. And of course you want to be doing this in an environment where the people are the kind of people you'd want to be around anyways. Like if you're in a men's group and it's all people that are living totally different lives to you, like some of the functions might be the same, but You know, like I think it would be great for, you know, like the group of us in in Bali that were just always together to have some kind of group like that. And like if we were all because, you know, we'd go get steaks every week, but ⁓ you know, like to have a space like that, it does go into all of those, like all of our interests would surface and all of those things. And it's like, you know, we all seem to be kind of kicking ass, but ⁓ you know, to get a little bit deeper into that, into like what is actually going on in our lives, and it doesn't have to be negative, like the the underlying thing is like this can be very positive too. I I love say negative but like hard, you know? Mm-hmm. Yeah no I love that you that you emphasize that because I I think unconsciously when people think about a bunch of men or or or women or whatever, like people coming together to discuss their feelings, it kind of has this negative connotation, right? It's almost feels like some sort of AA meeting. It's like, hey, my name is ⁓ John and I'm an alcoholic and my wife left me and and I wanna go to the liquor store right now. Like that's that's what some people may have. Like that's ⁓ w ⁓ an idea that might have but ⁓ I I'm very glad that you emphasize the fact that it's like yeah, it's just about opening up and opening up can very well be positive and and and sometimes it can be difficult as well, but it's it's it's all of it and not just one one aspect of it. Is is do you think ⁓ everyone should try it? Like it's probably difficult to say it is n there's always going to be differences within people, right? So saying it is everyone will like it is probably a bit ⁓ too far. Some people may like it, some people may not like it, some people may not need it because they have the richest life possible. But would you say that everyone should at least try it once? Or twice or three times or whatever. I don't think it would hurt. I don't think it would hurt to go to a emotionally open, intentionally designed men's group. You know, a space that does have experience and that is well structured. Like you're gonna make some friends, you're gonna have a good time. And yeah, so sometimes people come and they're like, Hey, like this isn't really my thing. Like I just don't like being emotionally vulnerable and I'm good with that. And like some people are just like that and that's fine. some people find it's a it's a great thing for them and and yeah, sometimes people it's like it takes them a few meetings to warm up. but it's it's definitely a a person by person kind of experience. yeah, I'm curious for you, like do you think this is something you would would want to try at some point? Sure. Like I I think i I would be open to it ⁓ in in ⁓ d In the way you described it, that's something I'd I'd be open to. I wouldn't I'm I'm a I'm someone who is open to to new experiences, right? ⁓ it couldn't hurt their I'm I'm in a very good place right now, so I I don't gen necessarily feel very lonely at this point. I don't feel very unhappy at this point, but I mean that has for sure not always been the case, right? So ⁓ I should yeah, I'm open to it and I think I think it could could maybe help to to be more more stable. Like like you say, like it it wouldn't it wouldn't hurt. ⁓ so it's definitely something that I that I would be would be open to. It's just as I currently see it, like if I just see like starting it with some of my friends here back home, like Like you say, like with my friends that are abroad and in in in Bali right now, like like the stake meetings we had every every week, like with those group of people, I can definitely imagine myself doing something like that. ⁓ with my friends back home, not so much. I don't think that would work because they're so incredibly ⁓ different ⁓ than ⁓ than the the people I know abroad. But that's fine, right? I mean, ⁓ that's ⁓ That's that's also an answer. I mean, it's like we say, it's probably not for everyone and it's probably not with everyone too. Yeah. So yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And you're right, like not everybody needs it either. Like, you know, one one example I was thinking of on like the extreme end of of somebody who doesn't have connection. Like, imagine a monk that is like sitting, I don't know, in a cave or something. Like, they're not I mean, maybe they're lonely, but I don't think Loneliness is a requirement of being by yourself. And it's like you could just be in a in a phase of your life where it's like you're super self-driven, you're like focused on your goals and you don't necessarily need other people around for the things that you're working on. And like that's so allowed. And you know, you can have times where you do have a group like that and times where you don't. But you know, I mean, I've heard like this thing of like everybody should have a therapist. Like even if you're not struggling with anything, like everyone should have a therapist. Like I don't necessarily know that that's true, but or believe that, but ⁓ I kind of think the same thing about a men's group. It's like everyone should be a part of a men's group and like have a space where they can go if they want to go, when they want to go. And you know, something like that, where it's literally just like a group of friends, but the quality of of the friendships of the the community is just a bit deeper and as a side effect of emotional vulnerability. And that doesn't mean again that every like you don't join a men's group. You don't have to join a men's group because something is wrong in your life. Like join a men's group because something is right and it's like, this is great. These are some good new friends. This is awesome. ⁓ you know, that kind of thing. Yeah. Keen, this was amazing. Is there something we haven't touched on that you would still like to mention while we're on the topic? No, honestly I think I think this has been very comprehensive. I mean I wish there was a a link I could I could send people to of like here, go here to ⁓ learn how to start a men's group. I think that will be available soon. The facilitator of the men's group I go to, ⁓ he he is creating something. I don't think it's it's publicly available yet. It's something like brother brotherglobal dot org or something, but ⁓ I don't think the the site's actually online. but I think one day soon, you know, I'm sure there's gonna be a bajillion school communities about it and all that. Yeah. But yeah, really. Your study is finished. Yeah, no, of course. Yeah, it is. Yeah, no, yeah, of course, of course. No, but I was gonna say your study is finished now. So ⁓ what's ⁓ what's next for you? ⁓ jeez. Well, big question on So just graduated college and kinda taking this summer of twenty twenty six to figure out what's next. I think there's a there is a significant or yeah, a possibility that I will continue down a path where, you know, the whole idea of men's groups and loneliness and connection is something that that stays consistent and I've kind of always thought of that as something for the future because I would love to just have a whole bunch of money and then fund like start some really cool projects. ⁓ from a place of not like, ⁓ I need to go fundraise to make this thing happen, but like, hey, here's a cool thing. Join it. It's gonna make your life better. ⁓ just because I think men's groups or not just men's groups, but like authentic human connection is something that everybody could use in their life. And ⁓ so that's something I hope to be a part of creating someday, whether that's communities, you know, like the Creator House, like I you know, a dream of having one of those in every country or many countries and ⁓ just spaces for deeper, more real connection. That is something I would love to to create in in the short term. I think ⁓ kind of establishing myself as a a solopreneur as as our good friend Max calls it. And ⁓ you know figuring out how I can make a living while living, as one of the songs I like says. Or make a living out of living. That's beautiful. And I know you said there you don't have a website or or or a specific place you can point people to, but if ⁓ people do want to keep up with with whatever you end up doing, ⁓ where can they go? Yeah, ⁓ well I guess YouTube would be the the best one ⁓ at this point, which My YouTube is B N Kian, that is B-E-I-N, and then my first name, Kian K-I-A-N. Just, you know, I thought of thought it was cool because it rhymed B in Kean. ⁓ but anyways, I have a little short film on there about my research on loneliness, which I think does have a couple links in there to if you were interested to find out more. ⁓ yes, that would be the best place to go. And then You know, my other socials are the same thing. ⁓ if you ever wanted to reach out directly, of course. Yeah. But I think Yeah, perfect. I'll I'll put I'll put it ⁓ I'll put everything in ⁓ in the show notes. ⁓ but thank you so much for for coming on, ⁓ Keen. This was incredible and I yeah, I learned a lot today. It was a very interesting conversation and you're so knowledgeable about everything. ⁓ even yeah, you you you Yeah, you you knew so much from the from the top of your head, even though like you ⁓ you w wanted to have ⁓ the thesis ready, but like you were you were very, very knowledgeable. So it's very clear that you spend a lot of time ⁓ thinking about this and experiencing it. And ⁓ yeah, I had a blast and it was ⁓ very, very ⁓ helpful, useful and and fun. So thank you. Yeah, thank you, Julius. I mean, this was an incredible opportunity. First time being o on a podcast. And ⁓ it was a great conversation too. I mean, I always enjoy our conversations and so thank you so much. Yeah, let's run it back someday. ⁓ hopefully ⁓ in real life and ⁓ when we're both in Bali. Dude, let's do it. That's perfect. Awesome.