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72. You Can’t Bypass Your Family: The Deeper Path of Constellation Work with Rodrigo Hagar Millon · Constellations and all that...

• 0:00
  Tracy Cartwright: Kiona and welcome to Constellations and all that.
• 0:03
  Tracy Cartwright: I'm your host, Tracy Cartwright, and together we will be exploring the world of family constellations with facilitators for and clients from around the world, looking at different perspectives and experiences in the work, having a cup of tea, and just chatting with some friends around their experiences in constellations.
• 0:23
  Tracy Cartwright: We'd love for you to join us.
• 0:25
  Tracy Cartwright: I hope that you enjoy this series as much as I have loved making it.
• 0:34
  Tracy Cartwright: Everyone and welcome to Constellations and all that.
• 0:38
  Tracy Cartwright: Today I have the pleasure of chatting with Rodrigo.
• 0:42
  Tracy Cartwright: Aga.
• 0:42
  Tracy Cartwright: Aga.
• 0:42
  Tracy Cartwright: Great.
• 0:43
  Tracy Cartwright: I say it
• 0:45
  Rodrigo Hagar: right, very fine.
• 0:45
  Rodrigo Hagar: Very fine.
• 0:46
  Tracy Cartwright: Before we go any further, I just wanna note that I'm looking at my, at my clock and it says 1, 1, 1.
• 0:52
  Tracy Cartwright: So for me, I'm, I'm, when I see numbers like that, it's like, ah, there's always something in that.
• 0:58
  Tracy Cartwright: And so I just felt like I really needed to acknowledge that.
• 1:02
  Rodrigo Hagar: Fine.
• 1:03
  Tracy Cartwright: Just as we started that our numbers have lined up and um, yeah.
• 1:08
  Tracy Cartwright: Beautiful.
• 1:09
  Tracy Cartwright: Thank you so
• 1:09
  Rodrigo Hagar: much.
• 1:09
  Rodrigo Hagar: Well minutes.
• 1:10
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah,
• 1:10
  Rodrigo Hagar: no, thank you.
• 1:10
  Rodrigo Hagar: Tracy, thank you for you for this invitation.
• 1:13
  Rodrigo Hagar: I was very much looking forward for this conversation, so Well, let's go in it.
• 1:18
  Rodrigo Hagar: And I'm very grateful for this.
• 1:19
  Tracy Cartwright: Oh, for this invitation.
• 1:20
  Tracy Cartwright: Fantastic.
• 1:21
  Tracy Cartwright: So you and I met last year in Mexico, and you are a friend of, a friend of mine, uh, Natalia Bian from who is in Auckland.
• 1:34
  Tracy Cartwright: And a facilitator, she's, you've known her for a long time.
• 1:37
  Tracy Cartwright: So, so she reached out to me and said, Hey, hey, I know my friend is gonna be at the same event.
• 1:44
  Tracy Cartwright: So connect.
• 1:44
  Tracy Cartwright: So that was a really beautiful, um, moment, like of connection.
• 1:48
  Tracy Cartwright: And then I had the pleasure of coming to your workshop.
• 1:52
  Tracy Cartwright: I'm gonna jump into, I'm gonna jump into that.
• 1:55
  Tracy Cartwright: Sorry, I interrupted you.
• 1:57
  Rodrigo Hagar: No, no,
• 1:58
  Tracy Cartwright: no.
• 1:58
  Tracy Cartwright: But I wanna, I, first of all, before I start that.
• 2:01
  Tracy Cartwright: I've got so many things lighting up.
• 2:03
  Tracy Cartwright: Sometimes when I start a conversation it's like, oh, where am I going?
• 2:07
  Tracy Cartwright: But it's like all of these things are lighting up.
• 2:09
  Tracy Cartwright: First of all, I'm gonna invite you to please share a little bit about yourself so that the listeners and the viewers can get a taste of who you are.
• 2:18
  Rodrigo Hagar: Well, um, well, I'm a. I'm a father and and husband here in Chile.
• 2:24
  Rodrigo Hagar: I live in the south of Chile in Vica.
• 2:26
  Rodrigo Hagar: It's a place lu lot of, with a lot of forests and, uh, and nature.
• 2:31
  Rodrigo Hagar: I live in the countryside, enjoying the mountains next to a volcano.
• 2:37
  Rodrigo Hagar: And, um, and, well, I'm I, clinical psychologist from 18 years now and I'm on a, a systemic constellation facilitator since.
• 2:49
  Rodrigo Hagar: It's 12, no, 18 years as a psychologist and 12 years as a.
• 2:53
  Rodrigo Hagar: As a systemic facilitator and, and will.
• 2:57
  Rodrigo Hagar: Um, also, I'm a musician, a writer.
• 3:00
  Rodrigo Hagar: Mm-hmm.
• 3:00
  Rodrigo Hagar: I've got some books there, some musical, uh, discs and, and songs also in, I don't know, in YouTube and Spotify.
• 3:09
  Rodrigo Hagar: And will somebody that loves what he does, uh, a loving.
• 3:15
  Rodrigo Hagar: Man with my wife, with my children, and now studying j Jung Yu psychology, uh, from now two years studying Jungian psychology and, and well hoping to end that, that career this year in 2026.
• 3:29
  Rodrigo Hagar: I hope so.
• 3:30
  Rodrigo Hagar: Well, that will be maybe some
• 3:33
  Tracy Cartwright: right.
• 3:34
  Rodrigo Hagar: Introduction.
• 3:35
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 3:35
  Rodrigo Hagar: Mm-hmm.
• 3:36
  Tracy Cartwright: Great introduction.
• 3:38
  Tracy Cartwright: Um, one of the questions I, I usually ask, uh, so I'll jump straight into that, is how did.
• 3:44
  Tracy Cartwright: Constellations find you.
• 3:46
  Tracy Cartwright: When was the first, your first experience with it?
• 3:49
  Rodrigo Hagar: It was 2006.
• 3:51
  Rodrigo Hagar: I was in a, I was living a huge crisis, not a huge breakdown, uh, with a psychotherapist that in Chile was the, one of the people who brought Hellinger to Chile.
• 4:02
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm-hmm.
• 4:03
  Rodrigo Hagar: And, um.
• 4:04
  Rodrigo Hagar: He talked me about this family constellations issue.
• 4:07
  Rodrigo Hagar: I had listened to it one year before, but without knowing, no, I didn't go to any workshop.
• 4:13
  Rodrigo Hagar: So with him, I, he talked to me about this family constellations.
• 4:17
  Rodrigo Hagar: He was, it was this, uh, this years when Hellinger didn't have an official training in Family Constellations.
• 4:23
  Rodrigo Hagar: So.
• 4:24
  Rodrigo Hagar: Seeing him, going to him, to his workshops.
• 4:27
  Rodrigo Hagar: You learned the method?
• 4:28
  Rodrigo Hagar: No, so, so, well, he talked me about this and, and Bert went to Chile in 2006 and I went to, to a workshop and a and a talk of him.
• 4:38
  Rodrigo Hagar: And well, that was like a very moving experience.
• 4:40
  Rodrigo Hagar: You know, it was like realizing this kind of, I, I think that two in two big levels, you know, in, in one level this kind of realization of the structure of life as an energetic form, but, um, but very grounded.
• 4:57
  Rodrigo Hagar: Also know in, in, in the family, in what we, what is family.
• 5:01
  Rodrigo Hagar: It is like huge.
• 5:03
  Rodrigo Hagar: Well, if you've been, I don't know, close to to Bert Heger, it was like a lot of energy in his presence,
• 5:09
  Tracy Cartwright: you know?
• 5:09
  Tracy Cartwright: So it was like, no, I never had the opportunity, well, not in the physical.
• 5:13
  Rodrigo Hagar: Well, yeah,
• 5:14
  Tracy Cartwright: for sure.
• 5:14
  Tracy Cartwright: I've had some experiences, but are not in the physical.
• 5:17
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm.
• 5:17
  Rodrigo Hagar: Uhhuh, but maybe you have noticed No, the, the, the great amount of energy, well, we can see it in, in all the people that, that shared with him that, that get trained with him, you know?
• 5:25
  Rodrigo Hagar: Mm-hmm.
• 5:26
  Rodrigo Hagar: And, um, and, well, I, I, I, I will say that in that first level, in the, in the energetic realm, like this spiritual, uh, consciousness of.
• 5:38
  Rodrigo Hagar: Uh, the structure of spiritual reality in some sense that I've never seen before.
• 5:42
  Rodrigo Hagar: I, I've had some experiences in that time with Buddhism, with, uh, also with Shamanism South in South America, shamanism, and, and it was completely different and, and kind of.
• 5:53
  Rodrigo Hagar: Uh, had a dialogue with what I loved the most in that moment.
• 5:57
  Rodrigo Hagar: That was psychology.
• 5:58
  Rodrigo Hagar: So it was very, very moving.
• 6:00
  Rodrigo Hagar: And in the second place, uh, I will say that it will, it was the, um, the realization that a spiritual path had to have great roots in, in family knowing and in the acknowledging your process.
• 6:13
  Rodrigo Hagar: In what has to be with your place in your family.
• 6:15
  Rodrigo Hagar: And, and that was completely shocking in that moment for me.
• 6:19
  Rodrigo Hagar: I was like, I don't know.
• 6:20
  Rodrigo Hagar: I was 23 years old, um, trying to get rid of, I don't know all, all what I, in that time I conceived as limitations and, uh, and, and it was like that consciousness that, that clarity that, uh, what, what, what Bert said, no, it's like.
• 6:35
  Rodrigo Hagar: There's no spiritual path that is divorced from this, this taking place in what your family system is.
• 6:42
  Rodrigo Hagar: And that is very, yeah.
• 6:44
  Tracy Cartwright: Sometimes people, people take the spiritual path or go searching on a spiritual path because they're.
• 6:50
  Tracy Cartwright: They're seeking another family, right?
• 6:53
  Tracy Cartwright: They're seeking to get away from their family or seeking some sort of connection 'cause of the disconnection.
• 6:59
  Rodrigo Hagar: Yeah.
• 7:00
  Rodrigo Hagar: And that's, in some sense, it's a disconnection.
• 7:02
  Rodrigo Hagar: It doesn't have to be maybe with the methods in, in their, in themselves.
• 7:06
  Rodrigo Hagar: I don't know if you change your name or you do that, that thing that's, that's great in, in some senses you are.
• 7:11
  Rodrigo Hagar: Maybe expanding your identity.
• 7:12
  Rodrigo Hagar: No, but if you do the bypass, what is called the, the spiritual bypass in trans, in transpersonal psychology.
• 7:19
  Rodrigo Hagar: Well, that there's the problem, I think, and I think that I was living kind of spiritual bypass in that moment.
• 7:24
  Rodrigo Hagar: You know, that was, that was like kind of having me very troubled in the inside.
• 7:29
  Rodrigo Hagar: And, um, and that clarity gave me a new path, a new path that I, that I started to walk.
• 7:35
  Rodrigo Hagar: Well, this, this thing that Constellations just took me, you know, I, I, uh, I had the first training this psychotherapist that became a kind of mentor to me.
• 7:45
  Rodrigo Hagar: And, and then my teacher in, in Family Constellations opened this training in 2009.
• 7:51
  Rodrigo Hagar: I took the training, um.
• 7:54
  Rodrigo Hagar: Then I waited four years when I was very scared of starting to open groups because I didn't felt I had the, the abilities to do that.
• 8:02
  Rodrigo Hagar: Um, and well, when my, when my, uh, wife, uh, when, when my son, my first son was in, in, in way.
• 8:13
  Rodrigo Hagar: To, to born.
• 8:13
  Rodrigo Hagar: Well, I, I decided I, I will start doing now these workshops.
• 8:18
  Rodrigo Hagar: It was 2014 monthly workshops.
• 8:20
  Rodrigo Hagar: I went, I, I haven't stopped in, in 12 years now, each month, uh, doing this
• 8:26
  Tracy Cartwright: brilliant.
• 8:27
  Rodrigo Hagar: Brilliant.
• 8:27
  Tracy Cartwright: So you said you, did you talk to Bert Heener at that, at that first meeting?
• 8:32
  Tracy Cartwright: No, no,
• 8:33
  Rodrigo Hagar: no.
• 8:33
  Rodrigo Hagar: It was, it was very, uh, very, very funny.
• 8:37
  Rodrigo Hagar: You know, I, I was, well, I was 23 years, I was in a huge breakdown, very insightful, but, but in this kind of troubled in inside, no, not getting, not getting too much clues about myself.
• 8:50
  Rodrigo Hagar: And, and I used to smoke in that time.
• 8:52
  Rodrigo Hagar: And, and this was in a university in Chile, in the center of Chile, a very urban.
• 8:57
  Rodrigo Hagar: Town, you know, with, with a lot of, uh, uh, uh, dust in the air, you know, and all that.
• 9:02
  Rodrigo Hagar: So, um, and I was like, we're in a break in, in this, in this, uh, workshop.
• 9:09
  Rodrigo Hagar: And okay, I, I, I, I, I like in the cigarette.
• 9:12
  Rodrigo Hagar: And I went to a place where I could see the street and I, I was seeing the street and suddenly I looked to my right and it was bird there standing up alone looking, I don't know, in a sight maybe, I don't know.
• 9:26
  Rodrigo Hagar: Like an open sight.
• 9:28
  Rodrigo Hagar: Yep.
• 9:28
  Rodrigo Hagar: I maybe, I don't know, having a rest, maybe trying to not look to me, so like I would ask something I don't know.
• 9:37
  Rodrigo Hagar: But I was a kid in that moment, in, in many senses, and I didn't know what to say to him.
• 9:42
  Rodrigo Hagar: That's the truth.
• 9:43
  Rodrigo Hagar: I was like, I, I saw him and I just get like in, I had an impact with his side.
• 9:49
  Rodrigo Hagar: He was like looking like to a place, I don't know where, but very far away in some sense.
• 9:54
  Rodrigo Hagar: I'm very close in the other way.
• 9:56
  Rodrigo Hagar: Uh, very present, you know?
• 9:58
  Rodrigo Hagar: And, um, and I didn't know what to say, you know, and I, I just remained in there smoking my cigarette, like doing as if nothing happened, but sharing some kind of silence with Bert Inger, I don't know what had been five minutes maybe.
• 10:11
  Rodrigo Hagar: Um, and well then I, I went back, you know, to the place and, and he had like, that was my closest experience with him.
• 10:19
  Rodrigo Hagar: And, and the other was just expecting and, and, uh, yeah, and being participating in the, in the workshop.
• 10:26
  Tracy Cartwright: And I, I've heard from others that, um, you didn't even need to talk to him, that his presence was, was so, you know, like he, that sometimes he would put someone in the, in the hot seat beside him and he would just sit there with them and um, and that was it.
• 10:41
  Tracy Cartwright: He would say, are we done?
• 10:42
  Rodrigo Hagar: Mm-hmm.
• 10:42
  Rodrigo Hagar: Mm-hmm.
• 10:44
  Tracy Cartwright: Or we are done.
• 10:44
  Tracy Cartwright: I.
• 10:45
  Rodrigo Hagar: I remember that sense now, now that I recall it.
• 10:48
  Rodrigo Hagar: No, that sense of like, of, uh, of going to, to Dana know when, when I was with him there, it looked like, okay, like, like if when you're doing like, I don't know, send meditation, you know, like, like you have to get straight like, okay, and, and just smoking my cigarette and looking to the street.
• 11:05
  Rodrigo Hagar: Like, uh, having to maybe have a synchronize with, with that, with that process, you know, in some sense.
• 11:12
  Rodrigo Hagar: Mm-hmm.
• 11:13
  Rodrigo Hagar: Maybe that I can record it, but yeah, it was very moving without saying anything.
• 11:17
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 11:18
  Rodrigo Hagar: Uh, uh, and I don't know, maybe that time I needed and, and I, I, I, I'm something about somehow Sure about that, that, uh, I need.
• 11:28
  Rodrigo Hagar: That was a time when I needed a lot of silence in, in my, in my mind.
• 11:31
  Rodrigo Hagar: You know, my, your mind.
• 11:32
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 11:32
  Rodrigo Hagar: Daily life.
• 11:33
  Rodrigo Hagar: So maybe.
• 11:34
  Rodrigo Hagar: Yeah.
• 11:35
  Tracy Cartwright: Great pairing.
• 11:36
  Rodrigo Hagar: Yeah.
• 11:36
  Rodrigo Hagar: But, but, but a huge presence.
• 11:38
  Rodrigo Hagar: Yeah.
• 11:38
  Rodrigo Hagar: He had a, a huge presence.
• 11:40
  Rodrigo Hagar: Yeah.
• 11:40
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 11:41
  Tracy Cartwright: Admiring your cup, I mentioned to you earlier how gorgeous.
• 11:44
  Rodrigo Hagar: Yeah.
• 11:45
  Tracy Cartwright: Mushroom for those who can see legal on the screen, he's got the most gorgeous cup.
• 11:49
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 11:49
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 11:50
  Rodrigo Hagar: That's my wife's gift.
• 11:51
  Rodrigo Hagar: Yeah.
• 11:52
  Rodrigo Hagar: Mushrooms in here.
• 11:53
  Rodrigo Hagar: Well, we have a, we have a pretty fine mushroom culture here in, in Vica.
• 11:57
  Rodrigo Hagar: We have some, some festivals, you know, around mushrooms.
• 12:01
  Rodrigo Hagar: So it's, it's, uh, it's, uh.
• 12:03
  Rodrigo Hagar: Very interesting topic here.
• 12:05
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 12:06
  Tracy Cartwright: It's, it's growing, I think globally, but, um, is that therapeutic mushrooms or all mushrooms?
• 12:14
  Rodrigo Hagar: All mushrooms.
• 12:15
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm-hmm.
• 12:15
  Rodrigo Hagar: Um, from, I don't know, siling to, uh, this, um, I don't know, um, the names in, in a, in English, but Rei Rega,
• 12:26
  Tracy Cartwright: lions mane.
• 12:27
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 12:28
  Rodrigo Hagar: That's what, that's, that's helpful.
• 12:29
  Rodrigo Hagar: And all the others, but all the other souls.
• 12:31
  Rodrigo Hagar: Yeah.
• 12:32
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah, I make cacao and I quite often will put mushrooms in my cacao when, when, when the calling happens.
• 12:39
  Tracy Cartwright: You know, like
• 12:39
  Rodrigo Hagar: mm-hmm.
• 12:40
  Rodrigo Hagar: Of.
• 12:41
  Tracy Cartwright: Depends on what I'm really called to put in.
• 12:43
  Tracy Cartwright: But, um, yeah, it's, it's, it's an added bonus.
• 12:47
  Tracy Cartwright: And I have thought about making a blend with some Rishi or something like that in it, but
• 12:51
  Rodrigo Hagar: mm-hmm.
• 12:52
  Tracy Cartwright: There are others doing that.
• 12:53
  Tracy Cartwright: I, um, yeah, I make my own
• 12:56
  Rodrigo Hagar: space, so we're trying to have a, yeah, I think that it's, we have, so we're trying to have a, to have support in that processes, you know, when you're, yeah.
• 13:02
  Rodrigo Hagar: When you're knowing mushrooms because the body reacts to them and, and sometimes you are ready for them, I think, and sometimes.
• 13:08
  Rodrigo Hagar: You don't, you know, and, and in my experience, they always move something in you.
• 13:13
  Rodrigo Hagar: It's like a, it's like a therapeutic intervention in some sense that, that needs further elaboration maybe.
• 13:19
  Rodrigo Hagar: Or, or, or see that you are in, in a good place to have them, I think.
• 13:23
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 13:24
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah, definitely.
• 13:25
  Tracy Cartwright: When you are meeting people and they're asking you what you do.
• 13:29
  Tracy Cartwright: Maybe you go to a dinner and they say, so what do you do?
• 13:33
  Tracy Cartwright: How do you explain Family Constellation?
• 13:35
  Rodrigo Hagar: Well, I always say, yeah, that's a very good question.
• 13:38
  Rodrigo Hagar: I always say that Family Constellations is a method, a therapeutic intervention that um, that works with the way in which the family past is influencing your present.
• 13:51
  Rodrigo Hagar: So.
• 13:52
  Rodrigo Hagar: From a problem that you have, you open a field to exploring which way that unconscious forces that it's always acting on you appear, and in some way may have to be or be in relationship with your, your trouble, you know, your act of trouble.
• 14:07
  Rodrigo Hagar: And I think that that's it.
• 14:09
  Rodrigo Hagar: Yeah.
• 14:09
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm-hmm.
• 14:10
  Tracy Cartwright: I love, there are so many different ways to describe it, and yet it all means the same thing.
• 14:15
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm-hmm.
• 14:16
  Tracy Cartwright: When you understand it, I guess.
• 14:17
  Tracy Cartwright: But, and I, and I always ask that question because I think, I feel like someone will describe it in a certain way, and there'll be someone that hears that and just goes, boom, like bulb.
• 14:27
  Tracy Cartwright: I get that.
• 14:28
  Tracy Cartwright: And then
• 14:29
  Rodrigo Hagar: mm-hmm.
• 14:29
  Tracy Cartwright: I'll hear it from someone else.
• 14:31
  Tracy Cartwright: Will hear it from someone else and it's, and it's the same for them, you know, like
• 14:35
  Rodrigo Hagar: Yeah, yeah.
• 14:36
  Rodrigo Hagar: From another dimension or from another point of view.
• 14:38
  Rodrigo Hagar: Yeah,
• 14:39
  Tracy Cartwright: absolutely.
• 14:39
  Rodrigo Hagar: Yeah.
• 14:39
  Rodrigo Hagar: There, there are a lot of forms and, and well, sometimes what I do is like trying to explain a little bit more now about how, how, what happens.
• 14:48
  Rodrigo Hagar: I think that there's a notion about how life works.
• 14:50
  Rodrigo Hagar: In, in this, in this kind of work, if I go to a dinner with, I dunno, transpersonal psychologist or with other facilitators in family constellations with very, very different from people that I don't know, uh, don't know the method.
• 15:05
  Rodrigo Hagar: So yeah.
• 15:06
  Rodrigo Hagar: Um, I think that, um, there's a notion about how life works that is, that's very part of this and uh, and has to be with.
• 15:15
  Rodrigo Hagar: I don't know.
• 15:15
  Rodrigo Hagar: Life knows, life learns and it's in continuous movement, you know, learning about the experiences and, and we are kind of instruments of life that need to help that learning to happen.
• 15:28
  Rodrigo Hagar: And in the sense that we don't contribute with our consciousness to that learning.
• 15:33
  Rodrigo Hagar: We make symptoms about it, you know, without behaviors, with our bodies.
• 15:37
  Rodrigo Hagar: And, and I think that that's dynamic notion for me is very useful.
• 15:41
  Rodrigo Hagar: I try to.
• 15:43
  Rodrigo Hagar: To also share it in my, in my trainings, in my,
• 15:45
  Tracy Cartwright: mm-hmm.
• 15:46
  Tracy Cartwright: So you are teaching constellations?
• 15:48
  Rodrigo Hagar: Yeah.
• 15:48
  Rodrigo Hagar: I missed to, to, to tell you that I, I have a training since 2019 in Chile.
• 15:54
  Rodrigo Hagar: Um, and now, well, we have it in two cities in here in Chile, in, in Pocan.
• 15:59
  Rodrigo Hagar: That's a city very next to Vi Rica, where I live in the south and in Santiago.
• 16:03
  Rodrigo Hagar: That's the, the capital in, in Chile.
• 16:05
  Rodrigo Hagar: So, well, I've been seven years.
• 16:08
  Rodrigo Hagar: Offering this training and, and now.
• 16:10
  Rodrigo Hagar: Wonderful.
• 16:11
  Rodrigo Hagar: We have an institute in here in Chile called Institute.
• 16:14
  Rodrigo Hagar: That means like, well, means butterfly, but means Seoul, and it means psyche in Oh, wow.
• 16:19
  Rodrigo Hagar: Yep.
• 16:20
  Rodrigo Hagar: In Italian.
• 16:21
  Rodrigo Hagar: And, um, and well, we have developed some training.
• 16:24
  Rodrigo Hagar: My wife also works with, with women, you know, in, in, in, in supporting women's processes.
• 16:31
  Rodrigo Hagar: And, and we have developed some training also in specialization, in family constellations, in trauma, especially in personal trauma and now in collective trauma and other issues for, for already trained facilitators.
• 16:44
  Rodrigo Hagar: So,
• 16:44
  Tracy Cartwright: oh, so is your wife a facilitator also?
• 16:47
  Rodrigo Hagar: No, no family constellation.
• 16:49
  Rodrigo Hagar: She's, she's also a psychotherapist and, um, and works a lot with, with women's circles, you know, with, uh, uterus healing and all that, that approach.
• 16:59
  Rodrigo Hagar: And it's also, she also works in the, in the psycho.
• 17:03
  Rodrigo Hagar: Uh, juridical area, you know, and, and, uh, with, with lawyers and all that I know to spell it the
• 17:09
  Tracy Cartwright: judicial area.
• 17:10
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah,
• 17:11
  Rodrigo Hagar: yeah.
• 17:11
  Rodrigo Hagar: Judicial area and from, from the psychology and, and wealth.
• 17:14
  Rodrigo Hagar: So she makes a very fine integration in the two worlds, you know?
• 17:18
  Rodrigo Hagar: And
• 17:18
  Tracy Cartwright: does, that's like two very different worlds, isn't it?
• 17:21
  Tracy Cartwright: From
• 17:21
  Rodrigo Hagar: Seem to be No, but but yeah.
• 17:23
  Rodrigo Hagar: Judicial
• 17:23
  Tracy Cartwright: to worm work.
• 17:25
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 17:26
  Tracy Cartwright: But
• 17:26
  Rodrigo Hagar: yeah, that's right.
• 17:27
  Rodrigo Hagar: And if you look at it, uh, there's, uh, some points that cross both areas.
• 17:32
  Rodrigo Hagar: For example, the, I don't know, to to know your own rights.
• 17:36
  Rodrigo Hagar: In what, in what respects to your body, in what respect to, to, uh, having a place in society, in what place has in society.
• 17:45
  Rodrigo Hagar: I don't know all the.
• 17:46
  Rodrigo Hagar: Old and ancient knowledge of women, you know, about nature, about processes, change, transformation, uh, et cetera, et cetera.
• 17:54
  Rodrigo Hagar: Well, it's, it's her area.
• 17:56
  Rodrigo Hagar: I know, but, but it's been wonderful seeing her, unifying this, this fields that.
• 18:01
  Rodrigo Hagar: I don't know this, this kind of, I, I think that we shared that, you know, and not also in, not only in doing family, but in, in our institute of like a spirituality with critical thinking.
• 18:12
  Rodrigo Hagar: You know, it's like kind of not getting rid of critical thinking, uh, because it, it does not have to be.
• 18:19
  Rodrigo Hagar: In conflict know with, with profound spirituality, like
• 18:22
  Tracy Cartwright: yeah.
• 18:23
  Rodrigo Hagar: But it has to be in service, I think of the soul, not vice versa, but with the conflict rises when it's vice versa, you know?
• 18:30
  Rodrigo Hagar: So, well that's what she does.
• 18:31
  Rodrigo Hagar: Yeah.
• 18:32
  Rodrigo Hagar: Yeah.
• 18:33
  Tracy Cartwright: Fantastic.
• 18:34
  Tracy Cartwright: I was thinking about, um, when I met you and we and I came to your workshop and we were all sitting in there in the room and I realized I was one of the.
• 18:43
  Tracy Cartwright: I think at that time,
• 18:45
  Rodrigo Hagar: mm,
• 18:46
  Tracy Cartwright: at the beginning, I, there was only two people in the room that spoke English or three you, another La American lady who was living in South America and myself.
• 18:55
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm-hmm.
• 18:55
  Tracy Cartwright: And mm-hmm.
• 18:56
  Tracy Cartwright: Um, and I, I was really called to come to your workshop and
• 19:00
  Rodrigo Hagar: mm-hmm.
• 19:01
  Tracy Cartwright: Sitting there.
• 19:02
  Tracy Cartwright: And then, and then I, my friend came into the room and just as she came in was just, the lights went out and we were in a room with no windows.
• 19:12
  Tracy Cartwright: So it was like we, it was like, it was a fantastic, and, uh, and they stayed out for a good maybe minute, maybe two, I'm not sure.
• 19:22
  Rodrigo Hagar: Yeah, maybe,
• 19:23
  Tracy Cartwright: maybe five minutes.
• 19:24
  Rodrigo Hagar: Yeah.
• 19:25
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 19:26
  Tracy Cartwright: And then, uh, and when the lights came on, someone was already in the field and the constellation had started and I was really taken by surprise.
• 19:34
  Tracy Cartwright: And, but I, I also observed.
• 19:37
  Tracy Cartwright: Your response.
• 19:38
  Rodrigo Hagar: Yeah,
• 19:39
  Tracy Cartwright: because I was like, oh, my mind goes to, oh, how's road?
• 19:45
  Rodrigo Hagar: Thank you.
• 19:46
  Tracy Cartwright: And you handled it so beautifully because, you know, uh, you may have had an idea of what you were gonna do for that day, but the, the field completely took over.
• 19:57
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 19:58
  Tracy Cartwright: Completely.
• 19:58
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 19:59
  Rodrigo Hagar: Yeah, that was, that was just the case.
• 20:02
  Rodrigo Hagar: Know, I, I had the, this, this structure of the workshop, it was, it was going to be about personal trauma that was an issue that we have been working in in 2025.
• 20:11
  Rodrigo Hagar: 2025. And um, and, well, I have this stage one, stage two, you know, and I tried to go from that stages to the other.
• 20:19
  Rodrigo Hagar: And, um, and, well first the light turned off and it was okay, so well let, I, I, I remember saying something like, let's, let's get, thanks for this.
• 20:29
  Rodrigo Hagar: No, let's, let's surrender to this.
• 20:31
  Rodrigo Hagar: Um, and well, the, then this person get very, very taken, you know, with the, with just very
• 20:37
  Tracy Cartwright: activated.
• 20:39
  Rodrigo Hagar: Very activated, and she was not the only one in the first place.
• 20:43
  Rodrigo Hagar: I thought, okay, I, I, I received that and I, and I tried to do some work.
• 20:48
  Rodrigo Hagar: Then it was kind of resolved the movement of her that, that she was take very taken with an indigenous anger, you know?
• 20:55
  Rodrigo Hagar: And um, and then, um,
• 20:57
  Tracy Cartwright: so if I remember rightly, just about every South American country was actually represented in that room somehow, right?
• 21:05
  Tracy Cartwright: There was people from all different, maybe not all of them, but from a large percentage.
• 21:10
  Tracy Cartwright: It wasn't just Mexicans or people from Chile.
• 21:14
  Tracy Cartwright: There was like people from all over South America.
• 21:17
  Tracy Cartwright: So it was quite, um, yeah, there was a lot that anger around.
• 21:22
  Tracy Cartwright: Colonization in the, yeah.
• 21:23
  Rodrigo Hagar: Anger.
• 21:24
  Rodrigo Hagar: Yeah, it was about that subject.
• 21:25
  Rodrigo Hagar: It was finally a constellation about, about systemic trauma, you know, collective systemic trauma, uh, around the indigenous trauma.
• 21:33
  Rodrigo Hagar: And, um, and, and also about the forgiveness.
• 21:35
  Rodrigo Hagar: I think about the, in, in, in what it, or at least some kind of reconciliation.
• 21:40
  Rodrigo Hagar: Um, and, and, well, well, I, I just renounced to that, to that program I had, uh, when I saw that after my intervention, nothing.
• 21:50
  Rodrigo Hagar: Uh, this, this issue was going to continue.
• 21:53
  Rodrigo Hagar: It's, it's, it's, uh, it's, uh, I don't know, pushing not to appear to in this place.
• 21:59
  Rodrigo Hagar: So, so I looked at the other people and there was a lot of people that was taking for this, with this, no, I, I remember some, some woman saying that.
• 22:08
  Rodrigo Hagar: He was like feeling, I don't know if you remember blood, and, um, and look of intense, uh, topics, issues that started to appear.
• 22:17
  Rodrigo Hagar: And, and well, it was, it was a great, uh, constellation.
• 22:20
  Rodrigo Hagar: I, I ended very grateful and, and surprised also.
• 22:23
  Rodrigo Hagar: Mm-hmm.
• 22:24
  Rodrigo Hagar: But very moved because the issue about systemic trauma is I think one of the, of the mainstreams of my interests right now.
• 22:32
  Rodrigo Hagar: And yeah.
• 22:33
  Rodrigo Hagar: And I'm working with it a lot.
• 22:35
  Rodrigo Hagar: I've, I've also worked with it in 2025 with, with, uh, with another colleague in here with fe, who's also a, a psychologist.
• 22:44
  Rodrigo Hagar: And, um, and well, it appeared and it was very intense and I think I thought, okay, I have to take this.
• 22:50
  Rodrigo Hagar: It seems that it's like kind of looking for me in, in some sense.
• 22:53
  Rodrigo Hagar: Yeah.
• 22:54
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 22:54
  Rodrigo Hagar: And, and we'll take that.
• 22:56
  Rodrigo Hagar: And, and now in for this year, I, I put a new, a new part of my training that has to be, especially.
• 23:03
  Rodrigo Hagar: Specifically with systemic trauma, and I, I will, I think that I have to work in it.
• 23:08
  Rodrigo Hagar: And it was very beautiful also because, uh, well, all the people that was in there was very moved.
• 23:13
  Rodrigo Hagar: You also had a very main paper in the, in the, in the calculation.
• 23:18
  Rodrigo Hagar: I remember main,
• 23:19
  Tracy Cartwright: a main part I didn't like.
• 23:21
  Tracy Cartwright: I remember standing there going, because most of it wasn't in English.
• 23:26
  Tracy Cartwright: And that was fine.
• 23:27
  Tracy Cartwright: That was absolutely fine.
• 23:29
  Tracy Cartwright: And it was, it was that real.
• 23:30
  Tracy Cartwright: I had to really, I just had to drop out of my human ego, you know, like
• 23:35
  Rodrigo Hagar: mm-hmm.
• 23:35
  Rodrigo Hagar: Mm-hmm.
• 23:36
  Tracy Cartwright: Because that, there was one moment I'm going, what am I doing here?
• 23:39
  Tracy Cartwright: Am I meant to be here?
• 23:40
  Tracy Cartwright: Is this the right place for me?
• 23:41
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm-hmm.
• 23:41
  Tracy Cartwright: And I just, as soon as I asked that question, I got pulled energetically around to the other side of the room and I was like, oh, yeah, okay.
• 23:49
  Rodrigo Hagar: Yeah.
• 23:49
  Tracy Cartwright: I need to be here.
• 23:50
  Rodrigo Hagar: Yeah, it was, it was very k kind of also like kind of psychedelic experience, you know?
• 23:55
  Rodrigo Hagar: It was like very, very intense for everyone, I think.
• 23:58
  Rodrigo Hagar: And, um, but I think because we, we, we kind of created the space to that to happen.
• 24:03
  Rodrigo Hagar: I think, I don't know if, if that kind of experience can happen every day.
• 24:06
  Rodrigo Hagar: You know, we.
• 24:07
  Rodrigo Hagar: We were all trained facilitators maybe.
• 24:09
  Rodrigo Hagar: And, and that, that gave space to that.
• 24:12
  Rodrigo Hagar: I think I'm, I'm thinking about it.
• 24:14
  Rodrigo Hagar: And it was like, well,
• 24:15
  Tracy Cartwright: the right people, the right, the right people came together for that to be held.
• 24:20
  Tracy Cartwright: And you held it so beautifully.
• 24:21
  Tracy Cartwright: It was, it was an amazing
• 24:23
  Rodrigo Hagar: thank you,
• 24:24
  Tracy Cartwright: um, process to witness.
• 24:26
  Tracy Cartwright: And you also, you sang as well, you had, um, your guitar, I think, if I remember rightly.
• 24:32
  Tracy Cartwright: Is that right?
• 24:33
  Rodrigo Hagar: It's a drum.
• 24:33
  Rodrigo Hagar: A
• 24:34
  Tracy Cartwright: drum
• 24:34
  Rodrigo Hagar: drum.
• 24:34
  Tracy Cartwright: A drum drum.
• 24:35
  Tracy Cartwright: Had a drum.
• 24:35
  Tracy Cartwright: That's right.
• 24:35
  Rodrigo Hagar: Yeah.
• 24:37
  Tracy Cartwright: I knew you hit some instrument, but, and you, mm-hmm.
• 24:40
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah, it was beautiful.
• 24:41
  Tracy Cartwright: Really, really beautiful.
• 24:42
  Rodrigo Hagar: Yeah, it's wonderful.
• 24:43
  Rodrigo Hagar: It was wonderful.
• 24:44
  Rodrigo Hagar: I, I think, and sorry, it made me make a shift, I think in, in my work, like I, I have already been introducing more and more my singing.
• 24:54
  Rodrigo Hagar: My drums.
• 24:55
  Rodrigo Hagar: And from that, from October 25, I, I don't know, I now, it's much more present than before.
• 25:01
  Rodrigo Hagar: Uh, so I use it a lot and, and it's closer to what I'm doing.
• 25:05
  Rodrigo Hagar: And not in all, not in all constellations.
• 25:08
  Rodrigo Hagar: I used it, I used it, the singing or the drums, but, but it's very much closer.
• 25:14
  Tracy Cartwright: Well, that's the same for me as well.
• 25:15
  Tracy Cartwright: Once I, once I said yes.
• 25:18
  Tracy Cartwright: To it because it was, it was kept coming up into the field.
• 25:20
  Tracy Cartwright: It kept pulling me to, you know, like even just making a drum, having a drum was
• 25:26
  Rodrigo Hagar: mm-hmm.
• 25:26
  Tracy Cartwright: The field talking to me saying I needed it.
• 25:28
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm-hmm.
• 25:28
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm-hmm.
• 25:29
  Tracy Cartwright: And then my voice, you know, like bringing the sounds through and, um, once very
• 25:35
  Rodrigo Hagar: powerful
• 25:35
  Tracy Cartwright: voice, it, it, it really enhances and makes it so much more powerful 'cause you're cutting through right with the energy of your, of sound and, um.
• 25:46
  Tracy Cartwright: And allowing the, the drum to support.
• 25:48
  Rodrigo Hagar: Yeah, I think that that, that, that's one of the, the contents of family constellations or systemic constellations in general, that I'm, that I most have, have taken the most of my love in this moment.
• 25:59
  Rodrigo Hagar: You know, it's like, um, that, that part that has to be with rituals, with, uh, with like kind of gathering as a community, uh, singing.
• 26:10
  Rodrigo Hagar: Yeah, listening to the sounds healing or making integrations, thanks to the, to the sounds.
• 26:17
  Rodrigo Hagar: Uh, I, I, I think I had this like very intense experiences in Mexico.
• 26:22
  Rodrigo Hagar: These three, there were like three days that were very intense for me, and Tuesday I had.
• 26:27
  Rodrigo Hagar: My own experience with, with Alexandra from, from Brazil who did this workshop.
• 26:32
  Rodrigo Hagar: And I was very moved, you know, with it has it had to be with singing also.
• 26:37
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm.
• 26:37
  Rodrigo Hagar: You know, uh, the next day I was very moved in the inner and I did this workshop that where the, I don't know, this collective and unconscious eruption happened, you know, and, and it was, okay, I will give it, I will give myself to this.
• 26:50
  Rodrigo Hagar: I will surrender.
• 26:51
  Rodrigo Hagar: Um, and it was very moving.
• 26:53
  Rodrigo Hagar: And, and the day afterwards I had the, your workshop about the mountain constellations.
• 26:59
  Rodrigo Hagar: That was very, very moving.
• 27:01
  Rodrigo Hagar: Also for me, I will say to you that I, I haven't said, said it to you before, but, uh, it, it had, I'm still working on it, you know, like yeah, this contact with the inner mountains.
• 27:12
  Rodrigo Hagar: Personal and an ancient mountains and personal and an ancient rivers.
• 27:16
  Rodrigo Hagar: You know, I, I like making kind of spoiler of your workshop, you know, but was very, very moving.
• 27:21
  Rodrigo Hagar: Beautiful.
• 27:21
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 27:21
  Rodrigo Hagar: Very moving and, and like, made me confirm belief that I have a hypothesis that family constellations has all to be with nature with some kind of structure of nature.
• 27:33
  Rodrigo Hagar: Working in US and families are not divorced from that, from that order, from that structure.
• 27:40
  Rodrigo Hagar: So,
• 27:40
  Tracy Cartwright: yeah.
• 27:40
  Tracy Cartwright: So I don't know if you've heard, I know you've heard some of my podcasts and I share that for me, I know that the work came through bertling, that in the form that we know it as in family constellations and the psychology and all of that.
• 27:56
  Tracy Cartwright: But for me it's ancient.
• 27:58
  Tracy Cartwright: It comes from our people of the fire.
• 28:03
  Tracy Cartwright: I believe that we are tapping into that, you know, into that multidimensional field and tapping into the wisdoms and the, the things that our ancestors would have just, it would've been so natural and, and that for them.
• 28:15
  Tracy Cartwright: And as we've come into civilized, civilized quite, yeah.
• 28:19
  Tracy Cartwright: Um, we've lost that a lot.
• 28:21
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 28:21
  Tracy Cartwright: So, and Helen bought it, bought the threads back.
• 28:27
  Tracy Cartwright: And in a way that could be understood in a more modern way.
• 28:30
  Tracy Cartwright: And then some of us are finding our way back through with the energy side of it, the medicine that comes in it as well.
• 28:36
  Tracy Cartwright: You know, I'm not gonna say shamanism because I, there's, there's a lot to do with that.
• 28:41
  Tracy Cartwright: And it is that, I guess, in that way.
• 28:43
  Tracy Cartwright: But, um,
• 28:44
  Rodrigo Hagar: yeah, yeah, I, I believe so.
• 28:46
  Rodrigo Hagar: There are there points of conventions between, between both forms?
• 28:49
  Rodrigo Hagar: Between both forms, shamanism and family constellation or systemic constellations?
• 28:53
  Rodrigo Hagar: There are encounter points I think.
• 28:56
  Rodrigo Hagar: Well, and
• 28:57
  Tracy Cartwright: some facilitators come at it strictly from a theoretical, um, psychology angle.
• 29:06
  Rodrigo Hagar: Yeah.
• 29:07
  Tracy Cartwright: And others can blend the two.
• 29:09
  Rodrigo Hagar: Yeah.
• 29:10
  Rodrigo Hagar: Yeah.
• 29:10
  Rodrigo Hagar: I, I, I love to, to think that both sides can get into dialogue, you know, and, and join together.
• 29:17
  Rodrigo Hagar: For me, the psyche, you know, I'm a psychologist and that, that side is never away from me.
• 29:23
  Rodrigo Hagar: I, I like, look like a psychologist a lot what I do, but for me, the psyche doesn't end in the, in the individual real arm.
• 29:32
  Rodrigo Hagar: And, and going farther than inclusive.
• 29:35
  Rodrigo Hagar: Inclusive, um, social psychology, it has to be with spirituality and the psyche is, are reality in itself.
• 29:41
  Rodrigo Hagar: So I'm, I'm very much jian in that sense, you know, uh, more than, I dunno, classical, cognitive, or you, you know, like behavior apps, psychology.
• 29:51
  Rodrigo Hagar: Um, so, well, I, I, I, I relate the same.
• 29:54
  Rodrigo Hagar: We cannot, I, I, I try to do my trainings disintegration, you know, between, uh, like a kind of well grounded theoretical background, but with, uh, with a very alive experience.
• 30:07
  Rodrigo Hagar: You know, it's like you don't have to divorce both three arms.
• 30:10
  Rodrigo Hagar: Uh, I think that, uh, I believe that premise, there's like, uh, less things, few things are more practical than a good theory, and that's in some senses, you know, like, let you move.
• 30:21
  Rodrigo Hagar: In what you're doing.
• 30:22
  Rodrigo Hagar: But I think that that theory has to be in service of the, of, for the soul, you know?
• 30:28
  Rodrigo Hagar: Um,
• 30:28
  Tracy Cartwright: yeah,
• 30:29
  Rodrigo Hagar: like, uh, a good, the good place of reason has to have in the, in our, in our world.
• 30:35
  Rodrigo Hagar: And I think it's completely overvalued and, um, I don't know, in, in, in all the corners, maybe it, it doesn't have to be in all the corners.
• 30:43
  Rodrigo Hagar: Um.
• 30:44
  Rodrigo Hagar: So much.
• 30:45
  Tracy Cartwright: I, I, I concur.
• 30:47
  Tracy Cartwright: How have you seen, um, family Constellations, if you don't mind sharing?
• 30:52
  Tracy Cartwright: How's it
• 30:53
  Rodrigo Hagar: mm-hmm.
• 30:53
  Tracy Cartwright: Have you seen it shift or, or evolve through your own family system?
• 31:00
  Rodrigo Hagar: I think that family Constellations clearly made me, uh, do some switch some, uh, in my life.
• 31:08
  Rodrigo Hagar: Um.
• 31:09
  Rodrigo Hagar: After a workshop where I assisted in, I don't know, 2008, something like that.
• 31:14
  Rodrigo Hagar: I had this image of.
• 31:16
  Rodrigo Hagar: Like going to take my life and, and my, my family, like getting in my back, you know, like supporting me and, and, but, but me also like saying to no, to a lot of things in my family already.
• 31:28
  Rodrigo Hagar: That was something that, um, that I hadn't, uh, integrated since that moment.
• 31:33
  Rodrigo Hagar: Like, I, I was like this kind of bad interpretation of hellinger words about like, submission, you know, like taking your family.
• 31:41
  Rodrigo Hagar: Without, uh, without differentiating what's, what's, uh, yours and what's not yours in some sense, you know, I. In that, in that sense, I'm very close to the work of Wilfred Neils.
• 31:51
  Rodrigo Hagar: I don't know if he about, you know, the no to the father.
• 31:55
  Rodrigo Hagar: It's like, or to the mother, the no, to our parents.
• 31:57
  Rodrigo Hagar: It's also important to then take them completely.
• 32:00
  Rodrigo Hagar: If we cannot differentiate from them, uh, uh, it's, it's more difficult to be, to make an honest, uh, grounding in our own life.
• 32:08
  Rodrigo Hagar: So I had this experience where I, I could advance and after that workshop I. It took a lot of radical decisions, you know, like it was, I was very taken with that, this movement.
• 32:20
  Rodrigo Hagar: So I, uh, I was living with my parents.
• 32:22
  Rodrigo Hagar: I, I had 26 years, I went, uh, I, I lived home, you know, I, I ended a relationship.
• 32:30
  Rodrigo Hagar: I quit my job.
• 32:31
  Rodrigo Hagar: It was like, whoa, something like, uh, grew from me, from the inside out.
• 32:38
  Rodrigo Hagar: And, well, I had this, this great shift in my life and, and start living in another way and, and music arise with more force.
• 32:45
  Rodrigo Hagar: I, I wrote my first book and I feel like a lot of things happened.
• 32:49
  Rodrigo Hagar: And, and now I will say that, uh, family constellations help me every day to, to be more conscious in what I'm doing, especially with my kids.
• 33:00
  Rodrigo Hagar: It's like, in that sense, I always like.
• 33:03
  Rodrigo Hagar: Try to refer to what I'm doing in this, in this, in this, uh, work to, to look to my daily life in a different way.
• 33:11
  Rodrigo Hagar: Um, and it, it has helped me a lot.
• 33:13
  Rodrigo Hagar: I, I also, I, I always use it, you know, and, and it's very, uh, healing to me to, to offer workshops and return home.
• 33:21
  Rodrigo Hagar: You know, it's like I, I get home with new energies, you know, and, and looking to my kids in a more ordered way.
• 33:27
  Rodrigo Hagar: It go, this is a Saturday, you know, Saturday, Sunday, uh, Thursday.
• 33:31
  Rodrigo Hagar: I, I'm already gay, rather getting involved again in, in all the things that I have to look, mainly the work with my shadows, you know?
• 33:38
  Rodrigo Hagar: And, um, yeah.
• 33:39
  Rodrigo Hagar: And well, when I return to work, I think that that light opens again.
• 33:43
  Rodrigo Hagar: So, so I think that it has, it's, it is doing some something.
• 33:47
  Rodrigo Hagar: I, I don't think.
• 33:48
  Rodrigo Hagar: Uh, I, I have trouble in seeing like, accomplishments in, in that war, in that sense, know of, of what family Constellations had brought to me.
• 33:57
  Rodrigo Hagar: I think that I'm doing this work, but I, but I, I, I, I'm very much an apprentice of, of life, I think, uh, yet, uh, bringing up ring, bringing up my children and, and sharing with my wife, and it's like.
• 34:13
  Rodrigo Hagar: I try to do what
• 34:14
  Tracy Cartwright: I just, it's amazing.
• 34:16
  Tracy Cartwright: Beautiful.
• 34:16
  Tracy Cartwright: That your children get to benefit from, you know, all of this and the, the awareness and the consciousness of what you are and how you parent and how you show up in the world.
• 34:27
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm-hmm.
• 34:28
  Tracy Cartwright: And the difference that that makes for your children and, and your future generations.
• 34:32
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 34:33
  Rodrigo Hagar: Yeah.
• 34:34
  Rodrigo Hagar: I hope so.
• 34:34
  Rodrigo Hagar: I hope so.
• 34:35
  Rodrigo Hagar: I hope they, well, when they go to the psychologist at, at the age of 23, they can, they can have a.
• 34:43
  Rodrigo Hagar: A good process, you know?
• 34:45
  Rodrigo Hagar: And, uh, I don't know.
• 34:46
  Rodrigo Hagar: I, I can go to the sessions, you know, and, and, and participate now.
• 34:50
  Rodrigo Hagar: Yeah.
• 34:50
  Rodrigo Hagar: That's the, they're hoping, and that I can, I can see them in their autonomy, you know, it's like, I, I think that's maybe the most challenging, uh, issues of being a parent, at least for me.
• 35:02
  Rodrigo Hagar: It's like knowing them, you know, how are they?
• 35:04
  Rodrigo Hagar: And, and how can I help them to be who they are?
• 35:08
  Rodrigo Hagar: Uh, it's so easy, maybe sometimes to repeat this, this patterns, you know, being like, you know, your own father, mother, and, and
• 35:17
  Tracy Cartwright: sometimes it's so, it's so, um, unconscious.
• 35:21
  Tracy Cartwright: Right?
• 35:21
  Tracy Cartwright: It's that blind love.
• 35:22
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 35:22
  Tracy Cartwright: And we don't realize how much we are being that, like that person.
• 35:26
  Rodrigo Hagar: Yeah.
• 35:27
  Rodrigo Hagar: Oh, a lot.
• 35:28
  Rodrigo Hagar: And maybe we have to.
• 35:30
  Rodrigo Hagar: To be this insight afterwards, you know, you see what we have done.
• 35:33
  Rodrigo Hagar: Oh yeah.
• 35:34
  Rodrigo Hagar: I was, I was pretty much like my father, you know, it was my mother speaking for me.
• 35:39
  Rodrigo Hagar: And I think that that awareness, as you said is, is, is gold.
• 35:42
  Rodrigo Hagar: You know?
• 35:43
  Rodrigo Hagar: It's gold for our children if we can like, kind of not, not, uh, not get rid of it, but, but going forward.
• 35:49
  Rodrigo Hagar: Oh, like, like I, I remember
• 35:51
  Tracy Cartwright: just that, that sport in like a memory for me.
• 35:55
  Tracy Cartwright: 'cause I had a real journey with drugs and alcohol and stuff.
• 35:59
  Tracy Cartwright: And at, at one point I was in a real, I will say that when the, in the height of it, I had a moment when I heard you were just like, dad and I, I went to argue with that voice.
• 36:15
  Rodrigo Hagar: Mm-hmm.
• 36:16
  Tracy Cartwright: And I realized.
• 36:17
  Tracy Cartwright: Oh.
• 36:18
  Tracy Cartwright: 'cause that was, that would've been the one thing I was trying to avoid, you know?
• 36:23
  Rodrigo Hagar: Mm-hmm.
• 36:23
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm-hmm.
• 36:23
  Tracy Cartwright: What was, you know, my dad had had his addictions as well.
• 36:27
  Rodrigo Hagar: Yeah.
• 36:28
  Tracy Cartwright: And then I realized I was just being like him.
• 36:31
  Tracy Cartwright: And when I was able to acknowledge that and take that in, and now I know that it was a way, an unconscious way of being closer to him because on the, on the human level, we, uh, there, there he wasn't, there wasn't the capacity for that at that time.
• 36:47
  Tracy Cartwright: But then once I got to that point and then that shifted and I started to, to take a different direction and then, because I think part of me had also held dad in that space of where he had been, but he'd moved on as well.
• 37:01
  Tracy Cartwright: He'd moved on, was being a different, very different person, but I was stuck in that this is the relationship and, and so I started to move on as well, and then we started to be able to converge and have a DA very different relationship, so that
• 37:15
  Rodrigo Hagar: mm-hmm.
• 37:15
  Tracy Cartwright: That realizing that unconsciousness of being like your parents and, and having those.
• 37:22
  Tracy Cartwright: Unwanted, but, uh, can be very useful insights.
• 37:26
  Rodrigo Hagar: Well, it's the, it's the way in which we unconsciously belong.
• 37:29
  Rodrigo Hagar: You know, I think, and, and it's, uh, in, in my experience, it, it, it's like a so soft and innocent way of loving.
• 37:38
  Rodrigo Hagar: The way in which we can be able to sacrifice ourselves.
• 37:41
  Rodrigo Hagar: You know, it's like really wanting to, to go with our parents in that movement.
• 37:46
  Rodrigo Hagar: It's, it's the way we have, the way we know to love.
• 37:50
  Rodrigo Hagar: And, uh, and I, and I think that acknowledging that with love, with, with compassion, uh, maybe, maybe, what's your case?
• 37:58
  Rodrigo Hagar: Not like we, it led us to do another movement to take our own lives.
• 38:04
  Rodrigo Hagar: So well, well, thank you for sharing me that.
• 38:06
  Rodrigo Hagar: I was like very, very moving.
• 38:09
  Rodrigo Hagar: I think that, um, that, that work may be, uh.
• 38:15
  Rodrigo Hagar: It's progressive in, in life.
• 38:17
  Rodrigo Hagar: I think that we will find another stuff when we get older.
• 38:21
  Rodrigo Hagar: You know,
• 38:22
  Tracy Cartwright: there'll be another layer of it.
• 38:23
  Tracy Cartwright: Oh, I've done that on online.
• 38:24
  Rodrigo Hagar: Of course.
• 38:25
  Rodrigo Hagar: Yeah, for sure.
• 38:26
  Rodrigo Hagar: Yeah.
• 38:27
  Rodrigo Hagar: I, I always get kind of su with, with suspicion, you know, when, when somebody tells me, you, no, I've already had the conation of my father, you know, I've already had the constellation of my mother.
• 38:37
  Rodrigo Hagar: It's done.
• 38:38
  Rodrigo Hagar: You know, like Bert Hellinger said it like.
• 38:41
  Rodrigo Hagar: Wait for death to, to say that you are ready with all that.
• 38:44
  Rodrigo Hagar: No.
• 38:45
  Tracy Cartwright: Yes.
• 38:46
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 38:46
  Tracy Cartwright: Lifelong learner.
• 38:47
  Tracy Cartwright: Gosh.
• 38:48
  Tracy Cartwright: And it, and it's, it's, yeah, so much.
• 38:51
  Tracy Cartwright: There's so much to unpeel, but it makes life, it makes life entertaining at times and interesting.
• 38:58
  Tracy Cartwright: And
• 38:59
  Rodrigo Hagar: I think that that's my
• 39:01
  Tracy Cartwright: great
• 39:02
  Rodrigo Hagar: grateful, wonderful.
• 39:04
  Rodrigo Hagar: Wonderful.
• 39:04
  Rodrigo Hagar: Maybe the, all these practices led us to, to go, uh, to have a nice time in the ocean.
• 39:10
  Rodrigo Hagar: You know, it's like, uh, having a way to, to dive in it.
• 39:14
  Rodrigo Hagar: And, but finally it's so, it's so big and intense and chaotic.
• 39:20
  Rodrigo Hagar: How life unfolds itself.
• 39:22
  Rodrigo Hagar: That, um, then the best we can do is to know how to live it, uh, enjoying it.
• 39:27
  Rodrigo Hagar: I think being also chaotic and, and being in good terms with our own chaos with, uh, with the parts we like and the ones where we don't, that.
• 39:37
  Rodrigo Hagar: Sometimes very difficult, you know, to be cons competitive with oneself.
• 39:41
  Rodrigo Hagar: But I think when that, when we do that something, something, uh, unblocks, you know, something like starts to flow in a different way.
• 39:49
  Rodrigo Hagar: And, um, I think that maybe family constellations, systemic constellations, uh, are ways of, of, of like, as, as Hellinger said, like receiving these gifts from truth.
• 40:01
  Rodrigo Hagar: But truth is something like very ephemeral, you know, that appears and then returns back.
• 40:05
  Rodrigo Hagar: So that gives, let us dive better, you know, and, and maybe in some sense have this glimpse or, uh, that progressively start to be the way in which we breathe our life, where we live, our life, you know?
• 40:19
  Rodrigo Hagar: Um, so well welcome chaos.
• 40:21
  Rodrigo Hagar: You know, we have to
• 40:23
  Tracy Cartwright: welcome to chaos.
• 40:24
  Rodrigo Hagar: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 40:25
  Rodrigo Hagar: The mistake and all that stuff.
• 40:27
  Rodrigo Hagar: Yeah,
• 40:28
  Tracy Cartwright: yeah.
• 40:28
  Tracy Cartwright: Absolutely.
• 40:30
  Tracy Cartwright: Absolutely.
• 40:30
  Tracy Cartwright: It's hard like.
• 40:32
  Tracy Cartwright: Well, I think when you had this conversation with someone a little while ago about, you know, once you know through a constellation lens, it's very difficult to, uh, to unsee things in cons through that lens.
• 40:44
  Tracy Cartwright: You know, if that's the filter that you are looking through.
• 40:48
  Rodrigo Hagar: Yeah, I believe, I believe the same.
• 40:49
  Rodrigo Hagar: See, yeah.
• 40:51
  Rodrigo Hagar: That, that, that shifts our form of saying things.
• 40:54
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 40:55
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 40:55
  Tracy Cartwright: Um, tell me a little bit more about your music.
• 40:58
  Tracy Cartwright: I'd love to hear about that and maybe, mm-hmm.
• 41:00
  Tracy Cartwright: Drop some lines here for people to be able to find you.
• 41:04
  Tracy Cartwright: I think you said you're on Spotify.
• 41:07
  Rodrigo Hagar: Great.
• 41:07
  Rodrigo Hagar: Yeah.
• 41:07
  Rodrigo Hagar: Um, you can follow me always in, in Instagram.
• 41:11
  Rodrigo Hagar: It's, it's a more, the easiest way.
• 41:13
  Rodrigo Hagar: Uh, Rodrigo Agar.
• 41:14
  Rodrigo Hagar: Rodrigo, H-A-G-A-R, altogether.
• 41:20
  Rodrigo Hagar: And then with my name in YouTube also, you can find my music, Rodrigo Agar with h in the beginning.
• 41:27
  Rodrigo Hagar: Um, and well, I, I've always been a musician, I think of when I was a kid, I don't know, five years old, six years old.
• 41:33
  Rodrigo Hagar: I, I like, started to invent my own music in my head and then I started to, to play the, the piano and, and then the guitar and, and singing a lot.
• 41:44
  Rodrigo Hagar: I also composed when with, um, in that, in that.
• 41:48
  Rodrigo Hagar: Yes, at s uh, I, I used like with the computer, so I had this, this, I had, I could write music directly with like orchestral music, with, I dunno, violence and, and bass and, uh, electric guitars and drums.
• 42:02
  Rodrigo Hagar: So I had like this compositor part, uh, of, of musician and, and also zen.
• 42:08
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 42:09
  Rodrigo Hagar: Composer, sorry, composer.
• 42:10
  Rodrigo Hagar: And, and also like singing and, and playing the guitar and, well, I've done a lot of music and also being part of some groups, uh, with, with whom we want some, some fans here in Chile.
• 42:22
  Rodrigo Hagar: So we, we recorded, uh, uh, our, our cd, you know, our, our records and
• 42:28
  Tracy Cartwright: yeah.
• 42:29
  Rodrigo Hagar: And we had some tours in Chile.
• 42:31
  Rodrigo Hagar: And well, and now, uh, music is very intense because I always have the, have this like kind of spiritual relationship with music, especially with drums.
• 42:40
  Rodrigo Hagar: Uh, I knew the djembe in, I don't know, 20 years ago.
• 42:44
  Rodrigo Hagar: I don't know the djembe if you know it, it's this African drum.
• 42:47
  Rodrigo Hagar: Yeah.
• 42:47
  Rodrigo Hagar: And, uh, and I started to play it in, in that 2005, something like that, 2003.
• 42:54
  Rodrigo Hagar: And, uh, well, it's, it's kind of a way of getting very in touch with it, with my soul, with nature, with, uh, of doing, of catharsis for me and, and like expressing myself.
• 43:06
  Rodrigo Hagar: Um mm-hmm.
• 43:07
  Rodrigo Hagar: And, uh, I use it a lot in, in, in systemic facilitation.
• 43:10
  Rodrigo Hagar: Also know it's a way of, sometimes after a constellation, I play a little drum, a little singing too.
• 43:18
  Rodrigo Hagar: Kind of interpreted what, what has just happened.
• 43:21
  Rodrigo Hagar: You know, it's a way of, okay, let's, let's, let's do the digestion, you know, with music.
• 43:27
  Rodrigo Hagar: Yeah.
• 43:27
  Rodrigo Hagar: Is, is
• 43:27
  Tracy Cartwright: this for like, for a one-on-one or, or just in group?
• 43:31
  Rodrigo Hagar: Just in group?
• 43:31
  Rodrigo Hagar: Just in group.
• 43:32
  Rodrigo Hagar: I, I, I've never, I, I, I haven't, uh, thought that before.
• 43:37
  Rodrigo Hagar: Maybe I, I could, uh, I, I use it a lot with groups, uh, but maybe in the one-on-one, I, I, I have to be able to introduce it.
• 43:45
  Rodrigo Hagar: Well, I'm, I'm in the process, right?
• 43:46
  Rodrigo Hagar: Like kind of getting read since, I don't know, two years ago, three years ago of this, uh, role of the psychologist, you know, that sometimes get very, very formal.
• 43:56
  Rodrigo Hagar: I'm not, yeah.
• 43:57
  Rodrigo Hagar: Not being always, uh, too much formal, but well, as a humanistic psycho psychotherapist, you never can be too, too formal.
• 44:04
  Rodrigo Hagar: But, but well, the introduction of music, of course, that, that changed things.
• 44:09
  Rodrigo Hagar: So maybe I, I will do it.
• 44:11
  Rodrigo Hagar: I will take this idea from this conversation to.
• 44:13
  Rodrigo Hagar: Yeah.
• 44:14
  Tracy Cartwright: Well,
• 44:15
  Rodrigo Hagar: well thank you for that.
• 44:16
  Tracy Cartwright: And, and what about like drum circles?
• 44:18
  Tracy Cartwright: Do you do anything like that?
• 44:19
  Tracy Cartwright: Like if you,
• 44:20
  Rodrigo Hagar: not yet.
• 44:21
  Rodrigo Hagar: Not yet.
• 44:22
  Rodrigo Hagar: I've, I've been in some of them in here in Chile, but, but I have not offered them yet.
• 44:26
  Rodrigo Hagar: I very close to start doing that.
• 44:28
  Rodrigo Hagar: Like drum circles or singing circles.
• 44:31
  Tracy Cartwright: So you saw my drum, right?
• 44:33
  Tracy Cartwright: My hand drum.
• 44:36
  Tracy Cartwright: Well, it's, I've got a few of them, just the hand, not the jube.
• 44:40
  Rodrigo Hagar: Ah, but, but like, like, like the shamanic drum.
• 44:43
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
• 44:44
  Rodrigo Hagar: yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 44:44
  Rodrigo Hagar: Yeah.
• 44:45
  Tracy Cartwright: Um, so I am, I. A doula with drum doula.
• 44:49
  Tracy Cartwright: So I help people to, to birth drums.
• 44:52
  Rodrigo Hagar: Wonderful, wonderful.
• 44:54
  Tracy Cartwright: And that was a journey in itself.
• 44:55
  Tracy Cartwright: But from that, um, we started to do, um, I had people asking to do circles and stuff, and I had no idea.
• 45:04
  Tracy Cartwright: I didn't know how to read music, was none of that.
• 45:06
  Tracy Cartwright: So what we started doing was, and someone would come and then we had a couple of people that played the Jame and some that did the shamanic drums and.
• 45:15
  Tracy Cartwright: We had great big drums and all sorts of things.
• 45:18
  Tracy Cartwright: We even had one from a, um, like a Highland band, you know, like the big one, that front
• 45:26
  Rodrigo Hagar: boom, boom, boom.
• 45:26
  Rodrigo Hagar: Okay.
• 45:26
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 45:27
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 45:28
  Tracy Cartwright: And so we were just jam together and, and at the beginning we all sounded, it sounded terrible for about the first couple of minutes and then, then you would.
• 45:39
  Tracy Cartwright: Because you would hear the sound, right.
• 45:40
  Tracy Cartwright: And we'd all be trying to find our space in the field and it was like a cacophony of like scratching cats.
• 45:49
  Tracy Cartwright: And then we would all find our place and we, you could, you'd hear something over here and you'd follow that sound and then, and a sound over here would take you.
• 45:57
  Tracy Cartwright: And it was just beautiful.
• 45:59
  Tracy Cartwright: And we would go for probably about 40 minutes around.
• 46:04
  Tracy Cartwright: So we would do it.
• 46:05
  Tracy Cartwright: We'd just play and just play it, and you'd go from highs and lows, and then, then you'd get to a point where it was like a, a huge crescendo of very, very high energy.
• 46:17
  Tracy Cartwright: Beautiful.
• 46:18
  Rodrigo Hagar: Mm-hmm.
• 46:19
  Rodrigo Hagar: Wonderful.
• 46:20
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 46:20
  Tracy Cartwright: Um.
• 46:22
  Tracy Cartwright: Then we'd all come back down and, and then it would slowly end off, and that would be around, and we'd all be sitting there going, wow, did you guys feel that?
• 46:30
  Tracy Cartwright: You know, like,
• 46:30
  Rodrigo Hagar: what a journey.
• 46:32
  Tracy Cartwright: It was a ride.
• 46:33
  Tracy Cartwright: It was such a ride.
• 46:34
  Tracy Cartwright: And then we'd stop and have a cup of tea, and then we'd, um, then we'd, we'd have another round and maybe it got as high, or maybe it didn't, maybe it was, who knows?
• 46:43
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm-hmm.
• 46:43
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm-hmm.
• 46:43
  Tracy Cartwright: We always do sort of like two parts to it, and that was fun.
• 46:46
  Tracy Cartwright: I haven't, we haven't done that for quite some time, but.
• 46:48
  Tracy Cartwright: Really healing for people as well.
• 46:51
  Tracy Cartwright: Really healing.
• 46:52
  Rodrigo Hagar: Yeah, sure.
• 46:53
  Rodrigo Hagar: Yeah.
• 46:53
  Rodrigo Hagar: I
• 46:53
  Tracy Cartwright: sometimes people just came to be in it to, to hear the sounds and, and to dance around the background or, um,
• 47:00
  Rodrigo Hagar: yeah.
• 47:01
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 47:01
  Rodrigo Hagar: I think that we have so much a lack of that in, in our, in our culture, you know, in our, in, in the conventional culture.
• 47:07
  Rodrigo Hagar: We need this, this returning to the body.
• 47:10
  Rodrigo Hagar: I think.
• 47:10
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 47:11
  Rodrigo Hagar: We've been so, so trained since we were.
• 47:15
  Rodrigo Hagar: Children, you know, to, to like this focus in our intellects, you know, and, uh, and, uh, and this like, well the, the unseen body, you know, the unseen, uh, eras in our body.
• 47:28
  Rodrigo Hagar: Yeah.
• 47:29
  Rodrigo Hagar: I, I hope to be in New Zealand in one of your, of your drum circles in, in some time way.
• 47:33
  Rodrigo Hagar: Oh,
• 47:34
  Tracy Cartwright: we'd love to have you out here.
• 47:35
  Tracy Cartwright: It'd be amazing.
• 47:36
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah, that would be amazing.
• 47:38
  Tracy Cartwright: I'm back on your music again, 'cause that, that really interests me.
• 47:41
  Tracy Cartwright: Have you.
• 47:42
  Tracy Cartwright: Found that through your music, through your composing of music mm-hmm.
• 47:46
  Tracy Cartwright: That you've created or bought through any Constellation songs?
• 47:51
  Rodrigo Hagar: Not yet.
• 47:52
  Rodrigo Hagar: Not yet.
• 47:53
  Rodrigo Hagar: Um, I think that I am, I am a kind of, uh, product in, in production process, you know, in that sense.
• 48:04
  Rodrigo Hagar: Um, I've, I've, like, I've taken a lot of years to.
• 48:08
  Rodrigo Hagar: To gather, uh, music with constellations or music with therapy.
• 48:14
  Rodrigo Hagar: That's very rare.
• 48:16
  Rodrigo Hagar: Uh, I don't know.
• 48:17
  Rodrigo Hagar: Maybe I, I I, I think that I have to, I had to pass some years without doing this because, um, I dunno, that was my path of yeah, like getting forms of psychotherapist, you know, but, but, uh, progressively I'm, I'm doing this of bringing.
• 48:34
  Rodrigo Hagar: Music to, to family constellations and, and sometimes I, I like, don't have the time maybe to compose what I want to compose, but in, but recently I've been taking more time to take again my guitar, you know, and take again my drums.
• 48:49
  Rodrigo Hagar: And I hope to well start composing about what I do, you know, maybe, I don't know.
• 48:52
  Rodrigo Hagar: I was just
• 48:53
  Tracy Cartwright: thinking, you know, 'cause you, I know that you've got, you when you sing, your voice has got the magic in it as well.
• 49:00
  Tracy Cartwright: And um, I know that because I've heard you sing.
• 49:05
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm-hmm.
• 49:06
  Rodrigo Hagar: Yeah.
• 49:07
  Tracy Cartwright: I wonder, you know, how we have the healing sentences.
• 49:10
  Tracy Cartwright: Like, wow.
• 49:12
  Tracy Cartwright: Imagine if you were to even just to sing something into that.
• 49:16
  Tracy Cartwright: I dunno, it's just,
• 49:18
  Rodrigo Hagar: well, in, in constellations.
• 49:19
  Rodrigo Hagar: I've done it, like to sing in constellations that, I don't know what that was the question.
• 49:24
  Rodrigo Hagar: Maybe I, I took it by the, I don't too write the question.
• 49:27
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 49:28
  Tracy Cartwright: Kind
• 49:28
  Rodrigo Hagar: of.
• 49:28
  Rodrigo Hagar: I, I, yeah.
• 49:30
  Rodrigo Hagar: Maybe I, I don't know.
• 49:32
  Rodrigo Hagar: Like I don't have the, um, uh, like the composing these cons, these songs, but, uh, but in constellations, I, I, I sometimes sing and it's wonderful like this, especially in that mo in that moments when, when a song is needed.
• 49:45
  Rodrigo Hagar: I don't know, when, when you are like this, this kind of, you know, hack with somebody that's like this.
• 49:52
  Rodrigo Hagar: Kind of child, you know, getting, getting cared and, and using the songs, know that that moments are very, are very meaningful maybe.
• 50:02
  Rodrigo Hagar: And if you start to Yeah, definitely.
• 50:03
  Rodrigo Hagar: I hope I, I think that I in process of, of, uh, more.
• 50:09
  Rodrigo Hagar: Huh?
• 50:10
  Tracy Cartwright: I look forward to seeing where it takes you.
• 50:11
  Rodrigo Hagar: Well, yeah.
• 50:12
  Rodrigo Hagar: I think if, if we, if we talk again, I don't know, in some time.
• 50:15
  Rodrigo Hagar: Uh, I will tell you, well, I, I've, I'm doing a lot of more there.
• 50:19
  Rodrigo Hagar: Maybe it's part of my process, you know, I'm, I don't know, I'm 43, you know, like maybe, uh, always, uh, I'm, I'm still like maybe having my, my work like, uh, taking altogether in, in, in, maybe it's more, uh, long forms in life or, or perpetual forms, you know, if, if I can talk about something being perpetual, you know, but.
• 50:41
  Rodrigo Hagar: But I think that I, I'm doing that in right now, like making more integration, uh, having this midlife crisis of, uh, of knowing what, what I, what I really love to do, you know?
• 50:54
  Rodrigo Hagar: And anding my time very, it's a very basic and human, and human problem, you know, but very, very, in the first plane, to me right now, it's like taking the right decisions to do what I really, really love.
• 51:06
  Rodrigo Hagar: And I think that.
• 51:07
  Rodrigo Hagar: That was, I've been doing in the last years.
• 51:08
  Rodrigo Hagar: I, I, I'm, I think that I'm still discovering it.
• 51:11
  Rodrigo Hagar: You know, it's like, okay, what, what about music?
• 51:14
  Rodrigo Hagar: What about poetry?
• 51:15
  Rodrigo Hagar: And that's all the things that I love.
• 51:17
  Rodrigo Hagar: And maybe they're taking more place each time.
• 51:20
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 51:21
  Tracy Cartwright: And being able to integrate the things we love into the work that we do too.
• 51:25
  Tracy Cartwright: Right.
• 51:25
  Tracy Cartwright: And
• 51:26
  Rodrigo Hagar: yeah.
• 51:26
  Tracy Cartwright: And what we do doesn't have to look like anyone else.
• 51:29
  Rodrigo Hagar: Yeah.
• 51:30
  Rodrigo Hagar: Yeah.
• 51:30
  Tracy Cartwright: I think that was, for me, one of the big, the big things and such a relief.
• 51:35
  Tracy Cartwright: To be able to go, ah, um, doesn't have to look like that.
• 51:40
  Tracy Cartwright: I did have someone in my life who, who mocked people a lot, you know, like, what, what was said wasn't very kind often.
• 51:50
  Tracy Cartwright: And so I, for a long time.
• 51:53
  Tracy Cartwright: I held back and held back with the changes that I was making.
• 51:56
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm-hmm.
• 51:56
  Tracy Cartwright: And, um, I'm no longer, uh, have that person in my life.
• 52:00
  Tracy Cartwright: So, um,
• 52:02
  Rodrigo Hagar: yeah,
• 52:02
  Tracy Cartwright: I'm in my own space.
• 52:04
  Tracy Cartwright: Okay, this is what I want to do, this is what's coming through.
• 52:07
  Tracy Cartwright: I'm gonna give it a try.
• 52:08
  Tracy Cartwright: And, um, oh look, people, people want more of this, so that's good.
• 52:14
  Tracy Cartwright: Or, oh, well that didn't work, so let's revisit that.
• 52:18
  Tracy Cartwright: And, and also.
• 52:20
  Tracy Cartwright: Having had a German teacher learning and finding my way in that, so my teacher mm-hmm.
• 52:25
  Tracy Cartwright: Um, had learn in Germany and was German mm-hmm.
• 52:28
  Tracy Cartwright: And came over here.
• 52:29
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm-hmm.
• 52:29
  Tracy Cartwright: And yeah, more of, a bit more Kiwi style.
• 52:33
  Tracy Cartwright: Like, we're a little bit, little bit more relaxed.
• 52:36
  Rodrigo Hagar: Yeah.
• 52:37
  Rodrigo Hagar: Oh, wonderful.
• 52:37
  Rodrigo Hagar: Wonderful.
• 52:38
  Rodrigo Hagar: Thank you for that.
• 52:39
  Rodrigo Hagar: I, I think that that's, that's the path, you know, I, I, I love what I do, but I, I'm very.
• 52:45
  Rodrigo Hagar: I, I think that there are some windows I still have to open or to more fresh air to come in.
• 52:52
  Rodrigo Hagar: I think that I, I do a very loving work.
• 52:53
  Rodrigo Hagar: I'm very, I'm very happy for that.
• 52:55
  Rodrigo Hagar: But, but, uh, sometimes, I don't know, maybe using my time better to be more touch with music and all that can bring more, more that presence to what I do.
• 53:05
  Rodrigo Hagar: And I, and, and I resonate a lot with, with what you said, uh, when I do it.
• 53:11
  Rodrigo Hagar: Something completely different happens, you know, like the field moves, different people get in touch.
• 53:17
  Rodrigo Hagar: I don't know, maybe, uh, that, uh, silence that you can hold to wait, you know, uh mm-hmm.
• 53:24
  Rodrigo Hagar: Doesn't make the same movement compared to when, when I, when I sing, you know, and, and they, and people just cry, take a, a little time to cry or to, to, I don't know, go to the floor in peace and without struggling anymore.
• 53:39
  Rodrigo Hagar: Uh, so well.
• 53:40
  Rodrigo Hagar: Well, the same, the same issue that we work a lot of faci as facilitators.
• 53:44
  Rodrigo Hagar: You know, it's like seeing my own path and see also my own relaxation to, to help others to relax them so, so, so well I think that I'm, I'm always learning in that sense.
• 53:56
  Rodrigo Hagar: Yeah.
• 53:56
  Tracy Cartwright: Have you seen any of Carl, he Rush's work?
• 54:01
  Rodrigo Hagar: No, no, no, no.
• 54:02
  Tracy Cartwright: Dean does, um, healing voices.
• 54:05
  Rodrigo Hagar: Mm-hmm.
• 54:06
  Tracy Cartwright: With constellations.
• 54:08
  Tracy Cartwright: Okay.
• 54:08
  Rodrigo Hagar: Great.
• 54:09
  Rodrigo Hagar: Great.
• 54:09
  Tracy Cartwright: Um, and he does a lot online
• 54:12
  Rodrigo Hagar: mm-hmm.
• 54:12
  Tracy Cartwright: As well, does workshops and, and individuals online.
• 54:16
  Tracy Cartwright: So do you,
• 54:17
  Rodrigo Hagar: yeah.
• 54:17
  Tracy Cartwright: Sorry.
• 54:18
  Rodrigo Hagar: I will ask you the, for, for the, for the data to, to get in touch with with him.
• 54:23
  Tracy Cartwright: Do you work online?
• 54:24
  Rodrigo Hagar: Yeah, I work online, uh, mainly with individual sessions.
• 54:28
  Rodrigo Hagar: Yeah.
• 54:28
  Rodrigo Hagar: And it work very, very powerfully.
• 54:30
  Rodrigo Hagar: You know, it's been a, a great discovery since, well, since the pandemic in, in 2020.
• 54:36
  Rodrigo Hagar: Uh, I didn't believe it would work before the pandemic and, uh, and it, and it's very wonderful.
• 54:42
  Rodrigo Hagar: Yeah, I love it very much.
• 54:43
  Rodrigo Hagar: And it's very different from all the other forms.
• 54:47
  Rodrigo Hagar: For the group, from the group, from the group online.
• 54:50
  Rodrigo Hagar: It's very different and from the individual.
• 54:52
  Rodrigo Hagar: Uh, and, and I don't know, in, in my, in my, in my place where I work, it's very different, you know, the, the online individual session, like
• 55:01
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 55:01
  Tracy Cartwright: And, and I know that a lot of facilitators do it very differently.
• 55:05
  Tracy Cartwright: I, um, I had never been taught to do it online, but I discovered that I, I ended up somehow, uh, ended up with quite a few clients overseas.
• 55:16
  Tracy Cartwright: I don't even know how that happened, and.
• 55:20
  Tracy Cartwright: So I, I had to teach myself how to do this online.
• 55:24
  Tracy Cartwright: I think.
• 55:24
  Tracy Cartwright: Oh, I, it was probably people around New Zealand as well, not just overseas.
• 55:28
  Tracy Cartwright: So I started, so I sort of created a way to do it.
• 55:32
  Rodrigo Hagar: Mm-hmm.
• 55:32
  Rodrigo Hagar: Mm-hmm.
• 55:33
  Tracy Cartwright: And then, um, and I haven't seen anyone do the same way, but
• 55:38
  Rodrigo Hagar: how
• 55:38
  Tracy Cartwright: did, is there, is there a, a method or a way in which you do it?
• 55:41
  Tracy Cartwright: Do you do it
• 55:42
  Rodrigo Hagar: uhhuh
• 55:42
  Tracy Cartwright: with objects or, yeah.
• 55:44
  Rodrigo Hagar: Yeah, I, I use objects.
• 55:46
  Rodrigo Hagar: I have like this kind of hybrid form of working.
• 55:49
  Rodrigo Hagar: Uh, I put my, my table with some objects, these figures, I don't know if I have them there, well, here or there.
• 55:56
  Rodrigo Hagar: I have like this, this kind of, of, of, of objects with faces no drawn in them.
• 56:03
  Rodrigo Hagar: Mm-hmm.
• 56:03
  Rodrigo Hagar: And uh, sometimes I use like little stones and things.
• 56:07
  Rodrigo Hagar: Yeah.
• 56:07
  Rodrigo Hagar: And I open the field.
• 56:10
  Rodrigo Hagar: Here, but also with imagery with the person, you know, so the person, the, the constellation is, the field is happening here in the inner experience of the person and in this kind of, you know, middle place, you know, between us.
• 56:24
  Rodrigo Hagar: And, um, and so it, it's, it's making the, I don't know, I, I tell the person, like, let's prove if you walk a little bit.
• 56:34
  Rodrigo Hagar: To get closer to your mother, for example.
• 56:36
  Rodrigo Hagar: So she does that in the, in her imagination.
• 56:39
  Rodrigo Hagar: And, and I also move the, the object in here and it's very, it's been very moving.
• 56:44
  Rodrigo Hagar: Very wonderful.
• 56:45
  Rodrigo Hagar: That work.
• 56:46
  Rodrigo Hagar: Mm-hmm.
• 56:47
  Rodrigo Hagar: I've seen a lot of changes.
• 56:48
  Rodrigo Hagar: Uh, maybe one of the most, um, I don't know, maybe effective.
• 56:54
  Rodrigo Hagar: Uh, I, I get a lot of reports.
• 56:56
  Rodrigo Hagar: It's very curious compared with I know groups that all well also happens.
• 57:01
  Rodrigo Hagar: No, people tell you it's been good or not, but.
• 57:04
  Rodrigo Hagar: Uh, in the individual online sessions tends to be especially moving, you know?
• 57:10
  Rodrigo Hagar: Mm-hmm.
• 57:10
  Rodrigo Hagar: When, when my, when my students ask, ask, how do you work online?
• 57:13
  Rodrigo Hagar: And I, and I tell them, well, constellations have always been, uh, a working from distance.
• 57:19
  Rodrigo Hagar: You know, it never has been.
• 57:21
  Rodrigo Hagar: Uh, it, it doesn't have to be with, with, uh, geographical distance.
• 57:26
  Rodrigo Hagar: Never have been that, always have been like a, like an online work in that sense, you know?
• 57:32
  Rodrigo Hagar: So we discovered the same maybe principle, you know, of getting a light with something that's intangible, that works, you know, in, in people.
• 57:39
  Rodrigo Hagar: Mm-hmm.
• 57:40
  Tracy Cartwright: So if, great, thank you.
• 57:42
  Tracy Cartwright: If someone wanted to, um, get in touch with you, how would they find you?
• 57:45
  Rodrigo Hagar: Instagram I think is the best way.
• 57:47
  Rodrigo Hagar: Uh, rod altogether, Rodrigo, H-A-G-A-R.
• 57:54
  Rodrigo Hagar: And well, from there I will answer your messages and I don't know.
• 57:58
  Rodrigo Hagar: Maybe get in touch with what you need.
• 58:00
  Rodrigo Hagar: We're doing workshops always in Chile, Santiago, so if you want to come here to this beautiful lens
• 58:06
  Tracy Cartwright: Oh, I would love to.
• 58:08
  Tracy Cartwright: That would be amazing.
• 58:09
  Tracy Cartwright: And, and one day that will happen.
• 58:10
  Tracy Cartwright: So
• 58:11
  Rodrigo Hagar: yeah, that will happen.
• 58:12
  Rodrigo Hagar: Yeah.
• 58:13
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 58:13
  Rodrigo Hagar: Or in or in the next encounter in of, of East also, maybe it will happen that it will, may surely join you.
• 58:21
  Rodrigo Hagar: I hope that it will happen soon.
• 58:22
  Tracy Cartwright: That'll be beautiful.
• 58:23
  Tracy Cartwright: Well, thank you so much for, uh.
• 58:26
  Tracy Cartwright: Saying yes to coming in, chatting with me about Constellation and all that.
• 58:30
  Tracy Cartwright: We've gone all over the place.
• 58:31
  Tracy Cartwright: It's great.
• 58:32
  Tracy Cartwright: Love
• 58:32
  Rodrigo Hagar: it.
• 58:33
  Rodrigo Hagar: Thank you, Dr. Thank you very much.
• 58:34
  Rodrigo Hagar: I was very pleased talking with you.
• 58:35
  Rodrigo Hagar: Thank.
• 58:36
  Rodrigo Hagar: Thank you.
• 58:36
  Rodrigo Hagar: Nabi hug there.
• 58:37
  Tracy Cartwright: Thank you.
• 58:38
  Tracy Cartwright: And if anyone's interested in, in reaching out to the Rod Rodrigo, um, yeah, find him on Instagram at, uh, Rodrigo Hagar.
• 58:47
  Tracy Cartwright: That's how we would say it.
• 58:48
  Tracy Cartwright: H-A-J-A-R and g. And G-H-A-G-A-R Get my letters in my alphabet.
• 58:58
  Tracy Cartwright: Right.
• 59:00
  Rodrigo Hagar: No, that's great.
• 59:00
  Rodrigo Hagar: Great.
• 59:02
  Tracy Cartwright: Um, and I'll leave it there with you
• 59:05
  Rodrigo Hagar: anyway.
• 59:06
  Rodrigo Hagar: Bye-Bye.
• 59:07
  Tracy Cartwright: Thank you for listening.
• 59:08
  Tracy Cartwright: Head over to Instagram and tell me what's resonated for you.
• 59:11
  Tracy Cartwright: With this episode, you'll find me at Tracy dot Cartwright.
• 59:16
  Tracy Cartwright: That's Tracy with no e dot Cartwright and the or head over to my website, Tracy cartwright.co nz, and receive a free audio with the gift from your ancestors.
• 59:29
  Tracy Cartwright: So until next time, be kind to yourself and have fun doing it.