Latest / Arizona Unscripted / Episode 32: 🌵 Arizona Unscripted - Flock Cameras: Safety, Survellence & Privacy!!
Transcript
- Arizona Unscripted: Welcome to Arizona Unscripted. I'm your host, Bart, alongside my wonderful co-host today, Jim and Catherine. From time to time, we'll be joined by several and maybe special, depending on how anyway. Papa guests, I better get my speech done better. From communities all across the Grand Canyon State. Arizona Inscripted is all about Arizona. It's people, it's places, it's events, and the local issues that shape our everyday lives. From small towns to big cities, from hidden gems and great local food. Of course, I have a few favorite places, but anyway. ⁓ And the challenges facing our communities, we are here to have a real conversation with real Arizonans. So our goal is simple to celebrate what makes Arizona unique while bringing together voices from every corner of our state. So whether you're a lifelong resident, a newcomer, or just someone who loves Arizona, we hope you'll feel right at home. So with that, I am going to bring in my wonderful co-host Catherine to introduce our guest today. Hi, Bard. Thank you so much. Absolutely. And we've got Jim here with us today, too, and Daniel and Joan. And I want to encourage everybody to participate with the conversation today. Yeah. We have a very special guest, Ed Cale is joining us from Apache Junction. Ed kind of made ⁓ the headlines recently with his interaction with a flock. camera. And I'm not sure I'm Is that a camera for birds? Is that a bird camera? Well we wish it was a camera for birds. Yeah. I don't know if I told you earlier that we had the Lake Havasu City Police Department on ⁓ last week talking about flock cameras and we had some questions for them and and they gave us ⁓ their their perspective. And so we are just really grateful to have you come on and give us a different perspective about the flock cameras. So ⁓ tell us tell us what's what's on your mind today, Ed. ⁓ it's interesting that ⁓ that you said that. And and ⁓ talking to the police department. So ⁓ a week after my incident, I ⁓ I I was approached by several news agencies and I decided to ⁓ make some phone calls and and that's where the interview came. ⁓ Fox TV came out and And did their their their bit. ⁓ and then a a couple days later, ironically, Apache Junction all of a sudden they decided that ⁓ one of their own had misused the the the surveillance system. And ⁓ that was a shocker, right? So ⁓ Yes and no, huh? I I you know I got I someone said there's a ⁓ T V ⁓ there's a you know there's a something going on down there Apache Junction at the police station. And I said, okay, I I got dressed up. Well, I got, you know, presentable and I went down there, opened the doors and there was wall to wall cameras and they were interviewing the the chief and he looked right at me and I looked right at him. And that was a interesting kind of ⁓ situation there. ⁓ and I thought, you know, I I'm not gonna di disrespect what he's trying to say. And ⁓ And and so he said, I want to talk to you. And I said, I want to talk to you. And ⁓ we went up in his office and ⁓ and we had a discussion and I I believe that Some of these police departments, they they are using them and and and his words were that they're using them to catch bad people. And I and and I I don't disagree with that. I don't disagree that they're doing that. I think they believe in in in using them to catch criminals. And but therein lies the problem, and it's bigger than them. And I I and I tried to tell them, I said, okay, so you You subscribe to this company called Flock and there's Axum and others as well. Right. They subscribe. So the information let me start by s I just want to say that I have nothing to hide. I have nothing to hide. I don't have a criminal record. I might after this, but I don't have and it's worth it because this is where you don't. Just for the ⁓ of ⁓ those people in our audience who maybe don't know exactly what happened with your incident, it might be nice to just give a really brief ⁓ explanation of what happened or how this all started. In short, I'm a construction guy, I'm a contractor, and I went to one of my projects and I loaded trucks at starting at 5 a.m. and we did that till about 10. And then we left because we were done for the day and it was getting hot. And ⁓ I I I went home, I grabbed my girlfriend and I said, Let's go to lunch. So we went to lunch and there's this camera sitting there for a couple days. And some reason it just it just it you know, I just ⁓ that's it. I what is that doing? Yeah, rural residential. I you know, I've got nothing to hide, but I backed into the pole and I felt it. Yep, touch my bumper and then I said, Okay. And I just tucked the throttle a little bit more until that pole bent and I saw the camera looking at the sky. I didn't break the camera. I know that people would have been upset if their camera and their tax dollars were destroyed in the camera. Fine. I s now it's surveying the sky. So that was that was what I did. And ⁓ back to you. So how did you did did you get arrested for that or Did they record you on the camera or how did you how did they find out that you did this? So moreover, to my I have nothing to hide. I wasn't out there in a ski mask. I wasn't out there at the middle of night, broad daylight, about eleven AM. I backed in front of the camera and I backed up to the pole and I bent the pole. And so they they were looking for my truck and they tracked my truck. In fact, they we went to eat at the Rusty Buckle. In downtown Apache Junction, nice little restaurant there. Apparently, they went looking for me there, so they tracked me down there. And I'm sitting back watching this and listening to this whole story, and I'm seeing this whole thing unfold in front of my eyes. And the last two weeks have been really unreal as to the information coming in on these things, but We had gone back out to go grocery shopping and we were on the way home and ⁓ that's when I got pulled over by the undercover cop. The whole police station showed up, all of ⁓ I was like, Yeah, I'm a big guy, but you know, I'm not you know, I totally was ⁓ admitted and you know, I didn't argue, ⁓ you know, I'm not gonna try to do that, you know. I drive I want the whole country, I want people to understand that these are gonna be Surveillance on all of us. I'd like to see people go out in their neighborhoods. I'd like to see families. I'd like to see everybody go out and just pull them out of the ground and say, give them back to their, you know, we need to do this in numbers because nobody wants surveillance. What are we going into? You know. As a as a matter of fact, ⁓ the I just was reading today that Block has successfully been kicked out of Sedona, Flagstaff, South Tucson. Douglas, Sierra Vista, and Chandler. Winning. Yeah. Winning. Winning. If you know people look, we there's a lot of people that we're inherently good and we don't have a criminal past, criminal history, but yet they want to put us under surveillance. And it's I won't say that it's our local police department that's well, they have been shown to be abusing these, but The company that owns this software, where are they? Who's watching them? How do we know it's not getting into traffickers? How do I know that ⁓ someone that's in theft? I have heavy equipment placed around the valley. How do I know there's, ⁓ Ed's on vacation? I'm gonna go in and let's let's just grab his equipment and run it to Mexico while he's gone. There there's so many different scenarios out there that I can think of that I don't want surveillance on me personally, and yet I have nothing to hide. I don't want. to have surveillance on me, I do want to hide from surveillance. It's because I don't want to be trapped. And a lot of people don't. Because you have a Fourth Amendment right to be not to be ⁓ surveyed. No invasion of your privacy. Yes. Yes, that's exactly what it is. Exactly. So so I I think probably pretty much everybody here will kind of agree with you on that. We did get quite a different perspective, of course, from the police department. And w one of the questions that we asked was, you know, what type of controls do they have? And they do have some internal controls, but I am really with you, Ed. I worry about the company itself up at the corporate level. And what do they put in their contracts that they can do regardless of what the police department that's contracted with them? Regardless of what they know or or desire, the f what can the company do with all of that data that is collected? That's the data they said goes to the cloud. So yeah, well who controls the cloud, you know, they can anybody can hack in there and yes and get it and and use it against you in a future. I had an open server on one ⁓ at an office and ⁓ found out that my my online server was hacked when we did a ⁓ ⁓ an audit and we found all these IP address a few IP addresses were like, hey, who's accessing our company information? And it was in a cloud-based server called Wright Networks. And and ⁓ so I me personally as a a construction contractor, when we bid a job, we have to be typically the lowest number. Okay. And so if someone is able to access that information and go in there and say, okay, this company's I mean that information could be sold. If someone came in less than me, they're gonna win my potential contract. So I I am pretty worried about the the the hackability of theirs of their stuff. So ⁓ there's so many ways it can be misused and and and hacking in. You're right. And how often do we have hacks all the time? Yes. All the time computers get hacked. And it's not like it's a rare occurrence for in for our technology to get hacked. And and and and another thing is child trafficking. ⁓ whoa, let's go way above the local police department, let's go to the really bad people. these cameras faced facing tra ⁓ hiking trails, ⁓ schools, ⁓ it's it could be ⁓ the worst of the worst could say, ⁓ I want that one, you know, or I want that kid. Yeah. So ⁓ my gosh. Is that a possibility? ⁓ I'm not Let's just talk about it because trafficking hasn't been brought up too much, but it's a big problem in this country. It really is. Yes, it is. Yes, it is. Wow. And then what you said as far as them taking a look at your bids, I never thought of it that way, but if they have confidential information based on what how you're gonna bid then they can certainly ⁓ they could theoretically put you out of business. They could. And and that and that's a different type of thing. That wasn't specifically ⁓ surveillance, but that was ⁓ you know, computer tampering. I I ⁓ I didn't take that any further. ⁓ we just locked up our computers better. But ⁓ y you know, it's I I don't trust this stuff. And and people in the in the community out here, they're saying, Well, I've done nothing wrong and I don't mind them because well, wait until something happens that When you start losing your freedom, people don't speak out until it's all already gone. Right. That's just one one little chink in so in the wall. So what happens when you with now with your case? I mean I've I maybe I missed that. Did you like do you get like a citation or something or find where I have to rebend the pull back or what what's going on? Well, ⁓ I we're waiting to see what what happens with that. And ⁓ you know, ⁓ I'm fully ⁓ I'm gonna take whatever judgment I get. I would ⁓ I think we're probably gonna go to trial and ⁓ do jury and ⁓ maybe a nullification. So y you you have you have legal counsel? I do. ⁓ good. Yeah, I guess. ⁓ judge, I was just rem the camera ⁓ angle is just not ⁓ artistic enough for what what what's needed. Yeah, really is you didn't break it, you adjusted it. There you go. It offended my aesthetics and that's why I had to adjust it. Yeah. I really yeah. I yeah, all of the above. I mean what what are what are what are your fears? You know, ⁓ does any ⁓ you know that I I'm I'm I'm talking to a lot of people now and I'm I'm hearing stories. And so many people have called me and and even from out of state, I've got calls from the north, the w east, west coast just saying thank you for doing that. And I'm I'm amazed because I don't I just think that everybody wants this off of them. I know. I don't think anybody wants surveillance on them 247. Right. I I think you're probably right about that. I don't know anybody who is in favor of that unless they are the ones doing the surveilling. Yeah. It seems like they spend a lot of money to catch a few criminals, you know. yeah. And it sounds like it is a helpful tool. Go ahead, Joan. One one of the things I think that Chief Sterling alluded to was the fact that he ⁓ saw ⁓ legislation coming down the pike. in regard to this. And I think that's another piece of it. I think it's it's just so highly unregulated at this point, hasn't been dealt with, which makes it even worse. Right. Yeah, they won't let ⁓ have cameras in some of these courts, but they can put ⁓ out on the street and surveil us all day long. That doesn't seem right. I think I think we're in a a definite push in a fight for for what We're trying to hang on to some semblance of of freedom here. I I really do. I think that ⁓ that these cameras tied in with these data centers, I think it's all one big push to just turn us all into slaves. I mean, financial tax beyond belief, you know, slaves. Ultimately, that's what it seems like where where it's going. It's control, yeah. They try to control you with that surveillance and let you can't go here, you can go there, and you're not supposed to be there. But go ahead. Well, there there are behavior modifications that come from being under surveillance where people don't want to leave their house ⁓ or they modify their behavior to act a certain way and they're just not themselves. Right. ⁓ I mean, we're we're looking at you know, to pull up a movie, we're looking at the Hunger Games and stuff like that. What we're we're to me it's it's more like those cameras, it's like the eye of Sauron to me. ⁓ th from the the the the Lord of the Rings series, stuff like that. You know, it's it's just an evil eye on you watching everything you do. And I I I think we're we need to get away with the get get rid of this stuff now. Hey man Daniel, what's your comment? Question? Well There's so many different layers to this that getting it clearly defined is going to be important because there's federal observation, state observation, local observation, observation in the store you're shopping in, your neighbors recording whatever is going on around us, but it's how is this information being accumulated? Who's using it for what purpose? I had one friend say they weren't concerned. They were only concerned about this because of our current administration. And I pointed out to them that Adolf Hitler didn't kill very many people. It was the local police and the communities who were doing the arresting and the killing on the request of the higher authorities. And people don't get that. So I am concerned. ⁓ I have no reason to pull trust any policeman simply because they're a policeman. Yes. Absolutely no reason to trust them. ⁓ any more than they have any reason to trust me as a citizen when they're stopping me. And when we've already seen situations where people have been accused of being somewhere according to what the camera information said, and they weren't there. But the accusation Is all it takes to destroy your job, your standing in the community. These are important issues. Big, big, complex things. It's not going to be a simple thing, but to back off way back and and flock, they can buy a property, put up cameras wherever they want because they have Individual civil rights, just like you and I, even though they will live forever. And they can keep that information forever. And and make all kinds of implications, whoever they are. We don't know who they are. That's why it's so scary. And there's there's really in order to try to prevent. A few crimes, like how much are we willing to sacrifice in order to track somebody down? It's not like we don't always ready have means and information. So it's not a simple problem. It's not going to have a simple solution, but we do have to decide what are our we have a right in public to take pictures and record whatever we want. Apparently so do the businesses. So this isn't going to be a simple one to s to to fix. But I know what I don't like already, even if I don't know what to do about it. But I'm certainly not going to throw up and say, ⁓ it doesn't matter because I'm not doing anything. I wasn't doing anything the last time I got accused of doing something I wasn't doing either. And I didn't like it. Yeah, it makes criminals out of some people that aren't really criminals, you know? Yeah. Why did you run me run from the cops? Well, because you were chasing me, you know. My gosh. Well, Daniel, what you mentioned the ⁓ all the multiple forms of surveillance ⁓ which we are all under all the time. And and you're right, it is such a complex problem. There's there's so many layers to it. I do have one more question for you, Ed. is you mentioned that you've been talking to a lot of people all around the country. What's what does the future hold for you? How do you have a plan for ⁓ getting your story out there? Well, ⁓ I don't really have a plan for getting my story out there. I I I didn't plan this. I didn't plan to do this. ⁓ I just didn't want it I don't want the surveillance on me. I I'm hoping to have grandkids. My kids are ⁓ call college and past college age and and I just I I I realize that the world has changed. since I was in school in the eighties, nineties. ⁓ but for them, the even the opportunity to buy a house is dire. I mean, things have just changed so much. And and to have my grandkids, ⁓ hopefully I have grandkids, to have them grow up and to have cameras facing them and just under surveillance, I mean, when is the worry gonna stop as a parent or Grandparent. It's like, okay, I'm looking, I'm I'm out here looking for child traffickers who's gonna steal my kids. So this kind of stuff, and I'm worried that it's gonna get in the hands of the wrong people. And yeah, that could also be from local bad law enforcement. There's always a few bad eggs here and there. But yes, I am afraid that it's gonna get in the hands of the wrong people and and ⁓ if it ⁓ hasn't already. ⁓ as far as a plan for me moving forward, I you know, I'm a contractor. I have been for over twenty s twenty years and I'm just gonna go about ⁓ looking at my my regular life and and preparing for retirement. But I feel like at fifty years old, now it's probably time for me to join in and fight the fight a little bit with with folks like yourself that have these discussions and that's music to our ears, Ed. You're welcome. Yeah. And ⁓ you know, ⁓ party lines, I I I I I've just I'm I'm I'm so done with politics, you know, in in a lot of ways. I have my opinion and that's it. That's so I guess that that calls that means I'm independent, right? Yeah, that sounds kind of independent, Ed. That sounds kind of independent. ⁓ I grew up I had one parent that was ⁓ Democrat and one Republican and the family fights all the time just you know. ⁓ that's a drag. Well I betcha they've gotten worse in the last few years. I'd say in the last ten years. Those family feuds have made a big deal. So yeah. There's a lot of people that are doing this now. I'm seeing it around the country. They don't want to be under surveillance. This is from coast to coast. And this is going on in in in Europe right now. They're cutting all this stuff down. People don't want to be so controlled by the controllers. Right. So you just you had that one moment where you were faced with, wait a second, am I gonna put up with this or am I gonna on my values. And it's like people reach that point where they have to make a decision about what they're going to do moving forward. And we see what happened when you reached that point. Entirely. Yes. Nobody was hurt. Nothing was broken. I bent a pole in protest. Adjusted. Adjusted. Yeah. I like that better. I adjusted their surveillance to the sky. It's really a flock camera now because it's it's photographing birds up there. Awesome. Yes. That's a that's a great one. ⁓ I love that. Protecting us from drones. You can see I can see a new movement now. Flock cameras aimed toward the birds. There's the flock. We're counting east. That doesn't sound so controversial at all. ⁓ that sounds good. ⁓ that's hilarious. I really like your show. I appreciate you guys ⁓ and what you're doing. And you know, it's it's nice to have a little relief from all the you know the seriousness of the situation, you know. And I I admire you. ⁓ thank you for stepping up and and ⁓ standing up for for what you believe in. I appreciate that, and you're welcome. Same here. Absolutely. You're a hero now, Ed. We're gonna get you a cape to wear. You can wear a cape out there riding your earth moving machine. Deep gratitude, Ed. I like your ⁓ technological upgrades and adjustments to the situation. So again for being here and for being somebody bringing voice and information and another perspective to the situation. Well, thank you very much and I appreciate that comment. All right. Thanks everybody for being here today. Thank you so much, Ed. Best of luck to you. And we'll see you all next time. Thank you, Ed. Take care, guys. Thanks for the conversation.