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Kim Philby: Greatest Liar of All Time? · Stuff You Should Know

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.
• 0:11
  Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's
• 0:13
  Speaker 2: Chuck and Jerry's here too, and this is the podcast.
• 0:16
  Speaker 2: As just mentioned, we call it Stuff you Should Do.
• 0:19
  Speaker 2: And by the way, we should say to any new listeners,
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: we're not saying you should already know this stuff, so
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: don't be hostile toward us about that. We're saying we
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: think you should know this because it's so interesting we
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: want to tell you about it.
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we could have changed the name of the show
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: to Things that you might find interesting, but then again
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: you might not as well, But that didn't have a ring.
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there's no implied dummy in the title of our podcast.
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: Okay, we're the dummies.
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: So I'll tell you somebody who wasn't a dummy as
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: far as it comes to being a world class liar,
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: maybe England's greatest liar ever. It was a spy from
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: the World War Two beginning early Cold War era named
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  Speaker 2: Harold Kim Philby. And if that name rings a bell,
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: well to sit back and enjoy this episode on a
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: British spy. If you don't know who Kim Philby is,
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: sit back, and enjoy this episode on a British Spy.
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: Your voice is going up like you were going to
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: say something else. Is that it?
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: I just wanted to replicate it perfectly.
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: So big thanks to Dave who helped us with this.
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: But Dave also wanted us to shout out, and we
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: want to shout out. A book by Ben McIntyre, A
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: Spy among Friends Colon Kim Philby and The Great Betrayal,
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: and also a mini series that I have not watched
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: that I think I probably will now as six parter
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: on Amazon MGM called A Spy among Friends from twenty
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: twenty three, starring the winsome guy Pierce Oh Yeah, as
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: Kim Philby or Harold Adrian Russell Philby as He was
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: born in India in nineteen twelve because his dad was
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: a colonialist. I can never say that word, right.
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: I think he nailed it, Philby Kim. He was nicknamed
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: Kim because there was a Rudyard Kipling's story, a book
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: I think about a street urchin raised on the streets
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: of India who becomes a spy.
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  Speaker 1: Isn't that crazy?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah? It really is.
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  Speaker 1: Because he got this nickname as a kid, like before
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: he knew he was going to be a spy.
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  Speaker 2: Right, He wasn't out in there like we're I call
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: you Kim from now on. He Yeah, he grew up
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: to be a spy. And he was nicknamed after a
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: boy who grew up to be a spy, so it
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: is pretty interesting. But everyone called him Kim Philby. And
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: he was born in India nineteen twelve. His dad was
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: a colonialist, like you said, his sympathies actually lay with India.
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: He eventually quit the service and went to become a
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: I think an advisor to the King of Saudi Arabia. Eventually,
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: oh wow.
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: Well, at any rate, he was born to a well
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: old family. His parents were gone a lot. He was
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: raised by his Indian nanny. He went to Cambridge, so
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: he was sort of on that track of not you know,
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: royalty or anything, but probably aristocracy, you could say. And
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: when he went to Cambridge it was the early nineteen thirties,
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: pretty rocky time. The Great Depression was happening, and that's
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: when the fascists, especially in Germany and Italy, saw their
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: sort of opportunity when people were wrecked by poverty, to
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: step in and start controlling things.
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: Right. So communism became a thing among young Cambridge and
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: intellectuals at the time, and communism was viewed as the
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: antidote to fascism, which was on the rise at the
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: time in the late thirties. And the reason I was, like, why,
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: I don't understand that, because my geopolitics is seen through
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: the view of an eighties American kid who lived through
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: the end of the Cold War. Yeah, but communist is
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: all about class and social equality. One of the defining
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: characteristics of fascism is a rigid hierarchy. So of course
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: the aristocracy of Great Britain would be fully on board
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: with a kind of ideology that said, yes, you're at
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: the top, you deserve to be at the top, you
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: should stay at the top. And so they aristocracy at
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: the time definitely had sympathies with the Nazis because of
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: their fascist leanings, and that did not sit well with
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: these young Cambridge intellectuals who had bought fully into communism
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: as the ideology to spread throughout the world.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, and it was especially a way for you know,
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: kids to rebel against what their parents loved, which is
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: a classic thing that kids and teenagers and young adults do.
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: And in this case, these like you said, these young
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: Cambridge elites were like, hey, communism is where it's at.
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: Forget this. I was about to say patriarchy, but it
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: was really you know, everybody, the upper class altogether. And
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: you know, as far as Philby is concerned, he didn't.
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: He wasn't out there calling for a revolution or anything
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  Speaker 1: and let's go burn it down. He apparently never officially
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: joined the Communist Party, but he was. He was a
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: Communist through and through, like up until the very end.
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: He was very committed to it, something he did not
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: grow out of like his parents. I probably hoped he would.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, out of all of the Soviet spies in
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: the UK at the time, he was probably the most
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: committed Communists.
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and as you'll see, there were plenty of chances
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: to go a different way, and he never did.
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: No for sure. So he was at Cambridge and he
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: met with a professor. And with this professor he said, hey,
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: I really want to help communism, you know, spread throughout
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: the world. What can I do? What as a young
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: aristocratic Cambridge grad due to help communism? And this professor said,
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: I so in Vienna right now, they're they're battling the
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: commun and his comrades are battling a dictator named Engelbert Dolphus,
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: and Dolphus is a fascist dictator, and you can go
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: to Austria and help. I don't know how, but just
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: go to Austria and figure it out. And he did.
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he was like, oh, I was thinking a letter
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: campaign or something, but but sure, I'll go to Austria
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: and find a ruthless dictator. While he was there, he
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: went to be in a lovely town, by the way,
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: one of my favorites in Europe. He fell in love
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: with a woman named Alice Lizzie Coleman, who was another
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: young communist. They became a co revolutionaries and they you know,
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: hooked up also in you know, in a more romantic way,
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: hugging and kissing that kind of thing. Okay, and Dolphus,
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: the fascist dictator, said all right, we got to get
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: rid of these communists and we will do so by
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: whatever means we need to. And that Lizzy woman was
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: on that list. She was pretty well known or you know,
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: well known as far as the insider fascist dictators go.
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: And they said, all right, we got to get out
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: of here. They realized the writing was on the wall,
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: so they got married, they fled to England and in
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: London he finally Kim Philby got in touch with a
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  Speaker 1: real Soviet operative at a secret meeting in Regent Park
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: that was arranged by one of Litzi's communist friends, and
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: it was game time. It was on from that point forward.
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So this real life communist was a Czech academic
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: who was undercover for the Soviets as basically a spymaster.
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: His name was Arnold Deutsch, or at least that's what
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: he told people. I guess it's where Germany comes up
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: in this one. His code name and what he used
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: to communicate with people was auto Otto. Apparently it was
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: huge insecurity. He would make Philby take like three taxis
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: at least before they would meet. And this guy was like, okay,
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: I can do something with you. You're a like an
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: aristocratic You're a member of the upper crust of British society,
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: and right now, the upper crust of British society is
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: if you're from them, you have total trust across the board.
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: Let's take advantage of that.
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he was pretty ideal for that position. But he
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: was like, how good of an actor are you though?
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: Because that's what really matters if you're going to get
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: into this. And Philby said, well, let's just say this
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: one day, Guy Pierce is going to play me in
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: a streaming series. And he was like, what does that mean?
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: That makes no sense at all. He said, Okay, I'm
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: a pretty good actor, and a good actor will eventually
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: play me. He's really got to fall into this part,
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: you know, in such a perfect way that obviously no
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: one's going to find out. That's the ultimate goal of
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: being a mole is to be a great liar, and
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: he was really really good at it. One of the
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: things he had to do, though, was find a job
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: to you know, as cover. And he's like, the perfect
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: job for this would be a journalist.
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah. But one other thing he had to do, too
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: was he had to he had to become, at least outwardly,
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: what he despised the most, which was the quintessential English aristocrat.
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Right wing yep, right wing.
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: Fascist sympathies that aren't particularly well hidden, super conservative, very
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: loyal to the British crown. Yeah, essentially everything you think
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: of when you think of like a guy wearing a
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: bowler hat in the forties in Great Britain carrying an
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: umbrella on his forearm, right, Like, he did not like
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: these people, and yet he now entered their world where
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: he would stay essentially as a mole for years to come.
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: And I mean it's I don't really sympathize with him
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: because of who he was and what a trader he was. Yeah,
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: but I do sympathize with him in the idea of
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: having to live your life like that around people you
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: despise and have to pretend like you like them for
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: years on end, or you are one of them for
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: years on end. That had to be that had to
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: definitely be rough on the old soul, you know.
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, here's the thing I never thought about.
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: Seen so many stories on this kind of thing. We've
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: read so many books and seen so many movies about
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: double agents and people you know, lying for cover. But
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: I always think about, like, oh, yeah, to live that
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: lie and to keep that up, that must be hard.
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: Until we did this episode, I never thought about how
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: hard that would be to just like be sleeping with
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: the enemy essentially full time, and like all your friends,
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: all your social circle, everything that comes out of your mouth,
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: like has to be the thing that you hate the most.
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: Right It's incredible. I never considered how hard that would be.
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: Right, So you said that he was told he needed
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: a job, Yes, and he became a journalist.
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: Jo, you are in al That's m right.
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: That was his job. And the reason why it was
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: such a great profession for him is that you can
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: go all over the world as a journalist and you're
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: just like, yeah, I'm covering the running of the bowl,
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: so here i am. Or this Olympics is amazing, isn't it.
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Octoberfest, let's do it right.
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: Nobody's gonna question why you're in this country because you're
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: covering something. That's one thing. Another thing, too, is if
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: you are covering like elite people, you're kind of considered
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: a member of the club just in and of itself. Right,
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: So people let their guard down around you because you're
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: an aristocrat, you're one of them. They know you won't
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: say the things that they are saying off the record.
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: You won't print those in the paper, but you could
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: sell them to the Soviets.
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: That's exactly right. So he gathered all sorts of off
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: the record secrets and all this stuff from interviewing people
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: at the highest echelons of power that they were sharing
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: with him because he was one of them. He was
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: just turning right around and giving it to the Soviets,
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: like you said, So his career as a journalist to
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: start out was it was a great choice.
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's just further reinforced the more he does
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: it because he's not printing that stuff. So they're like, oh,
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: Philby can really be trusted because it's taking off the
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: record stuff and he's not printing it. This guy's great,
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: that's right. So to sort of bulk up his cover,
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: he got this job at the Anglo German Trade Gazette,
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: which was a British newspaper, but it was at least
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: in part financed by the Nazis and it was about
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: just trying to get trade relations between Britain and Journey.
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: It was like a friendly newspaper between them. Yeah, so
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: he had to you know, play this role of sort
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: of quasi Nazi sympathizer and lose all of his friends
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: in his life because all of his friends were these
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: you know, sort of fellow ideologically aligned people, fellow leftists.
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: Maybe not all of them communists, but he wasn't hanging
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: out with these people until he started doing this this
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: right wing sort of Nazi sympathizing group.
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he essentially pulled a Christopher Hitchins and just completely
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: transformed from one way to the other. So at the
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: time civil war broke out, this is in the thirties
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: as well in Spain. Have you ever seen the orphanage? Yes,
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: very creepy in the time of the Spanish Civil War.
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that was good.
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it was. On one hand you had the Fascists
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: led by Francisco Franco and they were fighting the Communists
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: led by Franco Francisco, and he was supposed to be
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: a war reporter for the London Times, and I mean
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: he was writing for the Times, but really what he
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: was doing was working his way into the good graces
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: of the fascists so he could spy on them for
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: the Soviets, who would then in turn tell what agents
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: to do what to undermine the Fascist side of the
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: civil war.
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: Right, do you think there was ever any confusion about
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: those two leaders?
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: Oh, I made that.
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: I thought you did very subtle though, thank you. I
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: was trying to sniff you off the case, but in
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: a way that made me look as less least dumb
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: as possible.
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: Well, that's why you're the best all around boy.
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: Oh man, stop it, so we should mention, you know,
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: sort of neither here nor there. But he and Lizzy
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: had been divorced by this time. He was married four
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: times total, but he would do things like strike up
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: affairs in order to get into the places he needed
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: to be. In this case, he had an affair with
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: an older woman Franco's inner circle. But while he was there,
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: his car was bombed essentially not a car bombing, but
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: just hit by a shelling during a bombing raid, and
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: all three passengers in the car that were not named
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: Kim Philby died and he just had minor injuries. So
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: he was actually awarded the Red Cross of Military Merit
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: from Franco himself gave him this award.
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah. One thing I saw real quick is that Kim
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: Philby received the highest military honor possible from the Spanish,
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: the Soviets, and the English, all while here was a
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: spy for the USSR.
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: Wow, that's crazy.
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: So he gained so much access, like he was friendly
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: with the highest levels of the fascist side of the
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: Spanish government that the Soviets were like, we could just
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: have him off Franco at this point, and they decided like,
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: now we're just going to use up a valuable asset,
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: and frankly, I'm not sure that that guy could do it. Yeah,
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: so they didn't have him kill Franco, but he really
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: proved his worth by infiltrating the fascists in the Spanish
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: Civil War. And by this time, well should we take
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: a break and then come back and talk about his
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: next round of stuff? We got a break, Okay, Well
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: we'll be right back to talk about his next round
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: of stuff. So, Chuck I was saying that Philby proved
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: himself a very loyal communist spy and an effective one too.
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: So Auto is like, hey, man, you got any friends,
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: and Philby says, yes, yes I do. As a matter
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: of fact, I have two very close friends from my
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: Cambridge days who I think would fit the bill perfectly.
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: One of them was named Donald McClain. The other was
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: Guy Burgess Burgess. I'm not sure which way he said it.
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: I also saw a lot of conflicting information that Guy
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: Burgess recruited Philby, and YadA ya YadA, But I think
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: that the way that we've said it is correct.
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: I think so so he how he gets Don McLain
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: not American pie Don McLain. He gets Donald McLain on
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: the on the dole is he goes to dinner and
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: he sort of hints around, you know, like hey, you know,
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: what do you what do you think? And McLain was like,
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: I'm all in, buddy this, I've been waiting on this.
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: So he he had to do the same thing Philby did, was,
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: you know, like leave all his sort of leftist friends
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: behind publicly come out in favor of fascism. And his
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: other buddy, Guy Burgess, saw this happening and was like, Hey,
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: what's going on here, dude? This is really fishy. I
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: want in on this, Like I see what's happening here.
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: And Burgess was not. I think McLain was a pretty
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: decent fit for a spy, but Burgess was very loud,
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: apparently a pretty obnoxious guy, and he was a barely
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: closeted gay man at a time where homosexuality was illegal.
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: It was a crime in England. All that to say
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: he was not a real sort of low key, under
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: the radar, you'll be a good spy kind of guy.
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: But the Soviets are like he's fine.
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's crazy, Like he was a loose cannon if
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: there ever was one, but they still recruited him anyway.
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and they became known as the Cambridge three. I
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: think eventually there would be a Cambridge five in total though, right.
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there were two others that were kind of brought on,
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: one of which was this lone wolf who was kind
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: of acting independently. But what they had in common is
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: they'd all five gone to Cambridge or instructed at Cambridge.
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: Right, and ended up being Soviet spies.
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that part two. Yeah, So when World War
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: two broke out, the Soviets were like, oh, this is great.
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: We're allied with England, you know, nominally, and we've got
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: this guy on the inside. Let's have him join military intelligence.
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: And just like everything else, military intelligence was run by
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: the upper crust, the aristocracy of Great Britain at the time.
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: And so just like he went to that lefty professor
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: at Cambridge and said what can I do to help
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: the Communist cause, this spy version of Kim Philby went
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: to the British aristocracy and said what can I do
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: to help the Crown? I would really love to get
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: into intelligence. They're like, well, come aboard to I six.
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: We don't need to vet you. We'll look at your
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: background and see if there's anything that pops up. Nothing
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: did great, come aboard, here's every secret that we have
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: in the entire nation.
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Like later on they literally asked, like about the vetting,
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: and like how could this get past you? And they're like, yeah,
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: he came to the right family and we knew the
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: same people basically, Yeah, and this is how it was
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: back then. By the way, look for a little preview.
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: We got an episode on I six coming out at
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: some point. Nice looking forward to that. But he's all
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: of a sudden working for six is in the perfect
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: position to be a double agent because of where he worked,
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: but also because he was I mean, this is why
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: they get Guy Peers to play this guy. He was
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: really really charming guy apparently just very smart, very quick witted.
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: Apparently he would just make you feel like you're the
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: only person in the room. People really really loved him
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: and thereby trusted him very quickly. And a legendary drinker.
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: He could drink anyone under the table. And if you're
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: in a cocktail party and you get people a little
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: tipsy on whiskey, on that fine Scotch or British whiskey.
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: They're gonna start spilling some secrets, and he's like Karen
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: Allen in the First Raiders. You know, she could drink
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: that guy under the table. So don't get into a
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: drinking contest with Kim Philby or Karen Allen.
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: No. I think that Dave put it best though, when
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: he really brought it home for me, at least to
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: describe how charming this guy was. He said, Dave compared
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: him to peak Hugh Grant. I almost web my pants
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: when I read that. I was like, God, that's charming.
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: That's how disarmed I was. I almost just peeded.
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: I haven't seen heretic yet. It looks good, though, I heard.
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: It's pretty good.
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: Oh have you seen talk to me?
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: What's that?
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: It's another A twenty four horror movie? Hmmm?
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: Maybe what's it about?
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: I don't want to give it away. It's about where
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: you can you can hold this this mummified hand and
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: speak to the spirit world. You've not seen it. It's Australian.
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: I have not seen that.
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: Oh, it's so good.
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: I remember that.
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: You're going to love it.
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: Do you've become quite a horror movie guy over the
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: past years.
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah?
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: No, I mean you like all kinds of stuff, right,
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: does you? Is you mean into these scary movies?
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: Oh no, she'll she'll hang out on the couch with
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: me and watch them. But she's not. She doesn't watch them,
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: although I think she would even like talk to me.
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: It's just so well done and there's only a few
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: parts that are like scary scary. Yeah, it's just a
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: really well thought out horror movie. It's really cool. It's good.
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: Well, and you're a You got an A twenty four
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: tattoo on your lower back, so I know you're an adherent.
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah. They really are great.
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: All right, where were we? We were at Hugh Grant
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: and we were talking about the drinking. All right, I
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: guess let's talk about what was going on then with
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: the Cambridge Three. This is a very successful well, all
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: the Soviet spies combined were really successful, including the Cambridge Three.
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: They over the course of their work, they sent the
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: Soviets more than ten thousand documents during World War two.
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: Just World War two.
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, and like the D Day invasion, advance notice
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: stuff about the Manhattan Project, like some really big fish.
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: They were getting fed this information and sometimes this would
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: you know, this would lead to people dying because of
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: information shared by Philby and others.
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so, Kim Philby. He wrote a memoir as We'll
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: see you later on, but he showed zero remorse essentially
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: for any of the lives that he that he cost essentially.
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: One of the really good examples of this is some
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: members of the Catholic resistance in Germany who were fighting
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: the Nazis during World War Two. They approached the British
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: Intelligence we should say six. I don't know if we said,
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: that's the British equivalent of the CIA and America.
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, is it military based? Because you said military intelligence.
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: I thought they were just like the CIA. Yeah.
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: I don't know if their military intelligence or not.
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: I guess we'll find out when we do our am
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: I six episode.
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: Exactly great point. But they came to MI I six,
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: Some of these resistance leaders came to I six and
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: they said, hey, we want to make friends with you
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: because we think the Allies are going to win. We're
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: fighting to make sure the Allies win, and afterward we
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: want to build a Christian democratic Germany that's going to
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: be super friendly with the West. So let's work together
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: after the war. Okay. See TATA for now and Philby,
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: as a member of I six, found out about this,
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: told the Soviets and basically the names and addresses of
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: these people, and the Soviets went and killed them all
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: because the Soviets wanted Germany to be Communists afterward, not
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: open and democratic and Christian. So after the war, when
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: I six went looking for these Catholic resistance leaders to
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: help rebuild Germany, they were gone. They'd all been killed
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: during the war thanks to Kim Philby.
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so that's just one example of many where lives
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: were lost due to, you know, his intelligence gathering. After
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: World War Two, this is when obviously the Americans and
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: the Brits sort of turned toward the Soviet Union and
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: the threat of Communism as the main enemy, and you know,
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: kind of pre Cold War stuff. And you would think
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: that this would be a tough thing all of a sudden,
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: because Philby is really the enemy. But he was so
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: good at what he did. It was he just had
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: an inside position, so it was not easier, but all
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: of a sudden he was like he was really in
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: the mix.
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and he was so good at lying. He was
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: so good at playing this part sleeping with the enemy,
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: like you said year after year after year that even
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: when the Soviets were the enemy, now like he just
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: he just coasted right through it like it was nothing,
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: like there had been no change whatsoever for him. So
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: he actually had a stroke of genius in nineteen forty four.
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: He said, Hey, we really need to start worrying about
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: these Soviets. I'm worried that there's Soviet spies and six
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: and I think we need to create a counterintelligence section
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: for six dedicated to rooting out Soviet spies. Oh, man,
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: do you know the wavos? It takes I know, man
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: to suggest something like that when you're a Soviet spy,
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: But at the same time, it really just shows Yeah,
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: that was his mo. He would be like, you can't
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: possibly suspect me because I'm the one suggesting this. That's
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: what he did. And they were like, great, idea, let's
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: get somebody not you to do this, and they hired
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: a guy named Felix Cowgil.
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, get that old boy Cowgill on it. And
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: Philby was like, Oh, that didn't go down like I
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: wanted because I really need to head up this organization
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: and not have this guy Cowgil. All of a sudden
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: sniffing down my neck. So he starts a whisper campaign
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: to sort of get Cowgill out of there. That's exactly
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: what happened. And within a few months Philby is standing there,
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: you know, at the ready to take over, a Soviet
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: spy all of a sudden, in charge of the Soviet
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: counterintelligence for six. So McIntyre in his book, this is
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: a pretty fun quote. He said the Fox was not
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: merely guarding the hen house, but building it, running it,
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: assessing its strengths and frailties, and planning its future construction.
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: He sounded like Hankazaria and mystery men.
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: This spins great. I'll take that.
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: I think that's a great quote too. He definitely yelds it.
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: So this is what But that's the reality now, Like
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: Kim Philby is the in charge of rooting out Soviet spies,
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: yet he's a Soviet spy for six and yeah, so
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: things are going along smoothly for I don't know, a
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: couple of months, and then there's this really big deal
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: that happens. There's a defector who worked at the Soviet
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: embassy in Istanbul. His name was Konstantin Volkov, and Volkov
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: went to the British Embassy in Istambul. He said, hey, neighbor,
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: get this. I know the names of dozens of Soviet
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: spies embedded in British intelligence all throughout, and I will
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: tell you their names if you give me fifty thousand
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: dollars and they're like fifty thousand dollars in twenty twenty
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: five money. He goes, no, no, no, fifty thousand dollars in
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: nineteen forty four money. That's a lot more. If you
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: give me that and you help me and my wife
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: defect to the West, I'll tell you all these people's names.
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: And here's a little here's a little bit of sugar
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: on top to get you interested. One of these spies
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: is the head of a section of the British counter
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: Espionage Service in London.
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: They said, oh boy, that's quite a Sweetenah. So Philby
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: hears about this and instead of like, you know, freaking out,
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: he was like, no, no, no, I've got this. He said,
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: you know what this this? If it's that inside, we
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: need to get an interview with this guy. Somebody needs
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: to go interrogate Bolkov and how about I do that?
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: And they're like cow only because no, exactly, and he said,
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: you know, I should do this, and they, you know,
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: they trusted him so much at this point, they're like, yeah, sure,
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: like who better to send? Right, He goes to Istanbul
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: to meet with Volkov, but he never showed up because
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: the Russians took care of that, right.
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he told the KGB that there was this Volkov
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: defector in Istanbul and they needed to take care of him.
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: So he looks totally innocent and legit like he's the
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: head of I six Soviet counter espionage department, so it
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: makes sense that he would go interview him one but
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: it also just makes him look so innocent. Why would
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: you go all the way over there to meet with
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: somebody who knows not going to be there. Of course
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: he's innocent. He went to the Stambul to meet the guy.
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: The guy just disappeared, that's all. And it was just
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: another master stroke like that. I'm just I mean, I
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: don't take my hat off the liars very often, but
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: rats guy, definitely, he deserves a hat tip for coming
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: up with this this stuff.
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: I mean, he was always one step ahead of things,
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: so much so that you know, the Soviets eventually thought
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: that he might be like a triple agent or double
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: crossing them or something, because you know, they were like,
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: how's this guy moved up so quickly and all of
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: a sudden he's running the Department six. That's to like,
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: it's pretty genius, comrade, but it's all very suspicious to them,
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: and they were a pretty paranoid bunch at that point.
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: They probably still are, and they always wondered what the
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: deal was, but like his information always checked out, it
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: was always golden, so they really had no choice but
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: to go along with things. He would eventually go to America.
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: He was assigned I six chief and DC. So if
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: he was like a charming guy in England with that
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: accent and his drinking ability, he was like, just multiply
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: that times one hundred in the United States as far
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: as the charm factor.
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: Goes, right exactly. So yet again he's done some amazing maneuvering.
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: He's in DC's hanging out with the most connected embedded
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: members of the CIA, the FBI diplomatic circuit from the
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: State Department, Like everybody who's anyone in DC this guy's
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: partying with. And you said that he was well known
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: as it's just like a he had a hollow leg.
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: He was just such an amazing drinker. He could drink
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: as well as anybody, like maryon from Where's the Lost
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: Arc You said, Apparently he could get so drunk that
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: he couldn't engage in a conversation, but he was always
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: listening and he could still type up a pretty great
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: report the next day for his handlers based on the
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: stuff he'd overheard while he was blackout drunk. Essentially, so
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: this really jibed with America. Like the Americans at the time,
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: they loved drinking like that, just like the Bricks, maybe
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: even more so. So he would just drink with everybody. Okay,
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: but close to tide at least you can agree. So
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: he would just drink with everybody. That's how he became
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: a trusted confidant. Apparently, also he was a genuine friend,
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: Like he met some people along the way that he
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: really became friends with, and I think later on he
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: said that he missed some of them. But that combination
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: of being one of them in the intelligence community, being
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: able to drink as well as anybody so he can
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: have fun at cocktail parts, being charming, and then also
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: being in a legit friend, he really got his hooks
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: into people over in the US as well.
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. One of the guys he really butted
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: up with. His name was James Angleton. He was a
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: counterintelligence chief of the CIA for two decades, so good
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: guy to know. They had already met apparently from when
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: they were younger in England, so they were you know,
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: hooked up again and became really really close, and so
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: he thinks they're like really good friends. So he's just
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: spelling everything to Philby because they're buddies, right. One example
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: is he told Philby about a military operation called Operation Valuable,
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: where the Brits and the Americans were going to overthrow
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: the dictator of Albania to keep them from joining the
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: Soviet block, and they were training exiles to sort of
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: mount this fight, you know, against against their dictator. And
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: Philby passes this along to Moscow, and before you know it,
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: these Albanian authorities are like ready and waiting when this
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: uprising happens and just slaughtered all these foreign trained exiles
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: and basically quashed everything. The revolution was no more.
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: Right, and so there's a whole bunch of heads also
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: on Philby as well from that.
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we should probably take another break.
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, let's take a break, all right.
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: We'll come back and talk about well Kim Philby right
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: after this. All right, so we're back here for act three.
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: It is now nineteen forty six, and we're going to
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: talk a little bit about something called the Venona decryption.
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: That was you know, everyone had their secret codes that
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: they used to encrypt things in those days, and they
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: still do. But nineteen forty six, American cryptologists cracked that
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: code that the Soviets were using, the Venona decryption, and
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: they said, hey, let's just not use this going forward.
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: Let's go back and dig through all the stuff for
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: World War Two and see if we can get anything
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: out of that. And in nineteen fifty they decoded a
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: message from the past that identified a Soviet spy. No,
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: not Yuri, It's not wild. I was about to ruin
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: no Way out a movie that came out like thirty
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: something years ago, but I'm not going to do that.
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: I'll just say Uri because it's a really good movie
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: and you should see it if you haven't. But they
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: identified as Soviet spy named Homer who worked at the
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: British Embassy in DC in nineteen forty four, and Philby
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: was like, oh man, I'm reading this thing. Homer's McLean.
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: It's my friend, right and if they get him, then
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: my cover's blown. And you know, right now he's in
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: a good spot because everyone thinks he's like me, just
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: a straight up Cambridge boy who's doing God's work for
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: the crown. But more evidence started coming out, and another
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: decoded message came out saying that Homer's wife was pregnant
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: and staying with her mother in New York. And he
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: was like, it's really obvious it's you now, So I
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: gotta kick this thing into action.
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: Yes, so I guess as an example of what kind
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: of friend he was, he took it upon himself to
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: get in touch with the KGB and be like, McLean's blown.
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: He needs to get out of here. But just McLean,
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: Because if just McLean had to flee and it seemed
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: like it was just McLean who was the spy, he
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: could weather that pretty well. He could be like, I
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: can't believe this. I was as duped as you were.
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: If his other friend, the other member of the Cambridge three,
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: guy Burgess, also fled, it would be really hard for
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: Kim Philby to be like, oh my gosh, I can't
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: believe my two best friends or Soviet spies, but not me.
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: So he told Guy Burgess, like, McLean's leaving, you cannot leave.
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: You have to stay here. We're going to ride this
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: out together. Just we'll be okay. And Guy Burges said, yes, absolutely,
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: and he dipped with McLean two, leaving Kim Philby to
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: hold the bag.
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and he was holding the bag because he didn't
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: know this was coming. Moscow didn't say that was going
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: to happen, so word gets out. It's pretty clear that
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: there's a third man que the zither and that had,
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: you know, said hey, Moscow, here's what's going on. So
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: the writing's on the wall. He knows he's about to
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: be found out, even though he had all this protection
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: as the Cambridge boy, these other two guys being Cambridge
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: gentleman being moles and just sort of disappearing. You know,
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: it could be anyone. So he knew that the writing
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: was on the wall. He's everyone's starting to remember, like,
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: wait a minute, all three guys were super leftists, like
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: communists in college, and they really turned, they really changed
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: their mind on how they felt about things ideologically really quickly.
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: And then there's also the Volkoff Affair and Operation Valuable
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: and like all the things that Philby's assigned to are
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: going tits up.
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well put he he could have fled too. He
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: didn't though, He's like, I think the best thing I
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: can do is stay here, and just by having the
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: guts to stay here, it'll make me look all the
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: more innocent, like it will back up my claim right,
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: like what person in his right mind would be a
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: Soviet spy? And when he's basically outed, stick around to
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: say no, I'm not a spy. And that's exactly what
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: he did. And am I sick at the end where
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: they said, okay, we'll believe you, and they circled the
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: wagons around him again because he was an aristocrat. But
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: the CIA, the FBI, M I five, which is like
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: the UK's version of the FBI, all of them were
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: like this guy, Kim Philby, he's the third man, he's
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: a Soviet spy and I six would not hear of it.
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: And there is actually a riff that developed between six
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: and the other agencies. But the reason why I six
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: was willing to do this was because, like we said,
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: he was such a good friend, that is true friends
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: who were left who weren't spies came to his defense,
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: and they staked their reputations on Kim philby not being
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: the third man, the Soviet spy that was still embedded
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: in the in six.
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and those were James Angleton, who he talked about,
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: the CIA guy for twenty years. In a guy named
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: Nicholas Elliott, a career guy at mi I six, so
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: they him from being prosecuted. He couldn't still work at
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: m I six. He was forced to resign. They couldn't
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: save his job. But when this all came out, he
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: should have been it should have been like over for him,
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: but he held it again. The Wabels. In this guy,
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: he holds a press conference at his mom's house in
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: London and like live on camera, just very openly and
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: convincingly answers all these pointed questions from reporters, saying like
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: my two friends deceive me. Everyone ended up believing him.
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: And while this made him like technically a free guy,
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: he didn't have that job anymore, and he thrived on
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: that job. So he was pretty miserable at this point
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: and drinking way way too much.
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, for not the last time in his life. He
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: almost drank himself to death between nineteen fifty one and
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: nineteen fifty six, when he was just totally unmoored in
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: a drift. He was no longer an am I six.
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: The Soviets had cut off contact with him, and his
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: friend Nicholas Elliott, one of those guys who would stake
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: their reputation on Kim Philbey not being a Soviet spy.
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: He he pulled some strings. He used to be this
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: I six station chief in beay Root, and he got
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: in touch with some friends at the Observer and at
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: the Economist and said, why don't you take this guy,
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: Kim Philby as one of your reporters. He's a longtime journalist.
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: He used to be a journalist and covered the world.
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: Why don't you put him to work in Beyroot? And
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: they did. They put him in as a Middle East
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: correspondent for both of those papers.
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: And while this happened, or sort of shortly after this happened,
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: Elliott said, and you know what, you can start working
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: for MI I six again, just on the down low, right.
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: We'll throw you some bones here and there you can
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: go to work. So now Philby has this once again.
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: He's a journalist again. He's quietly working for I six again.
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: And he could have just you know, played it straight
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: from this point forward and been like, all right, I
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: got back on track. But he calls up through Ruskies
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: and he's like, guess what, oh, boys, guess who's back
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: in and immediately, you know, because of his love of
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: Communism is one thing, I think, but the author of
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: that book, Mackensire, also makes a point that and I
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: think a good one, that he was sort of addicted
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: to this kind of lifestyle, the deception lifestyle of drinking
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: and philandering and leading these two lives. Like he seemed
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: to really thrive off of that subterfuge and could not
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: give it up right.
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: So he was back in and again he was happy
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: to be alive once again. And I think this lasted
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: for about a year. A woman named Flora Solomon came forward.
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: She had been reading some of Philby's articles in either
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: The Observer of the Economists or both that were unflattering
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: toward Israel, and Flora Solomon was dedicated to the cause
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: of Israel and did not like that. So she said,
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: you know what, I've had this thing in my pocket
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: for thirty years. Kim Philbey approached me when we were
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: back at Cambridge and asked me if I wanted to
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: become a Soviet spy and I said no, and then
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: I just let it go for thirty years until he
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: ticks me off. And so this was this was it,
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: Like she said, this guy is a Soviet spy, told
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: an editor at one of the papers, either the Economists
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: or the Observer. Again they turned around and told six,
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: and Kim Philby was in again in trouble, and this
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: time he had nobody to swoop in to help him out.
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: He was he was basically cooked.
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: I feel like those kind of loose ends don't happen
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: in intelligence anymore, Like, oh, this woman who you tried
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: to recruit as a spy is just out there with
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: this information.
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: I read why Why Because m I six at the
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: time was doing something called negative vetting. They would look
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: at your record, your file, whatever they had on you,
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: and as long as nothing no red flags popped out,
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: you were in, rather than positive betting, where they conducted
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: an actual background like a background investigation on you. That
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: they went to the trouble of like doing research as
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: long as there's no problems your wow. So that was
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: one reason why it changed.
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: Okay, well that makes sense. Thank glad you knew that.
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: Thank you. So where were we? Okay, So he was
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: in trouble. He couldn't deny, you know, what was going
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: on any longer. His buddy, Nichol Nicholas Elliott was pretty upset. Obviously,
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: he volunteered to go to beir route and get a
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: confession out of Philby, and he tried to deny it
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: to him still, but Elliott was he was super upset
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: at this point, and he was like, you're you're my friend.
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: You pulled a charade over my eyes. The blank the
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: charad over my eyes. The wool the wooly blanket has
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: been pulled over my eyes, old boy, and he was,
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: he was, he was ticked off. And finally he was like, hey, listen,
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: give me a full confession. I can make sure you're
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: not prosecuted for this. Philby knew that like even if
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: that happened, he wouldn't be like a free man. Like
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: the m I six was all of a sudden going
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: to put the thumb screws on him to try and
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: get all the information he ever had about the Soviets. Right,
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: the Soviets were probably going to try and snuff him
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: out right. So he's like, I gotta just leave. I
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: got to get the heck out of here.
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: Well, he compromised, so just this past January they declassified
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: the confession that he gave to Nicholas Elliott, and in
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: it he basically said, yes, I spied for the Soviets,
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: but only while they were allies to the UK, just
• 43:21
  Speaker 2: in World War two yea, and in nineteen forty six
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: I stopped. So he compromised. He had to give them something,
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: but he also didn't give them enough that the Soviets
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: would want to kill him.
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: Right right, well, hopefully right.
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: Exactly, and that Nicholas Elliott had a great quote when
• 43:36
  Speaker 2: he went to bay Rude. He said, I once looked
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: up to you, Kim, My God, how I despise you. Now.
• 43:41
  Speaker 2: I hope you've enough decency left to understand why.
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so painful.
• 43:47
  Speaker 2: Philby's sitting there, He's doing three days of interviews with
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: Nicholas Elliott, and on the third day he's like, that's enough.
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: I'm out of here. And he vanished from be Root
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: in January of nineteen sixty three, shortly after telling his
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: wife he'd meet her at a diplomatic dinner party that evening,
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: and he hopped on the Soviet freighter and slipped away
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: so easily that even the KGB was like, We're pretty
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: sure Nicholas Elliott let him slip away.
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And he may have, because just to let him
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: quietly leave was a lot less embarrassing for England than
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: to put him on trial and to go through this
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: big public spectacle where all these people are trotted out
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: and ask like, how did this guy get away with
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: this for so long under your watch? So he left.
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: He lived in Moscow for the rest of his life. Yeah,
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: twenty five years. You can google pictures of like an
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: elderly Kim philby walking around Moscow. He eventually would die
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: in a Russian hospital in nineteen eighty eight, and never
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: said a bad word about the reign of terror from
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: Stalin or anything like that. He got the Order of Lenin,
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: like you said, was awarded the highest honors in three different,
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: very opposing places.
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: Right exactly.
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: He was so good at lying in his spycraft.
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: He also, I mean, he was considered, i think still
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: to this day is considered a national hero in Russia.
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: He was featured on a postage stamp in nineteen ninety
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: as part of the Soviet intelligence Agent series of postage stamps.
• 45:18
  Speaker 2: And I think he got full military KGB honors when
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: he was buried in Moscow. And yet I read this
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: blog called Cipher Brief and they basically say the big
• 45:31
  Speaker 2: problem they did, in an addition to all the lives
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: lost because of him, was just the damage he did
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: at creating paranoia in all of the intelligence agencies which
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: tore themselves apart looking for Soviet spies because they found
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: out that they were not just three, but five. And
• 45:48
  Speaker 2: they tore themselves up for decades to come looking for
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: that fifth one because they didn't know who it was,
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: and it turned out it was a guy named John
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: karn Cross. And then there was another one named Anthony Blunt,
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: who was the art curator for the Crown, but he
• 46:04
  Speaker 2: was a trader at any rate. That was one of
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: the big lasting legacies Kim Philby left behind him was
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: just utter paranoia.
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, if it could have been them, it
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: could have been anyone. And it was also this sort
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: of this bedrock thing of that up until then had
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: been you know, if you come from the right family,
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: if you come from the right world, then you're to
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: be trusted as an insider. M h. It rocked them
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: to the very foundation.
• 46:30
  Speaker 2: Well put chaps, you got anything else?
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: Well no, But since he said chap, I think you
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: know what that means.
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: It means that I've unlocked less than her mail.
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: That's right. This is from it says Emily. But there's
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: a little is it an accent? Al goo or grove
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: which is the one that goes from northeast to southwest?
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: Like I know, okay, that's above the east. So I'm
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: not sure how Emily pronounces the name. There might be emil.
• 47:06
  Speaker 2: No like you would pronounce the e. If it has
• 47:09
  Speaker 2: an accent. There's something to it, eh Mel. Thank it
• 47:14
  Speaker 2: all right?
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: Hey, guys, been listening since around twenty eighteen provided me
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: much comfort, entertainment, and knowledge, So thank you. I'm from
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: Montreal and I love your poutine short stuff episode. I'm
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: somewhat of a poutine super fan and purist. It's been
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: on my mission to try and rate as many poutines
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: as possible throughout Quebec to find my favorite. I thought
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: i'd share my personal poutine rating system with you because
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: I've found it to be a rigorous method. Nice poor criteria.
• 47:37
  Speaker 1: Number one cheese kurt how squeaky? Are the kurds too
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: big or too small?
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: Okay?
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: Number two? Gravy sauce too sweet? Tomato e not salty enough?
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: Too runny?
• 47:48
  Speaker 2: Tomato we.
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: Eh, I don't know, okay. Uh, French fries too limp ugh?
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: Is the cut tooth thick? Are they tasteless? Oh?
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah? Do they taste like Wendy's tasteless fries?
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: Oh not on the Wendy's fries?
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: Huh No?
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: Pretty good dipped in a frosty though, Yes. Assembly is
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: the cheese gravy fry ratio just right? That's a big one.
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: Is the portion too big or too small? And bonus
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: fifth criteria the value for money.
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: Oh that's a good good extra one there at the end.
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, pretty good. Even though poutine is a simple dish,
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: Guy's the beauty of it is so that it can
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: be adapted to everyone's own personal taste. Thank you very
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: much for the podcast. To all the team have a
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: nice day.
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: That is from Emele, Thank you very much, Emilay Emily.
• 48:39
  Speaker 2: That is a great test, a litmus tests, if you will,
• 48:42
  Speaker 2: for poutine. In my opinion, it would be really tough
• 48:46
  Speaker 2: for the gravy too potato ratio to be too much gravy.
• 48:52
  Speaker 2: It'd be easy to be too little gravy, but too
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: much gravy would be hard to achieve.
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: In my opinion, that could lead to a soggy fry, though.
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: That just means you're not eating them fast enough.
• 49:02
  Speaker 1: Good point.
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: All right, Well, if you want to be like Emily
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: and send us your own personal litmus test for something
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: or other, we love that kind of stuff, you can
• 49:10
  Speaker 2: send it to Stuff Podcasts at iHeartRadio dot com.
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.