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The Neurosurgeon Rule: Stop Fixing Your Kid · The Parent Tap

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: The best analogy I can give you is this.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_01: For a world-class neurosurgeon, you're in the OR, you're in the operating room, right?
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_01: And God forbid, your son, your daughter, a loved one, a family member is rolled in, right?
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_01: More than likely, the first thing to do is to see if there's another world-class neurosurgeon very, very close by so that they can take over.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: You could recuse yourself, take a more observational approach, because it would be almost impossible for you to put your hands in the chest cavity of a loved one and keep a steady hand all the way through that operation, knowing that the outcome of that procedure will directly impact you, your future, your family forever.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that with my families, when I'm brought in to conduct an intervention, right?
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_01: At the end of the day, um I do ask that you take that perspective and you allow me to manage the situation from a professionally caring perspective, elevate and doing that, we have a much higher probability of getting that person not only not only the help that they need, but also doing it in a way where we have greater compliance with care and treatment.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_00: My guess is Evan Jarshauer.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: He's a clinical interventionist.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: Evan, thank you so much for being on the show.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: Do you want to give a quick introduction and kind of let people know who you are, what you do, and and why you're here?
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: I am a professional uh behavioral health interventionist.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_01: I'm also a licensed psychotherapist.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I specialize in working on intervention cases where people are battling serious mental health issues like bipolar, depression, anxiety, trauma, psychosis, schizophrenia.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: And oftentimes it's the case that they're self-medicating, they're using something to try to cope or some behavior, drugs, alcohol, uh, gaming, gambling, shopping, all that stuff.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm brought in by the family to help them get their loved one out of the hospital to a program or get from the home or the streets.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of case times I have cases on the streets to a program or treatment.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_01: Where they've tried getting through, they've tried to have that sit down, it's not working, the door is closed, no one's coming out of the room, leave me alone, mom, leave me alone, homie, and I'm brought in to help them.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: From a clinical perspective, where is the exact line between kids being kids and a legitimate behavioral crisis that requires intervention?
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_01: I think at the end of the day, you know, without getting too technical, I think it's really where you start to see that they're not thriving, where you're starting to see concerning patterns of behavior, a lot of isolation, a lot of mood swings, just severe changes, drastic changes in, you know, he used to be happy or she used to be happy, used to engage, used to come out, they're not.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_01: You know, when you start to feel that there's something wrong, more than likely there is.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_01: You know, the intuition thing, the parental intuition is is usually right.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: How but more than likely, when you start to see and you start to feel there's something wrong, there probably it's how you approach it that will be the most critical element of how do you handle something when you just know something's wrong.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_00: What's the mistake they're making at home that's fueling the chaos?
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we act on instinct, right?
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_01: When we see our son or our daughter, or husband, or wife, or loved one struggling, we try to help, right?
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_01: So, what could be perceived as a mistake sometimes is if your loved one is struggling, and rather than try to find the root cause and get them some help for that root cause, sometimes we as parents end up trying to help them with their shortcomings.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_01: We we rather than try to fix the problem, instead of giving the fishing pole, we end up giving them the fish.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, for that reason, when there's issues with finances, instead of looking at rather than just give them the money because they're short, or when there's issues with a medical issue, just getting them to the doctor, maybe being more engaged with where's the financial issue coming from, the medical issue, what's that about?
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_01: Being more interactive and engaging, that may be a the best thing to do so that you can be part of the solution instead of the problem.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_00: Let's talk about resistance.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_00: When a teenager or young adult completely refuses help, therapy or basic household rules, what is the operational first step for parents?
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I'll say this.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's also very important, and this sometimes is a misstep, is where the the son or the daughter or the family member isn't included in the actual setting up or the establishment of those house rules or guidelines.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it could be really helpful and beneficial to bring everybody into the fold so that everyone could also live by the same rules that are established, as opposed to this is the way it's going to be, and that's that from a more authoritarian perspective.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_00: How do you strip the emotion out of an intervention?
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_00: You you probably got parents that are terrified.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_00: So, how do you get them to operate as a united front?
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: Is it just setting the expectations for everyone so everyone's on the same page, or is there more to it?
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_01: You can definitely do instead of trying, if you've got a freight train of issues coming at you, then perhaps finding a way to move to the side like that, and then embrace and come around from the other side to be able to, you know, address the issues in a very loving, compassionate uh way, with a strategically guided plan to see that that person gets some help.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_01: Because if you try to go head on with a 16-year-old or a 15-year-old or a 30-year-old or whatever age they are, headstrong, highly intelligent, highly manipulative, you might just lose the argument.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: And rather than lose the war, lose finding a way to kind of have a truce or even maybe lose a battle so you can ultimately win the war and get your loved ones and help.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_00: So you walk into homes that are in absolute crisis, right?
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_00: But in your 20 years of doing this, what do you think the percentage of the time is the problem child actually just a symptom of the parents' toxic marriage?
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that when you say a symptom of toxic marriage, that kind of leads me to believe that you may have seen toxic marriages, right?
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not saying you came from a toxic marriage, I'm just saying you may have seen it.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: I kind of look at it like at the end of the day, there every single one of my cases, there are elements of, there's many elements of the people that surround that person who I'm going to get help for.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_01: That's why I call Mary, Rebecca, Stacy, Steven, and Ryan.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_01: That's why I call them the identified person because they're really the identified issue.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: They're the person that we can see the one who is presenting as the problem.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: But that stuff doesn't happen in a vacuum.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_01: Whatever, whatever it is, doesn't happen in a vacuum.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_01: And so what I've learned over the years is that if I come off like a bull in a china shop and I start going, parents, look what the hell you just did.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: You realize what you're doing is screwing up your kid?
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_01: And what happens there is if they're not ready, if they're not ready for change, then you blow them out of the water.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_01: And if you blow the parents out of the water, a little Mary Sue or Becky Jane or Stephen or whomever, they're screwed.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_01: So I've learned over the years how to kind of embrace where people are at, help parents and families come together for a unified cause, and by doing that, get everybody on board with the plan, then we can start to break down a little bit where was the underlying cause, where would some of those variables coming from?
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_01: So that's part of my and that's kind of my answer to you.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's definitely that all of my cases have that in them.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's how do you um address that in a way where you don't push away the people that are essential to get that person some help?
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_00: Next question.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_00: So, as a clinical professional, are we over-medicating kids today?
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_01: That's another great question.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_01: And and when you ask a question like that, there's so many pieces of the puzzle that go into it.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_01: And it even becomes a geopolitical, uh, it's almost like what's your what's your opinion on Roe versus Wade?
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's almost it's almost in that nature that if you say, well, I'm in favor of this or I'm in favor of that, then you completely potentially remove yourself from being able to help another population.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that the best answer is this.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_01: I think that over anything is bad.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_01: Over anything is bad.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: Whether it's medication, whether it's therapy, whether it's over whatever, chocolate, whatever.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_01: If you overdo something, I think it's really about helping working to find the best balance.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_01: Now, to be more specific and not so politically correct, I think that if you have a prescribing physician that solely, solely is only focused in on medication, medication, medication, and you as a parent feel that having some talk therapy, some interactive holistic therapies integrated into that plan is important, then you may want to have a heart-to-heart conversation with that per prescriber.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: And if that provider is unwilling or unable to have that heart-to-heart with you, then you may want to look for another one that is.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_01: That's the best way to answer your question because I've learned over the years that if I was to take the approach over this or over that, well, then you've got all these people going, what about this?
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_01: And what about best thing is find the right medium, find the right place, and find the right providers, work from a treatment team standpoint, that gives you the highest prognosis of seeing your loved ones get the best care possible.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, true.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_00: Good good answer.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, you definitely dodge that landmine I threw out there for you just to see because it is, you know, it is like you said, it is controversial, and it's one of those, like you said, you say one thing, people are gonna think different about you because of that answer.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_00: So I love I love how you put that in.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_01: And at the same time, I can't be weak about the answer.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_01: Because if you're wishy-washy and weak about the answer, if you're gonna be wishy-washy and weak about the answer about that question, then if I'm watching your podcast and I'm thinking about bringing Evan to help, if he's gonna be wishy-washy with Ryan, my kid's out of control.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: My kid's out of control.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_00: Pretty hard-hitting, though.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I can tell and I appreciate and I appreciate you at being as in control of that as possible.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I know totally.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_00: I I hear what you're saying.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: You're definitely representing exactly the kind of toughness you're gonna bring to that situation and you the mental fortitude you have to have, right?
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we always we're always told as a parent our love is unconditional.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_00: I see this a lot, you know.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_00: Not in my family, like a murder.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, no.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: Not in your but in everyone else's family, you know.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: In your high-stakes interventions, is there ever a scenario where your clinical recommendation is actually for parents to cut ties, lock the door, walk away?
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_01: But there's asterisks and there's nuances that could go on for a lot more time than we have.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: In some cases, there have to be very firm, strong, definitive boundaries in place.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_01: But I never tell anybody that you will not speak to that person ever again.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_01: It is never about putting somebody on the street, it's about being able to potentially educate that person that the street is an option.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_01: But it's never to put somebody in a position where you have to live the rest of your life, oh my god, I threw my kid out on the street.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_01: How could I not talk to this person?
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_01: But by the same token, if you don't have firm, solid boundaries, then how's this person who fundamentally is off the rails, out of control, how are they ever gonna where's it, how is that bottom ever gonna be created here?
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: So I've learned over the years how to help families create a very loving, solid, firm bottom that will help that individual ultimately accept the help that they need, or the help that's that the family recognizes they need and take action uh on it.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_01: So uh it's just not my nature to give that particular guidance in that way.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: Understood.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and Evan, for the parent listening right now who is realizing they are in over their heads and the standard advice isn't working, what is their immediate next steps?
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_01: What happens sometimes with families is they're called handcuffs of some nature.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: What happens with families sometimes or people sometimes, whether it's parents, husbands, wives, cousins, brothers, whatever, is sometimes you find yourself pushing and pushing and fighting and trying to get someone to say something and open up or whatever.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_01: And what you end up doing inadvertently is you're pushing them further and further into a corner.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_01: That makes my job that much more challenging.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_01: I think that if you find that you're getting resistance, getting pushback, you're getting leave me alone, the doors opening, rather than trying to break the door down with all of your whatever you want to say, that may be the right time to say, let's find a more gentle path to break through that wall, that seemingly impenetrable wall, but let's get some professional help to guide us through this so we don't end up creating a bigger wedge, a bigger problem, because we just had to knock through and get somebody to do something where we could have taken a more subtle approach and still accomplish the same mission.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: And the a subtle approach might be having a professional come and help you.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: If you're able to have somebody like me come and help you, and I'd love to come and help.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, Evan Jarshower, where can our audience find you and find more information about your practice so you can come help them if they need it?
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: The word behavioral and the word help, not help, help.com.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: So it's behavioralhelp.com, my company's behavioral help solutions.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_01: It's myself and a couple of other counselors, and you can just feel free to go to the website, check out our work, and just give us a call.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_01: And if we come and help you, we'd love to.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_01: And if even if it's for a consultation, you can have a consultation.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: And if you want us to come and help, we can talk about that as well.