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Martha & Loren Talk Christian Leadership Across the US-Canada border · Future Christian

• 0:06
  >> Loren Richmond: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your source
• 0:09
  for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in the
• 0:12
  21st century. At the Future Christian
• 0:15
  Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors
• 0:17
  and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
• 0:20
  wisdom to help you and your community of faith
• 0:23
  walk boldly into the future. Whether
• 0:26
  you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
• 0:29
  of your faith community, this podcast is designed
• 0:32
  to challenge, inspire, and equip you with the
• 0:35
  tools you need for impactful ministry.
• 0:38
  >> Martha Tatarnic: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast.
• 0:41
  I am, um, co host of Future
• 0:43
  Christian and today I am
• 0:46
  so pleased to be joined by
• 0:49
  my co Host, Loren Richmond
• 0:52
  Jr. Hi Loren.
• 0:54
  >> Loren: Thank you for having me.
• 0:56
  >> Martha Tatarnic: Uh, we get to listen to one another's episodes
• 0:59
  all the time and we're kind of back and
• 1:02
  forth over text and email about
• 1:05
  the podcast, but it is a treat to actually
• 1:08
  book some time to catch up with one another.
• 1:11
  >> Loren: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
• 1:13
  >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. So we thought that we would use our,
• 1:16
  um, you know, like
• 1:18
  season recap,
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  check in to talk a
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  little bit about Canada, uh, U.S.
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  relations. And you're
• 1:30
  in Colorado, uh, and
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  I'm in Niagara,
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  and uh, we're on different
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  sides of what is suddenly a trade war.
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  Um, so we thought that we would talk
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  about those different perspectives and how we're
• 1:46
  navigating it, how we're navigating it with our faith
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  communities, um, all of those things.
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  But I thought that before we got into
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  some of those, more,
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  um, political,
• 2:01
  uh, updates that we might just do a bit of
• 2:04
  a personal check in because, Loren, you've
• 2:06
  had things going on in your
• 2:09
  life, some, uh, vocational
• 2:11
  transitions and stuff. Do you want to share with
• 2:14
  our listeners, uh, what
• 2:17
  has been happening for you?
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  >> Loren: Yeah, well, I tried to hint at
• 2:22
  this, I think in the past hoping
• 2:25
  that there would be a, you know, I've talked about how carrying
• 2:28
  Future Christian through several jobs or a few jobs,
• 2:31
  and I hinted at I hope there'd be a fourth or fifth transition to carry it
• 2:33
  through. So I'm fortunate to
• 2:36
  hopefully be doing that here through a
• 2:39
  new transition. So I'm going to be working kind of in a.
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  It's hard to think what the correct terminology would be, but I
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  guess I'll call it like a multi vocational
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  role centered around
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  church and ministry. I suppose. So I'll be working
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  part time as a hospital chaplain
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  part time for a ministry
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  nonprofit that supports worship
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  leaders and church leaders, and then
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  also for another small role
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  for a local nonprofit that's trying to help churches
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  develop land for affordable housing.
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  So really excited about these things. Obviously
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  represents a big transition for me and
• 3:20
  my family. But um, something that's been helpful
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  for me as I've kind of been
• 3:25
  through a period of discernment, so to speak,
• 3:28
  trying to figure out what to do with my life, is
• 3:32
  I've found some clarity
• 3:35
  with the understanding that I still feel called to the
• 3:38
  church.
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  >> Martha Tatarnic: Mhm.
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  >> Loren: To serve the church. And
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  some recognition. That doesn't mean that I have to have a
• 3:45
  certain title. Right. I don't have to have the title of
• 3:47
  pastor to be fulfilling my calling. And I think that's been a
• 3:50
  helpful discernment for me.
• 3:53
  >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I think that's really good. And I mean that does sound
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  like, I mean it sounds like a juggling act
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  to be clear, because,
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  um, I would imagine that
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  any of those roles could be on the all
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  consuming side of things. But to
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  me when you describe that, that sounds like a really
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  good combination
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  of your skill sets and gifts
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  and like the experience that you would bring to the
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  table. So I hope it
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  feels like really life giving to
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  be moving into that combination of
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  things.
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  >> Loren: I mean, nerve wracking for sure,
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  but life giving in many ways, even when
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  I, even when it is some orientation at the hospital
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  with the uh, staff chaplain, it's
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  funny like
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  I talked to him about his job and
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  he's like, do you want, do you want a similar M role? I'm like,
• 4:51
  not really. I mean the kind of
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  person I am, like, the thought of like having a 9 to 5 just
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  doing the same monotony is,
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  is not really my jam. But also
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  like, I mean, I just had an experience
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  yesterday or the day before outside a
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  hospital where I had this like mini pastoral care
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  moment. And it was just so profound. And
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  like we text a little bit about
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  this, right Martha? Or at least exchange I think on
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  socials about that. Like there's something
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  so profound and holy about
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  um, you know, pastoral care moments. Mhm. It's
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  almost like addicting I think, to me.
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  >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. And I think like I
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  have a variety of friends who
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  have transitioned from, you know,
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  leading churches into other kinds of
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  ministries and expressions of ministry. And
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  it is like so important to
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  look beyond the language because,
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  um, like if God is calling you
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  to ministry, ministry
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  appears.
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  >> Loren: Yeah, yeah.
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  >> Martha Tatarnic: You don't need the labels.
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  >> Loren: I'm wondering this, Martha, what are your thoughts on this? Because I've been
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  thinking about this lately. It seems
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  like at the 5 or 10 year mark
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  for pastors,
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  a lot of folks, I don't know, it seems like
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  for men especially around like 40,
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  me, a few others I've seen, I don't Know if it's like up,
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  uh, for your neck of the woods. But it seems like
• 6:27
  pastors, like, they either like
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  drop out the ministry entirely.
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  They go to work for like, sort of like what I'm doing,
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  like a parachurch ministry, nonprofit,
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  whatever word you want to use, or they just
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  like keep going. Like, what have you seen?
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  I'm curious.
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  >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. Um, I mean, certainly
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  men and women of all
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  ages, like the dropout
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  rate is significant,
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  you know, Like, I think,
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  I think in the cohort ahead of
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  my husband, so he was ordained like a year
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  and a half ahead of me and the
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  cohort before him, like
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  with like by the time I was
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  in ministry, like none of them were left.
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  Like all of them had just
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  realized that it wasn't for
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  them. Um, and
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  lots of statistics around the dropout
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  rates through Covid and since COVID
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  Um, but at the same time, I have heard
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  lots of people kind of name
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  that post 40 into your
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  50s ministry zone, which I'm
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  just in now as
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  like being quite
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  fruitful. Um, mhm.
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  If you stay, you
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  know. Um, and
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  it definitely is a different,
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  uh, there are just like different possibilities that
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  open up when you're not
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  in the mode of trying to establish yourself, improve
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  yourself. And I sure found like in my
• 8:16
  20s and early 30s, like
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  the need to prove that I
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  deserve to be there was.
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  >> Loren: Mhm.
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  >> Martha Tatarnic: It was really high. And
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  I think there were kind of all sorts of ways in which I
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  act like, acted like such a. Know it all. I don't know
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  how people could stand being around me,
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  honestly.
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  >> Loren: But same. Yeah, yeah.
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  >> Martha Tatarnic: Um, so it's nice to be able
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  to let that go a little bit
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  and lean into all the things you don't know.
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  >> Loren: Yeah, I'm wondering too. I'm thinking back
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  to one of my way past
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  guests, Ferguson and Packard, who talked
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  about, I think it was in their book about
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  this need for like different
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  or I guess I think as they described it, it was like this idea that like,
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  culturally, like the only way to become like a faith
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  leader is through like traditional
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  parish ordination. And it's like a,
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  uh, it's like a situation that
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  I've recognized even right now.
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  Like I. There's like this Christian
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  nonprofit forming in my neck of the woods that's
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  really based on like a social service type
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  model, you know, sprinkled in with a
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  faith foundation. But
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  they're like, what do we call you? As
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  Loren,
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  former pastor. So I think in some ways that's
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  why I've liked having this chaplain role, because I can
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  say, hey, I still have Some clergy status.
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  How else do you define yourself as a clergy or
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  faith leader when you don't have that? Pastor of
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  XYZ Church?
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  >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, yeah,
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  I think it is
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  such a thing. And it's a thing that we're going to have
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  to figure out more and more because.
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  >> Loren: Mhm.
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  >> Martha Tatarnic: Like there are just going to be so many more non
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  traditional forms of ministry and
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  we're going to have people come out of seminaries
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  who are not going to lead churches. So
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  something for us to uh. I think
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  the language has got to evolve a little bit.
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  >> Loren: Yeah.
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  >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah.
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  So any other big updates
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  about uh, I guess that is probably
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  all consuming at the moment. Getting
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  your feet wet in the new uh,
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  configuration.
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  >> Loren: Yeah, I guess I should tease this. Right. So we were
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  just talking about it like Martha and I are planning
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  to connect in person in June I
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  think. So I'm excited about that.
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  Um, looking forward to taking a trip with my wife
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  and we'll connect in person as part of
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  that.
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  >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I think that it is long overdue.
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  Um, you know,
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  we've uh, been working together on this
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  for quite a while now and it's a
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  passion project for both of us. Um,
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  and we have never seen one another
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  in three dimensions, so.
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  >> Loren: Right.
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  >> Martha Tatarnic: It's going to be great. And you know, my
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  husband is from Niagara. Um,
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  he is excited to show you
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  around. Um, there's some great
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  wineries and lots of
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  local history and um, hopefully the
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  weather will be good and it's going to be,
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  it's going to be a lot of fun and I'm going to be on sabbatical at
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  that time.
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  >> Loren: You can party.
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  >> Martha Tatarnic: I can party, yeah. Um, I'm
• 11:56
  planning on really living it up on Saturday nights
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  through the coming months.
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  >> Loren: Um, I will say that's one thing I don't
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  miss about church
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  ministry is now on Saturdays I'm always
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  wanting to text my friends and be like, oh, I maybe shouldn't because
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  they're trying to get in the zone for Sunday.
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  >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I always tell um,
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  people that when I retire I'm going to be a
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  Saturday party animal. Yeah, that's like my
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  goal. Yeah.
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  Okay.
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  Well, I, um, think it
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  would be helpful from my perspective and I'm guessing
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  from our Canadian listeners to
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  just get a bit of an
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  American perspective on how
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  the pretty
• 12:47
  significant deterioration of relationship between
• 12:50
  our countries is being perceived and
• 12:53
  talked about from over
• 12:55
  there. Um, and certainly I can share
• 12:58
  with you some of what's going on here.
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  But uh, you know, you
• 13:04
  elected a new president in November.
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  Like how, how is
• 13:10
  the political landscape shaking down since
• 13:13
  then, just generally.
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  >> Loren: Well, let me first start with something
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  light hearted because this was what, a month ago now,
• 13:20
  right? The. The NHL Four
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  nations hockey tournament.
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  >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah.
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  >> Loren: And oh my goodness, that was so much fun. As
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  a sports guy who loves, really
• 13:32
  enjoys like watching a game where I really don't
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  have a real strong dog in the
• 13:38
  fight, but also like, the game's got some juice to it, to use
• 13:41
  a metaphor. And my goodness, the USA
• 13:44
  Canada games had some juice to it. So I
• 13:46
  owe Martha and adult
• 13:49
  beverage when we connect in June because
• 13:52
  we put a friendly bet on
• 13:55
  the USA Canada what championship game. M. I
• 13:58
  think it was. So that was, my
• 14:01
  goodness, from a sporting perspective, a lot of fun just to kind
• 14:04
  of see that juice and see those players play so
• 14:07
  hard. You know, from a more serious perspective, I think it's
• 14:10
  been kind of heartbreaking in
• 14:12
  disorienting all the things you want to say
• 14:16
  to see.
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  I mean, I think, just think, uh, you know, I think
• 14:22
  about we're neighbors
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  and I'm sure
• 14:27
  like many Canadians and
• 14:30
  Americans, we know people
• 14:32
  from each other's nation
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  and I think it's. It's sad to see
• 14:39
  this unnecessary, uh,
• 14:43
  unhelpful. I mean, whatever language you want to
• 14:46
  use that's succumb and
• 14:49
  for whatever reason, there doesn't seem to be,
• 14:52
  I don't know, uh, I'm at
• 14:55
  a loss for words, I guess.
• 14:56
  >> Martha Tatarnic: I guess. Well,
• 14:59
  it's interesting to hear you say that and I appreciate
• 15:03
  the emotion of what you're saying as well.
• 15:06
  I read a New Yorker article, I think it was
• 15:09
  last week that said, you know, like, Americans
• 15:11
  don't particularly think about Canadians
• 15:14
  except when they don't like an election
• 15:17
  outcome and then they talk about moving to Canada.
• 15:21
  Uh, but it's different in
• 15:24
  Canada. I mean, in Canada we do think about
• 15:27
  our American neighbors all the time. And it's not just
• 15:30
  because, like, we're living next to the
• 15:33
  world's biggest superpower.
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  It's also because, like, we're constantly consuming
• 15:39
  American media and American music and
• 15:42
  American television and
• 15:44
  um, American products.
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  Like, we, um, you know, the whole
• 15:50
  world consumes so much of
• 15:53
  American, um, culture.
• 15:56
  Right. And then we're living right next
• 15:59
  door to the U.S.
• 16:02
  um, as you say,
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  like, you know, I have family who
• 16:07
  live in the States, I have colleagues who live
• 16:10
  in the States. I have people in my
• 16:13
  congregation who are American.
• 16:16
  Um, we have enjoyed this
• 16:19
  relationship with America that
• 16:22
  maybe hasn't been completely like,
• 16:24
  balanced. Again, like, we know we're a
• 16:27
  small country population, uh,
• 16:29
  wise and economically compared to the
• 16:32
  States, but it has
• 16:35
  Evolved as a very,
• 16:37
  like, intertwined,
• 16:39
  interconnected
• 16:41
  relationship. And it
• 16:44
  feels personal. Like, it
• 16:47
  feels personal, um,
• 16:51
  to have it suddenly so
• 16:53
  severely compromised. Like, I would really liken it
• 16:56
  to a divorce. You know, it's like we're trying
• 16:59
  to, like,
• 17:01
  separate into two separate
• 17:04
  households. We're trying to,
• 17:06
  um. Like, what, uh, was the.
• 17:09
  What was the Gwyneth Paltrow,
• 17:12
  um, strategic uncoupling or.
• 17:15
  >> Loren: Yeah, something.
• 17:17
  >> Martha Tatarnic: It wasn't strategic. It was conscious
• 17:19
  uncoupling. M. But, like,
• 17:22
  it also hurts. Like, it,
• 17:25
  uh, Obviously there's like just tons
• 17:27
  of, um, worry
• 17:30
  economically. And that goes for every
• 17:33
  single person on the planet right now with the
• 17:36
  stock markets going up and down and
• 17:38
  threats of recession and, you know, even talk of
• 17:41
  like a depression, like this kind of being like
• 17:44
  the next major depression.
• 17:46
  >> Loren: That's where things get really scary.
• 17:48
  >> Martha Tatarnic: They get really scary. Yeah.
• 17:51
  Um, and yet
• 17:54
  at the same time, like, it's also
• 17:57
  just that profound
• 18:00
  hurt of like, we
• 18:02
  thought that we were in this together.
• 18:05
  And now,
• 18:08
  like our politicians, we're in the middle of
• 18:11
  an election. We're electing a new prime
• 18:14
  minister at the end of this month.
• 18:16
  And, um, you know,
• 18:19
  the ballot box question has now become
• 18:22
  like, tariffs and Trump.
• 18:25
  And, uh, our
• 18:29
  leaders who are running for prime minister, most of
• 18:31
  them are kind of saying, like, things will never be the same.
• 18:35
  That's terrible.
• 18:37
  >> Loren: Yeah.
• 18:40
  >> Martha Tatarnic: And it's such an unforced error. Like, there's
• 18:43
  no reason for it. Like, we
• 18:46
  had a good relationship
• 18:49
  and, you know,
• 18:51
  I. I also very much enjoyed
• 18:54
  our little wager over the hockey game.
• 18:57
  And I really love a
• 19:00
  sports bandwagon that I can climb on when things
• 19:03
  get exciting. I'm not like a year round
• 19:06
  sports fan, but I can get really into a game. But I will
• 19:09
  tell you, like, it felt like we had a
• 19:12
  real, um,
• 19:14
  like, dog in that fight. Like, yeah,
• 19:17
  it, like the stakes were very high in Canada
• 19:20
  because, like, we needed a morale boost. Just
• 19:23
  like, has felt like we have been,
• 19:27
  um, bullied for no
• 19:30
  reason by the people we
• 19:32
  thought were our friends and
• 19:35
  partners.
• 19:36
  >> Loren: Yeah. It's interesting
• 19:39
  how you share that perspective
• 19:41
  as a Canadian, because I think it speaks
• 19:44
  to something those of us in
• 19:47
  the United States are so unaware of.
• 19:50
  And that's our kind of cultural, to
• 19:53
  use a big word, hegemony. Right.
• 19:56
  Yeah, Cultural dominance. Like, it's just like the water we're
• 19:59
  swimming in. So we don't think about, like, how much of the
• 20:02
  world is impacted by our
• 20:04
  media and our economics and our soft power,
• 20:07
  so to speak. And
• 20:10
  it does, even beyond the
• 20:13
  political. I can't Help but think
• 20:17
  even to.
• 20:20
  Even to church and Christianity. Like, I wonder
• 20:23
  what will be like the impact
• 20:27
  in church world, like
• 20:32
  the correlation or collaboration or now
• 20:35
  lack thereof. Perhaps because
• 20:39
  there's such US Dominance in
• 20:43
  the culture, worldwide culture. What do you
• 20:46
  think?
• 20:49
  >> Martha Tatarnic: I mean, I have never
• 20:52
  seen anything like it in
• 20:55
  Canada. And
• 20:57
  if there is a silver lining in all of
• 21:01
  this, it is the
• 21:04
  exceptional sort of
• 21:07
  intentional investment in what it is to be
• 21:10
  Canadian in a way that I have never
• 21:13
  experienced in my lifetime. I mean, Canadians
• 21:16
  are like, famously
• 21:19
  sort of apologetic and that goes
• 21:22
  for like, just our
• 21:25
  basic identity. Like, we can just kind of be
• 21:27
  apologetic about not being
• 21:30
  American or like. Or not being as big
• 21:33
  as America or as influential or whatever.
• 21:36
  And suddenly like, there's just such an
• 21:39
  investment in Canadian
• 21:41
  content and supporting Canadian business
• 21:44
  and Canadian products and Canadian
• 21:47
  storytelling and Canadian music
• 21:50
  and, um, just like
• 21:53
  re evaluating how much
• 21:56
  good there actually is here in a way that
• 21:59
  is very easy to,
• 22:03
  um, not think about
• 22:05
  because again, we just sort
• 22:08
  of. It's the water we swim in too, that you
• 22:10
  turn on Netflix and you watch
• 22:13
  American programming. Like, it's,
• 22:16
  um. Like I watch American
• 22:19
  reality shows, reality TV
• 22:22
  shows. I don't watch a ton of
• 22:25
  Canadian content, but
• 22:28
  that like,
• 22:32
  clarity, um, around just, okay, if
• 22:35
  we care about being a sovereign nation, then
• 22:37
  let's act like it. And I,
• 22:41
  I imagine that to maybe a
• 22:43
  lesser degree that's going on all around the world
• 22:47
  because, yeah, um,
• 22:49
  suddenly everybody's impacted by
• 22:53
  tariff announcements and
• 22:55
  um, a sense of like, nobody
• 22:58
  particularly being off the hook, certainly
• 23:01
  for more than a few days at a time. So.
• 23:03
  Yeah, um,
• 23:06
  I.
• 23:09
  >> Loren: Sorry, I was. Sorry to cut you off. I was just going to
• 23:11
  say I. I think it's
• 23:14
  interesting a. Like, there's
• 23:17
  similar, like, it thinks.
• 23:20
  To me, I think of like the.
• 23:23
  There's not so much boycotting of certain companies,
• 23:26
  although certainly Tesla,
• 23:30
  their numbers are suffering because
• 23:32
  of the radioactivity around Musk.
• 23:36
  For good reason, if I can be frank.
• 23:38
  Um, but it does seem like a
• 23:40
  good
• 23:43
  step forward to think, what can I control?
• 23:46
  I can control where my dollars go
• 23:49
  or my finances go or where I'm investing my time and
• 23:51
  resources. I'm also thinking, Martha, and I think
• 23:54
  this is especially true, at least in some of
• 23:57
  the things that I've seen. Like, I loved that clip. I
• 24:00
  think it was you sent me or I saw of like Carney
• 24:03
  and who's the. Who's the.
• 24:06
  Mike Myers, right? Like, yeah, great.
• 24:09
  Like, good, good,
• 24:11
  good club propaganda commercial.
• 24:15
  But of like, there's kind of this theory that
• 24:18
  like, people don't have
• 24:20
  any values other than money. Like, I
• 24:23
  think that's like I was listening to another non
• 24:26
  religious podcast the other
• 24:28
  day and saying like in
• 24:31
  America, like the, the number one value is people's
• 24:34
  economics, their, their dollars. Like what's gonna.
• 24:37
  Like that's why the swing voters voted for Trump because
• 24:40
  they thought like, he's gonna impact my wallet
• 24:42
  the most financially.
• 24:44
  >> Martha Tatarnic: Well, they were right. Like he certainly is
• 24:47
  impacting their wallet, but maybe not in the way
• 24:50
  they expected.
• 24:52
  >> Loren: Oh my gosh, Martha with a
• 24:54
  burn. Um,
• 24:58
  but Martha, you're demonstrating like
• 25:01
  people have other values. Like
• 25:03
  I mean, Greenland, right? Like that's a
• 25:06
  whole thing similar like, oh, US wants to take over
• 25:09
  Greenland and Greens. Like, no, no thanks, we're
• 25:12
  good. You're talking about it yourself. Like this
• 25:15
  kind of like pride of, this national
• 25:18
  pride of like that goes beyond like dollars and
• 25:20
  cents. And I feel like if I can
• 25:24
  go philosophical here, that's, I think the
• 25:27
  biggest problem, I think in
• 25:30
  America is several people point out
• 25:32
  like the number one
• 25:35
  moniker or identification thing
• 25:38
  people say about themselves in America is based on their
• 25:41
  political ideology. Like I'm a Democrat first, I'm
• 25:44
  a Republican first. I'm a progressive first. To
• 25:46
  me when I talk, what's my number one
• 25:49
  moniker? Like I'm a Christian, I'm a father, I'm a husband,
• 25:53
  not necessarily in that order, but you know, like my
• 25:55
  political ideology. I would not put that
• 25:59
  gosh in the top five, top ten.
• 26:02
  So do you think like that's a big cultural
• 26:06
  missing. Not missing point. But
• 26:10
  what am I trying to say?
• 26:12
  Something certain leaders in my nation are not
• 26:15
  accounting for
• 26:18
  is that people have
• 26:22
  a value other than just
• 26:25
  money as their number one. Um, their value
• 26:27
  of either money or their political ideology
• 26:31
  as like their number one identity. Like you mentioned,
• 26:34
  for Canadians, like people are rallying around
• 26:36
  their national pride. Right?
• 26:38
  >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, yeah, I think, I mean the sense
• 26:41
  in Canada, and
• 26:44
  again like this is our sense. I'm sure
• 26:47
  that the reporting is quite different
• 26:49
  there. But the sense in Canada is
• 26:52
  that the tariff,
• 26:56
  the uh, trade war was initiated
• 26:58
  legitimately with the hope
• 27:01
  that Canada would
• 27:04
  succumb to economic pressure and become
• 27:07
  the 51st state. Because Canada
• 27:10
  is extremely rich in very
• 27:12
  valuable natural resources
• 27:15
  and critical minerals that are going
• 27:18
  to become ever more essential in
• 27:21
  the years ahead. Um, that like
• 27:24
  the, the talk of the 51st state
• 27:27
  and the, our prime minister
• 27:30
  becoming a governor, um, that
• 27:33
  that was more than just sort of like
• 27:35
  needling, that um, that there
• 27:39
  was a hope that
• 27:41
  um, that this would just, we would
• 27:43
  fold. Right.
• 27:44
  >> Loren: And whenever there's like, oh, I'M just joking kind
• 27:47
  of language. There's always some truth behind it.
• 27:50
  >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, yeah. And,
• 27:53
  like, the narrative in Canada
• 27:56
  anyway is that, like, don't
• 27:58
  underestimate us. Like,
• 28:01
  um, our national hashtag at the moment is
• 28:04
  elbows up. And, like, that's a
• 28:07
  hockey term, as I understand it. Yeah.
• 28:09
  >> Loren: Explain that for our non Canadian listeners.
• 28:11
  >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, well, and I kind of have to explain it
• 28:14
  as a non hockey person
• 28:16
  to people because I had to
• 28:19
  look it up. But, like, it is a hockey term of,
• 28:22
  like, sort of defiance. Uh,
• 28:26
  right. Like, of
• 28:28
  aggression. Um, and, like,
• 28:31
  you're gonna come at us, like, elbows up.
• 28:34
  Like, we're not buckling. We're not, as you
• 28:37
  said, like, okay, you can apply
• 28:40
  financial pressure, but don't expect that we're
• 28:43
  gonna just,
• 28:45
  like, fold into the United
• 28:48
  States. We do actually have a country
• 28:51
  and an identity that we care profoundly.
• 28:54
  And it has been. I would not,
• 28:58
  by any means, say that any of this is
• 29:01
  good, but it is an upside
• 29:03
  for Canada to just be really clear about,
• 29:07
  um, feeling good about being
• 29:09
  Canadian.
• 29:10
  >> Loren: Right, right.
• 29:13
  >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah.
• 29:16
  I'm interested in
• 29:19
  what get said in
• 29:21
  pulpits, especially from
• 29:24
  mainline progressive
• 29:26
  Christians. Obviously, there
• 29:29
  was the really big moment of Bishop
• 29:32
  Marianne Buddy. I think her last name
• 29:35
  is pronounced Buddy, um,
• 29:37
  speaking like truth to power. And I thought
• 29:40
  in such a gracious way.
• 29:43
  Um, just calling for mercy.
• 29:46
  Uh,
• 29:49
  I have had a couple of
• 29:51
  sermons here at St. George's and my colleague
• 29:54
  Tom has had some sermons as
• 29:56
  well. I always run through my sermon with
• 29:59
  my son before I preach on a Sunday
• 30:02
  morning, and twice he has
• 30:05
  reacted to the sermon by saying,
• 30:07
  uh, like, are you sure that you want
• 30:10
  to be that political? And
• 30:13
  to me, I don't think I'm being political. I think I'm
• 30:16
  speaking to, like,
• 30:19
  people's anxieties and
• 30:22
  what people are talking about and worrying
• 30:25
  about and caring about right now. Like, I'm not trying to
• 30:28
  throw down the gauntlet politically. I'm just trying to
• 30:31
  speak to what I'm hearing and
• 30:34
  people are feeling.
• 30:38
  Um, but, like, it does
• 30:41
  end up with sermons
• 30:43
  that talk about the realities
• 30:46
  of Trump and
• 30:49
  U.S. canada relations and
• 30:51
  stuff. Like,
• 30:54
  is there similar messaging
• 30:57
  happening in American pulpits?
• 31:02
  >> Loren: I think when I was talking about Bishop
• 31:05
  Buddy's sermon with my friends
• 31:08
  who are all actively preaching regularly,
• 31:13
  they appreciated what she had to say, but
• 31:15
  were also thinking, like, boy, it might be
• 31:18
  harder
• 31:21
  depending, uh, on the polity. Right. Like, the congregational polity, for
• 31:24
  instance, in a lot of denominations or a few
• 31:27
  denominations in the States is such, like, if you
• 31:30
  anger the Karnagons, they can run you out of town.
• 31:33
  So there's some
• 31:35
  hesitancy about this
• 31:38
  pressure to be like, oh, we should all be, like Bishop Buddy and, like, speak
• 31:41
  truth to power, because, like,
• 31:44
  some of us could lose our jobs. That being said, I think
• 31:47
  there's a big admiration
• 31:50
  for her and what she said and just the
• 31:53
  guts to do that. And I
• 31:55
  think. I think that
• 31:58
  line of preaching is really
• 32:00
  valuable. I'm thinking, again, I'm not preaching
• 32:03
  regularly, but even in the church I
• 32:05
  attend. A couple weeks ago, a
• 32:08
  sermon was given about based on psalms.
• 32:11
  I can't remember the psalm
• 32:14
  specifically. And I think the church that I
• 32:16
  would attend would
• 32:19
  broadly be looked at as more purplish,
• 32:22
  if that makes sense. Like, kind of middle has
• 32:25
  Republicans, Democrats,
• 32:28
  but, like, the. The guy who's speaking
• 32:31
  gave a sermon, and he made the point, like,
• 32:34
  leaders, whether
• 32:37
  they're church leaders, whether political leaders, like, you have to care about
• 32:40
  people. And that seems like a pretty
• 32:43
  basic sermon, but also
• 32:46
  it's kind of political these days. You can't not
• 32:49
  care about individuals. And I
• 32:52
  think, similarly, Bishop Buddy
• 32:54
  said, have mercy on these people. I think
• 32:57
  that's an approach because.
• 33:00
  I don't know. I mean, like, let's be honest, too, about this,
• 33:03
  Martha. Like, I don't know if you've seen this. Like, there's this big
• 33:06
  movement, uh, amongst some
• 33:08
  conservative Christians about, like, saying empathy is
• 33:11
  a sin, which is just preposterous to me,
• 33:14
  so.
• 33:15
  >> Martha Tatarnic: Oh, my gosh.
• 33:16
  >> Loren: Yeah. Even there, there's some pushback about, like,
• 33:24
  it's troubling. I mean, it is. I mean,
• 33:27
  I, uh, think that's what's most troubling, is just how
• 33:31
  callousness and carelessness has been.
• 33:37
  Has become, like, the rule of the day. I think that's
• 33:40
  what's most heartbreaking to me.
• 33:43
  >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. It seems like we're setting the bar
• 33:46
  extremely low
• 33:49
  just to say, like, okay, mercy is a
• 33:52
  gospel quality.
• 33:55
  That seems like, uh, a bar that we
• 33:57
  should all be able to get across.
• 34:00
  Right. Like, that's really
• 34:03
  worrisome if that is considered,
• 34:06
  um, too
• 34:09
  divisive.
• 34:10
  >> Loren: Yeah.
• 34:12
  >> Martha Tatarnic: We were having a conversation at parish
• 34:15
  council about sending a letter
• 34:18
  of support to Bishop Buddy just to
• 34:21
  say, you know, we're grateful for your
• 34:24
  words and we're praying for you
• 34:27
  in, like, any pushback that you're
• 34:30
  experiencing. And it was, you know, a
• 34:33
  really nice letter that,
• 34:35
  uh, somebody on our ministry team crafted,
• 34:38
  and we just wanted to be able to sign it as a
• 34:41
  parish council. And there were some
• 34:43
  people just, like, a little concerned. Like, we
• 34:46
  don't want to be divisive. We don't want people to feel like if
• 34:49
  they have a different view politically, that they
• 34:52
  can't, um, that
• 34:54
  they're kind of being ostracized or
• 34:58
  whatever. And we felt like
• 35:00
  the letter was not framed in a way that was
• 35:03
  divisive, that it was just kind of speaking
• 35:06
  to basic core gospel values.
• 35:08
  And one of the
• 35:11
  elders of our congregation,
• 35:13
  um, you know, he just
• 35:16
  said like, this is a time
• 35:19
  for courage and
• 35:21
  like all of us need to
• 35:25
  um, get ready to use our
• 35:27
  voices to, to speak up
• 35:30
  for what we know is right.
• 35:33
  And everybody signed the
• 35:36
  letter, you know, like it was
• 35:39
  quite, um, quite stirring.
• 35:42
  But it's not
• 35:45
  to diminish,
• 35:47
  um, that
• 35:50
  it can feel really complicated
• 35:53
  trying to navigate that.
• 35:55
  >> Loren: Yeah. And I suppose speaking to some of those shared values
• 35:58
  can be helpful. Like I'm thinking like my
• 36:01
  lucky representative who I disagree with
• 36:04
  on many points, to be vague.
• 36:08
  I've been trying to communicate with him,
• 36:11
  you know, when I send him a letter or make a phone
• 36:14
  call. Seems like every week or every couple
• 36:17
  weeks. Right. Like
• 36:20
  on his social media bios, like the
• 36:22
  first thing it says, like Christian
• 36:26
  interest. I'll just be like, listen,
• 36:30
  there's three things we should all be to agree on.
• 36:34
  Humans are made in the image of God. Christ
• 36:37
  died for all. God loves all.
• 36:40
  We can agree on that. Can we
• 36:44
  treat our fellow human beings,
• 36:46
  especially if you claim to be a Christian from
• 36:50
  that working foundation.
• 36:52
  >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, that seems like just
• 36:55
  such, ah, an important,
• 37:00
  like common ground to claim.
• 37:02
  >> Loren: Mhm.
• 37:03
  >> Martha Tatarnic: And you said you haven't gotten any response.
• 37:06
  >> Loren: I mean, you know, just
• 37:09
  the kind of standard form letter response
• 37:11
  emails. So we'll see. I mean, I,
• 37:15
  it's complicated, right? It's, who
• 37:18
  knows. And because I certainly, I don't want
• 37:21
  to, I feel like my perspective
• 37:24
  is that any kind of real harsh thing is just gonna be
• 37:26
  like tuned out, you
• 37:29
  know, as this, the classic, like, oh, there's just some angry
• 37:32
  liberal. I know, let's ignore him.
• 37:35
  So I'm thinking like, what's a way that I can communicate in a way
• 37:38
  that speaks in a way
• 37:40
  that he'll listen, but also like
• 37:44
  won't just be turned out as
• 37:47
  liberal talking points, so to speak.
• 37:50
  >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I know. Um, I think
• 37:53
  that's really important, like when we're
• 37:56
  talking across political divides is
• 37:59
  trying to establish that common ground and
• 38:02
  you know, in lots of ways, like, I think
• 38:05
  that like
• 38:08
  pastors are uniquely
• 38:11
  positioned to theoretically be able to do
• 38:13
  that because, you know, we're constantly
• 38:16
  speaking to a uh, very mixed crowd
• 38:19
  of people who come from a lot of different backgrounds
• 38:22
  and a Lot of different perspectives and
• 38:25
  ages and stages and affiliations and so on.
• 38:28
  And yeah, you want to
• 38:31
  lay claim to. Okay, here are the things
• 38:34
  that unite us rather than divide us.
• 38:38
  Um,
• 38:41
  but then
• 38:44
  it does feel like some of those basics
• 38:47
  are maybe a step too far at the moment.
• 38:51
  >> Loren: Yeah. Which is very sad.
• 38:53
  >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah.
• 38:56
  Um, I've been
• 38:59
  obviously giving a lot of
• 39:01
  thought to how
• 39:04
  to minister to people in times
• 39:07
  of such significant anxiety. And,
• 39:10
  and the anxiety is really high
• 39:13
  in Canada right now and I think it is in the States
• 39:16
  as well for lots of people.
• 39:18
  Um, and
• 39:21
  you know, in some ways
• 39:24
  I think that being in the midst
• 39:27
  of a crisis does
• 39:30
  give clarity of purpose.
• 39:33
  Like there is
• 39:35
  this sort of like Covid. Like there
• 39:38
  is this reality that we're all trying to
• 39:41
  navigate. And like, speaking to that
• 39:44
  is really important, whether it's from the pulpit
• 39:47
  or elsewhere.
• 39:49
  Um,
• 39:52
  one of the things that has been really important in
• 39:55
  my faith community right now is
• 39:58
  music. We, um,
• 40:01
  have like a Wednesday night service
• 40:05
  gathering once a month that
• 40:07
  uh, is sort of around like
• 40:10
  more popular expressions of music and a hot
• 40:13
  topic kind of thing. And so last week
• 40:16
  we had songs, uh, to celebrate Canada.
• 40:19
  And we picked a handful of songs that
• 40:22
  people, um, in our band who were putting the
• 40:25
  music together felt like really
• 40:27
  represented some great Canadian storytelling. And
• 40:30
  then from that we're now like planning a
• 40:33
  citywide great Canadian sing along just
• 40:36
  to bring people together to
• 40:39
  sing the most iconic
• 40:41
  Canadian songs. And that is
• 40:44
  not going to be a religious night, but it
• 40:47
  is so very much based in
• 40:50
  religious principles,
• 40:53
  um, of like
• 40:55
  building people up and coming together as a
• 40:58
  community in the midst of crisis and,
• 41:01
  um, looking for
• 41:04
  expressions of unity
• 41:06
  and clarity of telling our
• 41:09
  story and like choosing
• 41:12
  um, community rather than division. Like, I think
• 41:15
  that those are things that the church should
• 41:18
  be offering in times like this.
• 41:22
  Uh, like what kind of spiritual
• 41:24
  resources do you see people drawing on? Or
• 41:27
  like
• 41:31
  where do you think people are kind
• 41:34
  of getting their
• 41:36
  grounds, ground under them
• 41:39
  spiritually?
• 41:40
  >> Loren: That's a good question. I've been
• 41:43
  thinking about what I've been trying to do lately
• 41:46
  as I officiate high
• 41:49
  school sports. So
• 41:52
  high school lacrosse season right now. So
• 41:54
  every time the national anthem is played, I
• 41:57
  just try to pray.
• 41:59
  >> Martha Tatarnic: Hm.
• 41:59
  >> Loren: During the entire national anthem for our nation, for our
• 42:02
  leaders, for their hearts to be changed,
• 42:06
  those kind of things.
• 42:09
  I think getting back to
• 42:12
  what you were
• 42:15
  saying similarly about
• 42:19
  like, um, in Canada, people thinking about
• 42:21
  like, what do they value? What can they
• 42:24
  control? I think those are really good. Those are
• 42:27
  really good kind of foundational
• 42:31
  points to build from.
• 42:34
  And I'm trying to think about examples because I
• 42:37
  feel like, I think
• 42:40
  again, to get partisan here for a moment, like the
• 42:42
  Democrats in America have been floundering
• 42:45
  for two or three months, and I think there's still some
• 42:48
  kind of floundering. And it goes back to something
• 42:51
  you said. I think part of
• 42:54
  the problem, I think, with the Democratic messaging
• 42:57
  in the 2024 election was this idea, uh,
• 43:00
  of like, oh, let's just go back. We're
• 43:03
  just going to keep going back to normal.
• 43:06
  M and I think something that
• 43:09
  the current president has been able to take
• 43:12
  advantage of, I would say for ill,
• 43:15
  is this idea that especially since 2016.
• 43:18
  But, um, of course, since 2020, it's like
• 43:21
  there's no normal to go back to. Things have
• 43:23
  fundamentally changed. And I think that's the
• 43:26
  biggest problem and the biggest thing I want to see
• 43:29
  more from leaders in my
• 43:32
  nation from the other side is like, okay, it's not just that we're
• 43:35
  going to stop being terrible people
• 43:37
  and not care about human beings,
• 43:40
  but what are we going to be forward ourselves?
• 43:43
  So that's like the most. When I'm seeing
• 43:46
  things like that, that's what I'm most appreciative
• 43:49
  of,
• 43:51
  especially within the church of
• 43:54
  how are we defining ourselves
• 43:59
  in a positive light, talking about what we're, what
• 44:02
  we're about, what we're for, how we're contributing
• 44:05
  to our communities. Like, that's what I think
• 44:07
  really intrigues me and I hope to see more of. Because
• 44:10
  again, I think like you said, there's no going back to
• 44:13
  normal. Even if in
• 44:16
  two years in the states and the
• 44:19
  Congress changes, even in three
• 44:22
  years a new administration comes in,
• 44:25
  there's still going to be like, no, we're not going to just try to, Reese,
• 44:28
  press a reset button. So how can we live into
• 44:30
  our values going forward?
• 44:33
  >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I think that's super important. I
• 44:36
  think, like, in my
• 44:39
  calmest and most charitable frame
• 44:42
  of mind, um,
• 44:45
  like, I recognize that the
• 44:48
  polarization of opinion and
• 44:50
  politics that is very much
• 44:53
  happening in your neck of the woods in the States,
• 44:56
  but also happens here in Canada,
• 44:59
  like that there is a real
• 45:02
  need to, um, interrogate
• 45:05
  that and understand
• 45:08
  what the
• 45:11
  deep issues are that have left people
• 45:13
  feeling so disenfranchised that they
• 45:16
  are willing to take an
• 45:19
  extreme route. Right. So I think
• 45:22
  unless you take that seriously
• 45:25
  going forward, any leader is going
• 45:28
  to end up,
• 45:30
  um,
• 45:33
  end up
• 45:36
  maybe like just
• 45:39
  further amplifying those
• 45:41
  divisions. Right.
• 45:45
  >> Loren: I want to speak to this in a different way because I'm reading
• 45:48
  right now Nandra Root's new book Evangelism and the age of
• 45:51
  despair. And his, his big point, Spoiler alert. Is
• 45:54
  basically like, our, our culture
• 45:57
  is just incredibly sad. And
• 45:59
  he makes this really sort of shocking
• 46:02
  point that I'd never thought about. He's like, we're so sad
• 46:05
  and so disconnected that we have to pay people. Like, he's talking about,
• 46:08
  like, ehar e no better help.
• 46:11
  I don't know if that's being in Canada, but, uh, he's like, we're so
• 46:14
  sad and we're so disconnected that we can't find
• 46:17
  anybody to share in our sorrow other than paying
• 46:20
  someone, which is just
• 46:22
  heartbreaking. And I think, uh, like,
• 46:26
  I'm sparked by this, by what you said,
• 46:28
  Martha, about recognizing people's pain. Like, we've
• 46:31
  got to enter into people's sorrow, as Root
• 46:34
  would say it. And that's a profoundly
• 46:37
  spiritual, faithful act, I
• 46:39
  think.
• 46:40
  >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, yeah, it is.
• 46:43
  And like, we do have
• 46:45
  resources as people of faith for doing
• 46:48
  that, for talking about that.
• 46:53
  I think that I'm really gonna ponder
• 46:55
  that. And I'll need to read Nandra
• 46:58
  Root's new book too.
• 47:01
  Um, okay, so let's wrap up on a
• 47:04
  more lighthearted note.
• 47:05
  What are some non spiritual resources that are getting
• 47:08
  you through these days, Loren?
• 47:11
  >> Loren: I mean, I'm being very active,
• 47:14
  getting my steps in every day. Yeah,
• 47:17
  Walking the dogs. Like I
• 47:20
  said before we started recording, cleaning house a lot, keeping the
• 47:23
  house in order. Uh, I'm a big schedule
• 47:26
  person, so I am scheduling the heck out of my life
• 47:28
  now because it just makes me feel less
• 47:31
  scattered if I know what's coming up and
• 47:34
  what I'm doing. But I think, like,
• 47:36
  again, controlling what we can control.
• 47:41
  For me, I'm trying to control what I can control.
• 47:44
  Thinking about, again, what I really value in
• 47:47
  life. Part of my work
• 47:50
  decision was I want to see my kid more. I want to see my
• 47:53
  kids more. And two nights this week, I've
• 47:56
  walked to the park with my son to kick the soccer ball around
• 47:59
  for ten minutes.
• 48:01
  >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, uh, those are the things
• 48:03
  that you definitely want to be
• 48:05
  prioritizing. Yeah, I have, like,
• 48:08
  kind of similar resources
• 48:11
  that I draw on. Like a lot of
• 48:14
  running, a lot of walking.
• 48:16
  Um, I do not clean the house. But I was
• 48:19
  saying to you before we went on air that, uh, I
• 48:22
  do find myself puttering in the kitchen
• 48:25
  mostly. I mean, I do really enjoy,
• 48:28
  um, baking and cooking. Cause I like to
• 48:31
  eat so much. But I also like being able to
• 48:34
  putter in the kitchen and listen
• 48:36
  to podcast after podcast
• 48:39
  after podcast. And being in an
• 48:42
  election cycle right now, there's Just like
• 48:45
  such an embarrassment of riches of political
• 48:47
  podcasts to consume every day. So that,
• 48:50
  in a weird way, just helps me feel
• 48:53
  more centered about life
• 48:56
  to kind of listen to what
• 48:59
  smart people are saying about.
• 49:01
  >> Loren: Yeah.
• 49:01
  >> Martha Tatarnic: The political landscape.
• 49:03
  >> Loren: Yeah.
• 49:04
  >> Martha Tatarnic: Um, I'm really into watching
• 49:06
  Survivor these days with my son.
• 49:09
  And I think going back to what you said about,
• 49:12
  like, that hockey game last month, it
• 49:15
  is just fun to watch,
• 49:18
  like, people duking it out
• 49:21
  in a, uh, competition where the stakes
• 49:24
  are just about money. Like, it's not
• 49:26
  about money and being on
• 49:29
  tv. It's not about, like,
• 49:32
  destroying lives or, you
• 49:35
  know, upending the world order or anything.
• 49:38
  >> Loren: Yeah, just. Just that little thing.
• 49:40
  >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, just that little thing.
• 49:43
  Okay, I'm gonna ask.
• 49:44
  >> Loren: I've gotta ask for our. For our American
• 49:47
  listeners, like, what are some,
• 49:50
  like, classic Canadian songs that.
• 49:52
  I'm not a big music guy, but what are some
• 49:55
  classic Canadian songs? We could jam off on
• 49:58
  Spotify. Jam on. On Spotify?
• 50:01
  Or like that. What. What would you say?
• 50:05
  >> Martha Tatarnic: Well, I mean, there's obviously, like. There's
• 50:08
  obviously like, the big Canadian
• 50:11
  exports, like the ones who have
• 50:14
  become, like, international stars.
• 50:16
  So, you know, Joni Mitchell and Leonard
• 50:19
  Cohen and Sarah McLachlan and Shania
• 50:22
  Twain and Celine Dion and. And,
• 50:25
  um, kind of all of those
• 50:28
  really big, uh,
• 50:30
  internationally
• 50:33
  recognized, um, leaders
• 50:36
  in the music industry.
• 50:39
  Um, but if you want
• 50:42
  kind of more niche Canadiana, ah,
• 50:45
  then I would recommend listening to the Tragically
• 50:48
  Hip.
• 50:49
  >> Loren: The Tragically Hip. I think I've heard of them.
• 50:51
  >> Martha Tatarnic: The Tragically Hip. The, um,
• 50:54
  lead singer died a couple of years ago, but
• 50:57
  they are just, like, so
• 50:59
  famous for being,
• 51:03
  like, really kind of documenting,
• 51:06
  um, Canadian storytelling in.
• 51:09
  And like, they, uh. They're like my
• 51:12
  generation's kind of
• 51:14
  major band from the 1990s.
• 51:17
  Like, they were part of the whole alt rock,
• 51:20
  like,
• 51:21
  um, movement.
• 51:24
  Um, and like,
• 51:27
  Gordon Lightfoot would be like a generation before
• 51:29
  that. Again, somebody who just like, really,
• 51:32
  really documented Canadian storytelling
• 51:35
  and Canadiana.
• 51:37
  Um,
• 51:39
  um. You know, we've got lots
• 51:42
  of, like, Kathleen Edwards is such a
• 51:45
  great singer songwriter.
• 51:47
  Um,
• 51:50
  there's, um, a long
• 51:53
  list that I could give you of just great
• 51:56
  Canadian singer songwriters,
• 51:59
  uh, and bands and so on, but those
• 52:02
  would be the ones that are top of
• 52:05
  the list when we're talking about
• 52:07
  the stuff that,
• 52:10
  um, everybody in Canada would feel like
• 52:13
  they have a stake in some
• 52:16
  of those names.
• 52:18
  >> Loren: There's a band that I like to listen to
• 52:20
  occasionally. Metric.
• 52:21
  >> Martha Tatarnic: I think they're catching them. Um, my daughter and I are
• 52:24
  seeing them in May.
• 52:26
  >> Loren: Oh, wow. Okay.
• 52:27
  >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, we're really, really Big Metric fans.
• 52:30
  I wouldn't say that they're, um. I mean, they're
• 52:33
  extremely popular with.
• 52:35
  >> Loren: Mhm.
• 52:35
  >> Martha Tatarnic: Like a generation, but I
• 52:38
  wouldn't say that their songs are, like, kind of well
• 52:41
  known across the whole Canadian
• 52:44
  landscape. And my daughter was really surprised to even find out that
• 52:47
  they're Canadian. But they are Canadian and they're
• 52:50
  amazing. We're excited
• 52:53
  about Metric.
• 52:54
  >> Loren: Yeah.
• 52:54
  >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah.
• 52:56
  All right, well, shall we, um.
• 52:59
  I was thinking we should maybe pray for
• 53:02
  one another's countries and leaders
• 53:05
  as we wrap up the podcast today.
• 53:08
  So do you want me to lead off?
• 53:11
  >> Loren: Yeah, sure, sure.
• 53:12
  >> Martha Tatarnic: Okay. Let us pray.
• 53:16
  God of peace and guiding light, thank you
• 53:19
  for the gift of this
• 53:22
  conversation. Thank you for
• 53:25
  people who continue to show
• 53:28
  up to listen and talk
• 53:31
  and wrestle and discern,
• 53:34
  and thank you for
• 53:36
  opportunities and space to
• 53:39
  delve more deeply into the
• 53:42
  dynam dynamics of our lives. I pray
• 53:44
  for the United States, for their
• 53:47
  leaders, for their
• 53:49
  people, for
• 53:52
  peace and
• 53:56
  community and
• 53:59
  love to lead
• 54:02
  the way. I pray that the
• 54:05
  gospel qualities of mercy and
• 54:09
  respect for the dignity of every human being
• 54:12
  will prevail.
• 54:15
  And where there is
• 54:19
  division, I pray that you grant
• 54:22
  healing and unity.
• 54:25
  And where there is
• 54:28
  distress, I pray that you
• 54:31
  guide the way forward in ways
• 54:33
  that bring blessing and
• 54:36
  help and prosperity to everyone.
• 54:43
  >> Loren: Lord, I pray for the nation and
• 54:46
  people of Canada
• 54:48
  as we are in and they are feeling
• 54:51
  especially the turmoil and tumult of
• 54:54
  so much change and disruption
• 54:57
  in systems and
• 55:00
  patterns. I pray for their leadership,
• 55:02
  give them wisdom and discernment as they guide their
• 55:05
  country. I pray for their people, help them to make
• 55:08
  wise decisions as they especially
• 55:12
  choose for an upcoming election.
• 55:15
  I, uh, pray that you'd guide their hearts and minds
• 55:17
  to, to do justice and to love
• 55:20
  mercy and as Martha spoke to, to be gospel
• 55:23
  centered in their actions. I, uh,
• 55:26
  pray just for them to be good neighbors and, and
• 55:29
  similarly the United States people
• 55:32
  too. Thank you
• 55:34
  for the history of our two nations.
• 55:38
  Help us to recognize
• 55:41
  and repent of our failings
• 55:44
  and our faults,
• 55:48
  and
• 55:51
  to live and move forward in a
• 55:53
  more godly and
• 55:56
  just way. I pray.
• 56:01
  >> Martha Tatarnic: Amen.
• 56:02
  >> Loren: Amen.
• 56:03
  >> Martha Tatarnic: Well, Loren, I think that, uh,
• 56:06
  texting and emailing aside, the next
• 56:09
  time that we have like a fulsome, uh,
• 56:12
  conversation with one another is probably going to
• 56:15
  be in person.
• 56:16
  >> Loren: Could be. Yeah, yeah, it's coming up
• 56:19
  quick.
• 56:20
  >> Martha Tatarnic: It's coming up quick. And we can,
• 56:23
  um, let our future Christian
• 56:26
  community know about that. I'm sure that
• 56:29
  we'll have some pictures and updates
• 56:32
  to post on social media and
• 56:34
  that'll be exciting to look forward to.
• 56:37
  >> Loren: Yeah, yeah. Ah, absolutely.
• 56:39
  >> Martha Tatarnic: Okay, well, have a great rest of your day and
• 56:42
  may God's peace be with you.
• 56:44
  >> Loren: God's peace be with you as well.
• 56:48
  Okay. Foreign.
• 56:55
  >> Loren Richmond: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast.
• 56:58
  The Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate
• 57:01
  Media. We love to hear from our listeners with
• 57:04
  questions, comments and ideas for future
• 57:06
  episodes. Visit our website at, uh,
• 57:08
  future-christian.com and find the
• 57:11
  Connect with Us form at the bottom of the page to get in
• 57:14
  touch with with Martha or Loren. But before you go,
• 57:17
  do us a favor, subscribe to the POD to leave a
• 57:20
  review. It really helps us get this out to more
• 57:23
  people. Thanks and go in peace.