Latest / SisterSmart Leadership / 27: How to Find the Right Support at Every Level to Become a Senior Leader with VP Chumi Khurana

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27: How to Find the Right Support at Every Level to Become a Senior Leader with VP Chumi Khurana · SisterSmart Leadership

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I can think of three to four women in my career that really just did what
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I just described, which is to reach out a hand and lend a hand and maybe
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have honest discussions or, push me.
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And I do think that has inspired me to pay it forward, it's like when you see
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that role modeling, when you see, that kind of leadership, it's really inspiring.
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So I really hope to do that in my daily practice with other women.
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And I think there's a lot of really great pleasure to see other people
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grow by helping, lend a hand and really helping inspire people to maybe take
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a step that they hadn't thought about.
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I'm Jill Avey, a career success coach, and this is Sister Smart Leadership, the
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show that explores how women can rise from director to vice president and beyond
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by fully leaning into their feminine energy as their biggest advantage.
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Let's get you one step closer to the recognition and promotion you deserve.
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I'm so excited to introduce you to Chumi Khurana, who is the vice president of
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sales and marketing at J& J Oncology.
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She leads the U.
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S.
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sales and marketing teams for the company's growing portfolio of
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prostate and bladder cancer products.
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And she's responsible for steering product strategies.
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market engagement with customers, patient stakeholders, alliance management,
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and providing commercial input for business development opportunities.
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Welcome to me.
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I'm so glad to have you here to talk with us
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Jill, thank you so much for inviting me.
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It's a pleasure to be here.
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Thank you.
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You're welcome.
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As we get started, I would love to hear a little bit about your
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background and your journey to get to this level in your career.
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And I realized that, as we were talking before, that you were
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born in the UK, raised in Germany, and now you live in the U S.
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So it's quite a international background that you have.
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And I'm wondering how that background has shaped your experience.
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Particularly when we talk about belonging in your career, I feel like that's
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something that women can often have struggles with a feeling like they
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Yeah, thank you for that question.
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Yeah, I do have a very international background.
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I'm of Indian descent.
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My parents immigrated to England from India.
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And that's where I was born in England.
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And I still hold my British passport.
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But I'm a very proud U.
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S.
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citizen.
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And I think It's been a real adventure living in different cultures.
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I think it shapes a lot of who I am having different cultural experiences
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and also being a child of immigrant parents gives you a very unique vantage
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point, in terms of just work ethic really making sure that met my parents proud
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right in terms of the choice they made to leave their country and come abroad
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So I think it has shaped me a lot.
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I Did all my schooling really in Germany, so I'm completely fluent in
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German I have no accent and obviously it's a very good party trick because
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I don't necessarily look German It was a unique time to grow up there.
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Back then there were not a lot of non Germans in the place I lived in.
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I grew up in a very small town.
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It was actually the only non German in the whole town.
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So, I had a really great childhood though, in a beautiful place.
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And I grew up going to school there, did my college there,
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then I came over here to the U.
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S.
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to do my MBA.
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I didn't really know a soul when I came over here, so it was quite the adventure.
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And I think that resiliency and really learning a new culture, building a
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whole new life somewhere where I didn't have a lot of connections made me
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stronger, And then I actually met my husband very soon after moving here
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for my MBA and the rest is history.
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So, I stayed in the U.
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S.
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and finished my MBA and actually started in pharma right after that.
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And I think I've always been very interested in the sciences because my
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Dad's a physician and so I grew up with a lot of medicine at home and I think I'm
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just incredibly lucky that I get to marry my interest in science and breakthrough
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medicine with my skill sets in business.
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So that's kind of how I got started in that area.
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And again, I think probably many women or any, anybody with a full
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career like many people, I didn't set out to do what I do today.
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I think you make certain choices.
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I studied international business because I really loved the global aspects of
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things, but it wasn't, With a lot of intent that I landed in pharma and then,
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I kept staying there because I loved it.
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But I think that's one thing that I like to tell younger women, younger people
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in their career, follow your interests, be inspired, but it doesn't necessarily
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mean where you're going to end up.
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How did you end up in
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Pharmaceuticals?
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Yeah,
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then?
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it's kind of a, an interesting kind of funny story.
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I was an immigrant to the U.
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S.
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So I had after graduating from my MBA, I had a, temporary work visa.
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And it was very hard to get anybody to talk to me about jobs because, sponsoring
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someone is a really big deal, and definitely someone entry level unless you
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have a very, different skill set, was not.
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So I got turned down left and right.
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And I was pretty discouraged because, I was worried I'd have to go back
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to Germany and I really wanted to stay a little longer in the U.
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S.
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At that point, I'd already met my husband.
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So I actually went I had Family, friends, and he was a physician and through
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him, I actually met someone that was in the pharmaceutical sales arena.
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He had a friend that worked in pharmaceutical sales.
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And I just, I love telling the story because she was actually a
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relatively senior sales executive.
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And she just took a liking to me.
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And she said, Hey, listen, what do you think about, joining pharma and sales?
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And I said, well, no, I got my MBA.
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I want to go into marketing and no, I don't want to do sales.
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And then she basically told me about how wonderful of a role it was, and
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told me about just the perks of being in sales, and so, actually invited me
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to do a ride along with a sales rep.
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And I was like, this is really great.
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And so that's how I started in pharma.
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So really, it was about another more senior woman seeing something in me,
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reaching across and convincing me, but also giving me the opportunity to go
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look, she could have very much been like, well, well, she's not interested, so I'm
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not going to, but she really, invested in me and I'll forever be grateful for her.
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And Because I had the connection my company at that point, Bristol
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Morris Squibb, basically said, hey, listen, we'll work with you.
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It then so happened though that I also got married to my husband.
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So in the end I got my green card through marriage and we still
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joke it's 26 years later that I married him for his green card.
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That's an amazing story and so inspiring about how you got your start from another
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yes,
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You out like that and to, really, I love your point about Not just taking no
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for an answer for her of helping you to explore a little bit so that You could
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make a more educated, decision there and look what that opened up for you
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Yeah, and I think Jill it's so interesting.
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I've had very many men in my life from a career perspective that have
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given me great opportunities too.
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I can think of three to four women in my career that really just did what
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I just described, which is to reach out a hand and lend a hand and maybe
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have honest discussions or, push me.
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And I do think that has inspired me to pay it forward, it's like when you see
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that role modeling, when you see, that kind of leadership, it's really inspiring.
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So I really hope to do that in my daily practice with other women.
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And I think there's a lot of really great pleasure to see other people
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grow by helping, lend a hand and really helping inspire people to maybe take
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a step that they hadn't thought about.
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Yeah, that's incredible.
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I love that.
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All of the women have inspired you to keep that circle going.
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I think it's something that we can all focus on and really helping each other
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because, the old days were that we were all fighting against each other and,
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kind of this, sometimes women have a bad reputation for not supporting each other.
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And that's really something that I know I like to promote that
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we can really help each other
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Yeah.
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And I think a lot of that stems from, and I think we've made a lot of progress.
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You asked about belonging and I want to make sure that I address that,
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there is and actually at J and J are, diversity inclusion model is you belong.
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And I just love that.
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And as someone who didn't really have like when I was in
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Germany that I wasn't German,
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I came from India.
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I was born in England.
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It's what I loved about the U.
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S.
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A lot is why I came here because I felt like there's a lot of people like me
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that have a multitude of background.
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I think, easier to belong, but if you think about that in the corporate setting,
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I think it's something that we need to be very focused on is how do you make sure
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that people feel like they can belong?
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I feel like when I first started out, a lot of the women I saw
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in higher level positions were kind of really hard to relate to.
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They were kind of tough and maybe felt like they had to be that way, to
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compete with their male colleagues,
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I think we've come a long way where we have started to really
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embrace different styles.
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We talk about diversity and inclusion and it's not just
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race or gender, it's styles too.
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Like how do you embrace different styles and how do you build teams With those
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different styles because it only makes you stronger if you have different approaches,
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not everybody's going to be an extrovert, How do you make sure everybody has a
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voice and make sure people feel like they belong, I think those are some of the
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things that we need to be focused on When we're in our career kind of settings and
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talking about diversity and inclusion.
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It's also about styles
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Yeah it's so important.
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We're thinking about belonging and that inclusive piece also, I feel
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like authenticity comes along with that a lot where people want to
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feel like they're authentic selves.
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And as leaders, what you're talking about, how, I feel like when I was
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coming up through the leadership ranks, that's what women were doing
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was trying to be like a man and trying to just fit into their world.
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And it worked really well.
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In some ways and didn't work in other ways.
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And I feel like we have a whole new paradigm today.
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That's so much more powerful where we can use, our masculine and feminine
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strengths of, each of us have both, but we can really lean into what's right
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for us rather than trying to fit some certain mold and I'm wondering if you
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have any reflection on how you were able to find your own authenticity.
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that was quite the journey for me.
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It wasn't the easiest part of my career journey, but also work
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life journey, I work to live.
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I don't live to work, but I love what I do.
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And so I think a lot of times it's You know, growing up in the culture that
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I did, which is Indian and German when I first started out I would say for
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quite a while, I want to say, let's see, for probably the first eight years
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or more on my career, I kept work and life completely separate because I
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was a certain person at work and then a different person outside of work.
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And I was Very like nose to grindstone, very revered the hierarchy
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of where I was and wouldn't bring my personality really to work.
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I was very engaged in what I wanted to do and, very focused on that.
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And I'll never forget when someone that was a more senior leader
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said, we want to hear your voice.
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We want to know who you are because when you give us glimpses of that, It's a good
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thing and you want that, and again, that person probably doesn't even realize the
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impact they made on me by saying that, and when I started to lead people, I
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realized that I was much more effective as a leader if I actually brought myself
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to work, and my personality to work.
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And that you can appropriately do that.
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There isn't just a work persona and an outside of work persona.
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And I think that's what you're talking about in terms of authenticity.
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So that was a journey for me.
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But I think it was a journey because of culturally, maybe how I was raised off,
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keep your nose to the grindstone, get it, you do a good job, everything will happen,
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but that's not necessarily how it goes.
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You need to create followership, and you create followership by being
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authentic and showing vulnerability, showing who you are, being clear
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about what is good, what's not good.
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And then being open to having a discussion and debate, I think It's sometimes
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not easy to be authentic but I really recommend it strongly as long as we know,
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like, how to kind of modulate depending on the situation or where we're at.
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And I think it's so interesting, Jill and, I, I know that you've talked about
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this as part of your work, but there's also big generational differences of,
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the people that you're leading and maybe what they're motivated by, and so how do
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you encourage them to be authentic and kind of meet them where you can motivate
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them, So I think that's another thing that we need to be incredibly aware of.
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In today's world, or maybe when I started, you just had to kind of, flex
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to whoever was in senior management.
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Now, I think it's very much, let's flex to all levels and make sure that we
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bridge, different styles, like I said, but different generational ways of working
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to ensure that people can be authentic.
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Yeah, and then you're flexing upwards as well, working with boards and
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things like that and senior management.
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Yeah, wonderful.
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So you also have two children, and so speaking of authenticity and women,
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we bring, often We have families and a lot more responsibilities.
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And I would love to hear a little bit about some of the decisions.
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We had, we talked earlier and I know that you at one point took you worked
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part-time when you were raising your
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yeah.
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And it's something that I've when I tell my story or I meet with people, I just
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really want to make sure that I share that, because I think sometimes as
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women, we are like, we got to do it all.
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And, got to do it all really well.
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And we all know how hard that is.
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I think.
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We can be very hard on ourselves and this wasn't an easy decision for me.
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I've always loved my job.
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I've always wanted to have increased responsibility and grow and learn.
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And Obviously you kind of get started and when you're in a very corporate career
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environment It can be like a rat race,
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you're like kind of on this wheel and you're like next what's next?
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What's next?
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Keep going.
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Keep going next level next thing, etc But When I had my son, who is now almost going
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to be 21 I actually made the decision, which was very unusual back then.
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And I'll be forever thankful of my management at Bristol Maria Squibb.
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I was the first marketer in in marketing to request to go part time.
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And it so happened that I had a couple of colleagues that were right around with me.
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And so there was a little bit of a groundswell of women at that age that
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were, ready to have children that were thinking about their options.
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So, yeah, I went part time, which was unusual.
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And Worked well for me.
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I won't say that it was easy because in true type a fashion I wanted to be
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a hundred percent at home and a hundred percent at work and that is not how
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it goes you really learn how to Flex and you can't be both you can't be a
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hundred percent stay at home mom when you're part time and you can't be a
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hundred percent So, I went through a number of different arrangements
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from working three days, being two days off, working three days, one day
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remote, which back then was like new.
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You and, all these things, but essentially I was in a part time
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arrangement to having my son and my daughter who will be 18 this year.
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So for about five years, and I like telling that story because I think
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people are a little surprised when they ask me, I get the question of
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like, how did you get to your level?
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What did you do?
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And I love telling the story because.
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I took a little bit of a sidestep, but I'm also proud to say that I got
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promoted within this arrangement.
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So, I think that is possible right now.
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Was I always the best about not working while I was part time?
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Not really.
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I think I could have probably done a better job at that.
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But again, What I guess I want to share is I don't think it hurt my long term
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career goals, it might have set me on a different path for a little bit.
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but it was a great choice that I made and I want to empower other women
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or share this because I want them to know that there are times when you can
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Give more personally with your kids or your family or give more at work,
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of course it depends on your partner.
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I have to say my husband and I are completely 50 50 and that
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makes it easier for me to do this.
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Not everybody has that dynamic.
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But I really think it takes a village.
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I also had my parents close by, so I had a lot of help from family too.
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Yeah.
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And that's fantastic to be able to get that kind of support from other places.
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I often see women trying to do it all themselves and not having.
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the support around them or not even sometimes they have the support and
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they're not accepting it too, and so that can I've really see that most
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of the women who succeed and rise up really do have a lot of support at home.
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They're not trying to do it all.
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Well, that's another
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Is that something you noticed as
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Yeah that's something that I love really emphasizing and talking about.
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And I think I shared this with you when you and I met, which
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is this concept of outsourcing.
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Again, I think for many of us women, it's like, what do you mean?
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I can't do it all.
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Why, why would I outsource?
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But I think you're working hard You know, many of us are making a good living, and
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I think it's very important that You focus on the things that truly matter to you,
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and again, I learned this lesson from another woman that I work with who talked
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to me and she would joke about this.
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I outsource everything that I don't want to do and I do the things that
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I do want to do, so I took that to heart and, listen, when you're
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starting out, you might not have the financial means to do that.
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But as I continue to grow having someone that helps you clean the house,
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Doing Instacart and having your groceries delivered.
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Okay, so that tomato is not perfectly ripe.
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Does that really matter?
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Do you have a laundry service that you can send things out to?
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Is there someone that can be a mother's helper that can help run errands.
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In my case, what I wanted to make space for is the fact that when I got home,
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I wanted to give my kids a shower.
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I wanted to be with them.
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I didn't want to be focused on at that point cleaning or sorting or doing other
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stuff that I didn't really need to do.
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I really wanted to make sure that I was focused on them.
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I love to cook.
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So that, that I would keep.
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For me to do I still wanted to work out.
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So, yes, I still do wake up early in the morning to do that.
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So I think just making sure that you're clear on what do you want
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to prioritize and what do you maybe not want to prioritize?
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And then also it being okay if it's not completely perfect,
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which that's a hard thing.
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It still is a very hard thing for me.
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It is, there's so much social pressure for us to get everything right
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and to, have it all and do it all.
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And it's just not possible.
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So this is something we talk about a lot in our program is how to create
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balance, what we want to optimize on and what we want to let go of.
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And this exact, conversation of outsourcing and figuring out what makes
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quality over quantity and what does.
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Bring fulfillment to your life and focus on those things and let go of the rest,
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yeah.
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And I think young women, young mothers, whether you have.
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Kids or not, but let me focus on young mothers for a second.
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In the beginning, you think this is just a period of time when they're little.
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Guess what?
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It, it continues all the way through.
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It doesn't get easier.
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It's just different.
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The earlier we realize that it's a marathon of, hey, we want to be well
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rounded, happy mothers, individuals that have a career, but also, are there
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for our children and our family, not just our children, it's our family.
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The earlier we realize it's a marathon, the better, because then we can set
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ourselves up for success, what are the tools you need to make it through that
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marathon and be successful at the end, I think a lot of people think it's only
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tough when they're little, that's not true, it's not, tough, but it continues,
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yeah.
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It changes, like you said.
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Yeah.
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And now you have, your kids are starting to get to that age where they're
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launching off into their own lives.
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How has that changed
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Yeah.
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I get a little emotional thinking about that, and it's so interesting,
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Joel, because when my son left for college, I didn't give it much
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thought, in the sense that I've always been a working mom, and I didn't
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think it would hit me a certain way.
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I was just like, Ready for it.
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I was proud of him.
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I felt really good that I'd raised kid that I could put out in the world that
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I know would be, a functioning young adult, but I had a crazy experience I
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dropped him off and we drove away and I kind of had this like breakdown, and
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I just did not think that would happen.
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And I, I realized that what I was mourning was the loss of the end of the four of us
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together, so, I think it is interesting just because we're working women.
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It doesn't mean that we're not.
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I think that it's easier and I think what I'm learning now is as I get
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ready to be an empty nester next is, I'm trying to be a little bit
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more thoughtful and prepare for it.
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you mentioned earlier, Jill, about, the things that we give up or, one
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thing that I've realized is my, 25 years or so have been about my family.
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I'm very close to, all of my family my, my parents, my sister, my husband's
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family, and then my kids and then work.
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And so what I'm realizing is as I'm coming out on the other side with
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time, even though I Crazy busy career.
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I still have like time because the kids don't need me as
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much anymore is friendships.
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So that's one thing that I've really been working on is making sure that
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I'm investing time in my friendships.
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And either rebuilding those or finding additional friendships and also thinking
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about other things that I want to do outside of work, which is such a novel.
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Do you want to take on, in my case, I do community work I'm on a board, but
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also is there anything that you want to do in addition to, I love to do a lot of
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things from an athletic perspective, but is there other stuff, like from an arts
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perspective, I took a mosaic class and, just exploring to see, what am I going
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to do with that additional kind of time.
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that's kind of where I'm at now, which is an interesting place to be.
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But I have some friendships where I keep telling the women,
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please be patient with me.
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You know, I, I really, I know that, they have kids that have already
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left school and, left for college.
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So, I'm really trying to put more energy behind that to build friendships.
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that's fantastic.
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Yeah, the connection and creativity are two things I'm hearing there.
23:14
I'm always encouraging people to, focus on friendships as well, because it seems
23:19
like the thing that, that's the last to come back, the husband and then the
23:22
friendships, but I'm really curious about your mosaic class and bringing creativity.
23:27
And I'm wondering, has that affected your leadership?
23:30
Oh, well, not quite yet, Jill.
23:32
I feel like I might need to be more more accomplished around that.
23:36
I'm a very type A person.
23:37
My brain is going like 24 seven.
23:40
It has been jokes that I have an on and off switch.
23:43
There's nothing in between.
23:44
I'm very regimented in my schedule, which is another thing that, helps me.
23:48
With a very demanding job.
23:50
I'm probably like moving towards bed around nine o'clock and most of
23:55
the time I sleep by 10, but then I wake up at five the next morning.
23:58
I think the one thing that I noticed when I do arts and crafts is my mind gets
24:04
still, which that to me is like, Whoa.
24:07
So,because I'm always thinking.
24:10
So I've.
24:11
Notice that when I do things with my hands, and that's why I like to cook
24:15
too that anything when I create, my mind goes still and it's still.
24:19
So I'm doing it more from that perspective, from a mindfulness
24:22
perspective, to create that stillness in my mind because it's a recharge moment.
24:28
So I don't know that it's affected my leadership style, but it
24:31
certainly helps with a very demanding job, to have that, mindfulness
24:35
and that stillness for your mind.
24:37
I think we all need that.
24:38
Every now and then when we have demanding jobs.
24:40
So I would say that's the biggest difference.
24:42
I don't know that I've become a more creative leader, but yeah.
24:47
But I think that recharging piece is really important for leaders.
24:51
And I love that you brought that up because it's something we
24:54
don't always let ourselves do and finding the space and time.
24:58
I'm glad you are being able
25:00
to
25:00
yeah, yeah.
25:01
Yeah.
25:01
I have to still listen.
25:02
This is I'm bringing up like one thing that I did.
25:05
There's more that I need to do.
25:06
And again, I think what I'm trying to say is it would be so easy going into this
25:11
empty nesting phase to just completely immerse myself in work, which I'm
25:17
sure I will because I love what I do,
25:19
I'm lucky that I love what I do, but I think, talking about authenticity,
25:24
belonging like the aperture of what's out there, I think it's not good to be
25:29
completely immersed in work all the time.
25:31
I think you do need some balance because I think it then makes you a
25:36
stronger leader at work because you have a broader aperture if you do that,
25:40
As a leader of hundreds of people, how do you put an upper end on
25:45
an upper limit on what you do?
25:47
It's not easy, but it's all about prioritization.
25:50
I think it's easier when you love what you do, so maybe my limits are
25:55
a little bit more stretched than they should be, especially as it relates
26:00
to people and people development.
26:01
But at the end of the day, that upper limit exists because of my
26:06
family and my life outside of work,
26:08
and that, that's where I set those boundaries.
26:10
Like I love driving.
26:12
I drive my daughter who is 17, does not need to be driven.
26:17
I drive her to school.
26:18
As many days as I can in the morning because she's a Extreme night person.
26:23
I'm a morning person.
26:25
So it's the one time where we're both in the car for whatever
26:29
it is, like 20 minutes when I drive her and we're both there.
26:33
And there's something about looking at the windshield too, where it's easy
26:37
to have, all kinds of conversations.
26:39
Right.
26:40
so that's my, morning boundary.
26:42
you know, I ask my assistant to block my calendar so I can drive
26:45
my daughter as many days as I can.
26:47
And the same with the evenings, I love to cook.
26:50
I cook, nothing crazy, but I come home and make dinner.
26:54
It doesn't mean that I won't be on a call.
26:56
Many people that know me, they know I'll be on a call, having a conversation,
27:00
cooking, but then when it's dinner time, you It's phones down, it's phones away.
27:04
And then my team also knows though, that I go to bed at nine 30, but then
27:09
between five and like six, there's a lot of activity coming from me.
27:14
So I warn people I'm clear about these things.
27:17
So I think limits is a tough thing because I don't know.
27:20
That's a hard one, but I think having In my case, I have a very strong
27:26
habits and schedule that help me cope with my demanding schedule.
27:31
There's no limit to what we can do at work, generally.
27:34
And so, it's, we have to decide where we want to stop in
27:38
I have a lot of travel too, so, and there it's you go when you're traveling,
27:43
you're going from very early in the morning to late at night because you
27:46
have dinners with customers or teams.
27:50
again, I think, you do that.
27:52
And then I think making sure that then there is a time to recharge
27:56
to do it again is also important.
27:58
Fantastic.
27:59
Oh, it's been so wonderful talking with you today.
28:02
I really appreciate your time.
28:04
And just thank you again for being so generous to share your
28:08
journey with our listeners.
28:10
And I know that it's going to be very inspiring for people to hear about your
28:14
ability to be able to hold all these things that sometimes feel unholdable.
28:18
So for our listeners, if you have found this episode helpful, please let us know
28:22
in the comments, which part you liked the most if you're watching this on YouTube.
28:26
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28:31
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28:40
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28:42
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29:18
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