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with Neuberger's Henry Detering · Two in Twenty

• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: Hello and welcome to another episode of 2 in 20.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: My name is Twink Field.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: I'm the host of these podcasts where we talk to different industry experts for about 20 minutes and hear about their different marketing priorities and perspectives through their careers.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: And today we're talking to Hank Dietering from Newburger.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: He's the CMO there and delighted to say we have quite a wide range of conversation around what marketing should be owning, bringing forward the voice of the client into the business.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: We touch on, of course, some of the thinking for the recent refresh that Newburger have done recently.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: And as is true to our normal structure, we finish up with some tips for listeners.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I think really interestingly, he was talking about making sure, of course, you're good at your day job, but really also understand your role within the wider mission of the business.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: So straight to the conversation I had with him.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: Hank, it is great to have you on the podcast.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you very much for taking the time.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: I've got a few questions up my sleeve, but maybe before jumping into those, you could give us a little bit of an overview as to your career, which will just set the backdrop for the conversation.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: And thanks for having me.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_01: Pleasure to be here.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: I guess I think the relevant background would go back to, you know, about 20 years where coming out of business school, I rejoined Lazard Asset Management and spent the next 15 years really building out a marketing department there.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_01: Traditional institutional asset manager.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: So that meant I started with an RFP team and some people that did pitch books.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_01: But by the end of that journey, you know, we had a global team around the world doing everything from digital marketing and comms through to, of course, all the all the product support.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_01: During COVID, I was given the opportunity or offered the opportunity to move to Switzerland and join Fontable at the group level as CMO.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_01: So that was an adventure kind of too exciting to pass up.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: So family and I moved over there.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_01: Three years later, it was Newberger who had an opportunity back in New York, literally across the street from where I had spent 20 years at Lazard.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: So a little bittersweet to come back, but a great opportunity.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_01: And that's where I've been for the last three years now as CMO globally with Newberger.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for that, Hank.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_00: And actually tease up my next question, which is there are very few people I know who have been the CMO or head of marketing in two different continents.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe you could share some of your reflections of doing business in those different parts of the world.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um and maybe even any tips for those who are thinking about a kind of significant move like that.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I mean, you're it is different, right?
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um things are different.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I th but I think the advice is is pretty standard, right?
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, anyone going into a new role, I would recommend you listen more than you talk.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_01: But I think that that is a much you know that carries much more weight and maybe listen longer, listen harder, really try to understand why things are done that way.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I had the benefit, I think part of the reason I got the opportunity, I I was an exchange student in high school.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: I lived overseas and studied overseas throughout my career.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: So I had I was used to that.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I knew you know, even if things really don't seem right to you, to kind of bite your tongue and try to figure out why is it like that?
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_01: And and because I think you know, it's easy for us to think, well, the right way is that I've learned everything, I know, I know what the right thing to do is, but just you can't take for granted that everyone will agree or believe or have come from the the perspective that that is the right thing.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that seeking to understand and then and then you know when when you do have a strong opinion, you start to bridge those gaps, right?
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the the fun and exciting part of work like that is that you've seen what is the right answer in different places, and you can start to pull that together and take the best from both worlds and teach your team things they maybe aren't that what's common for us isn't so common over there, and vice versa, things that they've taken for granted seemed new to me.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that that's the fun part of that.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_01: But but it's it's definitely important that you go into those roles with a bit of humility and and curiosity.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_00: Great advice.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_00: And then maybe with your sort of boomerang return back to the US, Hank, you know, as I understand it, you know, New Berger, you know, it takes a lot of pride in being an investment-led business.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: And to your point around listening and immersing in that culture, thinking about stakeholder management there, how how has all of that influenced how you've driven through marketing-led initiatives in in that sort of investment sort of heavy environment?
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's interesting you say that because I think we would say we're a client-led organization, right?
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like with really the center of everything we do is is that client service.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_01: But that said, what is the client service?
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_01: We're we're giving investment uh advice, investment performance, client service.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_01: So very, very much an investment org, but we we see it, you know, I think the clients first, whatever they need, however, we can help solve their solutions.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: And but that is then how it it frames everything, right?
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_01: You've come in, what is marketing's role in that mission?
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I think you know, there are a lot of things we we hear the client, we have a voice of the client, how do we feed that up through the organization?
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_01: How are we helping the client coverage folks so those relationship managers like gather the intel, feed that back, feed the product info, you know, with the with the product teams, and of how are we helping explain what we do?
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_01: How are we bringing forth you know what's different about that, what their insights are?
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_01: So all in the mission of that kind of delivering for clients.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: That's the the kind of guiding star, and that that that has very much driven everything that we've done since I've since I've been there.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I guess does the same um is the same true for you've notably refreshed the brand recently.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: Was that also driven from that understanding kind of voice of the client alongs, you know, alongside some other metrics or sort of impetus within the business for that refresh?
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_00: How how did that come about?
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean it it was, right?
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we we we've been careful to call it a refresh.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_01: That meant that nuance matters for us.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_01: It's not a rebrand or a new brand.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_01: We were quite happy with the brand that we had, but feedback from you know when I came in, so part of kind of my my my coming on board that the the firm had grown a lot in different markets, particularly in Europe, Asia, uh, in new channels, we weren't known as well, particularly those particularly the intermediary channels where brand really matters, and as a partner, they want you know to you to grow together.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_01: And so that was where what we had was just you know, it needed a refresh.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_01: It didn't, it didn't fit in, it was designed for the print world, right?
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: So if you our older logo with the kind of fine seraphant and in a digital space where things are animated in motion, you know, we've really saw this as improving.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_01: We needed to improve the client experience and frankly the digital communication experience.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: And that led to things like if we need a loss a logo that will show up now in digital apps and things like that.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, it does come down to like the name we have is too long.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_01: What do we do?
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_01: What do we do about that?
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_01: I think we consulted clients and the in the firm and ever just to make sure though that we wanted it to be comfortable.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_01: That I think a driving finish was you know, the biggest mistake would be that the clients were like, What did what did you do?
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_01: I'm confused, or or this doesn't make sense.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and I've been frankly very happy and encouraged that uh now that we're on the other side of it, the feedback has generally been like, oh, okay, like yeah, I called you New Burger anyway, or that makes sense, or it's like, you know, it's a lot more.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, the the best reaction we've gotten is like, oh, the site's so much better, I can find what I want now, right?
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_01: Because that's exactly what the point was.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_01: So it wasn't a marketing driven, you know, it wasn't for marketing reasons uh so much as as a natural need to update, refresh, get ready in a digital first world, and and I think we've we've managed that.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_00: And has that change with that objective?
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_00: Has that changed some of the metrics that you've put around that in order to kind of play back to the business the success of it?
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_00: Or or and maybe there's a combination of the anecdotal to some of your quotes, to those kind of friction points being removed from the website, etc.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_01: So I mean, of course, I don't want to, you know, totally ignore the fact that that it's a you know, with we're marketing, it's a brand uh effort.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I do want more and more people to know who Newberger is in the world, right?
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_01: So the uh awareness matters.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_01: We think we have a great story to tell, and we want to tell it more.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the research we had is that we we just were, you know, we may be very well known on Sixth Avenue in in New York City, but that you you know you le you leave that block and and that the the the awareness fades quickly.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_01: But a big part of it was the messaging because when we also take such great pride in our ownership structure and the way we run the firm, and that really is a differentiating factor, and we really, you know, we strongly believe that that benefits the clients.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_01: Again, it's just us, and there's no kind of outside influence from a uh, you know, a parent company or external shareholder, we're an employee-owned.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_01: All of the firm is owned by employees with no kind of controlling shareholder, and so it really does.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, having been in a private Lazard, a public Lazard, a Vontoboel that was family owned, you know, now back into wholly employee-owned, it really is different.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_01: But if we asked when we surveyed clients, like, how do how do you value employee ownership?
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_01: It was bottom of the pie.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_01: It was not valued at all.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: And so typical marketing challenge, like this is a great benefit.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_01: Like, how do we, you know, how do we express that?
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the issue, you know, to you know, common marketing paradigm, we were, you know, people were selling the feature, not the benefits, right?
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_01: And so we have, I think, worked on that story to show that ownership really aligns us with our clients in ways that we don't think it, I mean, any no one else can really speak to that uh the way we do.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_01: And therefore, you know, that message coming through, you know, we had to open up a new category like alignment, nobody thought about it in our space.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_01: But uh, I think we'd like people to focus on that because I think then our story really comes through.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_01: So that that is a metric, right, as well, which is can we is this story coming through behind the increased awareness?
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_01: But yes, lots of stats on on KPIs on on the website, client experience we we run since I've come in.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: We now run regular um client surveys, so we track CSAT or client satisfaction, we track NPS.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: And again, I think that evidences our real focus on this is a client organization, we want to make sure clients are happy.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_01: And more than that, we don't want to be more than happy, we want them to be you know big fans that would that would recommend us.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, those are the stats.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_00: Awesome, thank you.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I guess you made me think around sort of brand governance as well, because I think your point around sort of the verbal identity, the put the messaging, the alignment positioning that you're sort of driving at must resonate around the world with all sorts of different sort of clients, and having some flexibility as to what does that alignment mean with different client types?
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: So I guess that's one piece around the consistency in terms of the anchoring benefit, but then how do you think about the the visual identity piece, how you're showing up in the right way in that sort of part of the world, and sort of you know, what how do you get the right balance with the governance to be locally resonant and maintain a consistency?
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I'm probably you know, my peers, this this topic comes up a lot.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_01: I I know you and I have discussed it in the past and in different forums, and and maybe not surprising since you've heard, you know, having lived in different places, like I lived around the world, studied, I know and and really and and had the benefit and privilege of kind of working in real global firms for for my life.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_01: I value more than many, maybe, or sorry, I tolerate more than many the kind of localization and and a bit of flexibility.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think the brand should be rigid.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: Now it's interesting, you you mentioned but the visual, like there are like you can't change the logo.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_01: You can't they so the visual identity, I think, is what translates globally, right?
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_01: You see it particularly now.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_01: Again, I said a big focus for us was how you know evolving into the digital space, the digital world is global from social media and elsewhere, and you know, visitors around the web, as much as we may send them to different country sites, you know, they they can see everything.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think you need that consistent visual identity.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: The way you translate the message locally, I think you need to give a lot of latitude for.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_01: As long as the key messaging points are coming through, which again to me is like our who we are, what's unique about us, what that value proposition is, we've spent a lot of time really, you know, honing that internally and getting everything, like we all agree, like we know what that is, right?
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_01: That particularly that the the shape of our business and then the way we run it is different.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_01: So as long as that message is what's coming through locally, I'm kind of happy how they do it.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_01: But back to the visual identity, if you have a very rigid visual identity, that's problematic, right?
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_01: Because so what may look great in one country if you only have one color to work with, and culturally that's the wrong one in a certain place, you know, that that that's always going to be an issue.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I so I think one of the things that we did this time was kind of loosen that up, right?
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: We we had, like many in the industry, historically used blue.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, we still do, but we've added several more colors to it, right?
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I think more in terms of a palette that is our brand visual identity is not a color.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_01: There's kind of a design system that's flexible.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_01: So giving your creative teams a better toolbox to work with, I think then enables them to be on brand, be within the governance model, but flex and do, you know, apply that locally.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: So nice.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like I've got lots of questions to stay talking about brand with you, Hank, but we probably shouldn't, we should broaden it out a little bit before uh we get timed out.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe you could just talk about more broadly or holistically, what do you feel like marketing should be advancing and owning to really maintain this kind of prominent strategic position within the business, but also really help the company to to compete in in a congested market?
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think look, you know, this is now I'm I'm wrapping up my my third uh gener my third decade uh in this, and I as I said, I started out, you know, marketing in our business was was RFPs.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I think we've come a long way, but if you look at what is the role of marketing in other industries, I think that can give you some kind of some insights.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_01: I think the voice of the client is really, you know, one of the primary roles of marketing.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: You know, again, we we in this industry have tended to rely on our on our relationship managers to bring that in.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, they have the frontline client interactions and I think very rich, very real data.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: It is, however, you know, the sample size is smaller because it's limited by how many people they can talk to each day.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: And it's somewhat anecdotal.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I think we have the quantity on our side now through all of the digital tools, uh, what we can pick up in the markets, not just in our own properties, but increasingly we can really get a sense of what do people think about us, what are they talking about us, what questions do they have, what are their needs.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: Most tellingly, what are they thinking or doing that doesn't match what they're telling us directly?
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_01: We can even get into kind of seeing the actions versus the comments.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: So I think there's a real opportunity and need for marketing to kind of bring all of that intelligence to the organization.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_01: Again, I think it will ultimately help you serve your clients better if you really know what they're after and what do they need.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_01: So uh I think that's something we probably don't rely on marketing to do as much in this industry as we could, um, and as and as others may do.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_01: Connected to that is analytics.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_01: So it's been a, you know, it's we've been talking about data and analytics for a very long time now, and I think many of us have gotten much better at generating and collecting a lot of data.
• 16:41
  unknown: Yeah.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_01: Interpreting and acting on that and letting it actually drive decisions, I think, still is probably uh a big opportunity for most of us.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_01: I'll admit it is for us.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we're getting better at that, but but we're focused on it, and I think again, if we have all that intelligence which we bring to the organization, we have a duty to use it and and to use it to, you know, properly and for ourselves in marketing, but again, what what is what do we feed to others?
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I think what's new maybe is the whole new world of AI.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I think a lot of it's been, you know, a lot of the talk's been focused on how do we be more efficient and or which which and there's huge opportunities there, both in making your normal job easier and faster and better, as well as doing some things that you know the the computers can do them now and instead of humans or outsource firms or whatever.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think a lot of the like text to video and and and you know, the opportunities are crazy.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: Now that said, we're in a very people business where trust is the most important thing.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_01: So I think we have to be be careful with that, and again, in consultation with your clients, figure out how far they'd like you to use those tools.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: But I think kind of the the leading edge, the last part of my answer here is you know, we've spent our whole life trying to understand our clients, the different segments among institutions or intermediaries or individuals, high network, you know, and then there's subcategories in each of those.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_01: We now have a whole new world of clients.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_01: We have language models that are effectively cohorts uh who are creating their own opinions about us and telling people them, right?
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, which is exactly what humans do.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that's an interesting space where we have to watch and and interesting, guess what?
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_01: They're each different, every model has a different opinion of who Newberger is and what our strengths are and how we compare to someone else.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I think still time to tell like how important is that?
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: Are really are people really only gonna talk to their agent and and at never go to a website and never look at primary data themselves and only rely on that?
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I I maybe, but if so, that's still a long ways away.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_01: But we need to understand that, track that.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_01: Again, we're the the practitioners in the digital space, so it's our job really to help the firm understand that and and help manage that.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_01: I don't see you know who else would be doing that.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_01: And so for me, that's that's something right now that's a a pretty big focus, which is just trying to understand it all and figure out which parts we're we're gonna uh address how, which ones we're gonna wait and see on.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_01: But that to me, I think is a big leadership opportunity in the organization for marketing organizations, because we're at the that's our space, and it's a very fast-moving, evolving one that is sure to have you know some some real big impact when we look back several years from now.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_00: Really interesting.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_00: And then so I guess as we often do in wrapping up these conversations, is give sort of tips and uh kind of final thoughts for careers for for our listeners.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: So maybe within like the context of those pieces of kind of around innovation, around being the voice of the client, what would be your recommendations or how do you think, you know, what do you ask of your team as a as leadership to try and make sure you have kind of marketing really playing through that role and owning those pieces?
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: It it sounds I mean, I always worry I'm repeating myself, but I guess I'm not always talking to the same person.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: But whenever I get this question, it's it's the same advice, right?
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_01: Which is that I think it's really important you understand the mission of your firm.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: How does this industry work?
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_01: What's our role in it?
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_01: What are we trying to do?
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_01: I tell my marketers, you know, we're marketers, we bring marketing skill to the to the table, but it's part of the puzzle, whether we are answering RFPs, whether we are doing marketing campaigns, whether we're running websites or sending, you know, social media, any and all of the above, PR comms.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_01: But you're not gonna build your career, I don't think, uh, at Newburger or at firms like Newburger by getting the highest click rate on an email because you had the cleverest subject line, right?
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like we want that tactic and that skill, and that's a piece of something, but that isn't it.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_01: It's important you know why we are doing that, where does that fit into the whole chain, that whole kind of customer journey and life cycle and the mission of the firm, which for most of us is to help people with their investment needs, right?
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_01: And really deliver on that, we think, with good investment performance and great client service.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_01: So, what's my role in that mission?
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_01: Really understanding that big picture, I think, uh, is key because it means whatever problem you're faced with, your solution, I hope, isn't gonna be a micro one that just does this piece today, but it's in service to what that bigger plan is and that bigger mission.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: And those of us in a in a leadership position, you know, we see that, we value that because those are the kind of problem solvers that we want on the team.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_01: You've got to be good at your day job.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_01: You don't really have a license to ask to do more or do other things if you're not good at what you're there to do.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm not minimizing the marketing skills or what you know, whatever role you're in, whatever your your local skill set is and your daily job.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: But I really think it's important that you are curious and constantly doing everything you can to understand how your company works, you know, what are the what are the investment strategies or investment products that you have, what are they used for, what kind of clients need them in what in you know at what times, who are your clients, what's different about them, what drives them, what are their needs, and how are you as an organization organized to kind of respond to that?
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's easy for me to say in a position where I'm right in the middle of all that and I see that and I know if you're just starting out, you generally don't necessarily have that perspective.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_01: But I would challenge you, you're offered that perspective.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_01: There's always, I mean, firms like ours do lots of things to give people that education, that exposure.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's important that you engage there, you take those opportunities, that you're curious and that you're, you know, ask questions.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_01: You don't look silly if you're asking questions, you know, to help you find your way on that educational path.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I again that those are the clues that people like me see, you know, that we we pick up on.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_01: So that's my oft-repeated, but strongly held.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_00: No, I think I think somehow trying to ensure people don't self-limit by not asking the questions, by not sort of thinking through that sort of wider context.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_00: So really inspiring.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for sharing that and for taking your time today.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: I'm afraid I think we're out of time, Hank, but it has been such a pleasure talking to you.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much, as always.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: Lots of great little sound bites and and things to think through.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: So really thank you again.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_00: Great to talk to you.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, my pleasure.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for having me, and good to see you again.