Latest / Two Ts In A Pod with Teddi Mellencamp and Tamra Judge / Don’t Fall In Love with a Narcissist

Transcript

Don’t Fall In Love with a Narcissist · Two Ts In A Pod with Teddi Mellencamp and Tamra Judge

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: This is Teddy tepod. Hi guys, who, We're back again
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: number three of Teddy tea Pod and I am really
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: revved up, like really revved up. I have like I
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: got here thirty minutes early because I just needed to
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: know all of the answers so many questions. Starting off
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: with narcissism. I have Dr Romani here with me who
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: and then Jill is going to be co hosting with
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: me today because I've heard she has some experience on
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: a topic which I tried googling and I couldn't find
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: that out. So you're gonna have to enlighten me. But
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: first and foremost, first question, if you're listening to this,
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: for you, what is a narcissist? Okay, so, a narcissist
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: A lot of times we think it's just the person
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: who likes to look at the mirror and loves themselves.
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: It's actually something very different. These are people who lack empathy.
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: They're really grandiose, they're entitled, they're arrogant, they're always seeking
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: admiration and validation. They don't tolerate frustration well and they
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: get really rageful. Uh. They don't really respect the rights
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: of other people. They're manipulative, They take advantage of other people,
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: not nice people. They sound like a real dream and
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: they can also sometimes be very victimy. They'll, you know,
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: they'll blame all of any issues that even they've caused.
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: They'll blame the world for them. They never take responsibility
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: for anything. Okay, So going back on that, what creates
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: a narcissist, So at the core a narcissist is someone
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: who's really insecure. You know, we were told this as kids,
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: like the bullies are the insecure kids in some ways, well,
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: the adult bullies are also really insecure. That's what a
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: mean person is, right, But what ages this normally start
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: for somebody. I Am not going to call someone out
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: as a narcissist until they're really in their early twenties.
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: And I'll tell you why. Our personalities keep developing through
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: childhood and adolescence, and so some of what looks like
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: sort of useful stupidity could easily be labeled narcissism in
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: a seventeen year old. I tell those barons, wait and see.
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: But you know, sometimes when we replay it, we can see, yeah,
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: this was not a very nice person all along, but
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: you still have some chances to make some shifts in
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: their teens by the time they're in their twenty, like
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: around the jello mold is set, like they much you're
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: gonna do around narcissism because you also hear that it's
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: like kind of being overused now or somebody would be like, oh,
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: she's such an narcissist, or he's a narcissistic like with
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: no real backing. So what's the like the pivotal thing
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: that you know this is an narcisist. The pivotal thing
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: is the absolute lack of regard for other people, and
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: that comes out in these different ways, like I'm not
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: waiting in this line, why should have to wait in
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: this line? I'm me? You know, It's like that is,
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: in fact, lack of empathy. It's not just someone who's
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: a jerkin entitled. They do not care that the other
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: people have to wait an extra hour, but they to
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: jump to the head of the line. But yet they're
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: so charming. They are charming and charming, charismatic confident. I
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: always tell people, if you meet someone charismatic, runaway, run away,
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: and that's called the golden period. Well, the golden period
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: is a period we often also called love bombing, at
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: last anywhere from three weeks to three months. And in
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: the love bombing sort of golden hour of a narcissistic relationship,
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: as it were, you are the center of their universe.
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: In essence, you're like a butterfly and they're trying to
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: trap you under glass and once they've got you there,
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: they're just gonna put you up on the shelf and
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: forget about you with the rest of the butterflies. Yeah, okay,
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: So then in that what are like early signs or
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: red flags you can have if you're starting to get
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: into a relationship with a narcissisms They don't listen and
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: they turn around and said, oh, I'm sorry, I have
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: trouble listening cause I have a d h D. I'm like,
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: you didn't have a d h D and I listened
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: to you talk for an hour and a half about
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: your crazy stuff. You know. So they don't listen, they
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: don't pay attention. There overfocused on their devices instead of
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: other people. They do expect to be going to the
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: head of the line. They don't like to wait, they
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: don't tolerate stress well, and most of us will make
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: excuses for them. They're under a lot of pressure at work,
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: their mom is sick. Those things happen, and we may
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: not be graceful, but most of us catch ourselves and say,
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: you know what, I am so sorry. I was rude
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: with you. My mom is sick. Da da da da
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: da versus. Everything is an excuse for them. They literally
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: weaponize everything going on around them into an excuse to
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: get away with what they want. And that comes while
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: also making the other person feel bad. And it's exactly
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: and then, but how are they able to cover it up? Oh?
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: So well, first of all, let's go back to charm
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: and charisma, which is the stinkiest perfume in the world.
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: It covers up everything, so people often excuse them. They're
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: also quite successful. Narcissists make higher salaries than everybody else,
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: so they'll often pick up the check and they'll show
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: you a good time, so people will make excuses saying, well, gosh,
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: we're having such a good time and they did remember this,
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: and they did do this. You get taken in by
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: the charm, and the rest of us who are healthy
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: give people second chances, and we make excuses for people
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: were really good at that. How longer to take you
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: until you? Oh, I didn't know for years. Wow. Yeah,
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: And that's what I see in my clients is years
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: and I feel like the charm everybody sees the charming
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: side of them, but only a few select people see
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: that other side, the narcissistic side of this, like never apologizing.
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: Everything is always your fault, and so people don't realize,
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: and so you're kind of left alone wondering, Okay, well
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: it's me. It must be me. I must be too sensitive,
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: and that's you gas lighting yourself. Gaslighting. There's a new
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: term I just recently learned. Can you explain gaslighting to everybody?
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: So gas lighting is when somebody questions your reality, questions
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: your emotions to the point where that person feels confused.
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: So when somebody called her out and said you're too sensitive?
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: Who was someone to say you're too sensitive? That is
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: ass lighting. That's a that's manipulating her reality. She had
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: a feeling about something, and somebody in essence was saying
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: you shouldn't have had that feeling, you shouldn't feel anything
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: about this. Somebody's saying you're being too angry or that
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: never happened. Those are all examples of gaslight. And after
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: repeated years of this, you really just believe it. I'm
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: not kidding you. I've seen people who have lived through
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: twenty and thirty years of gas lighting, and at the
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: end of this they look like they have post traumatic
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: stress disorder. Somebody messaged me about that, like, I was
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: with my husband for thirty years and I I need,
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: I need to know what to even do because at
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: this point out even know how to live my life anymore.
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: It's heartbreaking. It's absolutely heartbreaking. Do narcissists tend to always
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: end up with a codependent or does somebody become codependent
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: after being with an artist? I don't think they always do.
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: I think a person who's quote unquote code dependent made
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: me more vulnerable to the narcissist tricks, meaning that they
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: may be more likely to go along for the ride,
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: less likely to call them out, and more likely to
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: do more and more and more to please the narcissist.
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: But narcissists sometimes end up with other narcissists. Narcissists sometimes
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: end up with healthy people who come from happy families,
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: and that person from a happy family says, well, love
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: takes care of everything, and if I just love them enough,
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: this will all be okay. I don't know that that's codependent.
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: I mean, I think we want to be careful labeling
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: the other person in a narcissistic relationship, thinking there must
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: be something wrong with them for putting up with it.
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: We are sold a bill of goods in our society
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: that somebody that charming, that charismatic, and that's successful can't
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: be a bad person. How do you know if you're
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: codependent or not? I think that when you when other
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: people start pointing the pattern out to you and you
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: still say no, no, no no, it's okay, it's okay. You
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: start the more you're making your cheating on you and no, no, no,
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: you're you're misreading that, or you know they're they're just friends, okay.
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: And what do you think in your relationship your dynamic was?
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: I felt that it was There was always an explanation
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: if I felt something was off. Can you give me
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: an example, UM, if I was to find or if
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: I was to see, you know, some somebody texting him
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: on his phone and it was you know, he was
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: on his phone a lot, and I would ask, you know,
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: who are you texting? And he would automatically have this
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: response of a name, and I'm like, why, why? Why
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: is she texting you, And he always was so quick
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: to have this explanation of why this person needed to
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: be talking to him at that very moment, and I
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: would just be like, oh, yeah, of course, because I
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: just I completely trusted everything that was said, and so
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: like little things like that that you wouldn't think we're
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: too big of a deal. They just added more and
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: more and more and more. Would he also say things like,
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: you know, this is your issue if you don't trust me,
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: why are you asking why I'm texting you? You know?
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: And you were the one you're you feel like you're right.
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. You're the one who's
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: always apologizing for everything, even though you know in your
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: heart that you didn't do anything wrong. But yet you're
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: the one constantly apologizing. And if somebody else was to
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: notice something, like some of my family was to say
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: something about him like legs they saw, I would then
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: get mad at the family, yes, and hide it from him.
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: So that so then this brings me my next question.
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: Are all narcissist cheaters? No, but a lot are a lot,
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: So keep in mind people cheating relationships for a range
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: of reasons. Some narcissists interestingly are They love playing the
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: hyper moral, hyper loyal card, Like they go the other
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: extreme and if they hear of even the tiniest transgression,
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: they become like completely judgmental and cruel. So they tend
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: to take extremes. But what a narcissist does is they
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: choose whatever path is going to validate them and feed
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: their ego. So for you can see how cheating would work, Right,
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: somebody pays attention to you, You're getting new narcissistic supply.
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: Isn't this great? You think you can get away with
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: it because they're entitled. They almost feel like they have
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: the right to have an inappropriate relationship with anybody they want, Like,
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: who's going to stop me? I deserve this because I'm me.
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: The relationships that they have with other people, and is
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: it always just to benefit themselves, Like they're always looking
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: to use the other person for something. They're always looking
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: to either feed their ego or protect their ego. Right,
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: so you know it's sort of using the example we're
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: having of cheating. And sometimes it's not even like they're
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: having sex, right, it's those inappropriate text messages and inappropriate
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: times that they get together. It's a poor boundaries they're
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: really bad at boundaries, because when your boundaries are tight,
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: you're not turning to someone for all this validation. You're like, let's,
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: you know, let's just stop there. So it's a it's
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: always but yes, by and large, their relationships with other
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: people serve almost solely to suit their needs. And I
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: hate to say this is even happens when they are parents.
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: People like what they're a parent. I'm like, yeah, and
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: watch this one go down, because that kid becomes their
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: source of narcissistic supply. Look at my kid, he plays soccer.
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: Look at my daughter, she does ballet, you know, and
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: god forbid if that kid doesn't perform. Oh no, they
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: may reject them, they may escape go with them. They
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: most often it's not even that sinistry. They just kind
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: of ignore them. They get bored. They're really cute when
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: they're tiny. Around six or seven, they start feeling like
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: a nuisance. And then what does that do to your fild.
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: You've got one or three paths you take if you've
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: had a narcissistic parent. I really see it come down
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: to three paths. Path number one, the kid becomes really
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: anxious as an adult. Path number two, the kid becomes
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: a narcissist as an adult. Path number three, we see
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: people who go on to have disorders of what we
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: call regulations substance use, eating disorders, problems with spending, problems
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: with managing their emotions, lashing out, managing any strong emotions.
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: Pick one, Pick one of those three paths, and sometimes
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: a person can have more than one more often than not.
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: What I've seen in my work is people who have
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: a narcissistic parent become incredibly anxious, and they become anxious
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: and self doubting and constantly seeking reassurance as adults. This
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: is great, This is like group therapy during my lunch show.
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: Really enjoy thanks so and and and saying that when
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: you're dealing, let's say, with a narcissistic parent or husband
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: or wife or whomever it is, they don't know they're
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: a narcissist, do they really not know? They really don't know.
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: I mean, you know, it's it's imagine if you had
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: a broken arm, you would do everything you could to
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: protect that bone, you get a cast on it. That's
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: how they are with their egos. But they're not as
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: aware that everything they're doing is to protect this fragile core.
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: So they don't have that much insight into what they're
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: doing to other people because they don't pay attention to
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: other people. Other people only serve the purpose of helping them.
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: This water bottle only serves a function of giving me water.
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: Once the waters out of it, I'm gonna throw it out.
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: That's what they do with people. But then I also
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: read that. I also read that um narcissists if they
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: if they have a wife or somebody that leaves them,
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: then they're even worse to their next person. Well, you
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: know that's people ask me, because I'd say about a
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: third of my practice is narcissistic clients. Believe it or not,
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: I don't. Yeah, it's can be gnarly, but I'll tell you.
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: Everyone's like, well, then why the heck did they come
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: in if they don't have insight? Because something goes wrong
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: in their life. Someone files a lawsuit, they lose a job,
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: their their spouse or partner leaves them, their kid no
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: longer speaks to them. Something goes wrong and they're not
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: They're confused as to why this happens, and then they
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: come in. I'm like, what are exactly are you confused about?
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: I wouldn't be speaking to you either, you know, so
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: they don't get it. They it's almost like they forget,
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: they forget the harm. It's like every conversation with them
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: is like groundhog Day, like we just went through this
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: because to them, an apology is permission. They're like, Okay,
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: I said sorry, so now I can go do it again,
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: and you've forgiven them, so like this is great. I
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: can keep making this mistake and this fool is going
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: to keep coming back around. So they just don't get it.
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: They don't see it. And I'll be honest with you,
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: the biggest mistake you could ever make is calling a
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: narcissist out because that's your that's your a sus bades
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: right there. You do not want them to know, you know,
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: because once you do that, they are going to take
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: the gloves off. Did you do that? And what happened? Well?
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: I really struggled with after everything happened, I felt, what's
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: everything happened? Sorry? We dated and once I like confronted
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: him about a whole bunch of things and you know,
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: basically figured out the type of person that he was,
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: I left feeling incredibly weak and I felt like, how
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: could I have let this happen? How could I have
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: fallen for this when in fact, like three years and
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: years of therapy and you know, working through this, you
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: can't really you can't blame yourself because you never know
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: who this person is going to go after. And so
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: that was a real struggle for me, was feeling like
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: it was my fault. How could I have let how
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: could I have fallen for this guy? But I'm going
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: to stay with him for so long? After being with
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: the narcissist so long, it did such a number on you.
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: You got so masterful at blaming yourself for everything. You
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: even blame yourself for even getting in it and staying
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: in it. Yeah, and I still do, and even like
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: in future relationships, thinking like, oh, well, nope, he's too confident. Nope,
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: you can't go there. And so I find myself, you know,
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: noticing teeny tiny little things and people when it's definitely
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: affected me for future relationships for sure, it definitely leaves
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: a long echo. And then when you see somebody so
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: like one of my best friends her husband now about
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: to be ex husband for sure, Like from the moment
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: I met him, I was like, this seems like a
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: narcissist to me. But I've also seen him, you know,
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: get caught for cheating. Are these different things have happened
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: and I've seen him like break down to her like
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: I am so sorry, you are everything to me and
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: do this whole big show. Is that all just a show?
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: Or is there any feeling of remorse? Earth they're just
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: feeling of getting caught or do they even care that
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: they got caught? It's a show with a function. So
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: what I mean by that is they narcissist is not
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: a psychopath. There's a difference than contessa. You also tell
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: me the difference between narcissist. All right, I will tell
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: you the difference that I'm gonna go back to your question.
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: So narcissist, psychopath, sociopath alright, a little bit different? All three? Okay.
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: A narcissist actually does feel remorse, and they particularly feel remorse,
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: like they know they can look at someone's face and say, well,
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: that wasn't a good thing to do, like a little kid.
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: Like they can see when they break something that their
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: mom's upset. They're like, oh, I shouldn't have picked up
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: that glass. She told me not to. Psychopath does not
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: feel that they will they'll shoot you point blank and
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: go eat lunch like that. That's and the narcissists won't
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: do that. Oh my god, we're gonna do with the body.
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: I don't know, they'll get really worked up. Okay, so
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: when they throw you know, please don't leave me, DADAA.
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: A lot of that's driven by shame. They the narcissist
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: knows they are going to get publicly called out. I
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: think that narcissist was originally like neglected or you know,
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: there's different ways a person because gets to be narcissistic.
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: We do know it starts early in life. It's believed
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: that people are narcissistic didn't have the opportunity to create
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: a really secure attachment to a caregiver like a mom
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: or a dad. Sometimes they're raised by narcissist, Like I said,
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: times they're raised in homes where the parents are just
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: not a tune. That a parent might be struggling with addiction,
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: a parent may be struggling with anything. The household is
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: characterized by chaos for some reason. When you have a
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: really really sort of mean, authoritarian parent, which many people
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: did in their dads for generations, that that can breed narcissism.
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: But then when you add to that a child who
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: may be spoiled, like in terms of material stuff, you
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: can have anything you want. Here's a phone, here, here's
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: a car, here's this, here's that. But they never get
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: their emotional needs met. So when that child has real emotion,
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: they're really sad, they're really confused. There's no adults anywhere
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: to be found. You need a new phone, They're right there.
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: You want to go on a fancy vacation and post
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: pictures to Instagram, Mom and dad are on it. But
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: when there's a real emotional need, these they are completely malnourished.
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: So by the time they get into adulthood, they learned
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: that superficial, vain things will feed that emptiness that lives
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: inside of them. They don't know how to regulate, and
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: they never learned how to have empathy for other people.
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: You don't teach your kid empathy by the age of
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: seven or eight, you're screwed. And then I have a question,
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: So I understand if you have a you know, a
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: husband or a wife or a boyfriend and girlfriend that's
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: a narcissist, and you finally figure out a way to
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: get away and do treatment on yourself to try to
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: get over the pain of like the PTSD. But what
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: if it is apparent. If it's apparent, I mean, in fact,
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: that's something I take on quite a bit in this
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: new book. If it is apparent, you can't You may
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: not be able to divorce your parents. And the hard
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: thing is them being narcissistic left real echoes in your
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: own life, which is hard to even reflect on how
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: this affected you. But you can set boundaries, and I
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: have worked with many clients on many different ways. Sometimes
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: people set a time or they their parents are too
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: old to know that that's not the phone ringing that
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: that's the time or going off, and they said it
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: for an hour, an hour and a half, the thing
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: goes off, like you know what, I got it, This
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: is an important call, and they get out. They come
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: up with a list of topics that are not controversial.
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: How's the weather? Did you see they're making a new
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: grocery store? Can you believe the neighbors painted their mailbox red? Like?
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: Really keeping it neutral? The parents, the narcissist gets frustrated
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: when you change your game like that. Because narcissistic parents
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: can often be jel lists of their adult kids. They
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: can covet their lives. The narcissistic parents will often play
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: the victim, so if you take away their ability to
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: do that anymore, they'll often feel like, oh, here you
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: are trying. In fact, I've had numerous clients tell me, oh,
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: what's your shrink teacher to talk to me like this?
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: You know, so they really are like they notice the
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: change in the temperature. Because a narcissist does well when
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: there's a fight going on, so they're often gunning for
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: a fight, right. They come back always too. You can
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: have the worst fights with them that you're like, whoa,
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: this is gnarly, and they are back the next day
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: like it didn't happen, and that's that that's happen. And
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: if you want to talk about it again, they don't
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: want to. And it's almost like they don't even remember
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: it happened. But they'll remember it if it's convenient to
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: remember one mean thing you said in the conversation. They've
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: got this amazing evolved in their brain. So and then
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: they also kind of know what your weaknesses are, right,
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: and then they'll just tummel them and tell because I mean,
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: that's the thing about they are able to pay a tension,
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: you know, if they're able to pay close enough attention
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: to mine out your weaknesses to use them against you.
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: They're able to. They're just only paying attention for their
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: own benefit. But so I tell you know, many people say,
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: my mom's and narcissist, my dad's a narcissist. But I
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: really adore my siblings and I want to go to
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: Thanksgiving dinner, And so I say, I set them ground
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: rules on like just stick to the neutral topics on
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: the list, set boundaries, give yourself breaks, don't stay in
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: the house with them, like you know things you can do,
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: so you don't. You know, it's still probably gonna get
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: to an argument, but this time you'll understand the why
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: instead of feeling like, why doesn't my mom or dad
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: love me? You know what's sadly, it's sort of like
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: this more empty, superficial version of love. Teach yourself, this
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: isn't about you. Maybe they sort of quote unquote did
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: the best they could, but don't personalize that this was
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: them not being a fit parent. It's not about you
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: not being a fit child. All right, guys, we've got
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: to take a break. But I want to dig into
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: like what drives people to be, Like we're attracted to
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: the narcissist. Okay, so we're back with Dr Romani and
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: also Jil and we're on the topic of narcissism and
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: coming back what drives somebody to almost always go to
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: a narcissist. You know a lot of people will say
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: when they meet a narcissist, they feel so much chemistry,
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: we have a magical connection. I've never felt like this
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: again went before. When I hear that, I tell my client,
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: a right, let's put the brakes on this real fast,
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: because that's often a sign that the thing that's being
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: activated is an ancient script, some kind of early form
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: of invalidation you experience that you're trying to work through.
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: And in fact, a brilliant woman I know Dr Pamela
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: Rigan I work with, who's a relationship researcher. You know,
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: she said that what people call chemistry is actually that
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: ancient familiarity of the past, and you just keep playing
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: out that dysfunctional story over and over again instead of saying, Wow,
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: this is a functional love story, like this is a
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: magical love story. Why because it's almost nostalgic, it's so ancient,
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: like you're chasing the higher, you're chasing the old story
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: like this time, I'll get dad to love me, you know,
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: and you keep finding lots of rejecting partners and you
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: this time, this time, I'm going to get it right.
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: Instead of realizing like that was Dad's story, You're you're
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: all good. You're confusing too, because they do love you
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: at first, they show that, but they're What it is
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: is it's it's it's much like a baby likes to
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: be swaddled and picked up. It's an overwhelming experience so
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: that if anyone else comes along and it's almost like
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: a soft pedal dating experience and it's not so connecting
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: people like, well this isn't exciting. I think it's probably healthy.
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: And I have a question if that is you, for
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: like my listeners, how do you start to equip yourself
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: to not make those same mistakes starting I don't know
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: if you call them mistakes, but they're not mistakes that
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: you know what it is. Become aware of your backstory
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: because a lot of people almost want to maintain a
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: fairy tale of their family of origin, like we were
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: a great family and everything's great and like yeah, everyone
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: kind of got it, or they paint this picture and
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: they don't really look into what did that do to
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: them as a kid, how often they were trying to
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: win their parents over. You've got to know where where
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: the minds are buried so you don't step on them.
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: You know, you've got to know what it is about
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: your backstory that makes you vulnerable. Number one. Number two
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: listening to something like this, reading about this, knowing that
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: this pattern is toxic, and no, you are not going
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: to be the one to magically turn the frog into
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: a prince. It doesn't work that way for the people
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: listening that, like, can't afford to go to therapy or
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: do those types of things. Are there certain books or
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: anything that you recommend While I'm going to be a narcissist,
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: I'm going to mention my own I actually do think
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: my I've been I've been a professor for years, so
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: actually right, I know my students don't love to read,
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: so I try to write in a way like if
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: I can get them to read, I get anyone to read.
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: So I have two books on this, one called Should
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: I Stay or Should I Go? Surviving a Relationship with
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: the Narcissist, And the other book is called Don't You
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: Know Who I Am? How to Stay? Saying in an
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: era of narcissism, entitlement, and incivility. Between those two books,
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: you'll understand not only intimate relationship, but also all of
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: the other kinds of relationships and why this is becoming
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: more and more common in our world. Than what to
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: do about it. There's also tons of other good books.
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: If you put narcissism into Amazon, it's like it's a tsunami.
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: There's also really great podcast There's shows like this one
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: you're doing today. I have a YouTube channel um on
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: exactly on this and we have tons of content. So
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: the content is out there, and it's amazing how many
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: people are self educating on this topic. And may I
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: ask you a personal question? I don't know if I
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: wanted to ask that. Do you have personal experience studying? Yeah,
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: you want to know about drugs, talk about and talk
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: to an old drugging, you know, and if you want
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: to don't want to know about narcissism. Absolutely, I mean,
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: and this has happened to me in professional spheres and
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: family spheres and professional spheres, and I began to really
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: doubt myself. I'm like, wow, maybe this is because I'm
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: this And I thought, no, there's some and then I
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: got into doing it in my research. I actually my
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: university based research got to be about this particular topic.
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: And then all the pieces came sort of sliding in together,
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: and it was like now I see it more and
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: more and more of my clients here in l A
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: kept coming in and telling me the same story about
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: their marriages something, and I kept writing them emails like, okay,
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: just a review what we did. And I said, I
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: keep writing the same email over and over again. I
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: might as well write a book. That's where that second
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: book came from. So on that same token, Like a
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: lot of people. I did something on my answer story
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: that said, just like, ask me your questions on narcissism,
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: and I had hundreds of people right in, I'm married
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: to a narcissist. Yes, so many people. What do I do?
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: But like, really, what do you do? You have a
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: family together, you love the person you have. I mean
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: a lot of them are saying, we have really good
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: times together and then there's really dark times. But what
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: do you do? Is there any hope of a happy life?
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: Canna narcissism a narcissist? Be happy? The best thing I
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: can tell them this is going to sound like the
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: most awful thing to hear is you've got to keep
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: your expectations realistic. When you're having a good day, ride
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: that wave out and then know that there's probably going
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: to be a series of rainy days. You know that
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: your trust may get broken. Um, but the expectations need
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: to be realistic. I think a lot of times people
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: want an explanation, why are you like this? You're never
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: going to get that explanation. You're never going to get it.
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: They don't get it themselves, and so there's a lot
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: of frustration. But I think the biggest issue becomes from
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: the fact that they believe they can change this person.
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: If I lose weight, if I if I'm nicer, if
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: I keep the house cleaner, if I get more money,
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: if I don't work, if I raise the kids better,
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: if we can I mean, I've heard every possible trick.
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: People have tried to say, maybe if I do this,
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: then no, they're never going to change. In fact, the
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: person doing all this stuff is changing. But the narcissis.
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: Narcissism actually is like it's like the weather in California,
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: Like it's kind of always the same. It's just very
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: steady and it and it's It's unchangeability in some ways
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: makes it manageable because, you know, how do you start
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: disarming a narcissist. You don't fall for their tricks and traps.
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: You need to be comfortable with your own reality. The
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: only way someone can gaslight you is because you are
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: willing to doubt your own reality. No. Yeah, and if
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: somebody tells me this guy is purple, I'm like, no,
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: I'm doubling down on the fact that the sky is blue.
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: And if you have a problem with that, I'm not weird. Good.
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: How do they react to that? When you sort of
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: stand up for yourself more, um, sometimes they get scared.
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: They're almost like the wicked witch, you know, like they're like, oh, okay,
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: you know, and they will, especially if you do it
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: early in the game. You had even said, like, you know,
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: we had talked earlier, what would attracts the person. One
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: thing they don't like at first, they'll say, oh, you're
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: being a little playful. They're going to keep trying to
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: seek out your vulnerabilities. If you don't know that you're
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: going into Mortal Kombat, you're not going to be ready
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: for this. But if you know what you're doing, it's
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: actually very interesting to spar with them. But the key
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: piece is to not feed the beast. You don't you
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: don't validate them, you don't give them anything, and then
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: they're going to get bored of you, right, you know,
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: they're just gonna move on to the next person. I'm
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: not getting anything here. You're not telling me I'm great,
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: you're not making things happen for me, you're not getting
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: me Lakers tickets, like, there's nothing happening in this relationship.
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: So I'm out. And but once you're in it for
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: a long time, they know they can get things from you,
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: so it really really gets hard. And I'll be honest
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: with you. Some people stay married to narcissists not because
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: they love them, but because they don't want to co
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: parent with them and they don't want to share custody.
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: They don't want the kids to be alone with the
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: narcissistic parents just because they feel like the parent is
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: just not a good parent. And if they are alone
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: with their kids, what are some things that are going
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: to happen. They get bored with them, they get irritated
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: with them, They may say bad things about the other parents,
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: you know, like whereas in any divorce, no matter how
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: much you may dislike your ex, your responsibility to your
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: parents is to protect the parents. And you know, the
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: the child's eyes of the parent in essence like their
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: view of the parent, and narcissistic parents will have no
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: problem completely doing a number on the other parent trying
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: to win them over. So normal to be a little
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: bit afraid of the narcissist, like I have a lot
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: of fear, or like I always feel like I'm walking
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: on eggshells. Well, the walking the eggshells piece absolutely, because
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: you never know what's going to set them off because
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: they're so insecure, they're very hyper sensitive. So like the
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: hiniest little thing like oh, that's interesting, I love that tie.
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: You wore it till last week's dinner. What do you mean?
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: What do you trying? What do you try to say?
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: I only have one tie, Like, you know what, I
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: have a thousand ties? You know what talent this? I'm
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: not going on this dinner, you know, I'm like I
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: just said you. But they do sort of do that
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: thing too, where they're like, I'm done talking, I'm done talking.
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: It's called stonewalling, and that's actually one of the signs
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: that a relationship is kind of coming to an end. Yeah.
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: So if you're in that place where you are being
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: stone walled, you have kids, you're afraid to co parent,
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: what do you do? You get therapy, you join support groups.
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: You realize that kids do move out of the house,
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: hopefully in most cases when they're eighteen. It's gonna be
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: a long ride. I've watched parents white knuckle this stuff
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: for sixteen years, Like I'm not going to sugarcoat this
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: and say some magical anti narcissist fairy is going to
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: come fluttering down and make it all better. You signed
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: up for something rough. My My goal in my work
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: is to prevent people from getting into marriages like this
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: in the first place, to understand what they're are dealing with.
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: But in fact, people there was a research study done
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: and people who are dating are more likely to rate
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: a narcissist as a better marriage partner than somebody who's not.
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: Why because the narcissists looks so much better on paper,
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: and I like, you feel amazing sometimes sometimes and it's
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: the sometimes it makes it like an addiction. You're chasing
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: the high, like I want to feel like I felt
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: like last Saturday, you know, so instead of somebody who
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: makes you feel good all the time, and somebody's are
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: like every day it's good, So it's not interesting. But
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: when you have those ups and downs, it's addiction. So
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: if if you're listening to if somebody's listening to this
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: right now and they're thinking, could I potentially be a narcissist?
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: How do you self evaluate in any way? You know
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: what I say, First of all, bravo to you for
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: even considering it. And I've had many clients come to
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: me and say, you know what, I'm not nice to
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: other people. I was raised by these people who told me, like,
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: you know, other people's feelings are b s, don't concern
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: yourself with them, all that sort of thing, and so
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: they really minimize That's how they were raised. Now they're
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: adults and realizing they can't get into a healthy relationship
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: and they feel like their lives are really impoverished as
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: a result. It's a slow burn with them. I mean,
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: we can only get so far. This is like somebody
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: who's never used their legs and we're trying to get
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: them to use their legs for the first time. It's
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: it's tough. And so when people start realizing they may
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: be the first thing I tell them is it's like
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: training for a marathon. You've got to be on it
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: all the time. You have to you have to pay
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: attention to other people's feelings, and it's going to feel
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: weird for you have to be mindful all the time,
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: like you have to stop, you have to listen, you
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: have to reflect back, you have to think about what
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: they're feeling. And many people are saying, are you serious?
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: I need to do all of this, and I'm like, yeah,
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: that's called a relationship. And so you're teaching them what
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: they should have been taught when they were small children.
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: It's very, very slow, because I feel like I've had
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: conversations with narcissists before where they'll ask all the right questions,
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: but you can tell by how they respond they most
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: likely weren't even listened. Probably not. Probably it's hard for them,
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: like they're just going through the motions of asking you
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: what they think you want to be asked. And so
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: the question is it'body going to be content being with
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: someone who's just going through the motions. That's a very
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: personal question. Some people might say, listen, if if I
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: can manage going through the motions for twelve more years.
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: When the kids are gone, I'm out, you know. And
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: that's again, I think everyone makes very sometimes on the
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: basis of culture finances. Nobody gets to judge. But what
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: my goal is is to try to give people tools
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: so they can make this so it's as healthy and
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: is at least not getting as invalidated all the time
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: as they are currently by staying in these relationships. People
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: like I have this experience where I think they're a narcissist,
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: and I know enough about narcissists to know how bad
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: that is, and uh, oh, you need to like prove it,
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: like yes, yes, Amy, you nailed it. You know what
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: you said, something that I've seen so many people do.
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: They're like, I gotta get enough data, enough evidence, so
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: I'm convinced. But in the process of getting that data
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: and that evidence, they break their own hearts over and
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: over again, and to say, why can't it's almost again
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: it's gaslighting yourself. Why couldn't you trust yourself the first
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: time when you were invalidated? Nobody deserves that, but you
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: kind of crave that, like almost feeling that you got
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: from before, and it's like not feeling worthy, like the
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: hope you're wrong, the hope, you're willing, you know that
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: you can change them. And these relationships are kept in
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: place by two dynamics, hope and fear. Hope it's going
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: to get better, and fear What if I leave? What
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: if he's not really like this? What if? What if
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: there was no one else? Yeah? What if I never
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: feel this way again? And you always can? You not
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: only can. What is glorious to witness is after people
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: have left narcissistic relationships and learn what's really important. The
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: love stories. I've seen people walk into their like I
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: never would have looked at this person twice And now
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: every day I walk through the world feeling important and
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: beautiful and loved and I don't doubt myself and I
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: never thought it could be this way. It's it's stunning
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: to witness. And I mean, this might be an ignorant question,
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: but it's narcissism. Is it women or what's the I'm
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: spitballing women that's about to start shifting. I hate to
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: say I'm glad we fought for some of its social media.
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: I think women are are finally and deservedly so fighting
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: for their place in the workplace. But sadly the way
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: corporate America's run, there is some incentivizing of being a narcissist,
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: so in order to climb up in that, women who
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: have those qualities sometimes will do better. Girls are affected
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: by narcissistic man. I almost have to create that within
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: it does it would be kinder. Yeah, they're allowed to be.
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: And keep in mind too, it used to be for
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: a woman to be narcissistic. It might have been trickier
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: because it might have been harder for her to get married,
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: which is almost a societal requirement. We don't require that
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: of women anymore, you know, So some of those things
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: that you might have socialized out of women, And I'll
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: be honest with you, narcissism and women can come off
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: more as a victimhood, a coldness, a distance, rather than
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: that kind of mean spirited combativeness. Tell you more about women,
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: How do you know? As a woman, and same way
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: as men? I mean, they don't they They are contemptuous
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: of other people's feelings. They view other people's feelings as weak.
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: They're very competitive, they don't account for other people's feelings.
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: They are very entitled. I see it all the time.
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: I see women's narcissism. I've been hurt by women's narcissism.
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: It's it's equally ugly to men's. There's really no difference.
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: Let's say that you you break free from the narcissist,
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: and what's the first thing a person should do or
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: could do to help yourself feel better. I tell people
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: you need a detox speriit. You've just been through something
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: that's you know, sort of on the fringes of the
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: neighborhood of traumatic and sometimes fully traumatic. You need a
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: moment to I always advise some form of support, whether
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: that's therapy, whether that's group support, you know, whether that's
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: just you just sort of doing the deep dive, and
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: don't try not to get right into another relationship because
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: it's like that that scar tissue is really raw. And
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: then I think it's about for a while, you're going
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: to overcorrect and you're going to say no to a
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: lot of people like to go but no charming charming
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: and that's okay, that's okay. I'd rather a person overcorrect
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: than under corrects in many ways. And then you've got
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: I tell people, start with building all those relationships you
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: ignored all those years, because you've got to remember most
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: of us put of our effort into our most toxic
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: relationships and only ten into our most healthy, reciprocal giving relationships.
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: Why those really healthy relationships are like, we're cool, I
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: love you all the time. When you get in touch,
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: we're good. But you don't have to constantly feed them.
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: Flip that math, go back to those healthy relationships and
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: recognize what it feels like to look into a mirror again.
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: I think you nailed on something saying reciprocal, because narcissistic
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: relationships are not at all, like at all, No, none
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: at all. I mean it's like a mirror that doesn't
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: look back, which is actually really unsettling, you know when
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: you think about they're not reciprocal. And I think that
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: people sometimes feel in control early in a narcissistic relationship
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: because they're doing all the work there and and then
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: the narcissistic partner maybe trying to win them over again
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: deals like it's reciprocal, and then it goes it goes away,
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: and what do I need to do to get it back?
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: How do I get that back? And now you're peddling
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: faster and faster, trying to create a time in a
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: relationship that's never going to come back again. Ever, we're
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: gonna take a little break here and then we're going
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: to talk to UM some of our narcissist hold on
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: what's the word, like somebody who's survivors of narcissary abuse. UM,
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: We're going to take a little break here, and then
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: we're gonna come back. I'll ask more questions, but also
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: talk to some survivors of narcissists. So now we're back
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: and we're talking directly to a friend of mine. I
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: don't know, maybe my boss a surviving nurse. I think
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: I still have doubts. I always doubt, like were they
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: I think they were pretty sure when it's like there's
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: four thousand signs that they were or are. But you
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: know what, it highlights how important it is for us
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: to not get so stuck in the label because then
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: people are like, well that didn't so maybe they're not.
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: I say, pay attention to how someone makes you feel.
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: So if you're feeling no respect and they're manipulating you
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: and their gaslighting you and they're twisting your truth and
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: they're not respecting your feeling, thank you against other people.
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: That what you triangle thing is super big. It's very
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: big forms where they get their power, and they all
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: have triangles, even the sorry, can you explain the triangle
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: thing to me? So Dr MNI can probably explained, but
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: I would explain it as OK, here's like a loose example.
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: There's always a wife or another girlfriend and it's like, oh,
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: they were being terrible, so I was super excited to
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: see you, but now you're being terrible and I can't
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: wait to go back to them. Like classical that happened,
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: and they likely grew up like that. Triangulation is often
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: a dynamic you learn in the family, and then that's
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: what they do. They will pit the mistress and the
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: wife for the boyfriend and the husband against each other.
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: So and remember what's the great about that setup is
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: the narcissist has a guaranteed source of narcissistic supply because
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: the wife is aggravated, you got the mistress. You mistress aggravated,
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: you got the girlfriend, or until we both until you're
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: both And that's that's the best day of my year
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: when I watch a narcissists were both the wife and
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: the mistress walk out the same day, like that's like
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: a holiday around my house. So when they're doing that,
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: when the narcissist is doing that. Are they just getting
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: off on the fact that they can completely control two people.
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: It's not a getting off because that makes it sound
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: it's almost too conscious. Then it's a it's a need
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: getting met. Like they don't love it, but they love it.
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: It's like it's like drinking blood. That's what I was like.
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: Each person is giving them something that their ego needs
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: to feel like because somebody said something to me like, yes,
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: I have cheated on my wife before, but the thing
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: is I would never cheat on her with somebody that's
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: been with a lot of people. It has to only
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: be me. I'm like, why would you? Why would you
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: believe that they're only with you they're cheating, you know, Like,
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: so what is that? So they believe in things that
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: again protect them and help them feel good, and that
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: that's it's almost they almost are veering into the delusional territory.
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: That's how much that their beliefs are so skewed there
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: they seem like they're deluded. They're not. Even ironically, they
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: question everyone else's reality, but they're not in their own.
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: To a narcissist makes them feel good, absolutely absolutely, because
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: it gives them. Think about it, when someone makes them
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: feel good as long as it's not about them. Even
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: if it's about them, it's power. It's power because now
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: you've shown me to be weak. I go back to
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: Jill's examples, and in some ways it was like she
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: was rendered weak in that relationship. Oh do you really
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: care who was texting me? God? Are you really that insecure? Now?
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: Imagine how much more powerful he was than her at
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: that point. And he got me to change my relationships
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: with other people. I am so close with my family,
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: and when we were together, there would be weekends where
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: we wouldn't see each other whatsoever because he didn't want
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: me going somewhere or And in my mind I knew
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: it was wrong. In my heart, I knew it was wrong.
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: But yet hearing him explained that he needed me to
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: stay home, I was like, of course, yeah. And then
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: weeks and weeks and weeks would go by. I'm not
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: seeing my family, I'm not seeing my friends, And it
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: just completely changed me as a person. And the one
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: thing I will say is when this relationship ended, I
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: was just dead inside. I didn't know who I was.
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: I wasn't I was not me at all. Um we
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: were together, I mean a little over five years off
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: and on for even longer. But that five years of
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: span of like was a good run. But it was
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: just like I wasn't me and it took a really
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: long time for me to feel like myself again because
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: I felt nothing. Why does she seem so much healthier
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: than me? Because it really is time, And that's why
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: I'm saying, like, even after that, you're saying, how do
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: we get past this? How do we detox? You then
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: started spending time with those friends and family again, you know,
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: like it really is like breathing healthy air again, Like,
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: oh now I'm coming back to life. And it takes
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: some time of doing that. We're like, no one's going
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: to tell me I can't do this and I can't
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: do these things that are wonderful for me. Once you
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: start feeling like you're in control of your life again,
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: that's often times where you start you start to heal
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: because you're when you're in a relationship with the narcissists,
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: it's very time consuming because you waste a lot of
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: time interpreting texts and why didn't he call or she
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: called too soon? Well where is this person? Or what's
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: going on? And explaining and talking about things till two
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: in the morning, and then people going to bed angry,
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: and it's a lot of times like a full time
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: all being in a relationship with these people always on
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: your mind, whereas if you're in a healthy relationship, to
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: be honest with you, you don't waste a lot of
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: mental real estate on that. Like you love the person
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: and you're happy to talk to them, but you're not
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: spending your wheels thinking about them all the time in
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: this dysfunctional, ruminating kind of a way. And you hear
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: relationships are hard, and so you think like, oh, yeah,
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: this is the people are talking about. By the way,
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: I don't know. I think a shrink must have sold
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: that's so we'd get work. But relationship really aren't that
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: hard when they were. Sometimes you have to make a
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: compromise like Okay, yeah, I'm going to skip to dinner
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: tonight because my partner is sick. But that doesn't feel hard.
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: That feels like love, and you don't label that it's
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: hard when it was, Like, no, it has to feel hard,
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: and relationships should feel like mental pilates. You're doing it wrong.
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: For somebody that's in the triangle, if they're either the
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: wife or the mistress or whomever, or even the narcissist.
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: Is there any closure to it? Ever, there is no
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: closure with narcissists, and that I think is the hardest
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: thing for people to get their head around. I think
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: some people will feel like, you know what, I could
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: heal from this if this person would just finally take ownership,
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: explain to me what happened, and I can let it go.
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: It won't happen because they don't get it, They don't understand,
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: and nor do they care what they did to you
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: and you. Trying to force them to think about it
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: gets them very angry, so they'll often start insulting, criticizing, humiliating,
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: and degrading the other person. So then it's even worse.
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: The the best play, the best play, honestly, is to
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: walk away with your head held high, and honestly, then
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: you're kind of sticking it to them too, because now
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: they've lost their sulf like you're dead because I left
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: one and found another. Yeah, that's why I'm saying you
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: need that detox perience. What is a detox? Like I
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: just said, you need time a long but it's it's
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: definitely and you know what, Listen, a lot of people
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: in narcissistic relationships, they stay at the table too long.
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: They really do. So the last year or two of
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: a narcissistic relationship, this thing is already dead in the water,
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: so people crave tie. I often say, if you're in
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: a relationship with the narcissist, try and get things like
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: massages from time to time, just so you can have
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: real human touch that doesn't feel like sort of this
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: toxic kind of angry sex touch or no touch, which
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: is what does tend to happen in narcissistic relationship is
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: a frequency of sex drops down. Something's weird with so
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: they're not going to be touching. So they're touching someone else,
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: but they're not going to be like holding your hand
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: or saying. It's not very intimate. It's very performance art sex.
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: In fact, sometimes it's very athletic and it's very exciting
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: and it's very seductive, but it's very empty. And again
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: it's like, in fact, they managed to position themselves during
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: sex to highlight their best physical attributes. It's all very theatrical.
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: Is this familiar A little bit? On the hand, the
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: hand holding are more like affection a straight it is,
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: so I'm not convinced the third one was the narcissist.
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: I'm still holding out hope that I'm two. But the
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: third sex at it? Who the the third one? Yeah,
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: the one that we talked about that. I'm still not certain.
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: There's there's too much insensitivity there, So let's not call
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: him a narcissist. But if we call this person deeply insensitive?
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: Still not sold on the third one. First, she she
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: wants to have that last call, try a little bit
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: because and what is it in me? That's like, I'll
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: just let me try? Yeah, why does she want to listen?
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: I'm going to spit ball here. We don't know each
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: other super well. We've talked a bit, but you know,
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: I would really want to do the deeper dive into
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: your childhood. You know, maybe you might have grown up
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: in a very happy home, but that idea that you
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: had to somehow take care of maybe mom, maybe dad,
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: maybe everyone, and that that's your role and you're going
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: to keep doing it because that's where you got your
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: identity from that to give up that role and to
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: keep trying this until you really feel it's done. The
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: real risk for you is to stay in too long
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: so you truly feel like you tried everything, but that
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: stuff you learn young. I think on the first one,
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: well not probably not the first one, but the most
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: recent first one. That one was I knew something was
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: not right, like two months in and I three years later.
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: But by the time I left three years later, I
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: was done. But I was gonna say, like, does this
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: seem like narcissist to you? Sorry, I'm so like snotty too. No,
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: I mean seeing emotion when you're pregnant and make sure
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: even more emotional like a snott over here as well.
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: So I once said, I feel like you're not reciprocal,
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: and he was like, what do you mean? And I'm like,
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: I don't know, Like, and I gave this example and
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: I said, oh, I did this, and you didn't say
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: thank you. And the person sent me maybe twenty emails
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: that we had sent to each other where the thank
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: you was highlighted and it was so brutal. Yeah, it
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: was like it's petty. It is. And and in fact,
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: a relationship with the narcissists is like death by a
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: thousand cuts. You stay and you get cut, and you
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: get caught in one day you're like you're done, Like
• 48:02
  Speaker 1: you can't bear it. Anymore, but that petty kind of
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: counting the thank you It's like, how dare you showing
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: you a record of every gift? Look at all these
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: thank you there's a lot. They like to account all that.
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: They keep an accounting of grievances of things they've done,
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: and like good accountants, they pull out the books when
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: they need them, and you're like, you really were paying
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: attention all along, but to the wrong stuff. So because
• 48:26
  Speaker 1: I'd say, that was sort of towards where I was like, gops,
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: to get this is a lot. But what if it's
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: to narcissists one? Oh lord, everyone, I mean it's it's
• 48:38
  Speaker 1: really like you you almost want to it's fireworks. It's fireworks.
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: It's two people engaged in parallel play, and it all
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: seems to go quite well because it's also superficial. But
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: at some point somebody needs more narcissistic supply than the
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: other or so what happens that or one person's career
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: or something in life is going better, and that's when
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: all of it falls apart, which tends to happen in
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: most case when it falls apart, like example, um, when
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: it falls apart one person we live in Hollywood, like
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: one person gets the part they want and the other
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: person is sort of still languishing and doing like local theater.
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: So then what will the narcissists due to the other narcissis.
• 49:14
  Speaker 1: So then the one will start getting angry because all
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: of the person who's still in local theater will get
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: angry at the person who got the big part because
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: they're insecure and they're going getting ahead is making them
• 49:24
  Speaker 1: feel more insecure, and so they'll keep you know, pushing
• 49:27
  Speaker 1: at them. They'll try to tear them down, and they'll
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: keep criticizing them. Well, narcissist isn't gonna put up with that,
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: So they're going to say, well, the reason you do
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: community theaters because you're a loser and you have no talent.
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: And then they'll just get each other down and tell
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: neither of you listen. I'm glad when the narcissists find
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: each other because it gets them out of our water supply.
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: The tragedy the tragedies when they have kids, that devastates,
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: devastating because there's really no one really on it with
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: the kids, right, these are kids who do go on.
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: There's a lot of risks for these kids then as adults,
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: so that I'm not okay with, but they want to
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: they want to get together find just tryed to avoid
• 50:03
  Speaker 1: having kids. It's or hire the best care on the
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: planet for those kids, or have the best grandma possible.
• 50:10
  Speaker 1: But most of the time that grandma was a narcissistic.
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: Exactly exactly. That's exactly right. Yeah, so it's rough. No, No,
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: I've seen it happen over and over again again, especially
• 50:19
  Speaker 1: in Hollywood, and clients that that aren't the narcissists that
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: are dealing with a narcissists feel crazy. Oh, that's exactly
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: what brought them in. They say, I am losing my mind,
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: I've lost all grip on reality. I've tried this, I've
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: done this. Why isn't it working out? And it must
• 50:33
  Speaker 1: be my fault because nothing's working for whatever reason. They
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: don't think it's the other person, you know, it's you know,
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: it's almost like it's like jousting at windmills, right, you're
• 50:41
  Speaker 1: never going to get it right. But they all the time,
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: you feel like they're going crazy, confusing because other people
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: like the narcissists so much. That's exactly. Sometimes I'm like,
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: what like people always like he's the best, greatest guy
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: and it's like you don't know. And all narcissists, for
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: the most part, are successful, not at all. There's a
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: subgroup of what we call covert or more vulnerable narcissists.
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: Things don't go well for them and they blame the world.
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: You know, I would have been a great success if
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: you know, I was bigger than Steve Jobs, I was
• 51:11
  Speaker 1: smarter than Albert Einstein. You know, I had Bill Gates
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: idea before he ever had it. And now they're still
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: living in their mother's basement, so clearly that didn't work
• 51:18
  Speaker 1: out for them. Insecurity is more um close, like you
• 51:23
  Speaker 1: feel and hear their insecurities. Also, I'm not that smart, yeah,
• 51:28
  Speaker 1: because that's a narcissist. Yeah, And it's sort of like
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: where you go, what are you talking about? And then
• 51:34
  Speaker 1: you see but it's as you can tell them how
• 51:36
  Speaker 1: great they are, yeah, like you know, I'm never gonna
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: make it this business? Are you kidding me? Here? The
• 51:40
  Speaker 1: most talented whatever phil it in doctor like me so much.
• 51:45
  Speaker 1: But it's so nice that you do. And then the
• 51:47
  Speaker 1: next day they'll be like, and no one's ever going
• 51:49
  Speaker 1: to love you the way I do. If anyone ever
• 51:51
  Speaker 1: says to you, no one's ever gonna love you like
• 51:53
  Speaker 1: I do. Change your number and move it, and won't.
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: They often say leave, You're not going to do better
• 51:57
  Speaker 1: than major leave, Leave, leave, They but dangle from it.
• 52:02
  Speaker 1: That's different because that feels so antagonistic. But some people
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: really fall hard for somebody saying no one is ever
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: going to love you the way I do, instead of
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: seeing that as the toxic, scary, manipulative thing. That is,
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: people think think like whoa, i' mean this a great
• 52:15
  Speaker 1: love story. That's that's where it gets named. And the
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: second that you do leave, are you threatened to leave?
• 52:19
  Speaker 1: That's when they love bombing comes from. And they just
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: turn it on and then you forget it. So they're
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: not nice again. They're super nice, overly nice, and it
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: outweighs all these horrible bad times that you guys just
• 52:31
  Speaker 1: had for this one good good Very confusing. It's very confusing,
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: that's the bottom line. It's a very confusing. There's somebody
• 52:38
  Speaker 1: who once wrote a book called um too good to leave,
• 52:42
  Speaker 1: Too bad to stay, and that was perfectly put. Because
• 52:45
  Speaker 1: you have people say there are enough good days, enough
• 52:47
  Speaker 1: good hours to keep me in it, to which I say,
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: you almost have to view the good days as like
• 52:52
  Speaker 1: the harvest season, like put all that good stuff away
• 52:55
  Speaker 1: because there's rough days coming ahead, and then just white
• 52:58
  Speaker 1: knuckle it and then get that's a it's a heck
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: of a way too. I can't do it. It's tough,
• 53:03
  Speaker 1: it's yeah, and sorry, just I'm probably running out of time.
• 53:07
  Speaker 1: But he'll we're okay, We're okay, okay, good, I'm mechanic um.
• 53:12
  Speaker 1: In regards to I know you just said the difference
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: between a narcissist and a psychopath, but what's the difference
• 53:21
  Speaker 1: between a narcissist and a sociopath? So psychopath and socio
• 53:25
  Speaker 1: sociopath is sort of a term that's not as well.
• 53:27
  Speaker 1: I mean, people use it, but it's actually in the
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: scientific literature. It's a hazier term psychopath that's got a
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: lot more meat behind it. A sociopath is considered to
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: be like a psychopath in some ways. Their nervous system
• 53:39
  Speaker 1: is different, so like when they do when we do
• 53:41
  Speaker 1: bad things, we feel uncomfortable, you know, like if we
• 53:43
  Speaker 1: I don't know, we cut someone off in a certain way.
• 53:46
  Speaker 1: If we were to actually try to break a rule,
• 53:47
  Speaker 1: our hearts starts being a little faster. That doesn't happen
• 53:50
  Speaker 1: for a psychopath, and as a result, they tolerate stress
• 53:52
  Speaker 1: really well. So that's why they often do make like
• 53:55
  Speaker 1: great soldiers are great surgeons even because stress doesn't bother them.
• 53:58
  Speaker 1: Sociopaths aren't like that. They also don't feel remorse. They
• 54:02
  Speaker 1: can also be quite dangerous. They can also quite be
• 54:04
  Speaker 1: violent because they tend to be more hotheaded than psychopaths.
• 54:07
  Speaker 1: Violent like going on a killing spree, or violent like
• 54:10
  Speaker 1: domestic abuse. All of the above yeah so um. And
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: it's believed that in some ways the psychopath might be
• 54:15
  Speaker 1: more of a pure biological variant of this person who
• 54:18
  Speaker 1: can do bad things and not worry about it. A
• 54:20
  Speaker 1: sociopath might be more like that as a byproduct of
• 54:23
  Speaker 1: their upbringing, like they grew up with significant neglect or
• 54:26
  Speaker 1: significant abuse. Again, the research is still kind of evolving
• 54:30
  Speaker 1: on that. I prefer sticking to psychopath and narcissist. I
• 54:32
  Speaker 1: think spectrum to where like I'm picking the on a
• 54:36
  Speaker 1: one to ten, the five, and the five you can
• 54:40
  Speaker 1: stick a little longer because they're not so bad, which
• 54:44
  Speaker 1: is why I'm always like, are they are they? When
• 54:47
  Speaker 1: you say are they are they? They probably are about
• 54:49
  Speaker 1: a three or four or five when they were at eight,
• 54:51
  Speaker 1: nine or ten. You're just calling nine one one like
• 54:54
  Speaker 1: you're like, I need to get out of here. But
• 54:55
  Speaker 1: they are on a spectrum, and there's different kinds too.
• 54:58
  Speaker 1: There's what I call those more vulnar able narcissists that
• 55:01
  Speaker 1: don't look so grandiose. They actually are the ones who
• 55:03
  Speaker 1: tend to be more like victims. Woe is me, nobody
• 55:06
  Speaker 1: gets me. You know, we talked about these so called
• 55:09
  Speaker 1: in cells. That's more of the vulnerable narsis. In cells
• 55:12
  Speaker 1: are these guys who are involuntarily celibate and they get
• 55:15
  Speaker 1: mad and they kill people. I mean, it's really it's
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: it's like the Joker was probably a vulnerable narcissist. And
• 55:22
  Speaker 1: that's an example of that. I didn't pick any of those.
• 55:27
  Speaker 1: Uh sorry about that. Um is this considered like a diagnosed,
• 55:35
  Speaker 1: diagnosed psychological disorder. So this is where a lot of
• 55:38
  Speaker 1: people say, well, how dare you be sitting there diagnosing people?
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: Were not diagnosing people narcissist. To call someone narcissistic, it's
• 55:44
  Speaker 1: an adjective, like calling someone stubborn or agreeable or clingy.
• 55:49
  Speaker 1: It's a it's a descriptive term. When we call it
• 55:52
  Speaker 1: narcissistic personality disorder, then it's a diagnosis. But actually the
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: prevalence of narcissistic personality disorder is only somewhere between two
• 56:00
  Speaker 1: and five. And the reason it's so low is that
• 56:03
  Speaker 1: for something to be called a mental illness, it has
• 56:06
  Speaker 1: to cause a person significant impairment in their lives or
• 56:10
  Speaker 1: they need to be distressed about it. Well, a lot
• 56:12
  Speaker 1: of narcissists are actually pretty cool with their lives. They
• 56:15
  Speaker 1: got lives, they got girlfriends, they got money, like, and
• 56:19
  Speaker 1: they don't recognize the insecurity in themselves. It's not like
• 56:22
  Speaker 1: they're walking around saying I'm really insecure. That's why I'm
• 56:24
  Speaker 1: a jerk. I think if they were listening to this,
• 56:26
  Speaker 1: they wouldn't even know we're talking about They would not,
• 56:28
  Speaker 1: they absolutely would not, And I think that's what's so maddening,
• 56:31
  Speaker 1: because like, for example, if you're in a relationship with
• 56:33
  Speaker 1: somebody with depression, they'd know it about themselves and say,
• 56:36
  Speaker 1: I know I'm depressed, and I know at times that
• 56:38
  Speaker 1: makes it hard for you to talk to me. And
• 56:40
  Speaker 1: I know that means at times I don't want to
• 56:41
  Speaker 1: go out and I apologize. So there's something rather self
• 56:44
  Speaker 1: aware at that for a person struggling with many other
• 56:47
  Speaker 1: mental illnesses. This is a very little, unique space, which
• 56:52
  Speaker 1: is why I got into research in this area because
• 56:53
  Speaker 1: it was such an odd space and mental health. And
• 56:56
  Speaker 1: I'm also looking through like kind of some of the
• 56:58
  Speaker 1: most asked questions I'm getting, and one that is just
• 57:01
  Speaker 1: blowing up my phone is I have to co parent
• 57:03
  Speaker 1: with a narcissist. Good please give me the best advice.
• 57:07
  Speaker 1: Number one, I want this poor person to not even
• 57:10
  Speaker 1: use the word co parent because you're basically a single
• 57:12
  Speaker 1: parent with an elephant on your back, you know, because
• 57:15
  Speaker 1: the co parenting implies cooperation and collaboration. I tell people
• 57:19
  Speaker 1: who co parent with a narcissist, make sure you document everything,
• 57:24
  Speaker 1: make sure that you are you Often co parents with
• 57:27
  Speaker 1: narcissists will sometimes spend a lot of their custody time
• 57:30
  Speaker 1: sort of undoing what happened when the child was with
• 57:32
  Speaker 1: the narcissistic parent. You have to be willing to talk
• 57:36
  Speaker 1: to your kids about emotions a lot, because their narcissistic
• 57:39
  Speaker 1: parent may not do that. You have to. You just
• 57:42
  Speaker 1: have to give your kid time to kind of come
• 57:44
  Speaker 1: back into your household because that can be hard. Your
• 57:47
  Speaker 1: narcissistic co parent or other parent is often going to
• 57:50
  Speaker 1: be trying to go to war with you. I always say,
• 57:53
  Speaker 1: if a narcissist knows you want something, they're not going
• 57:55
  Speaker 1: to want to give it to you. So you've got
• 57:57
  Speaker 1: to play it cool when it comes to custody. A
• 58:00
  Speaker 1: lot of parents I wish I could have a d
• 58:01
  Speaker 1: percent custody, and I said, you know you're narcissistic. Other
• 58:04
  Speaker 1: parents may not be as interested in custody as you think.
• 58:06
  Speaker 1: Kids are kind of a headache, right They demand time
• 58:09
  Speaker 1: and attention. I said, if you play it cool and
• 58:12
  Speaker 1: they don't feel like they're getting a win over you,
• 58:14
  Speaker 1: you might actually get more and you'll making money based
• 58:17
  Speaker 1: and all of that. So, but you really have to
• 58:19
  Speaker 1: have patience. You need to be in your own therapy,
• 58:21
  Speaker 1: You need to be in support groups. Do not many
• 58:24
  Speaker 1: times these divorces don't work with mediators. You do need
• 58:26
  Speaker 1: attorneys because it starts getting very messy and mediation may
• 58:30
  Speaker 1: not cut it. In some cases it might, but in
• 58:32
  Speaker 1: many cases it won't. And you need to be and
• 58:35
  Speaker 1: you need to know that you're gonna have to keep
• 58:36
  Speaker 1: revisiting this over and over again. This is not a
• 58:38
  Speaker 1: one off. This is something that is going to torment
• 58:40
  Speaker 1: you until your kids are old enough to make their
• 58:42
  Speaker 1: own custody decisions or move out of the house, and
• 58:45
  Speaker 1: it will take a toll on your kids. There's you
• 58:47
  Speaker 1: do not get to do this without this taking a
• 58:49
  Speaker 1: toll on your kids. And then, in that same token,
• 58:51
  Speaker 1: if you see somebody in your life that is with
• 58:55
  Speaker 1: a narcissist, that's another question. How do you tell your friend,
• 58:58
  Speaker 1: your sister, your whatever, like, how do you help them? Don't?
• 59:01
  Speaker 1: First of all, don't tell them directly, because if you
• 59:03
  Speaker 1: tell them directly, they're going to defend the narcissists and say,
• 59:05
  Speaker 1: how dare you diagnose my boyfriend? The best thing you
• 59:09
  Speaker 1: can do is take note of patterns and tell them
• 59:12
  Speaker 1: you feel uncomfortable. Say you know what, Jill, I hope
• 59:15
  Speaker 1: you're doing okay? You know I was. I just had
• 59:17
  Speaker 1: a moment at dinner. He said something to you, and
• 59:20
  Speaker 1: I don't know, it felt a little disrespectful. Are you okay?
• 59:23
  Speaker 1: At that point, I'm not saying he's a jerk, I'm
• 59:26
  Speaker 1: checking in with Jill. My goal in that was to
• 59:29
  Speaker 1: plant a seat of doubt for Jill, like, something isn't
• 59:32
  Speaker 1: quite right, because in that moment, Jill is already probably
• 59:35
  Speaker 1: taking it on as something she's done, or Jill's like
• 59:38
  Speaker 1: somebody just noticed, And that's the key that somebody notes,
• 59:42
  Speaker 1: not calling him out, but reflecting on her, because you're
• 59:45
  Speaker 1: noticing all these things that you're ignoring them, but then
• 59:47
  Speaker 1: once somebody else points it out to you, then it's
• 59:50
  Speaker 1: like an additional right. But but making it about her
• 59:53
  Speaker 1: in citizening that he's a jerk, No, he's not. I
• 59:55
  Speaker 1: noticed that he was talking to Are you okay? Makes sense?
• 59:59
  Speaker 1: Nobody gonna break up with someone else because you tell
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 1: them to. That just doesn't work. And also, you know,
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 1: because there's so many things out there that say, like
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 1: narcissism isn't treatable and no luck if somebody is a
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 1: narcissist and they are in a marriage or they're in
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 1: a situation where they want to get better. I know
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 1: you said that they couldn't start being more aware of
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 1: what they're saying when they're saying things to people, But like,
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 1: what where is their hope if they really want to
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 1: get this right, and they're willing to go into their
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 1: own therapy, and they're willing to go into couples therapy
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 1: and they're willing to do the daily hard work. You
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 1: might be able to get a little bit, a little
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 1: bit of movement and maybe enough movement to keep it
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 1: all together, maybe to get the kids out of the house.
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 1: Will narcissists actually go to therapy? Oh yeah, I'm gonna
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 1: told you. I see them all the time, but like
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 1: they're they're fine when they're wife And sometimes I call
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 1: them out. I mean, I had one guy walking and
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 1: before his but hit the chair. He's like, Hi, nice
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 1: to meet you. The NARCISSI is, what can you do
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 1: for me? I'm like, not much, but let's see what
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 1: we get to. It's almost like someone brings in an
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 1: old car and I'm like, it's probably just this is
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 1: this one. We might sell this phone four parts, but
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 1: you can't sell that. Questions. Yeah, one is if I
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 1: or anyone listening was in like a strong, confident place,
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 1: can you interact with the narcissists better? Absolutely? And can
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 1: they not break you? Because I have to say, is
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 1: somebody who does this? And it this is a long
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 1: journey for me too, And I went through my own
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 1: therapy with the Master. You know, is that really you do?
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 1: Because what ends up happening is and I'm sure more
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 1: than a few people have called me arrogant because once
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 1: I sense there's a narcissist in the room, people also
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 1: must think I have irritable bowel syndromes. I'm always thying,
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 1: I have to go to the restroom, which is my
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 1: waft getting out of the room. I've I've left dinner
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 1: parties mid course. I won't. I won't stay in the
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 1: presence of it. I mean, and I think that that's
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 1: what you've got to remember. We all have the ability
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 1: to step out of a situation where there's a narcissist present.
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 1: Now I have three questions, so many questions. Now if
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 1: you my question is like I feel like in certain
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 1: situations that reciprocal thing was so not There is there
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 1: edner any healing that could happen just for me standing
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 1: up for myself. Like I know you all said, don't
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 1: talk to him, don't talk to him, but it's like, well,
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 1: I get anything from being like, Hey, you asked me
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 1: to do this, and I did it, and this is
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 1: what I need from you. No, but you're not going
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 1: to get it. So if you're good with asking for
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 1: it and not getting it, then do it. Well, could
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 1: that be that proof that I'm looking for, and then
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 1: if they did do it, then I would be like, oh, okay,
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 1: if you're being honest with yourself that all you're doing
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 1: is looking for proof, you know that really that I'm
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 1: you know, I can't tell you how many people out
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 1: there clients've worked with and said, yeah, I'm not looking
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 1: at his phone, because as long as I don't look
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 1: at his phone, I can pretend he's not having an affair.
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 1: You know, they can stay in that relationship and in
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 1: that delusion because they said, once I see it and
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 1: I stay, then that makes me a real fool. And
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 1: so you're thinking like, okay, like this is like a
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 1: Santa Claus thing, Like yeah, I mean sorry to your
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 1: listeners who believe in it, but like, yeah, sorry, the
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 1: jig's up game. So um, yeah, I read this article
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 1: about the fear of knowing verse versus the need to know.
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 1: So it's the same thing here that you know, if
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 1: you're really you have to figure out for yourself is
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 1: what am I trying to do here? Am I really
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 1: trying to get that last piece of information? And once
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 1: I have that, then I'm going to go. My concern
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 1: is that then there's going to be one more thing
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 1: you need to know. Then there's gonna be one more
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 1: thing you need to know, and then before you know,
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 1: you've blinked your eyes in two more years have gone
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 1: by and you've not been in a healthy place when
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 1: you deserve so much better. Unsure on the answer on
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 1: that one, I don't know yet. When it's happened in
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 1: the past, does that last call? So I think for me,
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 1: when I moved on from from one years ago, it
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 1: was because I finally was like, I know, and then
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 1: the move on was actually pretty easy, but it had
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 1: been years of torture. So I think I have that
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 1: a little bit in me. But you bring up an
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 1: issue again. I write about it in this in a
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 1: section of this book that my most recent book called
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 1: the line. Everyone has the line that gets crossed. For you,
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 1: it was within five years for you, it will be
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 1: within a certain number of years I've been in relationships,
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 1: or was a certain number of years, and so that
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 1: line is very personal. Okay, for some people, it's knowing
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 1: a partner cheated. For someone, it may be knowing that
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 1: you know, I don't know that they broke the law.
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 1: You know. For someone else, it would be that they
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 1: cursed at them. I mean, the line varies depending on
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 1: the person, but once that line gets crossed, that's where
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 1: I see clients and people get mobilized to say I'm out.
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 1: It could very well be that they spoke harshly to
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 1: a child, like the first time they called a child
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 1: that's like, okay, I'm not doing this. And I'm a
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 1: friend who finally got divorced because it went from her
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 1: to the child exactly. So when she left that that line,
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 1: and I think that's what the question is. You're asking,
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 1: is what is your line? And that's personal. And for me,
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 1: I've always been very I never judge if a person
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 1: says I'm going to wait another ten years. And in fact,
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 1: probably the most beautiful book part of this book is
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 1: a woman gave me a letter. She stayed in a
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 1: narcissistic marriage ten years longer than she should have. I
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 1: have a podcast and somebody had called in who was
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 1: just in the beginning of such a marriage. This other
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 1: listener sent this letter in to read to this woman.
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 1: It was like, what happens to you when you say
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 1: another ten years? It's brutal. It's brutal. You find this
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 1: letter by buying my book and going to I think
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 1: it's like three five or something. Well, and yeah, everybody's
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 1: line is different because I have friends who whose line
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 1: they would be out minute one and I'm like, oh,
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna go back about so don't drudge your line though,
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 1: that's my point. Everybody's everyone buying different. And then what
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 1: happens is, though that line, your tolerance drops. Like next
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 1: time for you, Jual, it's going to be you're going
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 1: to get there a lot quicker. You're going to be
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 1: much better at advocating for yourself because you're saying, Okay,
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 1: now I know how this works. It's almost like taking
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 1: a class, like you know, I know how to multiply,
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 1: like I got you multiplication, like I got you narcissism.
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 1: Which then, I mean, can we kind of dig into
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 1: sex addiction. Why we're here? I mean, because I'm hearing
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 1: so much close. They're very close. In fact, they're highly
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 1: highly correlated. In fact, i'd say the bulk of sex
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 1: addicts are probably narcissists and they're giving it a nicer name.
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 1: And aren't therapists divided? Yes, yeah, sex addiction is a thing. Yeah, there,
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 1: we're very divided. I am more of a this is
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 1: sort of a disregulated narcissist. Because here's the thing. We
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 1: don't call someone a sex addict if they're not in
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 1: a monogamous relationship. So many times some some do. Like
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 1: a person, let's say every night they're going to a
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 1: different sex worker, or they watch porn twelve fourteen hours
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 1: a day to the point where it's disrupting their life
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 1: where they might be getting illnesses or you know, whatever
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 1: it is. Whatever it may be, and they're in a relationship,
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 1: we tend to sometimes be less likely to diagnose and
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 1: less of persons like, yeah, I'm not going to work,
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 1: so I watching porn all day. If the person is
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 1: in a relationship, obviously it's causing much more disruption this
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 1: kind of behavior because of um, because there's another person involved.
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 1: When it involves they're in a relationship like a marriage
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 1: or whatever, fiance or something, and they do this, then
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 1: there's no empathy for that person. But some people will
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 1: argue they're so disregulated it's like using drugs. They can't
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 1: stop themselves. I've worked with more and more clients who
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 1: are dealing with that disregulated sex, and I can see
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 1: them not stop themselves. But like there's no emotional connection
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 1: to the sex on this and none whatsoever. Like they're
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 1: in there out like it's they're like, I'm not even
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 1: feeling it, but even when they're seeing the aftermath truly
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 1: affect their partner. So substitute drugs for sex then okay,
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 1: So it's almost this is an addiction, So you're going
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 1: to have to deal with It's a disregulated an addiction
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 1: of disregulated behavior. They can't stop themselves. People who spend
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 1: a lot, people who eat a lot, like these things
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 1: do kind of cluster in the same space. And you know,
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 1: I think that what is harder is that sex happens
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 1: in an interpersonal space. It's different than eating a cheesecake
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 1: or spending ten dollars at a shop or something. Could
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 1: somebody be in a marriage that might not be a
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 1: bad marriage, it's it might even be a good marriage,
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 1: but they do have an emotional connection with someone else,
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 1: and the sex with that person is emotional. You know,
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 1: it's a tricky space because I mean, there's people out
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 1: there in the polyamory community who would argue that's very possible.
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 1: I have to say that here's here's the rule of thumb.
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 1: If that if the spouse in that marriage found out
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 1: and would be broken by it. Then I don't think
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 1: that other relationship could ship could be healthy because you're
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 1: engaging in something outside of your marriage that could devastate
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 1: another human being. I always say to people, if you're cheating,
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 1: if your partner is going to sign off on this
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 1: and everyone's cool, which I've worked with plenty of couples
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 1: where that's the case, that's then that's fine. So what
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 1: does it say? So A lot of what I've heard
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 1: when it comes to sex addiction and whatnot is that
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 1: there's one partner that's that's doing it and then the
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 1: other partner is not, and it's obviously devastated. But if
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 1: it were to reverse that other partner would leave them.
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 1: That's exactly right. So what does that? That's where it
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 1: brings me to. That's a narcissist listening. Addiction of all
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 1: forms and narcissism often hang out together in a significant
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 1: chunk of cases, and what you'll sometimes see it's heartbreaking
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 1: for families. Oh my god, this person is such a jerk,
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 1: and it's because they're using drugs. And when we get
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 1: them into rehab and they come out, everything's gonna be fine.
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 1: They come out of rehab. Now they're sober and they're
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 1: a jerk, which means the narcissism remained that the the
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 1: drug or alcohol addiction is gone. Would be the same
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 1: with any kind of an addictive state. Narcissistic people, because
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 1: they're so empty, they need to regulate from the outside
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 1: and they can't manage their feelings on their own, so
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 1: they spend, They eat, they drink, they drug, they have sex,
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 1: They do all these external behaviors to manage the emptiness
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 1: and all the feelings they have because they don't know
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 1: how to name them, they don't know how to talk
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 1: with them about them, and they don't know how to
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 1: be with them, which is why they have big appetites,
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 1: and that's why they spend so much money. And it's
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 1: like always regulating, regulating, regulating, And that's like a coal
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 1: of damage that I filled the whole. That's what you did.
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 1: You filled the whole until something else will fill the whole.
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 1: Like you're just you're on a conveyor belt of whole
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 1: filling things. But it did feel emotional at the time,
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 1: But talk to an addict, that's what they're filling. To
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 1: talk to someone who does a ton of coke or
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 1: smokes weed all the time. They're filling a hole and
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 1: I felt like a crack addictive. That's right, And so
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 1: that's what I'm saying. That's where we use the term codependency.
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 1: So you feel like you need it, you have to
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 1: have it. But in the same way, like you know,
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 1: a narcissist isn't going to have empathy. If a sex
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 1: addict is caught cheating by his wife, will he feel empathy?
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 1: It depends. If they're narcissistic, probably not. If it's a
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 1: person who's struggling with sex addiction, they may actually be
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 1: really remorseful. But how can you tell? How can you know?
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 1: I think part of it is commitment to treatment. It's
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 1: um coming clean about it. It's taking ownership clean prior
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 1: to getting caught, coming clean prior getting caught. Exactly, yes, exactly,
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 1: that's really what it is. And then what because we
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 1: know the red flags for a narcissists, what are the
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 1: red flags if you're getting into a relationship with somebody
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 1: who has a sex addiction. I think that you know,
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 1: first of all, there could be things like you know,
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 1: if you come into knowledge of somehow see that there
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 1: they are engaging in a lot of porn news. If
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 1: they are um their sexual wants, needs, asks or something
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 1: that they're not communicating clearly, you feel uncomfortable to you.
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 1: They start talking about their sexual history and it's something like, okay,
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 1: it's more elaborated than you thought, and it's okay to
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 1: be uncomfortable with that and ask more questions about it.
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 1: It's often something hard to suss out in the beginning,
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 1: have to be honest with you. A lot of people
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 1: will say they were blindsided by this because so personal
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 1: porn can be watched. It's not like the old days, right,
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 1: the VHS days, like you're onto it. Nowadays you can
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 1: park in you know, parking a lot and watch your
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 1: porn before you go into the office. Nobody is the wiser.
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 1: So people will walk in on people, they'll see, you know,
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 1: they'll see the you know, the cash and a computer.
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 1: Whatever they see that it might come out in that way.
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 1: But if somebody, for example, who goes on business trips
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 1: a lot and see sex workers on those business trips
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 1: and has like people they know who to pay in
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 1: those cities or something like that, that's hard to that's
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 1: hard to track because they often like they have no
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 1: relationship with that person other than having sex with them
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 1: when they go to that city. I mean, I've I've
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 1: heard so many variants of this. Somebody wants to hide this.
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 1: They'll hide this just like any addict can hide it.
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 1: And a sex attict is not going to sex to
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 1: get validation, it's to regulate. It's filling a different kind
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 1: of need and sometimes those two overlap. I have so
• 1:12:39
  Speaker 1: many more questions time. Yeah, well, thank you so much.
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 1: I feel like people honestly right and ask us more questions.
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 1: We can do this again because I want to get
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 1: all your questions answered. I mean, I still have more questions,
• 1:12:56
  Speaker 1: So thank you so much. My absolute pleasu with thank
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 1: you again. Thank you for being so open and honest too,
• 1:13:02
  Speaker 1: because I think that helps people who are listening to
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 1: realize how painful that this is. And they're not foolish.
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 1: They did something very pure and honest. They fell in love.
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 1: That's not that. Never blame yourself for that. Very true. Well,
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 1: I know I personally am going to be reading your
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 1: fault books, but take your life back? And should I
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 1: stay or should I go? Oh? My goodness, is the
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 1: new book? Don't you know who I am? How to stay?
• 1:13:29
  Speaker 1: Sane in an era of narcissism, entitlement, and shoot, now
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 1: you're just tell me about that incivilitylity? Does that mean
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 1: I don't have that. It's the world today, it's the
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 1: world I can read ish. Thank you, Thank you so
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 1: much for having me. Thank you, thanks for listening. Subscribe
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 1: to radio or wherever you listen to podcasts. Okay, I'm
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 1: going to come back and