Latest / Curiously Guided Podcast / Ep.51 | Being a Creative Thinker vs. an Overthinker with Brand Strategist, Melinda Livsey

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Ep.51 | Being a Creative Thinker vs. an Overthinker with Brand Strategist, Melinda Livsey · Curiously Guided Podcast

• 0:09
  SPEAKER_02: All right, welcome back to the Curiously Guided Podcast, the place for intuitive business owners and curious minds.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_02: We're your host, Shay Mariah, and today we have a very special guest to me in particular.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_02: We're bringing on one of my mentors, good friends, and former clients, Melinda Livsey.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_02: She is, I said this about Rebecca too.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_02: Like she's one of those people in my life that feels like sunshine when you're around her.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_02: She just the way that she looks at the things and the way that she thinks about things and the way that she talks about things.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_02: I literally feel like I need to have a notepad and a pin with me all the time because she is just like dropping gems constantly.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_02: And so in this episode, I got to, you know, like ask her all the questions and we really got to shine the light on her for a bit, which was fun because she's so good at asking questions of other people.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_02: So um I won't spoil it for you guys, but get out your notepad and your pin because there are just some bombs in this episode.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_02: And I think y'all will walk away with a lot.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like literally.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: So usually when we record an episode, me and Shay will let it marinate for a little bit, and then we will re-listen to it so that, you know, so Shay can edit the audio files, and then so I can jot down just like bullet points for show notes.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_00: I have never done this before, but I literally listened to the episode once to get the show notes, and then I ended up listening to it again and literally took like a full notebooks page of notes, and it's literally just like quotes from Melinda, which is like fucking hilarious.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: But like it is just the way that she explains things is so empowering.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so, like in this episode, we do dive into like brand strategy and like your creative process and and things like that, but it's so much more than that.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like the quotes that she gives.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_00: And so I started following Melinda on Instagram, and she brings the same like punch to her Instagram captions.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, yo, I literally wish that you just had a podcast of you just like rereading what you write so that we can just hear it in our ears all of the time.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I think one of one of my favorite pieces of this was diving into like the uncertified movement too.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_00: So like Melinda's really big in like being uncertified in the world of like brand strategy and creatives.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I just really appreciate her perspectives and the way that she handled all of my all of my questions and everything.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: So, you guys, this episode is so good.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: Let me just read her bio and then we'll kick it into it.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: So, Melinda Livsey is a graphic designer-turned brand strategist and founder of the brand strategy bootcamp.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: Her aim is to help make brand strategy and life easier for the creative overthinker and believes that curiosity is the only certification creatives need.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: All right, let's kick it into the episode.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, today we are so excited.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_02: We have a very special guest for me.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um, Melinda Livsey has joined us on the podcast.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um, just a little background.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_02: Melinda is like my example that like greater magic happens in this universe.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_02: I have been fangirling over her for years now.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_02: I think like way back in gosh, I don't even know, like 2017 or 2018, I was living in Taiwan and um just starting my business.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_02: And I was, I had a lunch break every day, and I would walk around the track and listen to Melinda look, whether it was a YouTube video or a podcast, and just be like, I think this woman is so incredible.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_02: Her brain works exactly like mine, and I want to be around her.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_02: And um, and and you felt like she she's a big star and just felt so far away.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_02: And so when I came back, I, you know, joined her program, brand strategy bootcamp.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_02: It was incredibly transformational for me and my career and just the path I'm on now.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_02: And then through that work, I was fortunate enough to end up working with Melinda and getting to know her really well.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_02: And she is just one of those people that when you're around her, it feels like sunshine.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_02: She makes you feel like an incredible human.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_02: And having her on the podcast has been um honestly a goal of mine since we first started the podcast.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_02: So we are thrilled to have you here today, Melinda.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_02: And um I can't wait to dive into your story.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_03: Wow, what an intro.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you, Shay.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_03: It's nice to be here.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_02: Well, if you don't mind, I would love to just like um rewind the clock.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_02: And so your story for people who don't know is I think really inspiring.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_02: You started off as a graphic designer working for a pretty major company and like a pretty what I would call like typical situation, right?
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_02: Like cubicle nine to five.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_02: I don't really know, but like take us back there.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_02: How did you go from that kind of role and make your initial hop into the online business space?
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that was, yeah, you got it right.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_03: I I got my start as a graphic designer, um, billion-dollar company.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_03: And I started off doing general graphic design things.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_03: So, I mean, literally anything that needed graphics, we did and uh worked with marketing and advertising, retail, uh, worked on photo shoots and um just everything there.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_03: And then as I worked in that company, I started getting more specialized in different, different departments.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_03: And so I ended up in the branding, the branding department.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_03: It was um at the time it was called the design kitchen or special projects.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_03: And so we got to work on the brand, um, the actual brand versus just the marketing and advertising side.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_03: And uh that was super fun.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_03: So I got to get get the inner workings of brand and um how that plays out into stores and retail spaces and packaging and product and um from there they dissolved that that department and I had and so then I got laid off, and that was back in 2015.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_03: And so I had always wanted to do my own thing.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_03: I was freelancing on the side that whole time, which was about seven years, and I was actually quite delighted that that happened because it was such a a great cush job.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_03: I just never wanted to take the chance to go out on my own and leave and do my own thing.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_03: But then when that opportunity came, I thought, well, now or never, like stink or swim, this is the time to do it.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_03: And so that threw me into freelancing, which that's when I started um a brand identity business.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_03: And then, and then from there, I just was like, okay, I gotta learn how do I do this business thing.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_03: I would hop into Facebook groups and and business groups and watch YouTube videos.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_03: And then I ended up getting on a YouTube show that Shay was talking about and podcasts.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_03: And so it was just me trying to learn how to freelance and live in the world of this like business space.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_03: And the only real connection I had as far as community was online.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_03: And so that's how um that's how I ended up on in online.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_02: Can I ask you a question?
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_02: This is kind of just my curiosity.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_02: When you got the job at the big company at the time, was it the dream job?
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_02: Like, was it everything that you wanted?
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_03: Um, initially, yeah, when when I interviewed Ford, I got it through an internship.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_03: Like I started off as a an intern there and got it through a portfolio show.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_03: And it was the company that everyone was like, you got to interview with that place.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_03: Like, if you're gonna get any job, get that one.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_03: I was like, okay, sure.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_03: And so that I ended up landing it.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_03: And so it was, in a sense, it was a dream.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_03: Like it was really good pay.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_03: There was amazing people, great opportunity.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_03: But as a as what I realize now, a a strategic thinker and person who needs to know why.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_03: I need to know the why of everything.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_03: Like, why are we doing this thing?
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_03: I wasn't given that there.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_03: And so it was really hard to be a designer and um execute on a lot of jobs just because I wasn't given that um, the why that I needed in order to design.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_03: It worked for some of the designers there and they're they did fine.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_03: But for some reason, I just had a um, I don't know, I was very angsty or something.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_03: A young designer.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_02: I had to say my first job was like, it was like 80 applicants, and I got it, and it was exactly what I thought I wanted.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_02: And then I got into it, and it almost turned into more of like a golden handcuff situation where it's like, oh, actually, this isn't really a great fit for me.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_02: And so in those kind of situations, if you laying off or like, you know, being forced to leave can almost be like a blessing, right?
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_02: Because it like really forces you into what you actually wanted to do in the first place.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_00: I have a question about like your perspective when you shifted from working for the bigger company to kind of going off on your own, just because I've I've heard of different perspectives when this happens to people.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_00: So, like, did you think that starting a business was going to be easy?
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_00: Because you kind of saw, like, oh, like you just create a brand this way and then you do this.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_00: And then it's like the marketing works when you do X, Y, and Z.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_00: Like, very it seems very cut and dry when you're in a business that kind of already has the foundation for you to grow from.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like I've heard of business owners be like, I thought it was gonna be so easy.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_00: Like I was following the steps that I learned that I was implementing in my job, and then I implemented those things in my business, and I was like, Well, what the fuck?
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_00: This is a lot harder than I thought it was gonna be.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what was your perspective and kind of that transition?
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's a fantastic question.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_03: I so I used to give piano lessons back when I was 16 to 22, so college time, and it was my own thing.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_03: Like I didn't work for any sort of music school or anything like that.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_03: And so I came with that mentality of like, oh, I've done this before, like I ran a business, it, you know, business-ish, like, but I I collected payment from people, I did my thing, and um yeah, I had a job all through all through college teaching.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_03: And so I had that mentality of like, I can make this work, like I just need to do what I do well.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_03: And and it was, I don't know if you guys have ever read uh what is it called?
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_03: The emyth, where he talks about a lot of people go into working for themselves because they're like, I can do this thing, like I can design really well.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm just gonna go off my own.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna be my own boss and it's gonna work because I do the craft really well.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_03: And what they don't realize is that those other things of vision casting and making the processes and scaling and marketing, like they don't even think about that because they just think if I build it, they will come.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_03: Like if I do good work, I will get referrals, I will get clients.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_03: And I kind of had that mentality when I started freelancing because I it did work for me as a piano teacher.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_03: I just got overflow students from my cousin who taught.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_03: And from it's, I mean, it was really easy for me to get students that way and um from referrals and and all that.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_03: So I thought, well, that's just how business works.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_03: You do your really good job with what you do, and people will come.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_03: And so I didn't really know much about marketing when I first started.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I just thought, like, I'll just get referrals like I normally do.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_03: And I that got me, I mean, that got me a few years in and I did it, I made it work and people were coming and referrals were coming.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but then I did hit like a plateau where I just felt like, well, if I want this thing to get bigger, I'm gonna have to do something differently.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_03: And that's when I started learning a lot more about marketing and what I how I can position my own business and learning about brand strategy and how I could apply those principles to my own business to grow.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, I just thought, like, oh, I'll just do a good job and people were will come to me, but that link gets you so far, you know.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I think you're right, it'll take you through the first few years, but I think we are really familiar with that point and our audiences too, of like at some point relying on referrals only can feel a little bit like out of control, you know, like you don't have a lot of say, not that we're ever in control of anything really, but like uh there is something to being more intentional about it.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I'm curious, did that so what I know, you started your design agency, which was Marks and Maker, in around the same time or a little later?
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_02: When did like freelance come around?
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, around the same time.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_03: So um I had started, so I was just free-for-all, like freelancing anyone who will pay me to do remotely something I could do.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, I will work for you.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_03: And then I thought maybe I should get a little fork focused on this.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_03: And that's when I started Marks and Maker, which was identity design focused and doing the so the visual part of a brand.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_03: And then I met somebody on a Facebook group.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_03: She became my friend, I'm still friends with her to this day.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_03: And we thought, like, let's do something together, like the met let's make an online course or something.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_03: And I thought, well, people always ask me how to freelance, and I'm making it work so far.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_03: So why not do a course on that?
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_03: Which was called what Shay just had mentioned, it was called freelance.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_03: So that was started around the same time as Marks and Maker, uh, maybe uh a year after I would say 2016.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_03: So I was doing those in tandem.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: Marks and Maker was what your business was called?
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: At the time.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, okay, yeah.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: I just wanted to make sure that I had my facts straight.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um backpedaling just a hot second.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_00: E Myth, is that a book?
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, cool.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna put the link to that in the show notes.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_00: I'm probably gonna go and buy that.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_00: I think that it's like that whole perspective that people jump into this online world.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like especially the online world, because it's not like a restaurant where you need like funding and stuff.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_00: The online world has less of an overhead.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: So I feel like more of us kind of get into that mindset of like, fuck it, I can do anything.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's that's how I got in.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I basically was working for smaller, like family-owned businesses before I started my business.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, if these schmucks can do it, I can fucking do whatever I want.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_00: And so I do think that like there's a little bit of naiveness that comes with it, but also there's a pro to that because I probably wouldn't have taken the leap if I knew how truly complicated and intertwined and like layered that it was.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I just think that it's interesting because like there's so many people out here, even to this day, like starting their online business and doing this stuff.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, you don't realize how layered it is until you fucking realize how layered it is.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I'm so happy I didn't know that.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_03: Because I wouldn't, I would be like, give me another full-time job and let me just complain there that I want to start my own business for another, you know, seven years.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, I'm really glad I didn't know that.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like I hear that consistently among like high achievers, is like there was a certain amount of um naivety that had to go in when you first got started of just like blind belief in yourself and like not really knowing the fool and the tarot, that kind of energy.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um, because yeah, when you get into it and you're having to wear all the hats and there's certainly some down days, it can be pretty challenging.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_02: And so um I I, you know, Melinda, what I think is cool about your story is that like you have your finger on the pulse.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_02: You're talking about like online education products before this was like even really a world, right?
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_02: Like, how did you what you are the person that taught me curiosity is your superpower?
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_02: And I really like your story because there's a lot of really cool moments of like pivot and like you following your curiosity.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_02: So, like, what did that look like?
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_02: You were running Marks and Maker, you had a friend, you guys were kind of like, did you see other courses being made?
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_02: Or like, I don't know, it seems kind of innovative at the time, right?
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I had, I think for maybe a year, at least a year before I got laid off, I had been binge listening to Pat Flynn, Flynn, excuse me, Pat Flynn of Spartan Passive Income.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_03: And I thought that idea of passive income was mind-blowing.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_03: And I was like, what is this thing that I could, you know, of course, the lure of like you don't have to work and you get paid a ton of money, or you do a lot of work up front and you don't have to do a lot of work later.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_03: I liked that idea because I'm always like worried, like, what if I get sick and I can't work a day and then I don't get paid?
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_03: And so I'm always thinking of like, how can I work a ton now so I don't have to work a ton later?
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_03: And that was his whole spiel.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_03: And I had binge listened to him for like a year.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_03: And I was like, I I'm gonna do this.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_03: I would tell my family, I'm like, this is the next thing I'm gonna do.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I would just tell everybody, I'm like, I'm so excited about this.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know what the heck it's gonna be, but I'm gonna do this.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_03: And they're like, okay, well, no, that's cool.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_03: And so then finally, when I was on Pat Flynn's Facebook group and I had asked a question, like a it was a weird, um, unconventional way of going about charging clients.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_03: And um, and everyone was like, that's stupid.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_03: Like they were all getting on me for it.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_03: And this one person on there was like, hey, tell me more about that.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_03: She her curiosity sparked my curiosity about her.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_03: And I was like, we're gonna be friends.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_03: And so then that's when we started talking, and then we just were like, let's do something.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_03: Like, we're learning all this stuff from Pat Flynn.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_03: Like, why don't we just do it and put something into action?
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_03: And so it was interesting, even like recapping that that it was her own curiosity that sparked mine in her, and how I just follow that.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I'm curious about this thing, I'm trying to figure it out.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_03: And I just like you're right, I just follow that and I follow the the flow of where my own curiosity is going, where someone else's is going, so that I can move in that direction.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_03: So I really don't like forcing things to happen.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: Give us the the update, like what what happened with Prelancer?
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_03: So so with Pre-Lance, I um so we created the product before we built an audience, and that was something I I learned a big lesson there.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_03: Like you can do it.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_03: We did sell, um, but it it never like got off the ground and it never it needed a lot of work behind it.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_03: And both of us had our own other thing going on.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_03: I had my business, she had a business, and she got a full-time job.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_03: So we just kept putting that on the back burner, and it was still it was passive income, like it was working for us.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_03: But because we never got on the map and we never like built a community or built an audience, it was very difficult.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_03: And so we knew that if we wanted to make it work, we would have to take a lot more time to invest into that.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_03: And we just both were like, well, we want to do this other stuff, and so uh we shut it down, I think in 2019.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_03: It was around for a few years.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_03: Um, we shut it down in 2019 after we just kept me like putting it off.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_03: Like, are we gonna keep doing this?
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_03: But it taught me a huge lesson because this time around, I still have an online program with the brand strategy bootcamp.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_03: And I didn't build it until I had an audience or at least a hand, like a good amount of people that I could at least pitch the idea to to see if they would even be interested in it and beta test and do all that.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_03: So it was the opposite.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_03: I go was on the map now.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_03: I was starting to get known on podcasts and on YouTube, and so it was so much easier to go and poll people and ask them, like, what's going on with your business right now?
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_03: How can I help you?
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_03: versus trying to build the thing and then sell it.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_03: It's the opposite now, and it's light years different.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_02: Well, and one thing I think is really interesting, I think a lot of us that have been in this world for a while have pivoted quite a bit ourselves.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_02: And like for me, honestly, it's hard.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_02: I look back at that stuff, like, oh, why did I do that?
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_02: Or like, I knew I never wanted that.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_02: Why did I go in that direction?
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_02: But like, I think you and Prelance is a cool example because you having pre-lance and doing pre-lance is what caught Chris's attention, right?
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_02: In the first place.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_02: And that got you on the YouTube series.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_02: So, and that's what I've been reflecting about my own story.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_02: It's like all of these things had to happen because they were steps that like led to an opportunity that I wasn't expecting, which has then led to where I am now.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_02: And so that that kind of piece, I and you am I making that up?
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_02: You've said that to me before, right?
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_02: It was kind of like you having freelance was one of the things that like you take us into like how you got your YouTube fame.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_03: That's so funny that you mentioned that because I totally forgot about that until you said it.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_03: Where he, um, so Christot has he he has a YouTube channel, The Future, he has uh online programs, like bunch of stuff, um, speaker, all that.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_03: And um, I got his attention because I so I was at that the plateau where I thought, I want to grow.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_03: Why am I not getting more clients?
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_03: What's going on?
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_03: And I was under the assumption that if I just did better work and my work was better, that I would get better clients.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_03: And so he was teaching how to, you know, design a really good logo.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_03: And he had all this stuff on Facebook and back when, you know, Facebook was the thing to be on.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_03: And I would do the logo exercises, I'd post my work, and then he would um like give his responses to it and his critique.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_03: And I figured, well, he taught at Art Center, he went to Art Center.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_03: I might as well, like, it's good, it's a good education for free.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_03: Why not just do it?
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm I'm maybe I'll get good clients from that.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_03: It caught his attention because he's like, Your work is too good.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_03: Why are you doing this?
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_03: Like, you don't obviously don't need to be doing this.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_03: What do you have an agency?
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_03: What's going on?
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_03: So I told him, and then I told him about the online um course I also had.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_03: And I remember him saying that he's like, Oh, you have an entrepreneurial bent to you.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_03: You're not just a designer.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_03: Like you are, you have a business head about you because you're trying to do this other program and you're trying to brand it and all this.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_03: And so I think he did say, he did say that.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_03: He's like, Oh, this thing, yeah, I see what you're trying to do here.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and that did catch his attention.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_03: And so he um we jumped on a couple calls and eventually he asked me, he's like, Do you want to be coached for free on YouTube if I could use it as content and um you could get free coaching out of it?
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_03: And I was like, uh, sure.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_02: I guess and no matter who you are, I really recommend, even though it's a little uh day, there's it's still up on YouTube.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_02: Melinda still to this day has people telling her how powerful that series was.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_02: It's very, very like, check it out.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_02: I got so much value out of it, and I know everybody else does.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_02: But as you were talking, I had another light bulb go off.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_02: It's cool to me that um the way you got Chris's attention actually was you shared something in a Facebook group, right?
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_02: Like you guys were doing that.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and it was the same as Pat Flynn.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_02: So it's like your um curiosity led you to make these posts that then have pulled in the right people at the right time, which led to the next thing.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_02: So it's like a really nice example of.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um you allowing yourself to be vulnerable and share new ideas.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_02: And even if 99 people tell you they're whack, you just need one person, right?
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_02: And so, like, bull, I I appreciate that, and I'm inspired by um, I might be a person that like is uh not wanting to put my new ideas out there, but for you and your story, your willingness to put yourself out there and explore new ideas with a bunch of strangers online has really been kind of the the pivotal steps that have led to you moving forward.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_03: I gotta write that down because I didn't notice that until you said it.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_03: So thank you.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_03: I did write down before like what were the big turning points in my life, and a lot of times it was exactly what you're saying is I was willing to like venture out and either share something or just being me, even if it's like I don't have this thing figured out, but I have a question about it.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but you really wrapped that up of as far as like your explore, or you said that how I was exploring ideas out in the open, um, which is very encouraging to hear because I freak out when I have to do stuff like that because I'm so scared of like, what is someone gonna say?
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_03: And I don't want to get a nasty comment.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_03: And oh my gosh.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_02: So thank you for that.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_02: That exactly is what we wanted to ask you.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_02: So you had a bit of viral fame with Chris's series, and your audience screws quite substantially, and I would say like a relatively short amount of time.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_02: How do you get yourself over those?
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_02: Like, what was that like to all of a sudden be speaking to so many people?
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_02: And like, how do you get yourself over those fears of like, what if someone doesn't like it or what if I get a negative comment?
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, it was terrifying.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_03: A couple things.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_03: I remember Chris telling me, because I because I was worried.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_03: I'm like, I don't know how to show up.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_03: Like, what do I do?
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_03: He goes, All you need to be is utterly honest.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_03: And I was like, Oh, I can do that.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_03: I can do that.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_03: He goes, So, whatever you're thinking and feeling, just share it.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_03: Like, whatever's on your mind, whatever you're feeling, just share it.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_03: He goes, Because this is just a bookmark of where you're at right now.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_03: That's it.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_03: You're gonna grow, you're gonna do different stuff, and you're gonna be able to look back on this just as a point in time.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_03: And that doesn't mean that you're stuck there, it doesn't mean you're fixed.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_03: It's just is like, oh, cool.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_03: Look, that's where you were at right then.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_03: And it really helps relieve coaching moment.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_03: It was, yeah.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_03: And it really helped relieve any pressure that I put on myself to show up in a certain way.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_03: And the more I would just show up and be like, I have no idea what you're talking about, or like break character in a in a role play with in sales because I'm like, I literally don't know what to say next.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_03: People could empathize with that and they could be like, Oh my god, I would say the same thing, or it'd ask the same thing.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_03: And so the more I kept showing up as myself, like literally, I have no idea what to say right now, that people it connected with more and more people.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_03: And I started to see that.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_03: And so that's how I got over that part.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_03: But God, there were so many, like, even the fact that hundreds of thousands of people saw some of those videos and like, oh god, that's so embarrassing.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_03: Like some of those, oh my god.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_03: But I just I don't know.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_03: Now looking back, I'm so glad I have years to look back on that.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_03: I'm like, oh, well, I see the impact it's made over the years so much more than just me being embarrassed.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm like, if I can be embarrassed and it helps someone, then cool.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: What a beautiful reminder to all of us.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I I feel like we we talk about it on the podcast so much of like alignment with who you are and be authentic and blah, blah, blah.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of the times it's like, yeah, but I don't know what the fuck that means.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: What do you mean?
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's why like what he said is so powerful in the way that he said it, of just like be utterly honest.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that we just need more of that because it's like, even you're scrolling on social media, TikTok, Instagram, blah, blah, blah.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody's message is so watered down.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody's saying the same shit in different fonts or in like in different colors.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: And it's just like, say what you want to say.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: I've been saying that line a lot.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: Like, even just watching TV out loud and like people are like not saying it.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, why isn't she just saying what she wants to say?
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_00: It's like because we truly are craving that connection.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_00: And like, even with AI coming out, right?
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_00: Like chat GBT or whatever, everybody's like, oh, are you nervous about like SEO and the content and the blah, blah, blah.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, not really, because humans are gonna keep craving deeper connection that's not going anywhere.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: And so when people are like, Well, how do I grow my business?
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_00: How do I show up?
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_00: How do I get myself visible?
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_00: How do I get myself on podcasts?
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_00: A, be honest with yourself and be honest with your people.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: We are craving that, I feel like to like an enormous amount right now.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like, we are just like, because social media just makes us feel so fucking isolated that it's like, how can we create true connection?
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_00: You want to know what the answer is?
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's to be fucking honest.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_00: Like, that's it.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_00: And we need like true, raw honestness, not like this is me.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_00: See, I'm pulling back the curtain.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_00: And like, I really feel this when still watering it down.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, no, let me feel the fire, let me feel it.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_03: And you can tell a difference when someone's like kind of which I commend them for even maybe like peeking open the door because it is terrifying.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_03: It literally is terrifying.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_03: So I get it, and I I really like props to anyone who's even trying to be honest.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I've totally forgot where I was going with that, but um I'll stop right there because I don't know where my mind is going.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_03: I lost my thought.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_02: Well, we know, I know about you, Melinda, that like um what people come to you when they're joining your program or whatever, they're saying exactly what Mariah said was like, you are this little glimpse of like a real human in a desert of like a lack of humanity.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_02: And especially, you know, like in that um sometimes in these crowds online, it's a lot of people who have something to prove.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_02: And it's really easy to kind of like have your guard up and really here's all of my certifications and all my accomplishments and all these cool things.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_02: And all of a sudden we have Melinda getting coached, and she's like, I have no idea what to say here.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_02: I I don't know what to do with this.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_02: And that like hits such a we're all feeling that, but people are not saying it.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_02: And I think like you are always such a breath of fresh air, which is kind of crazy, but like you're right, you can absolutely tell, like a lot of us have these feelings, but it's not always easy.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_02: Everything is really manicured online and like picture perfect.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_02: And I think um, you know, that's what we try to do with this this podcast too, is just like really show like the human side of all of this that's like separated from the posturing.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_02: And and I think to this day, correct me if I'm wrong, you still have people when they join your program, that's what they say.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_02: Like, what's the thing that people say to you most when they're like coming to join BSB?
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, yeah.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_03: They they say stuff like I related to your story, I watched all your stuff, or I just found you.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_03: Usually they they've been following me for years, and this is just so happens to be the right time.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_03: But they're like, You you asked all the questions that I wanted to ask.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, like you get what's going on.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_03: And you're so right about like just the humanity of it all.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_03: And I think we're we're taught to show up in a manicured way, we're taught to to act like you know what's going on and educate your client because you're the one with all the information.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_03: And what I'm just like, but where's the room for us just being who we are and human?
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_03: Because if we in in my field, if if I'm trying to build a brand that connects emotionally from a business, a group of people, a culture of a people that believe something and want to get something out of the world with another group of people that they don't know yet.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_03: So they're customer, emotionally connection there, and I don't show up emotionally and I don't I'm not connected emotionally to myself, then I'm not I mean, at least this is my belief.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not gonna then connect with or attract bus people or founders of businesses that also want to connect emotionally to their clients.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_03: Like I get clients going, the way that I connected with you and what you're saying is the way I want my customers to connect with me.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_03: And so I'm just thinking, like, that why can we just like it's so much easier to practice what we preach than at least for me, even though it's terrifying, than to try to posture and be like, I know everything, like I don't know how to do that.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_03: It's just too scary.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_03: I can't keep that up.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_03: I can't, I don't have the energy to keep that up at all.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel like that's why a lot of people get burned out in the business space, especially when starting out.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, oh fuck, I need to produce.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_00: We were me and Andrew were just watching um a show.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we were watching fucking wrestling.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_00: He turned on WWE, okay.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I used to like WWE when I was little, before I realized that it was fake.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_00: And so I'm watching it and I was he was like, I feel like he's like, there's some grunge missing here.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm watching it and I was like, you know what the issue is is that it's over fucking produced.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's too produced.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_00: It feels like they're acting, there's no authenticity to it.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't, so it's losing the connection with me because even logically it doesn't make sense, and so I feel like that's why a lot of us get burned out is like we're trying to be this overproduced version of ourselves, and then we're burning out, and then we're not getting our message out, then we're not connecting with our people, and it's like shooting ourselves in the foot with 17 different guns.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_03: You know, you when you said overproduced, reminds me of my good friend and uh colleague Nick.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_03: Uh he was telling me, he's like, you know what you are, because you're charmingly underproduced.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_03: And I was like, thank you.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_03: I appreciate that because that takes off the pressure of me trying to show up as anything else.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_03: And so anytime I go to create like a post or something, I remind myself of that.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_03: Like, Melinda, you're charmingly underproduced, so just lean into that.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_03: And so, like, I'll make my my Instagram posts on stories because I'm like too lazy to do anything else.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm like, okay, how can I do this without doing much?
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_03: And how can I keep it now consistent?
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_03: But and I just use stories to do it, and they just pick whatever font is that's there.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_03: Um, because I I get so overwhelmed with trying to be overproduced or get things looking just perfect, and then I get into the perfectionist mode and then and then I lose my message, exactly what you were saying.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_03: That you you try to produce it so much that you're focusing on how it's coming across versus what is you, what are you trying to say?
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_03: What's the message?
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_02: That's so good.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_02: It's making me ping a lot.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_02: Like so, I'm learning about in sales trainings.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_02: We actually like have a subconscious filter that's running and they're teaching you.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_02: And if you're taking sales school, they teach you to like stutter sometimes and to like not be perfect because our brains have this like read if things are too perfect to produce, we don't trust it.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's like too much, they're trying to like pull one over.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_02: So now they're training salespeople to be imperfect, which is hilarious.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_00: Fake stutter, you're dead serious.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, that's something that we're like fixed.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I've heard of her like a typo, like put a typo in your emails that you send to your list.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_03: And I was like, I don't have to try for that.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_02: It just happens naturally for me.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_00: I did not realize that they were teaching.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's wild to me.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_02: And it's it's kind of funny, and it's something that like Linda has in droves and has always done naturally, but it's like be a human, be real.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_02: Stutter in the typos or no, no, no, no.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_02: Just actually, one thing about you I really admire is you are ruthless when it comes to energy management and energy efficiency, and like I need to make this business work for me and who I am as a human.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_02: I need to make my marketing work for me and who I am as a human.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_02: And so, like, one thing I'm curious about is like, you know, I know you had Marks and Maker, you had Prelance, you had a mastermind for a bit.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_02: And then that all eventually led to BSB, which from where I'm standing is you kind of like pulling the pieces together.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I think you learned a lot about yourself and like what you what you had space for, what you didn't have space for, what you had bandwidth for, and what you didn't have bandwidth for.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_02: And now you've had BSB for many years.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_02: And so, and in the online world, that's quite impressive.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_02: So take us there.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_02: Like, how did you design brand strategy bootcamp around like you and how you like to work?
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I like that you brought up the mastermind too, because I think I had that for a couple of years before one or two years before I started the brand strategy bootcamp, which was, yeah, over three years now, which now that I look back on it, like that is a pretty long time to have something just not just running, because we had pre-lance running for a few years, but running and growing and growing into something that I want to continue doing.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_03: And so we started it off um with a beta test.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_03: Cause so I had the audience already.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_03: They were already interested in what I was doing.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_03: I was sending weekly emails for about a year and a half at that point of just telling people in my audience, hey, this is what I'm learning, this is what I'm doing, here's what happened with this client this week, here's uh a project I did not get and a proposal I got turned down.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_03: And I would just tell people like it was like a diary that people could look into.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_03: So it was almost a continuation of the stories that they saw on YouTube, but now they could get really in-depth weekly stuff.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_03: So by you know, a year and a half, I said, like, hey, if I do this thing where I show you my process, would anyone want it?
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_03: And people were like, um, yeah, we've been waiting for this.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_03: Where can I sign up?
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_03: Like, yeah, I have money to give you right now.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_03: I'm like, okay, fine.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_03: All right.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_03: So I ran a beta test, and that was where I was able to see.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_03: I went in thinking, I'm just gonna do a passive income product again.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_03: Like, cool, I'm gonna run another thing.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_03: Um, what I didn't realize was I accidentally uh built a community and people wanted to come back and they wanted to stay and they wanted to grow with us.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_03: And it it was awesome.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_03: It was so amazing.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_03: So during that beta test, I was learning what do they need from me, but then also how much can I give?
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_03: Like, how much can I show up for?
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_03: So then we took that, we um we updated the curriculum and I ran another short uh eight-week sprint.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_03: I think Shay, you were in that one in um the 2020.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_03: And um, so yeah, so we did that.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_03: And so we were able to run through it a couple of times and just like start refining it and iterating.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that I love working like that, like pivoting and iterating and like changing things every time you you do it next.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_03: And then from there, we created it to be um self-study.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_03: And so we just kept iterating it in response to how much energy do I have, how much bandwidth, how much help do I have and resources, and then what do the people need and what could get them to their goal?
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_03: Because I want people to have transformations, I want them to get what they need out of it.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_03: And so I was always balancing like how much can I do?
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_03: And and then what do they need?
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_03: And I was always trying to match that up.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_03: So um, we're still doing that to this day.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_03: But from there, we were able to create pretty good systems that I have an assistant.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_03: Um, we have our things, we know how to run stuff, we know how to check up with people and when to.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_03: And it feels like the business runs very smoothly now because we've been doing it for so many years and we found what works for everyone.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_03: And we still iterate stuff, but the core of how it runs is pretty solid now.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_00: Can you give us a little bit more juice just because I'm not familiar with brand strategy bootcamp?
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what do you teach people in there?
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what is it?
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so people who it and this is it's really helpful for creatives that come from a creative world that were maybe like me, had a story like me or Shay, where we worked for a company and we felt like it was really difficult to execute creative because there was some kind of lack of target to point at, or why are we doing what we're doing, or who are we trying to attract?
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_03: We're missing vital information.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_03: And so um, we attract a lot of creative thinkers, or as I like to call them creative overthinkers who like to analyze, who like to come up with concepts and ideas and um and want to learn brand strategy.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_03: So they might have already delved into that world, they might want to pivot their services into that or add it on to their already creative services.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_03: So maybe design, video, copywriting.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_03: And what makes us different, I would say, and and Shay, you can expand on this too, because you know about this, but from others that teach brand strategy is that we do help people start off with the framework to get them going.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_03: But my goal in the end that they leave with is that they trust themselves because there's so much information out there on like do this framework because this is the right way to do it.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_03: And a lot of our people come in and going, I just want to know I'm doing it right.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_03: I'm like, there is no, I don't believe there is a right way to go about this.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_03: But I'll I'll give you a start of like, here's here's how I did it.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_03: But I want people to end up seeing how different people do it, how different strategists do it, so that they can end up doing their own way and trusting themselves and trusting their intuition.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_03: So we we say, like, learn a framework, learn how to break the framework and then trust your gut.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I want them to leave having that inner confidence in themselves that they can do this without like we, because we're uncertified, without the need of having a badge of someone else's process.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_03: I want them to feel really solid in the process that they've created for themselves in order to help build brands for their clients.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_00: I see why Shay was so excited to have you on the podcast because that aligns so much with just, I mean, not only the podcast, but truly just the way that me and Shay view business specifically.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I want to talk about that uncertified piece, but I want to backtrack just a hot second.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_00: Can you define what the fuck is brand strategy?
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_00: Can you just define like what that even means?
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's so hard to define.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_03: How how I define it, because if you ask different people, they're gonna give you different answers.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_03: But the way um the way I define it is I I just look in the dictionary like, what does strategy mean?
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_03: And it's a it's a plan of action towards a goal.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_03: And so when you when I attach brand to that, then it's a plan of action for a brand to get where it wants to go.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_03: And what a brand wants to do is to connect emotionally to its customer, it wants to mean something more to the customer than a just a product or a service.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_03: Because if you just if it's just a product or a service, you can you're gonna have a lot of competition and you're gonna have to lower your price to compete.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_03: And what we want to do is create meaning that the brand means so much more to the customer than just a product.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_03: There's some kind of emotional attachment, and we go about that by creating a strategy and that everything will align to this strategy, everything will align to this position that we want to hold in someone's mind or the feeling we want to evoke in them.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_03: And the way we go about that is through creating a strategy.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_03: And so every decision, the business decisions or brand decisions are going to filter through this strategy so we show up consistently so that we can hopefully evoke that emotion in someone else.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so that's what that's what we do.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_00: That I'm just laughing to myself because uh I got into the online business space without really working for like a corporate company or like any like formal training in any of this.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_00: So I joke around with Shay.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just like, I don't even know what KPI means half the time.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just like, what the fuck is a KPI?
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's funny because brand strategy, that phrase it's thrown around so often.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I literally in my head just finally had the aha.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_00: It was like, oh, brand strategy and brand identity are different.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_00: I just wanted to slide in here mid-episode and fill you in on some cool things quick.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_00: So we are in our third season of Curiously Guided, and there's nothing that fires us up more than making this podcast and hearing all the positive impacts it's having on our listeners.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_00: Up until this point, this has been a pure passion project.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_00: But we've got bills and expenses for this podcast, y'all.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_00: If you have the means and would love to support us in creating new episodes, feel free to head over to curiouslyguided.com slash support to buy us a coffee.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_02: And if you want even a deeper dive, we're excited to offer.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_02: We're gonna now um start doing some strategy sessions where you get both Mariah and I's brains on your business.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_02: And um, there's nowhere else in the world where you can we Mariah and I both don't work with people in such micro ways.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_02: So this is kind of a cool thing to get both of us looking at your business in kind of like a one-off strategy session.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_02: Just imagine us two and you together diving deeper on your business, marketing sales, and everything in between, um, all while filtering it through the lens of strategy energetics and energetics, which you know is our style.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_02: So if you want to learn more about what working with Mariah and I could look like, head on over to our website, curiously guided.com slash session, to get the details.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you guys so much for hanging out with us.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_02: We appreciate you so, so much.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_02: Now let's get back into the episode.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_00: Like brand when I think brand strategy from my brain, I think of the colors, the fonts, and the logos.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_00: So for the past eight years, I've been like, I don't need a fucking brand strategist, dude.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like, well, a my bit like my brand kind of is me.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_00: And so I'm not saying that I don't need a brand strategist, but like whatever.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_00: I was just aligning brand identity.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like that was the only thing that brand strategy did.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_00: And it's just so funny because like I used to fucking create websites for people, I used to help them pull together their logo and their message and whatever, but it's like I never really put these things into the correct buckets.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_00: So my uh curious mind is very grateful for your definitions.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Melinda.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_02: But honestly, Melinda and you, Mariah, I'm realizing why I like both of you so much.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_02: You're great at taking things that are kind of like have loose definitions and making them really simple.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_02: And so honestly, one of the things that made me sign up for Melinda's program, I saw her, she made a slide that was like, this is brand strategy.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_02: It's like your business is point A, your clients are point B, and the brand strategy is like the plan of action to connect the two.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_02: Like, how do we create emotional connection with your target audience?
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, ah, what a breath of fresh air.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_02: Because creatives are really familiar with this, but like the old way of doing things was like, let's just throw shit at the wall and see what sticks.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_02: Like there was no bigger why or thinking behind these decisions we're making.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_02: Like we're gonna try blue this week and next week we'll do red, you know?
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_02: And it's just like willy-nilly.
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_02: But really, we can be very intentional.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_02: We know some things, we know how to connect the dots, and it's cool if you can have this lens to filter all your decisions through.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_02: Everything gets a lot more crystal clear.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_02: So, like uh that for me, like Melinda was saying earlier, I'm like a thinker, I've got to understand the bigger picture and how all this works.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_02: And so I was very frustrated when I got into web design, and it was just like, let's just guess at this forever, you know, and hopefully we'll end somewhere productive.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_02: And that, like I have my master's degree in strategic planning.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I can't, my brain doesn't work like that, right?
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_02: So it is a really innovative way.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_02: It's cool, like creatives are really grabbing onto it.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_02: But what we're learning is it's a really powerful frame of thinking for almost anybody.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_02: And it's really helped me like get strategic about myself and my career and like what is my zone of genius, and like what am I doing here?
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_02: And and to Melinda's point, I've taken a lot of online programs, as you guys know.
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_02: And what really stuck out to me about her program was it was the first time I had ever heard the message of like, and the right way to do this is your way.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I'm not a guru that's here with like one right way.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_02: Here's the path to success.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_02: Instead, I'm gonna show you an example and then I'm gonna support you as you figure this out for yourself.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_02: And that was so empowering for me.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_02: I've really I remember like one day in the program, Courtney, who works with Linda, said something and like my brain just split open because I was like, oh, I get to make this work for me.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_02: And that's encouraged here.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_02: And actually, that's really the secret sauce to all of this.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_02: Like, that's the skill.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_02: If you can learn that skill of like, okay, I can take all these data points, but at the end of the day, I've got to make it work for me through my own filter.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_02: That that's like the empowered place that I think we really have a lot of success.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_02: Unfortunately, I think a lot of us expect like that spoon feeding, you know, like, just tell me what to do, because that's how we're all raised in school, which I know we talked a lot about on this podcast already.
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_02: But I don't know, that idea of like I could take her framework and make it my own was so liberating to me.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_02: I had never heard anybody else say that, which right now sounds a little wild, but it was like the first person I had heard say, like, trust your curiosity.
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_02: What's your intuition telling you?
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_02: You know, like where are your strengths?
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_02: How could you kind of like tweak this for you?
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_02: Like, oh, cool.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_02: And how how different from what we normally see?
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you know, as you say that, it made me think of how much I was even taught, like, you have a proprietary framework that you need to sell, and you know that it has it brings value.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_03: So teach it just like that and make sure that, and then go fight people, you know, when they've copied your framework.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_03: And I was like, God, I don't like any of that.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I can't handle that.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_03: And it was not not something I believe in because I don't want, like, I do not want someone to copy and paste my framework.
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, they can do it if they want to, but in the end, I really hope that that people make it their own because each of us, I mean, Shay, I know you too.
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_03: Like you, you have a special, you have a secret sauce, you have a way in which your brain works, that you see the world, that you communicate that works for you.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_03: And I see that in people, and I want them to lean into that because that's what's gonna make their brand.
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_03: Shay, that's what's gonna, that's what makes your brand is what you bring to the table, not by you using my process.
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_03: And so I started seeing that in people like, oh, like everyone brings such a unique point of view, which point of view really is brand.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_03: So if we're if I'm teaching someone how to do brand for or branding for their clients, how can I also, in a way, teach them how to do branding for themselves?
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_03: And it's by making it their own.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_03: Like that's what we we do for our clients.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_03: Why can't we do it for ourselves too?
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_02: And that's a really great spot to pivot into.
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_02: Like, let's talk about uncertified.
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_02: So Melinda has created this really cool community through brand strategy bootcamp.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_02: And one of the ideas that is kind of like surfaced is this idea of like, we are uncertified.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_02: And it's kind of like a rebellion against the online business narrative of, you know, you're never enough.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_02: You need a million certifications, you need to have all the badges on your LinkedIn profile, you know, like X, Y, and Z.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_02: And I was in BSV at the beginning, and people towards the beginning, and they're asking Melinda, like, we want to make a badge.
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_02: Can we make a badge?
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_02: And I wanted it too.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_02: I definitely wanted it too.
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_02: But um, I love a good badge.
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_02: Everybody loves a badge, but there's something really powerful about um embracing your uncertifiedness.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_02: So, will you take us there, Melinda?
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_02: Like, where did that idea spawn and like tell us a little bit more about we are uncertified?
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_03: I was talking with Nick, my colleague who works with me in the boot camp.
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_03: So he's a strategist and coach there.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_03: And people were asking us for badges over the course of a year.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_03: And I think out of like, I think unconscious resistance, I was saying no, but also laziness probably.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_03: And um, we got to Christmas and Nick said something like, I really want to do something for the boot campers for Christmas.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_03: And I was joking around.
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_03: I said, Oh, like give him a badge, like a certified badge.
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_03: And he goes, absolutely not, never.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_03: And he was so anti it.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_03: And then I realized I was like, wait a minute, I don't want to do it either.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_03: Is that what we are?
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_03: Is that our position?
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_03: Are we uncertified?
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_03: And then as we kept talking about it, it it just resonated with both of us.
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_03: We're like, yeah, that is us.
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_03: Like, we don't want to be certified.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_03: And also, I don't I have this weird thing, like, it's so odd to me how I could just be like, yeah, I'm gonna certify people in my process.
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_03: It's like gate to me, it would feel like gatekeeping, like I would be a gatekeeper that, like, you can't have this thing until you you, I don't know.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_03: It just felt really, really weird to me.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_03: So, and that's where it started.
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_03: And as we were starting to toy with the idea, we shared it with the group.
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_03: Like, what do you think about this?
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_03: Like, how do you feel about this?
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_03: So, we got a group of people in a room from the boot camp and said, like, hey, here's a manifesto that we wrote about it.
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_03: One of the things being curiosity is your superpower, um, talking about freedom of failure, because I think we cling to these frameworks and cling to certifications because out of fear of failure.
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I want to make sure I've got the right process that has proven results because I want to make sure that I do not fail, which is really noble because of course we want to not fail our clients.
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_03: We want to get them results.
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_03: But if we're relying on this external thing for confidence that we're gonna do a good job, no wonder our imposter syndrome like gets triggered so easily because we are trying to do something that someone else has found success in, but not owned it for ourselves, not truly, truly owned it for ourselves.
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_03: So, this idea of uncertified is like, how can you own what you do?
• 51:41
  SPEAKER_03: How can you own your own ideas?
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_03: How can you own your own process?
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_03: How can you show up as you?
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_03: So, when we got people in a room together and asked them, like, we showed them the manifesto and we're like, what do you think about this idea?
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_03: We just let them talk.
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_03: And it was like 20 minutes of five or six people, and they were just saying, like, oh my gosh, this feels like all the pressure has been taken off.
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_03: This way of thinking and going about the world and work has taken so much pressure off.
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_03: Like, are you saying that I can just show up with what I currently have and create something of value?
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_03: Are you saying that I can just show up with my curiosity?
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_03: And because I can ask really good questions and just be curious and not worry like I'm checking off boxes, that I can do this.
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_03: And they started feeling this internal, at least from what it seemed, that this internal confidence started growing in themselves, that they they were starting to shed all this external layers and approval and certifications.
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_03: Not that they're bad, certifications aren't bad.
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_03: It's just when we have a ton of them and then we still feel like an imposter.
• 52:39
  SPEAKER_03: And I think they can trigger it.
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_03: Our our want for external validation can then trigger our inner imposter because we're trying to be potentially something we're not, or we're trying to make a process work, but we're like, I'm doing the process, but why isn't it working for me?
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_03: Then we start beating ourselves up because we think something's wrong with us when maybe the process just doesn't work for us or our client.
• 52:58
  SPEAKER_03: So I just that's where that's where it came from.
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_03: And as we started showing and telling this idea to the group, it's wild to hear like their stories.
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_03: People started writing.
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_03: I I know Shay, you might have seen this too in the Slack, in our Slack community, these stories of of how they've grown and what they've learned.
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_03: And it's like everyone became a great writer overnight just because they felt okay to be themselves.
• 53:23
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm like, well, where did everyone?
• 53:25
  SPEAKER_03: You guys can write super well, but it was just because they felt free to just be themselves and not be this weird, robotic, overproduced version of themselves that I think this we call it the certified world.
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_03: That the certified world, that whole like overproduced, like do it this way because it's right world.
• 53:41
  SPEAKER_03: And we just shed that and we're like, what if we don't?
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_03: What if we just don't?
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_03: What would happen?
• 53:46
  SPEAKER_03: And people started just showing up as themselves and doing things that were so crazy wild.
• 53:52
  SPEAKER_03: And one of the things we say is that we don't have cookie cutter results.
• 53:57
  SPEAKER_03: Like, because we don't have a cookie cutter process that we want you necessarily to follow, like, of course, again, we give you something to start with, but because we we don't want everyone to stick to the same thing, people have gotten wild results that are completely different.
• 54:09
  SPEAKER_03: Like when someone started an incubator for startups, and other people have written pitch decks for their clients to win millions in investment.
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_03: Like people have started their own businesses, they've done brand strategy, but they use the same, it's the same principles and thinking, but they're able now to apply it in all these different ways because we're not sticking to uh, you know, a rinse and repeat process.
• 54:35
  SPEAKER_00: What a beautiful space you're creating for people.
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_00: Truly, truly.
• 54:39
  SPEAKER_00: And it's I think that especially in the online business space, it's easier to certify people because that's the surface level need, right?
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_00: That's the surface level desire.
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_00: People will be like, hey, I don't feel like I'm enough, let me get certified.
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_00: And somebody's like, everybody's asking me to certify them.
• 54:57
  SPEAKER_00: Let's stay on the surface level and be like, they want to get certified because they want to get certified.
• 55:01
  SPEAKER_00: Let's not get any deeper.
• 55:03
  SPEAKER_00: And so let's certify them.
• 55:04
  SPEAKER_00: And so by giving people the opportunity to see that there is power in being uncertified, I think that's that's so magical, truly.
• 55:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel like magical isn't even the right word.
• 55:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's the only word that's fucking coming to my head right now.
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_00: But especially in the online space where we have the ability to create anything, like things, technology has never been where it's at in our lifetime or in this phase of the world.
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, it's just so easy to scratch that itch without going deeper.
• 55:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's so easy to be like, I don't feel comfortable here.
• 55:45
  SPEAKER_00: In order to feel comfortable, I'm gonna get certified.
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_00: And like the the example that comes to mind for me is we were in me and Shay, this is where we met in a group uh program community.
• 55:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember I was like, Oh, I want to lead a meditation.
• 56:02
  SPEAKER_00: And then it was like, no, but you know what?
• 56:04
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm not certified and I don't, I don't feel like I'm ready to lead a meditation.
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_00: And our friend Aaron was just like, right, if you want to fucking lead the medit, like lead the meditation.
• 56:12
  SPEAKER_00: But me, I was like, nope, I don't understand how that works.
• 56:16
  SPEAKER_00: I don't get it.
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_00: I went over, what is it, Udemy?
• 56:19
  SPEAKER_00: I went to Udemy and bought a meditation certification course, certified myself for$11.99.
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_00: And then I'm reading through these meditation scripts and I'm like, these sound like shit.
• 56:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like, this is what like is certified.
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, now I'm certified by who?
• 56:38
  SPEAKER_00: Also, who is this lady?
• 56:39
  SPEAKER_00: And she just certified me in her shitty scripts.
• 56:41
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, God bless, they work for some people, but to me they felt shitty.
• 56:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm just like, well, now I still don't feel prepared.
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like even a certification where it's like that didn't hit that deeper need or desire that I had that was underneath this surface level need to get certified.
• 56:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I have like a million stories like this because certificate, I'm certified in fucking 975 different things, just because it's like I didn't realize that there was a deeper need for a long time.
• 57:11
  SPEAKER_03: I love that you brought that up because that's so true.
• 57:14
  SPEAKER_03: It's a which, gosh, isn't it?
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_03: It's uh metaphorical too, because you have a certification, it's something you see, you know, you can hold up and see it, and it being external, and it just it it just makes so much sense that that seeing something external like that and it being superficial, like you didn't get any deeper.
• 57:36
  SPEAKER_03: Just that and it makes sense why you would go for that.
• 57:38
  SPEAKER_03: I'm like that too.
• 57:39
  SPEAKER_03: Like I just think, oh, I gotta get another master's degree.
• 57:41
  SPEAKER_03: I don't have a master's degree in the first place, but I'm like, I gotta get one and I gotta get another one, or I gotta get certified in this thing.
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_03: The other thing that that when you said about certifications, what stuck out to me about being surface level is during that time I was on Clubhouse too, and I would scroll through people, and most of the brand strategists would say certified brand strategists, certified brand strategists, and it was like hundreds.
• 58:03
  SPEAKER_03: And I was told by somebody, they said, I asked them, I said, Why do you want to be certified as a brand strategist?
• 58:08
  SPEAKER_03: They go, Well, to position myself from all the others.
• 58:10
  SPEAKER_03: And I was like, Well, that's odd.
• 58:12
  SPEAKER_03: Because last time I scrolled through Clubhouse, everyone said they were a certified brand strategist.
• 58:17
  SPEAKER_03: So now when everyone is certified, is no one certified?
• 58:20
  SPEAKER_03: Like, does it matter at that point if everyone is certified?
• 58:24
  SPEAKER_03: You were not positioned then away from from everyone else.
• 58:27
  SPEAKER_03: And so I jokingly, because we had been like toying with this idea, I'm like, I'm gonna say that I'm uncertified.
• 58:34
  SPEAKER_03: So then I put uncertified brand strategists as you scroll through, you know, the clubhouse people, you'd see that, and I would get people reaching out to me going, I see what you did there.
• 58:42
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I'm like, that is positioning.
• 58:45
  SPEAKER_03: It is you showing up and just sticking out a little more than everybody else to make that connection with someone, you know, a potential customer, another person, emotionally, where they're like, Oh, like I see that, I see what you did there.
• 58:57
  SPEAKER_03: Whereas if everyone is getting certified, it's like it means nothing when everyone has a certification, when they all have the same badge.
• 59:04
  SPEAKER_03: It's so I'm just like, no, I reject that idea.
• 59:08
  SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna show up differently.
• 59:10
  SPEAKER_02: One thing I think is cool about that story, and I didn't really realize is like you didn't feel good about it.
• 59:15
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I think it's really normal what Mariah said.
• 59:18
  SPEAKER_02: People are students are coming to you, they want a badge.
• 59:20
  SPEAKER_02: I think we're all designers, people designed the badge.
• 59:22
  SPEAKER_02: It wasn't even like you had to do any work, but you kind of stayed true to that like feeling, intuition, if you will, that like this isn't right for us.
• 59:31
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't quite know why until Nick came and kind of like pulled the pieces together.
• 59:36
  SPEAKER_02: But I think it's cool.
• 59:37
  SPEAKER_02: You that's kind of what I meant earlier.
• 59:39
  SPEAKER_02: You're helping me pull the pieces together.
• 59:40
  SPEAKER_02: Like, you stay really true to like things that don't feel good.
• 59:44
  SPEAKER_02: You're like, this doesn't feel good, and I can't do it.
• 59:48
  SPEAKER_02: I say, don't tell me what the best practice is, like it doesn't feel good.
• 59:51
  SPEAKER_02: And I told you that before.
• 59:53
  SPEAKER_02: It's really powerful.
• 59:54
  SPEAKER_02: That's really powerful because that's you, you know, like um, we're talking about like a lot of us feel like we need external validation to even do things to lead a meditation.
• 1:00:04
  SPEAKER_02: And really the power, the skill is like being able to internally validate yourself.
• 1:00:08
  SPEAKER_02: So I think it's really powerful that even if you can't quite like logically put it together yet, you're just like, nope, the feeling's not right here.
• 1:00:16
  SPEAKER_02: And even though everybody else is doing it and all your people are asking for it, you still kind of like give it some pause and then turned it into something that's really cool.
• 1:00:24
  SPEAKER_02: So I just think that's neat and I really admire um that about you.
• 1:00:28
  SPEAKER_02: That's cool.
• 1:00:29
  SPEAKER_02: How did how did you get to that point where you're like, I'm trusting myself?
• 1:00:33
  SPEAKER_03: I I don't I think I have like this internal resistance that it it's like you better listen to me because we're not we like I could not shake, you know, we've been work we were working on these these blogs and um and I couldn't get myself to press publish.
• 1:00:48
  SPEAKER_03: Like my body would not do it.
• 1:00:50
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm like, something, something isn't in alignment here with me.
• 1:00:55
  SPEAKER_03: And it's like my my body will not let me do something.
• 1:00:59
  SPEAKER_03: So if it's not in alignment with me, and I've learned like a lot of times I would try to beat myself into doing the thing, but then the actions would never be sustainable.
• 1:01:08
  SPEAKER_03: I would fall off the wagon, I wouldn't be able to keep it up.
• 1:01:11
  SPEAKER_03: And I've learned over time to listen to that internal resistance because it's really it's trying to tell me something, and the more sensitive I am to it, and I listen to it, that I'm just like, you're gonna win anyway, eventually.
• 1:01:23
  SPEAKER_03: So why don't I just like work with you now?
• 1:01:26
  SPEAKER_03: And so as I listen more to my body telling me, like, heck no, like this is not something is not right here for you, then it's showing me who I truly am, what I really value, the types of things I do want to do.
• 1:01:40
  SPEAKER_03: Because the things that everyone's telling me to do, I'm like, they just they don't feel right to me.
• 1:01:45
  SPEAKER_03: And they might work for some people or they might work for me years down the line.
• 1:01:49
  SPEAKER_03: But maybe at this moment, right now, that is not what I need.
• 1:01:52
  SPEAKER_03: I need something else.
• 1:01:53
  SPEAKER_03: And so me listening to that, sorry, my dog's drinking water in the back.
• 1:01:57
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but me learning how to listen to that has been really helpful because then I can sustain actions over a long course of time or a long period of time.
• 1:02:03
  SPEAKER_03: Whereas if I if I try to work against my resistance, I'm working, I'm at war with myself and nothing will be sustainable ever.
• 1:02:14
  SPEAKER_00: That reminds me of uh, yeah, it's of myself, honestly.
• 1:02:18
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I I'm like laughing here because on the episode on the season with Michael, I kind of gave a similar example, except mine is like with emotional release.
• 1:02:29
  SPEAKER_00: If I try to like use my mind to override an emotional release that my body needs right now, I will straight anxiety or I will feel ungrounded or I will get crunchy.
• 1:02:42
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like I have learned where it's like, okay, and just make the space, it'll take an hour, maybe, and just allow the emotions to release.
• 1:02:49
  SPEAKER_00: We can move past it, and then we can go on from there.
• 1:02:52
  SPEAKER_00: So I mean, I think that there is many different ways that our intuition and our body and our mind and all of this kind of speaks to us, but we have to strengthen the muscle, like we say in fucking every episode, of listening to yourself, asking the questions, trusting the nudge, following curiosity.
• 1:03:10
  SPEAKER_00: I gave, I gave you our whole fucking one-liner there.
• 1:03:12
  SPEAKER_00: But it's like it's it all comes back to like, what does this mean for you?
• 1:03:18
  SPEAKER_00: And it's very personal.
• 1:03:20
  SPEAKER_00: We forget how personal our lives truly are.
• 1:03:23
  SPEAKER_00: They are our lives.
• 1:03:25
  SPEAKER_00: We have to be okay with going to sleep with the voices inside of our head, whether we've, whether they're good, whether they're bad, whether they're comfortable, whether they're not.
• 1:03:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like our life is personal to us, and we we have to allow ourselves the space to listen to these inner things.
• 1:03:40
  SPEAKER_00: Otherwise, that's when you wake up, you're 75, and you're just like, wow, where did my life go?
• 1:03:44
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't do anything that felt good.
• 1:03:46
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't do anything that felt like me.
• 1:03:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so that's my rant for the moment.
• 1:03:52
  SPEAKER_00: But a question that I had was when would you say is a good time or a good situation for somebody to get certified?
• 1:04:05
  SPEAKER_03: I would say anything where like lives are at risk, you know, if you need to be like a doctor or there's law or um anything where it's actually required in your field, or like literally you could not get a job unless you were certified.
• 1:04:21
  SPEAKER_03: Those are the first things that come to mind.
• 1:04:23
  SPEAKER_03: Um in creative, I almost think it's weird to certify I think it's weird to certify creativity.
• 1:04:31
  SPEAKER_03: I really do.
• 1:04:32
  SPEAKER_03: Because and I and I look at brand strategy as a creative act.
• 1:04:36
  SPEAKER_03: The way I approach it.
• 1:04:38
  SPEAKER_03: I have heard uh there's total other approaches where like someone said that, you know, he could teach anyone strategy, but he couldn't teach anyone how to design.
• 1:04:46
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm like, that's cool, but I take a creative approach to it.
• 1:04:49
  SPEAKER_03: So because of that, I just don't see how we can certify creative thinking because by its very nature, it's explorative.
• 1:04:57
  SPEAKER_03: It is it is venturing into the unknown, it is a way of thinking, it is a way of being, it is not a process to be to to go through, and not saying that every certification is just a process and that you're handed a process.
• 1:05:10
  SPEAKER_03: Um and I I see it as constant uh growth and change and pivoting.
• 1:05:17
  SPEAKER_03: And so to be certified in something that's creative seems odd to me because by its very nature, creativity is innovative and it is growing and it is changing.
• 1:05:27
  SPEAKER_03: And so if you get a certification at one point, it's like, well, it's gonna be obsolete literally like the next day, if if you're doing something creative.
• 1:05:35
  SPEAKER_03: So um, yeah, so I think it'd be weird in a creative field, but yeah, I love I love that answer.
• 1:05:42
  SPEAKER_00: Uh okay, so situationally, example.
• 1:05:45
  SPEAKER_00: What if I'm sitting here and I'm just like, I can't fucking be a brand strategist because like I don't have a certificate.
• 1:05:52
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Jones in for a certification.
• 1:05:54
  SPEAKER_00: I'm itching for it.
• 1:05:56
  SPEAKER_00: What are the steps that I can start to take?
• 1:06:00
  SPEAKER_00: To get below that maybe surface level need or that surface level desire.
• 1:06:05
  SPEAKER_00: It feels like it feels deeper.
• 1:06:07
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 1:06:08
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's essentially the certification might be a way for us to prove our worth.
• 1:06:11
  SPEAKER_00: Do you have any like suggestions, exercises for people that are like, yeah, but I'm in this moment where it's like, it won't feel good unless I get a certification?
• 1:06:20
  SPEAKER_00: But it's like, what are the things that we can kind of maybe work through that thought process?
• 1:06:25
  SPEAKER_03: This is a great, this is a great question.
• 1:06:27
  SPEAKER_03: The first thing that comes to mind for me is just asking why.
• 1:06:30
  SPEAKER_03: So, why do you want the certification?
• 1:06:32
  SPEAKER_03: What do you feel it would give you?
• 1:06:34
  SPEAKER_03: What would you like?
• 1:06:36
  SPEAKER_03: Why the certification?
• 1:06:37
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, you got past that.
• 1:06:38
  SPEAKER_03: You feel like it would give you a point of um proof or trust.
• 1:06:43
  SPEAKER_03: Actually, I gotta let my dog out.
• 1:06:44
  SPEAKER_03: I'm so sorry.
• 1:06:45
  SPEAKER_03: Give me one second.
• 1:06:46
  SPEAKER_01: What about you're good?
• 1:06:50
  SPEAKER_00: Am I asking too hard of questions?
• 1:06:52
  SPEAKER_00: No, I'm like, okay.
• 1:06:53
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like putting her on the spot.
• 1:06:54
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, oh god, I didn't give you a heads up.
• 1:06:56
  SPEAKER_02: No, no, no.
• 1:06:57
  SPEAKER_02: That's good.
• 1:06:58
  SPEAKER_02: We always like the tangible examples.
• 1:06:59
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's great.
• 1:07:01
  SPEAKER_00: This is a good conversation.
• 1:07:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's great.
• 1:07:05
  SPEAKER_02: All right, let's take a moment for the audio file so I can see this of silence.
• 1:07:11
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 1:07:15
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 1:07:16
  SPEAKER_03: So if you uh want to get below the surface of if you feel like you really need a certification, um, I would ask, I would ask myself why.
• 1:07:25
  SPEAKER_03: So why do you, or if myself, or if it was another person suggesting me suggesting it to them of just keep going deeper of why?
• 1:07:31
  SPEAKER_03: What do you think it's gonna give you?
• 1:07:33
  SPEAKER_03: What are you trying to do?
• 1:07:34
  SPEAKER_03: What um what do you think it's gonna, what message do you feel it's gonna give to the client?
• 1:07:40
  SPEAKER_03: And maybe a certification that is one solution that your mind has come up with, but is there others too?
• 1:07:47
  SPEAKER_03: Um, is it that are you afraid to fail and scared of what's gonna happen if you use a process that's not gonna work?
• 1:07:57
  SPEAKER_03: Are you afraid that you're not gonna create the value that um that you want to for your client and that you want to rely on someone else's?
• 1:08:05
  SPEAKER_00: So I would just kind of like an idiot.
• 1:08:07
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like that's that's one.
• 1:08:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, and I mean, I had this in business probably every fucking step of the way, you know.
• 1:08:13
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just like, I'm trying something new.
• 1:08:16
  SPEAKER_00: It's this fear of being an idiot, a fear of looking like I have no idea what I'm doing.
• 1:08:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel like that's kind of like the structure that a certification can offer of like, you might not feel like you know what you're doing, but here's the checklist.
• 1:08:30
  SPEAKER_00: So you actually know what to do.
• 1:08:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's like the safety net.
• 1:08:35
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's so true.
• 1:08:37
  SPEAKER_03: And that's why I really love, at least for my approach, I like to give examples.
• 1:08:41
  SPEAKER_03: Like I show client examples of me like screwing up in a, you know, or like, oh, that did that question did not land.
• 1:08:47
  SPEAKER_03: Well, like, let's try this one over here.
• 1:08:49
  SPEAKER_03: I want to show real examples of like, here's what it looks like with someone doing it.
• 1:08:55
  SPEAKER_03: You don't have to do it exactly this way, but here's what it looks like as in like you can do, you can do this, you can ask questions.
• 1:09:01
  SPEAKER_03: Because a lot of times the certifications, not always, again, um, but a lot of them are theory.
• 1:09:07
  SPEAKER_03: So they're checklists, they're theory, they're a lot of information.
• 1:09:10
  SPEAKER_03: And we see little to none examples of people actually trying to make it work because a plan is awesome until it meets the enemy.
• 1:09:18
  SPEAKER_03: Or what was, you know, there's that quote about like, cool, everything's awesome until like you actually put it into action and then you see it falls apart because you're dealing with humans and emotions and like things that are weird that happen.
• 1:09:30
  SPEAKER_03: And and then what do you do when your process fails you, when your framework fails you?
• 1:09:36
  SPEAKER_03: And those things um don't always get addressed.
• 1:09:39
  SPEAKER_03: Again, I can't speak for every certification program because there's probably some really great ones out there.
• 1:09:43
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but that's what I've seen at least.
• 1:09:47
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, okay, my mind, I'm sitting over here like, ah, aha moment.
• 1:09:53
  SPEAKER_00: So basically, what we're saying in a nutshell, there's a difference between a certification and a program.
• 1:09:59
  SPEAKER_00: We're not saying don't take a program, don't take any course, try to willy-nilly fucking put things together and Google search and try to formulate out of thin air.
• 1:10:09
  SPEAKER_00: We're not saying don't take any program, don't invest in any education or any training or anything like that.
• 1:10:16
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 1:10:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, of course.
• 1:10:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:10:18
  SPEAKER_03: And and I don't even think certifications are bad.
• 1:10:21
  SPEAKER_03: Like if you want to put a badge on your on your site, go for it.
• 1:10:24
  SPEAKER_03: Like, that's fine.
• 1:10:25
  SPEAKER_03: I again, I think the only issue is when we try to collect those and we still are feeling the emptiness and the low self-esteem and the low self-confidence in our in what we're trying to do and the very things we have certifications in.
• 1:10:39
  SPEAKER_03: And we just keep piling up those certifications, thinking it's gonna fill that confidence hole that we have in us, and it never does.
• 1:10:46
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's the more the issue, and it's not even about, it's not about the certificates.
• 1:10:50
  SPEAKER_03: You know, it's about, I think, the world of, as I call it, the certified world, trying to make us something we're not.
• 1:10:57
  SPEAKER_03: So us trying to pose as something we're not, trying to use someone else's process to trying to be like, see, I'm I'm good, right?
• 1:11:03
  SPEAKER_03: When it's like we feel really cruddy inside, or we don't trust ourselves, we don't trust our process.
• 1:11:08
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's it's more of like a um, how do we deal with our inner critic?
• 1:11:13
  SPEAKER_03: It's more of that than there's not really it's it's not like certification programs or certificates are the villain in this.
• 1:11:20
  SPEAKER_03: It's just what it can potentially do to stoke our inner critic and our inner shame, even.
• 1:11:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:11:26
  SPEAKER_02: And are you using it as a band-aid and not really um attacking the deeper issue that's going on, right?
• 1:11:33
  SPEAKER_02: There's certainly nothing wrong with investing in yourself and your education, and like all of us have done it in one way or another, and it's been right, you know.
• 1:11:42
  SPEAKER_02: So it kind of I like what you said about like as everything, it starts with why, you know, like are you having self-awareness and why are you actually, what are your intentions?
• 1:11:50
  SPEAKER_02: What's the end result that you want?
• 1:11:52
  SPEAKER_02: Are you getting caught up in somebody's launch that's like sparking some FOMO and like kind of intended to poke at your shame and your lack of confidence?
• 1:12:02
  SPEAKER_02: Or is are you doing this because internally you know it's the right thing for you?
• 1:12:06
  SPEAKER_02: And and one thing you both have hinted on, and I want to kind of just like pull together is in this life, we have a lot of access to information.
• 1:12:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, we have really smart brains and we can logically, this is really powerful, but we have emotions and we have bodies and we have intuition.
• 1:12:22
  SPEAKER_02: And are you tapping into all the ways that you can collect wisdom in this world and making a really smart decision?
• 1:12:27
  SPEAKER_02: Because at the end of the day, what you guys have both said is when you're acting in a way that's like coherent or aligned, where your feelings align with the logic and it all feels good, that's the recipe to avoid burnout.
• 1:12:38
  SPEAKER_02: And the opposite is true.
• 1:12:40
  SPEAKER_02: If I'm just info hoarding and like collecting all the things because I don't feel like enough, and I'm creating the business that I logically know will be successful, but I emotionally am not into, I'm gonna get burnt out.
• 1:12:53
  SPEAKER_02: It's not sustainable, it's not something that I can do over the long term.
• 1:12:56
  SPEAKER_02: So it's really like this is where the intuition and the curiosity comes in as like powerful tools.
• 1:13:02
  SPEAKER_02: Cause like Melinda, what I want to ask you is um I certainly resonate with the idea of being an overthinker.
• 1:13:08
  SPEAKER_02: And I've shared on this podcast a lot.
• 1:13:10
  SPEAKER_02: I've tried to solve most of my problems in life, just being this like floating head that like has no body.
• 1:13:15
  SPEAKER_02: And you've actually been doing a lot on social media lately talking to the overthinkers and asking, you know, like, do you resonate with this idea of being an overthinker?
• 1:13:25
  SPEAKER_02: And like, how do you break out of being an overthinker?
• 1:13:28
  SPEAKER_02: And is that a good thing or a bad thing to be an overthinker?
• 1:13:32
  SPEAKER_02: And so I'm kind of sitting here hearing you guys share your examples, and I'm wondering, like, what have you learned about overthinking?
• 1:13:39
  SPEAKER_02: And uh what what uh you've done some surveys recently, like what have been the big takeaways?
• 1:13:44
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, yeah.
• 1:13:45
  SPEAKER_03: Well, our people and who come to me are uh define themselves as overthinkers or that they're working on it in some way, shape, or form.
• 1:13:53
  SPEAKER_03: I did a poll in our Slack community and and I said, Do you consider yourself an overthinker?
• 1:13:58
  SPEAKER_03: And nobody clicked the almost never parts.
• 1:14:02
  SPEAKER_03: So at one point in time.
• 1:14:03
  SPEAKER_03: So either sometimes or always, or they're working on it, um, consider themselves an overthinker.
• 1:14:08
  SPEAKER_03: And I thought, well, it's because I am, and that's how I show up in the world.
• 1:14:13
  SPEAKER_03: And I I share my struggles of of info hoarding and like, you know, buying courses and not going through them, bookmarking thousands of articles, saving the posts, all the, you know, all the classic info hoarding, or um getting stuck in in action because I'm overthinking what I'm about to do.
• 1:14:32
  SPEAKER_03: And um, yeah, I've been exploring this whole thing of how do how do I talk to myself in that and how do I see myself, because I want to be a creative thinker, like in my ideal world and how I want to show up, I want to be a creative thinker, and I believe I am.
• 1:14:46
  SPEAKER_03: And just when when I um it's almost like when it goes bad is when I start getting into overthinking mode, or when I fear taking the next step, or when I fear failing, or when there's something in me that's just not feeling right, I tend to see myself in a negative light.
• 1:15:04
  SPEAKER_03: I start spinning my wheels, I start overthinking my decisions, and I don't just take the action, I don't just take the plunge.
• 1:15:10
  SPEAKER_03: And so I've been exploring this just the thought process of a creative thinker who gets stuck in overthinking that it's like this dual, I don't know, it's like two sides to the same coin of like thinker, like you know, we ever are our creative thinker cells right now, or can flip into the overthinker where it goes a little sour and where we have to like, okay, how do we how do we get back on track?
• 1:15:33
  SPEAKER_03: How do we get back into action mode and exploratory mode?
• 1:15:36
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so I've been yeah, exploring in that whole.
• 1:15:39
  SPEAKER_03: So, what's that?
• 1:15:40
  SPEAKER_02: I know that that is something you wrestle with personally, of like getting caught in overthinking and like not taking the action you want to take.
• 1:15:47
  SPEAKER_02: And and you're the person that I see then take the action.
• 1:15:50
  SPEAKER_02: So I can see that you are overcoming it, quote unquote, in some way.
• 1:15:54
  SPEAKER_02: What's that look like for you?
• 1:15:56
  SPEAKER_02: Like, how do you notice yourself caught there and how do you get yourself out of it?
• 1:16:00
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and that's what I've been writing a lot about.
• 1:16:02
  SPEAKER_03: I've because I've been trying to catch what is my thought process to help me get out of it.
• 1:16:06
  SPEAKER_03: And that's when I share posts.
• 1:16:08
  SPEAKER_03: So I like think through like what did help me just take this action?
• 1:16:11
  SPEAKER_03: And a lot of it that I've come to realize after writing just a handful of posts is that it's how I see myself.
• 1:16:18
  SPEAKER_03: It's changing and reframing how I see myself.
• 1:16:21
  SPEAKER_03: Because if I see myself as not enough, lacking something, um, a big thing for me is not having enough, whether that is enough energy, enough resources, enough confidence, enough of anything, then I start getting slow and not doing something.
• 1:16:40
  SPEAKER_03: But if I can reframe, I can ask myself some reflective questions to help me see that I actually do have something to work with, whatever it may be.
• 1:16:50
  SPEAKER_03: I can then start taking action.
• 1:16:51
  SPEAKER_03: So something that I discovered last year when I was journaling, I had I looked at my journal and I just saw a lot of like, I can't do X because I don't have Y.
• 1:17:01
  SPEAKER_03: And I just kept seeing this repeated pattern.
• 1:17:04
  SPEAKER_03: And so I kept, I was seeing like, oh, that's my internal narrative.
• 1:17:06
  SPEAKER_03: Like I say I can't do something, so I'm gonna stop action because I don't have X, Y, or Z.
• 1:17:13
  SPEAKER_03: So I was like, well, that's really interesting.
• 1:17:15
  SPEAKER_03: So if that's what I'm telling myself, what do I want to tell myself?
• 1:17:18
  SPEAKER_03: And I switched it to I have insert the blank, whatever it may be, so I can insert the blank.
• 1:17:26
  SPEAKER_03: So if I want to, if there's an action that I want to take and I'm seeing that I'm not, I will ask myself, what is it that you have right now?
• 1:17:35
  SPEAKER_03: What are you grateful for?
• 1:17:36
  SPEAKER_03: What do you have to work with?
• 1:17:37
  SPEAKER_03: So I can see that I'm not starting from zero.
• 1:17:39
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not completely, you know, void of resources and energy and thoughts and ideas.
• 1:17:46
  SPEAKER_03: I have something.
• 1:17:47
  SPEAKER_03: There's something to work with.
• 1:17:48
  SPEAKER_03: What do I have?
• 1:17:49
  SPEAKER_03: It could be literally anything, it could be a friend.
• 1:17:51
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 1:17:51
  SPEAKER_03: Could be a note I wrote myself.
• 1:17:53
  SPEAKER_03: What do you have?
• 1:17:54
  SPEAKER_03: So I would identify something I have, and then I'm like, okay, so what can you do with it?
• 1:17:59
  SPEAKER_03: What can you do with what you have?
• 1:18:00
  SPEAKER_03: Because if my internal narrative was constantly, you don't have enough.
• 1:18:04
  SPEAKER_03: Well, let's switch it and let's actually look for what I do have.
• 1:18:08
  SPEAKER_03: And when I started noticing what I do have to work with, I was able to actually take the action.
• 1:18:12
  SPEAKER_03: So that was one of the ways where um it's for me, it's reframing it's seeing myself differently.
• 1:18:19
  SPEAKER_03: It's seeing myself as having and not lacking.
• 1:18:22
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and there's this quote that said, if you want to make, I think it's by an aggregate, was it a farmer, some farmer, he said.
• 1:18:30
  SPEAKER_03: I'll find the name.
• 1:18:31
  SPEAKER_03: Um he said, if you want to make small change, change what you do.
• 1:18:35
  SPEAKER_03: But if you want to make big change, change how you see.
• 1:18:39
  SPEAKER_03: And that really stuck with me because it's true when I see things differently, when I see myself differently, I take different action if I see the world differently.
• 1:18:47
  SPEAKER_03: I can't just change my actions and it change.
• 1:18:49
  SPEAKER_03: I know, like it said, like, just do it and it'll change everything in you.
• 1:18:54
  SPEAKER_03: I'm like, no, like I need to see the world differently.
• 1:18:58
  SPEAKER_03: I need to see myself differently, and then my actions can get in alignment with that.
• 1:19:03
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but my thinking doesn't always get in alignment with my actions if my actions go first.
• 1:19:10
  SPEAKER_02: That's powerful mic drop shit, Melinda.
• 1:19:12
  SPEAKER_02: That's really cool because what you're saying is um, you know, I think a lot of I think internal narrative is one of the most powerful tools that like we don't really talk about very much.
• 1:19:24
  SPEAKER_02: And like how much of us are like stuck in a prison with like these old scripts and stories in our heads.
• 1:19:30
  SPEAKER_02: And what you're saying is cool of like the first step is just acknowledging and noticing what am I telling myself is possible and is not possible because a lot of us don't even realize we have these programs firing off, we picked up somewhere along the way in life, and we don't even realize we're shutting ourselves down before we even start.
• 1:19:50
  SPEAKER_02: So I think just even having awareness around what are the stories I'm telling myself is huge, number one.
• 1:19:58
  SPEAKER_02: And then you're number two, take it a step farther.
• 1:20:01
  SPEAKER_02: How can I rewrite those stories and start to reroute these uh neural pathways that are firing off to where I see myself in a more gracious light, a place with more gratitude, more freedom, more love, which we all know is the powerful energetic place to be where you can really do some cool stuff.
• 1:20:19
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that process that you just outlined is really, really powerful in a lot of ways.
• 1:20:25
  SPEAKER_02: But being starting to be more aware of that like internal narrative, what's going on on the inside.
• 1:20:30
  SPEAKER_02: And honestly, you and Nick really helped me.
• 1:20:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um Mariah and I talk about growth mindset on this podcast, but Carol Dweck's book, Growth Mindset, really, really helped me get out of that and step into honestly, Melinda.
• 1:20:47
  SPEAKER_02: You have a lot of great book recommendations now that I'm reflecting back.
• 1:20:50
  SPEAKER_02: But would you mind sharing with us like what impact has that growth mindset had on you?
• 1:20:55
  SPEAKER_02: And like how do you use that um as you're making decisions?
• 1:21:00
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, and I have to let my daughter one more time.
• 1:21:02
  SPEAKER_03: I'm so sorry.
• 1:21:04
  SPEAKER_03: There's another one.
• 1:21:13
  SPEAKER_02: We're finally getting to talk about our favorite book with a source for me.
• 1:21:18
  SPEAKER_02: The favorite one?
• 1:21:19
  SPEAKER_02: Our favorite book with a source.
• 1:21:24
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 1:21:25
  SPEAKER_02: You're good.
• 1:21:26
  SPEAKER_02: All right, tell us about mindset and growth mindset and how that's affected you.
• 1:21:33
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that book was huge.
• 1:21:35
  SPEAKER_03: So mindset by by Carol Dwick.
• 1:21:37
  SPEAKER_03: Just seeing how seeing how the fixed mindset being like, okay, I've got to make this perfect.
• 1:21:45
  SPEAKER_03: This is gonna define me, whatever it is.
• 1:21:47
  SPEAKER_03: Or um that I think how she describes it in the book is that our abilities are fixed.
• 1:21:54
  SPEAKER_03: So we're born with the talent or we're not, we're born with the intellect, or we're not.
• 1:21:59
  SPEAKER_03: And she's making the argument, like, no, we can grow, we can grow beyond what we think we can.
• 1:22:06
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and and that was huge because I think growing up, I thought I didn't want to do things I didn't think I would be good at.
• 1:22:16
  SPEAKER_03: So I think that's the fixed mindset at work.
• 1:22:18
  SPEAKER_03: It's like, well, you don't do it unless you can be good at it.
• 1:22:21
  SPEAKER_03: And it's like, well, no, you do things because you're gonna grow.
• 1:22:24
  SPEAKER_03: Like you need to practice them and you can grow from there.
• 1:22:27
  SPEAKER_03: And so that book really um brought to light things that it's like things I already kind of was toying with and thinking about, but she really she I mean, she had like scientific studies behind it too, and stories that she shares in the book, but it really um helped me identify when I was getting into the fixed mindset and like fixed mindset, think of like your inner critic, the thing that tells you don't do that thing, it's too scary, or um like or you're not enough, you know, any of that.
• 1:22:57
  SPEAKER_03: And I think in the book, she even says at the end to name your inner, your inner fixed mindset, give it a name so that you can start detaching from it and not identifying with that negative voice that keeps talking to you.
• 1:23:09
  SPEAKER_03: So um, Nick and I, we both have names, like mine's Mr.
• 1:23:13
  SPEAKER_03: Brick, because I it feels like a ton of bricks on my shoulders and I cannot move forward in action or a brick wall in front of me.
• 1:23:21
  SPEAKER_03: And I want to move forward in action.
• 1:23:22
  SPEAKER_03: I want to actually build things.
• 1:23:24
  SPEAKER_03: And Mr.
• 1:23:25
  SPEAKER_03: Brick will like tell me not to do something or like why I shouldn't, or why I'm not good enough.
• 1:23:29
  SPEAKER_03: And so if I say, like, oh gosh, Mr.
• 1:23:31
  SPEAKER_03: Brick has been saying like XYZ to me today, then I can detach myself from what he's saying and it doesn't feel like me, and then I can emotionally just connect and look at it and look at what he's saying and hear it and feel it, but not own it.
• 1:23:45
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that was a huge thing that I got from the book was just naming that negative voice in my head and having compassion on him and like he wants to protect me, he doesn't want me to fail, he doesn't want me to hurt.
• 1:23:59
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm like, thank you, Mr.
• 1:24:00
  SPEAKER_03: Brick, that's very kind of you.
• 1:24:01
  SPEAKER_03: However, we are still going to do this thing and you're a brick, so I'm gonna use you to build with.
• 1:24:07
  SPEAKER_03: So that's what I was thinking.
• 1:24:08
  SPEAKER_03: Like, if I get stuck in a creative process, I start writing about it, like about my thinking, about what's going on, because I'm like, Mr.
• 1:24:15
  SPEAKER_03: Brick, we are putting you into work.
• 1:24:17
  SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna tell people what you're saying to me and I'm gonna expose you in a nice way, but still trying to give that fixed mindset like compassion because really it's just scared.
• 1:24:27
  SPEAKER_03: It's scared of being humiliated, it's scared of being seen, it's scared of not being enough, it's scared to compare itself to others and not and show up is not enough.
• 1:24:38
  SPEAKER_03: Like I think that at least for me, that's online showing up is that I'm scared of like being exposed that I'm not enough and I'm not competent or whatever.
• 1:24:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:24:47
  SPEAKER_02: I think that act of personifying the inner narrative, the inner critic is really powerful.
• 1:24:53
  SPEAKER_02: If you're struggling to kind of like, where do I get started with this?
• 1:24:56
  SPEAKER_02: I have no idea.
• 1:24:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um, for me, it was like turning that critic into a character was it made it easier for me to separate.
• 1:25:03
  SPEAKER_02: Like, this is not myself.
• 1:25:05
  SPEAKER_02: This is honestly, it's it's a survival mechanism.
• 1:25:09
  SPEAKER_02: It's a lot of just like your base instincts that are really scared of the unknown firing off.
• 1:25:14
  SPEAKER_02: And so I am happy that you took it to the next level of can we separate from it?
• 1:25:19
  SPEAKER_02: Can we see it in honesty?
• 1:25:21
  SPEAKER_02: And then the third layer is can we have compassion for it?
• 1:25:24
  SPEAKER_02: You know, like this is a piece of us, it's here in the car with us.
• 1:25:27
  SPEAKER_02: We're never gonna be able to slay it.
• 1:25:29
  SPEAKER_02: I hate all that language.
• 1:25:30
  SPEAKER_02: Y'all have heard me rant about that before, but how can we befriend it and hug it and give it some love and still do the fucking thing anyway?
• 1:25:37
  SPEAKER_02: Because I think that's where a lot of people get stuck is like uh the fear can overwhelm and shut us down.
• 1:25:45
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's where the fixed mindset comes in.
• 1:25:47
  SPEAKER_02: And and honestly, um, if you're thinking about what to invest in and if you need a certification, it might be helpful to tap into like, am I doing this from a fixed mindset place that I don't have enough?
• 1:25:57
  SPEAKER_02: Or am I doing this from a growth mindset place that like I can do anything I want and I'm gonna get in here and fail and fail and fail.
• 1:26:02
  SPEAKER_02: And that's a wonderful thing because that means I'm getting better.
• 1:26:05
  SPEAKER_02: And so for me, a lot, it's funny, I'm saying this out loud now it all sounds so basic, but like I came into your program with such a fixed mindset of like, I'm good at this, I am not good at this.
• 1:26:18
  SPEAKER_02: Like, and there's no changing that.
• 1:26:20
  SPEAKER_02: And so it was so liberating for me to be like, oh, actually, I can practice anything.
• 1:26:25
  SPEAKER_02: This is all muscles, that these are all reps, and I what do I want?
• 1:26:29
  SPEAKER_02: It it was like this sense of I like to use like freedom or lightness, like a load off my shoulders.
• 1:26:36
  SPEAKER_02: The world is my oyster.
• 1:26:37
  SPEAKER_02: Mariah talks a lot about like being limitless, but I don't know.
• 1:26:41
  SPEAKER_02: For some reason, that book really helped me um get clear on some of those programs and scripts in the inner the inner dialogue that was firing off in my head.
• 1:26:50
  SPEAKER_02: And uh it sounds really simple, but turn it into a character and how can you befriend that character?
• 1:26:56
  SPEAKER_02: And that that can be really powerful.
• 1:26:59
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you know, you just reminded me of like the idea of I can do that.
• 1:27:03
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, I can practice that skill if I want to.
• 1:27:06
  SPEAKER_03: I just got a voice memo from Nick this morning, how he was saying, like, oh my God, I just had this epiphany and it came out of nowhere.
• 1:27:13
  SPEAKER_03: And because we always are talking about this kind of stuff and the growth mindset and what we're learning during the day, or like, oh my God, I just realized I do this thing.
• 1:27:21
  SPEAKER_03: And um, he said how he used to like what is it, stained glass window, like or artists.
• 1:27:27
  SPEAKER_03: And he always thought that was amazing.
• 1:27:29
  SPEAKER_03: And then he realized, he's like, wait a minute.
• 1:27:32
  SPEAKER_03: If I wanted to do that, I I I could go do that.
• 1:27:35
  SPEAKER_03: I could go develop that skill right now.
• 1:27:37
  SPEAKER_03: I could and if if I want to become a fantastic tennis player, I I can go do that literally right now.
• 1:27:44
  SPEAKER_03: It was like this thing of we put like, oh, well, my time has passed.
• 1:27:47
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I should have developed those skills when I was younger.
• 1:27:51
  SPEAKER_03: I even have had that where, like, oh, I this the what got me into doing those logo studies that Chris was posting was because I saw my cousin.
• 1:28:00
  SPEAKER_03: Who's a concept artist, learn that he has been drawing his entire life.
• 1:28:04
  SPEAKER_03: He is amazing at what he does.
• 1:28:06
  SPEAKER_03: And I saw him taking a class from somebody online and developing his skill.
• 1:28:11
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm like, oh my God, he's doing so good.
• 1:28:13
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I could, I could do that too.
• 1:28:16
  SPEAKER_03: And I had this weird, I realized at that moment that I had this weird limit on myself that, oh, well, you're already graduated.
• 1:28:23
  SPEAKER_03: So you should know what you're doing now.
• 1:28:25
  SPEAKER_03: So you should have those skills.
• 1:28:26
  SPEAKER_03: You're done.
• 1:28:27
  SPEAKER_03: You're done growing.
• 1:28:28
  SPEAKER_03: Now you just need to perform.
• 1:28:29
  SPEAKER_03: You're in performance mode now for the rest of your life until you die or retire.
• 1:28:33
  SPEAKER_03: So go for it.
• 1:28:34
  SPEAKER_03: And I realized at that moment, like, no, I'm still like I can still grow.
• 1:28:38
  SPEAKER_03: I can still learn.
• 1:28:39
  SPEAKER_03: And I that was my shift and to be like, oh, I'm always going to be growing and learning.
• 1:28:43
  SPEAKER_03: It's things we tell ourselves, we tell each other, but when you actually experience it, like, no, you can do this thing.
• 1:28:48
  SPEAKER_03: This new skill you can develop if you'd like to.
• 1:28:51
  SPEAKER_03: It just like Nick, like, oh, I I can do stained glass windows if I wanted to learn how to do that.
• 1:28:57
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, really?
• 1:28:58
  SPEAKER_03: Like it it seems so obvious, but when you experience it from living in a fixed mindset for so long, of like, well, I missed my chance.
• 1:29:05
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I guess I have to do this thing now and just perform at this.
• 1:29:09
  SPEAKER_03: I think it that that also there's a misconception there of like the fixed mindset is like, okay, we're done now.
• 1:29:15
  SPEAKER_03: Like, this is the limit to now we just need to show up and perform it.
• 1:29:21
  SPEAKER_03: That's no, we're always going to be growing and learning, or we can always be growing and learning.
• 1:29:26
  SPEAKER_00: I remember the big aha moments for I also read that book.
• 1:29:30
  SPEAKER_00: I think I was probably like 21 when I read that book.
• 1:29:34
  SPEAKER_00: I was I was pretty young diving into this stuff.
• 1:29:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember learning about it, and then I remember looking around, and I was like, every single human I know has a fixed mindset.
• 1:29:45
  SPEAKER_00: Of course I have a fixed mindset.
• 1:29:47
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like it wasn't something that was talked about.
• 1:29:51
  SPEAKER_00: Like it was just, it was what it was because it was.
• 1:29:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like you went to school to be a lawyer and now you practice law.
• 1:29:57
  SPEAKER_00: Like you did this and like now you do that.
• 1:29:59
  SPEAKER_00: And there was just a linear progression.
• 1:30:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember being like, huh, and just thinking about like myself as a child.
• 1:30:06
  SPEAKER_00: I've always been really creative and whatever.
• 1:30:09
  SPEAKER_00: But it's like I remember I got myself into a rut, even as young as like seven or eight, of being like, Well, I can't do that.
• 1:30:16
  SPEAKER_00: I can't play softball because I'm not good at it.
• 1:30:20
  SPEAKER_00: And my mom never pushed me to, hey, you can be fucking bad at this.
• 1:30:24
  SPEAKER_00: Nobody gives a shit.
• 1:30:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like, nobody gives a shit if you're bad.
• 1:30:28
  SPEAKER_00: And so, like, growing up until in my 20s in college, it's like I truly really stayed in my lane of like, what am I good at?
• 1:30:37
  SPEAKER_00: Because I didn't realize that there was something else.
• 1:30:39
  SPEAKER_00: And like when you know and when you understand like the fixed mindset and the growth mindset, it's like, oh yeah, duh.
• 1:30:44
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's how we all innovate and that's how we grow and that's how we evolve.
• 1:30:48
  SPEAKER_00: But like when you grow up in a community, in a culture, in a neighborhood, in a family that's so fixed, you there is no lens of possibility or opportunity.
• 1:31:02
  SPEAKER_00: So, like this, it feels like a subtle shift, but a big aha, like it can be fucking life-changing, truly.
• 1:31:08
  SPEAKER_00: And like I think also getting in the habit of catching that narrator in your head, it's fucking hard.
• 1:31:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's hard.
• 1:31:15
  SPEAKER_00: And like, because like that is the voice in our head, we live with that day to day.
• 1:31:19
  SPEAKER_00: And so the example that you mentioned, I just want to put a spotlight on it.
• 1:31:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you read back your journals.
• 1:31:25
  SPEAKER_00: That is a way to be able to see what headspace you were in and the patterns that you're in, because your pattern, like you're in your patterns all the time.
• 1:31:34
  SPEAKER_00: We always have patterns.
• 1:31:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's how the fucking brain, it's how we're able to move and think and do and have energy to, I don't know, do things, whatever.
• 1:31:43
  SPEAKER_00: But it's like it's so hard to be able to detach, and even it's like, okay, I give it a name, but I don't know when name is speaking.
• 1:31:51
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like even giving it a name sometimes, you're just like, yeah, but I don't, I don't know.
• 1:31:56
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 1:31:57
  SPEAKER_00: I can't pull it back because I don't know that that is my ego trying to protect me because it feels like me.
• 1:32:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's so close.
• 1:32:05
  SPEAKER_00: So I just really love that example of looking back in your journals because, like, that truly is a really good way to start to be able to see what's happening in your head after it's already passed.
• 1:32:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's why like there's so much wisdom in hindsight.
• 1:32:22
  SPEAKER_02: I love that.
• 1:32:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, one thing that always happens with Melinda is we like fall into a time warp.
• 1:32:29
  SPEAKER_02: So I can't believe how much time has passed already.
• 1:32:33
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, thank you.
• 1:32:34
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, Mariah just shared like one of her big takeaways for Melinda, which I think is really awesome.
• 1:32:39
  SPEAKER_02: The other, I'll share mine.
• 1:32:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um, one kind of theme we've talked about a bit in the past two seasons is like um, I don't necessarily think like jealousy is a bad word.
• 1:32:49
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it's cool there how you mentioned, you know, like I saw my cousin doing something and I wanted it, and I went for that.
• 1:32:57
  SPEAKER_02: And in jealousy, I think is cool because it shows you like what you want.
• 1:33:01
  SPEAKER_02: And in a world where it's kind of hard to know, like, what do I actually want versus what like the world is telling me?
• 1:33:06
  SPEAKER_02: I think it might be kind of cool to use and jealousy, and to me, curiosity are like kind of two sides of the same coin, but like where where do you see something that you want and like why aren't you going for it?
• 1:33:18
  SPEAKER_02: And like kind of start there.
• 1:33:19
  SPEAKER_02: And um, I I for me, I've been paying really close attention to that lately and kind of like asking myself why, getting to the deeper levels.
• 1:33:26
  SPEAKER_02: But I think that um I don't know, we we didn't really hit on it much in this episode, but one point I want to make before we sign off is like a lot of us overthinkers and creatives, we kind of vilify our curiosity and our jealousies and our wants.
• 1:33:41
  SPEAKER_02: And like um, we tell ourselves we can't have things.
• 1:33:45
  SPEAKER_02: And what I hope y'all take away from this is like maybe instead use it as an invitation, you know, like really, um, what are you telling yourself you can't do right now?
• 1:33:55
  SPEAKER_02: And can you go a little deeper than that?
• 1:33:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I think I've been feeling this a lot lately, um, just being like an older millennial.
• 1:34:02
  SPEAKER_02: And I feel like, you know, like the internet game is like maybe passing me by and really like again, fixed mindset, like we're all told we're too old or we're not enough this, we're not enough that in some way.
• 1:34:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and it's all bullshit, right?
• 1:34:17
  SPEAKER_02: It's all we all can do whatever we want.
• 1:34:19
  SPEAKER_02: Like the this life is really ours for the taking.
• 1:34:22
  SPEAKER_02: And so, like, I'm walking away from this episode, just like really feeling limitless myself.
• 1:34:26
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like wondering where I am holding my own self back.
• 1:34:29
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so these are always going to be like layers of the onion that we keep unpeeling.
• 1:34:34
  SPEAKER_02: But um, I appreciate y'all being on this journey with us.
• 1:34:36
  SPEAKER_02: And so, with that, let's dive in.
• 1:34:38
  SPEAKER_02: You know, Melinda, we have a final question that we like to ask people.
• 1:34:41
  SPEAKER_02: We've talked a lot about your curiosity and how it's guided you in a lot of different ways.
• 1:34:46
  SPEAKER_02: Right now, what is sparking your curiosity?
• 1:34:49
  SPEAKER_02: Where are you finding yourself getting lost in rabbit holes?
• 1:34:53
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, the the rabbit hole itself of info hoarding.
• 1:34:57
  SPEAKER_03: I am curious of my own drive to collect information, to hide behind it, to use it as a protective measure against action, but also how to potentially turn it into something that's good and to not vilify it.
• 1:35:14
  SPEAKER_03: And so that's what I've been curious about of like about the rabbit holes that I do go down and why I go down them and what does it say about maybe what I what what my inner self is trying to say?
• 1:35:26
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I I think my piles of information are actually telling me something of what I what I want to create out in the world.
• 1:35:33
  SPEAKER_03: So that's what I've been curious about lately.
• 1:35:36
  SPEAKER_00: I love the the pros and the cons of that.
• 1:35:39
  SPEAKER_00: It's very, it's very relatable to me as well.
• 1:35:42
  SPEAKER_00: I like that one.
• 1:35:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then will you let our listeners know where they can find you, where they can connect with you, where can they learn more about the brand strategy boot camp, all of that fun stuff.
• 1:35:54
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, if they go to my website, melindalivsey.com, and then I hang out on Instagram, Melinda Livzy there and LinkedIn mainly at the moment.
• 1:36:04
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, cool.
• 1:36:05
  SPEAKER_00: So we will put all of those links in the show notes below.
• 1:36:10
  SPEAKER_00: And if you guys enjoyed this episode, feel free to share it with somebody that you think would love it.
• 1:36:15
  SPEAKER_00: Screenshot, share it on social media, let us know that you're listening, let us know if something popped out to you.
• 1:36:21
  SPEAKER_00: We love connecting with you guys.
• 1:36:23
  SPEAKER_02: And as always, thank you so much for listening and for your continued support.
• 1:36:27
  SPEAKER_02: If you haven't yet, subscribe to the podcast and leave us a review so we can all continue to grow together.
• 1:36:32
  SPEAKER_02: And until next time, remember that you, we've talked about this a lot this episode, you truly do have the power to create whatever the hell you want.
• 1:36:40
  SPEAKER_02: Follow the nudge, ask questions, and let curiosity guide the way.
• 1:36:44
  SPEAKER_02: We'll see you in the next episode.