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Episode 004 - Wonder in the Work · The Holy Wonder Podcast

• 0:03
  Speaker A: Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the Holy Wonder podcast, where we slow down, open the scriptures, and let God's word do what only it can do. Today we're continuing our series exploring the moments of scripture that bring us wonder. Before we get to this week's discussion, though, let's take a moment and look back at where we've been. We began this series of lessons with Job, a man who had lost nearly everything and was left with questions no one around him could answer. In the end, God did not hand Job an explanation. He gave Job himself. Then we moved to Pentecost, where God did not stay distant, but poured out his spirit and made his people a dwelling place for his presence, not just the temple that Pentecost happened in the shadow of.
• 0:48
  Speaker B: That brings us to this week into the first book of the Bible, Genesis. That that book is full of beginnings, ends, and a lot in between. One of the most notable is the story of Noah and the flood. Most of us know the outline of the story, the ark, the animals, the rain. But tucked inside it is something we often miss. Scripture calls Noah blameless in his generation. And before the first raindrop fell, God waited. He waited through a world growing darker. And he waited while an ark was built. This story is one of destruction and salvation, judgment and grace, fear and wonder, a terrible world and a faithful man.
• 1:26
  Speaker A: We're happy that you joined us today as we ask the question, what does the story of Noah and the flood tell us about the patience of God and what's so wonderful about that? My name is Neil Mathis and I'm here with my co host, Andy Yant. Let's dig in, Sam. Foreign. Hey, Andy.
• 2:28
  Speaker B: Hey, Neil.
• 2:29
  Speaker A: Really glad that we are back and I'm glad that everyone is at home listening wherever they might be. You know, this is our fourth episode, so I'm willing to declare, Andy, that we are now no longer amateurs.
• 2:42
  Speaker B: We're getting there. I'm not sure we're professionals, but maybe not quite amateurs.
• 2:46
  Speaker A: I think the professional mark is like 100 episodes. So give it some time and maybe we'll get there. A few weeks ago, when Andy and I started this podcast, we made a list of the three most significant moments in scripture for us personally that inspire awe and wonder because of either what God has done or how God is reacting or. Or sometimes even what's going on in the story from our faithful brothers and sisters of time past. We started with Andy a couple of weeks ago and a discussion of Job. We spent the better part of an hour dissecting that story. Last week we talked about Pentecost and this was my third most awe inspiring moment. Today we're talking about the story of Noah and Andy. You brought up that one of the things that you appreciated a lot about Noah's story was something you appreciated a lot about Job's story.
• 3:44
  Speaker B: God's patience, his patience with man is beyond what I can comprehend. He. He had no reason to save the earth except for one person from what we read, which we'll get into a little deeper later. But he chose to. He could wipe the slate clean and start it over. But Noah was worth saving, just as he, he believes we are today.
• 4:07
  Speaker A: There's some real hard words and hard phrases to come to terms with. In Genesis 6, when God says things like I regret that I have made
• 4:19
  Speaker B: them, that's hard to read.
• 4:21
  Speaker A: I mean, you're talking about people made in his image, Adam and Eve. I've heard people describe them as they were these like royal image bearers, you know, they were made in the image as like heirs, right? They inherited paradise. And then we messed it up. And now you get to Genesis 6 and it only looks like a few pages in our leather bound Bible. But it's hundreds and just hundreds of years and mankind has not gotten better. They're not bearing the image of God more, they're actually rejecting the image of God. And there's these moments like Enoch walking with God in chapter five and verse 24, and you've got some examples like Abel's sacrifice, where you're like, yeah, like that's the right thing. Hebrews tells us his sacrifice still speaks today. But then you get the first few verses of chapter six, man starts to multiply. The Lord says, my spirit will not abide in man forever. You have then in verse five, the wickedness of man was great, that every intention of the thoughts of their heart was evil. And that line that we just referenced, the Lord regretted that he had made man. It grieved him to this heart. And he says in verse seven, I will blot out man whom I'm created from the face of the land. Those are not easy words to read. Those are very, I'm going to use the term judgmental. Like they're full of judgment and God is pointing a finger squarely at us, like humanity. You messed up what I made perfect, what I made great.
• 5:53
  Speaker B: It's judgment, but it's judgment about facts. And that's the part I think that's hard to read in today's world. We look around and this had to have been worse. Evidently and that's hard to comprehend for me anyway.
• 6:08
  Speaker A: So you know what they didn't have that we have? They didn't have a 24 hour news cycle for sure. They didn't have access to what was going on in every corner of the world that was visible. People were not doing evil with their phone open, recording it. And so I'm not certain that the residents of that world were all aware of the evil around them. I'm just not certain of it. Scripture really doesn't give us a good hint, but it does tell us it's not impossible to avoid it and be faithful. Verse 8, Genesis 6. Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord. He was someone different, something different. And I can't help but believe that that's going to resonate today also. So we're going to set the stage early, like we try to do in each one of these lessons and dissect what is happening scripturally so that then we can apply it to our life practically. So a couple things as we begin. We're going to talk about the patience of God. And before we dig into why he was patient, can we talk about what wickedness is? It's just the opposite of godliness. And if there is a character trait you could give God, that would be godliness, right? So if it's manifested in how God loves unconditionally, if how God judges righteously, how God knows independent of anything else, he just knows he's outside of time and outside of place. He knows what's happening. So his knowledge is one of those omnis that we talked about when we were kids, you know, omniscient and omnipresent, all of these things that allows him to be the fullness of a characteristic. The New Testament talks about God is love. We sing that song the greatest commands. In fact, we sang it Sunday morning as the last song before the sermon here in Portland. So when you talk about wickedness and you talk about the world's wickedness is total. Like we just read that verse and I'll read it again for anyone at home or anyone listening. In verse 5 of chapter 6, the Lord saw the wickedness of man was great. Great. It's descriptive. It's not just random, it's great. And the second line, that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. You know, you're, you're, you're left with, I think, a picture of something that is as completely bad as God is completely good. If we talk in extremes, we talk about, you know, the colors Black and white, how opposite they are. We talk about, you know, hot and cold. They're the opposite. You know, the melting point versus the freezing point. That's the image I think you're trying to get here. At least that's the image I think the Holy Spirit is giving through Moses. It's not what God made. It's what man made. They have corrupted something that at the end of the sixth day of creation, God said is very good. And all that corruption started with one choice. And it was followed by, I would guess, by this time, millions and millions and millions of other choices that were evil.
• 9:36
  Speaker B: Andy, I've got a quick question.
• 9:39
  Speaker A: Yeah, go ahead.
• 9:40
  Speaker B: So do we sometimes recognize wickedness is things being done worse than what we're doing instead of recognizing that we do wicked things as well? I believe you mentioned it in the last couple of weeks. We recognize rich people as those that have more than us. It's kind of human nature sometimes. Do we do the same thing with wickedness? That if you're doing things worse than I am, that's wicked, but what I'm doing is just not quite right. But it's not wicked.
• 10:03
  Speaker A: Okay. Yeah, absolutely we do. Do you remember when we were kids, you just didn't want to be. You just didn't want to be the last kid that got out in dodgeball. There was always one that got out. And you're always like, well, he's worse than me. That is very relatable and practical to our life right now. And you can sit around and you can say, I'm not Andy.
• 10:30
  Speaker B: I'm not as bad as him, so I'm okay.
• 10:32
  Speaker A: Yes. Listen, Andy, a lot of people could live their life a whole lot more being more like you, and the world would be a better place.
• 10:39
  Speaker B: That's debatable, but I appreciate it.
• 10:42
  Speaker A: I'll debate you any day on it. How about that? As long as I'm better than Andy, then I can stand on my righteousness, right? I didn't make that choice. My children don't make those decisions. I don't drive that car. I don't. You get it? And it doesn't matter if it's really right or wrong. It's just a matter of my self. Righteousness can be better than your implied wickedness.
• 11:10
  Speaker B: I'm thankful that Noah didn't just want to be better than his neighbor. He wanted to be righteous. He wanted to be godly.
• 11:16
  Speaker A: And by being righteous, he was better than his neighbors, for sure. Like, he was in a way that wasn't his standard.
• 11:22
  Speaker B: His Standard was righteousness.
• 11:24
  Speaker A: That's wonderful. Like, yes, yes, yes, yes. More of that needs to be taught in our world that there's the right thing to do and it's independent upon what everyone else does. I coach a soccer team and you know that. And I think a lot of people listening know that. And throughout the course of a soccer game, there are thousands of decisions players make that are independent of the other players on the field. Am I going to make a challenge on that ball there? Am I going to defend this player here? Am I going to tell my coach I'm too tired to compete at my highest level? I need a sub? They're not making that dependent upon anyone else that that's knowledge. They possess only them. But because soccer is a game where the ball doesn't stop very often, where the 11 players on the field are working in unison but only one has the ball, they're also making a ton of decisions that are right and wrong dependent upon the people around them. So if my guy is doing this, should I be doing that? If a guy on the other team is making that move, should I be responding accordingly? A player on my team can make the right personal decision, that is the wrong team decision. They can come off the off the field and at halftime they can say, I did my job. And we can be losing three to nothing because collectively we failed. That might be a picture of their society here where you have probably not every single individual is a murderer. Every single individual is an adulterer. Every single individual is an abuser of the helpless women and children. And that's probably true. Even though the thoughts and the hearts of mankind are continually evil, that does not mean that every single one of them are equally evil. But in that crowd of wickedness, only one person stands out as righteous. And so our world, we see a lot of wickedness. And Andy, you hit the nail on the head. If we're comparatively righteous, that doesn't make us righteous. It just makes us comparatively closer to the image of God than that next person. But if I'm not really the image of God, I'm as far from it as the next person. And I want to be upfront and honest with everyone always. You're never going to be a fully formed and functioning righteous person in and of yourself. What you are is a person who's righteous in the model that God demonstrated righteousness. So that's where Jesus would say things like, take up your cross and follow me. Right? Your righteousness models his righteousness. When you self sacrifice, the apostle Paul would Say things like imitate me as I imitate Christ. Okay, so if I look like those around me, that can be good as long as they're modeling what they look like. After Christ, he would say things like, you want to be first, be last. You want to be great, be a servant. We do those things, but we don't come with an in instinctual preset pattern of goodness. It's learned. And I'll tell you why. I know that to be true. You know who the most selfish people in the world are?
• 14:57
  Speaker B: Who's that?
• 14:58
  Speaker A: Babies. Babies. Babies could care less how tired their mom and dad are. Babies could care less how hungry their mom and dad are. Babies want one thing, take care of me. And when they're not happy or they're hurting, they are going to scream their head off until someone does what takes care of them. Takes care of them, makes it better. Now none of us are going to run around and label babies as selfish, but that's what they are because they don't know better. Now as they grow into toddlers and to children, they start to become a little self sufficient, yet they still model their self sufficiency on what, what mom and dad have taught me to do. That's right in our household. And if you look kind of zoom out, well, the world is God's household. We were all brought into this as babies. And when you're reborn as a Christian, you're just a spiritual infant. And so you grow to look more like your father, more like your savior. And it's a learned behavior. It doesn't just come instinctually. And so we find ourselves in Genesis 6 looking at a world that had grown to this point. It was not made this way. And so Noah's, I guess you should say, God's patience with Noah is based not upon. He's just better than everyone else.
• 16:25
  Speaker B: He's righteous.
• 16:26
  Speaker A: He's righteous, yeah. And I would use the term, I like this, blameless in his generation. That's what appears in chapter six there in verse nine. The righteous man who's blameless in his generation is not sinless, it's just a man you can't find fault with. That blameless word is worth noting that here. It's the Hebrew word in the New Testament. The Greek word that would echo that same idea is one of the first qualities mentioned of shepherds of the church. They're to be blameless, they can't be sinless. But when you look at them, they're righteous in their generation. And you see the acts of God in the Acts of that man, how he is thought of inside of the church, what he's thought of outside of the church, in the decisions he makes, in the concern and care he has for his sheep. Like that's a beautiful illustration of what God wants us to be. And I think you could put up a big word that if we were all described as blameless, that might even be better than being described as righteous. Because righteousness kind of reflects a little self righteousness, right? Like look at me. But saying I'm blameless means I'm constantly trying to live without blame so that my choices reflect righteousness. Who I am is a reflection of righteousness, not, not I am righteousness. And then that to me kind of keeps the perspective the way it needs to be. I'm only righteous as I live godly. My standard operating procedure of selfishness is not godly, but I can learn godliness. And scripture is going to show us a big picture of that in the story of Noah. So a lot of people know, I think what we would call the outline of the story of Noah as we studied through this. Andy, were there ever any things that just kind of stuck out to you? I think you mentioned them one just a minute ago. What about that verse eight sticks out to you so much. I think we've talked about this. It's. It's who's listed there and who surprisingly isn't.
• 18:45
  Speaker B: His family, only he is listed. And that's a thought you put into my head a few months ago, actually in a sermon, not before we started this. I had always thought Noah and his wife and his three sons and their daughter or his daughter in laws were all in the same boat, pardon the expression. But everything I read and have tried to cross reference, Noah's only the one, the only one mentioned a couple of different times. It doesn't mention his family being the reason the boat needed to be built. It was him and they became part of the saved generation, if you will, because of him.
• 19:25
  Speaker A: Is it worth saying, and I'm not going to be contrary, I'm just going to say this. Does it say they were wicked?
• 19:32
  Speaker B: It does not.
• 19:33
  Speaker A: It does not. It just actually doesn't speak about them.
• 19:37
  Speaker B: So is being good enough good enough?
• 19:40
  Speaker A: Or is it just oh, is good enough good enough? What do we want to believe? Do we want to believe that Mrs. Noah, Shamham and Japheth and then their wives, do we want to believe they were faithful people?
• 19:54
  Speaker B: Of course.
• 19:56
  Speaker A: Is there any reason to think they weren't?
• 19:59
  Speaker B: No.
• 20:00
  Speaker A: But it's worth pointing out here that they're not mentioned. I want to be people who are. Are very honest with what scripture says. And there's a lot of. I would use this term. There's a lot of blanks. We fill in unintentionally. We just do it. You know, we think, well, there were eight people on the boat, so those eight people all had to be the faithful of this generation. I'm not going to demean their character, and I know you're not either. And so we'll leave this as a I don't know. But it is an I don't know. Noah is put up as this great example of faithfulness and righteousness and blamelessness. And his wife and his children and his son's wives are not. There's not a great picture of them after the flood when it comes to their righteousness as one of the boys being separated for his looking upon his father in a pretty compromising circumstance. But no matter how we run from this, this is not going to be a doctrinal issue that we have to have an answer for today, where we're like, well, you're only righteous if you believe. You're just not going to stay there. But I think it's worth pointing out, and I love that you brought it up. There's something I want to read. There's a wonderful commentary on Genesis called the Epic of God. It was written by Michael Whitworth. You can find it on Amazon. And I will do my best to put a link to the this at the show's notes. But there's something he says about Noah here that sticks out. And I love how he says it just about Noah, and all these things are true. He says the patriarch, that's Noah, is characterized as righteous and blameless in his human and divine relationships. So that means how he interacts with the world, how he interacts with God is both of these things. In the Old Testament, the word blameless seems to carry the concept of unknown, unimpeachable integrity. It appears dozens of times to actually describe an animal that was sacrificed. We use the term in the English translation. It is without blemish. The former term is the most general Hebrew term to describe good people. So by righteous, he's a good guy. In a world of bad guys, he's a good guy. By being blameless in a world where everyone is ugly, like, they're spotted, right? They're muddy, they're stained, he's without blemish. In some, Noah's contemporaries have no excuse to criticize his conduct. He stands Alone in his generations, like some single tree, green and rising above a forest of fallen and fire dinged pine trees, like his great grandfather Enoch. It is even said that Noah walked with God. And so while Noah's virtue did not make him worthy of deliverance, what the reader is led to believe is that it played some part in his divine selection. I love the idea of that because here's what it says that matches really well with what the New Testament says about us. We haven't earned our right into heaven, just as Noah did not earn his right into the ark. It was God's grace that gave Noah the instructions. As it is God's grace that gives us the instructions to, you would say, build our own safe haven of passage through this world. I find it very fitting that you go to Hebrews 11 and it talks about Noah built that boat to save his family. In that same way we would think, well, my faith is, is built to last beyond my generation. I want my children to see my faith as something that is repeatable. I definitely can attach to that with my mom and dad, with my grandparents, it's repeatable across generation. Now we all can manifest it a little different. My father was not a preacher. My grandfathers were not preachers. And if Max doesn't want to be a preacher one day and he wants to be a lineman or cut hair, I fully support whatever he wants to do. And so faith does not have to be demonstrated the same to be valued the same. And Noah could demonstrate his faith amongst his generation. Maybe his sons couldn't. Doesn't mean they didn't possess. Doesn't even mean that they didn't possess it to the same ability or maybe say magnitude he did, but scripture doesn't tell us they did. And I love that you bring that up because if we're gonna truly explore scripture and all the things that bring wonder to us, though, we have to acknowledge that there's some things they leave a little bit of we just don't know. And I've grown comfortable, Andy, much later in my life in my ministry work of saying I don't know right now, because the answer's not given. One day, if we need to know, we'll know.
• 25:00
  Speaker B: I think we need to be a little more willing to accept I don't know, instead of beating a point to try to make a point that we're right or we're wrong or this is definitely it. Sometimes we, we take things too far when we just don't know, but we want to know and we convince ourselves we have to know. And in reality, we don't. We can read what it says, and that should be good enough. And sometimes the answer is, I don't know.
• 25:25
  Speaker A: So we can sit here today and we can confidently say Noah is a righteous man, very blameless in his generation, and that when he built this boat, his children sure seemed to be a part of the construction, sure seemed to be a part of everything that's going on. But we're left not knowing for certain how much they were a part of anything, particularly how much they were a part of the grace that God gave. And they could have merely been, like you said, recipients of that grace because of their father, and I would use the term there, they were the unintended recipients of it. You know, we talk about collateral damage only as a negative thing. There's also collateral blessings when you're good to me, Andy, or I'm good to you by extension. I'm also being good to your family, and you're also being good to mine. And your family can be a recipient of the blessing I give because of you, and my family could be a recipient you give because of me. They definitely received God's grace, but Noah didn't earn it. Neither did they. God was patient and granted it because that world that was wicked had in it an example of faithfulness. And so for us today, we just take everything forward and we just make the easy analogy that's there. In a world where the thoughts of man or evil continually. I can find favor in the eyes of the Lord if I am a righteous man who is blameless in my generation. And the instructions God can give me to save my family can save my family when this world ends, just like it did Noah's when his world ended. Like, that's the. That is the carbon copy Bible class. When we're in second grade, we learn, but. But it's still true. And it rings as true as deep as we dig into the story or as shallow as we cover it. He was a righteous man in a wicked generation. And God had grace for the righteous man. And alongside of that grace for the righteous man, there was grace for that righteous man's family. And, you know, over the course of the years they built it. The New Testament tells us he was a preacher, a herald of righteousness, the ESV uses. I'm certain, even though I cannot prove it, but I'm certain of this, that at least one person asked him what he was doing.
• 27:53
  Speaker B: I have very little doubt.
• 27:55
  Speaker A: And that at least one person, he said, the Lord's going To destroy this world. This boat will save us. If that conversation was had, then I'm also pretty certain that he invited them to join them on the boat. And I'll stand up here and I would not put my hand on a Bible and tell you that I know it happened, but I'm certain it happened. I'm just certain it had to have. And I don't want to project that. I just want to believe that. That Noah saw what was coming and warned everyone he could. Hey, this boat is not just some eyesore. This boat has purpose. Because the world was wicked and God's judgment was true. And Noah believed it when no one else did. Something that stuck with me this week, the hundred years particularly, maybe even the 120 years mentioned there in verse three of chapter six. It's sometimes thought of like, it's like a window of time. In particular, think about a human lifespan now. 120 years for us would be quite a lifespan for them. Not really. Noah was several hundred years old when he went to build the boat. And I can't quite grasp how different time was for them versus us. I know as human beings, they were still measured by time. I know that they still had a 24 hour day. They still had a 365 day year. But I'm curious if I told you Today you've got 20 weeks to learn how to make a great hamburger, Andy. I mean, I want the best hamburger ever. And we'll review it on the show and I'll describe it with every vivid detail I can. What are you gonna do for the next 20 weeks? Are you gonna start tomorrow?
• 30:04
  Speaker B: I would hope I would, but I don't know if I would. Probably not, to be honest.
• 30:09
  Speaker A: We both know you're going to Branson tomorrow.
• 30:11
  Speaker B: I am. And I doubt I'm gonna take a hamburger cookbook with me.
• 30:15
  Speaker A: Are you gonna. You think you're gonna scroll through whatever social media platform you choose and be like, great hamburger recipes, or are you gonna go on vacation with your wife and enjoy your time in Branson and say, as we all would say, I'll get back to that when I get home.
• 30:30
  Speaker B: In today's world, my phone would pop up hamburger stuff so it would know I needed to look at it. But I probably wouldn't get very diligent until several weeks down the road.
• 30:38
  Speaker A: Like, I'm picturing how if I said, okay, did I give you 20 days? I think I said, let's say I gave you 20 days. I think I said that.
• 30:46
  Speaker B: I think it's a 20 weeks.
• 30:47
  Speaker A: 20 weeks, man. You really have plenty of time. Over the course of those 20 weeks, man, how many hamburgers could you sample?
• 30:54
  Speaker B: A lot.
• 30:55
  Speaker A: You know, you could be like, I have Learned in these 20 weeks what a good hamburger tastes like. Does that mean you'd know how to make a good one?
• 31:04
  Speaker B: Not necessarily. I just know what I want.
• 31:06
  Speaker A: You know what you want. That's right. Of all the details in the story, that sticks out to me is the time it took to build the ark. I believe it's a very safe assumption to say that this was no easy task, despite what Hollywood would say. I'm not certain there were rock monsters that came to help him. And if God did intervene with some kind of a miraculous ability, we're not told that. So believing Noah was just a normal person like us, that he wasn't given the strength of Samson, believing that Noah was very similar to us, that God gave him the blueprints and he wrote it down. And given that Noah was like us, 120 years is a long time. Is it possible that that period of time represents something that's bigger than us? It's not just the time Noah needed to build it. It was the time God gave Noah to build it.
• 32:08
  Speaker B: And I don't. From what we're told, Noah doesn't know how long he has. He doesn't get the luxury of knowing he's got 20 weeks or 120 years.
• 32:19
  Speaker A: The forecast of when it's going to happen is not given that we're seeing ex.
• 32:23
  Speaker B: So, I mean, that's one of the things that I had thought about was it was patient obedience. Not just obedience, because he didn't know if it was 20 weeks, 20 years, 120 years. But he built and he continued to build.
• 32:38
  Speaker A: There's a great line, it comes from chapter 6, verse 22. After God gives all the instructions, right? And we always focus on the instructions of, you know, it's the size of a football field and it's three, three stories, and it's got a door and it's got all this. My favorite line in all of that is verse 22. After God gives him all the instructions, it says, noah did this. It said that he did it, and he did all that. God commanded him. He didn't leave a detail out. I think in 20 weeks, you could make me a pretty good hamburger.
• 33:12
  Speaker B: I would try.
• 33:13
  Speaker A: You were given all the details from the great chefs of American cuisine. You were able to ship in the highest quality wagyu beef from Japan. You got this perfectly just buttered and baked roll for me to eat it on. Like you could make a hamburger, Andy. I'm certain of it. That would rival Michelin star chefs across the world. If you got started on it and if you made that your job. This is my task. I'm going to do this and I'm going to put everything else diligently trying to diligently try. So that tells me that the boat didn't build itself. Neither does a great hamburger. And so there's so many things at play here. God's grace is the reason Noah's righteousness is rewarded. Noah's righteousness does not earn him the grace, but it gives God an opportunity to bestow a gift upon a willing recipient. And when Noah receives the grace which. The grace is the instruction, right? The grace is the instruction. Today, the grace for us is the instruction in Scripture, repent and be immersed for the forgiveness of your sins. That's the grace. We're told what to do to be pleasing to God. Live faithfully unto death and I will give you a crown of life. That's the grace. Here's what to do. Be transformed. Don't be conformed to the world. The grace God gave Noah are these instructions and then the time that came with it. To do what? To build the ark. Build the ark. So you and I live right now, Andy, just like everyone listening in the midst of God's grace. Because I have a beat in my heart and I have a breath in my lungs, and I have a mind that can read God's word. And I have been told what to do to save myself and those closest to me. When the day of judgment arrives, which is what the rain represents, it just represents day of judgment. Now, day of judgments appear throughout Scripture. The prophets are full of them. And one day we may talk about the difference between the capital letter day of judgment at the end of time and the slower case days of judgment that happened to us every day. His story is this great, perfect, just illustration of God's grace bestowed upon a willing and a blameless recipient. Here are your instructions. Here are your expectations. Here is what I want you to do, because I want you to be saved. Even though God saw the wickedness of the world, even though he regretted that phrase in verse eight. But Noah found favor is still true today, right? We might say that was true of every generation. But someone found favor in the eyes of the Lord and were given all they needed. So when God was patient waiting in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, We get this emblem of what grace looks like. Now, Peter would talk about that in his first letter in the New Testament about how the ark being built during a time of God's just patience being illustrated. He's just waiting. He could have brought the rain at any time. He could have destroyed the world at any time. But he waited. Waited for Noah and his family to be safe is just this beautiful picture of what's happening in our life right now. And I think that that might be what is the most wonderful part of this story. Not the size of the boat, not the time. Excuse me. Not the time spent on the boat. Not even all the mass chaos and destruction of the flood. The most wonderful thing, the thing that you can stand most in awe of from my point of view, is the living, breathing embodiment of grace.
• 37:33
  Speaker B: And that grace goes while he's watching the ark being built and the earth is not getting any more righteous.
• 37:40
  Speaker A: I love it. You brought that up earlier. It's not.
• 37:42
  Speaker B: We have no obvious evidence that anyone else did any better. I mean, it would still remain Noah and his family. And 100 years of more patience, of just continuing to watch, the unrighteousness would be there again, unimaginable for us to endure. But God's grace did as he does with us today.
• 38:04
  Speaker A: Yeah. You know, turn the news on. Every day the world gets worse, right?
• 38:10
  Speaker B: It appears that way. It does, but it's not necessarily reality. But it appears that way because of what you mentioned earlier with media and social media. And we hear things on the other side of the world five minutes after
• 38:20
  Speaker A: they happen, and we get this impartial view of humanity because the only view you get is the one you're very carefully. You very carefully have created. Social media is an echo chamber. We only watch the television shows that tend to agree with us. And the news that resonates with us most is the news we feel connected to, not always the news that's truthful. And in a world now where conspiracy theories are big business, you know, you can find a world where you are clouded from the truth that feels very truthful to you. And the world can seem like a terrible place. And you've missed out on the fact that your neighbor. Your neighbor's a great person and that your neighbor is one of the methods through which God is bringing grace to your life. Because they're patient with you and you don't deserve it because all you do is hate their political party signs they put up that disagree with you or their children because they play on a rival soccer team or their Whatever. Yeah, I think that's really worth pointing out that the world did not improve, but Noah remained faithful, as God's grace in his waiting for the job to be done is so clearly seen. I find that to be so fascinating. And I think that is a great point for us to stop for just a minute. We'll take a break and we come back. I think what we can really do is dig into how this patience of God unfolds in our lives. Thank you for listening. We'll be back in next the A minute. Welcome back, everyone. It's time for us to finish our discussion of Noah and the circumstances around the flood by bringing it to 2026. Now, a lot of our conversation, Andy, has been about how Noah's story is a great parallel for us. We are trying to build a boat to save our family. The world around us is full of a lot of bad things. And God's grace is evident in our life, while we still have a moment before the day of judgment to do what he asked. So let's bounce a little bit now and talk about the character of God, because there's gonna be some critics that arise and say, how could a good and loving God destroy the world full of people who are. And then they're gonna add a lot of qualifiers, right? They're gonna talk about the children, Obviously they're innocent. They're gonna talk about the handicapped, obviously they're innocent. And they're gonna say, how could the God of Noah who saves this man kill those innocent alongside of the guilty?
• 41:51
  Speaker B: Well,
• 41:54
  Speaker A: justice is hard. It always has been. Judgment's even worse. We think of justice as the righteous follow through of laws that are understood. A criminal commits a crime. What is just, he goes to jail. Judgment is a little different because judgment doesn't lie in the right and wrongness of it, Andy. Judgment lies in the conviction of it. And the judge casts a judgment after the person is already guilty. And so that's where you get some famous lines like, I throw myself at the mercy of the court, right? Please be kind to me. And there are some judges in our world that practice grace. There are some judges that don't. All of those are built upon the picture of God as the ultimate judge, the one who knows us both in and out, the one who sees in secret and the one who sees in public. And a lot of people look at these moments in scripture, Andy, and they have a hard time with the God who brings the rain and the God who brings the flood who saves only eight. But do we get caught up on the number eight and miss that they were saved. Do we get caught up on the number? I don't know how many people died that day? 2 million. And we miss the point that the eight were saved. New Testament talks about there are. There's a broad way that leads away from God. There's a narrow way that leads to Him. Scripture does not paint a picture of a world where everyone gets a get out of jail free card at the end of time, that the Lord is a righteous judge who will render to everyone, and I use this word as loosely as I can, what they have deserved. Christians, people of faith throughout the Old Testament don't deserve their home in heaven one day. But because of Christ's death on the cross, their sins are forgiven. Those people will still be held accountable for having done what God asked them to do for the sacrifice of Christ to be fully working on them. The Old Testament people were to follow the law to the best of their ability. And their physical sacrifices were a shadow of Jesus. Permanent sacrifice. We who look back sacrifice our own self. The through our burial and baptism with him, we die and rise a new creation remade in his image and live our life to the best of his expectations for both character inside and out. Who we are inwardly and outwardly, how we interact with the world, how we worship, how we participate in kingdom living. All of that is stuck to the standing before God on the day of judgment and being seen innocent. Right.
• 45:07
  Speaker B: Okay.
• 45:09
  Speaker A: So does the story of Noah reflect poorly upon God?
• 45:15
  Speaker B: I do not believe that's possible. But if you look back in Genesis 6, verses 5, it says the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. I believe at some point everybody has their limits. And maybe this was God's limit. And he also during the time of the ark we talked about a few minutes ago when it was being built, you know, close to 100 years or so passed and that there's no indication that things got better. God's grace is beyond anything we deserve. But he sent His Son because there will be judgment one day. Without having judgment, His Son didn't need to come and to die.
• 46:05
  Speaker A: That's right. That's right. You know, if there's no sin, there's no need for death. Right? If there's no sin, there's no need for a sacrifice, there's no sin. There's no need for separation to be fixed and the reunion to happen. A couple verses I think are worth considering. Exodus 34. There's a wonderful line that comes from God there in Exodus 34, Moses the new tablets, you remember the first tablets were broken, the new tablets with God's law on it. Exodus 34, verse 5. It says, the Lord descended in the cloud and stood with him there. That's Moses, proclaimed the name of the Lord. And the Lord passed before him and said, the Lord the Lord, a God, merciful and gracious, slow to anger, abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness, who keeps steadfast love for thousands, who forgives iniquity and transgression and sin, but who will by no means clear the guilty, but rather visits the iniquity of the fathers and the children and the children's children to third and fourth generation. Moses quickly bowed his head towards the earth and worshiped the God who said that, the God who spoke that. He said, if I have now found favor in your sight, O Lord, please let the Lord go in the midst of us, for we are a stiff necked people. Pardon our iniquity and our sin and take us for your inheritance. There's a lot in that passage that we could unpack and unwind. What I want to stick to is this is the God that casts judgment is also the God who forgives iniquity. Both of those things are also relevantly seen in Noah's story. God is casting judgment, but he's also forgiving iniquity, right? And he gave them time for that iniquity to be forgiven. And that generation didn't want forgiveness. That generation rejected forgiveness. That generation said God's grace is unnecessary. And so I have always thought of justice is what you deserve, you deserve it. Judgment is what you, you, you receive. And a criminal can get parole, a criminal can be rehabilitated. A criminal is not defined by that one moment. But the justice they received is based upon that one moment should be. But their judgment for their whole life isn't bound up in that one thing. I've said this before to people and I'll say it here. I don't know if this is the first time, but it won't be the last time. But I thank God every day that I am not judged eternally upon one moment when I was a 17 year old boy, or one moment when I was a 26 year old man, or one moment when I'm a 45 year old father. In my one moment, the Justice I can deserve is death. But the judgment God gives me is not based upon that one moment. God's patience is something we should live in awe of it's illustrated here greatly. But our Life. I've had 45 years to get what's right. And if I'm blessed with another 35 years, I will have lived a long life. And I would like to think at 80, that the thing I would see most real in my life is how much grace God had given me to make it to 80, to have learned as much as I did about him, and to live in the goodness of who he is. My wife's favorite song, and probably one of my favorites, is the Goodness of God. And the lyrics of that song are pretty poignant. All my days he has been faithful. All my days he has been so, so good. For I have lived in the presence of God. I have lived in the goodness of God. Noah could say that all. All of Noah's days, the Lord was faithful. And he lived in a world where that was so obvious to him but unclear to everyone else. I think maybe you and me and a lot of the people listening to this would have that in common with Noah today. All our days, God has been patient with us and good to us. And all our days, the world around us has not seen it.
• 50:44
  Speaker B: And we don't always pass that patience along to others as we should.
• 50:48
  Speaker A: We do not. We do not. And that's part of the frustration that if you told me Noah had while he was building the boat, I would believe you. If there was a day where Noah said, this job is too big for me, I would believe it. If there was a day where Noah said, I'm tired of doing this, I would believe it. If there was ever a day where Noah despaired and had doubt, is this worth it? I would believe it. I am grateful they're not there. But like any other person in this world, I would believe those days are possible. I would even believe it if you told me there was a day where even though God had spoken directly to Noah, that he doubted it would ever happen. I don't mean to demean his character. I just want to connect to his experience. And I think if I was given 100 years to do something, there'd be a day I despaired. There'd be a day I doubted he was still human. Yeah, he was human. And we. We make these characters out to be superhuman, and they're not. And that's why the moments of character flaw, like when he gets off the ark, plants the vineyard, offers the sacrifice. Wonderful. But then goes and gets drunk. Noah's allowed to be a human being and still a recipient of God's grace. Noah's allowed to make mistakes and need forgiveness of those mistakes. I love the passage that we just read from Exodus. The God who brings judgment to one generation after the next, after the next, after the next is also the one who grants the forgiveness of sins. There's another passage worth looking at. Psalm 103, verses 8 and 10. And I'm going to read this for everyone. The Lord is merciful and gracious. He is slow to anger, abounding and steadfast love. He will not always chide, nor will he keep his anger forever. For he does not deal with us according to our sins, nor repay us according to our iniquities. That last verse in particular is like, if you write in your Bible, you should just write next to it. This is grace. He does not repay us what we have deserved. And in the story of Noah, I think, Andy, it's really easy for us to marvel at Noah's righteousness. I just want to be like Noah, a man who is blameless in my generation, yeah, I do. But don't ever make the mistake that that's what saved him. Now, his righteousness was the catalyst that allowed God's grace to be carried out. But it's God's grace that saved him. It's God's plan that saved him. And the God who gave grace to Noah is the one that gives grace to us. And the God who had a plan for Noah is the one who has a plan for us. And I'm in awe of that. Because the flood is not a departure of God's character. It's actually the revelation of his character, that he is a God who must uphold righteousness, but also the God who grants graciousness. And as he declares himself slow to anger, as the psalmist says, he does not deal with us according to our sin. Then we get this picture of how the flood is still our story today. And like Noah, you and I are building a boat to save our family. And one day our sons will build boats to save their families. And our families built boats to save us. And we are building as big a boat as possible. That's what you'd call the kingdom of God. And we are. We know there's a rainy day coming, and we don't know when, but we know that God's grace will not. Will not run out before that day. But that's the day where God's grace comes to an end in this world. There was a day when Noah and his family got on that boat and the door was sealed and no one could get on it. And then God's grace at that point for that world was done. And then after the time in the flood and the new world began, God's grace began all over again. You know, but that group of family that survived that day of judgment were the only recipients of God's grace on that day. Now you and I, as descendants of Noah, are long term recipients of that grace. I hope one day that when this world ends, that the thought that all of those who are in heaven will be very similar to the thought of Noah and his family on that boat. Look at all the despair around us, look at all the loss around us. And we are safely tucked right where God wanted us to be because his grace was patient with us. And the God who is outside of this room bringing judgment to the world is the one who by grace built this room for us. And so I think that at the end of the day is the purpose of patience, that it is how God illustrates his grace to us. Peter talks a lot about that. How God is patient, doesn't want anyone to perish, but all to reach repentance. Paul says that it's God's kindness that leads us to repentance in Romans 2. Because that kindness is illustrated in that patience and in that generosity in that good old King James Version word in his long suffering, which connects, I think, wonderfully to your illustration and your image earlier of the world didn't get better. God still kept suffering, right? You know, his. His heart was heavy, he was grieved, he kept suffering as Noah built the boat.
• 56:59
  Speaker B: He stayed patient because of Noah's blamelessness, righteousness, and continuing to do what was supposed to be done.
• 57:06
  Speaker A: So he's long suffering now also, right? In a world that is still evil. And you and I are building boats. We're boat builders. We're ship builders, right? I'm gonna stop short of calling us Gloucestermen who go out onto the north seas and fish and bring it back. But there's a lot to connect to. I'm so grateful that this is one of the stories that you were like, hey, we should talk about this one. Because I'm in awe of, much like the story of Job, how God was patient with a flawed man who was still blameless in his generation. And if Job and Noah can be flawed men, blameless in their generation, then there's hope for me, and there's hope for you, and there's hope for all of our listeners. Because man to be flawed like Job and Noah, you can still be a recipient of God's grace.
• 58:05
  Speaker B: God's grace and Jesus blood.
• 58:07
  Speaker A: That's right. And both of those allow us, at the end of our experience, like Job and Noah, to find deliverance and blessing. I love this story and I'm glad we've spent time talking about it. Andy, we gotta make sure we circle all the wagons, cross all the T's, dot all the I's. My friend, is there anything we could have possibly left out that you wanted to make sure we talked about today?
• 58:33
  Speaker B: I think we covered it all. My big takeaway for me personally is don't underestimate what you can do and the example you can have for your family. And make sure we're building our own arcs like you just said, and not just for our families, hopefully others. We can make a difference, and NOAA made a difference in the entire world and the future of the world, and we can make a difference in our part of the world.
• 58:58
  Speaker A: You know, there's an urban legend. I don't know how true it is, but the story goes that back at the turn of the early 1900s, there was a gospel meeting that came through a small town in the south. And the preacher left a little disappointed because there was only really one family that converted, a husband and a wife. And that preacher often talked about how that was one of the worst gospel meetings, campaigns, whatever type of old language they would have used to describe it. Right. But years later, he met the child of that couple who was a very successful gospel preacher who all across the south and all across America had been instrumental in the message that was preached and souls that were saved. And that preacher told that older preacher, your meeting was a success because it saved my mom and dad. And that led to my home, that led to my salvation and led me to want to be a preacher and make a difference like you did for my family. Sometimes success is not measured in the number of people saved. It's numbered in the impact of the people saved. Only eight people survived the ancient destruction of our world. Yet every one of us are here today. And we have the message of Christ because those eight people were saved. So you talked about saving your family. Saving my family. Well, what difference might it make to the world if your family is saved? It might be life changing.
• 1:00:45
  Speaker B: Very well, could be.
• 1:00:48
  Speaker A: What if my son, and I'm just going to use Max as an example, becomes 25 times the preacher I am one day? And he doesn't have to do it from a pulpit. He could do it from a soccer field, or he could do it from a stage. What if he becomes that preacher I never got to be. Well, I would say then the work I spent on my family to save those five individuals then might change the world. Now, I know that that's kind of a little grandiose here, and I'm not actually expecting any of that, but that's the story of Noah.
• 1:01:25
  Speaker B: We never know what will happen to the seeds we plant, but we have
• 1:01:28
  Speaker A: to keep planting them, maybe in this time in the boards that we lay and fasten together. In the boards that we lay together and fasten together. Well, Andy, I've had a wonderful time talking about Noah's story. I hope you have, too.
• 1:01:41
  Speaker B: It has been wonderful.
• 1:01:42
  Speaker A: I hope that this has been a real blessing for everyone who's listening. If you're in your car or you're at home, you can do two things to help us out. Go visit our website, www.holywonderhub.com. there you're going to find these episodes. You can also follow us at some point in the near future on Apple Podcasts and on Spotify. I'd encourage you to go check all of that out. The thing you can do to help us the most is to tell people, I heard these two guys talking and they, well, they blessed me and I think they should bless you. We love the Bible and we love the stories that we find in it, and we love being able to talk about it and to be able to see the wonder of God in them. We hope you do, too. That's why we're here today. And we hope that that's why you've been here. And we hope that you leave and you see the wonder of God in your life everywhere you possibly go. I'm Neal Mathis. My co host, Andy Yant. We're so very thankful that you listened. We hope you'll join us again soon. This is the Holy Wonder Podcast.
• 1:03:02
  Speaker B: Sa.