Latest / Arrivals: A Birth Story Podcast / A successful VBAC, an Aussie birth perspective, obstructed labor, and episiotomy complications
Transcript
- Merelise Wilson: kick us off and maybe we can also just quickly talk about how we like know each other and then we can get into it. Okay. Amazing. welcome to the podcast. your host, Marilee Swelson. ⁓ And today I'm so excited to have Claire Hambridge joining me. Hello. ⁓ I'm so happy. Thank you making the time change work. You are all the way in gold coast, Australia. Clare: Hi, thank you for having me on I am, I know it. We've done a few little time zone changes and exchanges in the last six weeks, haven't we? Merelise Wilson: Yes, yes, I know. feel like we should tell everyone how we know each other because it's kind of a crazy story and podcasts connected us, right? Clare: No, motherhood podcasts exactly. then own. So yeah, I love that. Merelise Wilson: Yes! I know me too. Yeah. So we have this mutual podcast that we both love and listen to the mother days and we did like a little women's circle where they connected the podcast host connected a group of us and we just finished six weeks of meeting every Saturday and it was so beautiful and just wonderful. Clare: It has been, yeah, there's like what, 30 girls in the group and it has just been so spiritually healing, ⁓ woo woo, like just supportive, the crazy connections between these people who I've never met, like, and you know, beautiful connections like now, me getting to, you know, be on your podcast too. Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. I know, it's so cool, it's been so special and I'm so excited that we're gonna continue to chat today. Clare: Yes. Yeah, what do you want to know? Merelise Wilson: I know. So I guess you have two kiddos, four and a half and two and a half. And I guess let's start with your first child, with your son. What was your pregnancy journey like I'd love also if you can include, just sprinkled throughout our conversation, just tell us also a little bit about the Australian healthcare system and how that looks for women and moms. Clare: Yeah, of course. So yeah, I do appreciate that the American system is a little bit different to Shaya. I think I'm a registered nurse and my background is emergency. So done that for 14 plus years and teaching. I live on the Gold Coast with my partner, Greg, and my kids, George and Emma. I probably need to preface that. Greg and I hadn't actually been together very long when I felt pregnant. ⁓ both ⁓ been married before and met in our separation phase. So we always joke that George wasn't made out of wedlock. We just weren't married to each other. ⁓ So ⁓ divorces did get finalized before his birth. It did put a little kicker up our butts for that. ⁓ we ⁓ get the nine months. Merelise Wilson: I love it. I love it. Clare: It was a bit of a happy surprise. I was kind of wigging out. Like I had never had a pregnancy test that was positive in my life. I'd never been on contraception and always wanted kids. was part of the reason why my marriage separation happened is that my ex weren't in the same, we thought we were. We weren't in the same phase of life. And I remember telling Greg, and this is like, Merelise Wilson: Had you wanted kids? you think you wanted to be a mom? Yeah. Clare: probably gonna explain my whole approach to birth and pregnancy because I have a trauma response from my knowledge. Like having all that extra medical knowledge is really not a blessing. Like you, it's not. And I said to him, I'm pregnant. And he just had this big smile on his face. And I was just like, ⁓ okay. And he was like, ⁓ my God, like so happy, so excited. And I was like, well. I'm really early and one in four pregnancies end in miscarriage. So, you know, just like, don't get too excited and flying out for a holiday like that next day. And so I was like, and we'll just, we'll just see what happens. And he was just like, can you stop wrecking this? And I think that just goes to show that the amount of women I have looked after through miscarriage, bleeding and pregnancy, pregnancy loss, like my forefront was lots of pregnancies and in miscarriage. Like that was where my brain immediately went. Merelise Wilson: Right. Clare: And even though we fell pregnant very easily and my pregnancy was very straightforward, that anxiety carried, I carried that through. I think a year of COVID being a first line, frontline worker, like I've never done a day of like working from home in my life. I was every day, I still at work in the fever, in the masks, in the hazmat suits, looking after everybody. And then I got pregnant. Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Clare: And I'm going, okay, like what risks does this have to my baby? And, know, I'm still here every day, swabbing people and looking after them. So I think that anxiety just became heightened because it wasn't, it was no longer like, I'm out here doing my civil duty. was like, well, I have a baby inside of me. Like, I don't want anything to happen to me. So my priorities totally changed. Absolutely. And Merelise Wilson: Right. Yeah. Right? your priorities change. Clare: I guess you don't expect that, or you don't know until you're in it that it's going to feel like that. I had the typical like sickness until 16 weeks, felt really rubbish, night shifts made it worse, that kind of thing. And my pregnancy was good, my ultrasounds were good. He was growing, I didn't know the gender for either of my babies. So if I'm saying he, was it at that time. ⁓ Merelise Wilson: I love it. Team not finding out the gender. It was the same way. Clare: Yeah, was definitely a good motivator in labor, I find. Merelise Wilson: Yes, I felt the same way. I know it was like, okay, there's one last big surprise to find out at the end of this. Like I can do it. Clare: Yeah, and it's funny, we, Greg and I couldn't agree on and we agreed on boys names. We had a boy name, but we didn't have a girl name. And then when I had, when I was in labor with Emma, we had a girl, we two girl names, but no boys name because we'd already used it. hopefully, we're the provided in that regard. ⁓ So, yeah, had ⁓ a really good sonography clinic that I was going to on the coast and ⁓ Merelise Wilson: We were the exact same. That's so funny. Clare: I did not have private obstetric care. So in Australia, there's public or private and ⁓ the public care is completely free. I work in the public system. Also the medical brain of me was like, there's a NICU in the public system. There's always on-call doctors. There's always an anesthetist. Like everyone's here all the time. The teaching hospital, like ⁓ local hospital where I work is a fantastic hospital. So I was very happy going public. ⁓ But I was fortunate enough to get into a program that's called MGP, which is midwifery group practice. It's gold standard of obstetric care, basically, or midwifery care, I should say. You are allocated a midwife and she is your midwife that you see every appointment. And she is at and she'll, they'll have an off-sider so that if she got called in for another woman, Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. amazing. Clare: you know, know, the off-sider as well. So I had met her off-sider. You then, all your education and midwifery appointments is outside of the hospital setting. So you go to like a community health center in your code base. So it's close to you. they would run ⁓ throughout my pregnancy. went on like a safe sleep. went like a breastfeeding education there. And so was meeting other women in the same stages of pregnancy. And in postpartum, ⁓ you could go to meetups as well. So it was kind of like a built-in mother's group, ⁓ which is really great for that lack of village. However, as someone that worked in a extremely large emergency department with like 300 other nurses, I had about eight friends that were all pregnant at the same time. I kind of had my own built-in women's group. So I was fortunate to have had Merelise Wilson: That's amazing. Mmph. That's nice. Clare: many friends before me had babies and many friends at the same time having a baby. So you don't, I don't think you realize how much of a blessing having other people, other friends around you having babies at the same age can be. And just in those deep darks, like 2 a.m. it's having someone else to message and understand that you're in the same stage and phase is yeah, you just don't, I don't think you appreciate it until you're in it. Merelise Wilson: I could not agree more. recently had a friend who kind of, joked she was like off cycle. Like she just didn't, there's a big group of us who are very close and we all happen to have babies staggered like around the same times, but she just had her first off cycle. And I felt that for her that she, know, obviously we're all here for her, but it's not the same as having someone who's literally had a baby right around the same time as you, like you said, is up breastfeeding same time as you, you know, in the thick of it. It's just so nice to have. someone who is right there with you doing all the same things. So I agree. Clare: And I think I preface that with social media makes that distance like invisible basically, because you're not actually getting out every day and seeing those people. So I had a girlfriend in Singapore that had twins the same time as me. And I had another friend in Norway that had baby the same time as me. And I would message them like just as much as I was messaging the girls that live five kilometres to me. And that's, I think that is the beautiful, beautiful thing about social media. Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Yeah. Clare: And so you know, your community doesn't necessarily have to be distance based. ⁓ Merelise Wilson: So true. Taking a quick step back, you said you got into the care. ⁓ the process like to ⁓ into the private group? Clare: They basically say, as soon as you see a positive on a stick, you need to apply because it's obviously really popular. It is the best care model that you can be in. You apply through the hospital and you basically preface on, think now actually, once you've seen your GP, you've had a confirmed HCT test when the GPs submit your paperwork to the hospital, there's like a circle or like a tick box that says you'd like to be in midwifery group practice. And then you kind of Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Okay. Clare: ballot. However, as a staff member and friends that have midwife friends, like you tend to get a little bit of like, hey, my friend is this and that and look, we should like you should get some benefits for doing the amount of hours we do at that hospital. But I actually got into it quite late because I had a scan at 20 weeks and it said I had placenta circumpale, which Merelise Wilson: Yes, yes, 100 % agree, 100 % agree. Mm-hmm. Clare: is in short, basically that the placenta, the size of placenta instead of growing out start to fall in on themselves. ⁓ It can mean like, you know, of course I went home and did Dr. Google and it was like, NICU births, low birth weights, early delivery, like in growth restriction. And I just, it hadn't been the narrative of my head. Every baby in my family had been big. Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Clare: everyone else had had to have seizures because of these big babies. And so I was actually trying to overcome the thought of like having a big baby. And then someone's someone said, ⁓ your baby could be small. And I was just like, nah, like they're just not gonna be. I don't think so even even with that diagnosis. So it delayed my acceptance until I'd had a few more scans to show that he he Merelise Wilson: The opposite, Yeah. You're like, no, I don't think so. Clare: didn't have any growth restriction and that it wasn't impacting my progress. And so they accepted me. Merelise Wilson: Okay. Are there any other risks associated with it? Like, just growth? Clare: It's I guess, abruption could potentially be a risk, but I can't remember it being like in the statistics of it. I'm always a little bit heightened about ⁓ abruption, had my career. You know, so you're kind of always aware of that, which is where I chose to do hypnobirthing. There's an Australian hypnobirthing course, which is fantastic. It's a franchise, lots of different practitioners exist. ⁓ And I her name is Melissa Stripswood. She's the one that started it. Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Yeah. Hmm. Clare: And I did it to do, like I said, Greg and I hadn't been together for very long. So I kind of felt like him and I needed to do some like connecting before birth. he's medical, but not not birth worker. So we did that. And I'm so glad we did because it really normalized birth. It gave me that like empowerment to like have a natural birth. ⁓ wasn't afraid of labor anymore. Merelise Wilson: you Clare: gave me all those tools to use like water and the ball and the, my partner's a physio so he was like, cool, teach me the moves. And I was like, yeah, he would do like the hip swing and the shake the apple tree and you know, spinning baby stuff and the pressure points and the acupressure and the combs in the hands and hands machines and what you should eat. And they did show birth videos in that and that was probably the biggest thing. Merelise Wilson: That's awesome. Yeah. Clare: that I'm benefit, like I was grateful for because I remember Greg sitting there next to me and he was like, ⁓ my God. And I'm like, what? He goes, that baby's dead. And I was like, what? He's like, that baby is blue. Why are they showing us a dead baby? And I was like, all babies are blue when they're born. So then I became obsessed with One Born Every Minute. Do you know that show? ⁓ it's short version and there's an Australian version. And so it's called One Born Every Minute and it's basically birth, right? It's just been in hospital. And so you follow lots of people, like maybe four people on an episode and you have their whole story and da da da. And it's really quite cute. So then I became obsessed with making him watch One Born Every Minute. Every night, he'd be like, Merelise Wilson: I don't actually, one porn every minute. Okay. Yeah. Sign me up. I love it. Clare: again, like another birth, I was like, yes, like so obsessed. I also became, so I said off the, like off recording, like knowledge is power. And like, I think, I don't want to preface and say anyone that's had birth trauma is because they weren't knowledgeable, but I think a great way to limit birth trauma is being as knowledgeable as you can prior to birth. that Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Clare: every situation that arises, you're not hearing stuff for the first time because you're in like a crime or headspace. Like you're not in the space to learn. Merelise Wilson: I could not agree more. No. No. Clare: So I did jump on like a lot of learning. did the Hypno birthing. There's a podcast in Australia, which is like one of the biggest podcasts ever. It's called Australian Birth Stories. ⁓ Sophie has, I think nearly 700 episodes now, all birth stories. I was like obsessively listening to birth stories. And I think like what your podcast is, like listening to other women's experience is learning. Merelise Wilson: Wow. Yeah, exactly. ⁓ thank you. I know, I feel like a lot of times when people think they need to educate themselves or hear that someone say you need to educate yourselves about birth, they assume it's like reading a big textbook or watching a video in a hospital, a provider. And I think really my goal is to almost kind of Clare: which is why I love what you're doing. Merelise Wilson: like sneakily educate people through this podcast, because you can learn so much just through listening to birth stories. You'd be shocked, you know? ⁓ So yes, I'm so glad that that resonates with you. Clare: I 100 % agree and I think if we went back to our Aboriginal culture here in Australia or if you went back to any sort of native culture, their storytelling is how they passed down knowledge. And you would not find a woman in Africa who was scared of birth. Because she was known. She's seen every cousin aunt, mum, sister deliver. She knows what's up. ⁓ Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Exactly. Right. Yes, yes, she knows what to expect. I always say, I think a healthy amount of fear or I don't know if fear is right word, but I think a healthy amount of respect for birth is appropriate Clare: And I think also that goes hand in hand with that is like, I wanted to deliver in a hospital, but I minimal interventions if I could do it. But I was never closed off to the idea of having any of them. So I always called it a birth preference and not a plan because a plan can go wrong. Whereas preference is just changing pivot. Like it's just pivoting. Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Right. Same. Yeah. Yeah. Clare: I just didn't pick that preference or I changed to a different preference. And it doesn't sound like you're not setting yourself up for failure. Merelise Wilson: Yes, I totally agree. That's so funny, Claire. We, I mean, a little inside scoop for the listeners. So we kind of identified that we have a lot in common as we were going through this women's circle. And it's so funny, two things you've said are things that I say all the time, which is knowledge is power. And I prefer like the term birth preference over birth plan. So we just continue to be aligned. Clare: we're aligned. My preference if I was going to say was like a natural un-medicated birth. I was open to gas, I was open to sterile water injections, I was open to like whatever I needed. I wanted to try water, I want to try all of the birth rooms at the hospital have a pool so I wanted to try either the shower or the water and I had it, I'd hired an Elie Tens which is a Obstetric tens machine ⁓ which are so freaking amazing. Like it's like my I tell everyone to just hire one ⁓ Merelise Wilson: I don't know why they're not used more often in the US. I need to find out why. Yes, numb. Clare: Really? No. they are amazing because and I'll get into that. George, I guess we can fast forward to 41 weeks with him. And I think it's really funny. Like I was, I knew guest dates are guest dates. was kind of, everyone else in my family was a slow cooker. So I was like very prepared to go over my like estimated due date. Merelise Wilson: Yeah, yeah. Clare: which I think was the first of September and he was born on the seventh. So yeah, that makes sense. But it's funny, like that 41 week, I was like, oh, come on. Doing all the things like the curb walking, the spicy food, I tried the evening primrose, couldn't do that. I was doing the dates, I was walking so much, like I was walking like 5K a day. Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Yes. Yeah. Okay. Clare: Like I was on Matlium and it was kind of COVID. So everyone was in that walking phase of like, was all you're allowed to do. So I was just like walking, listening to birth stories, just like, and Harry Potter, just like, we live in like a really hilly street too. So I swear to God, my neighbors were like, there's that insane really pregnant lady. And I'm like big pregnant. Like anyone saying, that baby's going to be small was just deluded because it's huge. I put it on. Merelise Wilson: Yeah. ⁓ my God, I love it. ⁓ yeah. ⁓ yeah. Clare: Are you, I'm going to say kilos. So you're to have to bear with me with the, like from zero to 20 weeks. I was sick at the start, so I'd lost four kilos. So at 20 weeks, I was back to my pre birth weight. So I was, um, I put on no weight essentially. In from week 20 to week 40, I put on a kilo a week. So I was 20 kilos heavier at my birth. I like embraced it. I was like, eat all foods, do all like what, like I said, I was walking a lot. Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Yeah. Clare: Um, I did a thing called the miles circuit. Have you heard of that? Yup. was like 11 30 at night. And I was like, I'm doing this, put it on YouTube. I did this miles circuit. I'd been watching all the oxytocin movies. I've been watching friends. like. Proposal like funny stuff. I was like, fine. I'm going to bed. It was like 11 30 at night. And I literally like woke up probably 15 minutes later to like a loud pop. And I was like, Merelise Wilson: Yeah, yeah, ⁓ Hmm. Clare: What was that? And I was like, ⁓ my God. And I stood up and we had just re-carpeted, typical listing, just re-carpeted our bedroom. And so I was like, ⁓ my God. And I jumped up and this just felt this gush of water. I've like quick, it's like Greg had been asleep for hours. I like got up and like jumping across the carpet, trying not to get like, over it, went to the toilet and I'm like looking at this fluid. Cause you know, the like check the fluid color. And it was just like pinky clear. And I'm like, ⁓ my God, like my water's so broken. Merelise Wilson: You Right. Clare: So I was like, well, and I'm like, Greg! And he came in and my water's so broken. He's like, ⁓ okay. And then like, what do we do again? And he's like, I don't know. Do we call midwife? I was like, okay. My midwife was asleep. We called the off-sider and she was like, cool. You got any contractions? I was like, no. And she's like, cool, go to bed. But of course I was so excited that. Merelise Wilson: You She's like, all right, hang out. Yeah. No, I mean, you can't go back to sleep after that. Clare: I could not go to bed. so I'm like, also I to preface for me. I was not prepared for the amount of fluid. I think I'd bought two packets of like maternity pads for my like hospital bag. I went through them in four hours, like looking through them. So I ended up having the birth ball on a towel in my lounge room on another towel. And I was just like hip swaying and doing my figure eights and just like basically trying to make labor start and was having very mild cramping. Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Yes. Mm-hmm. Hmm. Clare: I got to like 7am in the morning and I was like, I have not rested. My midwife was coming, Maddie was her name, she was coming on call at 7am, so I called her and was like, hey, this is what's happened. My water's broken midnight. Like, what should we do? And she's like, look, you're on a clock, kind of, but like, you're fine. We don't routinely do GBS ⁓ as well in Queensland, in the States, so I don't know if I was positive for that, but it was not screened. ⁓ I was on the clock from a... Merelise Wilson: I was gonna ask, yeah. Clare: Your water's you know, pee prong, premature rupture of membranes. Um, she's like, do all the things, go for a walk, do the food, like have a rest. Of course, no resting, walking, doing that, making myself exhausted. come in at midday, so that had been 12 hours and we'll do a CTG. So we did that and she's like, oh, you're having contractions. Cocky idiot. I was like, I can't even feel them. Merelise Wilson: Right. Hahaha ⁓ Clare: She's like, yeah, are you having contractions? was like, is it sore? I was like, no, I can't even feel it. It's going to be so good. I'm so good at this. I was married to this, I'm born to birth. She's like, all right, go home. Call me later. Went home, still really nothing escalating. It was probably 5 PM. And I went, oh, yeah, okay. Now it's starting to escalate. And I was like, all right, Greg, get that TENS machine. Like, I want that. So then he fixed me. Merelise Wilson: So easy, easy peasy. That was made for this. Hahaha ⁓ Mm-hmm. Clare: he pulls it out and he's reading the instructions and I'm like you were meant to know how to do this now. I need it now. I had that on and I will preface like his labor, George's labor was like all in my back. It never felt like it was dilating my cervix. I didn't have cervix pain. I had cramping like period camping but it wasn't like that deep cervix pain. Merelise Wilson: You had one job, Greg. Mm. Mm. Yeah. Was he sunny side up? Yeah. Clare: It was, he was posterior and I'd done so much stuff to get him out of posterior, like, and even whilst laboring at home, was like inversions and doing all this stuff. And he was just like, yeah, he was very posterior and it was very typical of that, back labor. And it was very intense in my back. And I maxed out the tens machine in like two hours. the tens machine that I had is great because you could do your timing. Merelise Wilson: Hmm. Yeah. Clare: So it would do like an intermediate buzz and then you push a boost button when you're having a contraction and it goes up to whatever you've set it to. You push it when your contractions finish and it turns off. So it's timing them. So you don't need an app. It's just, it's all there. I max that out and I was like, no, I'm getting in the shower with the ball and Greg was winging out that I was going to fall. was like, I'm going to fall like plus our shower is so small. Like where am going to go? And, and then I started vomiting. I'm a vomitor. Um, Merelise Wilson: Yeah. ⁓ Hahaha Mmm. Clare: And Greg's like on the phone again to Maddie. It's like 8 p.m. by this point. And she's like, was listening to me. Because midwives can often tell how far along you are when they're... And so she's like, look, I think, I don't think you're that far, but depends how you're feeling. I was like, I just want to stop vomiting. Like I just can't stand this vomiting. And I said, the shower's not working anymore. Like I was feeling a bit like what's kind of going on. It's really sore, but doesn't, didn't feel right. And she's like, okay, well... Merelise Wilson: They know by noises, yes. Mm-hmm. Clare: I can meet you in there. So we think we got in at 10. That drive to the hospital, the worst. It's like minutes. Merelise Wilson: How long was it? Okay, might have been, it might as well have been five hours. Clare: ⁓ I was like, what are you doing? What, how are you driving? Greg was just, I was like, I was a zombie though. Like I wasn't even really talking. I remember my head being like, are you hitting every speed bump? Like, what are you doing? Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Were you using any of the hip move bar thing at that point? Clare: Yeah, so we'd had the, I'd made Greg read the script to me and he said he a dick doing it, but it really helped. He also, I think for nearly 30 hours, every single contraction had to say, relax your face. And go, relax your face. be okay. then he'd be like, relax your face. I'd be like, and he said he felt like such a dick, but if he didn't say it, I was tapping him and he'd be like. Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I did not relax my face. Yeah. Clare: relax your face. Two minutes, relax your face, then every minute relax your face. ⁓ we got to the hospital and I remember because I know the shift times of like the start being like cool. It's like night shift had just started so I'm not going to see anyone like this is good. Like biggest fear was running into someone I know like have like in labor. Yeah. Merelise Wilson: Hmm. Yeah. So you were giving birth at the hospital where you work? ⁓ wow. Clare: I walked across this link bridge and was just like pausing every minute to like have a contraction. But they really slowed down in the car, which they say that like change of environment. ⁓ got there, put me in a birthing suite, connected me up to the CTG, did like a, you know, check of heart rate and everything. And ⁓ was fine and I was okay. And my wife, I'd originally said I didn't want checks. So she, ⁓ Merelise Wilson: scenery. Clare: did what I asked and was like, do you want to check? And I was like, yes, straight away. Tell me. And she's like, do you want me to tell you or do you want me to just know? And I was like, no, I want to know. And she's like, two centimeters. was like, what? I'm like, What do want to do? Do you want to get in the pool? Do you want some gas? And I was like, I want to get in the pool. Got in the pool. Really had that back pain. was like, it's all. Merelise Wilson: Yeah, I need to know. Mmm. Mm-hmm. Aww. Clare: back, it's all in my like butt and you know I'd like transition you feel like you want to do this poo and so I was like hours I was in that pool and I had the gas in the pool and I feel sorry for whoever was in that birth room because I had the same three hypno birthing songs on repeat. I couldn't even hear it like I just said put it on and then that was it and they had to listen to them for hours, hours I think we got to like I was like pruning up. Merelise Wilson: Mm. Yeah. Clare: And I was still leaking fluid. said, do you run out? She's like, no, your body's like creating it. So they gave me, they put a cannula in, she's like, look, you're probably a bit dehydrated in fairness. They'd been, my waters had been broken for over 12 hours. So she's like, we need to do an antibiotics And I was like, that's fine. And in my birth preferences, I'd said that I wanted my cannula in my forearm, for pushing. So if I was on hands and knees or if I had to have my Merelise Wilson: Right? Yeah, what happens? ⁓ Mm-hmm. Yeah. Clare: It was bent, it wasn't in the way. ⁓ Yes, that's what reminded me. It was in my preference. And so I had that, I had some anybody, had some fluids. ⁓ I was still in the pool. They were like, I think I'd been in the pool for maybe eight hours. They're like, I think you need to. Merelise Wilson: I talk about that in my first birth story. And are they monitoring heart rate? Like what's the deal? What's the protocol there? Clare: Yeah, so there now, so with Emma's birth, had the wireless CTG morning, but when I was with George, she would just come into a Doppler underwater. So she would just come, yeah, just intermittent. She was just basically like, you tell me if you need me. She did a bit of counter pressure on my back, a bit of hip pressure, bit of hip squeezing. I think we reached the 24 hour mark ⁓ ⁓ was like so tired. She's like, why don't we hop out? We'll have a check. Merelise Wilson: Mm. That's great. Yeah. So it was just intermittent. Clare: and she's like, you're at five ⁓ your cervix is swollen. And she's like, have you, and I'm like, I don't know. ⁓ think I need to put a catheter in because like, I'm worried now that your cervix is like, and she could feel his fishes on his head. And she's like, I want to put a heart rate monitor on him because he'd started to have some DSLs. And I was very open to that. had it anterior ⁓ placenta. Merelise Wilson: Hmm. Mm. Clare: with him. So the Doppler's always worried me. I was worried that they were finding my cord and my heart rate, not his. So I was very open to him having the clip. So he had the clip and I said, I want to, I want to know if you're all now. And they were like, okay, that's fine. ⁓ But I was like, Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Yeah. So you see the clip, is that like what we call internal monitoring? Yeah. Yeah. Clare: Yeah, internal monitoring. Like they go and put a little corkscrew wire and she was feeling and she's like, his head is like, she's like, I think I'm at his like forehead instead of, you know, the back. so we tried to a little bit of maneuvering and then she said, all right, you can have an epidural. Like, what do you want to do? You want to go on the gas? Do you want to stay out of the pool? I was like, no, I want to get back in the pool. Merelise Wilson: Mmm. Mmm. Clare: So I got back in the pool and was just again, like I was so silent. thought like I would make a noise through my contractions, but like I didn't speak to Greg. He was like, what do you want? I was like ice chips, you know, the anethetist bless him came in. Um, and I was quite fearful of an epidural. My background being that I had meningococcal when I was 24. Um, I had like Merelise Wilson: Yeah. ⁓ wow. Clare: eight lumbar puncture attempts, failed attempts, and I had some scar tissue on my spinal column. And so I was a bit like, so this dude, can't even, like I'd never met him, which was great, but like, I, he sat down next to me. He's like, Hey, and I'm like, yeah, he's like, I'm just going to talk through like the risks of an epidural and blah, blah, blah. And I was like, yeah, it's fine. He kind of talked through it and he's like, are you happy for me to proceed? And I was like, are you good? And he was like, Merelise Wilson: It's a very valid fear. Clare: Yeah, I'm good. And I was like, all right. I was like, I'm not getting out of the pool until you are completely sterile. Like I want the time frame between that needle going into my spine and me sitting on the side of that bed to be very minimal. He's like, that's fine. he was great. He set up all his stuff. Greg and my midwife helped me get out of the pool. I sitting on the side, had the gas and Merelise Wilson: You're like... Yeah. Yeah. Clare: Greg's six four, he's very tall. And so they'd got him to like hold my shoulders so he could see over my back. And I was strapped and they're doing the sterile and then I felt Greg falling. And I was like, sorry, I had a student midwife who was also fantastic as well. And I can touch back on that in sec. I felt him falling. And I said, do not grab him to my student midwife. Cause I just like. I was like, your career hasn't even started. You cannot be like rupturing your shoulder ACL or something like whatever, shoulder joint grabbing my husband who's about to faint. And he collapsed and I'm hunched over and it's like he's collapsed onto the ground, hit his head on the sideboard of the table, had a tonic seizure. Merelise Wilson: ⁓ my God. Clare: I'm there going straight into ED mode. Like he hasn't eaten, just lift his feet up. There's like lolly snakes over there in that bag and like, yep, just lift his feet. Don't, yeah, he'll be all right. You know, I'm doing all of this like triaging and like looking and there's an ether just like, can you shut up? I have a needle in your back. And I was like, sorry. Sorry. Yeah. Okay. Merelise Wilson: ⁓ my god. It really took your mind off it. Greg kind of did you a solid there, you Clare: that. ⁓ Got my epidural, it very effective in the sense that I could still had a lot of posterior pain. They opted and opted to the point where like I still had back pain, but was so densely couldn't ⁓ George was also having like decels in my So his heart rate was dropping and so they were rolling me. So I thought I'm going to get an epidural. I'm going to have a sleep. I'm going to have some rest. Merelise Wilson: Mm. Mm. Mm. Clare: No, Greg had a great rest. put him in the corner. He was fine. They gave him some food. He went and had a sleep for three hours. And I was like, said to my student midwife, can you just go check his pupils? Like just have a little look. He was fine. And it's only the second time he's ever fainted in his life. He felt really bad. But anyway. Merelise Wilson: I was gonna say, how's Greg? Yeah. Was it, did he say, was it like seeing the needle go into your back? Is that what did it? Yeah. Yeah. Clare: It was very long. And so he was like, it was seeing the needle going into someone he loves. Merelise Wilson: I get that. Clare: like he's been in surgeries and stuff before for like, ⁓ know, frequently doesn't know. he's like, that's fine. when it was you plus ⁓ eaten, we'd been laboring for a long time. ⁓ cascade of events right there. ⁓ then didn't get any rest in that phase because I was then every two seconds, someone was coming in and like ⁓ the CTG monitor and rolling me from side to side. And I could not do it myself. Like I could not lift my leg. ⁓ they would like. Merelise Wilson: Right. It's an overwhelming situation. Mm. Yeah. Clare: roll me and put the peanut ball in between my legs and then, okay, we're going to try this side. I'm going to try that side. So I was pretty exhausted they wanted to do a, um, a venous gas of to check how baby was going. So basically they can do like a, a blood test from their scalp and they tested it in a machine and it'll tell them their oxygen. It'll tell them their lactate. and to tell you a few other things about, and it gives you a stress response of, bubba. And I was like, I understand gases. Like we do them all the time in PD. And so I was like, okay, fine. Like you can do that. So I had a doctor, it was really quite funny. She was Asian obstetrician coming in to do the gas. And she came in and she's like, I'm gonna do the gas. Like it's just a small little blah, blah. And I'm like, yes, that's fine. And she went in to do it. And it was the funniest thing because Greg and I are sitting there. and I'm Greg is blonde and I'm very fair. And she goes, ⁓ are we expecting a blonde baby? And like, we kind of just looked at each other and we're like, probably like, and I was like, it was so bizarre because I didn't realize that most babies are born with dark hair and it will change bond or fall out and George white blonde, but at birth on the day of his birth, know, so I Merelise Wilson: What? What do you see? Right? Wow. Clare: not very common. But also I was like staring at me and Greg going, probably? Like, it's the funniest comment to be like, we're having a blonde baby, but we don't know if it's a boy or a girl. Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Right? I wouldn't even think about that. It's like, you know that much, but that's it. Clare: That's it. And because you think when you're pregnant, you're like, what's your little face going to be like? What are you going to be going to like? I was like, want that's all we know. his gas was fine. So basically they're like, look, we're happy to let you labor until morning shift, basically. So that would be six a.m. The morning obstetrician came in. Like basically, the reason behind that was them saying, there's no point in us taking you for a Caesar with a tired night crew. Merelise Wilson: Right, totally. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Clare: when Bain and you are okay. If anything was to change, that obviously would have escalated. I had a beautiful, ⁓ whole team was female, except for that first and eighth. Another obstetrician came in in the morning ⁓ ⁓ said, hey, you know, introduce yourself. ⁓ Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Yeah. Clare: She said, after Greg, my student midwife and my midwife were there. They'd been with me all night. They all had to sleep, by the way, when I had the epidural. I didn't ⁓ ⁓ said, let me do a check. And I said, sure. And she goes, you're four, you're four centimeters. Like you're going backwards. You've got blood in your urine, which just goes to. So basically George was posterior, but he also had what they call, it can call stargazing. And it's when they're coming out face first. So it was the. Merelise Wilson: ⁓ ⁓ my god. ⁓ Yes. Clare: runt of his forehead was what was presenting, which is obviously the biggest part of your head. ⁓ And his head was pushing on my cervix in the wrong spot. So my cervix swelled basically instead of dying. So they call it an obstructed labor failure to progress. They don't use that terminology so much anymore. ⁓ She said, look, I'll put you first on the list. I'm happy to take you for a Caesar. I said, okay, can I have a little bit to think about it? She's like, yep. Merelise Wilson: Right. Mm. Mm. Yeah. Clare: I'll come in half an hour. And so Greg and I had a chat. My girlfriend Courtney, who then was my midwife for Emma, actually was on shift in the labor delivery ward that morning and knew my, saw my name. So Courtney was actually in that room when that discussion was had and she stayed in the room with me and I had a cry and I was like, I really wanted to do this and I'm so tired and Merelise Wilson: Wow. Mm-hmm. Clare: You know, Greg had a cry and I said, it okay if I do this? And she was like, absolutely. It's okay. ⁓ sorry. They say it gets put down as an emergency Caesar just because it wasn't planned, but it was very ⁓ slow controlled situation. So then I went, all right, pivot. What did we have on my Caesar preferences? I was like, I want skin to skin. I don't want him to be swapping. I want delayed cord camping. I want my monitoring on my back. Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Clare: So you my cardiac monitoring on my back so that my chest was clear. I had a blanket that was mine that I wanted to come in that had my smells. So if he was taken away from me that he had my blanket and my smells. And I would just, I just pivoted. I'd be done like I knew what we're going to do if that was where the situation went to. So that's where I feel like I was very empowered to do that. Merelise Wilson: That's amazing. Yeah. Clare: then the obstetrician came back and I said, yeah, I'm happy to do that. And then I listed everything that I wanted to do. And she was like, and I was like, and we don't know the gender. So don't, don't, no one say the gender. Like I want one of us to announce it. That's fine. We opted out of a clear drape because Greg fainted. now we don't need to do that. And they're like, I want to cut the cord. We're like, no. Merelise Wilson: Yeah, yeah. Right. Not a good idea. I don't think so. Clare: before that we had had that on there and so we didn't. ⁓ sorry. Merelise Wilson: Yeah. I was going to say, I think that's, that's so amazing because I think a lot of people assume that once you have a C-section, all preferences or, you know, um, personal touches are out the window and that's so not the case. So that's amazing that you were prepared. And again, this is why it's like a preference. I always say like, you know, if A happens and I want B, if B happens, I want C, you know, and it goes on and on. And so you obviously got to. Clare: Really? Merelise Wilson: a lower preference on your list, but then you were still able to personalize it and make it more of what you wanted. And I think that's so beautiful and so smart that you're prepared for that. Clare: It was amazing. I knew the morning team were fresh. They'd all just come to work. I probably could have asked for music, but like, I just didn't care. By that point, I was so tired. I think we were like, we're at 34 hours since my board has a broken and we, cause I'd had an epidural, they'll just top it up in a seasonal, get any extras, you know, whatever spinal. I was so dense anyway, but Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Ugh. God. Mm-hmm. Right. Clare: And you'll probably hear this from lots of Caesar mamas that like, cause I know what's happening, every noise I could associate with what was going on, even though I couldn't see, but I could see the lights. So the lights were reflecting my abdomen. So I could walk if I wanted, but I was like, Ooh, I don't know if I want to watch that. So I just turned. really? it's quite common. ⁓ Be If you don't want to see, turn your head. ⁓ and I was like, ⁓ I could see them putting the bedding in on my tummy. Merelise Wilson: Mmm. I've never heard anyone say that. Yeah. ⁓ my god. Clare: And was weird because I'm like, I don't feel that. That's so strange. And like they pinch you with like the forceps. Hey, can you feel anything before they start cutting you? And I was like, no. ⁓ And I just remember turning my head to Greg and I was like, just talk to me. Like just distract me basically. And it was very quick. And I just heard the obstetrician go, wow, he is so stuck in there. And I was like, it's validating. Merelise Wilson: Mmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I was gonna say. Clare: hard to get him out and his little head was all like coned and squished and he cried like straight away straight away and like did not stop making noise from then basically they helped him up and dropped the drape so that we could see and I was like it's a boy it's George and Greg was crying and I like turned to him and I'm like do we still like George and he's like yeah I'm like Merelise Wilson: Hmm. Mm. hehe Clare: Okay. Maddie, my midwife took him, cut his cord, just did a really quick like wait, put a beanie on him. And she's like, I just going to put an appy on him because he hasn't passed meconium and I don't want him to shit all over you basically. So he was there except for a beanie and nappy. She brought him around, put him on my chest. Although it's very awkward when you're that flat and you have these Merelise Wilson: Fair. Hmm. Yeah. Uh-huh. Clare: big pregnancy boobs and they put this back on you and it's they're almost in your neck. And I was like, I can't even see him like I was just like kisses on the head and just being like, Hello, baby boy. I was talking to him. And I just said, Greg, and I had one arm, I think because the other arm had the line in and so I was like, great, like he's gonna fall like, can you hold him? So Greg had was stabilizing him on my my chest. Merelise Wilson: You're like, right. Yeah. Yeah. No. Clare: And then I, a lot of people have said, it took ages for them to close them up. Like it was a blur. they, felt like the next second I was in recovery. Merelise Wilson: And did you get to keep George on you the whole time while they were sewing you up? ⁓ that's amazing. Clare: never take like they did a quick weight quick like cut the cord put a thing on him and you know they're like he is chunky and I was like okay like how heavy is and we calculated this he's four kilos and so that's like 8.9 so nearly nine pound but he was only 50 centimeters so he was really like just chunk and he was just a ball of chunk and I'd ask them wipe his vernix off which is that white stuff Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Right. A little ball. Mm. Yeah. Clare: because it doesn't happen in a natural labor, but it often happens in a scenario because they are trying to make them warm. And so please don't rub his vernix off if you can. Like obviously if you need stimulation and things like that, it's different. But he was crying, he was pink, he was good. Like they put him on me, was covered in vernix. I went to Merelise Wilson: Right. Mm-hmm. especially for a 41 weeker. That's surprising too. Usually, you know, they've lost some of that, Clare: Yeah, yeah. And my midwife was then like, I'm gonna love you and leave you like I've been here for hours. And I had a morning midwife in recovery. And he did that like, let's put him on the boom. And I was like, Whoa, okay. And he fed beautifully. And I always call that a false. Like, because often you hear mom saying that first feed was so easy. But then it got hard. And so for him, it didn't get hard. It was just like, a of a false sense of security when you're like, Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Mm-hmm. awesome. Clare: you're in this oxytocin bubble and I was on this high and he just like latched and he was eating and I'm like, this is amazing. I love him so much. And went back to the ward. That was all good. It was like morning. I was like delusionally tired. Baby. And, you know, I think we then hadn't told anyone I was in labor. ⁓ No, I didn't want people messaging Greg and being like, Merelise Wilson: ⁓ my god. ⁓ really? checking in. Clare: And like we were there 36 hours, right? So I'm like, people would have been worried if they knew. Merelise Wilson: Right. Well, was anyone like in your life like, hey, I haven't heard from you for 36 hours. What's going on? Clare: No, I think they knew I was kind of in a little bit of a nest, like a little bit of a like, I to Greg, call my mom. And so he called, he video called her and she was at work and she like a few streets away. And she literally like just was like, I'm leaving like at work. She's the boss. I didn't run her too much, but like, just got up and like laughed. So my mom came and like, my Merelise Wilson: Yeah, you'd been kind of... ⁓ No. ⁓ Clare: came later in the afternoon and Greg's parents came to meet him and I was just like, I want everyone to meet him and I love him so much. And yeah, that was so amazing. The kicker being that I found out my mom had terminal cancer that day. And that I add that because I think it was, I was already, I even suspected something was up in the final weeks of my pregnancy. And she was protecting me by not telling me anything. But I remember crying one night at like 38 weeks pregnant to Greg and I was like, something's up with mom. And he was like, she's. fine. Like what? You're just anxious. it's okay. You're just emotional ball of pregnancy. I was like, no, something's up. And it's on me that I asked her at that point. But I said, like I said to her, what's going on with that? I knew she'd had a biopsy of a something in her tummy. I said, what's going on with this, this biopsy? And she just started crying and she was already crying because she had baby with her. And she said to me like, it's cancer. Merelise Wilson: Bye. Mm. Right. Clare: And I said, okay, what is it? And I said, she's like, I got breast cancer. I was like, but that's, so I said, it's metastasized. You've got mets in your abdomen. And she's like, no, I have two. It's mesothelioma and breast cancer. And that was big. And so anyone receiving that kind of information is heavy. So I was obviously like, People ask me like, did you get the baby blues on day three? And I don't have that of me getting that because I had this like ⁓ love for George, also having this overwhelming anticipatory grief for mum. So I remember asking to speak to like a social worker whilst I was in hospital, you stay for three days after a Caesar typically in public system in Australia. Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Clare: So had three days in hospital, which was great as a first time mom. You know, have a new midwife coming to help you feed and latch and they're looking at your wounds and you just have a bit more support, which was awesome. And I remember trying to reach out to those services quite early on and said like, I want to speak to social worker. And she was so unprepared for me to tell her like, cause midwife was seeing me crying and then Greg would have to be like, ⁓ no, it's not like they were like, ⁓ she's got. Merelise Wilson: Yeah. I'm Mmm. Clare: like she's, you know, really upset. And then Greg would kind of have to step in and be like, no, we just found out her mom's dying of cancer. And they were like, ⁓ and everyone else is in shock with you. And we made the decision not to tell anyone that mom had that diagnosis for six weeks. So we didn't tell my brother, my dad didn't know, no one knew except for us, which was heavy. Merelise Wilson: we have. Mm. ⁓ my goodness, that's a lot for you to carry on top of becoming a mom. Clare: Yeah, I told a few girlfriends, ⁓ but I also didn't want to taint George's birth with that. And so I wanted people just to meet him and be like, ⁓ he's so amazing and so gorgeous. And so I was kind of happy to, you know, well, let's just wait. Like mom's had started treatment a month earlier and she was looking good and looking great and like all of that. So was like, you wouldn't know and looking at her that anything's wrong. The Caesar recovery was tough. Like, Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Clare: I am very opiate sensitive. I can't have codeine and endorine. So I was on tramadol and I was taking one of them every night for two weeks. Like they discharged me with two weeks, like 14 tablets. And I had regular Panadol and Neurofen, which you have different names for those drugs. So ibuprofen and acetylcysteine, is that what it Tylenol, yeah. Every... Merelise Wilson: Hmm. That's nice that they do that. Clare: like I had a sheet, all right? And I would like not miss it. And I was in my compression ⁓ garments ⁓ they were tight and I was bleeding and it a lot. Like ⁓ I knew of what was happening but I was almost like the amount of postpartum bleeding, like six weeks I had bleeding. And I felt like, well, hang on, I've had a Caesar I'm gonna like suction all of this stuff out. Like why? ⁓ Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Wow. Right. Why am I having to heal from both, you know, places? Clare: Maybe. Yeah, and I probably, I did try to lean into like rest, but I think I also was just so excited about having him that I like probably did a bit too much. ⁓ Couldn't drive for six weeks, like that was that standard here. And I'm very lucky that I had 12 months maternity leave, paid maternity leave. Merelise Wilson: Yeah. That's incredible. Clare: So my government give me, so the government in Australia give you 24 weeks. I get 14 weeks from my job, but you can take it at half. that extends you out to like 28 plus 24. And that's actually even more now. And then I had annual leave as well. So I am very blessed to be in a country that supports us in that regard. ⁓ So like, Merelise Wilson: Mm. ⁓ my god. Clare: It blows my mind to hear women in America going back to work at like six weeks. And I'm like, I couldn't even drive. Like, I'm still bleeding, you know? So that is wild when I hear that. Merelise Wilson: I know. I know. Yeah, it is. It's wild. Clare: What did you have? Merelise Wilson: had 12 weeks with both of mine and with my first, I took like two extra weeks of annual leave and I went back at 14 weeks. And then with my second, it was right around the holidays and I was with a different company at that time. Like my mat leave was wrapping up right around the holidays. And so they were like, just come back in January. So I ended up taking 16 weeks with him. So just three and a half months and then four months with both. I mean, it's nothing. Clare: And did you go back at what, like your full hours? Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I know. Clare: I think another element of my anxiety, like I couldn't leave him. Even my mom, and I had started talk therapy through my pregnancy, which she was not fit. Like I should have realized, and we say this on my own podcast, like therapy is like dating. And if you don't gel, then find someone else. ⁓ lady I seeing in my pregnancy, we didn't gel. The lady I started seeing postpartum with George was really great. ⁓ I saw her Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Totally. Mm. Clare: did talk therapy with her for six months. And I came to her and I was like, I think I was at the six months mark and I was like, I don't think I'm getting any better. Which is I said, I need medication. She was like, Oh, thank God. Yes. I was like, why didn't you say that? Like, yeah. And it was kind of, I know she kind of said, you have to come with that opinion. I think it's psychologists versus psychologists. I'm not really sure how that Merelise Wilson: Yeah Why did you wait so long? Mm. Mmm. Clare: Overnight, like it was a game changer for me starting the surgery. I canceled my next talk therapy because I was like, I feel so good. I didn't go back. Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Wow, that's amazing. Clare: It was night and day and I didn't have postpartum depression despite how high risk it would have been for me to with my mom's diagnosis. Not ever. I was sad. I wasn't depressed. I was not sad about George. I was sad about my mom, but that was relevant. Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Yeah. which is very normal, right? Clare: But I was so anxious. I had so many intrusive thoughts, which I didn't probably realize were not common. I had so many medical intrusive thoughts from my own history. Like I would count his rest. I would put a stethoscope on his chest and count his heart rate. Like the amount of times I did that kid's temperature, like it was just beyond. And the medication worked amazing for me. So I'm... Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I love Zoloft. Clare: I'm so open on like Chloe, my co-host on my podcast and we talk about mental health all the time, really that stigma. I stayed on that until four months postpartum with Emma. So Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Clare: I then made the decision to have another baby because I was like, I ain't sleeping. let's just keep. I'm, I'm very fortunate in my government job that if you fall pregnant whilst you're on maternity leave, so in that 12 months, you'll same, you get your same maternity leave. Merelise Wilson: Might as well. Let's keep the train rolling. Wow. Clare: So I kind of had that conversation with Greg where I was like, George was like 10 months old and I'm like, we kind of got three months for me to get pregnant. And if we're going to do this financially, it was better for us to do that. And I wanted two kids kind of close together. He was like, okay. And we were lucky that like the first month we tried, I was pregnant. Pose partum with a toddler is a wildly different experience. Merelise Wilson: I don't know how you mamas too under to do it, truly. Clare: Even with a four year old, even with a five year old, like that second pregnancy is nothing like your first. Merelise Wilson: No, no, absolutely. ⁓ yeah, just in general. ⁓ my gosh, yes. You can't nap. Yes, it's crazy. mean, they're so demanding, the toddlers, and your body's so exhausted, and everything happens faster with the second pregnancy, like all of the bad feelings, and ⁓ it's so hard. It's so hard. Clare: And I'm a second. And so I remember like being like my my brother had a baby book. He had like an extra album of photos. my baby book was empty. And the only thing that was filled in in my baby book was like first slept through and it just said never in capital letters. That's my mom had written in my book. Okay. And I was like Jackson, my older brother was like, he's got an extra photo album. I'm like, where's mine? And like, mom's like, you never slept. So I never did any of that. And also, Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Never stop. Yeah. Clare: And so I didn't understand that. And literally I'm like, sorry, Emma. Like there's so many more photos of George as a baby. like the nesting did not kick in the second time around. Like I was like, I'll tidy the house up when that kicks in. I felt sick the same as I did with him. Like I was like, no TV until I got pregnant. And then I was like, watch the wiggles. Like I feel horrendous. Please stay still. Merelise Wilson: Yeah. I know. Right. Yeah. Just stop moving for five minutes so I can just sit. Yes. We're in that phase. Yeah. Wait, wait, wait question. Did you have to go back to work when you were pregnant or did you just, how does that work? Clare: kill yourself for five seconds like me and he's like So I did extended mat leave. So I went on, I took a year of unpaid leave from my government job, but I had a teaching job, which was casual. So I went back to my teaching job and I was just casually. And then after my 12 months of unpaid leave ended, I started maternity leave for a month. Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Okay. Okay, ⁓ my God, that's amazing. Even though you hadn't had her, you started. ⁓ my God, that's amazing. Clare: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so it's a bit of a loophole and lots of people in that system use it. And I'm very grateful that it still exists and hasn't been ripped My pregnancy with her was much the same except I'd obviously had a caesarean and I went to the same program, so the MGP program, ⁓ I was very fortunate this time to get my friend Courtney who actually was there when I had George, but that was just by chance. Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Yes. Aww. Clare: So she was back in MGP, she was in my postcode. I messaged her and I'd like literally just peed on a stick and was like, Courtney, what are you in? Like, please, I wanna be with you. And she was like, yes, yes, I'm yours, like all yours. So excited. And I said, I wanna VBAC And she was like, yep, okay. ⁓ Which is a vag- vag- ⁓ my God. Vaginal birth after cesarean. Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Yes. And what made you want to do a VBAC over just having a scheduled C-section? Clare: It's a good question because my caesarian was great, right? Like I had a beautiful experience. It was probably the recovery where I was like, I can't do that with a toddler. I can't not drive for six weeks. Like this kid is busy. Like we do swimming twice a week. We do baby sensory. We've got play group. Like he needs all the activities if I want him to have one nap. And that one nap was in the car. So I basically was like, I need to be able to drive. Merelise Wilson: Mm. ⁓ I know. Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's fair. Clare: Um, I like, we didn't do any additional like birth courses because we'd done the hypnobirthing. So I like dusted off the hypnobirthing books and like we went back and I was so funny then re-listening to like the meditation. So was like, Ooh, it like was very Pavlovian. I was like back into the, it totally did like totally. And Greg was like, Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. to take you back into it. Clare: again. As much as he says it to like every first dad if we're like at a barbecue and like there's someone expecting he's like do the Hypno Birthing course. He's like it's it's more almost for the partners to give them tools even if you want any of them. Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Yeah, and like a role, know, that kind of gives them like a role. Yeah. Clare: Even though he was like, you didn't want me to touch you. You didn't want the light touch. You didn't want the acupressure. You were just like, fuck off kind of thing. was like, I ⁓ want ⁓ But I'm like, but if I had wanted it, you wouldn't know. ⁓ So that was, ⁓ it was great. So Courtney was great. I had a student midwife through Courtney and I had a student with George as well. I say with the MGP program, your midwife visits you at home for six weeks postpartum. Merelise Wilson: Yeah. And he's like, hmm. Yeah. ⁓ my God, amazing. Clare: So Maddie, my first midwife, was doing home visits with me for six weeks postpartum. She came every 48 hours when the first week I was home, and then it was every week. And they would do his weight and fill in his book and check my latch and check my wound. They would look at the sleep space. She brought me lasagna, two homemade lasagnas. She was just so beautiful. So I didn't have anywhere for my baby checks. I was in my home. Merelise Wilson: every week. Ugh. ⁓ my God. That's incredible. Right. Clare: every... Merelise Wilson: Was there anything that they recommended you do to prepare for a VBAC or optimize your possibility of having a VBAC? Any sort of positional, I don't know. Clare: After having a posterior labor, I was like overly obsessed with having Emma in an optimal position. And I've done a lot to get George, like I've got pictures of me like in inversions, every night, hands and knees every night. So I was like determined that his positioning was really why I hadn't progressed appropriately. I was like obsessed with Emma being in an optimal position. Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it sounds like it. Clare: I had a posterior placenta with her. So I was like, I had in my head that an anterior, like my placenta being at the front had stopped George being able to get into like a good position. I also want to normalize weighing placentas. Like we get so obsessed with birth weights and like how big was the baby? But you've grown a whole organ. So I weighed both of my placentas and like my placenta with George was ⁓ almost a kilo. Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Clare: And I encapsulated that and I had that postpartum. Like I took it orally postpartum to help with iron and ⁓ a bit of thought that it can help with postnatal depression and I never got depression. ⁓ I knew how much it weighed. So I was like, I'm like, I grew a one kilo organ, a four kilo baby. And then like each of my boobs weighs about two kilos. Like that's a lot. ⁓ Merelise Wilson: Yeah, exactly. And all the extra blood that you have in your body when you're pregnant. Yes, all the things. Yeah. Yeah. Clare: I had about 10 liters of fluid pouring out of me for like 36 weeks. So my placenta was on the back this time. So I was like, cool. That kind of gave me a little like, yep, she'll have space. I didn't know it was a girl, to like move into the right spot. And my checks were just at the community center. And half of the time, Courtney and I would just be having a social catch up, like typical second child. Like, oh, should we a heart rate? Oh yeah, let's measure your like, fundal height and all that kind of stuff. Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Yeah. Clare: absolutely fine. had to, because I was having a VBAC, I had to have an obstetric appointment. So I never even met an obstetrician in my first pregnancy, but I had to have an appointment at the hospital. Courtney Bless had like printed out all the data and evidence for like VBACs for me. So I went into those really prepared and she had said like, they're going to tell you, have to have an induction. Merelise Wilson: Yeah. That's amazing. Clare: They're going to tell you that you're at risk because you've got gestational diabetes this time and that you had a four kilo baby the first time and that's a big baby and you had an instructor at labor and you know, all this kind of stuff. Like, you know this, okay. And really for someone to have a successful VBAC 90 % of that is having a team that's there to support you. ⁓ % of it is the mom doing the work. ⁓ I used something called an epineau. Is it big in perineal massage? Is that big in the US? Merelise Wilson: ⁓ yes, yeah, I mean it's not big, but I definitely know it, yeah. Clare: So like everyone gets a form on perineal massage in Australia. So they teach you how to do it. The idea is to prevent third and fourth degree tears. I found it extremely hard to do that pregnant, like so pregnant. I was like, can't reach. So I didn't. Merelise Wilson: ⁓ wow. ⁓ that's great. Mm-hmm. Yeah, how do you even reach it? I feel like you have to have your partner do it. Clare: Yeah, which is so awkward as much as like this person because I asked Greg to do it and he was like, this is literally the worst thing you've ever made me do. So I did not do it much with George. And so I'd said to Courtney, like, obviously, I don't want to tear. haven't, my perineum has never stretched before. What can we do? And she's like, you can get this thing called an Epino And it's basically like a blood pressure cuff attached to a little balloon and you pop the balloon in and you stretch without having to reach. Okay. Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Hahaha! Hmm. Clare: So I did that with Emma as a bit of like prep. did optimal positioning with her. was like, ⁓ like she was always just on one side and weirdly, ⁓ like I was always like, she's not a big, she's not as big as him. Like I felt, she felt smaller to ⁓ Merelise Wilson: ⁓ that's cool. I haven't heard that. Like spinning babies, what did you, yeah. Yeah. Clare: obstetrician that I had at that 39 week appointment at the hospital, the junior, like the registrar, they were like, we have to book you for an induction. And I was like, no, I don't want to be booked in for an induction. Being at that whole cascade of interventions, the rules that were placed on me being a VBAC was that, let me try and remember, I had to be monitored. she had to be on CTG monitoring, which meant I could still be in the water because they now had wireless ones. Sorry. Yeah, thank you. ⁓ had wireless CTG so I could be in the water. I couldn't have an induction ⁓ at epidural. Okay. So there's a weird rule that ⁓ Merelise Wilson: The wireless. Right. Clare: They want you to have because so you're more high risk of, all right, let's back it up. The reason that people freak out about laboring on top of a scar is because of uterine rupture. Now, the big, just to get real nerdy, the biggest study which had like 2.5 million women in it. The rate of uterine rupture was 0.2%. So I think it was like 800 women out of 2.5 million had a uterine rupture. Now that 800 was total, not even V-backs. 700 or something were V-backs. So yes, there is a slightly like statistically more common association with uterine rupture with a caesarean, like with a uterus that has a scar in it. Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Right. Mm-hmm. Clare: However, on a total scale of how common that is, 2.5 million women, 700 of them. So 0.2 % of women will have a rupture. Merelise Wilson: Right, pretty small. Clare: Pretty small, but statistically exists. So people obsessive, particularly obstetricians. ⁓ That risk is obviously higher when it's closer. So the gap between births. I had actually gone over the gap of like safe ⁓ time I was due to deliver. So I knew all this stuff. when they, an induction is more high risk for a rupture because we're. Merelise Wilson: Right, because the artificial. Clare: Yeah. I should say that when I had the epidural with George, because my contractions had completely slowed out, they actually put me on the Cinto to try and like ⁓ it all up. So I'd had the Cinto with him and I was like, this is a pretty awful experience. ⁓ I knew that if I had the Cinto with Emma, I was more high risk and I was more likely to have an epidural. And then I was going to be in a position of laboring that I didn't want to be in and like my life success for VBAC was going to be lower. Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Clare: So that's why I was trying to avoid an induction. I'd gone into labor naturally once before. So I kind of was like, my body does know what to do. I know I'm a slow cooker Like I was like, my babies aren't really due until 41 weeks and they don't want you to go to 41 weeks because they don't want the baby to get bigger. Cause then that's more. Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm, makes sense. Right. Yeah. I was gonna ask what's like the standard kind of procedure there with 40 plus weeks. Clare: They wanted me to have an induction at 39.5. Merelise Wilson: With George or with Emma? Okay. Clare: with Emma, first moms, particularly in the midwifery practice, you're kind of set to do what you want. They'll obviously keep having that conversation with you, but there's not the same pressure as there was back. I had an appointment, I said, no, I'll come in for an appointment at 39 and five and you can check everything again. And I was obviously at from 36 to 40 weeks, you're seeing your midwife like every weekly anyways, like I was. Merelise Wilson: Okay, great. Mm-hmm. weekly. Yeah. Clare: my measurements done, I was measuring on track. Her heart rate was fine. At 40 weeks, was like, she is, this baby is on my cervix. I was like, I never had this sensation with George, which was always like, it felt wrong. So I was like, she's, she's like, we're good. Like her, I'd never had it. She, I went into that hospital appointment at 40 weeks, essentially, because it was a Friday and I think it was Sunday, I was going to be 40 weeks. Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Clare: And the registrar was like, we're booking you for, what did she say? Next Wednesday. We have to book you in. Like you've got to fit in with the hospital system. you can't just, said, well, what if I just went into labor naturally? You're going to let me labor. Like the fact that you're having you saying you have to book me in to fit in with the system and the staffing. was like, women don't decide when they're having these babies. ⁓ Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Clare: I think I was actually 41 weeks at this appointment. Yeah, and I had felt very, very fine until I reached the same due date as George. I got to 40 weeks and I was like, second baby, get out. I was at, yeah, I was at, sorry, this doesn't make sense. I was at a theme park on my due date with Emma, with a toddler running around like in the splash park, like. Merelise Wilson: Yeah, you're supposed to come sooner. Clare: Like nothing in my life had stopped. Like it was like, ⁓ how many weeks are you? And I was like, ⁓ well, I due yesterday. And they're like, what? Like you're insane. I was like, I have a toddler. ⁓ felt fine. ⁓ At that appointment, was like, I feel fine. ⁓ actually knew one of the obstetricians and her and said like, she's one of the consultants. Like, are you here? Cause Clare's had an appointment and we're getting like a lot of pressure here. ⁓ Merelise Wilson: ⁓ my god. Yeah. Yeah, what are you supposed to do? You just go. You keep going. Clare: She's like, yeah, I'll come in. So she's like knocked on the door. So she's the one of the bosses and has come in and her name's Anne and she was so beautiful. And the like register, I was like, ⁓ hi. Like, why are you here? ⁓ she's like, ⁓ can I have a chat? I knew these guys. She's had five babies, all natural. Like she's yeah. Amazing. She walked in and she said, Hey feeling. said, I feel fine. She goes, do you want to have an induction? I'm like, no, I want to have a VBAC Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Hmm. Nope. Clare: She's like, okay, well, tell me about your last birth. I filled her in and she was like, do you think this baby's big? I was like, no. And she's like, do you know what the most in like accurate indicator of measurement is? And I was like, no. And she's like, a mom. Cause the accuracy of birth weight on ultrasound actually becomes less and less accurate as you, the further along you get because they can't fit the whole baby on the screen anymore. they're adding. Merelise Wilson: ⁓ interesting. Right? Clare: parts together. So they're adding a leg measurement with an abdo measurement with a head measurement. So it's plus and plus and plus and plus to maybe fit this and they're so inaccurate. And I said, this baby feels smaller. And she was like, okay. I said, I want to have VBAC. I don't want to have an induction. I don't want to be booked for an induction because I know like the risks of me having to have more interventions is there. And she was like, cool, go home and have baby. And I was like, okay. She's like, you can have an appointment on Monday. So it would have been 41 and three. She's like, Merelise Wilson: Mmm. Right? Yeah. Mm-hmm. Clare: It'll be with me because she's like, I'm here Monday, but I'm going to get a phone call to say that you had a baby on a baby. And I was like, okay. It's literally woke up Monday morning and I was like, I feel different. I can't go to work. And he was like, okay. That was the first time in that whole pregnancy that I was like, I feel different. And I was in like, prodroma labor. Like I was in early labor with her. Merelise Wilson: I love that. Mmm. Clare: all Monday. I went and saw my midwife. She did a check because I was like, can I have a stretch and sweep? And I'd had that with George, which didn't do anything. And I'd had one the week before with Emma. And she was like, you're not dilated, but you're stretchy kind of thing. And I saw her and I was like, can I stretch and sweep? And she was like, look, you're stretchy. But like, you're fine. Like I'd never had a mucus bug. My waters didn't break. I was just like, okay, I'd had in my head. Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Hmm. Clare: manifesting going into labor at 2.30 at night. Going into, I think because I then knew like I'd done bedtime, bath time and I'd gotten George to sleep, that could leave and then just like come back with a baby, you know? Like I didn't want him to see me in active labor. I know some people really like love having their like little kids and family around them but I was like I didn't want that. ⁓ Merelise Wilson: Mmm. Why? Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Clare: And so was like the whole Monday, my mom had George and she's like, we'll go and have like lunch together and stuff. like Greg and I went and had some lunch and we went for a big walk and you know, I came home and I did dinner and bath and stuff with him. And 11.30 that night, I like got up and my mom was staying. I said, mom, you have to stay now. Like, I think I'm going to go into labor Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Clare: I got up at 1130 at night and I just like wandered around and around and I sat on the birth ball and I was just by myself, just like in the dark. I didn't have any music on. Actually, I think I was listening to Harry Potter audiobook. Just that's my safe place. And then at 2.30, it was exactly 2.30 and I was like what I had, what had visualized in my clock in my mind. I woke Greg up and I was like, can you put the tens machine on? Still can't remember how to do it, but he did it. Merelise Wilson: I love it. I love it. Clare: and I sat on the ball and I had the TENS machine on and it was amazing. This labor was so different. It was like that whole air balloon of like, you know, the pain going up and then pushing down and like the pressure on my cervix and in my abdomen. It was like a cramping hard feeling and like, felt right. Like I was like, this is what labor is meant to feel like. And I would have that surge and then I'd be like normal. Merelise Wilson: Mmm. Mmm. ⁓ huh. Mmm. Clare: like lucid and then I'd be like, whoa. And I'd put my tens on for that, whatever it was minute. And then I'd be like, ⁓ okay, I'm good. And then I would do it again. And it was like having that break. I like, never had that with him. That posterior labor was just like relentless pain with intensity and then still pain. ⁓ And then I started. It is the worst. ⁓ Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Yeah. Mm. Right. I've heard it's just the worst. Yeah. Clare: I'm like, do whatever you can to not have a posterior labor as much. I had the vomiting and then I was like, oh, here we go again. And my mom, I said to Greg, like, can you go, I George was asleep in my bed. And I was like, can you go get mom to like wake mom up? She was downstairs to hop into bed with George. Cause like we are going to be leaving. My mom had two Caesars So like, she's like not really seen someone laboring. And she's like, come up. And I'm like very in my zone. Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Yeah. Clare: vomiting and just, is everything okay? I was like, for it. Like, I'm so fine. And then I called Courtney, who was, I knew she started at seven and so I just knew my, I called Tate, her off-sider. And I had actually been in hospital that day on the CTG monitoring because I'd had decreased fetal movements. That was the morning I woke up and I said, something feels different. Like I feel a bit. Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Mm. Yeah. Clare: And I called Courtney and she said, well, if you're worried, like come in and get checked. And so I came in to MAC, which is the Maternity Assessment Center. I'd been on the monitoring for like hours that day. That's why Greg and I got lunch. That's right. Sorry, I forgot. And she, baby had been fine and I'd been having contractions. again, in that like, can't even feel them, but I knew this time it was not what it was going to stay like. But they were getting more intense. And I basically just discharged because the doctors wanted to keep the induction. But. They were really busy and they couldn't get to me. And so I was like, well, I'm not signing discharge against medical advice paperwork because there's no one here. So I was just like, I'm just discharging. I was like, got a toddler, I need to go home. So I just left. So yeah, I knew that Courtney wasn't on shift yet until 7 a.m. and I called Tate and I said, I'm like, I've been laboring since 1130 at night. Like we're 2 30 now. Like I'm, she was listening to me and she's like, oh, you're sounding pretty good. And I was like, look, I feel. Merelise Wilson: I'm just gonna leave, yeah. Clare: Good, the TENS machine is like amazing, but I just want the pool. And so she says, okay, what if I meet you in an hour? So she actually called Courtney, because it was 3.30. It's like, you're going to be hours. And I think she thought like I was pretty progressing pretty well. So Courtney, my actual midwife met me at the hospital at four. And I was like, I thought you were... Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. What are you doing here? Clare: Yeah. And she's like, Tate called me. And so, yeah, she made the decision to come in, which was super beautiful. Did the same thing, like did the checks, down on the ball, did the gas for a while. And Greg was like, you're not maxed out on the tens. Like I was on five and it can go to 10. And I said, it's too intense ⁓ 10. Like I did not need, like the in-between, the contractions was so minimal that the tens was too intense at that level. So I was like, I needed it for the contraction. And then I was actually like almost wanted it off in between. So good. And I said to her, like, can we do a check? And I was really scared because I was like, I don't want you to say I'm at two again. He's like, you're at seven. And I was like, I never even reached seven with George. Merelise Wilson: Mmm. Yeah. Mm. Huh? Yeah! Clare: I've been laboring for five hours. I'm like, did 36 last time. So I was so ecstatic. I was like, I'm going to be having this baby in like two hours. I shouldn't have thought that, but I did. And I'm just going to get in the pool and I'm going to have a baby. I'm going to have water bath. And I got in the pool. I was in the pool for a little while. And she flipped posterior in the pool. Merelise Wilson: That's amazing. What a good feeling. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ Stinker! Clare: I like had this immediate like panic like I was just on the side of the pool and Craig's like he will like a zombie that just woke up like a shark that smelled blood like I was just like get me an epidural and they were like whoa I was like they're posterior like the pain ⁓ my god it's in my back and my butt and she was my midwife was like york I had beautiful Merelise Wilson: Ugh. Clare: beautiful student midwife who had been doing stuff like for me as well. And they were both like, ⁓ she's like, you're okay. Like, hang on a second. This baby has been like rolly polly, like every position we've checked, she's been in a different spot. Merelise Wilson: I was gonna say, I didn't even think they could really move that much, like at that point in labor. Clare: Well, she was almost corkscrowing and I found out why that happens with VVACs. And so she's like, it has been like this side, right side, left side, right side, left side. And now she's just gone posterior. We didn't know it was a girl. We can get this, like she's gone into posterior. We can get her out basically is what she's. So she's like, all right, out of the pool. And I was like, ⁓ she goes, let's break your waters. Cause my waters hadn't broken. And I'm neighboring with waters intact is like. Merelise Wilson: Mmm. Mm. Right. Mmm. Clare: very nice compared to having that like bone on this. And so I was like, no, like, I'm happy to have a bit of progression. Like it had been a few hours and I thought we'd probably been further than we were. She did a check obviously to break my waters and she's like, look, you're eight and a half, like stretchy, almost nine. And I was like, I was a bit disappointed because I was like, I thought I was going to be like 10, you know, like I've been in that pool for probably three hours now. Four maybe. Merelise Wilson: and you're in transition. Hmm. Clare: and she's like, well, let's break your waters and we'll do some spinning babies. And I was like, okay. So broke my borders and they had Macronium in it. Um, I'd had the continual CTG monitoring on an emerald been okay. So they weren't like, she, I was like, what does that mean? Like, obviously I knew what the Cronium was, but I was like, does that, do I need to have antibiotics? Like, what do I need to do? And she's like, well, no, not necessarily. I'm like, yes, we probably could if you want it, but no, it's not. Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right. Clare: protocol at this point, you don't have a fever. was like, okay, so we put a cannula in anyway, and we got some fluids just for like a bit of hydration for me. ⁓ we did an inversion. So the beds at the hospital can lower like split so that so we flipped me like I had my elbows ⁓ the lower part where your feet potentially could be if you were like labor and my body in the air. Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Okay. Clare: And for three contractions, I had the gas, had a sore jaw from biting the gas, had the gas in my mouth. I put the tens back on and she put like the bed sheet over my hips and we did like the shake, the tree, which is like that hard hip shaking. I had three contractions like that, like inverted. So it was probably six minutes of me like being inverted like that. And now you were brutal. Cause these were posterior contractions. And Emma came out of posterior and I was like, Merelise Wilson: ⁓ Yeah. Ugh. Clare: ⁓ my god, I feel amazing. Merelise Wilson: That's so cool that it worked. Clare: It worked. And I was like, this is what I mean by having a team. And she had done the spinning babies course, she had done the hypnobirthing course, like she had done all of those additional training. And I wanted to be on my hands and like on my knees leaning on the bed. Like that was the right visualise myself delivering him. So she's like, cool, the baby's ⁓ Let me like have a feel like Merelise Wilson: Yes. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Clare: see how you are and she's like you are nine and I was like okay she's like right let's just see how we go so I hopped in that position out of the water with the gas on with the tens back on laboring over the back of the bed like leaning into it biting into the pillow if I needed to and it was intense like it was intense like it was not the pain like george like it was intense but I think they you they say like it's good pain it's productive pain Merelise Wilson: Right, right, pain with a purpose. Clare: pain with purpose, like it's not a broken arm. It's, the, and I never had that feeling with George. That's what was so different with Emma. I'm like, this is working. I don't know how long it might have been an hour that I was doing that. And I said, I want an epidural. And she's like, everyone's kind of like, what? And I'm like, I want an epidural. I was like, I am tensing with every contraction now. I cannot relax to let this baby out. Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm, yep. Yeah. Mm-hmm. You're right there. Mmm. Yeah. Clare: I'd had obstetricians kind of coming in and checking on me because she'd started to have like bratties and her heart rate had been going up and then going down. And they were like, every time someone felt my belly, like this baby is so wiggly. Like she is just like moving back and forth, but still staying out of posterior. I'd found out that ⁓ was happening or someone else that had a V back explained it to me. And ⁓ is anecdotal because we don't know what's going on ⁓ that baby is that that she was trying to get past my scar. She was corkscrewing, because you think you've got a completely stretchy uterus apart from one section that's got a scar, rigid. And so she was corkscrewing past my scar. She was trying to stretch past that section. And she got past it after we did that thing, and she flipped out a posterior. And that was where I was like, oh, it feels good. But she wasn't crowning. I was at full dilation, but she was still a centimeter up. Merelise Wilson: Right. Didn't feel good. Mmm. Clare: and they were gonna let me have an hour of passive descent, but I said, I want an epidural. So that happened quite quickly. I had a deep shit of a consultant to do this epidural with Slechtliad and he walked in and Courtney came over to me, my midwife, and she was like, he's a dickhead. And I was like, really? She goes, he is the most condescending dickhead of a doctor. The registrar that was with him was Merelise Wilson: No. Clare: actually the doctor doing my procedure. She's like, he is lovely and he has done many, many epidurals and is very qualified, but he's going to talk to him like it's his first day. So I want you to know, I would never let someone that has never done this before do this, but this is the environment. So she fully prepared me that that was the day in the room. She's like, he's just such a wanker. And I was like, so we sent Greg over to sit in the corner and be on his phone. Merelise Wilson: It's so nice. Right? Yeah. No fainting, Greg. No fainting. Clare: we're not doing that again. and like we had set the room up and I'd said, don't want my tens machine taken off until you are like the same thing. I'd kind of said to the first anesthetist, like until you were sterile. And I was talking to the doctor that was actually doing the procedure and he was like, that's fine. So he said, I could hear him setting up and opening his packets. This consultant walked over and pulled my tens machine off. And I was like, Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Excuse me. Clare: you doing?" And he's like, we have to prep your back. And I was like, you're not your your packets aren't even open. Like you're like five to 10 minutes away. I'm like, I'm having like, minutely contractions. Like that's 10 potentially more contractions that I'm going to have with no analgesia. Like, like, how dare you walk into this? And then he also goes. Merelise Wilson: Right. Right. Clare: Where's the dad? Get him to come over and hold. And I was like, all three of us, four of us in the room were like, no, like this massive echo because we had a plan. Like he just walked into this room, didn't read the room, didn't take any like basically insight, thought he was God's gift to the earth. And I was just like, you fuck with procedure fine. He did a great job, but it was awful because my pain relief had been taken away quite quickly. So in that position, you're trying to stay still. ⁓ Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Yeah. Clare: for a needle in your spine and you're contracting like it's not pleasant. He was quite great. Like he was like, tell me when it ends and I'll go like, I'll put it in straight after. So we've got that like 45 seconds and then we'll wait and then I'll do the, you know, the next threading on the next one. And then they do like a little bit of a flush. And I said to him, I can feel that on my right. I think it's too deep and you'll hear with epidurals that are one sided. It means the catheters progress one way. And so he pulled it back and I'm really glad I said that because Merelise Wilson: Mmm. Yeah. Mm. Clare: I was almost not going to say anything. And he pulled it back and he did a bolus. And then I was like, I want it really light. Like my pain is not that bad. It's more of fear response for me at the And they can do things called a walking epidural, which is where you can move, right? And they don't call walking epidurals, it's just not dense. So I could completely move. I could, they wouldn't let me be off the bed. Like they wouldn't let me stand. Merelise Wilson: Yeah, right. great. Clare: but I could kneel, I could get back into that position that I was in, I'll be on hands and knees with the epidural and the gas. And it was actually, even think I needed the gas at that point. But this, so even though I could move my legs, I did lose the sensation of my contractions. So I was not feeling anything, which is the whole point, but I couldn't like actively participate in that, pushing if that made sense. Emma's heart rate started to up and drop and up and drop. And instead of getting that hour of passive descent, Merelise Wilson: Mmm. What a dream. Right. Clare: The obstetrician, who was the lady, came in and she said, look, I've been watching your CTG from outside, because they're all remotely accessible, so they the screen. And she's like, we've been watching it for an hour, which was when I was getting this whole epidural. I think we need to do some active pushing instead of descent. And I was like, OK, but I'm going to need you on your back. And I was like, damn it, didn't want to be on my back. Merelise Wilson: Was your midwife not able to push back on her about being on your back? Clare: because of the heart rate and she'd been watching it and I'd had another midwife in there and they were all kind of, they just see them all standing there like looking and she's like, you're dilated. Like, let's just get this baby out now. Like I was like, okay. And I was kind of, I was like, okay, no, I'm happy to do that. But I said to her, if I need, like she's like, I said, what's your process? Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Clare: if I need an episiotomy, I said, do you routinely do an episiotomy? She's like, no, not unless you need it. Cause she said I'm going to use a vacuum because she was a centimena up. So she said I need to assist with this. She got me to do some pushers. She's like, let's just do some pushers and see. And so did some pushers, which were like very much assisted, like as in, all right, push now. And I did that and she's like, right, I'm going to need to do a vacuum. And I said, okay, I'm happy for that to happen. Merelise Wilson: Mm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Clare: And I said, okay, do you routinely do an episiotomy with a And she said, not unless needed. ⁓ But I still had a fear ⁓ of the episiotomy, even though I had the epidural on board, it was light, but like, it's just, I was more afraid, so weird, of the episiomotomy, like the snipping than the pushing. ⁓ And so I said her, ⁓ Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I get that. Clare: Can you just give me local? Like, can you just put the local in and don't tell me? I consent to it, but don't tell me if you're gonna do it. I just don't wanna know, basically. Like, sure. And so funny, I've had so many people that have like listened to my birth story and said, why don't they just do the local anyway? Yeah, because then it's the ring of fire is essentially like numb. I think the reason is that ⁓ Merelise Wilson: Mm. Mm-hmm. Hmm. Every time. Right. Ugh. Clare: that ring of fire is sometimes a protective mechanism so you don't tear. The body's like, okay, slow down. Fetal ejection, you know, don't always get an opinion on that. So she was a vacuum. did some like, I've got it all in video. I did like a really big pushing. I was holding both my legs, like up, hand prints. Merelise Wilson: Mmm, tells your body to slow down. Yeah. Yeah. Clare: in my thighs and then Greg was on one leg and then another midwife was on the other leg and we were like pushing and I don't know how long that pushing time it might have been like 10 minutes like it wasn't that it was pretty quick and my midwife filmed like her birth I think it was like maybe five or six pushes and then her head was out and then it was like okay pause for a bit and then it was like the next contraction we pushed and her whole little slippery body came out. Merelise Wilson: ⁓ so pretty quick. Ugh, it's amazing. Yeah. Clare: and she was put straight on my chest and we didn't know if it was boy or girl, we'd already said no one tell us what it is. ⁓ But in that like quite a quick labor, like quite a quick pushing phase, like she was very stunned and she'd been those like D cells, like up and down heart rates for probably two hours before that. So she was a bit stunned. She made a little squawk, but not many people in the room heard that. Merelise Wilson: Hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Clare: my midwife did because she was standing right next to me and I was like rubbing her feet and I'm like hey baby oh my god like she's here and I was like ecstatic like I've done I've done I've like I was over the moon Greg was crying I was like so happy when you see my face I'm just like and the the doctors and then I saw there was a lot of people in the room and I was like oh it's been a Merelise Wilson: You Yeah, you got your VBAC No. Mm-hmm. Clare: and they said, oh, they're rubbing her for a little bit and they're like, look, she's a Maconian birth and she's not cried. And they were kind of a bit like, they're quickly kind of like, all right, we wanna take her and we're just gonna have a little look-see over her. And I was like, oh, okay. I was like, oh, all right. Like I was fine. Like I was like, you we had a bit of skin and I could see the NICU tables just next to me. And so I could see everything that they were doing. Merelise Wilson: Mm. Yeah. Clare: But then that was when I kind of realized someone said to Courtney, like Courtney, push the button. And she was like, okay. And they're like, she's having a PPH. So PPH is a postpartum hemorrhage. And basically I was bleeding. I didn't realize, I felt absolutely fine. But I could, I have managed PPH as an emergency. So then I recognized all of the drugs. They're like, ⁓ we need. Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Clare: toast and she's this and that and like do you consent to us giving you the like needle in your ejection that in your leg just make your you know second stage of labor faster and I was like yeah consent that's fine and there was like a lot of people in the room and then NICU was in the room and I could see Emma and they were giving her a bit of CPAP and I'm there like again back into like emergency nurse mode like, she's a gestational diabetes baby, like just make sure you check her sugar. Like I've got pre-expressed colostrum. You can give her that if she needs a boost and oh, what's her SATs? Oh, it's 87. Like I'm like, oh, that's pretty good for like, know, being a few minutes old. And, you know, I can't really remember hearing her cry. Like she did cry, but they were giving us a sip. I was like, is she needing breaths? And they're like, no, we're just giving her peep and like completely talking medical with these people. And Greg's like, what? Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Clare: the actual fuck is going on because there's like ⁓ a million people at my legs and then the baby's over there getting stuff done. And so he was like, I don't know what's happening right now. And I could hear them saying all of the drugs that they give you with a resus for a PPH. And I was like, I'm aware. And I was like, that's weird. I feel fine. ⁓ And they're like, the NICU nurses were kind of like, who is this chick? Like, why is she talking like this? And she was ⁓ one. Merelise Wilson: while you're hemorrhaging. Yeah. Clare: So was low and I was like, ⁓ that's pretty low. Yeah. You probably need to give her some glucose. Like that's fine. Like sucrose isn't going to, you know, my cholesterol cut it and they're like, who's this girl? Then she cried and you know, over there for maybe five or 10 minutes. And I was like, someone just tell me what is it? Cause we still didn't know what she was. Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Mm. Clare: And so my midwife was like, it's a girl. And I'm like, oh my God. And I like looked at Greg and I'm like, we have a girl, like it's a daughter. Like what? And I was very sure she was a boy. Merelise Wilson: Aww. ⁓ my god. Clare: that was like another bit of an oxytocin boost for him. ⁓ And then I kind of like kind of then realized, ⁓ yeah, there's a lot of people in the room. Like what's kind of happening. Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Were you feeling woozy or anything? No? Clare: No, so I felt so much adrenaline high that I felt so fine. But I could then see them putting things on scales like bloody cloths on the scales because they were trying to work out like how much I was losing. Emma got to come, they were like, we're only keeping her here now because we need to resus you. Like it was just little logistics like she's warm. She's safe. She doesn't need anything from us over here. Like we're just keeping her here because we need to sort you. That's the only reason she's not a n****. And I was like, Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Mmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Clare: Okay, that's fine. ⁓ My placenta was intact and most of the time that's what they think it is when it's a postpartum hemorrhage is like a part of your placenta is broken away. ⁓ very rarely, weirdly, and you can see it in my birth video, very uncommon, I had an arterial bleed from my episiotomy. Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. my gosh. Clare: which is super rare because obviously they don't cut where major arteries are. So minor, you know, superficial artery. So basically they just had to suture me up and then it was fine. Merelise Wilson: Great. ⁓ my God, that is, wow. I mean, was the doctor like my bad? Clare: Well, they, you know, you kind of, they were obviously triaging like what's causing all this blood. See this arterial bleed. And so they're like, it? Yeah. So they were like, so I could see it was like on the wall across the room, like on the door, which is like four or five weeks. so I'm like, that's Venus. That's far. but it's small. The solution is easy. You need to sew that out. Merelise Wilson: Like the spurt. ⁓ ⁓ my God. Right. Clare: put pressure, right? But they were also like, is it just that or is there something else causing this bleeding? So the doctors like trying to then like suture me up quite quickly whilst Merelise Wilson: Right. Thank goodness you had the local and the epidural, otherwise I would have been really not fun. Clare: I'm so grateful that I had both of those things because I felt nothing. yeah, they gave me all the drugs to do all the contracting of the uterus and to do all of that stuff, ⁓ which was fine. I was like, yeah, that's all good. And then once they sutured me out, they were like, we just think it was that. They're like, that's so rare. No one in this room has seen that before. And I was like, okay, I can just tick those boxes, don't I? Merelise Wilson: Yeah. You're just special. Clare: I was like, please weigh my placenta. And I was keeping it to do encapsulation and her placenta was ⁓ a kilo and 10 grams. So was like, again, ⁓ a big, I was like, I grew big babies and she was four kilos. She was the same weight as George, so nearly nine pounds. The biggest difference and why I kept saying she feels more is that she was six centimeters longer than him. Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Wow. Bye bye. So she was like skinnier. Yeah. Wow. Clare: He was skinny, whereas he was chubby. So I'm like, I'm really, I out the long skinny one. Merelise Wilson: Yeah, seriously, that's such a good point. Such a good point. Clare: ⁓ and she's still that she's still long. Yeah. And then the recovery, even having a episiotomy and I started that has a V back and has had to have an episiotomy. I'm like, it two weeks before you compare to Caesar. That is really where you feel that like massive shift in like, ⁓ I feel amazing. I can do things and drive. can chase after my other kid. I can like the. Merelise Wilson: Aww, little string bean. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Clare: Recovery was so much easier after a natural birth, even with a BPH, even with an episiotomy scar, than having a seizure for me. Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Did the doctor ever tell you why she had to do the episiotomy? Clare: Basically because I hadn't had any stretch, because she'd been up and at that like perineum, there was like the perineum was very tight when they finally, that push and the vacuum got her to the perineum. And we were like, we don't have time to sit around here. We want this baby out. She's like, if I had have let you push on that perineum, I was very worried that your tear would have gone to your anus, where we don't want to go. So. Merelise Wilson: Mmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. all the way. Yeah. Clare: know, they do five and seven on the clock like they pick, it's normally left and right. And that's basically to redirect any sort of tearing. And I didn't tear past my episiotomy scar. Like I didn't tear through it, it just that was enough for her head. Like I pushed on my perineum and she didn't move and they were like, it was very white very tight. And so she made that decision. And I ultimately I'd given her that choice. Like I said, you need to do it. Just don't tell me. Merelise Wilson: That's great. Right. Yeah, just don't tell me. That's amazing. And then how was your postpartum, how was your breastfeeding experience with her? Clare: So interestingly with George, who was like a very good breastfeeder, but very frequent breast feeder. Like he was like empty to boob in five minutes and then see you again in four. He was so fast. Like I didn't understand my friends were like, oh yeah, I've just got to do a feed. Like I was like, okay, do a feed and we'll go. And they're like, well that's second. I was like, what? Like this was like done, bye, busy. If Emma had been my first, could, I then understood why people give up breastfeeding. Merelise Wilson: Ugh, that's so nice. I'm so jealous. Mm-mm. Yeah. That's amazing. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Clare: But I breastfed him until he was 17 months and he self weaned. I was 17 weeks pregnant with Emma and I was like fully prepared to tend and breastfeed. Cause this child didn't sleep. I was like, I'm not taking anything away, but he weaned himself so long. That's what happened there. She had, she was born and like, I even looked at her and I was like, her mouth is tiny. And I'm like, it looks ridiculous. These giant boobs trying to. Merelise Wilson: Wow. Come. I know. ⁓ Clare: And they're hard, you're engorged trying to fit this tiny baby mouth on there. I was like, not even latching, because she's just, her mouth's too small. And ⁓ they her with a tongue tie. Okay, I know a bit about that. It doesn't necessarily mean anything has to happen. But at the four week mark, we'd ultimately decided to get them released with a cold laser, ⁓ because I having cracked nipples. She was taking a really long time to feed. She was putting weight. ⁓ Merelise Wilson: Right. Mm-hmm. Clare: Um, but she was just really slow and yeah, she'd fall asleep on the boob. And I was like, I have a toddler, like I cannot be feeding you for 45 minutes girl. So did it make a difference? Yes, I think it probably helped us a bit for her latch. ⁓ I found it very traumatic doing the post care because you have to your fingers and stretch their tongue and you're really reopening the wounds or you're making sure the wounds don't heal. And that was awful. Merelise Wilson: Okay. Yeah. Clare: and you have to do it every like two hours. So I'm like, I have a baby that sleeps and now every two hours I'm waking this baby up in pain. Like that was horrendous. And so I do wonder if they did heal back a little bit. ⁓ I am still her. Like she's two and half. So ⁓ clearly the journey continued. ⁓ Merelise Wilson: Mm. Like, what is happening? Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ wow. So yeah, obviously it worked out. Yeah. Clare: But she was never as easy to feed as yeah, it just gave me a little bit of insight and like breastfeeding is natural, but it's not always easy. Merelise Wilson: Yes, it's best way to put it. It's natural, but it's not always easy. I could not agree more. Clare: So yeah, they were, they're my bubbers and now yeah, four and two and a half or four and a half and two and a half. ⁓ Merelise Wilson: ⁓ it flies, it's crazy. Thank you so much for sharing their birth stories with me. Clare: for having me. Sorry it's a bit long. Merelise Wilson: No, I love it. And you're my first VBAC, so it's very exciting. Clare: Yes, I love sharing a VBAC and you can do it too if you really want it. ⁓ Merelise Wilson: Hmm. You guys are hard to find, at least in the US. Is it more common in Australia or do feel like it's still pretty rare? Clare: Look, I think it's becoming more, maybe our maternity model having a more midwifery based model ⁓ and you know, to the US, because I'm only speaking like from what I've heard in your system, maybe it's a little bit more supportive because like you don't even need to see an obstetrician. Like it's very common for you to not have an obstetrician involved in your care at all in Australia. And ⁓ are surgeons. ⁓ like surgery. Merelise Wilson: Yeah. Pray. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Clare: And so you're more likely to have a Caesar if you're having an obstetrician involved in your care. So maybe that's why, but I think now there definitely is more of a shift to like, like allowing you to try. I think people still tippy toe around it a little bit, but I've had three VBACs on our podcast. So. Merelise Wilson: Right. That's awesome. sounds like I feel like I mean correct me if I'm wrong But I feel like one of the most important parts when attempting a V back is just education Clare: education and having a team. Like if I was a lady going for a VBAC in a private setting and I went to see an obstetrician and I said, I want to have a VBAC and they had anything negative to say about that, I'd be changing care providers because they're not my fit. And that's based on their own bias for whatever opinion and you will find someone that is a better fit for you. ⁓ You know, and even when I had, I said to Courtney, have you ever had a VBAC? And she was like, yeah, I've had two. Merelise Wilson: Right. Yeah. Clare: And so I was like, okay, cool. Like she's like, you can do it. We can do it. Merelise Wilson: Right. Well, and feel like if you hadn't known your facts, known what you wanted, advocated for yourself, when you went to make that had that appointment with the registrar at 39 and five, you probably would have ended up with another C-section because you probably would have had to be induced and all that stuff. Clare: And I felt really wobbly leaving that appointment because ultimately throwing around words like stillbirth and fetal death. And you are so vulnerable and to hear that, they throw the guilt onto you. And the mom guilt is like, am I doing the right thing for my baby or am I being selfish? Like they make you feel that way. And I felt very blessed to have Anne, that consultant in that final appointment who just came in and was like, Merelise Wilson: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm. Mm-hmm. so vulnerable. Right? Right. Mm-hmm. Clare: go home and have baby. And that's exactly what I did. Like that month was canceled because I was in labor. Merelise Wilson: And that's what happened here. Yeah, it's amazing. Well, I'm happy you got ⁓ what you wanted. Well, ⁓ I like end by asking my guests to describe birth in three words, just whatever three words come to mind for you. ⁓ Clare: I did. Thank you. ⁓ my gosh, three. It's given you two hours of content. ⁓ I would say intense, beautiful, and like overwhelmed. Merelise Wilson: Hmm. ⁓ I love that. agree with all those. Well, Claire, thank you for doing this. It was so good to see you. you've been listening to the Arrivals podcast. Until next time, let me stop the recording. Clare: Thank you so much having me.