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🧖‍♀️ Steam, Sizzle and Sauna Science 🥵🥶 · DunkersPodcast

0:11
Today on The Dunker's podcast, we're turning up the heat.
0:14
Literally. Joining us is Ben Wright,
0:18
exercise Physiology lecturer from Oxford Brookes University
0:22
and Tom Co, founder of Porthpoweth Sauna on Abersox
0:26
Warren Beach. Ben brings the science behind
0:30
hot and cold exposure, the recovery and why your body loves
0:34
a little shock therapy. Tom and his partner Gabby, the
0:39
serf loving duo behind the sauna, bring the commercial
0:43
success to day is about warmth, Wellness and Welsh ingenuity all
0:49
rolled into one steamy seaside story.
0:52
It's the perfect mix of steam, science and sea spray, a chat
0:58
that warms the soul, chills the skin, and maybe even just makes
1:02
you book your next dunk and sauna before the episode's even
1:06
over. Welcome Ben and Tom to Dunker's
1:09
podcast. Thank you, Mark.
1:12
OK, thanks, Mark. So, Ben, tell us just a little
1:15
bit about why Oxford Brookes have actually taken this
1:20
challenge on. Well, this came from the back of
1:24
a piece I did for kind of our internal networks.
1:28
And this was to look at the physiological responses to both
1:34
heat and cold and to examine some of the purported health
1:38
benefits for both modalities. They've definitely risen in
1:43
popularity over the last few years in terms of how we can
1:48
expose our bodies to both hot and cold, the different
1:51
techniques, and also have an understanding of what we hear
1:56
regarding the benefits and does the research and does the
2:01
science actually match some of the purported claims for these
2:05
different types of modalities in both kind of recovery and
2:09
Wellness? Trends, OK.
2:12
And presumably they did meet match.
2:15
Or did they? Depends on what market you're
2:20
looking for. Right.
2:21
OK, Yeah. That's the classic scientific
2:24
response is it depends. But yeah, some of the claims
2:27
made do have evidence towards them, depending on the type of
2:32
modality we're looking at and the purported claim.
2:36
However, with any kind of research and study, there's
2:40
always much more that needs to be done.
2:42
Good, good science generally asks more questions and answers
2:45
that you get, and that tends to be the case for both of these
2:48
modes. But there is some quite good and
2:51
quite strong evidence now to show some of the the
2:54
improvements in health and and Wellness and also some of this
2:57
more psychological aspects of these recovery methods or
3:02
Wellness trends in in terms of improving affect and positive
3:05
mood states. OK, So it's not totally
3:08
transformational, but it is, it is moving, moving the pieces a
3:13
bit. It's making people more aware
3:15
presumably. And it's little things, I
3:19
remember all of them way back, they always said that if you
3:22
could use a sauna and hot and cold anyway, you could help cut
3:26
inflammation and and outputs like that.
3:30
So presumably those are quantifiable.
3:35
Yes, yeah, using kind of like venous blood sampling, you can
3:39
look at certain biomarkers within the body, both either pro
3:42
inflammatory or anti-inflammatory.
3:45
We can also measure things like Soto coins which are small
3:49
chemical messages which can activate either pro or
3:52
anti-inflammatory pathways. So so you can do that in
3:55
controlled laboratories and you can examine pre and post
3:59
differences in these measures depending on the experiment.
4:04
Is this in cold water immersion or is this in more heat
4:07
exposures like sauna use? Right.
4:10
OK. So as you say more answers than
4:13
more questions and answers that immediately come out.
4:16
So I'm going to go on to something a wee bit more
4:18
commercial because I'll certainly understand it a little
4:21
bit clearer. And that's the commercial play
4:24
for making saunas into a a business and a business that's
4:28
based on the beach. Tom, what's it like to actually,
4:31
we do it? We've all said, oh, wouldn't it
4:33
be great, but you're doing it. Yeah, yeah, It's been really
4:38
fun. It's all the new experience for
4:42
me, but yeah, it's been great. When you think about getting
4:47
down there nice and early, I suppose you get the same
4:50
experience when you're doing your dunking.
4:52
But getting there nice and early, lighting the fire, it's
4:57
yeah, great down that beach as well.
5:00
Yeah, it's nice when she when she's got because, but as an as
5:05
an engineer, it's not the not a normal sort of day-to-day thing
5:08
that you'd sort of take on board, is it?
5:11
No, no. So I suppose it all came around,
5:16
came about from, I tried an onset in Japan and this was a
5:24
long time ago now in about 2017, a friend and I were over there
5:28
and just fell in love with the experience.
5:31
And I just thought, how do we not do this in the UK?
5:35
How could you get something like this in the UK?
5:38
And it sort of took a while before we started to get the
5:43
ball rolling about actually implementing it because I didn't
5:46
really think that I could do it and.
5:49
What? Can I just stop you there?
5:51
What? What was it called?
5:52
A nonsen. An onsen on SO.
5:56
It's. A Japanese back house and, and
6:00
we went to one in Kyoto and the experience was like nothing that
6:05
I'd ever done. It was something that I thought,
6:07
this is what I'd like to do on a weekend when I've got some time
6:11
to myself. And so that's kind of where I
6:14
discovered it. And then, yeah, Fast forward a
6:18
little bit. We'd moved to Crewe on Pendulum
6:22
and I'd built a a workshop there and then we started running an
6:26
Airbnb business up there as well.
6:28
And I thought, well, a sauna would be a great offering to go
6:34
with the Airbnb business as well as me being able to use it.
6:38
And, but we were kind of thinking we might be moving
6:42
house here. So just by chance, I went to
6:47
Anglesey for the weekend and used the sauna of Sauna Bach on
6:52
the beach, which was built on a trailer.
6:55
And so I thought that's a brilliant idea.
6:58
That's what I should do. And I thought, right, well, I
7:03
can do this. I think I can do this.
7:05
And so obviously with the engineering background, doing
7:08
sort of materials research, that kind of thing, I had a, you
7:12
know, a big interest in anyway. And yeah, it sort of became a
7:16
passion project that I picked up last winter.
7:20
And yeah, we we started, started the business in Easter this
7:28
year. So it's still quite new and I'm
7:30
still learning. But yeah, it's brilliant.
7:34
So Ben, did you have you been exposed to literally and
7:38
figuratively have been exposed to what the Japanese are up to?
7:41
And did you know about these types of therapies or or?
7:46
Not necessarily specifically in Japan.
7:49
I'm guessing Tom, is that more like a steam room environment?
7:55
Yeah, yeah, well, the option was there and they did also have
8:01
saunas and they had really cold plunge pools and just a
8:05
relaxation area. It was like something that I've
8:09
never seen before. It was just so peaceful and like
8:15
felt like a proper reset, which I suppose is the whole, a whole
8:20
positive benefit of the experience.
8:23
I guess all sort of ties into the actual physiological effect
8:28
that you get from being exposed to the heating and the cold.
8:31
Which is a great Segway because the thing it one, the thing
8:34
about the dunking is that I remember from one of our very
8:37
first episodes, the high that you get from dunking has been
8:42
compared to that that you'd get from cocaine.
8:45
So it's like a legal high. So everyday that we go dunking,
8:49
people think that we're on something.
8:50
Well, you might actually believe that we are.
8:52
So what's actually happening inside your bed, inside your
8:55
body, Ben, when, when this is going on?
8:58
Just yeah. So physiologically, you're
9:01
subjecting the body to a form of kind of mild hypothermia, so an
9:05
increase in ambient temperature around you.
9:08
You can invoke that in different ways.
9:11
And I'm sure we'll discuss kind of the different types of sauna
9:14
as we as we go through. But effectively this kind of
9:17
heat stress or this stressor on the body starts the process of
9:21
helping and maintaining your thermoregulation.
9:24
We're quite tropical mammals. We like a core temperature
9:27
around 37° or so. So anything outside of that or
9:32
any kind of exposure to heat, we then have this kind of
9:34
neuroendocrine cardiovascular response that aims to keep our
9:39
body within homeostasis. So in terms of its normal
9:43
operating temperature point, what's happening generally is
9:47
the body's trying to cool down South.
9:49
First and foremost, the skin, there's the thermoreceptors
9:52
within the skin will heat up and these will, you know, go to
9:55
around 40° or so. And then exposure to heat for a
10:00
period of time. This could be through water,
10:02
through air. This will then increase your
10:05
core temperature. So this can rise to about 39°
10:08
and then potentially up to 40° or so as well.
10:12
At this point, the body's going to try and cool down and you're
10:16
going to get a redistribution of cardiac output.
10:19
So the amount of volume of blood that has been sent around the
10:22
body per minute, and this is controlled by the heart rate,
10:25
how often your heart's beating per minute or stroke volume, the
10:29
amount of blood ejected out the left ventricle per beat.
10:32
So that's the product of cardiac output.
10:34
And what we know is that subject to heat, you can have increases
10:39
of cardiac output to 5060% or so.
10:42
So significantly more blood is being ejected around the body.
10:46
You have redistribution of your blood, so certain areas of your
10:49
body where it isn't a necessary requirement to have blood flow
10:53
that can be shunted. So this is through the blood
10:56
vessels having the capacity to both vasodilate, so increasing
11:00
their diameter and vasoconstrict and effectively the body is
11:05
going to try and shunt blood to the skin and try to dissipate
11:09
heat through evaporation that way.
11:11
So the body is the body's working to balance itself all
11:15
the time. Whatever.
11:17
Whatever, whatever you're exposing it to, it's sort of
11:20
kicking back and saying, you know, I'm too hot, I'm too cold
11:23
and these are the. Absolutely, yes, yeah.
11:25
And that's kind of we, we refer to that as homeostasis.
11:28
So the normal, I think of it like the normal optimal
11:31
functioning of the body and the organs.
11:33
It's been happy in regulating all the processes that it should
11:36
be OK. And does that, does that
11:40
particularly affect your mood or is that metabolic?
11:44
And that is that, is that just physical or is it?
11:47
Is it, is it emotional as well? In terms of home, maintaining
11:52
homeostasis or? Yeah, yeah, in, in terms of
11:55
whether people crave more of, of the same, you know, can it
12:01
become a sort of a craving rather than just a nice to do?
12:06
Yeah. In terms of sorely use and
12:08
exposure to heat, there is some evidence to show these changes
12:12
in kind of positive feel and affect potential rewarding
12:17
exposures like dopamine release. So having that reward, and I
12:21
guess you might have discussed this when you look at cold water
12:24
immersion as well, that sense of kind of a reward that you've,
12:27
you've achieved something and overcome a challenge and that
12:30
can then become potentially addictive.
12:33
I'm not too well versed in kind of addictive.
12:38
Well. Reset an addiction.
12:40
That's that's another podcast. We'll do that again.
12:43
I think so, yeah. But I would assume that the the
12:46
benefit that you feel somewhat deliberation that you feel of of
12:50
taking your body through this small exposure to a stressor and
12:54
then not necessarily crave, but can make you be tempted to to
13:01
experience it again. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
13:04
Don't cold repeat. Yeah, yeah.
13:06
And Tom, I guess you've seen that yourself, have you?
13:09
People come out of the, the sauna and sort of thing.
13:13
I'm, you know, just I'm, I'm going to stay here for the rest
13:16
of the day. Yeah, yeah, I think, as you
13:20
probably well know. But it's so exhilarating when
13:23
you're in the cold water, isn't it?
13:25
It makes you. It does pump you up again.
13:29
That's how I feel when I'm doing it anyway.
13:31
But yeah, the feedback from everyone has been great because
13:36
everybody, I think that's come down is already of a health and
13:41
Wellness mindset. And so when they're on their
13:45
holidays or whether they're local or holiday and they've
13:49
come out and they've had this great experience, you know, it's
13:53
just been really nice to be around.
13:55
And tell me from, I don't know who who to ask this to, but it
14:00
are different types of sauna. Do they elicit different types
14:04
of response? For example, obviously smoked
14:08
wood fired saunas and you've got infrared saunas.
14:12
I guess there's other sorts. I mean, tell me about them.
14:16
Tell me about them. Yeah.
14:19
Well, again, I think the infrared ones do they just heat
14:23
up your. Skin.
14:26
I think that's how that works. How that works then?
14:29
Yes, yeah. That's infrared light that kind
14:32
of directly goes within onto the skin rather than heating the
14:36
ambient air around you. So these these typically can
14:40
operate at lower temperatures in 4060° or so and don't really
14:46
necessary or, or necessitate any humidity.
14:49
So I think often you'll see these referred to as like dry
14:51
saunas and using that infrared to heat the skin.
14:54
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think the kind of feedback
14:59
that you get from seeing the wood fired burning and the smell
15:03
of the wood when it's reacting to the of the steam in the room,
15:09
because I get so many people saying that they love the smell
15:12
of it. We don't tend to use any oils.
15:14
We try. I try to just keep it as natural
15:16
as possible. So yeah, it's yeah, that's.
15:20
That's quite evocative in itself, isn't it?
15:23
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
15:25
Yeah. And and from from a health
15:29
perspective, do does that do the smells and in fact the
15:34
environment, does that have a different impact on the body,
15:38
Ben, is that or is it all just down to the the extreme heat?
15:43
If we're talking about like the cardiovascular response you're
15:47
going to, you're going to have these kind of counter regulatory
15:51
processes irrespective of how the body's been heated.
15:55
Now there are other challenges. So if you are using like a steam
16:00
sauna, so temperatures compared to your traditional Finnish
16:04
saunas are going to be a little bit lower.
16:07
But because you're using steam to, to fill the ambient air
16:11
around you, this, this results in a really high percentage of
16:14
humidity. And that can evoke quite stress
16:18
on the body and, and maybe a mechanism to really ramp up core
16:22
temp. And this is because, you know,
16:24
one of our major ways in which we cool down is through
16:26
evaporation. So that's sending blood to the
16:29
surface, to the skin. We go nice and pink and we
16:31
sweat. And as that sweat evaporates, we
16:33
dissipate that heat. Now, if the conditions around us
16:37
are very humid, we're not going to be able to dissipate that
16:41
heat and evaporate that heat in the conditions around us.
16:43
And you know, this can be or can be quite dangerous in certain
16:47
circumstances where we would come into a, a condition called
16:53
uncompensatable heat stress where we cannot actually call
16:57
the core temperature down because our surrounding
16:59
environment is too warm. That can be dangerous.
17:03
But in terms of the responses that you're going to get from
17:05
the body, irrespective of the heat source, the body's going to
17:08
try and maintain core temp and skin temp through vasodilation,
17:13
sweating and and redistribution of blood flow.
17:15
So do I take from what you've just said that if you're going
17:18
to go into a steam room or a steam sauna or a steam bath, I
17:22
guess then you've really, it would be ideal to do that as a
17:27
second stage rather than the first stage.
17:29
Get used to sort of the the the cold, hot and cold through a dry
17:33
sauna before you go into steam. Is it?
17:37
I think that might be more tolerable if you're new to it.
17:40
Again, individual preference is going to be huge.
17:42
Some people may really like the kind of humid conditions that
17:47
you feel around you, kind of the air being feeling relatively
17:49
thick compared to your infrared soreness.
17:52
But yeah, that might be a useful starting point because some
17:55
people may not tolerate the ambient conditions being warm
17:58
around them better than your infrared or even your
18:03
traditional finished saunas. But again, the individual
18:05
preference will be be important as well.
18:08
You're using labels to to to obviously put water onto the the
18:13
sauna to increase that steam, aren't you, Tom?
18:17
Yeah, that's right. Yeah.
18:18
It's interesting what you were saying there, Ben, because I get
18:22
asked to quite often. Is it better to go in the sea
18:26
first and then come in start from a cold position or do you
18:30
get in the sauna? And I've always preferred to be
18:33
nice and warm to then get in the sea, so I don't know if is there
18:37
any sort of research around that.
18:40
That's a really good point. And to be honest, what what you
18:45
discussed there is, is kind of a concept called contrast therapy
18:48
and that's going from these contrasting temperatures.
18:52
And in terms of it for health markers, longevity, Wellness, we
18:58
don't have tons of literature at the moment regarding this.
19:02
And from what we do have, there is some positive aspects.
19:05
And you're right in that most studies and that may be down to
19:08
preference of the individual is having the heating component
19:13
first. So having the sauna use first
19:16
and then going into the bout of cold water immersion.
19:19
There have been one or two studies as well that have done
19:22
repeat closures. So contrasting between the two
19:25
for for a series of repetitions. I think one thing we need to be
19:29
mindful of is that what what's happening between or what's
19:33
happening physiologically is that obviously when we heat up,
19:35
we get an increase in heart rate, we get an increase in this
19:38
cardiac output, we get in this vasodilatory response.
19:44
And then from the moment we go into the cold, so the the blood
19:48
vessels will be dilated because we're trying to redistribute the
19:51
blood to the skin and lose heat that way.
19:53
When we go into the cold, the opposite tends to occur.
19:56
We still get the increase in heart rate, we still get the
19:59
increase in blood pressure and peripheral resistance will go
20:02
up. This is the the resistance of
20:04
blood flow into your peripheral vasculature.
20:07
This is one of a key concept of blood pressure.
20:10
But we get a redistribution of blood rather to the extremities
20:14
that we get in the heat, we get it to the core because the cold
20:19
shock response is, is a stress of that.
20:21
It's a survival mechanism. We, we want to make sure that
20:25
our, our central organs, our heart, lungs, kidneys, they're
20:28
all receiving adequate blood supply.
20:30
So what you, what you tend to find is from a dilated
20:33
perspective of the arteries, they go from dilation to then
20:37
constriction. And I guess one of the arguments
20:40
for this is a therapy and as a, as a modality for recovery is
20:45
you kind of stimulate almost like a pumping priming mechanism
20:48
of the vasculature. So you go from constriction to
20:51
dilation, constriction to dilation and that may have some
20:56
positive adaptations to the vasculature itself.
20:59
This is a, these are cells that line the inner wall of your
21:02
vasculature called epithelial cells, endothelial cells, sorry.
21:06
And they can respond to a range of different stimuli.
21:09
And one of those stimuli, yeah, one of those stimuli is the the
21:13
blood flow. So what we call sheer stress
21:15
patterns. So if you think of going from a
21:18
constricted artery to then a dilated, the blood flow is going
21:21
to redistribute in that area and you're going to have a
21:23
heightened sheer stress response on the walls of those arteries.
21:27
And that can be a signal for adaptation.
21:30
So is this this, this is obviously this is quite sort of
21:34
deep and it's it could be a solution for people with with a
21:39
number of different conditions. I guess from a commercially.
21:43
I'm going to sort of put this back and ask it rather bluntly.
21:46
Is this well-being revolution a fad, do you think, Tom?
21:51
Or is it that it's been around for so long that it's not a fad
21:55
and we've just got the guy? The people that don't know about
21:59
saunas just need to wake up and smell the roses, as it were.
22:04
I know, I think generally people that sort of more aware of their
22:11
health these days than than they were.
22:14
And but this all kind of ties into the recovery like Ben has
22:23
has touched on. And I feel like, yeah, people
22:29
are just starting to catch on to the Ben health benefits.
22:34
Yeah. And do you, you find, I mean for
22:37
the work that you do, Ben, you find there's no shortage of
22:40
volunteers, I guess. Yeah, for things such as heat
22:47
and any kind of sauna use, people are more prone to to, to
22:51
recruit and to participate. When it gets the cold, it's a
22:55
little bit trickier, more charging.
22:59
But yeah. And I think one thing to be
23:01
mindful of always being relatively critical is that when
23:05
we do look at the literature for these different modes, we have
23:09
to be mindful of the the sample that they're they're recruiting
23:13
and different baseline characteristics.
23:15
And we need to be mindful of having an inclusion of like a
23:19
control group as well, and which can be quite challenging with
23:23
research as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
23:26
The contrast area is it's been quite wide used in sport.
23:30
I know in football having these large, because they have the
23:34
facilities of these large tanks which they can heat and cold and
23:37
go in between the two as a as a method of kind of, as I
23:40
mentioned that kind of vascular pumping to try to mitigate
23:44
swelling and to improve function as well.
23:47
So it is being used as recovery modality.
23:53
In terms of Wellness, I think you'll you'll get in ideally,
23:57
but but most both, both benefits of each method.
24:02
But I think if you look at the literature more from a
24:04
cardiovascular standpoint, sauna used to have some really good
24:10
evidence towards it for kind of health, longevity reduction of
24:14
disease risk. So and and I don't know if you
24:19
saw there was a recent article, I think a couple of months ago,
24:22
you know, purporting that Sony use can be just as effective as
24:25
in a bout of exercise. And there have been one or two
24:28
studies that have done that. Yeah.
24:29
So it's quite interesting and it doesn't seem to be really
24:31
favourable for for health and longevity.
24:34
As you as you say, it's, it's sort of health, it's recovery
24:37
and and it's also pleasure because let's face it, we
24:39
mustn't forget the fact that you know, it is saunas are very
24:43
pleasurable and if if only because they give you half an
24:47
hour or an hour away from everybody else.
24:49
If you if that's that's the case and you're on your own, it's.
24:54
Inquired. Absolutely.
24:55
So if there was a take away that you would say and ask Ben first,
25:00
Ben, if there was a take away that you would say to people
25:03
who, who aren't familiar with saunas, but like The Who are
25:07
dunkers, but who like the idea of sort of thinking, well, maybe
25:11
we ought to have a go at this. Is there something that you
25:13
would say, well, look at that first and see how how you're
25:17
changing with that. Is there is there a take away
25:19
that you could share with with our our listener?
25:24
From more like an academic standpoint, I guess I'd say that
25:27
there's really strong, really strong evidence for the health
25:30
benefits of sauna and and it's forever adapting.
25:34
A lot of the research does come from Finland and there's there's
25:38
an ongoing, I don't know if you've heard of the my
25:40
pronunciation might be incorrect here, but the QPIO ischemic
25:44
heart disease risk factor study. So the KIHD and this is, this is
25:49
an ongoing longitudinal study which is measuring sauna use and
25:53
health parameters and markers. And some of the really
25:57
interesting modelling they did was looking at kind of risk of
26:01
mortality in sauna use compared to those that weren't.
26:05
And some of the really interesting findings were using
26:08
the sauna 2 to three times a week, there was a reduction in
26:11
cardiovascular mortality of about 27% and arguably there may
26:17
be a dose response. So the improvement in longevity
26:21
or the reduction in mortality associated with the frequency as
26:26
they found that there was about 50% reduction for those that use
26:30
the sauna 4 to 7 * a week. And one key thing was this, that
26:35
they could actually control for whether biases like socio
26:38
economic status, your physical activity, your cardio
26:42
respiratory fitness. So irrespective of these
26:45
influencing factors, we've seen that actually frequency of Sony
26:49
use can have really good impact on reducing the risk of
26:55
mortality. So and yeah, you know,
26:59
physiologically there's some useful evidence on the response
27:02
of heat and so on, you know, like heat shock proteins, quite
27:07
an emerging biomolecule molecule as well, so.
27:10
It's def. It's definitely not a fad, as
27:12
far as you're concerned, I mean. It's back loads.
27:15
And loads of evidence. So Tom is strange.
27:18
To them for ages. Absolutely.
27:21
They've been around a long time. Tom is a take away that you've
27:25
got that you would say. Yeah, I think just being out in
27:31
nature is probably uplifting on its own.
27:37
Just being down on the beach on an early morning, you kind of
27:41
can't compare it. It's the same, you know, whether
27:44
or not you're getting in the sauna and you're and you're
27:47
chatting to people and getting to know like minded people.
27:52
Yeah, or or dunking. I, I think all of it is if it
27:57
makes you feel good, then it it must be good for you.
28:00
That's how I. If it makes you feel good,
28:02
you've got to do it. Yeah.
28:04
Yeah. OK, so I'm going to, but just
28:06
before we wrap, I'm going to ask you both a secret question
28:10
because there's always a secret question.
28:11
The thing about the Dunkers podcast is somebody who's been
28:14
before leaves a question for the person who's coming after.
28:18
So. So I've got one for both of you
28:21
and Ben, I'll ask you yours. So if you could dunk anywhere
28:27
with anyone and then have a sauna, where would it be and
28:31
who? Brilliant.
28:35
That's a very good question. Could this be alive or could it
28:40
have to be alive? Or can we bring up the dead it?
28:44
Doesn't matter. You just go with it.
28:46
Yeah, No, it could be anybody. Anybody.
28:49
I'm going to say if anywhere I would love somewhere off the
28:55
Orla, Sicily, somewhere, somewhere, OK, all right.
28:57
It would be lovely. It's on my bucket list for
28:59
places I want to visit. I'm a big God for the fan.
29:02
So a lot of it was filmed there and the guest, I would go
29:09
probably a little bit of an unusual pic, but I'd probably
29:12
say Rick James obviously from if we could revive him back from
29:15
the dead. And the reason for that is I
29:18
think going for a sauna and then maybe a couple of drinks after,
29:22
he'd be very, very entertaining. Obviously that that look if that
29:27
if that ever can happen, just include me in on the invite.
29:31
You'll be there. And Tom, your secret question
29:36
is, who inspires you? Oh, who inspires me?
29:46
Well, in terms of the sauna, I think Alex definitely inspired
29:52
me. Alex from Sauna Bath and my dad,
30:00
definitely a big inspiration. He joined the Navy when he was
30:05
young and his teen, you know, early teens and travelled all
30:08
around the world and kind of definitely gave me a taste of to
30:14
go and explore. To go and explore, yeah.
30:19
So yeah, I think and for me for the question that you asked Ben,
30:25
I mean I'm going to jump in on as well.
30:28
Yeah, well, why not? Yeah, go.
30:30
Tasmania and one of the beaches there, one of the wild beaches
30:35
there and probably with my dad's and be able to go for a couple
30:39
of beers afterwards, something like that.
30:42
Beers are definitely on the agenda for both of.
30:45
You. Yeah, bit of rehydration.
30:47
Yeah. You just don't.
30:48
Just make sure we're hydrated before the sauna.
30:51
Yeah, that's it. Yeah.
30:54
Ever the scientist, ever the, he's looking, he's looking after
30:59
us even when we're going for a beer.
31:01
Well, gentlemen, thank you very much indeed.
31:04
I've really, really enjoyed this and thank you both for your
31:07
time. And as I say with every
31:10
everything that that to do with the dunkers all I would leave
31:15
you with this thought and that is may the dunkers spirit go
31:18
with you. Thank you for being with me.
31:21
Cheers. Brilliant.
31:22
Thank you, Mark. Thanks.
31:23
Tom.