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When Churches, Gen Z, and Culture Collide · Relish: a Christian podcast

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  Relish pleasing or zestful flavor a quantity
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  just sufficient to flavor to be pleased or
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  gratified by enjoy we are hoping that what
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  we bring to your table today might add some spice
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  to your life welcome back to another episode of relish i am robert miller and
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  don patterson and then marcus miller as you saw on the last episode we brought
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  him back on i guess we decided that he was worthy of being on relish.
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  So there you go. He got to stick around.
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  Another star in your crown. Yeah.
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  Jewel in your crown. Yeah.
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  So today, we're not quite sure, but we'll have a conversation going.
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  Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I saw on my brother-in-law, God bless him,
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  sent me your brother-in-law's, my brother-in-law sent me your brother-in-law's post.
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  And it had to do with the fact that he would like to have had a conversation
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  with Charlie in person and debate in person.
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  And he basically said his condolences to the family.
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  And he was sorry that Charlie had been killed.
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  And he was very, you know, I thought it was appropriate in that light.
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  And then he was basically saying he wished he'd had a chance to debate him.
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  And I got thinking from that, oh, man, that would be fun.
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  I mean, Charlie was so good at those things.
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  I don't know about your brother-in-law, but I imagine he's well informed on
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  the issues that were coming around.
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  And, uh, I, I sort of mourned the fact it couldn't happen and, uh,
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  wondered how can we do this conversation that's not going well in Washington,
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  DC right now, but how can we do the conversation better between,
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  uh, what's on one side and what's on the other?
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  I, I right and left and you're a little more left than I am. I think, right, Marcus?
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  I'm on the right here. Well, yes, you're right.
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  Very well. But you said something before we started this about your brother-in-law
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  and what he received in that process of just posting that one post.
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  Yeah, well, and actually it goes back further.
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  So in, I think it was 2016 or 17, the Turning Point USA group put out a professor watch list.
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  And my brother-in-law, who's a history professor at University of Montana,
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  he's the head of the African American History Department, ended up on that list.
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  And he didn't know anything about it until he started getting death threats.
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  And death threats significant enough that the university security people,
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  you know, it's like when you're on campus, you need to be careful and probably
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  shouldn't walk to campus anymore.
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  And, you know, taking those kind of precautions.
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  So, it did have a—it wasn't just out there. It was something that was like there
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  were specific concerns.
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  And, um—,
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  Coben has done a lot of work with, uh, anti-racism things.
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  And so, yeah, he's used to reaching out and talking to a wide variety of people.
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  And so he tried to initiate a conversation with the group and,
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  uh, with Charlie Kirk, who was the name I wasn't familiar with then.
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  And I still don't really, it's not so bad I've listened to. He would have been extremely young then.
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  Yeah. In 16. Yeah. Um, yeah.
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  Did his best to try and reach out, offered to meet with him in private,
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  in public, over coffee, for a beer, whatever he would want, to talk about why
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  he was on this watch list.
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  Never got responses, or if he did get responses, they were no, were not interested.
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  Wow. So that's what prompted his recent vote after his death.
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  So did he get responses to that post? Oh, I'm sure he did.
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  But you don't know what they are. Okay. Well, I think, you know,
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  just what I saw, many of them were positive, but he, yeah, he also received some negative ones.
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  And he was a little concerned because after he was killed, he got calls from
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  like higher ed magazines and different magazines that knew he had been on that watch list,
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  wanting to know his reaction.
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  And, you know, some of that is, well, we're trying to generate clicks and responses,
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  so we want something controversial.
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  Tobin talked to a few, he didn't, he turned down quite a few, I think.
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  I think one of the other issues for him was knowing other people on that list,
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  particularly women, minority women.
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  And it was like, I'm, you know, he's a white male. And so he's at a place where
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  he feels a little single.
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  Like, maybe I should speak out instead of some of those people who feel like
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  more of a target has been put on them.
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  Or maybe are in more vulnerable positions than what Tobin is.
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  Maybe we ought to invite him.
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  Have him come. Yeah. For make the trip. But, okay,
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  bottom line of my concern is, how can we have conversations well that illustrate
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  both ends of the spectrum with respect and come to a, I see a polarization happening
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  that's pulling the country apart.
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  And I don't think we as Christians should be in that mode.
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  Instead, we've got a message that should be aligning and driving through the
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  middle of this in such a way that it doesn't polarize in the same way But churches
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  are being polarized as well,
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  And so I'm trying to figure as a pastor, how do we navigate these wonderful
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  waters we've been given to get through.
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  That's why you're the pastor. Oh, that's why. God bless me.
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  Because, you know, here we are. How do we do this being Christian better together?
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  I mean, in the last episode, we had straight coats and we didn't get barn door
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  britches. I wish we had them.
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  We need you to model barn door britches.
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  But in the midst of that, those are the kinds of things we could fight over before.
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  And so then there ended up being churches that would be separated because,
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  oh, well, we can't have cars with chrome stripes on them. Our cars have to be black.
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  Or we still are in buggies. Or we have barn door britches. Or you have to have a frock coat.
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  To me, those are a lot easier to try to figure out a way through than when we
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  talk about how do we deal with social issues in an economy that's already stressed
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  with a debt that's great and huge.
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  And so how do we do these things better?
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  To me, there should be a really good, respectful conversation that that grows out of.
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  So, how do we do that? Other than Marcus and Don have coffee.
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  Or do we? Well, I think just as a former social studies teacher,
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  I think people have lost the art of discussing and arguing well.
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  I remember that was Sunday afternoon entertainment at some of my extended family
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  gatherings was the uncles arguing.
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  And if they all agreed, somebody would play the devil's advocate.
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  But it was cheating to say you were doing the devil's advocate thing.
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  You were doing it without saying that.
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  And at the end of the time, they all were brothers and loved each other.
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  And you could see that as a young person.
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  And when you got to be a teenager and you ventured to share your opinion,
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  And you learned you better be able to back it up in some way.
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  Otherwise, they could kind of gently, or maybe not so gently,
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  tear you apart. Or tear apart your argument. They are you.
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  And that's maybe one of the things is we tend to tear apart each other.
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  We don't focus on the argument. We focus on the person and the social categories they fit.
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  But in the episode I watched before, you talked about biblical literacy, and I,
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  I think we've lost some of that. We've lost a lot of that. I agree with what you said.
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  You know, when you read stories about pastors being criticized for reading from
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  the Sermon on the Mount, that it's, what's this woke stuff coming from?
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  I mean, that's an example of biblical illiteracy.
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  You know, Jesus said to help take care of the poor.
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  He also said you'll always have them with you. I was going to say that he said
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  the same thing. But, you know, there's, he, you know, what did he say?
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  He came to bring liberation to the captives and freedom to the oppressed.
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  Right. And he was quoting the Old Testament when he did that in Luke 4.
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  And so, yeah, I'd like to think the church is still relevant and has a role
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  to play, but I think it's forgotten some of those basic missions.
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  Yeah it's forgotten the basic missions uh it's
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  leaned on the government maybe to do things that
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  the church ought to be doing i think i've said that more than once so then uh
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  we're going to be passing down this wonderful tradition of ours to the next
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  generation what's exciting to me is that roan's generation is excited about
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  the word they're excited about discipleship,
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  how do we as old codgers live into the next generation so the conversation can be had with respect?
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  Yeah, because that's what you want. I mean, you're not...
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  What do you think? I mean, is that a conversation you want as young Christians?
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  Or not?
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  I think, I don't know how I'm supposed to answer that, but.
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  Well, I know you're hungry. Right. I mean, about everything that we've talked about.
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  I think it's a different look than anything that, like, the faith in Christianity
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  has seen before necessarily. Well, I hadn't thought about that.
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  I think the way that, say, my generation is fired up is different than how your guys' generation was.
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  Like, a lot of people are, like, Forrest Frank and his rap Christian,
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  I think, is reaching a lot more people.
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  And they're hearing it. And I don't necessarily know how many people know what
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  it means, but they're— But it's out there beyond the church.
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  Right. And I think in my generation and Marcus's, all the faith stuff happened
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  in the church, or at least within its constraints of, this is an evangelistic
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  event, so we're going to team up with these other churches, and it's okay because that's kosher.
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  But what's happening now is in convention forums and very free platforms that
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  aren't constrained to the walls of the church. That's great.
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  My concern then is in those platforms, where's the discipleship going to come
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  from that gets them deeper into their relationship with Jesus?
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  Yeah, I think the, like we have the mentor mentee program, so that with your, yeah,
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  you get somebody that with more wisdom, a couple more years than you,
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  and they can help walk you through it, your parents, grandparents.
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  Yeah, I think the main thing is like staying, staying connected within your,
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  within your church and prioritizing your Sunday mornings.
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  Cause even not like nowadays, I can kind of see that going away, but.
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  So Marcus was bringing the social concerns and how we take care of the poor
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  and the needy and the blind, uh, is one of those in that passage in Luke four.
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  So, uh, how, how do you see Gen Z moving forward to address social issues?
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  I have no idea. I think with, I don't think that there's, I think it's hard
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  to tell now with like my generation, we're not making,
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  like we're not having thousands of dollars rolling in yet.
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  I thought you were making megabytes, dude. Not yet, not yet.
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  Yeah, it's these videos that have to do that. Right, right. So we haven't,
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  I don't think that's necessarily thought, like, I don't think that's been a
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  idea or topic that people in my generation have thought about.
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  I don't, I don't necessarily think we have like a plan for that or anything, but.
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  There's no master plan. Right. No master plan. Well, and, you know,
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  a lot of Christian movements have moved without a master plan.
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  Yeah. I don't think it's been considered much, but.
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  But I think, correct me if I'm wrong, in our generation, there was a lot of,
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  and the generation before us, there was a lot of emphasis on building institutions
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  and maintaining institutions.
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  You know, things like MCC, Mennonite Church, and different denominations.
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  The young people I've hung around with, the institutional church is not something
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  that excites them. Right.
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  And the money spent to maintain institutions.
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  I think, again, the ones I see have, they've sort of formed community among friends and neighbors,
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  and that's sort of where church is happening.
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  It looks a lot different than what I grew up with, but that's where they're
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  finding their support, guidance, what they contribute to, for right or wrong.
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  So then, it will have to be as they find out who Christ is more,
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  that it develops those connections to the poor and the hungry and the blind and the lame.
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  Well, and I think they know who Jesus is, or have an appreciation for that,
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  but they don't see that reflected in the institutional church.
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  And so it's a critique of the— christendom or whatever yeah yeah well you know
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  when you see and rightly so huh you know church budget meetings are not fun
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  are they they are not fun and it's not something that excites,
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  young people or many people it's certainly don't excite me many people and yeah
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  um and like the world said we don't have any money anyway so why but if you're
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  going to keep the institution going and you have to have those, right?
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  The institution. Yeah. But I happened to have been the president,
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  the chairman of the MCC sale in Iowa at the time when we could no longer get
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  volunteers for lead positions.
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  We could get lots of volunteers for other positions, but for those positions
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  of leadership, we could not get a soul.
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  It was when we made that decision, it was unanimous.
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  We could not continue the sale because we couldn't get those lead positions.
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  So somehow or another, we lost the vision or lost the chance to share the vision
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  of what could be done through that. But it was an institution,
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  like you're saying, Marcus.
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  And so maybe it needed to go.
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  Boy, yeah, that was hard.
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  Then how do we make up the difference? And actually what we were seeing is that
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  Gen Z was investing heavy in the mission.
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  They just didn't want to have the positions and all the things that go with that.
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  And I was impressed with the young people that were on the board at that time.
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  And I knew their commitment to MCC and the work of taking care of the poor and the hungry.
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  And if anybody sees this before the meat canning, the Iowa meat canner is gonna
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  be in the first couple of weeks of December and you can still sign up for the meat canner.
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  And that's a way that we try to feed the poor and help in that way.
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  Thousands of pounds of meat will go out from that canner and that work in those
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  three days I think it is uh.
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  Well, to me, this conversation is illuminating the fact that we can do it better.
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  I guess I would applaud the Gen Z and the new, I guess, the number of Bibles have gone up.
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  The sale of Bibles have gone up 50%, which is major.
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  And what was the other statistic I saw that indicated that there's new investment in the Christian faith?
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  And so I applaud that. But I keep asking myself the question,
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  how can we facilitate what's going on naturally to go better?
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  You know, maybe fill in that social gap that how do we take care of the poor
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  gap that has to be taken care of.
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  I also think that You're talking
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  about churches and institutions I think that On the
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  inside Those are changing also Rather than You have the Mennonite church here
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  Then we sing our hymns And pass the offering And have sharing time And prayer
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  And Sunday school and fellowship But then you,
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  There's bigger churches Bigger areas That'll have Three services A Sunday They
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  might Have Sunday school There's not really Fellowship Because Such a massive
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  Group Congregation And you know.
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  You don't stick around and you're hustling out the doors or whatever.
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  And what I think is interesting, in this congregation, we thought,
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  well, Sunday morning, that's really good, but we need prayer and we need praise
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  and we need times of healing.
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  And so actually out of the congregation has grown another service that is basically has no sermon.
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  I mean, really, can you have a service without a sermon? And so,
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  it actually is an evening of Scripture, praise, prayer, and it's a great time.
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  So, I think even the congregations, the institutional church is beginning to
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  ask for things they haven't gotten, haven't had on their radar for a while.
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  So, I praise the Lord, things are happening. And I'm glad to be a part of it.
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  Yeah. well Marcus I really appreciated the conversation we may have to do coffee
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  again in our future and I respect my brother,
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  we've seen a lot of things some of the same things and yeah our conversations
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  have been rich thank you yeah,
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  thank you guys for joining us hope you enjoyed it let us know if and if you
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  didn't you can let us know let us know anything If there's something else that
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  you want us to talk about, also let us know.
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  We'd be glad. Or if you have a guest you wanted to have on. Right.
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  We don't want to cut anybody out, you know. This is a fun time.
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  Yeah. We'll go from there. Yeah.
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  Thank you guys for listening, and we'll see you next time. Thank you for joining us for this podcast.
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  Our goal is to help each other grow deeper in our understanding of who God is
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  and his calling to us in our daily lives.
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  Thank you again for joining us and may God bless your day.