Latest / The iAlign Podcast with Flint Mitchell / #31 - The Dark Roots of Anthropology, Facing Social Anxiety, and Living a Curious Life with Gaby Lapera

Transcript

#31 - The Dark Roots of Anthropology, Facing Social Anxiety, and Living a Curious Life with Gaby Lapera · The iAlign Podcast with Flint Mitchell

0:02
SPEAKER_00: Always be curious, always be questioning like, why am I feeling this thing?
0:06
SPEAKER_00: How can I be better?
0:08
SPEAKER_00: How can I be better for other people?
0:10
SPEAKER_00: How can I be better for myself?
0:12
SPEAKER_00: It all comes down to curiosity and kind of like just constantly asking those questions.
0:29
SPEAKER_01: What's up, y'all?
0:31
SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Seeking Authenticity.
0:33
SPEAKER_01: My name is Flint Mitchell, and I get absolutely psyched by having conversations with authentic people that I admire about the things they value.
0:41
SPEAKER_01: Their stories and perspectives don't just make me smile, laugh, and think.
0:46
SPEAKER_01: They inspire me to wake up earlier, listen better, focus, and work harder, and help make me a better version of myself.
0:53
SPEAKER_01: And it's my hope that sharing these conversations through this podcast might do the same thing for you.
1:00
SPEAKER_01: In this episode, I talk with Gabby LaPera.
1:03
SPEAKER_01: Gabby is both an editor and writer for companies like the Motley Fool and Credit Karma, while also hosting her own podcast, Anthrobiology, a show about her personal passion for physical and biological anthropology, which she got her master's degree in.
1:17
SPEAKER_01: I really enjoyed meeting Gabby because right from the beginning she brought both an enthusiastic and curious mindset into our first chat.
1:24
SPEAKER_01: In this episode, we dive a bit into that theme of why it's so important to be curious and the defining factors of what makes a curious person.
1:32
SPEAKER_01: Likewise, we dive into anthropology.
1:34
SPEAKER_01: She talks about how she found her niche to physical anthropology during school, some of the surprising roots of the field, academia, dealing with social anxiety, and pursuing opportunities based on the morals you'd like to live out.
1:48
SPEAKER_01: We cover a lot of ground in this fun chat.
1:50
SPEAKER_01: I had a blast listening to Gabby's perspective, and I know you will too.
1:54
SPEAKER_01: Enjoy.
1:58
SPEAKER_01: Thank you for doing this with me, Gabby.
2:00
SPEAKER_01: I really appreciate it.
2:01
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no problem.
2:02
SPEAKER_01: No, I I was uh looking through your LinkedIn, it seemed like you have a really cool kind of uh background in science, but then also a separate career.
2:10
SPEAKER_01: And I always find it really interesting the way that people balance those kind of passions with you know making money and and in and living, right?
2:19
SPEAKER_01: Because a lot of scientific fields and academia don't really provide for the most luxurious lifestyles, you know.
2:26
SPEAKER_01: Likewise, it seems like you've had a lot of cool experiences and have jumped not necessarily uh one direct career path, but maybe taking some twists and turns.
2:36
SPEAKER_01: And I think those are kind of inspiring conversations to see how you choose what direction you go in.
2:42
SPEAKER_01: And kind of with all that said, I was wondering if you could tell me a bit about your initial fascination with anthropology in university and then how you found your niche of uh biological or physical anthropology uh during that experience.
2:58
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, definitely.
3:00
SPEAKER_00: I have never been someone who's known exactly where they're going.
3:05
SPEAKER_00: I knew those girls in high school, and I say girls because I went to an all-girls high school.
3:10
SPEAKER_00: There was this one girl I remember who it was graduation day, and everyone was talking about like what schools they were gonna go to.
3:17
SPEAKER_00: And she said, I'm gonna go to Columbia and I'm gonna graduate, and then I'm gonna go work at Goldman Sachs, and I'm gonna get married to an account executive, and I'm gonna have two children.
3:28
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, I'm 18, I don't know what I'm gonna major in, and now I'm terrified.
3:34
SPEAKER_00: Like, does everyone know what they're supposed to be doing?
3:37
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
3:38
SPEAKER_00: And I would say generally the answer to that is no, but I think that anthropology in particular is something that is really appealing to people who have a lot of interests.
3:48
SPEAKER_00: And you brought up my my background.
3:50
SPEAKER_00: I do I like to describe it as being kind of an intellectual magpie.
3:56
SPEAKER_00: I like a lot of different things.
3:58
SPEAKER_00: I'm interested in a lot of different things, I'm curious about a lot of different things.
4:03
SPEAKER_00: Um, in high school, I interned on the hill and I also interned for a peace activist, and I also worked at horseback riding barns, like on farms and stuff growing up.
4:12
SPEAKER_00: And when I got to college, I kind of kicked around not really knowing what to do, always liking history.
4:20
SPEAKER_00: And I took this one class, I went to William and Mary, um, which is in Williamsburg, Virginia.
4:26
SPEAKER_03: Cool.
4:26
SPEAKER_00: Um, known most famously as the place fun goes to die from a TV show.
4:34
SPEAKER_00: Uh, but colonial Williamsburg is actually pretty cool if you like history.
4:39
SPEAKER_00: If you don't, it's kind of it's kind of a bummer.
4:42
SPEAKER_01: Especially American history, I'd imagine.
4:44
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
4:44
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
4:45
SPEAKER_00: And Williamsburg is very close to Jamestown, the original Jamestown and the rebuilt Jamestown.
4:50
SPEAKER_00: Um, so what happened?
4:51
SPEAKER_00: That's this is kind of like a side story.
4:54
SPEAKER_00: But back in like the 80s, like the 90s, they decided that they were never going to find the original Jamestown colony.
5:01
SPEAKER_00: And the um anniversary of the founding of Jamestown is coming up, and so they built a fake Jamestown.
5:07
SPEAKER_00: And then, like six years later, this archaeologist finds Jamestown like a half mile down the road or something like that.
5:14
SPEAKER_00: It's ridiculous.
5:15
SPEAKER_03: That's hilarious.
5:16
SPEAKER_00: And so there's like a lot of ongoing archaeology down there, and a friend of mine convinced me to take that class.
5:21
SPEAKER_00: And simultaneously, I had another friend who, my roommate, really wanted me to take a class with her.
5:26
SPEAKER_00: The only one that worked with both of our schedules was an 8 a.m.
5:29
SPEAKER_00: anthropology class.
5:31
SPEAKER_00: I'm not a morning person, but I love this roommate dearly.
5:35
SPEAKER_00: And kind of those two things happening at the same time kind of awakened my interest in anthropology.
5:41
SPEAKER_00: Archaeology is actually a subfield of anthropology.
5:44
SPEAKER_00: The way it works in the United States is anthropology is a four-field discipline, and that's linguistics, uh, archaeology, cultural anthropology, which is what a lot of people think of, like going to different cultures and like learning their traditions and rites and practices, and then biological anthropology, which is what I was most interested in.
6:04
SPEAKER_00: Um, and biological anthropology is in and of itself a lot of different disciplines altogether.
6:10
SPEAKER_00: So you have primatology, so that's like Jane Goodall hanging out with chimps, learning about them because those are our closest living relatives.
6:19
SPEAKER_00: So trying to see if like we can understand something about the human past from studying our relatives.
6:26
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
6:26
SPEAKER_00: Uh, there's evolutionary anthropology, so those are the people who go to Africa or Asia to find really, really old examples of human relatives.
6:37
SPEAKER_00: And then there is kind of like another set, which kind of falls under bioarchaeology.
6:46
SPEAKER_00: And that also has forensic anthropology in it too.
6:50
SPEAKER_00: And that's just like the study of the human skeleton and understanding how our skeleton is affected by the environment and our biology.
6:59
SPEAKER_00: So you can look at the skeleton and actually find out quite a few things about an individual beyond things that are obvious, right?
7:05
SPEAKER_00: Like height or sex, or and I'd say sex in particular here and not gender, because we are dealing with just like biological sex, but even there it can be very complicated.
7:15
SPEAKER_00: Um, but you can also see things like old injuries or some diseases leave marks on the bones.
7:21
SPEAKER_00: So you can kind of start coming to conclusions about what that person's life might have been like based on their skeletons.
7:27
SPEAKER_00: And then it obviously it has some very obvious implications for forensics, right?
7:31
SPEAKER_00: So if you find a fully skeletonized, yes, a fully skeletonized individual, you can make some educated guesses as to who they are so it can help uh detectives narrow down their search for for the missing person.
7:46
SPEAKER_00: Um I was most interested in this, in this this osteology, and I actually I interned at the Smithsonian for quite a while for this guy named Doug Owsley, who is amazing and super smart and super kind.
8:01
SPEAKER_01: Why do you say that?
8:02
SPEAKER_00: He's maybe one of the kindest people I've ever met, and he's also kind of like a titan in the field, but he's also like very, very Midwestern and very humble in a way that sometimes you don't see in academia.
8:16
SPEAKER_00: But he was the first person you'd walk into his office and he'd be like, Do you want some milk and cookies?
8:23
SPEAKER_00: You know, and then like he'd give you your plate of milk and cookies, and then he'd tour you around the lab and like hold up a skull.
8:30
SPEAKER_00: You're trying to eat your cookies, and I think this is the skull of a pirate.
8:35
SPEAKER_00: Just a very interesting juxtaposition.
8:39
SPEAKER_00: He was he was so kind.
8:40
SPEAKER_00: He was also like he was organized in a way that was peculiar to him.
8:47
SPEAKER_00: But I remember one day during my internship, I sat down and I was like, listen, Doug, I found an article from 1996 on your desk.
8:55
SPEAKER_00: Like, we can't we can't do this anymore.
8:58
SPEAKER_00: Like, someone needs to organize.
9:00
SPEAKER_00: And so, like, I'm going through, and every single thing that I pull out, he's like, Oh, yes, I remember that exact case and time and instance, and the file is on the third shelf to the left behind the raccoon bones, you know, and so like I ended up organizing everything, but I remember opening up a file, a filing cabinet, and I pull out a skull, and I realized that the skull like is in a box that's labeled Dahmer Murders, like Jeffrey Dahmer.
9:27
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, Doug, why is this in a why is this in a filing cabinet all by itself?
9:32
SPEAKER_00: With like what is happening?
9:34
SPEAKER_00: And he's like, Oh yeah, I put that there in like 1992.
9:38
SPEAKER_00: I was wondering where that got into.
9:40
SPEAKER_00: Like, oh my gosh.
9:41
SPEAKER_01: He sounds like a treasure.
9:42
SPEAKER_00: He is, he's wonderful, he's absolutely wonderful, but also not without his own set of controversies.
9:48
SPEAKER_00: Um, if your listeners are interested, there is a skeleton known as Kennewick Man, 10,000-year-old skeleton that was discovered in Washington on the Kennewick River.
10:00
SPEAKER_00: And this gets into some of the complications of biological anthropology.
10:06
SPEAKER_00: We anthropology as a discipline has had a lot of issues with the way that it treats minorities.
10:13
SPEAKER_00: A lot of the way that biological anthropology started was as a way to categorize racial differences to justify white superiority.
10:23
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's a very dark, terrible history, and the field is working to overcome it sometimes more successfully than others.
10:32
SPEAKER_01: Right, because it probably influences a lot of the like the papers or books that were written in the in the past if they were written through that lens.
10:41
SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes, absolutely.
10:42
SPEAKER_00: Um, and there's a lot of discussions about race and racism going on in like different ways.
10:47
SPEAKER_00: Uh, so for example, some researchers feel that you can determine with some degree of statistical significance uh ancestry, or we use the term ancestry instead of race because race is like a very loaded term, but ancestry means meaning like geographical ancestry.
11:07
SPEAKER_00: Exactly, yeah.
11:08
SPEAKER_00: Right.
11:08
SPEAKER_00: Um, but even that is very difficult and it can be used in ways that are not good, and it's also I think frequently misunderstood because it is just a statistical probability.
11:22
SPEAKER_00: Probability, absolutely, as opposed to saying like, yes, this person is a hundred percent African or from the Langadoc region of France or whatever it is.
11:31
SPEAKER_01: That's interesting.
11:32
SPEAKER_01: I've never heard about that side of uh uh anthropology or of um not thinking of the word of discovering these uh bones.
11:41
SPEAKER_00: Um yes, yes.
11:42
SPEAKER_00: So it's like something to keep in mind, but with Kennewick man in particular, in the United States, anthropology has historically not been great to Native Americans.
11:53
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
11:53
SPEAKER_00: Um it can believe that.
11:55
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so a lot of really early anthropologists actually kind of cut their teeth on studying Native tribes because the idea was that they were disappearing, that they were a last vestige of the quote unquote savage West.
12:07
SPEAKER_00: And it was important to write it down before they all disappeared.
12:10
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
12:11
SPEAKER_00: Like kind of not being cognizant of the fact that we were the ones doing that.
12:16
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
12:17
SPEAKER_00: Exactly, that it's like our fault.
12:18
SPEAKER_00: And then on top of that, when when the Smithsonian was founded, um, or the Army Medical Museum, rather, there was a guy who was in the Army and he was really interested in osteology.
12:30
SPEAKER_00: And he basically told soldiers as they were riding across the American West, if you find any skeletons, just pack them up and send them back here, and we'll add them to our anatomical collection.
12:39
SPEAKER_00: It'll be rad.
12:41
SPEAKER_00: So these people essentially just robbed Native Americans' graves, yes, and sent them back to Washington, DC, where they eventually ended up in the Smithsonian's collections.
12:53
SPEAKER_00: And like, that's not a great way to have a relationship with a people.
12:58
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
12:59
SPEAKER_00: Um and over time we eventually realized that that isn't right.
13:04
SPEAKER_00: And we've been like trying to address some of those things.
13:07
SPEAKER_00: And there was a law passed called NAGPRA, which is the Native Americans Graves Protection and Repatriation Act.
13:13
SPEAKER_00: There's another one specifically for the Smithsonian because it's a federal institution.
13:17
SPEAKER_00: But basically, it says that anyone who has native remains or artifacts, um, if the tribe wants them back, has to return them to them.
13:31
SPEAKER_00: Now the issue comes up with someone like Kennewick man, he's 10,000 years old.
13:36
SPEAKER_00: Scientists would say he doesn't belong to any extant modern tribes.
13:44
SPEAKER_00: The local people, their belief system of the world says that they were the first and only people there.
13:52
SPEAKER_00: And so, of course, Kennewick man is their ancestor and he belongs to them.
13:57
SPEAKER_00: And this is kind of one of those, like kind of like a perfect crystallization of the kinds of problems that you encounter in biological anthropology today.
14:06
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
14:06
SPEAKER_00: It's like no one's right and no one's wrong here.
14:10
SPEAKER_00: Everyone is both at the same time.
14:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
14:12
SPEAKER_00: Um, and how do you figure that out, right?
14:14
SPEAKER_00: So, like, even someone as kind as Doug, like, you know, like even his research is not without without problems.
14:24
SPEAKER_00: So, anyway, that was a very long take.
14:26
SPEAKER_01: No, no, I I absolutely love that.
14:28
SPEAKER_01: I think it's a it, like you said, and like the the verb crystallization, it's a perfect example of the field and the purpose of it.
14:39
SPEAKER_01: Because I mean, when I when I was briefly looking at it before this, I kind of just got a glimpse of what it was and not necessarily why, um, why you would study it.
14:50
SPEAKER_01: I I think it's interesting.
14:52
SPEAKER_01: Another kind of point tracking back a bit was that uh I always think of archaeology as thousands of years ago or a long time ago.
15:04
SPEAKER_01: But thinking about it then, like in you know, the east coast of the United States, archaeology could be used just for like our own civilization.
15:11
SPEAKER_01: I've never really thought about it as that old, you know.
15:15
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, definitely.
15:16
SPEAKER_00: It's really cool because we get these really interesting perspectives into what early life was like in the Americas for European settlers mostly, um, but also Native Americans.
15:29
SPEAKER_00: Uh, there's this great project.
15:30
SPEAKER_00: So Doug was actually involved with the excavation of the cemeteries in Jamestown, and they found some really interesting things like what people died from, um, what uh there's this time early, early in Jamestown settlement that was called the starving time, which is, as it implies, a time of great famine.
15:48
SPEAKER_00: It was not a great time to be a Jamestown colonist.
15:52
SPEAKER_00: And there's long been rumors that there was cannibalism, um, but no one could ever prove it until they actually found a skull, a human skull, and some long bones with butchery marks on them that belong to a human, which pretty clearly indicates that cannibalism was in fact something that happened.
16:10
SPEAKER_02: That's wild.
16:11
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
16:12
SPEAKER_00: And there's other ways that you can apply it to all sorts of different ways.
16:16
SPEAKER_00: So, for example, you can also look at isotope analysis.
16:20
SPEAKER_00: So looking at the varying degrees of certain elements in bones to understand where a person comes from.
16:27
SPEAKER_00: That feels like science fiction, but it's totally something that's possible.
16:31
SPEAKER_00: Um, so these are all things that are involved in osteology, and it was so, so interesting to me.
16:36
SPEAKER_00: And it it really tied in neatly with history.
16:39
SPEAKER_00: And I growing up, I was kind of told I wasn't very good at math and science, but I discovered in college that I really loved it.
16:47
SPEAKER_00: Which is that's good.
16:48
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, which is how I kind of ended up on this biological anthropology kick.
16:52
SPEAKER_00: Um, but the longer I spent doing it, the more I realized the thing that really interested me was human evolutionary biology.
17:01
SPEAKER_00: So eventually I went to grad school to get my master's.
17:05
SPEAKER_00: I had a kind of a year off in between uh graduating from my undergraduate and going to go get my master's.
17:11
SPEAKER_00: I worked as a bartender and I worked as an accountant and I continued to intern at the Smithsonian.
17:17
SPEAKER_00: It's really crazy.
17:18
SPEAKER_00: I didn't sleep a lot.
17:19
SPEAKER_01: Were you just looking for experiences that were like dictate what you wanted to do next?
17:24
SPEAKER_00: I wasn't, yeah, I wasn't 100% sure what I'd wanted to do.
17:27
SPEAKER_00: I had applied to PhD programs in my undergraduate and I'd actually been rejected from all of them because, and I think rightfully so, I think that they had kind of sense that I wasn't a hundred percent sure what I wanted to do.
17:41
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
17:42
SPEAKER_00: Um, in the meantime, one of the programs that I applied to was actually in DC, and I reached out to the professor that I'd wanted to work for, and I was like, hey, what happened?
17:53
SPEAKER_00: Why didn't you accept me?
17:57
SPEAKER_00: I was a little bit more polite about it than that, but that's essentially what it boiled down to.
18:01
SPEAKER_00: And I remember he looked at my application and he looked at me and he was like, damn, I don't know.
18:05
SPEAKER_00: Like you seem great.
18:07
SPEAKER_02: And I was like, heavy.
18:09
SPEAKER_00: Oh, okay, cool.
18:10
SPEAKER_00: So that's just a fluke then.
18:12
SPEAKER_01: Um but it's pretty awesome of you to reach out though to ask for that response.
18:18
SPEAKER_01: I don't think a lot of people do that.
18:19
SPEAKER_00: I think it's something that's kind of been a theme in my life.
18:23
SPEAKER_00: Um, and I hear this a lot from like managers and friends, that I find it really important.
18:29
SPEAKER_00: I have a hard time knowing that I've done something wrong or I've been doing something wrong for a really long time, and no one ever said anything to me about it.
18:38
SPEAKER_00: Like they just kind of suffered through it because of something I was doing.
18:42
SPEAKER_00: And so I kind of try to constantly solicit feedback in a way that's hopefully not annoying to people because that can also be annoying, just constantly being like, hey.
18:52
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's an interesting one, is um one, the timing, like how often do you ask for feedback, or like after what types of events do you ask for feedback?
19:02
SPEAKER_01: How to do it.
19:03
SPEAKER_01: I think it's a pretty intimidating thing because you're inherently asking, generally, you're asking about something like you're opening yourself up for someone to tell you that you're doing something poorly, right?
19:14
SPEAKER_01: That's like intimidating to ask for someone to tell you that you're doing something wrong.
19:20
SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of intrepidation that goes along with like actively asking for feedback, but it is so important.
19:27
SPEAKER_00: It's so, so important.
19:29
SPEAKER_00: And I think that one of the things I like to do is whenever I start a relationship with someone, I that makes it sound like I'm like going out on Tinder dates and being like, okay.
19:41
SPEAKER_01: Is it in the bio?
19:42
SPEAKER_00: That's not that's not what happens, but like whenever I I have like so I started a new project at work the other day with this guy that I've never worked with, and I was like, listen, Arjun, um if I'm doing something that's really annoying you, just like tell me.
19:56
SPEAKER_00: Like it's not gonna hurt my feelings.
19:58
SPEAKER_00: And I think that that's the thing that prevents a lot of people from giving feedback, is that sure they really worry about how that person's gonna receive it.
20:07
SPEAKER_00: And that's something that you yourself have to practice.
20:10
SPEAKER_00: It is really hard to hear that you're not doing something as well as you thought, but it's an opportunity for growth.
20:16
SPEAKER_00: And I know that that doesn't help when you've been told that you're wrong or you're do you're doing poorly.
20:22
SPEAKER_00: Like you're like, great, I can grow now.
20:25
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I still feel like shit.
20:28
SPEAKER_01: It's it is, I actually do the same thing is when I start new projects or like start it with under new boss or something like that, I make it very clear that um I am actively trying not to pull my ego into the success of my work.
20:47
SPEAKER_01: And so it's like if you tell me that I'm doing something wrong, I'm not gonna get super defensive.
20:51
SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna, I mean, hopefully they're not just being a dick, but but it's it's like really important to set that precedent.
20:58
SPEAKER_01: I agree, because I don't think otherwise I don't think you'll get you know real honest feedback that'll help you.
21:05
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, definitely.
21:06
SPEAKER_01: Have there ever has there ever been um a particular note or commentary of feedback that has really changed maybe your perception about something you thought you were doing well or like a direction you were taking?
21:19
SPEAKER_00: Yes, absolutely.
21:20
SPEAKER_00: I remember it super clearly.
21:22
SPEAKER_00: It was my freshman year of high school.
21:25
SPEAKER_00: It was this biology teacher I had named Miss Damott.
21:28
SPEAKER_00: She was just like, I like think about her, and I still think about like iron.
21:33
SPEAKER_00: Like she just had this super straight back and this like gray hair and this like strong jaw, and she was like super smart and like very sharp.
21:42
SPEAKER_00: And I remember that I guess like it must have been halfway through the year of intro to biology.
21:52
SPEAKER_00: We got our report cards and like we got notes sent back to our parents about how we were doing, and she basically said, uh I think Gabby's really smart, but she doesn't show it at all.
22:06
SPEAKER_00: So she might not be smart.
22:08
SPEAKER_00: I don't think that that's what she actually said, but that's how I took it.
22:12
SPEAKER_01: Sure.
22:12
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
22:14
SPEAKER_00: And I remember that I was like, in I didn't use these words back then, but I was essentially like, fuck this lady.
22:21
SPEAKER_00: Like, I'm gonna show her.
22:23
SPEAKER_00: And I went and I sat in the front seat of that class.
22:27
SPEAKER_00: And every single class I made sure to ask a question.
22:30
SPEAKER_00: And that's when I realized that I like science.
22:33
SPEAKER_00: And she like she really forced me to get out of my shell.
22:37
SPEAKER_00: And this is something that I have been like working on my entire life is that I've always had like a lot of social anxiety.
22:43
SPEAKER_00: Um, that's part of the reason I became a bartender, was just to talk to people.
22:47
SPEAKER_03: Um, I love that.
22:49
SPEAKER_00: I like to talk to people, like I might be anxious, but I like to talk to them.
22:53
SPEAKER_00: Um and I think that she really she she essentially accomplished exactly what she set out to do because I was too ornery to do it the other way.
23:07
SPEAKER_00: I don't know, I don't know if she realized that, but she I still think about her all the time.
23:11
SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, I don't know that I would be where I'm at if I hadn't had an adult call me out on the fact that I was coasting, essentially.
23:20
SPEAKER_01: And that is an incredible kind of statement to conceptualize, which is like this.
23:25
SPEAKER_01: Maybe actually I take that back.
23:27
SPEAKER_01: I think it's during your entire life, it's not just when you're a child, but you need honest feedback in order to grow.
23:34
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
23:35
SPEAKER_01: Even if it hurts.
23:36
SPEAKER_00: You absolutely do.
23:38
SPEAKER_00: Um, you absolutely do.
23:40
SPEAKER_00: My mom's a life coach, so I get a lot of honest feedback, regardless of whether or not I want it.
23:45
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
23:46
SPEAKER_01: That's awesome.
23:48
SPEAKER_01: Oh no.
23:49
SPEAKER_01: And so did that kind of with uh this idea on um kind of facing this maybe social anxiety or this uh higher level of difficulty of maybe trying new things, it sounds like that was actually the reason why you went and pushed out to do new things.
24:06
SPEAKER_01: Is that still something that you take into account when you're like looking for your next job opportunity or career or project?
24:14
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
24:14
SPEAKER_00: I think that the thing that I always ask myself is is this something that I can learn and grow from?
24:22
SPEAKER_00: Is this taking me in a direction that I want to go?
24:27
SPEAKER_00: Um, I might not a hundred percent know where I'm going exactly.
24:32
SPEAKER_00: Like I don't know where it is that I want to end up, and that's still true to this day.
24:37
SPEAKER_00: But I am really cognizant of the fact that I'm very fortunate that I can make a lot of decisions that affect my life.
24:46
SPEAKER_00: Um, and I can make choices that move me closer towards the person that I would like to be.
24:55
SPEAKER_00: I'm not necessarily great at goal setting, right?
24:58
SPEAKER_00: Like I'm not like, okay, by the end of the year, I'm gonna have$20,000 saved or something like that.
25:03
SPEAKER_00: But I am really good at writing out in an ideal world, here is the type of person I would be, right?
25:12
SPEAKER_00: And not like here's what job I would have, but like morally, what would I do?
25:17
SPEAKER_00: Like what would what would make me a good or better person?
25:21
SPEAKER_00: And I try to make decisions that push me in that direction.
25:24
SPEAKER_01: Um absolutely.
25:27
SPEAKER_00: And one of the things that I've realized too is that I am a worse person when I'm bored.
25:33
SPEAKER_00: So it's really important for me to to have something that keeps my attention, that keeps me thinking and growing.
25:41
SPEAKER_01: Um how do you define bored?
25:44
SPEAKER_01: Bored?
25:45
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
25:46
SPEAKER_00: Bored is for me, boredom is doing the same thing every day without getting to stretch my mind in any way at all.
25:57
SPEAKER_00: Something where I can't fix a process or try something new or just think new thoughts.
26:05
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and well, I would I I say that because I that I think that's a fantastic definition of it.
26:11
SPEAKER_01: I I think sometimes people use the word bored just meaning like silent times or like no, no.
26:20
SPEAKER_00: I so sometime one time someone told me only boring people are bored.
26:24
SPEAKER_00: That's a yeah.
26:27
SPEAKER_00: And that that also has really stuck with me.
26:29
SPEAKER_00: Um, I despite my slightly maniacal energy on this phone call, um, I do actually spend quite a bit of time just like by myself, like quietly thinking, right?
26:42
SPEAKER_00: Um I I love to run, um, I read a lot.
26:48
SPEAKER_00: I have been trying to meditate, but I am so bad at it.
26:52
SPEAKER_01: I don't think there's any, there's no such thing as being bad at meditating.
26:56
SPEAKER_00: Okay, yes.
26:57
SPEAKER_00: I yes, okay.
26:59
SPEAKER_01: As long as you try to do it, I think.
27:00
SPEAKER_00: I will I will accept that as feedback.
27:03
SPEAKER_00: Um I'll try not to think about how bad I am at meditating next time I meditate.
27:08
SPEAKER_00: Um no, I think that there's always time for self-reflection and self-thought.
27:12
SPEAKER_00: Like, I think that's really important.
27:13
SPEAKER_00: Um, but that's not to me, that's not boring, right?
27:16
SPEAKER_00: Because that's inspiring growth.
27:18
SPEAKER_00: And this is all making me sound like I'm a super put together person that's like, yeah, I just love learning and growing, and I am super smart and enlightened, and that is absolutely not the case.
27:29
SPEAKER_00: Like it's just like a constant, like it's just something that you could constantly have to query.
27:34
SPEAKER_00: And sometimes it's exhausting.
27:36
SPEAKER_00: And I'm not gonna lie, like sometimes I just sit at home and watch Call the Midwife and think, like, man, I'm really glad that I'm not having a baby in a poor side of part of London in the 1960s.
27:47
SPEAKER_00: Like, that sounds awful.
27:48
SPEAKER_00: Like, and eat chili, and that's it.
27:50
SPEAKER_00: That's all I do.
27:51
SPEAKER_01: I love it.
27:51
SPEAKER_01: I um not to plug a project on doing right now, but I think it's uh I it's like it's a good example of this, is I am actually very similar.
28:00
SPEAKER_01: I I have a book coming out at the end of this year that's all about value systems.
28:06
SPEAKER_01: And the original intention was exactly what you were saying, which is I was trying, I was trying 25, and I wanted to write like a declaration, not of where I wanted to be or the job I wanted, but of like who I wanted to be at that time.
28:20
SPEAKER_01: And my metric of success as far as or metric of metric, the measurement I wanted to use were like the values that I thought were important.
28:28
SPEAKER_01: So it was like integrity and responsibility for self and stuff like that.
28:32
SPEAKER_01: Um so I wrote this and I also added in groups of short stories that dealt with an adventure I was going on over the past year, and I had some like uh strangers read it, and they said that the most useful part of the book, uh not useful, but the part they found yeah, I guess useful to them were the stories because they were examples of how I was not perfect, like they were real honest stories about me like messing up or doing stupid shit because I do that all the time.
29:02
SPEAKER_01: Um, but it was like it's like you have your ideals, your values, but then you have reality where you're like trying to reach these, but at the same time you're just like human, you know.
29:13
SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, absolutely.
29:14
SPEAKER_00: And I think it is kind of like a constant reassessment.
29:18
SPEAKER_00: I'm probably biased, and you're probably biased in the same way because you're a writer and I'm an editor.
29:25
SPEAKER_00: But I've always found it super useful to write things down and be able to look at it both in the moment and then also to be able to look back and be like, there I was at that point in my life, and here's where I am now.
29:38
SPEAKER_00: Um just having kind of a way to mark to mark it.
29:42
SPEAKER_00: And like something about writing it makes it feel more real.
29:45
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
29:46
SPEAKER_01: What was or was there maybe a person or an experience that helped you define the the metrics you're using as far as like being a better person?
30:01
SPEAKER_01: Like I was saying, you know, I have these categories, and I think they're very similar among people, but how did you find out the ones that uh really made you feel like you were becoming a better person?
30:13
SPEAKER_00: Wow, that's a really big question.
30:15
SPEAKER_00: And I don't know that I've thought about it very closely.
30:21
SPEAKER_00: The first time I remember writing down like what I thought was a good set of morals was I was eight.
30:33
SPEAKER_00: And I was really, yes, I was really into I was I was really into fantasy novels at the time.
30:42
SPEAKER_00: I was like a very early and precocious reader, and I must have read something that had some like knight's code or something like that.
30:52
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, I need my own code, right?
30:55
SPEAKER_00: So I I won't say that it was particularly great writing, sure, but it was like the the seed, you know.
31:04
SPEAKER_00: But that was kind of the seed, and like I've had a lot of people who have had influences on me along the way.
31:11
SPEAKER_00: Like I think both of my parents, especially my mother, but also my father, they really try and set a standard that they live up to, and they expect everyone else to try their best to live up to that standard, but they also don't punish people for failing, if that makes sense.
31:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, which was I think a really important thing.
31:37
SPEAKER_00: Um and then uh actually an ex-boyfriend of mine, even though we don't talk now, there are some things that he said to me that how do I put this?
31:52
SPEAKER_00: Even though so he talked the talk, and the talk was really good.
31:57
SPEAKER_00: And even though he couldn't quite walk the walk, it made me want to walk the walk, if that makes sense.
32:03
SPEAKER_03: Totally.
32:04
SPEAKER_00: So those things that he said to me, even though he couldn't do them himself necessarily, they were things that I thought were important and it made me change the way that I was.
32:16
SPEAKER_01: Totally.
32:16
SPEAKER_01: It is interesting that it sounds and what I what that makes me think initially is that it's more about the person being receptive to ideas.
32:28
SPEAKER_01: Because it like I hear that and I I I I think you probably could have heard those ideas from anyone and thought they were important and tried to bring them into your own life, right?
32:40
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yes, yeah, potentially.
32:43
SPEAKER_00: One thing that I was thinking about earlier when we were talking is that one of the things that really worries me is that I see people, mostly older people, but sometimes people our age who have chosen to stop learning and to stop having an open mind.
33:04
SPEAKER_00: And I don't know when it happens or how it happens, but it's something that I'm really paranoid about.
33:11
SPEAKER_00: Um one, I think it makes you a more boring person, which we've already discussed.
33:15
SPEAKER_00: I'm not about.
33:18
SPEAKER_00: But two, I think it makes you far more fearful, and the more fearful you get, the smaller and smaller your world gets.
33:27
SPEAKER_00: Um and so I think that being receptive to feedback is just like one of the manifestations of this kind of overarching, like making sure that you have an open mind about a lot of stuff.
33:40
SPEAKER_00: But at the same time, even though you have this open mind, you have to have this grounding of being able to say, like, yes, this is wrong and this is right.
33:49
SPEAKER_00: And that's different for everyone.
33:51
SPEAKER_00: And it also brings up the question like, how do you decide what's wrong or right?
33:56
SPEAKER_00: Like, I remember having a conversation with a friend in college who's very, very Catholic, very Catholic.
34:02
SPEAKER_00: And he told me that I was one of the first non-religious people that he'd ever met.
34:10
SPEAKER_00: And before he met me, he wasn't really sure that he was like, How do you he asked me, How do you know what's wrong or right?
34:20
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, I have sat down and logically thought it out for myself.
34:25
SPEAKER_00: Like, I don't, and like what I think what it boils down to most simply for for me is like I I never want to harm someone else.
34:33
SPEAKER_00: Um, and I was like, but I I don't need a religion to tell me that.
34:39
SPEAKER_03: Sure.
34:39
SPEAKER_00: And I remember telling, and I'm not necessarily an atheist or anything like that, but I remember asking him, like, if you didn't have your religion telling you not to murder someone, would you start murdering people?
34:52
SPEAKER_00: And he was like, Well, no.
34:53
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, Well, I feel the same way, right?
34:57
SPEAKER_00: So it's like, I don't know, there's there's definitely like that that core of morality, that those those kind of incontrovertible principles that you have, but also keeping an open mind and and trying to be able to be open to new things.
35:12
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I think that is it's a it's a good route for that commentary, is that it stems from these kind of value systems because I think that people, uh, however they choose to get to them, it's like one of the ways we find common ground among any human is that many people have similar, like most people, regardless of what religion you are or or not, are gonna value honesty, right?
35:38
SPEAKER_01: It's like, yeah, you should tell the truth because that's important.
35:41
SPEAKER_01: And so how people manifest why it's important uh differs.
35:45
SPEAKER_01: And then, you know, that has larger uh effects on you know their local culture or or or whatever it is.
35:53
SPEAKER_01: But at the very root of it, it tends to be very similar.
35:57
SPEAKER_01: They're actually very niche values that are important to everyone.
36:01
SPEAKER_01: And I like the the the way you translate, or not translate, but uh bring that as a commentary on open-mindedness as well, because uh it's kind of like there's that root, which is the value, and then there are like these impediments in between the next steps, which are like how it affects the culture, and like if you get stuck with how your culture or why your culture tells you important, for some reason you can't bond with the person over the like the root of it.
36:29
SPEAKER_01: Does that make sense?
36:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, totally.
36:31
SPEAKER_00: I think that we're getting actually back to anthropology.
36:35
SPEAKER_00: Um, one of the things that really attracted it, attracted me to it is I mentioned that I had a lot of social anxiety growing up.
36:42
SPEAKER_00: Um anthropology really helped me understand that the only thing that's really different between people is their worldview, but like that doesn't like the fundamentally we're still all humans.
36:59
SPEAKER_00: Um and it also made me realize that the ways that we interact with each other are just systems that can be studied and understood, which is very comforting to someone with social anxieties.
37:10
SPEAKER_00: I think that like you can ultimately understand what's going on and be able to like kind of read the room.
37:19
SPEAKER_00: You believe just the way that you can read a book.
37:21
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yes.
37:23
SPEAKER_00: I distinctly remember sitting down.
37:25
SPEAKER_00: Um, this is pre-anthropology.
37:28
SPEAKER_00: This was when I was in high school, kind of at the height of my anxiety.
37:32
SPEAKER_00: Sitting down with a bunch of like teen magazines and Cosmo and like flipping through it and being like, okay, these are what young people talk about.
37:40
SPEAKER_00: Um, this is how young these these this is how young people dress.
37:43
SPEAKER_00: Like, here are things that I should care about and I should just fake it till you make it.
37:48
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
37:49
SPEAKER_00: It totally works.
37:52
SPEAKER_01: So when was then the point at which you decide that that was the incorrect way to go about it?
38:00
SPEAKER_01: And it sounds like now your perspective is more on as opposed to what society or aspects of society are telling you are right or wrong to think about.
38:11
SPEAKER_01: It seems like you've now turned towards what like a this more genuine form of self-expression as the correct way of expressing yourself.
38:22
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
38:22
SPEAKER_00: I think that I think part of it too is that uh in order to be it's it's potentially not very fair, but in order to be a successful member of society, you have to fit into a certain degree.
38:35
SPEAKER_00: Right.
38:36
SPEAKER_00: Like there are some kind of cultural compacts that we have saying that, for example, we want people to be clean, right?
38:43
SPEAKER_00: Or um we want people to have like a certain minimum level of dress or stuff like that.
38:51
SPEAKER_00: That's like kind of baseline that you just have to accept is like part of it.
38:55
SPEAKER_03: Totally.
38:56
SPEAKER_00: Is just part of the social contract.
38:59
SPEAKER_00: And I think that a lot of what I was doing back then was like learning like here are the things that other people care about, and it will be easier for them to relate to me if I can discuss these things with them.
39:11
SPEAKER_00: And I still think that's true.
39:12
SPEAKER_00: Like, I still talk about sports with people.
39:15
SPEAKER_00: I don't really care that much about sports, but I'm happy to talk about them.
39:18
SPEAKER_00: I understand what four downs means now.
39:21
SPEAKER_01: That's cool.
39:22
SPEAKER_00: So it's a tool, it's definitely a tool, but I think the moment that I realized that I think when I started to kind of like turn internally and like think like, do I really believe this thing, or is this just something that someone has told me to believe?
39:35
SPEAKER_00: Is when I started working for that peace activist.
39:37
SPEAKER_00: His name was Coleman McCarthy.
39:40
SPEAKER_00: And it was uh it was, I think at the time I was like trying to figure out how to be like internally consistent when it came to abortion, the death penalty, and vegetarianism.
40:00
SPEAKER_00: Um so you know, light topics for a 17-year-old.
40:06
SPEAKER_00: Um, and I don't wanna I don't wanna like get into exactly what I believe or anything, but like just trying to think about those things and trying to decide like, do I believe this because so my family's from South America, um, not surprisingly to anyone Catholic.
40:23
SPEAKER_00: Um as like, do I believe these things because I was raised in the Catholic Church?
40:30
SPEAKER_00: Do I believe these things because my parents are lapsed Catholics?
40:35
SPEAKER_00: Do I believe these things because I go to a very liberal high school?
40:39
SPEAKER_00: Like, I don't, I don't know.
40:40
SPEAKER_00: Like, why do I believe the things that I do?
40:42
SPEAKER_00: Totally make sense with how I view the world.
40:46
SPEAKER_00: Um and it was, I don't know.
40:49
SPEAKER_00: I think everyone's a mess at 18.
40:51
SPEAKER_01: Sure.
40:51
SPEAKER_01: But I think it's I think and it's I think that's probably the key though, is it's um sometimes I think we go too far by in we skip the step of why do I think this?
41:05
SPEAKER_01: And instead we say, society told me to think this, therefore it's wrong.
41:09
SPEAKER_01: Right?
41:09
SPEAKER_01: There's this middle step that you're talking about, which is well, why who taught me this?
41:15
SPEAKER_01: Why do I why do I think this?
41:17
SPEAKER_01: And then you can decide from that perspective of like, all right, well, not pushing that away or taking it in without any thought.
41:26
SPEAKER_01: Now do I think this is right or wrong?
41:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
41:28
SPEAKER_00: And I still find stuff that I I encounter stuff all the time that I have just taken for granted.
41:34
SPEAKER_00: And then one day I'm like, is that true?
41:37
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
41:38
SPEAKER_00: And I think that that's actually something that's a gift that academia gives people.
41:42
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
41:43
SPEAKER_00: Um, I know a lot of people today, there's like a very strong anti-intellectual streak in portions of the United States.
41:51
SPEAKER_00: Um, but I actually think that that's one of the most important things that you can get from school is critical independent thought.
41:58
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
41:58
SPEAKER_01: Um I would say it's the only thing.
42:00
SPEAKER_00: Really, yes.
42:01
SPEAKER_00: And being able to being able to to factually um evaluate evidence and information for yourself.
42:11
SPEAKER_00: Um yes.
42:13
SPEAKER_01: This is actually something that I'd really like your perspective on, which is coming from a scientific background, um, a master's in um physical anthropology, uh, is it biological anthropology?
42:28
SPEAKER_00: It's either or physical anthropology is kind of the older way people say it, but uh people will know what you're talking about.
42:35
SPEAKER_01: First, I would love to know how you go about explaining things you find in science that may not be like that require some form of scientific or or understanding of the data behind it.
42:52
SPEAKER_01: How do you go about explaining those things kind of in layman to people with who don't necessarily have a uh a critical or analytical thought processes?
43:03
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, definitely.
43:04
SPEAKER_00: I get what you're saying.
43:05
SPEAKER_00: And just some background for your listeners.
43:07
SPEAKER_00: I have a podcast called the Anthrobiology Podcast.
43:10
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
43:10
SPEAKER_00: And that's probably why you're asking me this question, because I essentially do science communication where I talk to researchers who are very deep in their field and they have all kinds of crazy specialties.
43:23
SPEAKER_00: Like I talked to Tanya Smith, who studies teeth, or Daniel Lieberman, who studies mismatch diseases, which is a mismatch between our evolutionary environment and our modern environment and how that affects us and our health.
43:36
SPEAKER_00: But these are things that are not necessarily easy to understand.
43:40
SPEAKER_01: Very niche, yeah.
43:41
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
43:42
SPEAKER_00: I think that I expect anyone who is listening to a show like that or listening to me has a very has like a base level of curiosity.
43:52
SPEAKER_00: Like they're interested, and that's why they've chosen to seek this kind of thing out.
43:56
SPEAKER_00: And I think that that's one of the most important.
44:01
SPEAKER_00: Things that you that is kind of like fundamental in order to talking to people about this.
44:07
SPEAKER_00: They have to have that kind of like we were talking about, that open mind from the start.
44:11
SPEAKER_00: From there, a lot of it is just defining terms.
44:14
SPEAKER_00: I think that that's what a lot of people don't realize about academia is that it's just increasingly difficult vocabulary tests.
44:23
SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
44:24
SPEAKER_00: Right?
44:25
SPEAKER_00: It's not, it's almost never concepts that you can't really understand.
44:28
SPEAKER_00: It can always, always relate back to something that you already understand.
44:32
SPEAKER_02: Right.
44:32
SPEAKER_00: Um and actually, I think that this is a feeling that um teachers have that I certainly have been guilty of in the past as well, where they have a hard time relating what they're trying to say to people to where those people actually are and understanding that people learn in different ways, right?
44:51
SPEAKER_00: So some people learn best through metaphors, some people learn best through actually touching things, some people need um diagrams, all sorts of different things.
45:00
SPEAKER_00: Uh so when you're doing a solely verbal communication, like you are via podcast, I think it's really, really important to A, define your terms, always, always define your terms to make sure that everyone is on the same page about what it is you're talking about.
45:16
SPEAKER_00: And B, provide as much color as you can and always try and bring it back to something that people already connect with and know.
45:27
SPEAKER_00: Um, I think that's where a lot of scientists kind of fail to make the leap, right?
45:33
SPEAKER_00: Because they're so deep in whatever it is that they do that they that they forget, like someone might not know what an ulna is, right?
45:41
SPEAKER_00: Or someone might not know about uh, I don't know, like dental pulp.
45:47
SPEAKER_00: Like I, you know, there's just like all kinds of things or isotope analysis.
45:52
SPEAKER_00: Like I I said isotope analysis earlier.
45:55
SPEAKER_00: I didn't even explain what that was.
45:56
SPEAKER_00: Different ratios of elements, and it's because like different numbers of uh of little things inside your atom, like it's it's like a whole thing, right?
46:05
SPEAKER_00: Totally.
46:06
SPEAKER_01: No, it's a it's a it's a the those are two.
46:09
SPEAKER_01: I mean, just kind of summarizing.
46:10
SPEAKER_01: I think those are two really good ways about go or going about it.
46:13
SPEAKER_01: One is like you have to define your terms, and then the process of defining your terms really requires uh the person, the expert, or whoever is more of the expert to explain or give examples, like you're saying, give color.
46:29
SPEAKER_01: I think that's something that really frustrated me in um just looking at it at academia was a lot of the people I met.
46:38
SPEAKER_01: It's it's a very um it's much more showy than people would would expect.
46:46
SPEAKER_01: You it it's it's not showy in like glitz and glamour, but the way you it's it's all about language and the way you speak.
46:52
SPEAKER_01: Um, and so you'll I think it's quite it's like upsetting to a point when you go and talk to someone and it's very clear that they're going to use their niche vocabulary without trying to help you or explain to you uh just kind of expecting you to know all of these terms because it doesn't help anyone.
47:16
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
47:17
SPEAKER_00: People can get super narrow-minded in academia too, and there's there's a lot more politics than a lot of people realize.
47:24
SPEAKER_00: You know, a lot of people are fighting.
47:26
SPEAKER_00: We were talking earlier, we're talking about getting grants and like constantly being worried about money and prestige and publishing.
47:34
SPEAKER_00: And that can cause people to be very petty and very narrow-minded and like very protective of what they have, because if going back to being to being open to feedback, because if they're proven wrong, suddenly they don't have money for the research anymore and they're they're done, you know.
47:49
SPEAKER_00: So like people get very entrenched in a way that's unhealthy, I think.
47:54
SPEAKER_01: Oh, I mean, I've uh from former colleagues, I've heard stories of um professors not recommending their PhD students to um any schools or any other labs that would be competitive to them.
48:09
SPEAKER_01: They would only recommend them if it was in a field where it wouldn't directly compete with the papers that they were publishing.
48:15
SPEAKER_01: And it's pretty crazy, right?
48:16
SPEAKER_01: Like that's the mentor-student relationship is has this barrier that's completely created by grant money because it's the prestige gives you grant money and that you know gives you a job.
48:27
SPEAKER_01: Um, and like the face value, it's it's a very interesting uh psychology experiment, academia.
48:33
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, no, definitely.
48:34
SPEAKER_00: I talk about it a lot on my podcast.
48:36
SPEAKER_00: It's one of the things that I try to bring up.
48:38
SPEAKER_00: I actually just did a show with a uh PhD candidate where we just talked about like things that they don't tell undergraduates before they apply to grad school.
48:46
SPEAKER_00: Like they don't tell you about this nonsense.
48:48
SPEAKER_00: They're like, it's gonna be great, you're gonna get to study exactly what you want to study, and you're gonna get to do research, and no one tells you about all the rest of it and like some of the like really toxic behaviors that end up happening that some people are trying to address, but the more people that know about it, the more that it's brought into light, the easier that's gonna be.
49:05
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
49:06
SPEAKER_01: No, I agree.
49:07
SPEAKER_01: Um, that's kind of a good place.
49:10
SPEAKER_01: I feel like that that did tie back in quite a bit of what we were talking about at the beginning because we've talked about actually a ton of really, really fascinating stuff.
49:17
SPEAKER_01: I really appreciate all your stories um or your initial stories about uh physical anthropology.
49:24
SPEAKER_01: I think I didn't really fully capture uh, I guess the scope of the purpose behind it.
49:30
SPEAKER_01: And it's also interesting to hear kind of the the different facets of anthropology in general.
49:35
SPEAKER_01: And there's so much there, and it ties then into like sociology and psychology and and and how we've evolved to who we are today.
49:43
SPEAKER_01: I think one thing that uh is uh uh been on my mind for the majority of this is that there's this uh you have this side of you that is created by the the desire for feedback and academics, but I I would say I would name it as like curiosity.
50:04
SPEAKER_01: It seems like that's a very central aspect or part of the way you present yourself is like as a curious person.
50:13
SPEAKER_01: Is that something that you identify with, like as I am a curious person, or is it like how does that play into it?
50:20
SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah, definitely.
50:21
SPEAKER_00: And I've had conversations with um my best friend about like like I don't think that I could date someone who isn't curious, like that would be really hard for me.
50:32
SPEAKER_00: I think then I would be bored, circling back to never being bored.
50:39
SPEAKER_01: How do you then decide if a person is curious or not?
50:46
SPEAKER_00: They don't I think that one of the things that is really important to realize is that people can be interesting and curious in ways that are different from you.
50:56
SPEAKER_00: And I've dated people who have minds that work really differently for me, which is also something that I really appreciate, right?
51:01
SPEAKER_00: Like I've gone out with people who are very like mechanically oriented and who are like good at fixing things and like good working with their hands.
51:10
SPEAKER_00: And I would totally cut off a finger in a saw blade if you gave me a heavy power tool.
51:16
SPEAKER_00: Um and like they just see the world in a very different way.
51:20
SPEAKER_00: And so, like, even though their interests are different than mine, like they're constantly like trying to learn and put things together in different ways.
51:28
SPEAKER_00: On the same side, like I've also dated people who are very interested in art, you know, which is something I'm more interested in by nature.
51:36
SPEAKER_00: Um, but they're interested in it into a degree that I'm not.
51:39
SPEAKER_00: And so, like, we have these really interesting conversations that revolve around art and science and how like the interplay between the two and history.
51:48
SPEAKER_00: I think honestly, if you find a curious person, like they're always going to be interested in picking up a new bit of knowledge.
51:55
SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
51:56
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
51:56
SPEAKER_01: It's the way it's both the content of the questions they ask, but also the manner in which they ask them, I think is a pretty defining feature.
52:05
SPEAKER_00: The fact that they want to ask questions at all.
52:08
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, is yeah.
52:10
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
52:11
SPEAKER_01: It's it's uh pretty painful to have conversations with people that won't ask questions.
52:16
SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah.
52:18
SPEAKER_01: A lack of a lack of desire to I don't know, be in the in the in the in the place in the conversation or to get or just to get to know you.
52:26
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I don't like carrying the conversation.
52:29
SPEAKER_01: No, and I've I've really appreciated you having on.
52:31
SPEAKER_01: This has been a really fun conversation for me.
52:34
SPEAKER_00: I'm so glad.
52:35
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
52:36
SPEAKER_01: No, I just have one last question, which is if looking back over the conversation, um, there's one message you think that the listeners could take away from it.
52:47
SPEAKER_00: Hmm.
52:48
SPEAKER_00: It's a big question because it's been a very big conversation.
52:51
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there can be multiple.
52:53
SPEAKER_00: I think definitely be curious, but also try to be consistent with yourself, with others.
53:06
SPEAKER_00: Um, and that can kind of go a lot of that can mean a lot of different things, right?
53:12
SPEAKER_00: But one thing that I've noticed is that sometimes we tend to treat others better than we treat ourselves.
53:19
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's very sad because we are deserving of the same respect that we give others.
53:25
SPEAKER_00: Um, and the flip side of that is of course, sometimes treat sometimes people treat themselves much better than others, and that's also very bad.
53:32
SPEAKER_00: Um, but kind of always be curious, always be questioning like, why am I feeling this thing?
53:38
SPEAKER_00: How can I be better?
53:39
SPEAKER_00: How can I be better for other people?
53:41
SPEAKER_00: How can I be better for myself?
53:44
SPEAKER_00: It all comes down to curiosity and kind of like just constantly asking those questions.
53:49
SPEAKER_01: Love it.
53:50
SPEAKER_01: That's awesome.
53:50
SPEAKER_01: Thank you very much.
53:51
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no problem.
53:58
SPEAKER_01: I want to thank Gabby for that conversation.
54:01
SPEAKER_01: I really enjoyed learning more about the field of anthropology, along with her stories about her professors, Kennewick man, and some of anthropology's surprisingly dark roots.
54:10
SPEAKER_01: Likewise, we touched on two subjects that I really love talking about.
54:14
SPEAKER_01: First, we discussed the way she has switched the intention behind her pursuits from the perspective of the job or career to be gained, to the perspective of the morals and values to be gained.
54:25
SPEAKER_01: To be completely honest, that is entirely what this podcast is about.
54:29
SPEAKER_01: Redefining success by defining the values in our lives that are important.
54:34
SPEAKER_01: Second, the clear foundation of this chat was the idea of curiosity.
54:39
SPEAKER_01: It is something that Gabby embodies and something that I admire about her.
54:43
SPEAKER_01: Curiosity is all about not accepting what is in front of you, no matter how tempting, without first asking the question, why?
54:51
SPEAKER_01: Society teaches us many things.
54:54
SPEAKER_01: Some of them help us live our lives smoothly and successfully, and some of them are wrong and need to be fixed.
55:00
SPEAKER_01: But it is up to every individual, up to you and to me, to decide what those are.
55:06
SPEAKER_01: It makes me wonder what aspects of my life, what habits and thoughts that I have, that I've been leaving untouched, unwilling to ask why I do them or why I have them, and if they're truly being done with my best intentions.
55:19
SPEAKER_01: Maybe it makes you wonder the same thing.
55:22
SPEAKER_01: Thanks for listening.
55:24
SPEAKER_01: If you liked this episode of Seeking Authenticity, that's freaking awesome.
55:28
SPEAKER_01: All I want to ask of you, the listener, in return for the time and effort I put into making it, is that you take a deep breath.
55:36
SPEAKER_01: I mean really breathe.
55:38
SPEAKER_01: Breathe so that it stretches out your shoulders and your back and your chest and pushes out your stomach.
55:44
SPEAKER_01: No more of these shallow bullshit breaths.
55:46
SPEAKER_01: They're barely keeping you alive, my friend.
55:48
SPEAKER_01: And after you exhale, go out and soak up today.
55:52
SPEAKER_01: Because in the end, your actions and the way they interact with the world and the people around you right now are all you have in this life.
56:00
SPEAKER_01: So be authentic with them.
56:02
SPEAKER_01: Peace.