Latest / Rugby Direct / Rugby Direct Episode 267: Rennie names side for Scotland showdown

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Rugby Direct Episode 267: Rennie names side for Scotland showdown · Rugby Direct

0:09
Speaker 1: You're listening to a podcast from Newstalk ZB. Follow this
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0:23
Speaker 2: Get inside the.
0:24
Speaker 1: Game from every angle. It's Rugby Direct with Elliot Smith
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Speaker 1: and Liam Napier, powered by Newstalk ZB.
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Speaker 2: Welcome into Rugby Direct, powered by Access Solutions, elevating you
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Speaker 2: and your business to a higher level. Elliot Smith with me,
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Speaker 2: Liam Napier, and we are in Edinburgh, counting down to
0:43
Speaker 2: the first All Blacks test in the Nations Championship. Liam, obviously,
0:51
Speaker 2: it's been a big week for the All Blacks and
0:53
Speaker 2: a sad week for the All Blacks with the passing
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Speaker 2: of their head of security, Logan Cadwallad up earlier in
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Speaker 2: the week. Obviously, some genuinely shocking news for the All
1:04
Speaker 2: Blacks and that sort of, I guess, cast a pall
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Speaker 2: over the state of things this week and a lot
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Speaker 2: of the discussion leading into this Test match, hasn't it?
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Speaker 3: Absolutely, yeah. I guess first and foremost our thoughts and
1:21
Speaker 3: empathy goes out to Logan's family, his wife and kids.
1:26
Speaker 3: Tragic news, he's been with the team for a decade,
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Speaker 3: so very close to a number of management players past
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Speaker 3: and present. We heard from Dave Rennie today, about the
1:41
Speaker 3: emotional toll that that's taken on the team. They'll wear
1:43
Speaker 3: black armbands for him this weekend. They've had Logan's brother
1:49
Speaker 3: join them in camp and his best friend. And they've,
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Speaker 3: I guess, had some reflections and shared stories. And while
1:56
Speaker 3: that helps, you're right, it will be a cloud that
2:00
Speaker 3: hangs over the team and it could potentially have an
2:03
Speaker 3: effect one way or the other on a performance this weekend.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. Look, you've seen a lot of the social
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Speaker 2: media posts commentary and that the excellent All Blacks social
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Speaker 2: media team have put out around that but yeah as
2:15
Speaker 2: you say thoughts with his family and loved ones as
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Speaker 2: a result of that one of the guys you sort
2:21
Speaker 2: of just see around we've been around the All Blacks
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Speaker 2: for a number of years now and a familiar face
2:24
Speaker 2: around that and I think what the All Blacks do
2:26
Speaker 2: really well and I can't speak for other teams in
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Speaker 2: that regard is that even if you're not a playing
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Speaker 2: member you're part of this team you're a vital part
2:35
Speaker 2: and given the All Blacks spend so long time such
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Speaker 2: a long time on the road, they certainly do, you know,
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Speaker 2: buy into that ethos around everyone being an important part
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Speaker 2: of the team. Let's dial into the All Blacks team
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Speaker 2: named by Dave Rennie for this game. And I guess
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Speaker 2: probably could be termed no surprises. You look at that,
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Speaker 2: Ethan DeGroot comes back in. He didn't play in Sydney.
2:59
Speaker 2: Geordie Barrett comes in, didn't play in Sydney. Technically a
3:02
Speaker 2: change with Quinn Tapia. You know, he only played 60 seconds. um,
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Speaker 2: in Sydney, but not actually a change. Uh, and then
3:10
Speaker 2: a couple more on the bench with a suffer on
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Speaker 2: more Anton Cigna, Christian Lego, Willie. Um, if you had
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Speaker 2: to write down the 23 yesterday that you thought it
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Speaker 2: would probably be, that's pretty much what I think most people, uh,
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Speaker 2: would have landed on. Um, what do you make of
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Speaker 2: the team that Dave Rennie is named?
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Speaker 3: Yeah, highly predictable, but, uh, I think it's a mark
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Speaker 3: of respect for, uh, the Scotland team and, um, a
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Speaker 3: signal that the expectations around how difficult the All Blacks
3:41
Speaker 3: expect this weekend to be. But you're right, most rugby pundits, fans,
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Speaker 3: would have been able to predict that team. Perhaps otherwise,
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Speaker 3: with the one minor surprise maybe, would be Tava Tavanawa
3:56
Speaker 3: over Anton Leonard-Brown. Dave Rennie has consistently favoured Anton Leonard-Brown.
4:02
Speaker 3: particularly in a bench role when he's been fit this year,
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Speaker 3: but he's come back from injury. Tava Tavanawa was promoted
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Speaker 3: to start at 12 when Geordie Barrett pulled out late
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Speaker 3: in Sydney and has effectively been rewarded with a retention
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Speaker 3: on the bench. And I like it. Look, I think
4:17
Speaker 3: Tava Tavanawa brings vastly more impact. We've discussed this previously.
4:26
Speaker 3: I don't necessarily view him in a starting capacity. I
4:32
Speaker 3: think he's got a bit of work to do on
4:33
Speaker 3: his conditioning, but I like him as a bench prospect.
4:36
Speaker 3: You mentioned bringing him on alongside, as you mentioned, Asafa
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Speaker 3: Amu there and Rika Awani and others. They're genuine impact players,
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Speaker 3: so I like his inclusion.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not just covering a position for the sake
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Speaker 2: of it, which I've been against for some time now.
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Speaker 2: I didn't think he played that well in Sydney at
4:56
Speaker 2: a couple of moments, but... He also had to play
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Speaker 2: 79 minutes and clearly the All Blacks are intent of,
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Speaker 2: if they're going to play him, it's going to ideally
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Speaker 2: be in a condensed 20 to 30 minute window or
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Speaker 2: going to play him at the back end of a game.
5:12
Speaker 2: So if, you know, and we haven't seen him do
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Speaker 2: that because he came in with that extra time he
5:18
Speaker 2: had to play. This is a bit of an acid test,
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Speaker 2: I think, for him. If he can make a real
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Speaker 2: impact in that closing 30 minutes, it sets the wheels
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Speaker 2: in motion for him to be a regular on the
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Speaker 2: All Blacks bench. And they've wanted to find out a
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Speaker 2: little bit more about him, and this is a pretty
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Speaker 2: big opportunity to do so. And you think back to
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Speaker 2: the test last year when the All Blacks were 17-0
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Speaker 2: up at halftime, and then very nearly, and probably should
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Speaker 2: have capitulated, bar a Damian McKenzie loss. piece of magic
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Speaker 2: or two from the bench, you know, it does highlight
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Speaker 2: how important the bench could be on Saturday afternoon.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, it does because that was one
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Speaker 3: of the most influential bench impact performances of the modern
6:04
Speaker 3: era from Neil Blackstone and McKenzie with that 50-22 and
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Speaker 3: the miracle pearl wetting try in the corner with his
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Speaker 3: head bandaged and bloodied. You know, it really was sort
6:15
Speaker 3: of Hollywood script.
6:17
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
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Speaker 3: Type stuff to preserve the All Blacks' unbeaten record against Scotland,
6:22
Speaker 3: which hovers over this weekend's match. So, yeah, we've seen
6:27
Speaker 3: the box, you know, sort of pave the way in
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Speaker 3: terms of the influence from the bench, and the All
6:32
Speaker 3: Blacks are starting to grasp that. You think about George Bauer,
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Speaker 3: who's been very influential, bringing him off the bench as well.
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Speaker 3: Big acid test, I think, for Pasale Otosi. He's got
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Speaker 3: some improvements to put forward after having some scrum issues
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Speaker 3: in South Africa. Scotland not at the same level there.
6:53
Speaker 3: And I think also we can glean from this team
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Speaker 3: that Scott Barrett and Fabian Holland are now the definitive
7:01
Speaker 3: first-choice locks. And at present, with Artie Sevier and Luke
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Speaker 3: Jacobson and Shannon Frizzell out of the picture, that's Tupu Vai...
7:13
Speaker 3: Peter Lakai and Wallace Atiti are your starting loose trio.
7:17
Speaker 3: The All Blacks will rotate again next week. But the
7:20
Speaker 3: picture in terms of first choice players is starting to
7:23
Speaker 3: become quite clear. And Josh Morby on the left wing
7:27
Speaker 3: gets rewarded for what I thought was a strong performance,
7:30
Speaker 3: particularly aerially against the Wallabies.
7:32
Speaker 2: Yeah, he was good in that test match, I thought,
7:34
Speaker 2: and toyed with the Wallabies defenders on a couple of occasions,
7:38
Speaker 2: notably the one where he You know, basically dangled the
7:41
Speaker 2: ball in front of them like it was a kid
7:43
Speaker 2: and a two-year-old and some jangling some keys. So that's
7:48
Speaker 2: interesting in terms of Dan really settling on a lot
7:51
Speaker 2: of combinations. And I suppose part of that has been
7:55
Speaker 2: due to the injury toll they've had that probably tinkering...
7:59
Speaker 2: for the sake of it, is probably not where he
8:01
Speaker 2: wants to go to, at least in the games like Scotland.
8:06
Speaker 3: Not for this match.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, and so, you know, I think he's very much
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Speaker 2: set on, OK, these are the combinations that we want
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Speaker 2: to go with here. And I think that's a good thing.
8:16
Speaker 2: You know, Peter Larkin was superb again in Sydney, and
8:20
Speaker 2: no question about the fact that he now, I think,
8:23
Speaker 2: deserves a place in that All Blacks loose forward trigger
8:25
Speaker 2: when everyone is fit and healthy. It's a matter of
8:27
Speaker 2: where he does end up. I guess Anton Cigna comes
8:33
Speaker 2: in on the bench as well with Christian Leo Willey,
8:36
Speaker 2: the All Blacks, obviously with Tupo Vai, again, deciding not
8:39
Speaker 2: to include a lock on the bench. We've seen glimpses
8:43
Speaker 2: of Anton Cigna. He came on, obviously, at Eden Park
8:46
Speaker 2: after missing the bulk of the South African tour. Big
8:49
Speaker 2: opportunity for him. And Christian Leo Willey as well. You know,
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Speaker 2: haven't seen him in the All Blacks This year was
8:56
Speaker 2: asked by Dave Renn to go away and work on
8:58
Speaker 2: a few things during the NPC. He missed out on
9:01
Speaker 2: that South African tour. I thought he had a really
9:03
Speaker 2: good NPC for Otago. And it was interesting to hear
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Speaker 2: him say today that the style of the All Blacks
9:08
Speaker 2: game plan is similar to what they were doing in Otago.
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Speaker 2: So he's a player that hasn't often played a bench role,
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Speaker 2: but I think could have a bit of an impact
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Speaker 2: too on this tour.
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Speaker 3: I think his style, his work rate was very evident
9:23
Speaker 3: for the Crusaders. He was one of the Crusaders' best
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Speaker 3: this year prior to going away with Otago. His work
9:30
Speaker 3: rate on both sides of the ball, he's not necessarily
9:32
Speaker 3: the biggest loose forward going around, but from, you know,
9:37
Speaker 3: what's it called? The back on your feet scenario.
9:40
Speaker 2: Bigger, yeah. Back in game, go again.
9:42
Speaker 3: That's what Rennie demands. He fits that prototype. And Cegna, Yeah,
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Speaker 3: I'm really excited to see what he can bring on
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Speaker 3: this tour. You know, he missed the Springbok test, had
9:58
Speaker 3: a couple of setbacks again. So he's a different type
10:03
Speaker 3: of player in that um, he brings a real, uh,
10:06
Speaker 3: breakdown presence and Lakai does a bit of that. Sevilla
10:10
Speaker 3: does a bit of that, but Cegna could well be
10:13
Speaker 3: the All Blacks best, um, turnover exponent. So, um, very
10:17
Speaker 3: intrigued to see what he brings. And then also, uh,
10:20
Speaker 3: the Damian McKenzie, Bowden Barrett playmaking axis. Now, uh, that
10:26
Speaker 3: was very pivotal in sparking the All Blacks against the Wallabies. And,
10:31
Speaker 3: you know, digging quite deep here, it's effectively the All Blacks'
10:34
Speaker 3: third choice first five with Ruben Love and Richie Mwanga
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Speaker 3: out of the picture. Well, certainly this week, Mwanga will
10:43
Speaker 3: probably come back against Wales. But these are two guys
10:47
Speaker 3: that I thought interchanged really well in terms of sharing
10:52
Speaker 3: that first receiver playmaking responsibility And it just looked seamless.
10:58
Speaker 3: Two guys that know each other really well. Two guys
11:00
Speaker 3: that were playing with no ego. If one was out
11:04
Speaker 3: of action, the other slotted in. But it's a lot
11:08
Speaker 3: easier to do that when you have a supremely dominant
11:10
Speaker 3: front foot platform. So I'm intrigued to see how that
11:15
Speaker 3: plays out and then how Rennie manages that over the
11:18
Speaker 3: next few weeks with Mawanga coming back and how that
11:20
Speaker 3: sort of picture evolves.
11:23
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, that'll be interesting, I suppose a lot is
11:25
Speaker 2: contingent on how McKenzie goes this weekend, you know, we
11:29
Speaker 2: saw him win those two tests or, you know, play
11:31
Speaker 2: a role in those two tests against Australia, the jury
11:35
Speaker 2: obviously out still because, dare I say it, you know,
11:38
Speaker 2: the All Blacks have that record against Australia that makes
11:41
Speaker 2: it now really hard to judge how players actually have
11:45
Speaker 2: performed against this Australian, you know, against Australian teams, so
11:49
Speaker 2: Scotland will be a big test this week and then
11:51
Speaker 2: potentially Rennie has a big decision to make for England and, um,
11:55
Speaker 2: whatever their final game of the, uh, the tour ends
11:57
Speaker 2: up being, uh, on that nation's championship, uh, weekend. No Fihi, Finnegan,
12:02
Speaker 2: awful this week. Um, you know, again, this has been a,
12:05
Speaker 2: I was gonna say a stop start. You hasn't really started.
12:08
Speaker 2: And in terms of the all blacks from, he's had
12:10
Speaker 2: a couple of brief opportunities, but not really. Um, which suggests, obviously,
12:15
Speaker 2: that Josh Morby's their number one pick in that left-wing jumper,
12:18
Speaker 2: and I suspect we'll see him next week, all things
12:21
Speaker 2: being equal, but no sign of him this week, and
12:24
Speaker 2: less defying Anuku was probably always going to be given
12:26
Speaker 2: this week to get back up to speed with the
12:29
Speaker 2: all-black systems and everything like that, and again, I suspect
12:34
Speaker 2: he'll be in Cardiff and playing next week.
12:36
Speaker 3: Yeah, you can certainly project ahead to next weekend with,
12:40
Speaker 3: you'd think, Fahey would start on the left wing. He
12:42
Speaker 3: needs a crack. been multiple injury setbacks for him. And Leicester,
12:49
Speaker 3: I think, Rini talked about with Christian Leawere as well,
12:54
Speaker 3: just coming to grips with everything. There's quite a lot
12:57
Speaker 3: to be thrown in. And Leicester having to get across
12:59
Speaker 3: potentially three positions as well, giving him an extra week
13:02
Speaker 3: to do that. The other one is Cortes Ratema preferred
13:06
Speaker 3: over Kyle Preston. I would probably go the other way.
13:10
Speaker 3: I suspect the All Blacks probably feel that Ratema is
13:14
Speaker 3: a better option should Rory Gard fall over in the first,
13:19
Speaker 3: I don't know, 10, 20 minutes. But I like Preston.
13:25
Speaker 3: I would have gone that way.
13:26
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would have probably gone Preston as well. We
13:27
Speaker 2: haven't seen a lot of Ratema this year, but with
13:32
Speaker 2: the injury that had ruled him out of South Africa
13:35
Speaker 2: as well, I didn't think he had a great year
13:36
Speaker 2: in Super and prior to that with the All Blacks.
13:39
Speaker 2: and I think Preston had probably edged ahead. I think
13:42
Speaker 2: his kicking game could have been quite valuable this week
13:46
Speaker 2: as well, the ability to kick off both feet late
13:48
Speaker 2: in games. So, yeah, I would have probably made that
13:52
Speaker 2: change on the bench. Look, we were here a year
13:54
Speaker 2: ago when, as we touched on earlier, Damian McKenzie pirouetted
13:58
Speaker 2: his way through in the impact role, and the All
14:00
Speaker 2: Blacks were 17-0 up and playing, probably, I'm trying to
14:04
Speaker 2: think if this is off the top of my head,
14:05
Speaker 2: but certainly one of the best 40 minutes they played
14:06
Speaker 2: under Scott Robertson. and then completely disintegrated after halftime. Those
14:11
Speaker 2: that were there will know how dangerous the Scottish side
14:16
Speaker 2: can be. There are 15 returnees in the Scottish 23
14:20
Speaker 2: from last year that are back again this weekend, and
14:22
Speaker 2: then they've added in Hugh Jones into the mix. The
14:26
Speaker 2: very impressive Kyle Rowett fullback is in there as well.
14:29
Speaker 2: A couple of tweaks up front. Piers Gorman is back
14:31
Speaker 2: in there who didn't play last year. this remains a very,
14:34
Speaker 2: very good Scottish side, um, that are so hungry for
14:37
Speaker 2: that first win ever over the All Blacks.
14:40
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a familiar theme, isn't it? What is it?
14:43
Speaker 3: 125 years, 33 games. Um, we've seen the Pumas do it.
14:49
Speaker 3: We've seen Ireland do it. Um, Scotland, one of the last, um,
14:53
Speaker 3: teams yet to knock over the All Blacks and, uh,
14:57
Speaker 3: I've got vivid recollections and just the tension at Murrayfield.
15:02
Speaker 3: You could almost hear the crowd saying, this is our moment.
15:07
Speaker 3: It's going to happen. And there's been moments like that.
15:11
Speaker 3: You think about the Bowdoin-Barrett tackle on Stuart Hogg when
15:14
Speaker 3: he cut through to save the All Blacks there. It
15:17
Speaker 3: was Damian McKenzie this time last year. The Scottish team
15:20
Speaker 3: has been really building. They've knocked over England consistently. Murrayfield
15:25
Speaker 3: is an iconic ground player. It's a really hard place
15:28
Speaker 3: to win. They've got some classy players when you look
15:31
Speaker 3: at Finn Russell, basically the British and Irish Lions midfield
15:35
Speaker 3: of Tui Palautu and Hugh Jones. Probably some question marks
15:41
Speaker 3: around their forward pack about can they challenge the All
15:45
Speaker 3: Blacks in the same way that the Box did around
15:47
Speaker 3: the scrum. The All Blacks' line-out has been a bit shaky.
15:50
Speaker 3: And I also probably question... Of all the Six Nations teams,
15:55
Speaker 3: Scotland are probably the most similar to the All Blacks
15:59
Speaker 3: in terms of style. Now, if you look at what
16:01
Speaker 3: happened with the Wallabies and their intent to use the ball,
16:05
Speaker 3: to play at pace, to keep the ball in play,
16:08
Speaker 3: that probably plays into the All Blacks' hands. And so
16:11
Speaker 3: I feel like opposition that try and suffocate the All Blacks,
16:16
Speaker 3: slow the pace, have more success. But Scotland will certainly
16:20
Speaker 3: test the All Blacks' defence. They can score points effectively.
16:24
Speaker 3: That game last year, it was the three yellow cards.
16:27
Speaker 3: Momentum's a big thing in Test rugby at the moment.
16:29
Speaker 3: So look, it is a possibility, but I also feel
16:33
Speaker 3: like this All Black team is in a much better
16:35
Speaker 3: place now than it was this time last year under
16:38
Speaker 3: Scott Robertson.
16:39
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'd agree with that. And that's probably the reason
16:41
Speaker 2: why I'd go, I'd suggest the All Blacks will probably
16:44
Speaker 2: win this weekend, but underestimate Scotland's annual peril. They, as
16:49
Speaker 2: you said, have got points in them. Um, you think
16:51
Speaker 2: back to July, they beat Argentina in a wild 47-38 game.
16:56
Speaker 2: Pushed the spring box. Pushed the spring box, 42-28. Um,
16:59
Speaker 2: they beat Fiji as well. But you think back to
17:01
Speaker 2: the Six Nations, they beat France, put 50 on them
17:04
Speaker 2: at Murrayfield. France also scored 40. But, um, they really
17:09
Speaker 2: can get away from you pretty quickly if, um, if
17:12
Speaker 2: the opportunity presents themselves. So, big teeth for the All Blacks, um,
17:16
Speaker 2: and their defensive systems this week.
17:18
Speaker 3: Yeah, indeed. Uh, The other factor in why I'd probably
17:22
Speaker 3: tip the All Blacks is inside knowledge factor. You've got, obviously,
17:29
Speaker 3: Mike Blair, the former Scottish halfback, but also Dave Rennie.
17:33
Speaker 3: He spent three years at Glasgow. I think there's 11
17:36
Speaker 3: players from Glasgow in the Scottish team. So he knows
17:40
Speaker 3: the coaching set-up well. He knows those players intimately. He
17:43
Speaker 3: brought through guys like Kyle Steyn, talked about today.
17:47
Speaker 2: Yep, Coach Hugh Jones, yeah. Exactly.
17:51
Speaker 3: He recognises the threat, he'll know Scotland's style, Scotland's players intimately,
17:57
Speaker 3: and that's got to be an advantage, doesn't it?
17:59
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it has to be. Probably there are
18:03
Speaker 2: a few players he would have coached against as well,
18:06
Speaker 2: and perhaps said, dialed in a little bit more on
18:08
Speaker 2: a regular basis than even the ones he didn't coach.
18:13
Speaker 2: So I think it is a strength for Dave Rennie
18:17
Speaker 2: to be able to tap into that.
18:19
Speaker 3: So it's Thursday here. Even on Wednesday night, Dave Rennie
18:22
Speaker 3: and Mike Blair went to a function at, I'm not
18:26
Speaker 3: sure if it was at the, it wouldn't have been
18:28
Speaker 3: at the Glasgow Rugby Club, but it was a function
18:30
Speaker 3: with their sponsors and former players. So that tells you
18:33
Speaker 3: that strong connection and intel that he has.
18:36
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, as he mentioned today as well, he's
18:39
Speaker 2: obviously coached at Murrayfield before and talked about how small
18:43
Speaker 2: the opposition coach's box is because I think Don Tricker,
18:47
Speaker 2: the NZR, a head of high performances in town and
18:50
Speaker 2: whether there was room for him. So these are places,
18:53
Speaker 2: these are grounds, these are players that he knows very,
18:56
Speaker 2: very well, albeit six or so years since he left
18:59
Speaker 2: that post and very attuned sort of coach. So what
19:02
Speaker 2: does success look like for the All Blacks? Obviously a
19:04
Speaker 2: win this week. And, you know, they'll know, obviously, what
19:09
Speaker 2: happened last year. I don't know whether Scotland's the kind
19:11
Speaker 2: of side that can be put away, but I think
19:14
Speaker 2: the All Blacks, the key to them is just delivering
19:17
Speaker 2: and continuing to build on what we saw against Australia
19:20
Speaker 2: and put those two, you know, the two of us,
19:22
Speaker 2: South Africa, in the rearview mirror as much as they
19:24
Speaker 2: can and now looking ahead and, look, banking a win
19:27
Speaker 2: to start this block of four tests will be big
19:29
Speaker 2: for them.
19:31
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think the Nations Championship, to a degree, sits
19:33
Speaker 3: on the back burner. I don't know if you, I
19:35
Speaker 3: don't think you go into a game like this talking
19:38
Speaker 3: about the need to get a bonus point to chase
19:40
Speaker 3: down the box. I think that can be parked until
19:43
Speaker 3: next week against Wales. You're right that the big shifts
19:47
Speaker 3: the All Blacks made from the South African tour to
19:49
Speaker 3: the Wallabies were the improvements in their set piece. While
19:53
Speaker 3: the scrum didn't deliver the dominance you'd probably want against
19:57
Speaker 3: the Wallabies, it was a vast improvement it was stable
20:02
Speaker 3: the line out is yet to convince but their high
20:04
Speaker 3: ball work drastically improves improve with Roy Gar kicking from
20:08
Speaker 3: the base massive step up in terms of their carry
20:11
Speaker 3: clean and physicality at the breakdown so we need to
20:14
Speaker 3: see a continuation of that because it's one thing to
20:16
Speaker 3: do it against the Wallabies but We need to see
20:19
Speaker 3: more evidence. So win and continue those improvements, I think,
20:24
Speaker 3: are the KPIs for the All Blacks in week one.
20:27
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. World Rugby is also, you know, all the
20:30
Speaker 2: coaches got together, had a meeting last Sunday, I believe
20:32
Speaker 2: it was, in London at the start of this block
20:35
Speaker 2: of test matches to, you know, focus on a few things.
20:39
Speaker 2: And I guess the proof will be in the pudding
20:42
Speaker 2: as to whether, you know, TMO intervenes less, whether that
20:45
Speaker 2: break foot's been sorted. um, all those other things that, um,
20:49
Speaker 2: often promised and, you know, often not delivered by, um,
20:52
Speaker 2: by the men in the middle. Yeah.
20:54
Speaker 3: Believe it when I say it.
20:55
Speaker 2: Yeah.
20:55
Speaker 3: Um, Dave Rennie's comment today about that was, uh, depends
20:59
Speaker 3: who the referee and TMO is.
21:01
Speaker 2: Yeah.
21:01
Speaker 3: But, but what I have liked in recent tests is the, um,
21:08
Speaker 3: the strong referees basically telling the TMOs to bugger off.
21:11
Speaker 2: Yeah.
21:11
Speaker 3: And we need to see more of that. And I
21:13
Speaker 3: was encouraged to hear Dave Rennie say that, um, there's
21:17
Speaker 3: not going to be massive shifts in the rules and
21:20
Speaker 3: the adjudication of things between now and the world cup
21:23
Speaker 3: because that was a failure of the last tournaments in
21:26
Speaker 3: terms of the policing of of red cards and the
21:29
Speaker 3: high tackles how late that was brought into the tournament
21:33
Speaker 3: the massive impact and influence that had over um different
21:37
Speaker 3: games you need to give teams time to adjust to
21:40
Speaker 3: bed into different things so we don't want to see
21:43
Speaker 3: that between now and the next world cup so it
21:46
Speaker 3: Hopefully that happens, but some referees, whether Georgian or French,
21:53
Speaker 3: can do things on a whim.
21:56
Speaker 2: Yes, they certainly can. Right, let's look at the wider
22:01
Speaker 2: context to the Nations Championship. Southern Hemisphere-wise, New Zealand go
22:07
Speaker 2: in second behind South Africa, who are first, Australia is third,
22:09
Speaker 2: Argentina fourth, Japan fifth, Fiji sixth. In the Northern Hemisphere,
22:13
Speaker 2: France are on top. Scotland second, England third, Ireland fourth,
22:16
Speaker 2: Wales fifth, and Italy in sixth. So, question for you, Liam.
22:22
Speaker 2: What position do the All Blacks finish in the southern
22:24
Speaker 2: table after the next three weeks?
22:27
Speaker 3: I think they finish second. The Springboks have named a
22:30
Speaker 3: very strong side to play a depleted Italy team this weekend,
22:35
Speaker 3: so I suspect they'll collect a bonus point there. The
22:38
Speaker 3: All Blacks probably need the box, I think, to lose
22:40
Speaker 3: to France to get to pole position next for that
22:43
Speaker 3: final um personally i don't i don't have a huge
22:49
Speaker 3: stock in making the final i just want to see
22:51
Speaker 3: the old base continue if they win all four tests
22:53
Speaker 3: and continue to improve that's enough for me.
22:55
Speaker 2: Yeah i tend to agree that the nation's championship is
22:59
Speaker 2: i think the jury's out with it's a nice to
23:01
Speaker 2: have yeah it's nice to have um sounds like it's
23:03
Speaker 2: going to be continuing um 2028 That was certainly up
23:07
Speaker 2: in the air for a little bit.
23:09
Speaker 3: Don't know where, though.
23:09
Speaker 2: Well, no, it's not going to be in Qatar, as
23:11
Speaker 2: The Guardian's reported and other sources. So it's unfortunate for
23:16
Speaker 2: those who are looking forward to going to Qatar, but
23:20
Speaker 2: it's all right. Yeah.
23:21
Speaker 3: Look, I have question marks about whether it will continue.
23:23
Speaker 3: They're saying it will, but they need to find a
23:25
Speaker 3: naming rights sponsor. And you would think nobody will reach
23:29
Speaker 3: the threshold that Qatar was willing to come in at.
23:32
Speaker 2: The political.
23:33
Speaker 3: The landscape has changed a lot since then, so the
23:37
Speaker 3: money that has been promised around this tournament is probably
23:41
Speaker 3: not going to be delivered. So it probably will continue,
23:46
Speaker 3: but it's not going to deliver what was originally expected
23:50
Speaker 3: and where... It's going to be played. Nobody really knows.
23:55
Speaker 2: No, exactly. And well, the Saudis won't want it. Live
23:58
Speaker 2: Golf's completely gone. So you can rule the Saudis out.
24:00
Speaker 2: You can rule Doha and Qatar out.
24:03
Speaker 3: Which isn't a bad thing in terms of a rugby
24:05
Speaker 3: atmosphere either.
24:07
Speaker 2: No. But if you want money into the game. Yeah.
24:10
Speaker 3: Money's not everything.
24:11
Speaker 2: No, it's not.
24:12
Speaker 3: As us journalists know.
24:14
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. Okay. So what is the final then
24:17
Speaker 2: for this nation's championship? You think South Africa will be there.
24:21
Speaker 2: So who do they face?
24:24
Speaker 3: Probably France. Where's France currently?
24:26
Speaker 2: Third. No, France is top, but they've also got to
24:28
Speaker 2: play South Africa.
24:29
Speaker 3: Yeah, but Scotland will probably drop one to the All Blacks.
24:36
Speaker 3: So I think France, South Africa final, and All Blacks,
24:44
Speaker 3: Scotland or.
24:46
Speaker 2: England. England or Ireland.
24:48
Speaker 3: It's pretty open, isn't it?
24:49
Speaker 2: It is open. I mean, the top four... Spots in
24:53
Speaker 2: the Northern Hemisphere separated by two points. France on 12,
24:56
Speaker 2: Forth as Ireland on 10. So there's a bit of
24:58
Speaker 2: movement that could happen there, whereas Southern Hemisphere looks like
25:02
Speaker 2: either one of South Africa or the All Blacks to
25:04
Speaker 2: make the final. Look, I think the All Blacks might
25:06
Speaker 2: end up being there. I think South Africa could potentially
25:09
Speaker 2: drop a game. It's been a big year for them.
25:12
Speaker 2: They put a lot of stock, as the All Blacks
25:13
Speaker 2: did as well, in that test series. I just wonder
25:17
Speaker 2: how much they can keep. getting up for the big,
25:20
Speaker 2: if they can do it again and again and again,
25:22
Speaker 2: and we know how good Rusty is as a coach,
25:24
Speaker 2: then credit to him. I just feel like maybe there
25:26
Speaker 2: is one match that they could potentially drop over the
25:29
Speaker 2: next three weeks. Let's have a look at this weekend.
25:33
Speaker 2: Starts Friday night, local time here. Ireland playing Argentina, 10
25:37
Speaker 2: past eight. That's 10 past nine, Saturday morning, New Zealand time.
25:41
Speaker 2: That's a fascinating game in and of itself with big
25:44
Speaker 2: implications for the rest of the nation's championship too.
25:47
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely. And look, the Pumas look strong. They've made
25:51
Speaker 3: a couple of changes with their coaching staff, notable ones.
25:53
Speaker 3: Sean Edwards has come in and Mariela Desma, who had
25:58
Speaker 3: success with the Pumas previously. So I think that's a
26:01
Speaker 3: vastly stronger coaching group. Ireland have a couple of injuries.
26:06
Speaker 3: They still haven't got Doris back. Jamison Gibson-Parks on the bench.
26:11
Speaker 3: Prentegast is at 12 with no Crowley.
26:16
Speaker 2: So.
26:18
Speaker 3: I think Ireland's under a lot of pressure. I've seen
26:21
Speaker 3: a lot of build-up stuff and Andy Farrell being questioned
26:24
Speaker 3: about the growing gap between Ireland and South Africa and
26:29
Speaker 3: the All Blacks and the need for Ireland to deliver
26:33
Speaker 3: at home against the Pumas. That's a real must-win fixture
26:38
Speaker 3: for them.
26:38
Speaker 2: Yeah, it feels like Ireland is searching for something and
26:41
Speaker 2: they haven't been able to put their finger on exactly
26:43
Speaker 2: what they need or how to find that that mojo
26:47
Speaker 2: that they had two or three years back. Yes, they're
26:50
Speaker 2: still a very, very good team, but there's something missing
26:53
Speaker 2: from that Irish side.
26:54
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think they probably haven't evolved enough, whether the depth.
26:59
Speaker 3: I think there's real question marks about the depth of
27:01
Speaker 3: Irish rugby. You're still hanging on to an element of
27:05
Speaker 3: ageing players. So, yeah, a lot of pressure on Ireland
27:10
Speaker 3: this November to... instill some confidence that they can be
27:14
Speaker 3: a genuine World Cup contender. They are on the softer
27:17
Speaker 3: side of the draw, so that helps them. But you
27:21
Speaker 3: think back to July when they played the All Blacks,
27:24
Speaker 3: and it was a pretty comfortable win for the All Blacks.
27:27
Speaker 2: Yes, it was. And look, Luke Jacobson obviously getting yellow carded.
27:31
Speaker 2: Maybe he should have been a red. Game could have
27:33
Speaker 2: played out a little bit differently in that regard as well. Italy,
27:37
Speaker 2: South Africa on Saturday to begin the action that day.
27:40
Speaker 2: And as you said before, the Boxers had a really
27:42
Speaker 2: strong team for that test match. Scotland, All Blacks follows.
27:46
Speaker 2: Then Wales and Japan, which will be interesting with an
27:48
Speaker 2: eye towards next week from the All Blacks. France and Fiji,
27:51
Speaker 2: 10 past 8, Saturday night here at local time. And
27:54
Speaker 2: then on Sunday, England and Australia at Twickenham, which is
27:58
Speaker 2: always a fascinating affair. wasn't so long ago the Australia
28:01
Speaker 2: won that test match when was it 24 came from behind.
28:05
Speaker 3: To was that the Suey Lee breakout.
28:07
Speaker 2: Yeah yep it was so look that's interesting Les Kiss
28:12
Speaker 2: needs a victory or you know even just a moral
28:15
Speaker 2: victory might be quite handy for Les Kiss early on
28:18
Speaker 2: in his tenure if they can go to Twickenham and
28:20
Speaker 2: pick up something there then that'll that'll spark them for
28:23
Speaker 2: the rest of the window the Australians with you know
28:26
Speaker 2: they're coming here to Scotland next week and uh, Cardiff afterwards, um,
28:31
Speaker 2: you know, that might just spark their, um, their tour.
28:33
Speaker 2: So that'll be a fascinating game, uh, on Sunday, like
28:35
Speaker 2: all time, won't it?
28:36
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, look, we've touched on the, the nation's championship
28:40
Speaker 3: and I guess the challenges around it and whether it
28:42
Speaker 3: will continue, but I do like the format and that there's,
28:44
Speaker 3: there's something on every game and it's going to build, uh,
28:48
Speaker 3: over the next three weeks towards that, that finals weekends, um,
28:52
Speaker 3: It does create a bit more meaning in these fixtures,
28:55
Speaker 3: and that Wallabies-England one is a classic example. The Wallabies
29:00
Speaker 3: get a number of players back. Not sure if it
29:03
Speaker 3: will be enough, but I'm yet to be convinced by England.
29:06
Speaker 3: I think Steve Borthwick's under massive pressure. If you think
29:10
Speaker 3: about the context of this Nations Championship, there's a potential
29:14
Speaker 3: for England to be playing as the curtain raiser on
29:19
Speaker 3: the final stay on the Sunday, and that would be
29:23
Speaker 3: real ignominy for England on their home patch to be
29:26
Speaker 3: playing the curtain raiser to a final. I don't think
29:31
Speaker 3: they'll bin Borthwick before the World Cup, but the knives
29:35
Speaker 3: would be out if that transpires.
29:38
Speaker 2: Yeah, although they binned Eddie Jones a year out from
29:41
Speaker 2: the last World Cup.
29:43
Speaker 3: It would be only six months when it's a pretty
29:45
Speaker 3: tough gig.
29:47
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean... unlikely. I think they'll stick with him
29:50
Speaker 2: through to the World Cup. But, you know, it depends.
29:53
Speaker 2: If this window goes absolutely horribly wrong, then that could
29:56
Speaker 2: be one that they potentially decide to see who's out there.
30:00
Speaker 2: I'm not sure who is out there. There are probably
30:02
Speaker 2: names that they can come up with. Scott Robinson was
30:06
Speaker 2: one of them.
30:07
Speaker 3: Yeah, he did. Borthwick, I know they beat the All
30:09
Speaker 3: Blacks last year, but that was the beginning, well that
30:12
Speaker 3: was basically the end of Scott Robertson's reign, and Borthwick
30:16
Speaker 3: just strikes me as a very uninspiring coach, I don't think.
30:20
Speaker 3: He's the guy to transform English rugby, so a massive
30:25
Speaker 3: window for... for england and ireland i think to to
30:29
Speaker 3: sort of reshape the narrative around their their their prospects for.
30:33
Speaker 2: Next year absolutely now we did get some mail as
30:36
Speaker 2: well um you can always get in touch rugby to
30:38
Speaker 2: read at news talk zb.co.nz or get in touch through
30:41
Speaker 2: other methods as well should you so wish i'm gonna
30:45
Speaker 2: read this out um bro can you please answer this
30:50
Speaker 2: question on the pod What is the go with, quote,
30:53
Speaker 2: left and right wingers in the ABs these days? These
30:56
Speaker 2: roles have been specialist down the years, e.g. Jonah Lomu,
30:59
Speaker 2: left wing at number 11, right-hand fends, meaning Ed Ball
31:03
Speaker 2: and the lefts are strong down the left-hand side. J. Kane, Goldie,
31:05
Speaker 2: right wingers with left-hand fends. Under Rennie, this doesn't seem
31:08
Speaker 2: to matter. For example, Josh Mulby, right wing for the Canes,
31:11
Speaker 2: but left for the ABs. Or is it a modern-day
31:14
Speaker 2: rugby thing? Leroy Carter is often on the left wing,
31:16
Speaker 2: but seems a natural right winger. What is the go?
31:19
Speaker 2: That is from Paddy Gower. born and raised in Taranaki
31:23
Speaker 2: and Paddy. You've got a busy weekend ahead of you
31:25
Speaker 2: with the election coverage, so appreciate you taking the time
31:28
Speaker 2: to get in touch with us. You can answer it, Liam.
31:30
Speaker 3: Good man, great friend of the pods.
31:32
Speaker 2: I think.
31:34
Speaker 3: It is the evolution of the modern game. I think
31:38
Speaker 3: wingers these days have a much more roaming commission generally.
31:42
Speaker 3: You think about, he mentioned Josh Morby, Leroy Carter, Even
31:46
Speaker 3: Fihang Anganofo plays both sides. Some wingers would have preference.
31:51
Speaker 3: You'd think about Caleb Clarke as exclusively a left winger,
31:54
Speaker 3: which probably limits him to a degree, but I think
31:59
Speaker 3: under Rennie, work rate is really important, so wingers are
32:02
Speaker 3: encouraged to roam. Will Jordan's another classic example.
32:06
Speaker 2: He's only a right winger. I've never seen him on
32:08
Speaker 2: the left.
32:09
Speaker 3: I think he has a couple of occasions, but certainly
32:11
Speaker 3: predominantly on the right. But it's a good point about
32:14
Speaker 3: the fend, the step, Most players have a favoured passing
32:18
Speaker 3: side and those sorts of things. Rika Owani probably plays left,
32:23
Speaker 3: so I think it's still there. But if you can
32:28
Speaker 3: play both sides, Corey Jane, he used to play both
32:32
Speaker 3: from memory, but had a stronger fend on one side.
32:36
Speaker 3: It enhances your value, doesn't it? So I think the
32:38
Speaker 3: evolution of the modern game, but there are still those
32:41
Speaker 3: specialists out there.
32:42
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. It's a good, it's a good question. And yeah, look,
32:45
Speaker 2: there are, yeah, it's the nature of the space and
32:48
Speaker 2: time and space on the, on the field has changed
32:50
Speaker 2: so much, even in the last 10, 15 years around
32:54
Speaker 2: what players are expected to do and how much space they,
32:57
Speaker 2: they do get. And, you know, someone like a Doug
32:59
Speaker 2: Howlett back in the day, the wing role has changed
33:01
Speaker 2: from what we expect to be from Doug Howlett 15,
33:05
Speaker 2: 20 years, or 20 years ago now from Doug Howlett to, to,
33:08
Speaker 2: to where we are now with the, the wings and,
33:10
Speaker 2: you know, developing utility players and everything like that. So, yeah,
33:15
Speaker 2: it's the modern game. I guess it's, you know, a
33:17
Speaker 2: little bit like politics. You know, the left wing, right wing,
33:19
Speaker 2: your opportunity in the middle that are potentially going to
33:22
Speaker 2: either side. So it's the evolution of things. So, Paddy,
33:25
Speaker 2: thank you very much and go well with the election
33:28
Speaker 2: coverage this weekend.
33:29
Speaker 3: Yeah, and just remember on that note that left is
33:31
Speaker 3: always best.
33:33
Speaker 2: Well, you put that out there, Liam, I will not
33:35
Speaker 2: make any further comments on the podcast in regards to
33:39
Speaker 2: that one. That's an interesting one you just throw out there.
33:44
Speaker 3: Let's just say our views are divided on that front.
33:46
Speaker 2: I wouldn't say that at all. I'm not going to
33:49
Speaker 2: say anything on that front at all, Liam. That'll do
33:53
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