Latest / The Knife: A True Crime Podcast / Off Record: A Conversation with Dusty Turner

Transcript

Off Record: A Conversation with Dusty Turner · The Knife: A True Crime Podcast

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.
• 0:05
  Speaker 2: The claims and opinions in this podcast are those of
• 0:07
  Speaker 2: the speaker and do not necessarily represent The Knife or
• 0:10
  Speaker 2: Exactly Right Media.
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: As a note, we recorded this interview at the end
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: of March, Dusty had been released on parole, and then
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: two days before the launch of this episode, we were
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: notified that Dusty had been arrested for a parole violation.
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: We were not told any more information other than that
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: we will let you know if we learn more. Welcome
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: to the Knife Off Record. I'm Patia Eton, I'm Hannah Smith.
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: Last week we spoke with Aaron Lahman. Aarin had been
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: advocating for the release of Dusty Turner, who at the
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: time was serving an eighty two year sentence for the
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: nineteen ninety five murder of Jennifer Evans. If you haven't
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: yet listened to that episode, we suggest going back and
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: listening to that episode before listening to this one, because
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: in March of twenty twenty six, three months after our
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: initial conversation with Aaron, Dusty walked out of prison. So
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: today we're speaking with Dusty about his decades long fight
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: for freedom and his new life on the outside. Let's
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: get into it. Hi, Dusty, welcome to the Knife.
• 1:30
  Speaker 3: Well, thank you, I appreciate it, and I'm glad to
• 1:33
  Speaker 3: be here.
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we were so glad to be speaking with you today.
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: When this comes out. Basically, we will have just aired
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: the episode the week before that we did with Aaron.
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: For that episode, we relied on Aaron's information as well
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: as we looked at court documents and did research and
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: put the story together. So our audience will have just
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: heard about the murder of Jennifer Evans on June eighteenth,
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: nineteen ninety five, and then they will have heard Aaron
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: speaking on your behalf and about your long search for justice,
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: and she did a great job of walking us through
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: all of that. That interview was in December of twenty
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: twenty five. We're now in March of twenty twenty six,
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: and when we left that interview, you were still in prison.
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: So can you give us an update on where you
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: are now.
• 2:27
  Speaker 3: I was released from prison on parole on March fifth,
• 2:32
  Speaker 3: So I've been staying in a beautiful place up in
• 2:35
  Speaker 3: northwestern Virginia, a friend's place, and it's a very large
• 2:40
  Speaker 3: property and they were so gracious to allow me to
• 2:42
  Speaker 3: stay here, and I plan to be here for just
• 2:45
  Speaker 3: a couple months and then I'll be returning back to
• 2:49
  Speaker 3: my home state of Indiana.
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: And how did it feel to be paroled?
• 2:55
  Speaker 3: They were kind of mixed emotions. It's just number one,
• 2:58
  Speaker 3: it's inadequate, And I hate to say it necessarily like that,
• 3:03
  Speaker 3: because I am grateful, especially to the board members who
• 3:05
  Speaker 3: granted me parole. I'm very grateful, especially to one specific
• 3:09
  Speaker 3: board member who really had the courage to state publicly
• 3:14
  Speaker 3: that not only should I be granted parole, but that
• 3:18
  Speaker 3: I should never have been in prison to begin with.
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I actually was watching that live when it happened,
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: and I thought that was a really striking moment.
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, how long were you in prison?
• 3:33
  Speaker 3: I was in prison for thirty years and nine months.
• 3:39
  Speaker 3: Literally a month ago, I could tell you very specifically
• 3:42
  Speaker 3: the amount of days that I've been in prison, and
• 3:45
  Speaker 3: it was like eleven thousand, two hundred and ten days.
• 3:48
  Speaker 3: I think it was something like that. But since I've
• 3:50
  Speaker 3: been released, I've been really just overwhelmed with just everything.
• 3:55
  Speaker 3: And I know it may be hard to comprehend of
• 3:58
  Speaker 3: what it's like to live in that environment. For you, know,
• 4:02
  Speaker 3: over three decades and then just all of a sudden,
• 4:05
  Speaker 3: I'm out under the open sky and just everything's just
• 4:09
  Speaker 3: so much. It's just a lot, you know, coming at
• 4:11
  Speaker 3: me from all different directions and then just overwhelming my senses.
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I bet it can be overwhelming in the good
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: but also just like generally, it's a lot to take in.
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: Even if it's all good, it's just so different, probably
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: than the last thirty years.
• 4:25
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely, And I'm not complaining, right, I'm not complaining
• 4:29
  Speaker 3: because I'm enjoying every moment out here. But i haven't
• 4:33
  Speaker 3: looked backwards a lot, and I'm going to, but I'm
• 4:35
  Speaker 3: just really trying to get my feet on the ground.
• 4:38
  Speaker 3: So it's unbelievable that I'm sitting here and I've not
• 4:41
  Speaker 3: even been out a whole month, and I couldn't recall
• 4:44
  Speaker 3: very specifically how many, you know, months I have been
• 4:48
  Speaker 3: in prison, because it was very significant to me then
• 4:51
  Speaker 3: before I walked out, Right, Yeah, I bet. Yeah.
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: I want to give people a little more context because
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: they listen to the episode, but it's been a week
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: since they've heard it. So you were sentenced to first
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: degree murders that correct abduction with the intent to defile file,
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: and you were sentenced eighty two years in prison, which
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: was notably ten years longer than Billy Brown was sentenced.
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: And I think that's important to point out the convictions
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: because I wanted to get into some more specifics about
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: the abduction to defile and that charge, which ended up
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: adding a lot of time. You know, So you were
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: sentenced in was it nineteen ninety six?
• 5:35
  Speaker 3: Right, convicted and sentence in ninety six. I was arrested
• 5:38
  Speaker 3: mid ninety five.
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: Right, Okay, So I just want to get people that background.
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: And then it wasn't even that long. I mean, anytime
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: in prison, I'm sure is quite long, feeling, But it
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: was like nineteen ninety nine when Billy Brown started to
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: sort of spread these rumors and tell people, including his
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: attorney that he liked because a big part of your
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: conviction was his testimony that he lied and he said
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: that you guys killed Jennifer together and it was his
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: whole plan. And he basically came out and said, no,
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: I did it. I did it. I lied. I drug
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: Dusty into this. And so I think that that's something
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: really to highlight when we start talking about your parole
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: and about your long search to get this overturned or
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: for justice, because that was nineteen ninety nine. We're in
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: twenty twenty six, so twenty six, twenty seven years that
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: your innocence has been proclaimed, and yet it took a
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: really long time.
• 6:35
  Speaker 3: Right, can I just added in nineteen ninety nine, as
• 6:38
  Speaker 3: you mentioned, Billy Brown had become a Christian in one
• 6:42
  Speaker 3: of the prisoners he was at, and I was later
• 6:44
  Speaker 3: told that he confessed to his family and to his lawyer.
• 6:47
  Speaker 3: His lawyer apparently told him that he needs to be
• 6:50
  Speaker 3: quiet and that he still has a chance to have
• 6:53
  Speaker 3: some kind of reprieve from an appeals process, and he
• 6:57
  Speaker 3: should just keep his mouth shut. And so it was
• 7:00
  Speaker 3: two thousand and two that I found out that he
• 7:03
  Speaker 3: had confessed to his family and to his lawyer, and
• 7:06
  Speaker 3: then that started a ball rolling. And of course, and
• 7:08
  Speaker 3: you said, profess my innocence. But from day one when
• 7:13
  Speaker 3: I told the detectives what happened to Jennifer Evans, that
• 7:17
  Speaker 3: day forward, I've just told the truth of what happened.
• 7:20
  Speaker 3: And also for context, Billy Brown felt like that I
• 7:23
  Speaker 3: had broke what was referred to as the Sealk Code
• 7:28
  Speaker 3: by telling the authorities what happened, what he did, and
• 7:31
  Speaker 3: so therefore he felt like he should bring me down
• 7:35
  Speaker 3: with him because I violated that code, as he would say, so.
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: That was the justification in his mind for lying.
• 7:42
  Speaker 3: That was a just case. So in two thousand and eight,
• 7:46
  Speaker 3: we had filed a rid of actual innocence and we
• 7:50
  Speaker 3: went back to the same court in which I was convicted,
• 7:53
  Speaker 3: so that the judge there could determine if Billy Brown's
• 7:56
  Speaker 3: confession was truthful credible, specifically in that he acted alone
• 8:03
  Speaker 3: and that I had no role in the murder or
• 8:07
  Speaker 3: in the restraining of the victim. Was the specific wording
• 8:10
  Speaker 3: the judge at that court, the circuit court where I
• 8:13
  Speaker 3: was convicted. He ruled that that's what it was right,
• 8:16
  Speaker 3: that Billy Brown did act alone, that I had no
• 8:18
  Speaker 3: role in the murder or in the restraining the victim.
• 8:21
  Speaker 3: And so from that ruling led to the Court of
• 8:24
  Speaker 3: Appeals to grant me actual innocence right, And it was
• 8:28
  Speaker 3: the first time that the Court of Appeals had granted
• 8:30
  Speaker 3: someone in Virginia throughout the whole of history. Believe it
• 8:33
  Speaker 3: or not, it was the first time that the Court
• 8:35
  Speaker 3: of Appeals granted someone actual innocence. Now they've overturned cases,
• 8:40
  Speaker 3: plenty of cases in the past, but they've never used
• 8:42
  Speaker 3: that phrase that this man is actually innocent, So that
• 8:47
  Speaker 3: was a first. But you know, later it was appealed
• 8:51
  Speaker 3: and it went on up to the Supreme Court. Eventually
• 8:54
  Speaker 3: my release was overturned on a technicality of a single
• 8:58
  Speaker 3: word that was restrained or restraining. My whole life hung
• 9:03
  Speaker 3: on the balance of that single argument.
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: So they were saying, we're arguing that in theory, you
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: could have abducted her without restraining her.
• 9:12
  Speaker 3: The theory at trial was that Jennifer was taken from
• 9:16
  Speaker 3: the parking lot, you know, against her will, to some
• 9:19
  Speaker 3: other undisclosed location, and it was the theory was created
• 9:23
  Speaker 3: from Billy Brown's story after they told him that I
• 9:28
  Speaker 3: had revealed to the authorities what had happened. His story,
• 9:32
  Speaker 3: and this is what they used as their theory to
• 9:34
  Speaker 3: convict me, was that Jennifer was taken out of the
• 9:37
  Speaker 3: parking lot to some other location, undisclosed, and killed in
• 9:40
  Speaker 3: some other location. So in two thousand and eight they
• 9:44
  Speaker 3: created a new theory, right because this one no longer
• 9:47
  Speaker 3: held up. So it's a fact. It was a fact
• 9:51
  Speaker 3: then still a fact now that I had no role
• 9:53
  Speaker 3: in the murder or in any restraining of the victim,
• 9:55
  Speaker 3: that Billy Brown was the sole perpetrator of the murder
• 9:59
  Speaker 3: of Jennifer. Okay, so they created a theory to get
• 10:02
  Speaker 3: around a loophole, to get around those words. And so
• 10:05
  Speaker 3: again they said, okay, well it's a fact that Turner
• 10:09
  Speaker 3: so did not restrain Jennifer, then maybe a jury still
• 10:14
  Speaker 3: could believe that there was an abduction by deception without
• 10:18
  Speaker 3: the requirement of a restraint. I know that's deep and
• 10:22
  Speaker 3: kind of detailed, but that's what it was.
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: It is like kind of getting in the weeds a
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: little bit, but I think it illustrates kind of what
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: you were saying in the beginning about it's hard to
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: hear that and not feel like there's some agenda or
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: political reason to try to want to keep you in
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: prison and uphold your conviction because you've been granted at
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: this point the rid of actual innocence, and the only
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: way that can be appealed and the only way to
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: keep you behind bars at that point is this, like
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: very is this semantic argument about what restraint means, And
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: at that point you have to wonder if we're really
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: seeking justice.
• 11:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, and you see in other cases. And I
• 11:07
  Speaker 3: looked at a lot of cases in Virginia and else
• 11:10
  Speaker 3: wise of wrongfully convicted people and how they want to
• 11:14
  Speaker 3: hold onto those convictions right in the States, want to
• 11:18
  Speaker 3: hold on those convictions and go through pains to not
• 11:21
  Speaker 3: admit faults. Right. But there's also an idea that in
• 11:27
  Speaker 3: that kind of a macrocosmic idea of the justice system,
• 11:30
  Speaker 3: that it almost requires confidence in the justic system. People
• 11:34
  Speaker 3: need to be confident in the just system. So in
• 11:36
  Speaker 3: these cases of wrongful convictions and justices arise, it diminishes
• 11:41
  Speaker 3: people's confidence in the justice system as a whole, right,
• 11:46
  Speaker 3: And that's not good, you know, for the government and
• 11:49
  Speaker 3: for the just system. It's not good.
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: I think that's really insightful. And you know, having spent
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: decades working to prove your innocence and then get the
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: rint of actual innocence and researching these cases where people
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: remained in prison who shouldn't have been, how did you
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: hold on to hope during that time?
• 12:15
  Speaker 3: Yeah? I mostly held on to hope during that time. Mostly,
• 12:20
  Speaker 3: I did you know, early on, I was extremely naive,
• 12:24
  Speaker 3: having no previous experience with the judicial system whatsoever. I
• 12:28
  Speaker 3: was a person who dedicated my life to the service
• 12:31
  Speaker 3: of the country. And I was very much prepared to
• 12:35
  Speaker 3: give my life in service for this country. So I
• 12:39
  Speaker 3: assumed a lot of basic concepts that Americans have always held.
• 12:45
  Speaker 3: Deer one is that there is always justice, you know,
• 12:49
  Speaker 3: and that justice is part of the fabric of this country.
• 12:52
  Speaker 3: And again I was young, I was naive. Even after
• 12:56
  Speaker 3: being convicted, I still assumed that just over the horizon,
• 13:02
  Speaker 3: that the truth would come out, right, just over the horizon,
• 13:05
  Speaker 3: surely within another six months or another year, they're gonna
• 13:08
  Speaker 3: figure it out, or something's gonna happen. There's gonna be appeals,
• 13:11
  Speaker 3: something's going to arise to show what the truth of
• 13:14
  Speaker 3: what happened, And so I wouldn't be spending you know,
• 13:17
  Speaker 3: eternity in prison, that hope. It was just always over
• 13:21
  Speaker 3: the horizon. It was never within grass. It was in
• 13:25
  Speaker 3: two thousand and eight, two thousand and nine when they
• 13:27
  Speaker 3: did grant me the rid of actual innocence, and my
• 13:29
  Speaker 3: family and friends were popping champagne and celebrating. They knew
• 13:32
  Speaker 3: I was coming home within a matter of just days
• 13:35
  Speaker 3: or weeks at most, and then that, you know, it's
• 13:37
  Speaker 3: like a roller coaster ride. We were up on the
• 13:39
  Speaker 3: up on the high and then we just fell straight
• 13:42
  Speaker 3: down right, and it was starting over again.
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I can imagine that would be just
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: a swift drop to see rint of actual innocence and
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: then to be in the same place. I'm wondering, you know,
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: your family was advocating for you and there to support you.
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: When did this sort of group of supporters for you
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: really start to grow?
• 14:13
  Speaker 3: I think social media really helped in that. The release
• 14:17
  Speaker 3: of a documentary about my case was extremely helpful because
• 14:22
  Speaker 3: it opened up my story to a whole new demographic
• 14:26
  Speaker 3: that never would have had the opportunity to learn about it.
• 14:30
  Speaker 3: So I've had, you know, supporters over the years, but
• 14:32
  Speaker 3: it's difficult to fight uphill against such a juggernaut, you know,
• 14:40
  Speaker 3: this complex system. It's like it only shows defeats, you know,
• 14:44
  Speaker 3: and it's like there's never a victory. It's the way
• 14:47
  Speaker 3: it seems. And so all the way fast forward to
• 14:51
  Speaker 3: why was I having any mixed emotions upon being granted
• 14:54
  Speaker 3: parole Because one might assume that I should only have
• 14:57
  Speaker 3: the emotion of joy, and yet there was still a
• 15:02
  Speaker 3: part of me that was kind of sad. Not sad
• 15:05
  Speaker 3: that I'm getting out of course, I couldn't wait to
• 15:07
  Speaker 3: be with my family and friends, and I've enjoyed every
• 15:09
  Speaker 3: moment since I've been out. But her role is not
• 15:13
  Speaker 3: justice for me. It is inadequate, right, It's not justice.
• 15:19
  Speaker 3: I'm still convicted of two crimes that I did not commit,
• 15:22
  Speaker 3: and we're going to continue fighting.
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: So your ultimate goal is for those convictions themselves to
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: be overturned.
• 15:31
  Speaker 3: Absolutely.
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: I want to talk a little bit about those charges
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: and maybe the path forward and the fight to try
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: to get them overturned. And in order to do that, like,
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: I want to reflect a little bit about the trial
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: and from your perspective now looking back on everything, you know,
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: when did things start to go wrong for you in
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: a way that led to this murder charge and this
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: subduction charge?
• 16:01
  Speaker 3: Oh goodness, where do they start to go wrong? You know,
• 16:06
  Speaker 3: you could say that it started to go wrong when
• 16:08
  Speaker 3: I was having a normal evening late in June and
• 16:13
  Speaker 3: I was twenty years old, and I was with a
• 16:15
  Speaker 3: young lady, a super nice, intelligence, wonderful young lady, and
• 16:20
  Speaker 3: everything was normal, and then this monster creates extreme trauma
• 16:26
  Speaker 3: and tragedy and just the blink of an eye. So
• 16:30
  Speaker 3: that's when things truly, you know, obviously went wrong. Right,
• 16:33
  Speaker 3: But when we're talking about the convictions, you know, I'm
• 16:36
  Speaker 3: not sure we're the beginnings of how it went wrong.
• 16:40
  Speaker 3: I mean, it's snowballed.
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 16:41
  Speaker 3: Once they charged me with the crimes that they did,
• 16:44
  Speaker 3: it was like they just from that point they just
• 16:46
  Speaker 3: had to figure out how to create the evidence and
• 16:50
  Speaker 3: the story and the theory and to create all that
• 16:53
  Speaker 3: around how to convict me. Right, and then a defendant
• 17:00
  Speaker 3: and myself are relying upon whatever attorney we happened to get.
• 17:06
  Speaker 3: You know, I'm not from Virginia. I knew no one here.
• 17:09
  Speaker 3: I've had no prior experience. I didn't even think I
• 17:11
  Speaker 3: needed an attorney. That's how naive I was. Yeah, I
• 17:14
  Speaker 3: literally didn't even think I needed an attorney. Right.
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And you talked about, you know, the prosecution's argument
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: and how from your perspective, that came together they got
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: Billy's testimony and charged you and ran with this story
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: and then sort of built the case around that story.
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: This ended up being very much circumstantial trial. It really
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: hinged on Billy Brown's testimony, which we know ended up
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: being a lie, which he's come out and said as
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: a lie. The strongest argument from the state has fallen
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: through the floor because Billy Brown has come out and
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: said none of this was true. Are those kinds of
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: things arguments that you're building with your team.
• 17:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah, those and others. But you know, going back to
• 18:01
  Speaker 3: the trial, what struck me certainly at the time was
• 18:04
  Speaker 3: how they could twist things to make them seem so negative, right, yeah,
• 18:11
  Speaker 3: and every little thing they twisted and then they present
• 18:14
  Speaker 3: it to the jury things that were innocent, totally innocent.
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: Are you able to highlight any just specific moments where
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: that happened.
• 18:24
  Speaker 3: Sure, here's one example. I'll give you a couple and
• 18:27
  Speaker 3: they're kind of military related. So one is and it's
• 18:31
  Speaker 3: so silly. It's just silly. But when I was in
• 18:33
  Speaker 3: Puerto Rico doing some advanced dive training with the military. Afterwards,
• 18:38
  Speaker 3: the instructors asked us to write a evaluation of the program,
• 18:44
  Speaker 3: and he said, listen, this is for the master chief,
• 18:46
  Speaker 3: for the whomever. So, you know, basically suggested you can
• 18:50
  Speaker 3: make it kind of comical, right, it's not all serious.
• 18:53
  Speaker 3: And so I wrote an evaluation which included just some
• 18:57
  Speaker 3: lighthearted humor, right, And the prosecuting Atorney's got a hold
• 19:02
  Speaker 3: of this evaluation and presented it as if it's like
• 19:06
  Speaker 3: something serious or real or just horrible. You know, it's
• 19:10
  Speaker 3: the narrative, and so the prosecuting attorneys and maybe the
• 19:14
  Speaker 3: defense attorneys too. But it's like a game. It's nothing
• 19:16
  Speaker 3: but a game. And how do you win? How do
• 19:18
  Speaker 3: you present things? Even if you have to take them
• 19:20
  Speaker 3: out of context, it doesn't matter, right, we need to
• 19:23
  Speaker 3: present them to win. And so that's what was going on.
• 19:26
  Speaker 3: I was subject to a lot of that in the trial.
• 19:29
  Speaker 3: And it's like you said, it's circumstantial. It's all just meaningless.
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: When you were at the trial, did you think, listening
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: to the prosecution and listening to your defense, where did
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: you think the jury would land.
• 19:47
  Speaker 3: I thought that they would absolutely vote not to convict
• 19:52
  Speaker 3: me of those crimes, but to likely convict me of
• 19:56
  Speaker 3: the one underlying crime that I was guilty of. Assumed
• 20:01
  Speaker 3: that they would rule, you know, not guilty on the
• 20:04
  Speaker 3: two crimes I was actually guilt convicted of, but to
• 20:08
  Speaker 3: declare me guilty of the one crime that I was
• 20:11
  Speaker 3: guilty of, which was accessory after the fact of the
• 20:14
  Speaker 3: felony right and which the punishment for that at the
• 20:19
  Speaker 3: time carried up to twelve months in jail, and I
• 20:23
  Speaker 3: was guilty of that. I am guilty of that, so
• 20:25
  Speaker 3: therefore I assume that that's what they would find me
• 20:27
  Speaker 3: guilty of.
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm glad you said that, because, you know, I
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: want to talk about Jennifer Evans for just a moment.
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: I think that in wrongful conviction cases, they're so complex
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: because what happens is that you have a victim in
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: an original case, and then you create another victim by
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: sending them to Prism for something they didn't do right.
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: And I think we're all, you know, we should be
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: able to understand and hold space for both of those victims,
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: and sometimes people have a hard time doing that. You know,
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: they conflate maybe your release with being unjust for Jennifer
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: Evans or somehow you know, as not justice for her,
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: which I understand the emotional response to that. And I
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: also think it's really important not to skate over or
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: minimize the harm that was done to her. She was murdered,
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: the harm that was done to her family and friends,
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: it's horrible. But as I said, I also believe that
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: you're a victim because you were wrongfully convicted, you know,
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: and so it's important to like be mindful of both.
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: But I'm curious. You know, the many years that you
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: were in prison, I imagine you reflected a lot on what
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: happened that evening and what happened to Jennifer, And I'm
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: just wondering, like what that reflection has looked like for
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: you when you think about Jennifer and her family.
• 21:51
  Speaker 3: Yeah. So I'll preface this with the fact that one
• 21:55
  Speaker 3: of the Pro Bowl members asked me, on behalf of
• 21:58
  Speaker 3: the Evans family and the love the ones of Jennifer,
• 22:02
  Speaker 3: that I not speak about her, right, okay, And I
• 22:06
  Speaker 3: think that that comes from a place of, you know,
• 22:11
  Speaker 3: the deep sorrow and harm that her family has endured
• 22:15
  Speaker 3: and continue to endure. And so I try to walk
• 22:18
  Speaker 3: that fence of respecting. You know, first of all, I'm
• 22:22
  Speaker 3: going to, of course respect their family and loved ones, because,
• 22:27
  Speaker 3: as you pointed out, you know, what happened to her
• 22:30
  Speaker 3: is a one complete travesty. There's no way to overstate that, right,
• 22:36
  Speaker 3: And for me, in the position that I was in,
• 22:39
  Speaker 3: it was difficult to kind of fully grieve that which
• 22:45
  Speaker 3: I experienced, which was the loss of the life of
• 22:48
  Speaker 3: a young lady at the hands of someone who I
• 22:51
  Speaker 3: had been training with for a year and a half,
• 22:54
  Speaker 3: and so in that environment and under the conditions and
• 22:58
  Speaker 3: being wrongfully convicted, it was and still is kind of
• 23:02
  Speaker 3: difficult to fully grasp or grieve the loss of her life.
• 23:09
  Speaker 3: I don't know if that makes sense. Yeah, yeah, but
• 23:13
  Speaker 3: also again, I do want to make sure that I'm
• 23:16
  Speaker 3: respecting the wishes of her loved ones. Yeah, I would
• 23:20
  Speaker 3: love to speak about her more, but I'm not going
• 23:22
  Speaker 3: to because of that. I would just say that she
• 23:25
  Speaker 3: was a completely innocent young lady who did not obviously
• 23:29
  Speaker 3: did not deserve any harm to come up upon her,
• 23:32
  Speaker 3: you know.
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, No, I appreciate. I think that's very thoughtful the
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: way that you've spoken about it. And it also makes
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: sense to me that this experience is like really layered
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: for you because this changed the course of your life
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: as well. I don't know if this is a rude
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: question to ask, but I'm just curious if you ever
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: ended up speaking with Billy Brown again or saw him.
• 23:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's not a rude one question. Back in ninety six,
• 24:03
  Speaker 3: I saw him walking through we'll just say the hallway,
• 24:07
  Speaker 3: I guess of the jail. And then what in two
• 24:10
  Speaker 3: thousand and eight, I was in the courtroom when he
• 24:13
  Speaker 3: testified for about four hours on the stand, and I
• 24:17
  Speaker 3: sat there and endured and watched him testify in two
• 24:21
  Speaker 3: thousand and eight. And that's it, right. So he has
• 24:24
  Speaker 3: written maybe two letters, I think, to my mother begging
• 24:28
  Speaker 3: for forgiveness. I think that's about it. I haven't had
• 24:32
  Speaker 3: no direct conversations or communications with him at all, and
• 24:35
  Speaker 3: I don't intend to ever. I will be seeking ways
• 24:39
  Speaker 3: to at least have my own voice heard on the
• 24:43
  Speaker 3: opposition of any possibility of parole for him.
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: You feel like, even though he's come out and testified
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: that he lied and taken accountability for that, you still
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: feel like you don't see enough remorse for his initial
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: actions for the murder that he committed.
• 25:00
  Speaker 3: Not whatsoever. No, he's not And I don't know if
• 25:04
  Speaker 3: he has it in him. You know, I often referred
• 25:06
  Speaker 3: to him as a psychopath, and of course I can't
• 25:09
  Speaker 3: truly diagnose him, but a sociopath, a psychopath, I don't
• 25:13
  Speaker 3: really know. But I don't feel like he's fully internalized.
• 25:17
  Speaker 3: And I could say this because again seeing him on
• 25:20
  Speaker 3: the stand back in two thousand and eight, and then
• 25:22
  Speaker 3: I've talked to a lot of guys who have been
• 25:24
  Speaker 3: around him in prison. Right, I've been at ten different
• 25:28
  Speaker 3: institution prisons in Virginia, and some of those I've been
• 25:32
  Speaker 3: to more than once, so I've moved all around the state.
• 25:36
  Speaker 3: In these different prisons, they of course always kept he
• 25:39
  Speaker 3: and I separate, so they would never put us together
• 25:42
  Speaker 3: in in prison environment. But I came across many, many,
• 25:46
  Speaker 3: many people who had been around him in prison, and
• 25:50
  Speaker 3: they would share with me their perspective on him, and
• 25:54
  Speaker 3: you know how he carries himself and so forth. And
• 25:59
  Speaker 3: I've known of other people have spoken to him directly,
• 26:02
  Speaker 3: whether on the phone or personally, And these are people
• 26:05
  Speaker 3: on the outside speaking to him, right. And so this
• 26:09
  Speaker 3: is what I've come to, that conclusion that he hasn't
• 26:11
  Speaker 3: fully internalized the impacts of his actions.
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: In what ways did that come across to you in
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: those conversations with people who had been interacting with Billy.
• 26:22
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and some of them kind of might be subtle,
• 26:25
  Speaker 3: But the things that he has expressed again suggested to
• 26:29
  Speaker 3: me that a lot of his whole psychology is about himself.
• 26:34
  Speaker 3: He's self censored, he's self focused, and things that he
• 26:39
  Speaker 3: does or says are all about, you know, how it
• 26:43
  Speaker 3: impacts himself or how you know it could better himself.
• 26:47
  Speaker 3: All the things that I've heard concerning him over the
• 26:50
  Speaker 3: last couple of decades suggests that there's no change in
• 26:53
  Speaker 3: that mindset that he has.
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: Do you recall any specific moments or things that were
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: said to you that he had said that make you
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: feel this way?
• 27:02
  Speaker 3: So I know that more recently he has spoken to
• 27:07
  Speaker 3: a media person I don't want to name names, but
• 27:11
  Speaker 3: an a media person, and his concerns that he expressed
• 27:18
  Speaker 3: were really invalid, and they were again all about himself
• 27:23
  Speaker 3: thoughts about parole and some of these things.
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: Instead of using that opportunity to say, I'm so regretful
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: for my actions, or I've caused so much harm, I've
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: took this person away from their loved ones, he instead
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: decided to talk about his own suffering or something. Is
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: that what you mean?
• 27:42
  Speaker 3: Absolutely? Yeah, you've hit the nail on the head. And
• 27:45
  Speaker 3: that's not just this one time. This is from my understanding,
• 27:49
  Speaker 3: like every time. See, I've gone through courses of victim
• 27:53
  Speaker 3: advocacy and victim impact courses. I created offender rehabilitation program
• 27:59
  Speaker 3: that is victim focused and it has a lot of
• 28:02
  Speaker 3: elements of restorative justice principles and practices, and so I've
• 28:06
  Speaker 3: been able to really understand what it means to be victimized,
• 28:10
  Speaker 3: to be harmed. And so since I have, I've seen
• 28:15
  Speaker 3: that again going back to Billy Brown, that which he
• 28:18
  Speaker 3: has not put forth the effort and the work to do,
• 28:21
  Speaker 3: which he should be the one doing those things. Right.
• 28:24
  Speaker 3: I was going through these courses to help again create
• 28:27
  Speaker 3: this program that would help with the accountability and rehabilitation
• 28:31
  Speaker 3: of incarcerated people and people have harmed others, right, and
• 28:36
  Speaker 3: truly he should be doing those things, you know, he
• 28:38
  Speaker 3: should be really figuring out how his actions have truly
• 28:43
  Speaker 3: impacted on the wide scale all the people, you know,
• 28:45
  Speaker 3: all of Jennifer's family and friends and all of the
• 28:48
  Speaker 3: community there, and all of my family and my friends
• 28:51
  Speaker 3: and my community. And he's not really repentant for all that.
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: So you were released on parole March fifth, so earlier
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: this month, is that right?
• 29:08
  Speaker 3: That's correact.
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: I mean, after thirty almost thirty one years, can you
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: kind of paint the picture what did it feel like
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: to walk out of prison?
• 29:21
  Speaker 3: Well, the first feeling and describing all of this, I
• 29:27
  Speaker 3: would probably unfortunately use the term overwhelmed way too often.
• 29:32
  Speaker 3: But when I walked out of the prison. I was surprised,
• 29:36
  Speaker 3: I guess to first feel kind of a weight. You
• 29:40
  Speaker 3: would think that the weight would be lifted off of
• 29:42
  Speaker 3: my shoulders right walking out, but it almost felt like
• 29:45
  Speaker 3: this huge weight of just the openness, the sky and
• 29:50
  Speaker 3: the trees and everything around was just kind of bearing
• 29:53
  Speaker 3: down upon me, and I literally had a hard time breathing,
• 29:57
  Speaker 3: so I had to kind of catch my breath and
• 29:59
  Speaker 3: walking ou out, my first thoughts was to find my mother,
• 30:04
  Speaker 3: and I knew that she was out there waiting upon
• 30:07
  Speaker 3: me somewhere. You know, she's been fighting alongside me for
• 30:10
  Speaker 3: thirty one years, you know, and in a lot of ways,
• 30:13
  Speaker 3: she has been incarcerated with me during all this time.
• 30:17
  Speaker 3: And I speak about her first, but you know a
• 30:19
  Speaker 3: lot of my family members and friends too have experienced
• 30:23
  Speaker 3: a lot of these hardships with me, and though I
• 30:26
  Speaker 3: was the one physically behind the concrete and steel, they
• 30:29
  Speaker 3: too were going through ordeals that were directly related to
• 30:34
  Speaker 3: my incarceration. The warden himself wanted to walk me out.
• 30:38
  Speaker 3: He was a good guy and he wanted to make
• 30:40
  Speaker 3: sure he was the one walking me out of the prison.
• 30:43
  Speaker 3: And so I was literally in like a holding cell,
• 30:47
  Speaker 3: and I thought that it was probably going to be
• 30:48
  Speaker 3: another fifteen or twenty minutes before I actually walked out,
• 30:51
  Speaker 3: and he just pops in. He says, all right, let's go,
• 30:53
  Speaker 3: and I'm like right now. He's like, yeah, come on,
• 30:56
  Speaker 3: You're not trying to stay, are you. So he walked out,
• 30:59
  Speaker 3: you know, side by side, and I shook his hand
• 31:01
  Speaker 3: as I continued on into the parking lot, perhaps meeting
• 31:04
  Speaker 3: people kind of jump out of their car with questions
• 31:07
  Speaker 3: and cameras and stuff, and I didn't expect that right
• 31:10
  Speaker 3: there in the parking lot, but I was able to
• 31:12
  Speaker 3: see and hug and embrace my family and then also
• 31:16
  Speaker 3: my very close friends and advocates. They were all there
• 31:20
  Speaker 3: for me, and it was awesome really that all these
• 31:23
  Speaker 3: people were there. And we all convened a little later
• 31:27
  Speaker 3: in the evening at a beautiful place out in nature
• 31:31
  Speaker 3: where it was quiet, and we just had a big
• 31:33
  Speaker 3: feast and everybody just enjoyed everybody's company and everybody was
• 31:39
  Speaker 3: extremely joyous.
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I imagine that even just food outside of prison.
• 31:48
  Speaker 3: Like first, yeah, first it was the smells, right, the
• 31:52
  Speaker 3: sights I won't say first, but I guess the sights
• 31:54
  Speaker 3: were a lot and then it was the smells we
• 31:56
  Speaker 3: were just like coming at me from everywhere, and the colors,
• 32:00
  Speaker 3: the sites, and then my mother and my family had
• 32:05
  Speaker 3: brought these baskets full of fruit and nuts and all
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: kinds of foods that, of course I haven't seen in decades,
• 32:12
  Speaker 3: right there on the spot. And then getting into a
• 32:15
  Speaker 3: vehicle and driving was quite unnerving. I was in a
• 32:19
  Speaker 3: passenger seat, but it was I felt like we were going
• 32:22
  Speaker 3: one hundred and fifty miles an hour down the road.
• 32:26
  Speaker 3: I literally was bracing myself with my hands, and that
• 32:29
  Speaker 3: was a bit unnerving.
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: I mean, just cars now are probably a lot different.
• 32:34
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I was like, it's like being in a cockpit
• 32:36
  Speaker 3: of a jet airplane or something.
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: And so your sort of landing place has been a
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: friend's property in a rural area. What are your days
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: look like now?
• 32:48
  Speaker 3: Every day is a little different. This has been a
• 32:51
  Speaker 3: blessing as far as this opportunity that my friends have
• 32:54
  Speaker 3: provided to be in this very rural area because it's
• 32:58
  Speaker 3: extremely tranquil. I don't think that one could be in
• 33:02
  Speaker 3: any more tranquil spot in the world. That's what I
• 33:04
  Speaker 3: feel anyway, So, you know, fortunate to be in that position,
• 33:08
  Speaker 3: this position because things are still overwhelming, right, So I'm
• 33:12
  Speaker 3: getting over some of the things. I'm able to walk
• 33:14
  Speaker 3: into a grocery market, or I walk into a Walmart
• 33:19
  Speaker 3: once or twice now, and there's been a couple of
• 33:22
  Speaker 3: times where you know, it's just been too many people
• 33:24
  Speaker 3: and I'm just I just I got to get out
• 33:26
  Speaker 3: the out of the building. It's just kind of overwhelming.
• 33:29
  Speaker 3: But I'm learning a little bit of the technology, little
• 33:31
  Speaker 3: baby steps at a time with the phone and such.
• 33:34
  Speaker 3: But it's a super tranquil I'm fortunate in disrespect that
• 33:39
  Speaker 3: I have a lot of resources that the person typically
• 33:42
  Speaker 3: getting out of prison wouldn't have, right, and I recognize that.
• 33:45
  Speaker 3: You know, I made some friends, a lot of friends
• 33:47
  Speaker 3: on the inside. So you know, even though I was
• 33:51
  Speaker 3: wrongfully convicted, I was still a convict, right, And I
• 33:55
  Speaker 3: lived as a convict, and I had to endure nothing
• 33:59
  Speaker 3: different than what all the other convicts endure on a
• 34:03
  Speaker 3: daily basis. The struggles, the hardships, the inhumanity and the treatments.
• 34:09
  Speaker 3: You know, I endured it no more or less than
• 34:11
  Speaker 3: all those around me. Just so happens that you know
• 34:14
  Speaker 3: that I was wrongfully convicted, and I'm not the only
• 34:16
  Speaker 3: one whom I knew. I knew a couple other guys
• 34:20
  Speaker 3: were wrongfully convicted and some have since been exonerated, and
• 34:24
  Speaker 3: maybe a couple haven't. But my daily existence out here,
• 34:28
  Speaker 3: I do have a job on a farm. It's a
• 34:30
  Speaker 3: sustainable beef and pork farm, also owned by good friends
• 34:35
  Speaker 3: and real good people, extremely flexible. They allow me to
• 34:40
  Speaker 3: work when when I can, and they understand that there's
• 34:44
  Speaker 3: things I have to do, whether it's you know, setting
• 34:46
  Speaker 3: up a bank account, or trying to get my driver's
• 34:48
  Speaker 3: license or you know. You know, today I was in
• 34:52
  Speaker 3: a whole different city at a car dealership looking at
• 34:55
  Speaker 3: vehicles to purchase a vehicle. These things are things that
• 34:59
  Speaker 3: I have to do, and so fortunately I'm not in
• 35:02
  Speaker 3: a position where I have to be working also an
• 35:05
  Speaker 3: eight hour or a day or something whilst also trying to
• 35:08
  Speaker 3: get my feet on the ground.
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting to hear you walk us through all
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: of that. I mean, it makes sense, but I think
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: it's not something that I think about a lot, or
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: most people think about a lot, like all the practical
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: things you would have to do when you are released
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: from prison, like a driver's license, you know, like getting
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: all of these things set up. You know, maybe you
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: don't have an idea about what the future holds, but
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: I'm curious. You know what your hopes and dreams are
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: for where you're what you're going to be doing.
• 35:35
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and so in the long term, I don't know.
• 35:38
  Speaker 3: I really don't know. And what I am doing and
• 35:42
  Speaker 3: starting to do as I get my feet on the
• 35:45
  Speaker 3: ground is I'm going to be working with Justice Involved veterans.
• 35:51
  Speaker 3: It's kind of a niche type of work, but I
• 35:54
  Speaker 3: have a good friend in California who is the director
• 35:58
  Speaker 3: of Veterans he Veterans. His name is Ron's self, great guy.
• 36:04
  Speaker 3: He has also experienced as a justice involved veteran himself,
• 36:09
  Speaker 3: and I've been working with him now for a few years.
• 36:12
  Speaker 3: I developed a therapeutic horticulture program for veterans, specifically which
• 36:19
  Speaker 3: the program is being implemented right now in prisons in California.
• 36:24
  Speaker 3: So I'm going to be working with Ron and with
• 36:26
  Speaker 3: the Veterans Healing Veterans organization. And I've been told that
• 36:32
  Speaker 3: there may be a handful of veterans who may be
• 36:36
  Speaker 3: wrongfully convicted across the United States. And when I say
• 36:39
  Speaker 3: a handful, I was told of five or six people
• 36:42
  Speaker 3: specifically that are potentially wrongfully convicted in more veterans, and
• 36:47
  Speaker 3: so I'm going to be in the near term, I'm
• 36:50
  Speaker 3: going to be kind of researching these folks and to
• 36:53
  Speaker 3: see if indeed they might be wrongfully convicted, and then
• 36:58
  Speaker 3: if so, how is it that we'd be able to
• 37:00
  Speaker 3: help them.
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: That's great, awesome.
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I have to say, Dusty, watching the
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: parole hearing live when it was happening, it was anxious
• 37:13
  Speaker 2: for me to be watching it, and I can only
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: imagine how it must have felt for you all of
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: these years. And I'm so glad that you are getting
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: a chance that a new chapter of life, and I
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: think that you'll do something really great with it.
• 37:30
  Speaker 3: Well, I appreciate that, and I hope you're right.
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: We really appreciate you taking the time. I guess I
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: have one last question, maybe just to end on a
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: lighter note, or I'm just curious, what is your favorite
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: food to eat? Now that you can eat whatever you want?
• 37:45
  Speaker 3: So I was craving so badly. This might surprise you, perhaps,
• 37:50
  Speaker 3: but I was just craving so badly meat, real meat.
• 37:55
  Speaker 3: My sweet tooth was diminished over the years. So I
• 37:58
  Speaker 3: didn't crave this eats, although I do enjoy ice cream
• 38:01
  Speaker 3: a lot, and I do love chocolate, but my craving
• 38:07
  Speaker 3: was just for like, real food, my mother's home cooked food.
• 38:12
  Speaker 3: First night, a friend come down from New York and
• 38:15
  Speaker 3: he literally brought New York strips and we had Ribbi
• 38:19
  Speaker 3: New York strips and some other stuff. Every day, I'm
• 38:22
  Speaker 3: eating things that i haven't eaten in decades, and I'm
• 38:25
  Speaker 3: enjoying every single bit of it.
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: Well, good, I'm glad to hear it. Yeah, well, thank
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: you so much, Dusty.
• 38:31
  Speaker 3: Okay, well, I appreciate you guys, and thanks for having me.
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: So glad we were able to connect with Dusty.
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like this strange, bitter sweet feeling of like, oh,
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: this story has a little bit of a happy ending,
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: but then it's not happy. I mean, it's like, obviously
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: nothing can bring back Jennifer Evans. And Dusty has also
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: spent almost thirty one years behind bars, which is just
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: an enormous chapter of his life.
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there's no sparkly ending. It's just maybe better than
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: it could have been. It is definitely better than it
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: could have been, especially for Dusty. Right, because a lot
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: of people never get that chance. Yeah, once they are
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: in prison.
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, speaking with someone who has been released
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: on parole but has serious convictions murder, abduction, and so
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: in being paroled, we learned that he had to present
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: something called and this is standard for everyone, but his
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: conditions are more specific because of his convictions.
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: Right, Like I imagine if someone is on parole, the rules
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: that they have to follow on parole are different if
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: they've committed a violent crime versus not.
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: I would guess yeah, and Dusty, so part of the
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: home plan that he and his support system had to
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: present involved housing, finances, transportation, work, all of these things
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: to help him reintegrate into society and make sure he
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: was going to be in a place that he could
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: be safe and be successful on the outside after thirty years.
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: I mean talking about relearning things that you did before.
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: Like driving or so many things.
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: So many things. I mean, think of the change in technology,
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: that's the obvious one.
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: It was interesting to hear him talk about getting in
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: a car and how scary that was. Yeah, because I
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: guess you wouldn't spend a lot of time in a vehicle.
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: Maybe if you had to be transported, you would be
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: in a van. But probably just not that often. And
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: then suddenly you're in a little car zooming on the freeway.
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: That would be scary. It would be scary.
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: I mean even to think of, like if you're a
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: little kid and you go from a car seat to
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: like you get to sit in the front some day,
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: like it still feels like whoa yeah. And then he
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: went thirty one years and yeah, I think he compared
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: modern cars to like a spacecraft. Yeah, which, yeah, I
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: loved that. I feel like it was who was it.
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: I'm going to get this wrong. Was it my great grandmother?
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: There was someone in the family who, like during that
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: time period where it was a transition from horse and
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: carriage to vehicles, who just was like, nope, oh, never
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: never get in a car.
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: This is crazy. Who would invent this?
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: I mean, I actually love that take because as a
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: horse person, let me tell you, they're not always that reliable.
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah or safe safe I mean wow, But they don't
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: go as fast. They don't go as fast I'm not
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: going eighty miles an hour.
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: They're way easier to bail off of, you know, like
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: I don't want to jump out of my car. I've
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: bailed off of many horses. Many times. Yeah, but neither
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: one sounds fun to me. Yeah, they both hurt. Yeah,
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: that's an interesting take, Like just absolutely not.
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: I just won't be doing that. I don't know that
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: it's going to last, this invention. Yeah wow, but it
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: reminded me that a little bit because coming out into
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: the world and talking about everything was so overwhelming, and
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: even the good stuff, which makes sense to me that
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: it would just be like so much sensory input after
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: thirty years.
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: Walking into a grocery store having all those kinds of choices,
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: you know. On Dusty's team, his team of supporters has
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: a social media page and they posted a clip of
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: him walking down a grocery store aisle and he notices
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: the price of top ramen today.
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: It's like, holy cow, is top ramin just that package
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: of rama? Yeah?
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: Wait?
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: How much?
• 42:41
  Speaker 3: Is it?
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: Like a dollar twenty?
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah? Well in la I think where he was, it
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: was seventy five cents.
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: Oh, and I was like, oh, but maybe it used
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: to be ten cents yea mm hmmm. That's wild. Yeah, wild.
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: And I mean he is experiencing that feeling probably all
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: the time if he's not his house. And you know,
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: he also acknowledged his luck and his privilege to have
• 43:03
  Speaker 2: a place to stay and someone to employ him, and
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: he talked about what those opportunities mean for someone in
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: his position. It's not like most people released on parole
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: who have been convicted of a violent crime, whether they
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: have always proclaimed their innocence or not, are immediately met
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: with a safe place to land, Yeah, or any kind
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: of resources or any kind of resources. Yeah, it was
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: interesting talking to him, you know, I could see how
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: people might expect him, and he kind of acknowledged this
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: to just literally only feel gratitude, like, oh, I'm so
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: grateful to be out. And while he acknowledged he is
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: very grateful, he also was just realistic about the fact
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: that he still doesn't feel like he has justice in
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: the way that he wants it. He would love for
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: his conviction to be overturned earned because he was paroled, right,
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: this means it's still on his record, and as you
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: were talking about earlier, this means that he still has
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: all of these rules he has to follow under his parole,
• 44:10
  Speaker 2: so they're very restrictive.
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So it's not like he can just do whatever
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: he wants, live wherever he wants. He has a lot
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: of things he has to check in with someone really regularly.
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: I think that he said that travel restrictions, travel restrictions,
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: they could drop by his house at any time. And
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: I don't know how long that goes on, do you remember.
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: I don't remember, but I know he will eventually, he said,
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: be able to return to Indiana, his home state, and
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: he's looking forward to that. But you know, also he's
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: wearing the title of murderer. Yeah, for as long as
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: he has these convictions on his record, it's on his record,
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: and that means something to him, as I think I
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: would to everyone who who had said they were innocent.
• 44:52
  Speaker 2: And so I understand. Yeah, those mixed emotions. And if
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: there's one thing like speaking with so many different kinds
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: of peace, people who have found themselves going through the
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: criminal justice system, or even just knowing someone who has
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: has shown me, it's that so many things can be
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: true at the same time. Yeah, there can be this
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: incredible loss of this young woman, Jennifer Evans, this incredible
• 45:16
  Speaker 2: pain that her family probably still feels, or anyone who's
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: lost a loved one in a violent way still feels.
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: But it can also be true that we got it
• 45:25
  Speaker 2: wrong in the trial and that there was an additional
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: victim for that reason. Yeah, And from my perspective, Dusty Turner,
• 45:34
  Speaker 2: is that additional victim. He should have done time for
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: accessory after the fact he did help move her body, Yes,
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: and he acknowledged that he's guilty of that.
• 45:44
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: I think it's also these conversations that we are in
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: all the time. For our work has shown me that
• 45:50
  Speaker 2: you can think all day long how you would react
• 45:52
  Speaker 2: to a situation, but until you're in that situation, you
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: really don't know.
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because we've had a few episodes lately that people
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: have been given longer sentences than maybe they should have been,
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: or there's questions about was that just we've talked about
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: juveniles getting sentenced to life or to really long sentences,
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: and I think we try to always explain this, but
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: sometimes we do get people reacting that, you know, maybe
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: we're not giving enough empathy towards the victims or somehow
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: overlooking the victims. And that's never where our head is
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: at all. You know, as you said, not only is
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: it possible, but I think it's required that we look
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: at things in a way where we understand that it's complex. Right,
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: Like I always go back to one of our really
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: early episodes, Jennifer Thompson, and something she said to us
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: was that putting the wrong person in prison is never justice,
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: And that's so true. I think that it makes sense
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: that if something horrible is done, like someone murdered, that
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: the people who love them or anyone who has empathy
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: for the fact that they lost their life can feel
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: this really intense emotion and this sense of injustice and
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: this feeling that someone has to pay, and that is
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: totally understandable. But someone anyone pain is actually not justice, right.
• 47:21
  Speaker 1: The person who's responsible pain and serving their time in
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: a way that makes sense for the crime committed, that's justice, right.
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: And if someone is convicted of a murder that they
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: actually were not responsible for, that is an injustice. And yeah,
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: it is sad and not only you know, Dusty mentioned
• 47:41
  Speaker 2: this in our conversation what this put his family through.
• 47:46
  Speaker 2: His family lost access to him for thirty years and
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: that was devastating for his mother and exhausting to fight
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: this battle with him for decades trying to find a
• 47:59
  Speaker 2: path to freedom. And yeah, it's like, it's not a
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: comparison of three decades behind bars to someone who is
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: a victim of a homicide. It's not a comparison at all.
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: It's just saying two things can be true at once. Yeah,
• 48:13
  Speaker 2: and no amount of punishing someone for a murder that
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: they did not commit is helpful to any of us.
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 48:22
  Speaker 2: I'm reading a book right now that we're going to
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: talk about in a future episode. But I just I
• 48:26
  Speaker 2: learned something interesting reading this book that made me think
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: of this case. And I don't know if this is
• 48:32
  Speaker 2: exactly what happened here. Maybe it's a part of what happened.
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: Of course, there's so many variables. But the majority of
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: judges were prosecutors before they were judges.
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so I've actually never really thought about that.
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so they were prosecutors before they were judges, and
• 48:49
  Speaker 2: so there's this like programming that the prosecution would then
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: resonate with them.
• 48:55
  Speaker 3: You know.
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: I can't like quantify that in some super science way,
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: but I find it hard to believe there's no correlation there. Like,
• 49:04
  Speaker 2: if someone's telling me about their work in podcasting, I'm
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: going to understand where they're coming from. And maybe if
• 49:12
  Speaker 2: you were a former prosecutor and now you're a judge
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: and you have this prosecutor coming at you like a prosecutor.
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: You're probably thinking, Yeah, that's what I would have said.
• 49:20
  Speaker 2: That's what I would have said. You would hope that
• 49:22
  Speaker 2: they would be able to be impartial, Right, that's the idea.
• 49:26
  Speaker 2: But I see what you're saying, because if they spent
• 49:28
  Speaker 2: the former part of their career fighting against public defenders
• 49:32
  Speaker 2: or defense attorneys, then it would be probably easier for
• 49:37
  Speaker 2: them to relate to or be on the side of prosecutors.
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: It's something that judges should hopefully be like actively working
• 49:45
  Speaker 2: against in themselves. And also, why don't we have more
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: public defenders that become judges. I know, it's a great question,
• 49:51
  Speaker 2: and I think we're probably going to have it answered
• 49:53
  Speaker 2: in a future episode. Okay, but exciting. Yeah, And like
• 49:57
  Speaker 2: most people are good. A lot of people are good
• 50:00
  Speaker 2: and they want to do the right thing. But we
• 50:02
  Speaker 2: can all have inherent bias very deep within us, informed
• 50:06
  Speaker 2: by our entire history, that we're not even aware of, right,
• 50:10
  Speaker 2: even when we're fighting against it. I mean, we see
• 50:12
  Speaker 2: that all the time. And yeah, anyway, so it just
• 50:16
  Speaker 2: made me think about this big philosophical thoughts and questions today. Yeah,
• 50:20
  Speaker 2: I'm just going to tag on another forty minutes here.
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, it's I think talking with someone like
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: Dusty and thinking about a case like this, it definitely
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: tends to make us think about things like that.
• 50:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I'm thirty seven and thinking about thirty
• 50:36
  Speaker 2: one years. Yeah, it's like you'd be you'd only have
• 50:40
  Speaker 2: six years, six years of life. But yeah, I mean
• 50:43
  Speaker 2: maybe that's like a silly way to think of.
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: But it's a long time. Yeah, a really long time.
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: And now he's, you know, fifties, in his fifties and
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: kind of like starting over with his life. And I
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: wish him the best me too. Thank you guys for listening.
• 50:59
  Speaker 1: We will be back in now week. If you have
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: a story for us, we would love to hear it.
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: Our email is The Knife at exactlyrightmedia dot com, or
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: you can follow us on Instagram at the Knife podcast or.
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: A Blue Sky at the Knife Podcast.
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: This has been an Exactly Right production hosted and produced
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: by me Hannah Smith and me Paysha Eaton.
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: Our producers are Tom Bryfogel and Alexis Samarosi. This episode
• 51:22
  Speaker 2: was mixed by Tom Bryfogel. Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain.
• 51:26
  Speaker 1: Our theme music is by birds in the airport
• 51:29
  Speaker 2: Artwork fivansa Lilac executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia Hardstark
• 51:34
  Speaker 2: and Danielle Kramer,