Latest / The Dr. Sarah Hensley Show / Episode 42, Season 1: Navigating Divorce

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Episode 42, Season 1: Navigating Divorce · The Dr. Sarah Hensley Show

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, welcome to the Love Dog Podcast.
• 0:10
  Speaker 2: I am your co host Rena Butcher here with doctor
• 0:13
  Speaker 2: Sarah and Slee.
• 0:14
  Speaker 3: What's Up?
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: What's Up? She is the owner and CEO of soon
• 0:19
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• 2:52
  Speaker 2: episode forty two and today we are going to talk
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  Speaker 2: about how to navigate divorce.
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  Speaker 3: That's not what anybody wants to hear talk about, but
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  Speaker 3: it is a reality for so many people. It was
• 3:03
  Speaker 3: once a reality for me. It's a reality for a
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  Speaker 3: lot of my clients because I am all about saving
• 3:10
  Speaker 3: a marriage if it can be saved. But there are
• 3:12
  Speaker 3: some that cannot yeah, or should not be because there's
• 3:15
  Speaker 3: abuse and fidelity, severe neglect, and the other person isn't willing.
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: To do the work that's right.
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  Speaker 3: And when you are faced with someone who absolutely steps
• 3:24
  Speaker 3: outside of the marriage covenant, you gotta go.
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So I want to paint a picture for our listeners.
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  Speaker 2: So let's start from the beginning. Okay, let's give a
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  Speaker 2: hypothetical situation. Okay, you're in the midst of a divorce,
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: or maybe your partner just came to you and said
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: I want a divorce, or maybe it's been threatened multiple
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  Speaker 2: times and now they're finally like they've had the papers
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  Speaker 2: drawn up. Okay, all right, the papers are drawn up.
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  Speaker 2: They're just waiting for you to sign on the dog line.
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  Speaker 3: So disclaimer, none of what I say is legal advice.
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  Speaker 3: I cannot give you legal advice and I cannot give
• 3:52
  Speaker 3: you ever medical advice. So just know that. Okay, this
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  Speaker 3: is coming from largely my own personal opinion and experiences
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  Speaker 3: with both my own divorce and with helping clients who
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  Speaker 3: are going through the divorce process.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, and multiple multiple situations. Have children involves yeah, because
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  Speaker 2: I know that's a big variable.
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  Speaker 3: It is a huge variable and.
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  Speaker 2: Seems to be the question a lot like I have
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  Speaker 2: these children, What do I do right?
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  Speaker 3: For sure? So first of all, let's just go through
• 4:20
  Speaker 3: the scenario that your spouse wants a divorce but you
• 4:24
  Speaker 3: don't want a divorce. Okay, what do you need to do?
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  Speaker 3: Most people do the absolute wrong thing, which is bag
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  Speaker 3: and plead and try to work it out and get
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  Speaker 3: clingy and get anxious and try to change their mind.
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  Speaker 3: That is the opposite of what you need to do.
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  Speaker 3: What you need to do is show that person what
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  Speaker 3: a divorce from you would actually feel like. Because a
• 4:48
  Speaker 3: lot of people think that they know what they're going
• 4:51
  Speaker 3: to feel like post divorce, and they don't know what
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  Speaker 3: they're going to feel like. So you need to show
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  Speaker 3: them early on what it feels like. And what do
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  Speaker 3: you mean by what I mean by that is you
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  Speaker 3: go as low contact as humanly possible. If somebody wants
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  Speaker 3: a divorce, you don't get to say no, I'm stopping it.
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  Speaker 3: Like they're gonna get it. Every state is gonna grant
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  Speaker 3: that person a divorce. Eventually, you can hold up the
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  Speaker 3: legal process, but all it's gonna do is run you
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  Speaker 3: out of money. They're going to get the divorce because
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  Speaker 3: that's how our legal system works. You are not held
• 5:24
  Speaker 3: in a marriage that you don't want to be in.
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  Speaker 2: Right.
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  Speaker 3: You can contest it, but you're gonna lose, yeah, right.
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: And you're gonna spend a lot more money.
• 5:31
  Speaker 3: Yeah. So you have to first accept the fact that
• 5:35
  Speaker 3: they've laid out a boundary they want the marriage to end.
• 5:39
  Speaker 3: And so you can tell them, look, this isn't what
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  Speaker 3: I want. I want to work things out with you,
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  Speaker 3: but I understand this boundary that you've just laid out,
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  Speaker 3: and so I have no choice but to accept it.
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  Speaker 3: That's going to probably surprise them, especially if they're using
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  Speaker 3: a divorce as like a threat protest behavior. A lot
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  Speaker 3: more people do that than you think. Okay, and so
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  Speaker 3: you have to say, I accept that boundary. It's not
• 6:06
  Speaker 3: what I want. Just know it's not what I want, okay,
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  Speaker 3: but I'm going to respect the boundary. That's the exact
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  Speaker 3: language that you need to use. I'm going to respect
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  Speaker 3: this boundary. So then you immediately separate as far as
• 6:20
  Speaker 3: you can. If you can go to a different bedroom,
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  Speaker 3: Please go to a different bedroom. You move all of
• 6:25
  Speaker 3: your stuff out of the room. You don't what a
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  Speaker 3: lot of people want is they want you to go
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  Speaker 3: Oh no, I love you I'm so sorry, please you know,
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  Speaker 3: blah blah blah, and then still go Nope, I want
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  Speaker 3: the divorce. Nope, I want the divorce because they're protesting
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  Speaker 3: and they want to see you in pain a little
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  Speaker 3: bit because they feel hurt. Sure, not to call out
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  Speaker 3: the fas, but this is a very common fearful avoidant
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  Speaker 3: move to really act like you're going to go get
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  Speaker 3: a divorce and push it as hard as you can
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  Speaker 3: to kind of make the other person suffer, not from
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  Speaker 3: like a narcissistic way, but from I need you to
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  Speaker 3: understand how much you've hurt me way, and so you
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  Speaker 3: need to take that out of.
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  Speaker 2: The equation and wrap your brain around that first, all
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  Speaker 2: the bluffs.
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  Speaker 3: You have to call the bluff you have to. It'll
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  Speaker 3: make sure that it's not protests. Behave right exactly before
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  Speaker 3: you do it, exactly so you move out of the bedroom,
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  Speaker 3: you you know, consult your attorney because there are legal
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  Speaker 3: ramifications of leaving the home, okay, if you are in
• 7:28
  Speaker 3: a separation there in different states have different laws about that.
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  Speaker 3: So definitely consult an attorney right away, okay, and do
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  Speaker 3: your research on an attorney. Don't just find whoever's cheaper.
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  Speaker 3: Do your research. Whatever you have to do to pay
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  Speaker 3: for a good attorney, Get a good attorney. Your attorney
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  Speaker 3: can make or break what happens to you in the
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  Speaker 3: divorce process. And understand the divorce laws in your state.
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  Speaker 3: So some states have outfault divorce laws and some states
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  Speaker 3: have no fault divorce laws. Kentucky is a no fault state,
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  Speaker 3: meaning that it doesn't matter what happened in the marriage.
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  Speaker 3: Y'all are getting fifty to fifty unless you can strongly,
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  Speaker 3: strongly prove that there are reasons other than fifty percent
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  Speaker 3: division of the assets, fifty percent division of the children,
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  Speaker 3: on time and custody rights. So if you're in a
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  Speaker 3: no fault state, you're operating from the space of everybody
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  Speaker 3: starts at the fifty yard line. At fault states is
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  Speaker 3: totally different. For example, I had a past client in
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  Speaker 3: an at fault state. His wife cheated on him. He
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  Speaker 3: had lots of proof of these multiple affairs. He was
• 8:37
  Speaker 3: able to sue her and the divorce partners or not
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  Speaker 3: the divorce partners, the affair partners who cause the divorce
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  Speaker 3: for alienation of affection.
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  Speaker 2: Wow, and he won.
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  Speaker 3: Wow, And he got a lot better outcome in than
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  Speaker 3: divorce in terms of assets and time with his kids
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  Speaker 3: and stuff than he probably would have been if she
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  Speaker 3: would not have been unfaithful. So that is something to understand. Yeah,
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  Speaker 3: that's the jump.
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  Speaker 2: That's a big one.
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  Speaker 3: Again. Don't leave your home without consulting an attorney, because
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  Speaker 3: in some states if you leave your home and a
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  Speaker 3: quote unquote abandon the home, then there are legal repercussions
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  Speaker 3: for that. But move out of the bedroom, please, okay,
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  Speaker 3: And then from here on out your discussions are going
• 9:26
  Speaker 3: to be kind, cordial but business like. You are not
• 9:29
  Speaker 3: going to discuss the relationship unless they want to have
• 9:34
  Speaker 3: a talk about working it out, right, So you assess
• 9:36
  Speaker 3: what they want to talk about. If they just want
• 9:38
  Speaker 3: to vent to you about how bad you are, you
• 9:40
  Speaker 3: don't entertain that conversation. You say, from what I understand,
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  Speaker 3: you've already made the decision to divorce, so this conversation
• 9:47
  Speaker 3: isn't relevant, and I think we should focus on doing
• 9:49
  Speaker 3: what's best for our children, best for our finances, et cetera.
• 9:52
  Speaker 3: And you end the conversation hard boundary hard stop right,
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  Speaker 3: Because when someone says I don't want to be married
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  Speaker 3: to you anymore, it is I mean, that's a big thing.
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  Speaker 3: It's huge, right, That's not something that you just go
• 10:07
  Speaker 3: toss out there because you're mad at somebody, right, And
• 10:10
  Speaker 3: if you're on the other side of thinking about divorce,
• 10:12
  Speaker 3: you don't toss that out there until you are sure,
• 10:15
  Speaker 3: because that's not fair to do to your partner children
• 10:18
  Speaker 3: or your children. It causes a lot of stress, a
• 10:21
  Speaker 3: lot of lack of trust. You see it out till
• 10:24
  Speaker 3: the bitter end, and when you are sure, that's when
• 10:27
  Speaker 3: you have the conversation. Until you are actually involved with
• 10:30
  Speaker 3: an attorney, you probably shouldn't have the conversation until you
• 10:34
  Speaker 3: know exactly what you're facing. And I don't want to
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  Speaker 3: scare anybody away from divorce because listen, my divorce was
• 10:39
  Speaker 3: the best dang thing it ever happened to me. Okay,
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  Speaker 3: So I am not anti divorce, but I am anti
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  Speaker 3: bad divorces, anti problematic divorces, because the research actually shows
• 10:56
  Speaker 3: that it's not whether or not kids are exposed to
• 10:59
  Speaker 3: a divorce from their parents, but how that divorce is
• 11:02
  Speaker 3: handled that actually predicts the outcomes for them. So you
• 11:06
  Speaker 3: have to realize that how you handle the divorce process
• 11:09
  Speaker 3: and how you co parent is extremely important. That is
• 11:12
  Speaker 3: why you do not stonewall. You are not unkind, You
• 11:15
  Speaker 3: are not mean or hostile. You are civil, you are kind,
• 11:19
  Speaker 3: but you're just business like. Yeah, you're just business like. Okay,
• 11:22
  Speaker 3: we've got to take care of this. No, I understand
• 11:25
  Speaker 3: you know what. I don't think this conversation is relevant
• 11:27
  Speaker 3: at this time since you are set on getting a divorce,
• 11:29
  Speaker 3: getting a divorce, and that is calling a buff Yeah right,
• 11:33
  Speaker 3: if it is.
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: I don't use your children as your confidante.
• 11:35
  Speaker 3: Please don't, please do not talk to your kids about
• 11:38
  Speaker 3: the divorce. The only conversation you should have about the
• 11:41
  Speaker 3: divorce is how they're feeling. Is how they're feeling. How
• 11:43
  Speaker 3: is you know? I want you to know that this
• 11:45
  Speaker 3: is happening, and you should have the conversation together. Don't
• 11:48
  Speaker 3: do it behind your partner's back. That's right, that's awful.
• 11:51
  Speaker 3: If they are avoid avoiding having the conversation, that's a
• 11:54
  Speaker 3: big clue that they're not ready to actually go through
• 11:57
  Speaker 3: with the divorce. A lot of people start pushing divorce
• 11:59
  Speaker 3: before they're really truly ready, and then they change course
• 12:03
  Speaker 3: once they realize that you have called the bluff and
• 12:05
  Speaker 3: accepted the boundary, and now they feel a sense of
• 12:08
  Speaker 3: loss from you and it's really real, they back out
• 12:12
  Speaker 3: of it. So that's why respecting the boundary is important,
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  Speaker 3: because not just because it could be a bluff, but
• 12:20
  Speaker 3: because they set a boundary, and like the boundary is
• 12:23
  Speaker 3: what it is, they're going to get the divorce if
• 12:25
  Speaker 3: that's what they really want. So to protect yourself and
• 12:28
  Speaker 3: your piece, you need to respect the boundary. You know,
• 12:31
  Speaker 3: do you really want to be with somebody you have
• 12:33
  Speaker 3: to beg to stay sure. I wouldn't want to be
• 12:36
  Speaker 3: going to me that I had to beg to stay No.
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: And in terms of the children, when do you think
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: and this is a tough one because I know it's
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: it's variable based, but when's the right time to tell
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: the kids, Like when you've signed on the dotted line,
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: or when.
• 12:53
  Speaker 3: You've decided to legally enter the process, like when the
• 12:56
  Speaker 3: divorce papers, because there's initial paperwork that's filed that says hey,
• 12:59
  Speaker 3: we're getting it, and then what happens is everybody lawyers up.
• 13:03
  Speaker 3: And if you think this is another okay, not legal advice,
• 13:06
  Speaker 3: this is personal opinion advice. If you think that you
• 13:09
  Speaker 3: and your spouse can magically have some kind of amical
• 13:12
  Speaker 3: divorce where you only use one attorney. You are the
• 13:15
  Speaker 3: dumbest person on the planet. Okay, I'm sorry to say that.
• 13:19
  Speaker 3: That's how everybody starts out. Everybody thinks, you know what,
• 13:23
  Speaker 3: we can do this quick, we can do this easy.
• 13:24
  Speaker 3: We don't have to fight. Right, But let me tell you,
• 13:27
  Speaker 3: divorce brings out the absolute worst in people.
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: That's why God hates it.
• 13:32
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's why God hates it. But he hates abuse
• 13:35
  Speaker 3: and neglect and infidelity more sure, So listen, try everything
• 13:41
  Speaker 3: you can try before you go down this road. But sometimes,
• 13:45
  Speaker 3: like you know, I have clients whose partners have had
• 13:48
  Speaker 3: affairs and who cannot truly take accountability where it's like
• 13:56
  Speaker 3: they're always reverting back to but you, you hurt You
• 13:59
  Speaker 3: made me feel this way, and so I had to
• 14:00
  Speaker 3: get connection outside of the marriage. Now wrong, right? Or
• 14:06
  Speaker 3: I recognize that I yes, I hurt you and I
• 14:08
  Speaker 3: hurt the family, but you know, also no accountability for
• 14:13
  Speaker 3: their patterns or no true steps towards fixing the root
• 14:17
  Speaker 3: causes of why they had the affair, because there's things
• 14:20
  Speaker 3: going on that led to the affair, right, And you
• 14:22
  Speaker 3: don't just get to turn around and blame your partner.
• 14:25
  Speaker 3: You have to realize that you stepped out of the covenant.
• 14:27
  Speaker 3: You always had the choice to divorce before you had
• 14:30
  Speaker 3: that affair, which is always the right choice.
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and so.
• 14:36
  Speaker 3: You know, sometimes divorce is the right route, but the
• 14:40
  Speaker 3: way that it's handled has to be with kid gloves
• 14:44
  Speaker 3: when you have kids especially.
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: I want to talk a little bit about the topic
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: of neglect because I know a lot of your clients
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: come to you maybe there's been no you know, big
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: to do, like a like infidelity, And I know that
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: you've talked about how neglect is a form of abuse.
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: It is, but it can sort of be unseen, right
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: or it can be hard to diagnose. And so for
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: those people who feel emotional emotionally neglected by their partner,
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: maybe they have a very severe dismissive a partner dismissive
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: avoidant partner, Like, what's your advice to them?
• 15:19
  Speaker 3: If they're not willing to accept accountability and do everything
• 15:22
  Speaker 3: they can to try to meet your needs, then you
• 15:28
  Speaker 3: should go because it's not it's never going to change. Now,
• 15:31
  Speaker 3: what I will say is take a hard, hard, hard
• 15:34
  Speaker 3: look at yourself and be fully accountable to what you
• 15:37
  Speaker 3: bring to the table, because you could be triggering the
• 15:40
  Speaker 3: heck out of their DA attachment and their neurological system
• 15:44
  Speaker 3: is just responding to the triggers, right, which doesn't mean
• 15:47
  Speaker 3: that they're unaccountable. But also, have you tried showing up
• 15:52
  Speaker 3: secure in your marriage? If you haven't tried that, that
• 15:55
  Speaker 3: is the first thing to try, because when you show
• 15:58
  Speaker 3: up secure, you are must much less triggering to your partner,
• 16:02
  Speaker 3: no matter what their attachment style is, right, And you
• 16:04
  Speaker 3: can see profound change sometimes when you start making changes. Yeah,
• 16:08
  Speaker 3: And so that's always where we start.
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: And I ask you this because specifically, just this week,
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: I had a past client who I used to coach
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: reach Out who is dealing with a severe dismissive avoidant partner.
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: You know, so she's gone through one on one coaching.
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: He's gone he's gone through one on one coaching, they've
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: gone through the group. You know, they've they've utilized all
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: your tools and they're still struggling a little in terms
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: like she's seen many breakthroughs. And so I ask this
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: specifically because I know there's probably multiple people who are
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: dealing with this. When's the line in the sand, DROM
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: And I know that that's a really hard question.
• 16:47
  Speaker 3: It is a hard question, and I think obviously, you know,
• 16:50
  Speaker 3: there's a lot of individual factors that would change my
• 16:56
  Speaker 3: answer right, depending upon the couple. But I think you know,
• 17:00
  Speaker 3: for someone who's gone through extensive, extensive coaching like that,
• 17:04
  Speaker 3: it's usually not that the tools don't work, it's usually
• 17:08
  Speaker 3: lack of engagement with the tools. And das are the
• 17:12
  Speaker 3: most likely to stop engaging with them because the tools
• 17:19
  Speaker 3: force you to self reflect and forced you to take accountability,
• 17:24
  Speaker 3: and das have the hardest time taking accountability because of
• 17:27
  Speaker 3: their defectiveness and shame wound. So essentially what happens for
• 17:30
  Speaker 3: DA's and I know that I've said this before on
• 17:32
  Speaker 3: previous episodes, but just to reiterate it, it's a very
• 17:34
  Speaker 3: important point specifically for dismissive avoidance. The defectiveness wound has
• 17:39
  Speaker 3: so much shame attached to it, and their nervous system
• 17:43
  Speaker 3: is so used to reacting to internal shame through suppression
• 17:47
  Speaker 3: of emotion, like we're not going to admit the shame,
• 17:50
  Speaker 3: We're just going to shove it down and distract away
• 17:52
  Speaker 3: from it and then essentially not take any accountability and
• 17:56
  Speaker 3: make it the partner's fault. Sure, right, And so when
• 18:00
  Speaker 3: when they're deep in the tools, sometimes it just they
• 18:06
  Speaker 3: get more unmotivated, they slip back into their old habits,
• 18:10
  Speaker 3: they stop engaging with the tools, they start going back
• 18:13
  Speaker 3: into more of their suppression. And I mean again, the
• 18:18
  Speaker 3: das have the hardest time. I've seen das completely earn
• 18:21
  Speaker 3: their attachment security. I've seen people do a total one
• 18:23
  Speaker 3: to eighty. But it's the level of dedication to getting there.
• 18:29
  Speaker 3: It isn't that the tools don't work, it's the level
• 18:31
  Speaker 3: of immersion in them. It's like the exact same thing
• 18:34
  Speaker 3: as I want to lose weight, I want to tone
• 18:37
  Speaker 3: up my body. Maybe i'm a size twelve, I want
• 18:39
  Speaker 3: to be a size four. You could have a nutritionist
• 18:42
  Speaker 3: and a personal trainer give you the best plan for that,
• 18:47
  Speaker 3: But if you stop going to the gym and you
• 18:49
  Speaker 3: start going to McDonald's every day again, it's not going
• 18:53
  Speaker 3: to work. And so for das, I think the most
• 18:56
  Speaker 3: important thing that is going to predict their change is
• 18:59
  Speaker 3: the level of interaction with the tools. It has to
• 19:02
  Speaker 3: be a daily dedication because the brain makes changes slowly.
• 19:08
  Speaker 3: It doesn't make changes swiftly. It can change, but it
• 19:12
  Speaker 3: changes through repetition. And so you didn't learn to read
• 19:16
  Speaker 3: in a day, You're not going to learn to engage
• 19:19
  Speaker 3: with your own emotional experience in a day. You're not
• 19:21
  Speaker 3: going to learn to master regulation in a day. You know,
• 19:24
  Speaker 3: those old pathways in the brain do dissipate, but they
• 19:29
  Speaker 3: don't dissipate quickly. And then what fires together wires together.
• 19:32
  Speaker 3: So every time you stop engaging with the tools and
• 19:34
  Speaker 3: go back to your own patterns, you strengthen those old
• 19:37
  Speaker 3: patterns a little bit more. Again, that's right, right, It's
• 19:39
  Speaker 3: just like putting on a few extra pounds when you
• 19:41
  Speaker 3: didn't go to the gym in a McDonald's all.
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: Week, are smoking or anything anything?
• 19:45
  Speaker 3: And so I think what happens for some das is
• 19:47
  Speaker 3: their gung ho in the beginning because their partner has
• 19:50
  Speaker 3: set like the firm's boundaries, and then when when the
• 19:54
  Speaker 3: partner sees improvement, they lax on their boundaries more. The
• 19:57
  Speaker 3: DA again is just more likely to let go of
• 20:02
  Speaker 3: the tools and start to go back into their old habits,
• 20:04
  Speaker 3: and then we see problems start to re emerge. So
• 20:08
  Speaker 3: in the first two years with these tools, you have
• 20:13
  Speaker 3: to dedicate yourself to using them for two I would
• 20:16
  Speaker 3: say about two years. I make me see that that's
• 20:18
  Speaker 3: about the time it takes the brain to really fully
• 20:21
  Speaker 3: make those those changes stick.
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, even if it means like concretely putting something in
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: your phone every year after four hours, like this reminder
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: that just pops up that says, get in touch with
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: your emotions or.
• 20:33
  Speaker 3: Or what are you thinking right now? You know? How
• 20:36
  Speaker 3: can we reframe those thoughts? Yeah, we have to master
• 20:39
  Speaker 3: our thought world and we have to master emotional processing.
• 20:43
  Speaker 3: And when we can master those two things, it's just
• 20:45
  Speaker 3: those two things, then our behavior falls in line the
• 20:50
  Speaker 3: entire human experiences thoughts, emotions, and behaviors. And so if
• 20:55
  Speaker 3: we can master our thoughts and we can fully process
• 20:58
  Speaker 3: our emotions properly through the body to where the brain
• 21:02
  Speaker 3: will let them go and accept them and take the
• 21:04
  Speaker 3: message and integrate the message into the psyche, the emotions
• 21:08
  Speaker 3: usher out, the energy flows out, and we can stabilize
• 21:11
  Speaker 3: our nervous system, and then that opens up the parts
• 21:14
  Speaker 3: of the brain that lead to engagement, connection, empathy, mindfulness,
• 21:19
  Speaker 3: all of those things. But it is something you have
• 21:23
  Speaker 3: to keep doing. I still even have to go back
• 21:27
  Speaker 3: to the tools. Absolutely, it is not something where I'm
• 21:30
  Speaker 3: just yes, I am a different person, but do my
• 21:34
  Speaker 3: husband and I still have difficult moments, yes, because we're human,
• 21:38
  Speaker 3: and it is in those moments where I have to
• 21:40
  Speaker 3: remind myself of the tools and actually actively engage with them. Still, right,
• 21:45
  Speaker 3: if I don't actively engage with them, I will find
• 21:49
  Speaker 3: myself stuck in fight or flight and potentially operating from
• 21:53
  Speaker 3: my attachment trauma. And I'm not willing to do that.
• 21:55
  Speaker 3: I have to dedicate myself to that. And so I
• 22:00
  Speaker 3: think for people who are seeing progress, it's easy to
• 22:05
  Speaker 3: then think you got it right, right, It's easy to
• 22:08
  Speaker 3: be like, ah, I got this, yeah, yeah, and before
• 22:10
  Speaker 3: you know it, you've put on ten more pounds, right
• 22:13
  Speaker 3: or you and essentially you've gone back to some of
• 22:15
  Speaker 3: your old traumatic habits.
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: The destination is it's not a destination.
• 22:19
  Speaker 3: It's not a destination, is an ongoing.
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: Journey, that's right. And so I think too, like in
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: terms of back to divorce, I want to explore a
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: scenario which is a little bit more difficult, which is
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: like abuse. You know, emotional abuse of course is a
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: little bit harder to see, but I know that there's
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: the trauma bond aspect of that. And yeah, so let's
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: just give some advice there for those that maybe are
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: in those situations.
• 22:52
  Speaker 3: So I've had many a client come to me in
• 22:55
  Speaker 3: a trauma bond. I was in a trauma bond with
• 22:57
  Speaker 3: my first husband too. Essentially, a trauma bond is when
• 23:00
  Speaker 3: there has been intermittent reinforcement of both love and abuse.
• 23:05
  Speaker 3: So there's love bombing that and then there's the abuse,
• 23:10
  Speaker 3: and then there's always like some kind of discard, which
• 23:12
  Speaker 3: the discard doesn't have to be an actual breakup or divorce.
• 23:16
  Speaker 3: A discard can just be like being stonewalled for three days,
• 23:19
  Speaker 3: that's a discard. And so but then they come back
• 23:23
  Speaker 3: around with the love bombing. And so it's that intermittent
• 23:28
  Speaker 3: reinforcement of the love with the abuse that keeps the
• 23:32
  Speaker 3: brain sort of neurologically wired into the game of trying
• 23:36
  Speaker 3: to make it work right because the brain sort of
• 23:40
  Speaker 3: predictably knows, well, good is coming back around, so let's hang,
• 23:43
  Speaker 3: you know, and maybe if we can just get over
• 23:45
  Speaker 3: this next crisis, it's going to be fine again. And
• 23:48
  Speaker 3: that's really what people in trauma bond's experience. It's like
• 23:50
  Speaker 3: there's always a crisis, but if we can just get
• 23:52
  Speaker 3: through it, then it'll be fine. And the glue that
• 23:55
  Speaker 3: holds the trauma bond together is toxic hope. And toxic
• 23:58
  Speaker 3: hope is always reinforced by that love bombing or that
• 24:04
  Speaker 3: just initial even breadcrumbing of some good after a while
• 24:08
  Speaker 3: that it sort of keeps you in the game. So
• 24:10
  Speaker 3: there's some good science that radical acceptance of the truth
• 24:15
  Speaker 3: can break toxic hope. So what I tell people to do,
• 24:18
  Speaker 3: and this comes from an actual scientific study that showed
• 24:20
  Speaker 3: that it works, is you write down all the abuse.
• 24:24
  Speaker 3: You write it down on paper, what are the abuse
• 24:26
  Speaker 3: of things that have been said and done? And you
• 24:28
  Speaker 3: look at it every single day. You literally carry it
• 24:31
  Speaker 3: on your person, and when you start to feel sad
• 24:34
  Speaker 3: or whatever, you pull it out and you read back
• 24:37
  Speaker 3: through it, which essentially what that does is it immerses
• 24:39
  Speaker 3: your brain in the truth versus the fantasy toxic hope
• 24:43
  Speaker 3: that continues to come back around from the intermittent reinforcement.
• 24:47
  Speaker 3: And so I am in If you abuse, you lose situation.
• 24:51
  Speaker 3: Now we have like an we can have an FA
• 24:54
  Speaker 3: who's like a toxic fighter. Yeah, and you have to
• 24:57
  Speaker 3: nip that in the bud with a hard boundary. Aways
• 25:00
  Speaker 3: teach the disrespect boundary. If someone is yelling at you,
• 25:02
  Speaker 3: cursing at you, low blowing you, attacking your character, you
• 25:05
  Speaker 3: immediately stop the conversation and say, if you know, I
• 25:08
  Speaker 3: am happy to resume when you stop those things. And
• 25:11
  Speaker 3: if you can't stop those things, you won't have access
• 25:13
  Speaker 3: to to speaking to me. And so that can be
• 25:16
  Speaker 3: enough sometimes for someone to rapidly start trying to change
• 25:22
  Speaker 3: their behavior, because if you hold tight that they lose
• 25:25
  Speaker 3: access to you, right that they have no choice then
• 25:28
  Speaker 3: to change or leave. And so you have to have
• 25:32
  Speaker 3: that boundary. And if that boundary isn't forcing change, like
• 25:35
  Speaker 3: every time you go back near that person, they're engaging
• 25:38
  Speaker 3: in toxic behavior, you have to get out. Yeah, listen,
• 25:41
  Speaker 3: abuse only gets worse over time.
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: And I know that it can be a lot harder.
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's hard no matter what. It's hard no
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: matter what. Sure you know, those those situations where you
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: are trauma bonded. We both know from firsthand experience how
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: difficult it can be to get out. I know that
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: you had the death gasp at everybody as a death
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: like I had like twelve of them, and most of
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: mine were just because we were never married, you know,
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: we weren't legally married, and so I felt like there
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: was it was even more it was even harder actually,
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: because there was no it wasn't finite.
• 26:12
  Speaker 3: Yeah, there was finite. Yeah, like when you signed the papers,
• 26:15
  Speaker 3: it's finite. But he like, I still went back even
• 26:17
  Speaker 3: after I signed the papers. My goodness.
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 26:20
  Speaker 3: I mean that's a testimony to how you know, traumatized
• 26:23
  Speaker 3: I was, and trauma bonded that I was. But I
• 26:26
  Speaker 3: want to circle back around to neglect for a second,
• 26:28
  Speaker 3: because I don't think we I necessarily finished that thought.
• 26:31
  Speaker 3: Imagine you're a parent of a young child and you
• 26:35
  Speaker 3: don't feed that child, and you don't bathe that child,
• 26:38
  Speaker 3: and you don't make that child go to school, and
• 26:41
  Speaker 3: you don't properly clothe that child. Should you still have
• 26:46
  Speaker 3: custody of that child?
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: No?
• 26:48
  Speaker 3: No, In a marriage, emotional neglect is the same as
• 26:54
  Speaker 3: a physical neglect situation with a child. You are, I mean,
• 26:59
  Speaker 3: everybody is emotion responsible for themselves, and we are jointly
• 27:03
  Speaker 3: emotionally responsible for other people. People don't understand how that works. Yes,
• 27:07
  Speaker 3: you are in charge of your own feelings, and it
• 27:10
  Speaker 3: is your responsibility to create a loving, respectful, caring, reciprocal
• 27:14
  Speaker 3: environment where you meet the emotional needs of your partner.
• 27:18
  Speaker 3: That is your responsibility in a marriage that is part
• 27:21
  Speaker 3: of the covenant, and when you don't do that, you
• 27:25
  Speaker 3: are being abusive. It is the same thing as you
• 27:29
  Speaker 3: having a little child that has needs and you fail
• 27:32
  Speaker 3: to meet those needs. Okay, believe it or not. Little
• 27:36
  Speaker 3: children will adapt to neglect by learning how to dress
• 27:39
  Speaker 3: themselves before it's age appropriate. Right. We see this in
• 27:42
  Speaker 3: cases I used to be in social work, where you know,
• 27:45
  Speaker 3: to your old little kids will change their own clothes
• 27:48
  Speaker 3: right because they have parents that are so neglectful, or
• 27:50
  Speaker 3: will take off their own diaper because yes, people can
• 27:53
  Speaker 3: learn to function without their emotional needs being met, but
• 27:56
  Speaker 3: you shouldn't have to.
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: Right, And it's extremely disregulating.
• 28:01
  Speaker 3: It is because healthy relationships require both self regulation and coregulation,
• 28:07
  Speaker 3: which means that you are coming together as a couple
• 28:10
  Speaker 3: to soothe and love each other and meet each other's needs.
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: It's what creates intimacy.
• 28:14
  Speaker 3: It's what intimacy is. And if you are not someone
• 28:17
  Speaker 3: who can do that, you have no business being in
• 28:21
  Speaker 3: a relationship. If you can't fix yourself. Yeah, so, if
• 28:25
  Speaker 3: you are being profoundly neglected, listen, the first thing to
• 28:29
  Speaker 3: try is earning your attachment security and seeing if maybe
• 28:32
  Speaker 3: the way that you respond to your partner is so
• 28:35
  Speaker 3: triggering to them that they're going up into freeze and
• 28:37
  Speaker 3: their nervous system is making that distinction and that choice
• 28:41
  Speaker 3: without their conscious control. And yes, they have responsibility to
• 28:45
  Speaker 3: do work, but a lot of times if you just
• 28:48
  Speaker 3: do the work, you become the model. You become the
• 28:51
  Speaker 3: person who sets the boundaries, who models the appropriate behavior, etc.
• 28:56
  Speaker 3: And then the rest it starts the fall in place
• 29:00
  Speaker 3: because they have a model, they have a picture of
• 29:02
  Speaker 3: what it's supposed to look like, and you're not coming
• 29:05
  Speaker 3: in with all of the things that make them shut down,
• 29:07
  Speaker 3: like the critical communication and the reactivity and all the
• 29:11
  Speaker 3: stuff that we know shuts avoidant people down, especially the
• 29:14
  Speaker 3: dismissive avoidant. So showing up secure is always the first step.
• 29:19
  Speaker 3: I would always do that before you file for divorce.
• 29:21
  Speaker 3: And then once you've done that, you've showed up secure
• 29:24
  Speaker 3: for a solid three four months.
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: Pull the plug, Yeah, pull the plug. Yeah, that's what
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: I was. My next question was just going to be
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: back to like logistics, right, like I think we in
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: terms of the variables that are what you feel your opinion. Again,
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: no legal advice here in terms of what could make
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: a divorce like, yes, okay, it's okay to get divorced.
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: It is okay to get okay in quotations, but if.
• 29:51
  Speaker 3: You've tried everything you can try, it's okay to get divorced.
• 29:53
  Speaker 3: If you're being abused, if you're being neglected, if your
• 29:57
  Speaker 3: deepest needs are not being met, if someone has you,
• 30:00
  Speaker 3: if someone is cheated on you, if your spouse is
• 30:02
  Speaker 3: cheated on you, you can leave the next day.
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: That's right.
• 30:04
  Speaker 3: I agree that you don't have to. You don't owe
• 30:06
  Speaker 3: them one more word. If somebody has abused you, like
• 30:11
  Speaker 3: seriously emotionally or physically abuse you, you don't owe them
• 30:14
  Speaker 3: one more word.
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So back to legally though, you know, is there
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: anything else you would add?
• 30:21
  Speaker 3: Oh for sure? Ohver Okay. The divorce process can be
• 30:29
  Speaker 3: very tedious, and it can be very time consuming, and
• 30:33
  Speaker 3: there can be very expensive, and there can be a
• 30:37
  Speaker 3: desire to skip over a lot of critical parts in
• 30:41
  Speaker 3: order to save money. If you can avoid that, if
• 30:45
  Speaker 3: you can come up with the money some way, somehow
• 30:47
  Speaker 3: to do it correctly, which means that both parties do
• 30:50
  Speaker 3: all of the disclosures, both parties have attorneys. Just protect
• 30:56
  Speaker 3: yourself legally, I know, you think you all can do
• 30:59
  Speaker 3: it nice, and a very small percentage of the population can.
• 31:03
  Speaker 3: I have seen it happen, but it's for sure the exception,
• 31:06
  Speaker 3: not the rule. Most people, especially people that are deeply
• 31:12
  Speaker 3: attachment insecure, will show their greatest insecurities. Divorce will bring
• 31:17
  Speaker 3: out their worst behaviors, and you have to protect yourself legally,
• 31:23
  Speaker 3: and you have to protect and you have to think
• 31:25
  Speaker 3: about what's in the best interest of your child. Yes,
• 31:28
  Speaker 3: I will always say do not let your bitterness or
• 31:30
  Speaker 3: pain or problems with the relationship be known to your child.
• 31:35
  Speaker 3: It's the respect and love, the fact that they are
• 31:39
  Speaker 3: half of your spouse and they deserve to be able
• 31:42
  Speaker 3: to love your spouse, even if your spouse was a
• 31:45
  Speaker 3: crappy partner to you. If they are hurting your children,
• 31:49
  Speaker 3: then you need to let your attorney know and come
• 31:52
  Speaker 3: up with the best strategy to potentially mitigate that through
• 31:58
  Speaker 3: the divorce outcome, like maybe they have less time sharing
• 32:02
  Speaker 3: or less decision making power.
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: There's like parental alienation going on. Oh for sure, the
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: big one.
• 32:07
  Speaker 3: Right, And you do not want to be an alienating
• 32:11
  Speaker 3: parent that is only going to hurt your children. I
• 32:13
  Speaker 3: know you think they deserve it. They deserve to know
• 32:15
  Speaker 3: what a quote pos you think their mom or dad is.
• 32:19
  Speaker 3: But that is your own wounding talking. You are not
• 32:22
  Speaker 3: acting in the best interest of your children. You are
• 32:25
  Speaker 3: acting in your emotional trauma. The best interest of your
• 32:28
  Speaker 3: children is for you to support the relationship as long as.
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: It's safe, acknowledge their feelings.
• 32:35
  Speaker 3: Acknowledge their feelings, encourage a positive relationship with the other
• 32:40
  Speaker 3: parent to the extent that you possibly can put your
• 32:46
  Speaker 3: bitterness aside.
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: And even if your children reject you. Right, because children
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: can reject you in these situations, you know they con
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: side with one parent. I mean one of the best
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: things that my dad ever did for me when my
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: parents were going through a divorce. He looked me straight
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: in the eye and the first thing he said to
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: me was, if you need to take a side, baby,
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: take your mom's. Oh sweet, she needs it more than me.
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: And I mean, now, it was a little bit easier
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: for him to say that because he was asking for
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: the divorce. Yeah, but it made me feel safe, right,
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: It made me feel like, Okay, I don't really have
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: to choose here because I didn't want to.
• 33:23
  Speaker 3: No child does, no, even when you're married, don't parentify
• 33:27
  Speaker 3: your children. Don't talk about your marital problems with your children, even.
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: If they're grown adults. No, doesn't doesn't matter.
• 33:37
  Speaker 3: Your children are not your therapists. Go find a therapist.
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, let's come to me. I help you.
• 33:43
  Speaker 3: You know, but your children don't need to be emotionally
• 33:46
  Speaker 3: responsible for you. You will be their parent until the
• 33:50
  Speaker 3: day you die. Even when they are adults, you are
• 33:53
  Speaker 3: still their parent and they are not emotionally responsible for you.
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: Ever, that's a big one because I know that it's
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: you know, so many people who are going through divorces again,
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: they're just operating from this triggered, constant, triggered response and
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: the children take the brunt of it. And you have
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: to be really conscious of that, so conscious of that.
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: I mean, even in hindsight, I think about all the
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: things that I could have done differently, and knowing what
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: I know now, right from what I've learned from you,
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: and you know, it's never too late, right, It's never
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: too late to repair if you have if you are
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: going through a divorce and you've maybe you know, listen,
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: you're gonna make mistakes, You're gonna regress. But it's in
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: like you say, it's it's always in being able to
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: recognize it sooner. Yes, where security, That's where security comes.
• 34:47
  Speaker 3: From, absolutely absolutely catching it and correct Yeah, you know,
• 34:51
  Speaker 3: and doing your best to show up as the most
• 34:55
  Speaker 3: authentic version of you. That is also the most mos
• 35:00
  Speaker 3: healed and rational version of you. I always say, like
• 35:03
  Speaker 3: the best version of your most authentic self, because authenticity
• 35:07
  Speaker 3: is huge, and I think so many relationships fail because
• 35:10
  Speaker 3: nobody can be authentic. You know, I had a client yesterday.
• 35:13
  Speaker 3: Oh my goodness, the compassion I mean I was. Sometimes
• 35:20
  Speaker 3: it can be really hard to hear about people's trauma,
• 35:23
  Speaker 3: especially their relational trauma, because it brings back a lot, right,
• 35:27
  Speaker 3: and I couldn't coach I could. I could, Yes, Raina
• 35:32
  Speaker 3: was a wonderful coach, but she felt it too deeply
• 35:34
  Speaker 3: in her body.
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it was a lot, lots lots of it was.
• 35:38
  Speaker 3: It was too stressing for her body because you know,
• 35:40
  Speaker 3: fear full avoidance, have high high empathy.
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I get triggered even thinking about it.
• 35:44
  Speaker 3: Yeah, So so we put her in her more comfortable land.
• 35:49
  Speaker 3: I'm exactly where she is, exactly where she needs to be,
• 35:52
  Speaker 3: because she had like you know, you were more like
• 35:54
  Speaker 3: iow psychology, like marketing psychology, and and of course she'd
• 35:58
  Speaker 3: been around me for so long long that like you
• 36:01
  Speaker 3: knew of this each sure you probably have the closest
• 36:03
  Speaker 3: brain to me and coach Elizabeth too. I mean, you
• 36:07
  Speaker 3: know you did an awesome job coaching, but I know
• 36:10
  Speaker 3: that it was emotionally too difficult for you. And I'm
• 36:13
  Speaker 3: not gonna lie. The client a client that I had
• 36:15
  Speaker 3: the other day. It was everything I could do not
• 36:18
  Speaker 3: to cry because it was this man, first of all,
• 36:23
  Speaker 3: and the relational trauma that he had experienced from childhood
• 36:28
  Speaker 3: through multiple marriages, and I could just hear the hurt
• 36:34
  Speaker 3: and the pain so strong in his voice. Yet he
• 36:37
  Speaker 3: was trying so hard to be stoic, and you know,
• 36:40
  Speaker 3: I know not. I always tell people your tears are
• 36:42
  Speaker 3: welcome here, this is a safe space. But I was
• 36:44
  Speaker 3: holding back tears because I remember that tears right now. Yeah,
• 36:49
  Speaker 3: I mean you can tell in my eyes I am
• 36:51
  Speaker 3: because I'm just thinking about the look on his face.
• 36:53
  Speaker 3: He was navigating a second divorce, and I have a
• 36:57
  Speaker 3: lot of clients that are navigating a second divorce, and
• 36:59
  Speaker 3: there's a lot of shame, like, oh, I have two
• 37:02
  Speaker 3: failed marriages. Who is ever going to choose me. Well,
• 37:04
  Speaker 3: my husband has two failed marriages and we have an
• 37:06
  Speaker 3: awesome relationship, So let me just say that there's hope.
• 37:08
  Speaker 3: There's hope, right, But I can see how it was
• 37:13
  Speaker 3: so bad that there was no other choice. But also
• 37:19
  Speaker 3: just like the pain and the shame that in the
• 37:22
  Speaker 3: stigma of going through the divorce process, So listen, there
• 37:26
  Speaker 3: is no shame or stigma that should be there. Marriages
• 37:29
  Speaker 3: sometimes just don't work because there's two people in there
• 37:33
  Speaker 3: and you can only control one, right, and so when
• 37:36
  Speaker 3: you have that other external variable, that's the wild card.
• 37:41
  Speaker 3: You can't help it if they go off the rails,
• 37:43
  Speaker 3: like you can't help it if they turn out to
• 37:45
  Speaker 3: be extremely dysfunctional. All you can do is fix yourself
• 37:49
  Speaker 3: so that you choose a little bit better next time. Yeah,
• 37:53
  Speaker 3: that's all you can do, and be committed to that. Listen.
• 37:56
  Speaker 3: And I want to end by saying this, When you
• 38:00
  Speaker 3: get divorced, your life essentially largely becomes a blank canvas.
• 38:05
  Speaker 3: And that is actually a really beautiful thing that you
• 38:08
  Speaker 3: probably don't realize yet because you're staring at the picture
• 38:11
  Speaker 3: of your old life. But there is so much that
• 38:15
  Speaker 3: you can just create, You can reinvent yourself. I reinvented myself.
• 38:21
  Speaker 3: I am not even a shred of the.
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: Person I loved before.
• 38:24
  Speaker 3: And so it's like, listen, you get to create whatever
• 38:29
  Speaker 3: you want. And I know that you might have kids,
• 38:31
  Speaker 3: and yes, that part of your life will still be
• 38:33
  Speaker 3: the same portrait. Sort of you can recreate that sort of, Yes,
• 38:37
  Speaker 3: you can totally recreate.
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: There's a way better parent outside of my relationship me to.
• 38:42
  Speaker 3: Way way better parent. And I think that you should
• 38:47
  Speaker 3: see that blank canvas not as a scary thing, but
• 38:50
  Speaker 3: as a beautiful thing, because you have so much more
• 38:52
  Speaker 3: control over what you paint on that than you even realize.
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that person.
• 38:57
  Speaker 3: Let's just end on that now.
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So, if you are navigating a divorce or thinking
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: about a divorce, first off, we love you. We're here
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: for you.
• 39:06
  Speaker 3: We understand.
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: We do understand from a from a deep place of Again,
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: I've never been through a divorce, but it felt.
• 39:13
  Speaker 3: Like a divorce and I have been through a divorce.
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but you know doctor Hensley more importantly, she has
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: tools and strategies, yeah, to help you get through it.
• 39:24
  Speaker 3: And to rebuild and to reinvent yourself into the person
• 39:26
  Speaker 3: that you really want to be.
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and be that healthy version of yourself so that
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: in the future that you can get into a healthy
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: relationship and a healthy relationship with self first and foremost.
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: It has to be there first. Yeah, a healthy relationship
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: with Jesus. If that's something that you want to do.
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: Of course, she's never going to push that on.
• 39:45
  Speaker 3: You and not push it on you. But if you
• 39:47
  Speaker 3: come to me and say I want to know Jesus, listen,
• 39:50
  Speaker 3: she will testify, testify. But if you don't, that's okay too.
• 39:54
  Speaker 3: I love you and we have tons of psychology for you.
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: Right, So go check her out at the Datingdecoder dot
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: com soon to be the lovedoc dot com. We have
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: to mention that lots of great new things coming down
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: the pipeline guys when our new rebranding launches. It's going
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: to be super, super exciting, so please stick around. Don't
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: go anywhere because we got lots planned for twenty twenty five. Okay,
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: so go visit her at the Daintycode dot com. Check
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: out her coach Elizabeth. Coach Elizabeth is now running some groups,
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: which is good, but please check her out and until
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: next time, guys, peace, love, and perspective.